The Identity of Penance (Possible Spoilers) [Archive]

TotalWorldDomination

12-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Possible Spoilers Ahoy!

Ok, so in the previews for the NEW new thunderbolts they have a "mystery character" named Penance. We've learned precious little about this character except that his origin is linked to Stamford and that his powers are based on pain (hence the Iron Maiden outfit- he has to hurt himself to use powers).

Based on this dose anyone get the feeling that Penance is Robbie "Speedball" Baldwin? The only times he's used his powers since Stamford have been during boxing and after getting shot, so that seems to confirm the pain=power thing, and after the front line where he got shot, he appears to have finally succumb to the overwhelming guilt that he should have had all along.

Do you think this could be right? And if so, could Robbie's transformation affect the civil war in any way?

Magneto Rocks

12-08-2006, 05:30 PM

There has indeed been much speculation about this very thing!

I'd bet on it, myself.

PatchMadripoor

12-08-2006, 05:59 PM

I rememer one of the New Warriors Annuals when Robbie was having his pwers tested, and his bounce power comedically drawn with him in spikes, to impale and shred as he went along.

I like the Penance concept, and think this is a darker, more realistic application of that.

Too bad about Generation X's Penance. I liked her, too.

patch

12-08-2006, 06:50 PM

i hope not...because i would like to see better things for the new robbie than for him to except being the biggest scapegoat in marvel history.

i prefer robbie with backbone and standing up for himself.

Haunt

12-08-2006, 06:52 PM

drwho

12-08-2006, 06:54 PM

No one wants to read a comic book about Speed ball brooding and being goth. No way is it him. I still am gonna put a vote for his mysterious cell mate.

LordEd1976

12-08-2006, 07:20 PM

drwho

12-08-2006, 07:25 PM

I said in an earlier thread that I thought I saw the fact that Robbie was Penance spoiled in the Bibliography to the Marvel Universe website. Alas, shortly after I saw it, that little spoiler disappeared.

If that is the case someone find the proof cus no way do i plan on paying for a pos like that. I would be waiting for the Thunderbolts to be canceled before letting them further gut out the character of Speed Ball.

TotalWorldDomination

12-08-2006, 07:32 PM

I said in an earlier thread that I thought I saw the fact that Robbie was Penance spoiled in the Bibliography to the Marvel Universe website. Alas, shortly after I saw it, that little spoiler disappeared.

Did it say when he turns? Cause with 2 issues left to go, a Creepy evil Robbie could make for some good scenes...

And if not in the main series, at the very least it would be nice to see him go bonkers in frontline.

captain_unimpressive

12-11-2006, 03:18 PM

Here's a question I thought of as I was reading a Ghost Rider discussion: What if GR used the Penance Stare, which (correct me if I'm wrong) sends the (physical and emotional) pain of all humans a person has killed straight through their synapses, on Penance himself? Would the pain increase his power?

(Considering that Robbie would feel the entire Stamford Incident, let's hope not)

Phrozen

12-11-2006, 03:22 PM

Robbie is not responsible for Stamford. Nitro is. Nitro is the only one responsible. To say otherwise is to totally ignore what was presented in the book.

Wild Card13

12-11-2006, 03:23 PM

I think Robbie's change into Penance is highly unrealistic. it's just got nothing to do with his history as a character. he was a punk kid with a very light build. how did he become a hulking brute in a pulp-fiction-gimp costume?

Well, they did put a deaf she-Taskmaster in a male ninja suit, so...And like everyone says, if you want to go realistic, how realistic is the idea of radiation from another dimension giving someone bouncing powers and a spiffy costume?

I think it's obvious because of the meaning behind the word Penance. That said, I almost hope Penance and Speedball aren't one and the same.

IamtheRock3

12-11-2006, 03:42 PM

well If Speedball looking for redemtion

I doubt he be on a team filled with people who tried to hunt and kill his friends

Who currently hunting his friend due to a Law. That his Dumb butt partly inspired

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 05:05 AM

Atom_basher

01-04-2007, 05:19 AM

i actually HATE the idea, and cant wait for the day he is liberated from that crappy armor

where did u get this info from though?

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 05:20 AM

i actually HATE the idea, and cant wait for the day he is liberated from that crappy armor

where did u get this info from though?

i got civil war frontline, are comics late everywhere, i think?

Atom_basher

01-04-2007, 05:22 AM

i got civil war frontline, are comics late everywhere, i think?

ah i dont buy my comics until the end of the week. so thats really the explanation? man talk about a drastic change

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 05:26 AM

ah i dont buy my comics until the end of the week. so thats really the explanation? man talk about a drastic change

i know, personally i happy just because warren ellis will make this guy important now,

all for a good story to me,

Atom_basher

01-04-2007, 05:31 AM

the whole pain freak s&m aspect really disturbs me, not because the nature of the powers, but because it seems so drastic and out of left field especially associated with a nice guy like speedball

patch

01-04-2007, 06:17 AM

wheres a picture of the comicbook guy when you need one..."worst idea ever"

so basically..we get no trial for speedball, nobody is actuallly held accountable for stamford since robbie works for s.h.e.i.l.d and no one cares about nitro or what happened to him, no actual legal test for the shra and the new warriors are officially scapegoated as murders with no one to speak up for them...

but atleast we get speedy the gimp. :rolleyes:

someone, please stop my head pain.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 06:26 AM

Have faith. Ellis can pull it off.

Atom_basher

01-04-2007, 06:26 AM

drwho

01-04-2007, 06:42 AM

Is frontline over yet? Did they ever get to explainning who Speedballs weird roommate was or was he just some pointless cell mate? I'm dropping thunderbolts if this is in fact true. I'm not buying this version of Speedball.Everyone else should do the same and then the book will be cancelled and they will restart it again with a more traditional team.

Jmacq1

01-04-2007, 06:45 AM

Great, Speedball's a psycho now.

Honestly, I could care less about the character before Civil War.

Now I actually -do- care less. But I didn't plan on buying Ellis' Thunderbolts anyway.

The real question is: Does this mean Squirrel Girl will become "Pain Lass?"

gary

01-04-2007, 06:46 AM

I want the fun loving, bouncy, Squirrel Girl romancing Speedball, rather than this thing!

I was planning to drop T-Bolts with Fabian's last issue and this just makes it certain.

Shyft

01-04-2007, 07:17 AM

I like the idea behind Penance. I was completely dissinterested in Speedball. If i wanted goofy jokey characters, id go read a slap-stick comic. Now he is at least a bit interesting, and i am looking forward to T-Bolts #110.

Alan2099

01-04-2007, 07:42 AM

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 07:47 AM

I'l never understand people who claim characters aren't intresting unless they're hyper violent or extremely depressing.

It still amazes me. Civil War hit rock bottom right from the get go and somehow it still manages to keep getting worse.

Who says he'll stay a villain?

speedball has a new lease of life now.

Does anyone trust warren ellis? i ask.
i do

trickster

01-04-2007, 07:48 AM

Miss Kitty Fantastico

01-04-2007, 07:54 AM

The real question is: Does this mean Squirrel Girl will become "Pain Lass?"
Perhaps - if Robbie's new powers need pain to activate, maybe Squirrel Girl will become an expert sadist to help out. I shouldn't think that's hot, but...

(She could practise on Mr. Immortal until she gets the hang of non-lethal damage.)

Sijo

01-04-2007, 08:18 AM

Does anyone trust warren ellis? i ask. Oh, I trust him. I trust him to write stories about violence or gross humor. It's what he's been doing all along. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not buying them. It's all I say.

As for Robbie, if he is indeed Penance, then this is the worst example of character assassination I've ever seen. Why twist a character into totally the opposite of what he was meant to be? Why not just create a new one? Is Marvel going the DC way, with no more humorous characters, just gloom and doom? (And no, mean-spirited humor ala Nextwave is not what I'm talking about.) If so, I'm dropping them off my pull list as well.

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 08:28 AM

Oh, I trust him. I trust him to write stories about violence or gross humor. It's what he's been doing all along. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not buying them. It's all I say.

As for Robbie, if he is indeed Penance, then this is the worst example of character assassination I've ever seen. Why twist a character into totally the opposite of what he was meant to be? Why not just create a new one? Is Marvel going the DC way, with no more humorous characters, just gloom and doom? (And no, mean-spirited humor ala Nextwave is not what I'm talking about.) If so, I'm dropping them off my pull list as well.

Doom and Gloom?

Iv seen people go mad at each other on forums. sensitive,
i won't tho,
im not an expert on this but heres my 2 cents

Doom and Gloom, i'd say not.
secret six
all new atom apparently?
some funny moments in 52 itself.
JSA-a la cyclones personality
justice- superman! where did you come from? u know lois u done the interview.

fables-does Dc's imprints count?
ex-machina?
robin
teen titans

theres probally more im not mentioning or doing justice.

Will.S

01-04-2007, 08:44 AM

As for Robbie, if he is indeed Penance, then this is the worst example of character assassination I've ever seen. Why twist a character into totally the opposite of what he was meant to be? Why not just create a new one? Is Marvel going the DC way, with no more humorous characters, just gloom and doom? (And no, mean-spirited humor ala Nextwave is not what I'm talking about.) If so, I'm dropping them off my pull list as well.
While I don't like that they've taken away the fun and the bouncy powers of Speedball, I'll have to admit that the whole "Penance" angle is interesting in both his namesake and the way his powers have changed.

But then again I'll have to read the reason why he had a sudden change of heart to remain fully convinced.

Sijo

01-04-2007, 08:47 AM

secret six
You've GOT to be kidding here, right? That's one of DC's darkest titles. Solomon Grundy flesh, anyone?

some funny moments in 52 itself.Which one? Terraman ripped in half? Ralph Dibny going mad? Booster Gold humiliated, then killed? Captain Comet's torture? The deaths of Super Chief and the entire Infinity Inc? Yeah, It's a real riot.

justice- superman! where did you come from? u know lois u done the interview.Superman is the exception that just looks sad living in such a universe.

fables-does Dc's imprints count?No, but even so, I find it even less funny.

robin
teen titansA few jokes do not make a title fun, especially when death or mayhem are always around the corner. That's my problem with DC, you see- I don't trust them not to ruin things again anymore.

Nothing personal, btw. I welcome feedback.

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 08:58 AM

You've GOT to be kidding here, right? That's one of DC's darkest titles. Solomon Grundy flesh, anyone?
Which one? Terraman ripped in half? Ralph Dibny going mad? Booster Gold humiliated, then killed? Captain Comet's torture? The deaths of Super Chief and the entire Infinity Inc? Yeah, It's a real riot.

Superman is the exception that just looks sad living in such a universe.

No, but even so, I find it even less funny.

A few jokes do not make a title fun, especially when death or mayhem are always around the corner. That's my problem with DC, you see- I don't trust them not to ruin things again anymore.

Nothing personal, btw. I welcome feedback.

no probs, i like this discussion,
it's friendly!!!!!

Yeah grundy flesh was very funny man, (the fact that he came back smarter, means it's less sinister) his faith was not doomed i mean.

i think funny moments each issue can give the feel of lightheartedness and humourous to the title,
your right, all superhero books have danger just arounfd the corner, this is just the genre.

i read lots of marvel and dc, and can't find much gloom man thats all.

52 is 52 issues everone, there will be pain, thier will be suffering, but alas there will be humor,

exemples.
i'll list some
1. all the funny hero's with funny names who skeets ends up killing-funny then dark
2. ambush bug- nuff said
3.clark kent ripping the piss outta lex luthor
4. that crazy island of kidnapped scientists
5. egg fu menacing?
6. nightwing trying to bed a lesbian?

Paul Nolan

01-04-2007, 09:17 AM

So warren ellis will make speedball really cool now that he will become the villain known as penance!
He wears a iron maiden with the 513 spikes to represent the amount of peole that died in the stamford explosions!

i look forward to the new thunderbolts issue 110

that sucks.... that REALLY sucks

for me. Civil War should have been called "Millar Ruins the Marvel Universe"!
He single handedly depleted my monthly Marvel reading from 15 titles to 4 (thank god for Brubaker, but bye bye Uncanny after the Shiar Run).

