The Identity of Penance (Possible Spoilers)

[Kevinroc]

This has nothing to do with Penance but this is what I'm expecting of the Ellis Thunderbolts.

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Tbolts/01/Tbolts110_pre.html

It looks fun, in an extremely creepy way.

[SnakeEater]

Finding out Penance was going to be speedball wasnt the greatest thing i thought i would read, but after reading the letter to his mother i figured, ok then it has potential, but one thing makes me question the entire idea...
If Speedy has the spikes inverted so that the pain can always be with him, then why did he tell the father who shot him he didnt care at all about his daughter or his pain?

[Phrozen]

Finding out Penance was going to be speedball wasnt the greatest thing i thought i would read, but after reading the letter to his mother i figured, ok then it has potential, but one thing makes me question the entire idea...
If Speedy has the spikes inverted so that the pain can always be with him, then why did he tell the father who shot him he didnt care at all about his daughter or his pain?

Emo kids tend to be self centered.

[blackphoenix]

"Emo kid" is the exact phrase I thought when I read Frontline #11. Speedball, a character who was in the mode of a happy-go lucky hero like Spidey(who's about to go emo himself wit h the Black in Black storyline), is now gonna be just another mopey, whiny, "my-life-is-pain/hell/crap" character. Way to go, Marvel. And I seriously believe the poor kid's in danger of bleedin to death whenever he straps on his kinky metal fetish suit. Geez, isn't ANYONE fun anymore???

[Alan2099]

"Emo kid" is the exact phrase I thought when I read Frontline #11.
On another forum I frequent, he's picked up the nickname "Captain Emo," but there's still a person or two that just calls him "Emoball".


Geez, isn't ANYONE fun anymore???
There's a few, but don't worry, marvel's should be getting around to them soon.

[Evan Waters]

If anyone can inject a life-saving dose of irony into this, it's Warren Ellis.

It'll be difficult if he doesn't want to get into the subject matter, but he could pull it off.

[Sean Whitmore]

On another forum I frequent, he's picked up the nickname "Captain Emo," but there's still a person or two that just calls him "Emoball".

I LOVE "Emoball."

Still [bleep]ing hate "Clor."

But LOVE "Emoball."


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

If anyone can inject a life-saving dose of irony into this, it's Warren Ellis.

If Emoball passes out from blood loss on the way to the T-Bolts' first mission, I swear I'll send Ellis flowers.


SEAN

[JeffreyWKramer]

If Emoball passes out from blood loss on the way to the T-Bolts' first mission, I swear I'll send Ellis flowers.




I wonder if Robbie is up on his tetanus shots.

[ducklord]

I'm torn.

"Emoball" neatly encapsulates who the character was, and what he's become.

But "Captain Emo" has so much cultural resonance, and rolls off the tongue so much better...

This decision is weighing so heavily on me that I may have to start wearing a suit of inward-facing sporks,
Mike.

[yeoman]

I wonder if Robbie is up on his tetanus shots.

If we're all lucky, Slott has already slipped Ellis fifty bucks for Penance to die in the first issue.

Then a month later in She-hulk, Shulkie and Squirrel Girl team up to rescue the New Warriors from the after-life.

Which largely revolves around putting a big "kick me" sign on Mephisto's back and running.

[yeoman]

Well, yeah, but that's an old thing with him. He likes superheroes less than, say, Geoff Johns, but more than Garth Ennis.


SEAN

Is it possible to work in comics but hate Super-heroes more than Ennis?

[Kirk G]

If we're all lucky, Slott has already slipped Ellis fifty bucks for Penance to die in the first issue.

Then a month later in She-hulk, Shulkie and Squirrel Girl team up to rescue the New Warriors from the after-life.

Which largely revolves around putting a big "kick me" sign on Mephisto's back and running.

God, I wish this were true.

I've just finished reading the Accused portion of Frontline #10, and I must say that I hate Penance. I really dislike where this is going for Robbie. And I really really dislike the idea that he's paining himself much like the assassin in the DaVinci Code. I'm going to ignor any comic that he continues in.

Second, I note that Robbie has said to Reed Richards that he'd like to go back in time and stop all of this from happening. This, to Richards, the man who has Doctor Doom's time machine available to him. Do you really think that he might let him or might go meddling in time, against the warning of the Watcher, to set things right again in Civil War?