Sijo

01-04-2007, 09:19 AM

Grievous: I guess we just don't find the same kinds of things funny. No, I'm not making a big deal out of this- I'm just saying that things like 52 have convinced me that DC finds such mayhem acceptable, at the very least, and are planning on exploiting the hell out of it at the worst. Hey, it's their comics. But they aren't getting my money. And neither will Marvel if they ape them.

Beast

01-04-2007, 09:20 AM

Does anyone trust warren ellis? i ask.
Nope. And this is a terrible idea.

I don't even like Speedball, and I recognize this the worst idea in ages. :p

Rollo_Tomasi

01-04-2007, 09:25 AM

"It's all about accountability". I'd like to see Stark explain to the general public and especially those who were looking to see Speedball go on trial why he won't be held accountable. I'm anti-reg, but I think this is really ironic. "Hey, we're willing to let it slide that you and your teammates killed a lot of people by showing off, as long as you become a government slave. Oh that accountability stuff that is supposed to be for the masses? Let me guess, you still believe in Santa Claus, too, kid?"

Since Robbie was shot on live television, do we know if the public knows he is still alive? For all they know, he died from an assasin's bullet...

And, the whole thing about "I can't believe they're doing this to Speedball...", Joe Q's been hinting at this for months on Joe Fridays. This is no big surprise for me.

TimmyTony

01-04-2007, 09:39 AM

Wow...except for She-hulk, Marvel has truly drained the fun out of almost every book/concept.

Why take a perfectly harmless, goofy Ditko charcatre and turn it into a ridiculously "cool" emo-meets-self mutilation SnM freak?
It just seems so stupidly perverse, like "let's slap the face of those stupid Speeball fanboys by completely twisting their lame hero into an edgy villain...

I bet next they will turn Squirrel Girl into a crack-addicted super-hooker with a penchant for getting rodents up her arse...

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 09:41 AM

Haunt

01-04-2007, 09:46 AM

to fans of Speedball, don't worry he's (for all intents and purposes) dead. all Penance has in common with Speedball is the majority of his dna. new look, new attitude, new powers, new person.

Paul Nolan

01-04-2007, 09:49 AM

to fans of Speedball, don't worry he's (for all intents and purposes) dead. all Penance has in common with Speedball is the majority of his dna. new look, new attitude, new powers, new person.

So you're saying they might as well have used a new character, right?

it sure sucks to be a comic fan about now... remember when comics were fun?

Karl O'Neill

01-04-2007, 09:51 AM

am i the only person on the planet whos thinks comics are still fun??
is newsarama this gloomy?

Beast

01-04-2007, 09:58 AM

am i the only person on the planet whos thinks comics are still fun??
is newsarama this gloomy?
No, Newsarama is worse. Maybe we just don't consider turning a fun-loving goofy character into a twisted S&M pain-loving deviant to be the best thing since sliced bread. :p

TimmyTony

01-04-2007, 09:59 AM

to fans of Speedball, don't worry he's (for all intents and purposes) dead. all Penance has in common with Speedball is the majority of his dna. new look, new attitude, new powers, new person.

You have a point there.

But I am not a fan of the character itself, I thought he was an ok dude, harmless and inoffensive.
What worries me is Marvel's insistence in taking these fun concepts and twisting them to be "edgy"

Why not create a brand new character called Penance?

No big deal anyway, I guess.

Thank god there are writers like Dan Slott around...

Matt Adler

01-04-2007, 10:05 AM

This turns my stomach. Nauseous, literally. I grew up with this character. Hopefully this wrong-headed decision will be rethought by those in charge.

If i wanted goofy jokey characters, id go read a slap-stick comic.

Which is exactly what Speedball was. And what a lot of people do want.

Does anyone trust warren ellis? i ask.
i do
It depends what you mean by trust. Warren Ellis can be a very good writer, but he doesn't do light-hearted comics, and that's what Speedball is supposed to be. So no, I have no reason to believe he is going to stay true to the character.

Fatguy

01-04-2007, 10:05 AM

Nope. And this is a terrible idea.

I don't even like Speedball, and I recognize this the worst idea in ages. :p

I totally agree. I have never been all that high on Speedball, but this is just a silly idea.

Though, I guess he could still be fun-loving Speedball...cracking jokes while stabbing himself in the face. I suppose you never know....but that seems awful too.

Psyco panda

01-04-2007, 10:17 AM

Angsty speedball I can almost accept, but i hope he gets a redesign, and that the spiky armor guy was just fillin art, like the original Bubbleman Ronin, because frankly the image we saw of penance looks like it was designed by a 14 year old or Rob Liefeld.

Sijo

01-04-2007, 10:18 AM

Beast

01-04-2007, 10:20 AM

Just like Spider-Man! :D
Don't get your point. Spider-Man is still the same character at his core.

Sijo

01-04-2007, 10:24 AM

Don't get your point. Spider-Man is still the same character at his core.
But they changed everything else, even his origin, heck even Gwen's innocence. Still not as bad as Robbie being Penance, though.

XPac

01-04-2007, 10:28 AM

Well, I guess my Squirrelgirl/Speedball SS ship has just sailed. Unless of course Squirrel Girl is into the leathery dominatrix sort of thing.

Beast

01-04-2007, 10:38 AM

Well, I guess my Squirrelgirl/Speedball SS ship has just sailed. Unless of course Squirrel Girl is into the leathery dominatrix sort of thing.
She can get some pointers from Emma Frost. :D

Jmacq1

01-04-2007, 10:38 AM

As Miss Kitty speculated above....

I could almost see them going that route...if only for comedic effect.

But more likely the whole Speedball/Squirrel Girl bit only existed in that one-shot. :p

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 11:10 AM

Yeah, taking a light-hearted, fun, sort of goofy character and turning him into some self-hating martyr pain freak is exactly what Marvel needed. I so look forward to other edgy decisions like this, such as some writer deciding that Reed Richards has been molesting Franklin for the past couple years.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 11:52 AM

Beast

01-04-2007, 11:56 AM

You really expect him to still be goofy after an entire nation demonizes him, his family and former friends foresake him (or die), he's shot on national TV and people are happy about it, and he faces all manner of trauma in prison? Do you really expect him to be the same Speedball?

Speedball is a broken man. I take Penance to be the extent of his broken-ness, and again, I have faith that if anyone can make it work, it will be Warren Ellis. Besides, we have so many villains becoming good anyway, it's about time someone from the other side of the tracks crossed over :p
He can gain some maturity from it, without becoming the pain-loving self-inflicted S&M freak that he's been turned into. After being abused by writers, of course he shouldn't be the same character. But this leap doesn't make a lick of sense, no matter who was writing it. Those villans who have crossed the tracks at least have shades of grey aspects to their personality. Speedball doesn't.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:05 PM

Brevoort's said that learning Penance's identity is only going to raise more questions. Clearly, we're seeing that right now.

As for the whole pain thing, not only does it draw upon religious motifs of penitence, but it's also functional, as Speedball's powers are activated by pain. The current costume looks kind of like Voldo from Soul Calibur, but no matter.

As for what he gains, I think it's far more than maturity. Here is an innocent man, who his pushed beyond the brink of acceptable by a world that adored him one day and wants his head the next. He was pushed completely from one extreme to the next without any warning, for something he had absolutely no control over. If anything, I think he was forced to grow up too quickly as a result of this, and ends up like an extreme version of those "troubled children" from broken homes.

Nevets F

01-04-2007, 12:07 PM

You really expect him to still be goofy after an entire nation demonizes him, his family and former friends foresake him (or die), he's shot on national TV and people are happy about it, and he faces all manner of trauma in prison? Do you really expect him to be the same Speedball?

Speedball is a broken man. I take Penance to be the extent of his broken-ness, and again, I have faith that if anyone can make it work, it will be Warren Ellis. Besides, we have so many villains becoming good anyway, it's about time someone from the other side of the tracks crossed over :p

Finally! Someone who gets it. Nobody would be the same after everything he went through. He is partly responsible for hundreds of deaths.....sixty children! This....makes sense.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:10 PM

Finally! Someone who gets it. Nobody would be the same after everything he went through. He is partly responsible for hundreds of deaths.....sixty children! This....makes sense.
No...it doesn't.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 12:13 PM

You really expect him to still be goofy after an entire nation demonizes him, his family and former friends foresake him (or die), he's shot on national TV and people are happy about it, and he faces all manner of trauma in prison? Do you really expect him to be the same Speedball?
No, I think all of that was a stupid idea in the first place. Why anyone thought it was a good idea to take a character like Speedball and turn him into this pain-filled pariah, I have no idea.

As far as good ideas go, the whole asinine thing - the use of Speedball/the New Warriors to set up this negativistic "event" story - is right up there with "Hm, the entire world depends on someone figuring out this incredibly complex math/science problem... let's leave it to Mike Tyson!"

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 12:16 PM

Here is an innocent man, who his pushed beyond the brink of acceptable by a world that adored him one day and wants his head the next. He was pushed completely from one extreme to the next without any warning, for something he had absolutely no control over. If anything, I think he was forced to grow up too quickly as a result of this, and ends up like an extreme version of those "troubled children" from broken homes.

And doing all that with Speedball makes exactly as much sense as using rape as a plot point in JLA stories, or as it would make sense to use the PEANUTS characters to do a moving, realistic story about meth addiction.

I mean, really, there's already the Punisher. How many heroes pushed over the edge by horrible circumstances does the Marvel U really need?

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:23 PM

Oh, Speedball is far from the Punisher. The Punisher is truly messed up, because he enjoys the killing that he does, to the point where he's made that his life's work. Punisher is someone who went to Nam and never really came back. Speedball/Penance (or, as I shall now dub him, PenBall) is a different animal entirely. PenBall is a look at what can happen to even the best person when life shits on you after going to Taco Bell. He was resilient for a while, but he's no Biblical Job. PenBall said enough, and now apparently considers himself responsible for all of those deaths.

Really, this is comics. You think PenBall is messed up, there's always this little trope:

"Well, my parents were gunned down in an alley in front of my eyes. Rather than become a cop, I think I'll dress up as a bat and learn kung fu."

Realism is relative in comic-dom. I think this is fodder for some great stories to be told. We haven't even seen what Ellis will do to PenBall yet, anyway. Wait til Thunderbolts before you start crapping on him as much as Iron Man has.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:30 PM

Really, this is comics. You think PenBall is messed up, there's always this little trope:

"Well, my parents were gunned down in an alley in front of my eyes. Rather than become a cop, I think I'll dress up as a bat and learn kung fu."

Realism is relative in comic-dom. I think this is fodder for some great stories to be told. We haven't even seen what Ellis will do to PenBall yet, anyway. Wait til Thunderbolts before you start crapping on him as much as Iron Man has.
That's really a poor comparison. The tragety that changed Bruce happened when he was a child. An impressionable child who saw his parents gunned down and then wanted to prevent that happening to anyone else. The only reason he went with the Bat costume was to strike fear in the hearts of the criminals. Not because he was a pain-loving S&M freak who was torturing himself by driving spikes into his body. And no, realism is not realtive in comics. Especially in the Marvel Universe. The heroes and powers may be fantastic, but their lives and problems are always grounded heavily in realism.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 12:35 PM

Realism is relative in comic-dom. I think this is fodder for some great stories to be told.

I don't worry a whole lot about "realism" in books about guys in tights that beat the crap out of each other. That's a whole different issue, really.

My point is that Speedball was a really crappy choice of character to saddle with this whole trip in the first place, and this latest turn of events - the Penance thing - just takes it into a whole 'nother level of crappiness.

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 12:37 PM

I don’t get frontline. So I'm flying a little blind here. I think if its done right Speedball becoming Penance is the best thing to ever happen to the character.

I always thought Speedball was a joke and one of the unfunny one's (watch Leno and see with I mean). But as guy who is eating up with grief for being indirectly responsible for the death of 600 plus and being directly responsible for the death of 2. . Add in to the fact that the only way he can use his powers and unburden his guilt written conscience is to cause his self physical pain. There is a lot to work with and I think this is classic greek tragedy at its best. Now I really want to get ThunderBolts.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:37 PM

And so then, Beast, you're telling me that if you were pushed to the point of being broken, without a single person in the entire world, who gives a crap about you or what happens to you, you wouldn't want to seek redemption in some way?

PenBall's looking for redemption. Hence the name. But, like any emo kid, he's going a bit far with it. Then again, if he wants to reclaim his name through acts of heroism, he needs his powers, which are only activated through pain. Hence, the spikes.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:43 PM

It's still crap. Which makes me glad I don't like Ellis or Thunderbolts.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:44 PM

That's dodging the question, Beast. In his situation, would you or would you not seek out some way to redeem yourself and your good name?

The Lucky One

01-04-2007, 12:48 PM

So... it's confirmed. Huh. I'm oddly detached; there's just this little voice in the back of my mind that says, "Leave it alone, he'll be back to normal ten years from now. Just let them get it out of their systems."

At least we now know what the second stupidest idea in history is, right after "Hey, let's kill all the Jews!"

-D

Shellhead

01-04-2007, 12:48 PM

That's dodging the question, Beast. In his situation, would you or would you not seek out some way to redeem yourself and your good name?

You're dodging a bigger question. Why did the writers and editors of Marvel Comics decide to put one of their youngest and happiest heroes in that situation in the first place? Why can't Penance be a brand new character? Why does Speedball need to be ruined? Couldn't they find a different reason to kick off this Civil War storyline? Did they learn nothing from their bankruptcy in the 90's?

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 12:50 PM

But, like any emo kid,

The problem is right there. Speedball was created as, and has always been, about as far from "emo" as you can get. He's about as emo as the Animaniacs.

The idea that Marvel apparently thinks this whole emo/masochist version of Speeball is an improvement just baffles me. Light-hearted and fun and goofy apparently aren't desired traits for characters in the MU.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:51 PM

That's dodging the question, Beast. In his situation, would you or would you not seek out some way to redeem yourself and your good name?
Doutful. Even more unlikely in Speedball's case.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:52 PM

You're dodging a bigger question. Why did the writers and editors of Marvel Comics decide to put one of their youngest and happiest heroes in that situation in the first place? Why can't Penance be a brand new character? Why does Speedball need to be ruined? Couldn't they find a different reason to kick off this Civil War storyline? Did they learn nothing from their bankruptcy in the 90's?

Can't be dodged a question you weren't asked.

As for that particular question, I don't have the right to answer that question, as I am neither an editor or writer at Marvel and don't know their complete rationale. Maybe it's to show the evils of the system. Maybe it's because of Paul Jenkins' clear bias for the anti-side (in fact, that there might be it).

You can ask about those editorial decisions and why they were made in real life all you like, but we can never find great answers. "Why did Magneto herd people into crematoria?" "Does Jean ever stay dead?", etc. Thinking about it from the perspective of the actual character, though, all I'm trying to say is that this evolution of his character, given the circumstances he's been through, makes sense to me.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:52 PM

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:54 PM

Doutful. Even more unlikely in Speedball's case.

To the contrary. I would think that Speedball, having once been a public icon for heroism, would be more than willing to redeem himself in the eyes of the world.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:54 PM

"Why did Magneto herd people into crematoria?"
Answer: Because it wasn't Magneto. Which explains why it's out of character.
"Does Jean ever stay dead?"
Answer: No. Because her name is 'Phoenix'. That's part of her powers.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:55 PM

To the contrary. I would think that Speedball, having once been a public icon for heroism, would be more than willing to redeem himself in the eyes of the world.
But he's not redeeming himself in anyone's eyes. Nobody is gonna know he's Penance.

Not to mention he's working with villains that everyone in the world hates anyway.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 12:56 PM

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 12:59 PM

But he's not redeeming himself in anyone's eyes. Nobody is gonna know he's Penance.

Not to mention he's working with villains that everyone in the world hates anyway.

Yeah, dressing in a spiky outfit and scary helmet and hanging out with Bullseye, Green Goblin and Venom seems a pretty dumb way to try to redeem oneself in the eyes of the public. Short of deciding to decorate his costume in swastikas, it's hard to imagine a worse idea from a public relations POV.

Beast

01-04-2007, 12:59 PM

He's redeeming himself in his eyes. By joining the Thunderbolts and playing ball with the big, bad government, he's no longer a criminal, but rather someone on the path to absolution (that's what the idea of the Thunderbolts was at its core: villain reform). And this is where the writers get to have fun with it, and decide where the character goes from there.
But none of these villains want to reform. They just want to legally beat up and kill heroes without having to deal with the prison system. Which is also why Ellis' Thunderbolts doesn't really work in my idea. It's not in the same vein as the previous Thunderbolts. But back to Speedball, we've seen for tons of issues that he doesn't want to play ball with the government, that he resents being blamed for Stamford. So his sudden change of heart doesn't work any better than his sudden S&M pain dealie.

Slumber Hulk

01-04-2007, 01:02 PM

This would have been a good idea if Night Thrasher or Namorita had been the survivor but not the fun loving Speedball!

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:02 PM

He's redeeming himself in his eyes. By joining the Thunderbolts and playing ball with the big, bad government, he's no longer a criminal, but rather someone on the path to absolution (that's what the idea of the Thunderbolts was at its core: villain reform). And this is where the writers get to have fun with it, and decide where the character goes from there.

That's not really how it's framed in FRONTLINE at all. It's more "I'm this evil screw-up and loser and I suck and my life sucks and the world sucks and I don't care about life any more, so I'm gonna embrace my pain and dwell in it and hope I die sooner rather than later." And I suppose deciding to hang with a bunch of freaks like Venom and Bullseye fits in with that... but again, my point is taking that route with Speedball, of all characters, is just perverse.

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:03 PM

But none of these villains want to reform. They just want to legally beat up and kill heroes without having to deal with the prison system. Which is also why Ellis' Thunderbolts doesn't really work in my idea. It's not in the same vein as the previous Thunderbolts. But back to Speedball, we've seen for tons of issues that he doesn't want to play ball with the government. So his sudden change of heart doesn't work any better than his sudden S&M pain dealie.

This has to be better then the fight club Thunderbolts.

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 01:03 PM

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:04 PM

This would have been a good idea if Night Thrasher or Namorita had been the survivor but not the fun loving Speedball!

Yeah, while I'd not be fond of the idea, it would sort of make sense for Night Thrasher to take that route. Or Rage, even.

But Speedball? Emo Speedball is about as wrong as a Hawkeye that takes everything seriously, never cracks a joke, never takes chances, plays by the book at all times, etc.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:06 PM

This has to be better then the fight club Thunderbolts.

Well, getting your foot broken is better than getting your face set afire, but it's not like either is exactly a good thing.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 01:09 PM

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:10 PM

That much is true; this incarnation is closer to DC's "Suicide Squad". That said, Ellis didn't come up with the idea. He's just writing it.

Penitent Knights, from the medieval times, were fearsome people as well. They self-flagellated, and when they weren't doing that or kneeling in a pool of their own blood while they prayed, they were out killing things to redeem themselves in the eyes of God. Think of PenBall as a new take on that concept. The flagellation, the desperation for redemption. PenBall could be the only member on that team seeking redemption, so long as he is.

Again, you'r missing the point. It's gorramn Speedball. It's not that it can't be a compelling character, it's just a bad idea to make it Speedball.

The character's history tarnishes the attempt, and the attempt tarnishes the character's history.

It would be like trying to tell a serious story about Squirrel Girl: Herald of Galactus.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:12 PM

What were they doin with Speedball before all this again? When was the last time anyone posted in a thread based solely on Speedball?

There was a NEW WARRIORS mini awhile back.

But even if they'd done nothing with him, even if he'd just been wasting away in obscurity, so what? Which would be better, to be the kid that gets ignored, or the one that gets actively abused and pimped out for money?

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:15 PM

What were they doin with Speedball before all this again? When was the last time anyone posted in a thread based solely on Speedball?

When was the last time anyone talked about, oh, let's say Wyatt Wingfoot? Would it be a great direction for the character if this was him? Or Willie Lumpkin maybe? How about Dai Thomas? Being in comic book limbo is sometimes better than being brought out of it.

Has anyone actually read Thunderbolts by Ellis yet?

Does a "no" answer make this idea somehow better?

He watched as his team was killed and a bunch of school children. This would screw anyone up, don't care who you are.

Realism doesn't have much room to stand in a universe about guys in tights firing death rays from their eyes at each other on a weekly basis.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 01:18 PM

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:19 PM

When was the last time anyone talked about, oh, let's say Wyatt Wingfoot? Would it be a great direction for the character if this was him?

I look forward to Marvel's big new launch of 2007, WYATT WINGFOOT, AGENT OF N.A.M.B.L.A.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:20 PM

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:20 PM

Again, he watched as his best friends were killed along with a bunch of school children and he was the only survivor. Some people deal with things differently. Also anyone actually have a summary of what happened in Front Line? Thats the worse part about the net. People jump to conclusions without actually reading anything.

I repeat: Realism doesn't have much room to stand in a universe about guys in tights firing death rays from their eyes at each other on a weekly basis.

I blame Identity Crisis for this new fad that ignoring characterization and history is fine.

Man, at least in the 90's they gave crappy reasons for OOC behavior. Like mind control, or clones, or mind controlled clones.

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:21 PM

Does a "no" answer make this idea somehow better?

Lady Mastermind, Mystique and Sabretooth as X-men. The first thing I thought was what a bad idea this was. But then after reading the book, I came away thinking Carey is the best writer ever to make me buy into those three killers on the team.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:24 PM

I repeat: Realism doesn't have much room to stand in a universe about guys in tights firing death rays from their eyes at each other on a weekly basis.

I blame Identity Crisis for this new fad that ignoring characterization and history is fine.

Man, at least in the 90's they gave crappy reasons for OOC behavior. Like mind control, or clones, or mind controlled clones.
Actually, realism has plenty of room in the Marvel Universe. Like I said before, while the characters and powers may be fantastic, the problems are fairly based in realism. Howver even after Stamford Speedball wasn't in 'Penance' mode until he suddenly took a major 180 in today's Front Line. And don't worry, when they want to salvage Speedball, I'm sure we'll get a crappy excuse to ignore all of this. :)

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:25 PM

Considering his attitude in Front Line suddenly did a complete 180 out of nowhere.

This is why I stop getting Front Line. I would have like for Speedball to take some responsibility for what happen, but once I saw that wasn't going to happen then it just made me dislike the character even more.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 01:25 PM

Considering his attitude in Front Line suddenly did a complete 180 out of nowhere.

I've seen some of the preppy, rich kids that I went to school with a few years later and they pulled a complete 180 by becoming gothic or metal heads or whatever you would like to call them. Point is they are not the same people I once knew. People change. Watching your friends die will f__k you up no matter who you are.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:26 PM

Lady Mastermind, Mystique and Sabretooth as X-men. The first thing I thought was what a bad idea this was. But then after reading the book, I came away thinking Carey is the best writer ever to make me buy into those three killers on the team.
Exactly. Almost everyone complained about Mystique and Sabretooth especially. But how it's being written and handled at least makes sense. What's being done with Speedball, not so much. :p

Wild Card13

01-04-2007, 01:26 PM

Again I say, Brevoort said this was supposed to raise more questions than answers. I'm sure we'll get answers eventually.

Oh, and nice Firefly reference, yeoman. Good to see I'm not the only Browncoat here.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:27 PM

I've seen some of the preppy, rich kids that I went to school with a few years later and they pulled a complete 180 by becoming gothic or metal heads or whatever you would like to call them. Point is they are not the same people I once knew. People change. Watching your friends die will f__k you up no matter who you are.
I don't agree. Not in this case. It makes no sense what so ever.

I blame Space Phantoms.

Alan2099

01-04-2007, 01:32 PM

What were they doin with Speedball before all this again? When was the last time anyone posted in a thread based solely on Speedball? Has anyone actually read Thunderbolts by Ellis yet? He watched as his team was killed and a bunch of school children. This would screw anyone up, don't care who you are.

Recently Speedball watched everbody he knew and every super hero on the planet get killed (including his entire team). He then teamed up with a bunch of grade Z superheroes (the last ons left alive) to fight the invasion force that killed them in the first place. After that, he found out that even though his team one, he'd never get to go home again.