Third, I recall that Robbie was found miles and miles away from the blast site. All his hair had been burned off. He was not even wearing a complete uniform. How do we actually know that this was really Robbie, and not someone else who has "taken his place?" I know that he's functioned with the memories of Robbie, and maybe even fooled Reed Richards, but I question whether we've been following Robbie or someone else's evolution in this series!

[Evan Waters]

I wonder if Robbie is up on his tetanus shots.

Unfortunately there's already a Marvel character named "Lockjaw".

[Haunt]

Finding out Penance was going to be speedball wasnt the greatest thing i thought i would read, but after reading the letter to his mother i figured, ok then it has potential, but one thing makes me question the entire idea...
If Speedy has the spikes inverted so that the pain can always be with him, then why did he tell the father who shot him he didnt care at all about his daughter or his pain?

because he's a leather-freak with a heart of gold? :confused:

for the record: i like Penance. i just don't like Robbie as Penance.

[Sean Whitmore]

Is it possible to work in comics but hate Super-heroes more than Ennis?

Not unless Marvel gave Doctor Doom a contract.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Third, I recall that Robbie was found miles and miles away from the blast site. All his hair had been burned off. He was not even wearing a complete uniform. How do we actually know that this was really Robbie, and not someone else who has "taken his place?" I know that he's functioned with the memories of Robbie, and maybe even fooled Reed Richards, but I question whether we've been following Robbie or someone else's evolution in this series!

That'd be a good plot point to use in resurrecting the real Robbie 10 years from now, when Geoff Johns comes back to Marvel and everyone's forgotten who Speedball is.


SEAN

[tavella]

he seriously needs another codename. 'Penance' belongs to that Generation X girl and she wears it better. Robbie should just go by 'Spikey Emo Lad' or 'Pathos.' or how about calling him the Irredeemable Scapegoat?


'Pathos' is good, but 'Bathos' would be even more appropriate.

[Sparda]

Speedball going emo might be interesting to check out. At least he's not gonna wear gothic clothing or anything.

[Evan Waters]

Speedball going emo might be interesting to check out. At least he's not gonna wear gothic clothing or anything.

Why bother with goth clothing when you can skip straight to a GWAR costume?

[solarstorm]

Gwar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ryan Day]

just another mopey, whiny, "my-life-is-pain/hell/crap" character. Way to go, Marvel.

That's been Marvel's schtick for almost 50 years . The whole Marvel Universe was built on the principle of "real people" who had real problems even though they were superheroes. The FF were always squabbling and the Thing always moped about being a monster, Spidey was always broke or worrying about Aunt May or not being a hero so he could protect his loved ones - his entire existence as a hero is based largely on guilt about being a selfish jerk, after all. And the X-Men, the prize franchise, rode angst and alienation to the top of the charts for decades: "We're heroes but everyone hates us!" and "Oh no! I can't find my wife after my ex came back from the dead after being possessed by an evil cosmic entity! However will I go on?"

Speedball-Penance is just the next logical step. Okay, perhaps not terribly logical, but it's a hell of a meta-commentary on the evolution of the superhero genre over the past half-century. I hope Ellis does something with that - that would be a funny story.

[yeoman]

God, I wish this were true.

I've just finished reading the Accused portion of Frontline #10, and I must say that I hate Penance. I really dislike where this is going for Robbie. And I really really dislike the idea that he's paining himself much like the assassin in the DaVinci Code. I'm going to ignor any comic that he continues in.

Second, I note that Robbie has said to Reed Richards that he'd like to go back in time and stop all of this from happening. This, to Richards, the man who has Doctor Doom's time machine available to him. Do you really think that he might let him or might go meddling in time, against the warning of the Watcher, to set things right again in Civil War?

Third, I recall that Robbie was found miles and miles away from the blast site. All his hair had been burned off. He was not even wearing a complete uniform. How do we actually know that this was really Robbie, and not someone else who has "taken his place?" I know that he's functioned with the memories of Robbie, and maybe even fooled Reed Richards, but I question whether we've been following Robbie or someone else's evolution in this series!