He handled THAT better than this.

Keep in mind, everybody that's talking about slipping into depression, self mutilation, and bloody revenge, THIS (http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/2901/speedballscottpi8.jpg), is the guy you're talking about.

Keep that in mind.

This is Speedball. (http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/3204/speedballprofilexc7.jpg) Not This. (http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2829/penancetboltsmn7.png)

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:35 PM

Again I say, Brevoort said this was supposed to raise more questions than answers. I'm sure we'll get answers eventually.

I wouldn't expect them to make any sense.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:36 PM

I wouldn't expect them to make any sense.
Considering Brevroot has said that everything the Pro-Reg side has done, include creating clones of the dead is totally justified in his mind. No, I wouldn't expect it either.

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:37 PM

I think there a big difference between watching some one die then being a reason for some one dying.

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:37 PM

Lady Mastermind, Mystique and Sabretooth as X-men. The first thing I thought was what a bad idea this was. But then after reading the book, I came away thinking Carey is the best writer ever to make me buy into those three killers on the team.

I thought nothing about it when I heard about it. Two of them have been on X-teams in the past, and the X-men have a history of bringing villians onto the team stretching back into the 60's.

Rogue herself being a prime example.

And while Carey admits to something like it in interviews, with the exception of Bobby and Sam, that team's roster reads like a Brotherhood of Evil Mutants team.

The biggest difference is that Carey is a talented writer who wants to play around in the X-subuniverse. Ellis seems to have adopted a "Too cool for school" attitude and far more often than not, treats any and all super-heroes like jokes.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 01:38 PM

Considering Brevroot has said that everything the Pro-Reg side has done, include creating clones of the dead is totally justified in his mind. No, I wouldn't expect it either.

I stopped reading the "Ask Tom" thread a couple months ago because a) the stuff he was saying along those lines made less sense than the delusional utterances of my schizophrenic clients, and b) I wanted to try to maintain some degree of respect for the guy.

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:39 PM

Oh, and nice Firefly reference, yeoman. Good to see I'm not the only Browncoat here.

The Yeo just likes made up swear words. I also enjoy Frell, Frak, Sprok and Bloody Nass.

Not that Firefly wasn't friggin' awsome, because it was.

Alan2099

01-04-2007, 01:39 PM

I think there a big difference between watching some one die then being a reason for some one dying.

We're talking about Speedball here, not Nitro.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 01:41 PM

Ellis is an awesome writer. You say he treats all superheroes like jokes. Was Authority a joke?

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:42 PM

We're talking about Speedball here, not Nitro.
Yeah, it would make more sense for Nitro to be forced to wear an Iron Maiden filled with spikes for everyone of the dead and made to work with a team of pychos than Speedball. :p

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:43 PM

We're talking about Speedball here, not Nitro.

Bingo. There might be some sort of point if, say, it had been Robbie's powers going wildly out of control that caused this. Or, even, he pushed his powers past the safe point in a fight and caused it.

But he didn't. A psychotic with a history of bragging about being responsible for the death of one of the most noble beings in the whole of the MU did it. Heck, he might have done it for giggles if the Warriors had been in another state. Speedball just happened to be there.

patch

01-04-2007, 01:44 PM

and another thing, marvel sure needed another anti-hero to add to the pile they seemed to be running a little low.

the only good thing about the "new" thunderbolts is i hopefully get to see more of the old thunderbolts die...horribly.

<still bitter genis-vel fan>:p

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:46 PM

We're talking about Speedball here, not Nitro.

Oh yeah. It was Nitro who killed the cop and the farmer who found Speedball in that field.

yeoman

01-04-2007, 01:47 PM

Ellis is an awesome writer. You say he treats all superheroes like jokes. Was Authority a joke?

No, it mearely treated super-heroes as fascists. By Ellis' own admittance at that.

About the only time I can think of that he didn't treat them as near crazy or as jokes was in parts of his Excalibur run, and parts of his Stormwatch run. Especially Winter.

But recently? I'll take the Radioactive Man threatening to render people sterile if they don't help him save New York over EmoBall.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:47 PM

Oh yeah. It was Nitro who killed the cop and the farmer who found Speedball in that field.
Which again, wasn't his fault. As it clearly shows in the issue.

Young Avenger

01-04-2007, 01:48 PM

Where are you getting pain loving from? I read Frontline today and I didn't see or read anything about Speedball actually enjoying the pain he puts himself through.

Beast

01-04-2007, 01:50 PM

Where are you getting pain loving from? I read Frontline today and I didn't see or read anything about Speedball actually enjoying the pain he puts himself through.
The last issue of Front Line, when 'Hook Hands' was bashing guards in the chest with his head. Speedball looked back at him and gave him a creepy smile and said that he likes the pain.

Brian M.

01-04-2007, 01:58 PM

I think it's kinda ironic that Speedball is Penance.

Think about he started off this happy guy, then Stamford happens and he proclaimed over and over he didn't do it, he's not responsible. Yet now he feels like he has to pay for his actions? It's really a very cool evolution of the character imo. I thnk it may actually get me to pick up Thunderbolts. I like that whole tortured soul thing.

Red Lotus

01-04-2007, 01:58 PM

Which again, wasn't his fault. As it clearly shows in the issue.

His power goes crazy and kills two people. Yeah he wasn't trying to kill anyone but he is still at fault. Speedball is to fun loving to stop and say hey my action may have cause some of this. So I dont think he is blameless. Him taking some of the blame for what happen is a great start. They should have slowly turned him into Penance.

wellsoul2

01-04-2007, 01:59 PM

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 02:09 PM

No, it mearely treated super-heroes as fascists. By Ellis' own admittance at that.

About the only time I can think of that he didn't treat them as near crazy or as jokes was in parts of his Excalibur run, and parts of his Stormwatch run. Especially Winter.

But recently? I'll take the Radioactive Man threatening to render people sterile if they don't help him save New York over EmoBall.

Ellis doesn't have a set way in which he treats his superheroes. Each of his superhero stories is different. Ultimate FF was not a joke nor was Ultimate Galactus Trilogy. And these are not Super heroes but supervillians. I still think everyone should wait until the book comes out but thats the problem with the net.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 02:11 PM

Where are you getting pain loving from? I read Frontline today and I didn't see or read anything about Speedball actually enjoying the pain he puts himself through.

People jumping to conclusions. Oh yea dont forget hes into S&M also:rolleyes:

Beast

01-04-2007, 02:14 PM

People jumping to conclusions. Oh yea dont forget hes into S&M also:rolleyes:
The last issue of Front Line. And he's wearing red leather with spikes in his flesh. That's pretty S&M.

Mikey Brown

01-04-2007, 02:30 PM

The last issue of Front Line. And he's wearing red leather with spikes in his flesh. That's pretty S&M.
Sorry but thats not really S&M. Look it up. There are a lot of people in the Marvel and hell even DC that has spikes in their costume and everyone wears leather. Once again jumping to conclusions.

Beast

01-04-2007, 02:34 PM

Sorry but thats not really S&M. Look it up. There are a lot of people in the Marvel and hell even DC that has spikes in their costume and everyone wears leather. Once again jumping to conclusions.
Those spikes arn't driven into their flesh. And no, most people wear Spandex. Or a similar material.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 02:38 PM

No, it mearely treated super-heroes as fascists. By Ellis' own admittance at that.

About the only time I can think of that he didn't treat them as near crazy or as jokes was in parts of his Excalibur run, and parts of his Stormwatch run. Especially Winter.

No matter how often he says it, I really do not buy Ellis "I hate superheroes" thing. He hates stupid, repetitive superhero stories, but it's simply possible that the guy who wrote BATMAN/PLANETARY - and who, in doing so, demonstrates a better understanding of and reverence for the underlying concept of Batman than have 3/4 of the people that have written Batman for the past two decades - does not really love superheroes deep down.

Alan2099

01-04-2007, 02:46 PM

Ironically, I tend to see a lot more disrespect in his superhero stories when he takes them seriously than when he's just writting them for humor.

The Lucky One

01-04-2007, 02:57 PM

Ellis doesn't have a set way in which he treats his superheroes. Each of his superhero stories is different. Ultimate FF was not a joke nor was Ultimate Galactus Trilogy. And these are not Super heroes but supervillians. I still think everyone should wait until the book comes out but thats the problem with the net.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am waiting for the book to come out, and I will read at least the first few issues of Ellis's Thunderbolts.

However, that does not in any way change the fact that it is an absolutely ludicrous direction to go in with Speedball's character. Good things CAN come from ludicrous ideas, and we will all certainly hope that's the case here, I'm sure.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that it is a really, really ridiculous idea. Like, godawful ridiculous.

-D

Castaway

01-04-2007, 03:00 PM

the whole pain freak s&m aspect really disturbs me, not because the nature of the powers, but because it seems so drastic and out of left field especially associated with a nice guy like speedballWelcome to Marvel--where editors sleep and characters change personlities annually, depending on which writer or artist picks up a pen... it might be best to think of everything after Onslaught as Marvel's Elesworlds Universe... ugh:(

sorry to appear so negative today... after reading FF for twenty years and following Marvel at least that long it is discouraging to see where we are now... and yet I buy hoping it will get better...

genesis

01-04-2007, 03:02 PM

Im surprised that no one corrected the mistake in the first post its 612 spikes not 513.

The Lucky One

01-04-2007, 03:07 PM

Im surprised that no one corrected the mistake in the first post its 612 spikes not 513.

Seriously. They always say it's the last 99 that hurt the most.

-D

patch

01-04-2007, 03:24 PM

penance should get the penance stare from ghost rider and save us all from "speedy the gimp".

and the fact that ellis wrote the ulitimate gawd-it-sucks-alot trilogy does not fill me with any confiedence at all.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 03:31 PM

the story wasn't as bad as i thought it would be but i still don't see it as the natural evolution of the character. i'd sooner expect to see Dwayne Taylor in that get-up.

Siddon

01-04-2007, 03:53 PM

I think it's a good move, the fact remains that Speedball is not some sacred cow of a marvel character like Black Panther or Scarlet Witch. Speedball was a flop of a character who only was put into modern contiunity during the expassion era and he could not survive under the current era.

As for the issue I have mixed feelings I thought we had one really good scene, one okay scene and one bad scene.

The Mr. Fantastic - Robbie scene I thought was a little corny, I don't see how Reed who has been detached during this whole storyline suddenly cares about Speedball. I think the scene would have worked a lot better with a former New Warrior or She-Hulk.

The secret costume scene was <ahem> very weak in my eyes I did think it was dark and not as cringe worthy as the other scenes, but I did feel that it was a little to much of how cool this costume is type deal.

The Bobbie doesn't give a f#$% scene was my favorite Speedball scene ever. He gave the guy no sympathy or empathy he just told him that was he was free as is Penance. Also we find out that Penance has a very short lifespan certainly is an interesting twist on the character.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 04:25 PM

I personally thought the Penance origin story was better than the 'embedded' in this issue, mainly because Robbie talked smack to Mr. Stretchy-pants, and the new costume.

that is a bad-ass costume. true, its a lil' wierd about the whole 'pain and gain' thing, but whatever, so long as he doesn't turn emo, and only cuts himself to make things explode, I'll give him a shot.

Also his new speech-bubble is neat to.

screw it, everything baout baldwin is better know, I can't wait to see him next week in Thunderbolts!

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 04:31 PM

I guess it helps to take comics less seriously when you're not super-invested in the characters. They are fictional, they are primarily composed of paper and ink, they are not sacred. They do not go "out-of-character", they just change as different writers have different ideas.

I think this is a great move. For some reason, Penance reminds me of something Bendis would do, like the way he inserted Jessica Jones into MU continuity with a super-hero backstory? This is a similar scenario, but in this case, the backstory ACTUALLY occurred. Penance is a like new character with a retroactive backstory that highlights the changes he's been through.

Speedball is dead, as far as fans should be concerned.

And I love this stuff, so much. Taking a minor, goofy-ass character and putting him in the big leagues? Awesome, let's see some more of that. Create new characters, create change in existing ones, don't let things get stagnant.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 04:48 PM

I guess it helps to take comics less seriously when you're not super-invested in the characters. They are fictional,

God is fictional and people take It pretty seriously. heck, if Captain America died, it would make it into the New York Times. so don't kid yourself. these characters have importance.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 04:49 PM

God is fictional and people take It pretty seriously. heck, if Captain America died, it would make it into the New York Times. so don't kid yourself. these characters have importance.

kinda like when superman died the first time.

Beast

01-04-2007, 04:53 PM

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:01 PM

You do realize, that not everyone considers 'God' to be fictional.

You might wanna dial back the attempted offensiveness factor just a bit.

or maybe i'll just let my statement stand. feel free to prove God's existence if you disagree with it.

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:01 PM

God is fictional and people take It pretty seriously.

Yeah, that's definitely why the history of the world is riddled with endless religiously-fueled conflicts. It's all about warring factions concerned over the handling of their favorite character's characterization.

heck, if Captain America died, it would make it into the New York Times. so don't kid yourself. these characters have importance.

This is probably true. However, Captain America is an icon. His meaning transcends the character in the comic and represents the World War II era, the fight against the Nazis, and so on. He's an icon, alright. And Speedball is a lameass who's unknown to non-fans and in the grand scheme of things doesn't have much of a point to him. So there's a difference.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:04 PM

Yeah, that's definitely why the history of the world is riddled with endless religiously-fueled conflicts. It's all about warring factions concerned over the handling of their favorite character's characterization.

oh that's just because people are evil, stupid, and fearful.

This is probably true. However, Captain America is an icon. His meaning transcends the character in the comic and represents the World War II era, the fight against the Nazis, and so on. He's an icon, alright. And Speedball is a lameass who's unknown to non-fans and in the grand scheme of things doesn't have much of a point to him. So there's a difference.

i rest my case.

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:07 PM

or maybe i'll just let my statement stand. feel free to prove God's existence if you disagree with it.

Regardless it's a bad point to make. It's completely irrelevant.

If comic fans were killing each other over the existence of Superman or fighting due to their different conceptions of the true will of the Green Lantern, it'd be a pretty fair comparison. As it stands, those who argue about God do not believe they are arguing about a character, so taking Speedball as seriously as the ancient idea of a greater power is hilariously bizarre.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:11 PM

Regardless it's a bad point to make. It's completely irrelevant.

sort of like you taking this as an opportunity to lambast fans of Speedball. what i said offended you; vice versa.

If comic fans were killing each other over the existence of Superman or fighting due to their different conceptions of the true will of the Green Lantern, it'd be a pretty fair comparison. As it stands, those who argue about God do not believe they are arguing about a character, so taking Speedball as seriously as the ancient idea of a greater power is hilariously bizarre.

only if you look at it from the perspective of a christian. i think it's pretty frickin ridiculous that someone would blow up another just because they practice their faith differently, for instance. this is especially hilarious since you have "evil bastard" written above your avatar.

Siddon

01-04-2007, 05:11 PM

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:13 PM

oh that's just because people are evil, stupid, and fearful.

How optimistic, and completely unaware of my point.

i rest my case.

Your case being...what, exactly? That Captain America is iconic? Did anyone ever contest that?

He's one of the exceptions to the rule. He stands for something more than he is. What the hell does Speedball stand for, beyond bouncy bubbles and general jackassery? These characters, in general, are the playthings of the writers. They are subjects of their imaginations, sources of entertainment. They are no more than that. And when people lose sight of that, well, that's what I call a fanboy. And not the endearing kind.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:13 PM

Let me set the priorities straight with a list of importance in classic Cool to uncool scale

Cool
God
Stan Lee
Angelina Jolie
Captain America
Spider-man
"Heros"
Ape-Beast
Magneto
Chris Claremont
Dr. Doom
Wolverine
Cat-Beast
Paris Hilton
Human Beast
Namorita
Gambit
Speedball
Black Panther
Rage
Deathcry
John Byrne
Gamora
Silver Samurai
Dental Work
Iching burning sensations
Scott Lang
Hitler
Uncool

yes, that's the top 27. now where do you think you rank?

Your case being...what, exactly? That Captain America is iconic? Did anyone ever contest that?

my case that you're just as silly as the rest of us fanboys. you attribute greater meaning to Captain America. he's just a cartoon character. you see him as an icon. i see he and Speedball as equals.

Shellhead

01-04-2007, 05:15 PM

or maybe i'll just let my statement stand. feel free to prove God's existence if you disagree with it.

Jeez, Haunt. What next, are you going to ask people to prove that their version of God is the right one? Heh. You know that they're just going to wave it away with their Faith™.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:18 PM

Jeez, Haunt. What next, are you going to ask people to prove that their version of God is the right one? Heh. You know that they're just going to wave it away with their Faith™.

i don't care about anyone's faith. i'm just saying that God is as fictional as Speedball.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 05:18 PM

Jeez, Haunt. What next, are you going to ask people to prove that their version of God is the right one? Heh. You know that they're just going to wave it away with their Faith™.

when was faith trademarked?

Tobias March

01-04-2007, 05:21 PM

when was faith trademarked?

Countless times. But y'know court of appeal, image rights, dispute over origin....infinite paperwork. No one will touch it.

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:27 PM

sort of like you taking this as an opportunity to lambast fans of Speedball. what i said offended you; vice versa.

Nah, you'd have to try a lot harder than that to offend me. I didn't question the legitimacy of your statement, only it's relevance to this argument. Because it has none. People take God seriously because they believe he is real; no sane person thinks Speedball is real, so suggesting it's normal to take him as seriously is bizarre, and though obviously intentionally provocative, not particularly logical.

only if you look at it from the perspective of a christian. i think it's pretty frickin ridiculous that someone would blow up another just because they practice their faith differently, for instance.

Yeah, everyone's on the same page there. Still has nothing to do with Speedball, and it just underlines the idea that comparing a fictional character to an ancient idea is pretty ill-fitting.

this is especially hilarious since you have "evil bastard" written above your avatar.

What's especially hilarious? It's not like I'm peddling God here. I'm just saying your argument is intentionally "shocking" nonsense. And I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to fight, I'm just saying it's a bad comparison.

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:36 PM

my case that you're just as silly as the rest of us fanboys. you attribute greater meaning to Captain America. he's just a cartoon character. you see him as an icon. i see he and Speedball as equals.

I don't see him as an icon, it's just how he's viewed by the public. He's an exception to the rule. He's a source of inspiration who stood for something great at a desperate time. He's like Superman. He resonates with people because he's a symbol for their country. He's the personification of America. It's like calling someone silly for saluting the flag.

And yeah, it's wierd to put so much stock in a character, but it happens with a select few.

So what does Speedball stand for that makes him so recognized with the general public, again?

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:36 PM

Nah, you'd have to try a lot harder than that to offend me. I didn't question the legitimacy of your statement, only it's relevance to this argument. Because it has none. People take God seriously because they believe he is real; no sane person thinks Speedball is real, so suggesting it's normal to take him as seriously is bizarre, and though obviously intentionally provocative, not particularly logical.

Yeah, everyone's on the same page there. Still has nothing to do with Speedball, and it just underlines the idea that comparing a fictional character to an ancient idea is pretty ill-fitting.

What's especially hilarious? It's not like I'm peddling God here. I'm just saying your argument is intentionally "shocking" nonsense. And I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to fight, I'm just saying it's a bad comparison.

your argument makes the assumption that people take God seriously solely because they think it's real. to me God might represent mankind's potential for good. and Speedball might represent happier times during my childhood.

I don't see him as an icon, it's just how he's viewed by the public.

i'm the public. i don't see him as an icon.

He's an exception to the rule. He's a source of inspiration who stood for something great at a desperate time.

he represents the positive side of steroids.

[He's like Superman.

yes, very very whitebread.

He resonates with people because he's a symbol for their country.

only Americans and not me. i like the Irredeemable Ant-Man.

He's the personification of America.

only because he's wearing a flag.

[ It's like calling someone silly for saluting the flag.

or calling it idolatry?

[So what does Speedball stand for that makes him so recognized with the general public, again?

he represents the hero who isn't perfect and isn't trying to be; the goofball.

will_butler

01-04-2007, 05:37 PM

Just to interject, I've gotten a lot more out of reading Ellis than I ever have out of reading Speedball. I'm looking forward to seeing how he runs with the idea.

Will

MAK15

01-04-2007, 05:39 PM

Just to interject, I've gotten a lot more out of reading Ellis than I ever have out of reading Speedball. I'm looking forward to seeing how he runs with the idea.

Will

HERE!HERE!

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:42 PM

Just to interject, I've gotten a lot more out of reading Ellis than I ever have out of reading Speedball. Will

Speedball's not a writer.

will_butler

01-04-2007, 05:43 PM

Speedball's not a writer.

It's funny how there's nothing untrue in either of our statements.

Will

spidervenom

01-04-2007, 05:45 PM

Its gonna be interesting to see how ellis pulls it off

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 05:46 PM

your argument makes the assumption that people take God seriously solely because they think it's real.

Well, show me a few people who don't think God is real, and still take him seriously.

to me God might represent mankind's potential for good. and Speedball might represent happier times during my childhood.

Then I'd suggest you always have back issues to relive your childhood with, but that's still way off topic since you're talking your way back from a ridiculous and ill-fitting comparison.

It's fine if you've connected with a character, it happens. But when you're so invested in him that you seriously compare him to God, then you may want to reexamine your perspective. As it stands, Speedball is a decades-old perpetually-goofy comic book character. God is an ancient idea for which wars have been fought and lives have been lived. No matter what you think of that, one is significantly more important in human history.

Beast

01-04-2007, 05:48 PM

Its gonna be interesting to see how ellis pulls it off
Badly. That would be my guess.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:48 PM

Well, show me a few people who don't think God is real, and still take him seriously.

Then I'd suggest you always have back issues to relive your childhood with, but that's still way off topic since you're talking your way back from a ridiculous and ill-fitting comparison.

It's fine if you've connected with a character, it happens. But when you're so invested in him that you seriously compare him to God, then you may want to reexamine your perspective. As it stands, Speedball is a decades-old perpetually-goofy comic book character. God is an ancient idea for which wars have been fought and lives have been lived. No matter what you think of that, one is significantly more important in human history.

actually i don't even like Speedball. i just think his transformation was poorly planned. if he's an entirely new character, why not use an entirely new character?

Alan2099

01-04-2007, 05:50 PM

It's fine if you've connected with a character, it happens. But when you're so invested in him that you seriously compare him to God, then you may want to reexamine your perspective. As it stands, Speedball is a decades-old perpetually-goofy comic book character. God is an ancient idea for which wars have been fought and lives have been lived. No matter what you think of that, one is significantly more important in human history.
Obviously you forgot about the Speedball war of '73 or how Christopher Colombus sailed across the ocean because thats where he heard Speedball comics where made.

Shellhead

01-04-2007, 05:50 PM

I wonder if the real reason that the New Warriors got shafted so badly was because their aging is a problem for Marvel's sliding scale of time. The newer young groups, like Young Avengers and Runaways, aren't a problem (yet) because they are so new. Franklin Richards has been severely messed with in the 40+ years since he first appeared. But what about the Power Pack kids?

Haunt

01-04-2007, 05:53 PM

Obviously you forgot about the Speedball war of '73 or how Christopher Colombus sailed across the ocean because thats where he heard Speedball comics where made.

yeah, he did it for spices. whoop-dee-freak'n-doo. :D

I wonder if the real reason that the New Warriors got shafted so badly was because their aging is a problem for Marvel's sliding scale of time. The newer young groups, like Young Avengers and Runaways, aren't a problem (yet) because they are so new. Franklin Richards has been severely messed with in the 40+ years since he first appeared. But what about the Power Pack kids?

well Alex Power is going to die eventually. Gravity sort of make him redundant.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 06:01 PM

well Alex Power is going to die eventually. Gravity sort of make him redundant.

you know that Gravity died, right?
pick up Beyond! #6 or the TPB

Doom Hammer

01-04-2007, 06:02 PM

i'm the public. i don't see him as an icon.

You're an individual. You are not indicative of the public as a whole.

he represents the positive side of steroids.

Yeah, that and the little Nazi thing. You're just being difficult.

yes, very very whitebread.

Irrelevant. I didn't say he was a compelling character, I said he held an iconic status. Which he does. It's undeniable. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's not a symbol.

only Americans and not me. i like the Irredeemable Ant-Man.

So do I. It's still irrelevant to the point. Actually, you're supporting the orignial point by ignoring the iconic status of a few characters. If you remember, the point was that these characters (with the exception of a few) are nothing sacred and are subject to writer's interpretation. You're just removed a small modifier from my original statement. So what are you being so difficult about?

only because he's wearing a flag.

And the little fighting-Nazis-and-upholding-ideals bit, but yeah, mostly the flag thing...

or calling it idolatry?

My point exactly! Fanboys who stumble into the realm of idolatry will never be content with any changes! That's what I'm trying to say! What are you trying to say here, because you're jumping all over the place.

It's undeniable, however, that some characters resonate with the public for their symbolic meanings. The broad majority, though, should NOT be viewed as such, because then we get bitter fanatics and comparison to God...

he represents the hero who isn't perfect and isn't trying to be; the goofball.

No, he IS the hero who isn't perfect and isn't trying to be; the goofball. He's not an icon. I think he's a cool character. But he's not a permanent, sacred fixture. And "goofball" is another word for "jackass", so what are you offended about?

Haunt

01-04-2007, 06:12 PM

No, he IS the hero who isn't perfect and isn't trying to be; the goofball. He's not an icon. I think he's a cool character. But he's not a permanent, sacred fixture. And "goofball" is another word for "jackass", so what are you offended about?

a character meant to be a goofball being changed into some brooding leather freak. it's really no different than making Captain America a racist, to me. they are all on the same level, even if i don't like them.

you know that Gravity died, right?
pick up Beyond! #6 or the TPB

you know that his story isn't over, right? check out Beyond #6.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 06:27 PM

you know that his story isn't over, right? check out Beyond #6.

yeah,yeah, he influences a bunch of people, details in Fantastic Four #544 or somtin like that

trickster

01-04-2007, 06:54 PM

He can gain some maturity from it, without becoming the pain-loving self-inflicted S&M freak that he's been turned into. After being abused by writers, of course he shouldn't be the same character. But this leap doesn't make a lick of sense, no matter who was writing it. Those villans who have crossed the tracks at least have shades of grey aspects to their personality. Speedball doesn't.

Uh, yeah. This is fiction we're talking about here. Maturity has a different meaning in comics.

scratchie

01-04-2007, 06:58 PM

or maybe i'll just let my statement stand. feel free to prove God's existence if you disagree with it.Thanks. That's really gonna improve the quality of conversation on this board.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 07:05 PM

Thanks. That's really gonna improve the quality of conversation on this board.

its a message board, how much quality where you expectin'.

at least there isnt anybody typin "OMFG!YOU LIEK PENENCE?!?!LOL U S&M FREAK!"

...lol roflcopters

trickster

01-04-2007, 07:07 PM

Yeah, that's definitely why the history of the world is riddled with endless religiously-fueled conflicts. It's all about warring factions concerned over the handling of their favorite character's characterization.

This is probably true. However, Captain America is an icon. His meaning transcends the character in the comic and represents the World War II era, the fight against the Nazis, and so on. He's an icon, alright. And Speedball is a lameass who's unknown to non-fans and in the grand scheme of things doesn't have much of a point to him. So there's a difference.

Well, I guess you're right. Cos non-religious wars have been short. Like, I dunno, WW2 or WW1. And don't kid yourself, no war was fought over religions. It was always used as a pretext.

Beast

01-04-2007, 07:09 PM

Well, I guess you're right. Cos non-religious wars have been short. Like, I dunno, WW2 or WW1. And don't kid yourself, no war was fought over religions. It was always used as a pretext.
Now who's kidding themselves.

lllhouselll

01-04-2007, 07:09 PM

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm bondage

genesis

01-04-2007, 07:11 PM

OMFG!YOU LIEK PENENCE?!?!LOL U S&M FREAK!

Sorry MAK15 had to do it.

The Lucky One

01-04-2007, 07:11 PM

i don't care about anyone's faith. i'm just saying that God is as fictional as Speedball.

Luckily, He doesn't feel the same about you.
;)

-D

MAK15

01-04-2007, 07:12 PM

I jus loves how this topic about a COMIC BOOK character turned inta somtin religous.

isnt there a message board where ya'll could talk about this?

MAK15

01-04-2007, 07:13 PM

OMFG!YOU LIEK PENENCE?!?!LOL U S&M FREAK!

Sorry MAK15 had to do it.

no prob, it was actually kinda funny! :p

converge241

01-04-2007, 07:15 PM

I went into length about this on the thunderbolts thread but basically to review again

just because you dont like where the character is going doesnt mean it's bad

not every New Warrior is going to go through prison as well as Vance Astro did..and not every New Warrior is going to go through prison (and everything else that has happened to the character) as tortured as Robbie Baldwin

facts are different characters in different stories will be changed by such an experience..be it in real life or comics

and this has been obvious since the first panel where speedball's powers acted up again and the first mention of the pennance character "his ID is secret for a reason..he needs pain.... etc" that was all tossed around about the character

trickster

01-04-2007, 07:17 PM

Thats the worse part about the net. People jump to conclusions without actually reading anything.

Not only that, but there hasn't been one book that's been dumped on in this forum that I haven't actually liked.

trickster

01-04-2007, 07:23 PM

Now who's kidding themselves.

um, you? If religion is fake, then obviously it has only been used as a pretext. Let's face it, the Germans and Japanese were after territorial expansion. And may I remind you that America is now invading Irak for economic reasons, no matter how GB may be doing it in the name of "God". The only improvements they've brought over there is a civil war and street ads for capitalist merchandise. I expect the cublicle culture to follow soon.

converge241

01-04-2007, 07:27 PM

Another analogy (only works if you watched OZ)

im sure a lot fo people like nice guy, poor drunk driver, Beecher when he first came in on OZ and hey wouldnt it have been nice if he stayed that way

after endless torture he was quite a different man as the show progressed

eventually he got back to the core person he was

and hey speedball fans maybe baldwin will as well someday

im amazed by all the outrage over a character (or 2 characters counting speedball and pennance seperately) who really dont matter..this shouldnt be like when the turned Bucky into the Winter soldier..neither should matter in the long run and i could care less about wither character/version its just a damn good character story during CW..wont matter eventually

..watch marvel make me eat my words and shove Pennance down everyone's throats now..minis..ongoing monthlies..ugh

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 07:51 PM

You do realize, that not everyone considers 'God' to be fictional.

Lots of people believe silly stuff.

The point is still a good one in any case. Characters do matter. People wouldn't read nearly as many comics - perhaps none at all - if they didn't care about the characters. This is why books featuring Spider-Man and Batman sell more than those featuring Humbug and Manitou Raven.

yeoman

01-04-2007, 07:54 PM

Lots of people believe silly stuff.

The point is still a good one in any case. Characters do matter. People wouldn't read nearly as many comics - perhaps none at all - if they didn't care about the characters. This is why books featuring Spider-Man and Batman sell more than those featuring Humbug and Manitou Raven.

Is it wrong that I'd pay to see and crossover book featuring Humbug and Manitou Raven?

They could call it "Tales of WTF?"

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 07:55 PM

Badly. That would be my guess.

I expect he will make something interesting of this, but that doesn't change the fact that turning Speedball to this tortured, grim hero is still a really stupid and wrong-headed idea.

yeoman

01-04-2007, 07:58 PM

I went into length about this on the thunderbolts thread but basically to review again

just because you dont like where the character is going doesnt mean it's bad

It also doesn't mean it isn't bad.

And, when it comes down to it, Ellis could write the single most intrigueging and well made comic ever using penance, and it still wouldn't make the original concept of "Speedball becomes an Emo Masochist and teams up with Bullseye and Green Goblin" a good idea. It would just mean Ellis was a brillant writer capable of turning s**t into gold.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 08:00 PM

Is it wrong that I'd pay to see and crossover book featuring Humbug and Manitou Raven?

They could call it "Tales of WTF?"

It would have the potential to be vastly better than this week's issues of either CIVIL WAR or FRONTLINE, or Meltzer's JLA.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 08:01 PM

I expect he will make something interesting of this, but that doesn't change the fact that turning Speedball to this tortured, grim hero is still a really stupid and wrong-headed idea.

as opposed to the goofy idiot who complained how no one took him seriously?
yeah, thats a whole lot better. If you're gonna be in a major company arc that promises changes, then damnit to the fuzzy blue pits of hell, there should be changes, no matter the character!

Kevinroc

01-04-2007, 08:01 PM

It also doesn't mean it isn't bad.

And, when it comes down to it, Ellis could write the single most intrigueging and well made comic ever using penance, and it still wouldn't make the original concept of "Speedball becomes an Emo Masochist and teams up with Bullseye and Green Goblin" a good idea. It would just mean Ellis was a brillant writer capable of turning s**t into gold.

A brilliant writer is one that can make a concept that sounds so horrible come off as a great story.

(Example: Ed Brubaker with The Winter Soldier.)

StoneGold

01-04-2007, 08:04 PM

I expect he will make something interesting of this, but that doesn't change the fact that turning Speedball to this tortured, grim hero is still a really stupid and wrong-headed idea.

Yeah, because it's really going to kill the sales of Speedball's solo book. Or his long-running team book that he's a member of.

Seriously, Robbie going all grim changes jack and squat at the end of the day. One less character to appear in the background whenever we need to be reminded that there are more characters in the MU than just the ones in the main books.

Here is an interesting thought though. Taking an existing character, giving them a new secret ID with a totally different character based on another character's death, with new powers that are completely disgusting.

Robbie, or FabNic's recreation of Andreas Strucker into the Swordsman?

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 08:07 PM

as opposed to the goofy idiot who complained how no one took him seriously?
You've obviously read so much Speedball. He wasn't really much into complaining about very much.

yeah, thats a whole lot better. !
Well, apparently Marvel agrees with you. I certainly don't. That's why I'll just read these crappy books at the store or via scans and spend my money on stuff that isn't just more of the retarded "grim and serious superheroes" trend. With YOUNG AVENGERS on hiatus and most of the ongoing books sucking so bad with CIVIL WAR, I'm saving a lot of money right now.

Haunt

01-04-2007, 08:08 PM

as opposed to the goofy idiot who complained how no one took him seriously?

i still have trouble taking him seriously. because the image of some spindly kid who never lifted a weight in his life underneath that bulky suit is funny to me. it's like Robbie became a bad@$$ overnight because of the way it was written. he goes from doofus to boxing champion to hulking spiked nutcase in a few months time. it might not be Ellis' fault but compare all of Penance's promo pics to a McNiven pic of Robbie from Civil War. he's like a head taller and 50 lbs thicker.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 08:09 PM

You've obviously read so much Speedball. He wasn't really much into complaining about very much.

Well, apparently Marvel agrees with you. I certainly don't. That's why I'll just read these crappy books at the store or via scans and spend my money on stuff that isn't just more of the retarded "grim and serious superheroes" trend. With YOUNG AVENGERS on hiatus and most of the ongoing books sucking so bad with CIVIL WAR, I'm saving a lot of money right now.

at least you're saving money. what'cha planning on doing with it all?

StoneGold

01-04-2007, 08:21 PM

You've obviously read so much Speedball. He wasn't really much into complaining about very much.

Neither have you. Or at least not Ditko Speedball. All he did was complain. Granted, it was stupid, half-assed Randian "do I go with my mother's values or my father's" complaining, but still. And he did his fair share of complaining on the Warriors. Granted, it was the 90s. Everyone complained. But he wore his Al Pachino in Carlito's Way jacket like everyone else.

JeffreyWKramer

01-04-2007, 08:21 PM

Yeah, because it's really going to kill the sales of Speedball's solo book. Or his long-running team book that he's a member of.

Because obviously a character that doesn't have an ongoing book can't be interesting, or can't someday *have* an ongoing book. If that trend was followed in general, we'd never have had Alan Moore's SWAMP THING or the "All New, All Different X-Men", and Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, the Marvel Family, the JSA, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, the Silver Surfer and Nova might all just as well have been killed off or mutated into something entirely unrecognizable ages ago.

On the positive side, this would have saved us from Judd Winnick's GREEN ARROW, I suppose.

MAK15

01-04-2007, 08:26 PM

IamtheRock3

01-04-2007, 11:06 PM

think I it a sucky idea

we need more comical charcter not less

The Lucky One

01-04-2007, 11:23 PM

actually, JefferyWKramer is right in the fact that I haven't read that much Speedball. Truth be told the most of speedball I read prior to this was during the new warriors mini series last year, and I only got his complaining part when I remembered him bemoaning to newbie Microbe.

Then... you haven't actually read ANY Speedball.

Do yourself a favor, read the original New Warriors #1-50 or so. Then come back and tell us if you're still psyched about what they've done to the character.

Ah well... we still have memories of the fun times.

Turbo: "I just know that dork is going to touch my elbow and think he's made it to second base."
Speedball, thinking: Aw, man... I was about to score some sweet elbow action off of Mickey!

-D

lllhouselll

01-04-2007, 11:30 PM

dear mom , the writers at marvel turned me in to a masochistic kinetic energy wielding freak with no eye holes in my helmet, i cant see so if im spelling things wrong im sorry tell dad im sory i know i let him down all the time but after killing those kids i figured id try some self mutilation to make myself pay so spikes and a dumb looking costume is my penance , wow penance i think ill use that as my new alias while ill miss the home made dinner ill never be home again mom i love you

your son
Robbie aka Speed....errr Penance

MakeshiftHero

01-04-2007, 11:44 PM

I only glanced at this in the store today and I saw a part with Reed talking to Robbie saying he doesn't have to fight he just has to register.

So does Reed know that Robbie is Penance or does anyone know who "Penance" is?

lllhouselll

01-04-2007, 11:46 PM

i dont belive anyone knows , but then again for him to be in the TBolts , Tony must know at some point maybe just not yet

MAK15

01-04-2007, 11:55 PM

i dont belive anyone knows , but then again for him to be in the TBolts , Tony must know at some point maybe just not yet

Im pretty sure Norman osborn is gonna know, since he's smart enough not to let anyone on the team who he doesn't know their first and last name.

yeoman

01-05-2007, 12:22 AM

A brilliant writer is one that can make a concept that sounds so horrible come off as a great story.

(Example: Ed Brubaker with The Winter Soldier.)

And with Brubaker I might have some faith that it could be pulled off. But he's had to prove to me time and again that he can make a crappy sounding concept work.

Four or five years ago I might have had that much faith in Ellis.

Edit: Hell, He made Iron Fist intresting. Iron Fist hasn't been intresting for, I think over a decade.

yeoman

01-05-2007, 12:28 AM

Then... you haven't actually read ANY Speedball.

Do yourself a favor, read the original New Warriors #1-50 or so.

I dunno if I'd go that far. Personally, I think the run hit it's high note at their second fight with Terrax, but there is still some good stuff after that.

That second fight with Terrax, though, that's the bit that shows what Super Heroes used to be, and jsut how far out of character the Warriors have been in Civil War.

This is an arc where the group is forced into a fight with a Herald of Galactus, and the best they can do, the best they know they can do, is risk their lives to keep him busy, and try to save lives until Nova can get back with the Fantastic Four.

StoneGold

01-05-2007, 12:51 AM

Because obviously a character that doesn't have an ongoing book can't be interesting, or can't someday *have* an ongoing book. If that trend was followed in general, we'd never have had Alan Moore's SWAMP THING or the "All New, All Different X-Men", and Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, the Marvel Family, the JSA, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, the Silver Surfer and Nova might all just as well have been killed off or mutated into something entirely unrecognizable ages ago.

On the positive side, this would have saved us from Judd Winnick's GREEN ARROW, I suppose.

Actually, don't think Speedball can. Not without significantly altering him, anyways. Were any of the characters you just mentioned comic relief characters without much of a history apart from being a comic relief character on a very specific team? For that matter, a team that hadn't been financially successful since the early 90s?

And honestly, your examples not so good. In fact, they take away from your argument. Wein (and Claremont) transformed the X-Men into something all but unregcognizable from the old book. Nova got turned from a squeaky clean kid who said Blue Blazes to a stubbled, bad-ass 90s character who said #*($& a lot. The Marvel Family has gone through more transformations than I can shake a stick at. The Swamp Thing that Alan Moore wrote was completely different than the one Len Wein wrote. And so on and so on.

Of course. They weren't named Speedball. Which really, as a comic relief sidekick is a great name, but as a featured character really stinks. Seriously, did you get this pissed off when they gave Robin the ugliest disco costume ever, had him start banging and alien, get all gritty and call himself Nightwing?

stillanerd

01-05-2007, 12:52 AM

I dunno if I'd go that far. Personally, I think the run hit it's high note at their second fight with Terrax, but there is still some good stuff after that.

That second fight with Terrax, though, that's the bit that shows what Super Heroes used to be, and jsut how far out of character the Warriors have been in Civil War.

This is an arc where the group is forced into a fight with a Herald of Galactus, and the best they can do, the best they know they can do, is risk their lives to keep him busy, and try to save lives until Nova can get back with the Fantastic Four.

Also, just to show that the New Warriors weren't always considered by Marvel, one of their first battles as a team was against the Juggernaut...course they were teamed up with Thor at the time, but even so they were hardly considered C-listers. So if they could go toe-to-toe with Juggernaut, much less a former herald of Galactus, why not Nitro?

But incidently, this whole thing with Speedball becoming Penance is ridiculous in the sense that this is essentially Joe Q taking his personal animosity out on the character by turning him into an armor wearing, angst ridden, S&M freak with a "cooler" more "marketable" name (remember those Joe Friday's where he said Speedball was lame because his own name didn't sound like a bankable movie franchise?)--sort of like a throwback to the 1990s, and also because it's basically saying that, even though Nitro was the one who actually killed the 600+ people in Stamford and despite Speedball pointing this out himself, basically enduring imprisionment, torture, attempted assassination which basically makes him all but a martyr, he deserves it because it was all his fault hence why he basically self-flaggelates himself now, and becomes associated with psychotic killers as part of the new new Thunderbolts. Bet Joe Q got the inspiration from that albino character from the Da Vinci Code.

StoneGold

01-05-2007, 12:56 AM

Then... you haven't actually read ANY Speedball.

Do yourself a favor, read the original New Warriors #1-50 or so. Then come back and tell us if you're still psyched about what they've done to the character.

Ah well... we still have memories of the fun times.

Turbo: "I just know that dork is going to touch my elbow and think he's made it to second base."
Speedball, thinking: Aw, man... I was about to score some sweet elbow action off of Mickey!

-D

Here's the thing... if you're saying the last time Speedy was used well was over a decade ago, then what do you really care? And for the record, I probably own damn near every Robbie appearance. I have the original series. I have the Marvel Super Heroes appearances, which were basically just leftover Ditko issues. I have the issue where he tried to join the Avengers, the first New Warriors appearance in Thor, the whole run of NW (even the really bad ones after FabNic left), the terrible second series, and the third series that I kind of liked. I'm probably missing random issue of some book he's in the background in, because I'm really not that obsessive. And I only got the Ditko stuff because I liked Speedy in New Warriors, the Ditko stuff was cheap, and it turns out it was terrible.

Go to any board FabNic was lurking on, you'll see me begging for a Deadpool/Fixer/Speedy teamup. But somewhere down the line, I realized I just like FabNic writing goofy characters.

StoneGold

01-05-2007, 12:59 AM

Oh, and for the record, I'm not sure if I like what happened, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

XPac

01-05-2007, 01:10 AM

Also, just to show that the New Warriors weren't always considered by Marvel, one of their first battles as a team was against the Juggernaut...course they were teamed up with Thor at the time, but even so they were hardly considered C-listers. So if they could go toe-to-toe with Juggernaut, much less a former herald of Galactus, why not Nitro?

But you have to remember that this isn't the same team that went up against Juggernaut and Terrax. I don't think the smaller weaker team that confronted Nitro would have done terribly well against Terrax or Juggy. A descent arguement could be made that Justice, Firestar, and Nova were overall the best of the bunch.

Though really, they COULD have beaten Nitro. It was simply a matter of Namorita not hitting him hard enough. If she had decided to hit him hard enough to knock him out, they would have won.

stillanerd

01-05-2007, 01:25 AM

But you have to remember that this isn't the same team that went up against Juggernaut and Terrax. I don't think the smaller weaker team that confronted Nitro would have done terribly well against Terrax or Juggy. A descent arguement could be made that Justice, Firestar, and Nova were overall the best of the bunch.

Though really, they COULD have beaten Nitro. It was simply a matter of Namorita not hitting him hard enough. If she had decided to hit him hard enough to knock him out, they would have won.

That's true, and there were villains the New Warriors went up against that were weaker by comparison where they got their asses handed to them (Gideon comes to mind). However, you did have three out of four on the team who were pretty experienced by then, especially since three of them (Night Trasher, Namorita, and Speedball) were team members since the very beginning. And remember, it was later revealed after the fact that Nitro was hoped up on Mutant Growth Hormones which boosted his power levels. Prior to that, his explosions weren't that powerful and one of the common ways to defeat him was to have him prevent himself from reforming after exploding or have him explode multiple times. Not saying they could've beaten Nitro, but maybe if Nitro wasn't on MGH, they might've fared a bit better. I know it's been said many times before, but prior to Civil War #1 and their reality TV-based series, the New Warriors, while not considered top league in the MU, certainly had some experience.

StoneGold

01-05-2007, 01:32 AM

Come to think of it, the Gideon thing could actually be an in-continuity reasoning for what's happened to Speedy. Keep in mind all the trippy stuff Gideon was able to do with Speedy's powers, but Speedy could never do because he's, at heart, a shmuck. Getting blowed up and shot and stuff will do a lot to change a man.

Evan Waters

01-05-2007, 01:54 AM

RoguefanAM

01-05-2007, 02:02 AM

So you're saying they might as well have used a new character, right?

it sure sucks to be a comic fan about now... remember when comics were fun?

I wouldn't say it sucks to be a comic fan right now. Maybe generally comics aren’t as light-hearted as they used be, but that doesn't mean they've had a decrease in the quality of their writing or art.

Besides, if all you're looking for in comic's is fun, I doubt your going to be a comic fan much longer. At least, judging from the way the different companies seems to going nowadays. :)

Onto the actual topic: Hopefully, this little change doesn't alter Robbie's character as much as I fear. If the change completely alienates his character, I'm not going to bother picking up the New Thunderbolts series. I was made a fan of Speedball because of his character, which was light-hearted and dorky, by changing that it's comparable to (if not almost as bad as) killing him; at least, in my book.

Sean Whitmore

01-05-2007, 03:31 AM

I think we're all missing a very important point, here.

This is the most unintentionally funny thing I've seen in comics all decade.

Seriously. The armor. The overwrought captions. The fact that he CAN'T SEE out of his armor. The fact that he basically cuts himself when he uses his powers. The dialogue.

"The Goddamn Batman" wasn't half as funny as this.

You, sir, have the absolute right idea.

I don't give a flying rat's ass about Speedball, or futilely complaining about characters turning dark, or saying comics aren't fun anymore, whatever the hell THAT means. This stuff is funnier n' hell.

All I know is Speedball spends several pages spewing Sin City-esque nonsense while slipping on masochistic [bleep]-me armor and the whole thing is played as DEAD serious.

It's almost as if Jenkins wanted to defy expectations that he couldn't write anything more friggin' pretentious than those backup strips comparing cartoon characters to Japanese internment.

SEAN

Alan2099

01-05-2007, 03:48 AM

If Speedball was any more emo, he'd spontaniosuly combust. He's not even bothering to cut himself, he's slapped on a costume that cuts himself for him.

Heck, he's not even got into a fight yet and it already looks like that costume has him limping around. Yeah, designing a costume filled with spikes on the inside was a GREAT idea. It's probablly going to be even better when he bleeds to death on his first mission.

lonewolf23k

01-05-2007, 04:43 AM

I am now utterly convinced the Stamford explosion caused Robbie to suffer some brain damage.

It's the only way to explain both his messed-up powers and his messed-up state of mind.

Expletive Deleted

01-05-2007, 06:12 AM

This is the most unintentionally funny thing I've seen in comics all decade.Exactly.

It's so over-the-top goofy in every respect . . . If I didn't know better, I'd swear it was intentional self-parody.

JeffreyWKramer

01-05-2007, 06:42 AM

Neither have you. Or at least not Ditko Speedball. All he did was complain. Granted, it was stupid, half-assed Randian "do I go with my mother's values or my father's" complaining, but still. And he did his fair share of complaining on the Warriors. Granted, it was the 90s. Everyone complained. But he wore his Al Pachino in Carlito's Way jacket like everyone else.

Almost nobody read Ditko's SPEEDBALL, nor is there much reason to do so, because Ditko was way past his prime by then, and wasn't much of a writer even at his best. But the character worked fine for 50 issues or so of NEW WARRIORS, and he wasn't much of a whiner. Sure, he sometimes complained that he wasn't being taken seriously, but then, he wasn't acting seriously, either, which is part of what made the character charming, as opposed to just being another whiny X-Man or Punisher rip-off.

at least you're saving money. what'cha planning on doing with it all?

Mostly buying other books that don't suck, or DVDs.

Between most of the DCU books sucking and Marvel's current output, neither company is making much from me at the moment. I think I'm down to three ongoing DC titles, plus Jeff Smith's upcoming SHAZAM and a couple of Vertigo and Wildstorm books.

also, who said that Penance is emo?

Im pretty sure he doesnt have slicked hair, or wants people to pay attention to him. his attitude is more like "I've been too hell and back, and I've taken some of hell with me"

His new MO is "I'm in pain all the time, my life is painful, I'm gonna embrace the pain". Plus, his new powers essentially work via self-mutilation, and his spiky suit buys into that in a big way. It's like a guy that gets powers from cutting on himself. You can't get much more emo than that without being a member of an emo band.

Plus, Marvel already has a "I need to hurt myself to activate my powers" character, Nico from RUNAWAYS, and they did that without having to rewrite Tigra or Katie Power or someone into a Goth cutter.

JeffreyWKramer

01-05-2007, 06:45 AM

Here's the thing... if you're saying the last time Speedy was used well was over a decade ago, then what do you really care?
Jimi Hendrix hasn't had any new records in well over a decade, and people still care about him. There hasn't been an Indiana Jones movie in well over a decade, and a lot of people are still interested in there being a new one.

NormanB

01-05-2007, 07:09 AM

I will give the character evolution a chance and while remaining cautiously optimistic.

Machinedude

01-05-2007, 07:30 AM

Not too sure how comfortable I am with a "hero" that will at the very least be talking if not showing what could be considered cutting or self-mutalation! There are real people that perform these sort of acts on themselves for various reasons and giving them any sort encouragement/justification/thrill would just be wrong!

I just hope the stories well be handled carefully and not spend too much time on Penace's suit or how he "likes" the pain. Let's not forget that children and young adults will be reading this comic!!!:eek:

Killer Bee

01-05-2007, 07:35 AM

WOW! 9 great issues of Frontline and it all ends in issue 10 with one retarded suit.

The Lucky One

01-05-2007, 07:35 AM

Here's the thing... if you're saying the last time Speedy was used well was over a decade ago, then what do you really care?

Okay... but here's the other thing. Bugs Bunny hasn't done much of anything in the last decade. And Bugs Bunny is a goofy, funny, devil-may-care character who is not and was never meant to be taken seriously.

But if you put Bugs Bunny in a story where dynamite suddenly works in cartoons the way it does in real life, even though it never did before; and in that story Bugs Bunny, while battling Elmer Fudd, uses dynamite that, instead of causing some scorch marks and black smoke, accidentally blows Fudd and the entire cast of Tiny Toons to splattery little kid bits and pieces; and if, following that event, Bugs Bunny is so wracked with guilt that he needs to shove razor blades up his ass every time he wants to magically pull a sledgehammer out of his pocket...

...well, I'm pretty sure I'd call that a really, really $#itty idea. Whether Bugs Bunny has done much in the last decade or not.

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

-D

Ryan Day

01-05-2007, 08:06 AM

Okay... but here's the other thing. Bugs Bunny hasn't done much of anything in the last decade. And Bugs Bunny is a goofy, funny, devil-may-care character who is not and was never meant to be taken seriously.

But if you put Bugs Bunny in a story where dynamite suddenly works in cartoons the way it does in real life, even though it never did before; and in that story Bugs Bunny, while battling Elmer Fudd, uses dynamite that, instead of causing some scorch marks and black smoke, accidentally blows Fudd and the entire cast of Tiny Toons to splattery little kid bits and pieces; and if, following that event, Bugs Bunny is so wracked with guilt that he needs to shove razor blades up his ass every time he wants to magically pull a sledgehammer out of his pocket...

...well, I'm pretty sure I'd call that a really, really $#itty idea. Whether Bugs Bunny has done much in the last decade or not.

The main difference between Bugs Bunny and Speedball (aside from the obvious ones) is that Bugs Bunny is still worth millions in merchandising and licensing. You can still buy Bugs Bunny DVDs, stuffed toys, books, and whatever. Despite not having done anything new, Bugs Bunny is still an incredibly valuable brand and property that wouldn't be messed with lightly.

Speedball, on the other hand, is practically worthless. Ten issues of a solo series 15 years ago, a role in a moderately successful team book after that, then nothing for the last ten years. No Speedball movies or action figures. New Warriors is a tough enough sell, let alone one of the stars on his own. So Marvel may as well do what they can to make the character vaguely successful.

As much as people say they want light and fun books, not enough people buy them to make publishing them worthwhile. She-Hulk, Thing, Nextwave, Plastic Man... even the Marvel Adventures books sell pretty crap in the direct market. The direct market audience that pays Marvel's bills want dark, gritty, "realistic" comics, so that's what they get.

I think it's a pretty lame idea, though I have some faith in Ellis to make it interesting. (I'd have more if it was in a creator-owned book with fewer editorial restrictions) But this is just a matter of giving the audience what it wants.

Paul Nolan

01-05-2007, 08:21 AM

I will give the character evolution a chance and while remaining cautiously optimistic.

ev·o·lu·tion (ĕv'ə-lū'shən, ē'və-)
n.

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

rev·o·lu·tion (rĕv'ə-lū'shən)
n.

3. A sudden or momentous change in a situation

what they've done to Toothpick, certainly ain't evolution...

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 08:24 AM

I'l never understand people who claim characters aren't intresting unless they're hyper violent or extremely depressing.

It still amazes me. Civil War hit rock bottom right from the get go and somehow it still manages to keep getting worse.

And selling huge numbers. I guess people really like stuff I hate. Who knew.

Sigh.

Sijo

01-05-2007, 08:24 AM

The direct market audience that pays Marvel's bills want dark, gritty, "realistic" comics, so that's what they get.Not ALL of us, mind you. And Marvel ALREADY had a version of their universe set aside for that (Ultimate Marvel.) They could appease BOTH sides of fandom, unlike DC. So, why darken the lighter one now?

Ryan Day

01-05-2007, 08:41 AM

Not ALL of us, mind you. And Marvel ALREADY had a version of their universe set aside for that (Ultimate Marvel.) They could appease BOTH sides of fandom, unlike DC. So, why darken the lighter one now?

Because dark books sell. Light ones don't.

Some people want lighter books, but not enough to support more than a handful of books. There's no point in trying to appease both sides of fandom if one side makes up 80% of the audience.

Phrozen

01-05-2007, 08:47 AM

And selling huge numbers. I guess people really like stuff I hate. Who knew.

Sigh.

Just read Kramer's laws.

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 08:49 AM

You really expect him to still be goofy after an entire nation demonizes him, his family and former friends foresake him (or die), he's shot on national TV and people are happy about it, and he faces all manner of trauma in prison? Do you really expect him to be the same Speedball?

Speedball is a broken man. I take Penance to be the extent of his broken-ness, and again, I have faith that if anyone can make it work, it will be Warren Ellis. Besides, we have so many villains becoming good anyway, it's about time someone from the other side of the tracks crossed over :p

Maybe he wasn't the best character to pick for the entire storyline. It's not like Fantastic Force were busy or something.

Paul Nolan

01-05-2007, 08:53 AM

Maybe he wasn't the best character to pick for the entire storyline. It's not like Fantastic Force were busy or something.

and the Craptacular B-Sides were called that for a reason.....

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 09:37 AM

This would have been a good idea if Night Thrasher or Namorita had been the survivor but not the fun loving Speedball!

Yeah, but the Night Thrasher Penance suit should have shown more skin!

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 09:39 AM

This has to be better then the fight club Thunderbolts.

Great little book that probably would have gotten a cult following if they hadn't tried to pass it off as Thunderbolts.

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 10:44 AM

yeoman

01-05-2007, 10:45 AM

Actually, don't think Speedball can. Not without significantly altering him, anyways. Were any of the characters you just mentioned comic relief characters without much of a history apart from being a comic relief character on a very specific team? For that matter, a team that hadn't been financially successful since the early 90s?

Speedball had a solo book once, ya know.

And topping out that, Iron Fist and Nova haven't been financially feasible since the 70's. (Not counting recently).

MAK15

01-05-2007, 11:07 AM

This is gonna make it to the superdickery sites 50 years from now:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4938/penance1uq0.jpg

or at least those 'out of context' things they put in Marvel comics nowadays (like daredevil sniffing something that makes him say 'wow!')

Haunt

01-05-2007, 11:13 AM

MAK15

01-05-2007, 11:17 AM

he seriously needs another codename. 'Penance' belongs to that Generation X girl and she wears it better. Robbie should just go by 'Spikey Emo Lad' or 'Pathos.' or how about calling him the Irredeemable Scapegoat?

the penance chick is M and one of her relatives combined, I think.
and from one of the latest X-factor titles, I dont think shell be using that personna any time soon.

Paul Nolan

01-05-2007, 11:40 AM

the penance chick is M and one of her relatives combined, I think.
and from one of the latest X-factor titles, I dont think shell be using that personna any time soon.

you haven't seen the preview to the new Loners series that features.... Penance

see the scan from Wizard here (http://newwarriors.wordpress.com/2006/09/30/loners-line-up-revealed/)

hopefully we'll find out that Blackball or Darion Gross (Speedball II) has been parading as Robbie, and this screw up will be reversed and the one true penance will be penance.

MAK15

01-05-2007, 11:42 AM

you haven't seen the preview to the new Loners series that features.... Penance

see the scan from Wizard here (http://newwarriors.wordpress.com/2006/09/30/loners-line-up-revealed/)

hopefully we'll find out that Blackball or Darion Gross (Speedball II) has been parading as Robbie, and this screw up will be reversed and the one true penance will be penance.

will, I stand corrected, thanks for that

Sean Whitmore

01-05-2007, 12:23 PM

I just hope the stories well be handled carefully and not spend too much time on Penace's suit or how he "likes" the pain. Let's not forget that children and young adults will be reading this comic!!!:eek:

Yeah, that Warren Ellis is known for treading lightly. ;)

SEAN

the4thpip

01-05-2007, 12:25 PM

Yeah, that Warren Ellis is known for treading lightly. ;)

SEAN

Warren Ellis:

"Joe Q talked me into writing the book while I was still laughing. And then he told me about the Penance character, which is so fucked up it should not be in a children's comic book."

http://www.the-engine.net/forum/index.php?webtag=ENGINE&msg=4660.1

MAK15

01-05-2007, 12:28 PM

Warren Ellis:

"Joe Q talked me into writing the book while I was still laughing. And then he told me about the Penance character, which is so fucked up it should not be in a children's comic book."

http://www.the-engine.net/forum/index.php?webtag=ENGINE&msg=4660.1

then the kids can read Marvel adventures for all i care.
Villains shouldnt be for KIDS anyways.
there bad people, they should be messed up, lethal, and have a nice side dish of dark.
not to dark and brutal, but just enough to make the bad guys stand out from the good guys.