I've largely assumed five years from now that Dwayne, Robbie, Nita and Microbe will be dropped off by an alien race that kidnapped them to save their dying civilization from, I dunno, let's say The Bi-beast. Because it's funny to say Bi-beast.

Then they'll find out about that those clones that mere meant to temporarily replace them really screwed up.

[yeoman]

That'd be a good plot point to use in resurrecting the real Robbie 10 years from now, when Geoff Johns comes back to Marvel and everyone's forgotten who Speedball is.


SEAN

I still vote for alien adbductions and Space Phantoms/Skrulls/Loki.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I actually kind of liked Speedball's transformation - we've gradually seen it happen, and every stage has made sense from a psychological perspective. Whether or not he was truly to blame for Stamford, he's been forced to take that weight on his shoulders - he resisted as long as he could, but in the end it broke him. What we see now is a deeply damaged man put together from the remains of the boy he used to be. It's really quite interesting, especially because the human mind is remarkably resilient - even under these intense circumstances, it's not impossible that the old Robbie could re-emerge in some way, no matter how much he consciously wants to remain Penance.

On the other hand, I can see how it annoys Speedball fans no end - unlike reality, where anything can happen to anyone, fiction is largely held to consistent standards of storytelling. Having a character like Speedball, created and presented as an all-ages fun adventure hero, suddenly thrust into a wholly adult, psychologically dark storyline is kind of like an episode of Friends where a serial rapist/killer breaks into the girls' apartment and takes out Rachel - in the real world, horrible things like that can happen to people who live normal, 'PG-rated' lives, but we're not primed to expect or accept it when it happens in stories. It's quite an unusual characteristic of comics that it can happen, that a character from a PG-rated comic exists in the same 'world' as the M-rated stories, and can be moved from one to the other. The difference between a mature evolution of a once-simple story into a dark and mature one, and a disrespectful gutting of an existing character to fit him into an inappropriate story, isn't much more than a hair's breadth, and even the best attempt will probably leave some fans justifiably incensed.

In any case, I'm not really interested in the new T-bolts - that kind of more-twisted-than-thou storytelling doesn't appeal to me - but at least Penance is a character with an interesting psychology behind him.

[Michael P]

Finding out Penance was going to be speedball wasnt the greatest thing i thought i would read, but after reading the letter to his mother i figured, ok then it has potential, but one thing makes me question the entire idea...
If Speedy has the spikes inverted so that the pain can always be with him, then why did he tell the father who shot him he didnt care at all about his daughter or his pain?

Because he's being written poorly?

I'm not at all surprised that Ellis was able to see the inherent ludicrosity and inappropriateness of this move. 'Cause, y'know, he can actually keep his inner 13-year-old in check.

[Cthulhudrew]

Can't wait for him and Rage to meet up again, and Rage to say- "Man- what the hell's wrong with you? I know I went all angsty when my gramma was killed, but you're just ridiculous."

Fortunately, this too shall pass. Robbie will get back to being Speedball one of these days, I'm sure.

[XPac]

Can't wait for him and Rage to meet up again, and Rage to say- "Man- what the hell's wrong with you? I know I went all angsty when my gramma was killed, but you're just ridiculous."

Fortunately, this too shall pass. Robbie will get back to being Speedball one of these days, I'm sure.

After seeing Speedball, I'd actually expect him and Rage to exchange the numbers of their tailors.

[XPac]

Because he's being written poorly?

I'm not at all surprised that Ellis was able to see the inherent ludicrosity and inappropriateness of this move. 'Cause, y'know, he can actually keep his inner 13-year-old in check.

I think it had more to do with Speedball wanting the father to hate him and not feel sorry for him.

[mandog]

I dislike Robbies new direction, But what I really hate is the CW Frontline book in general. It is easily the worst book I've read in ages. Lame, heavy handed, melodramatic dreck.

[NickThompson]

Geez, isn't ANYONE fun anymore???

Nextwave made a bunch of characters fun. Thus, Ellis will for a short time be writing a book where some said "Where is the fun? Why is everything so serious?" and another where some said "How dare you take these serious characters and make them into jokes?" :)

[Machinedude]

As I mentioned before in this thread, I am not comfortable with the way he is being portrayed. Perhaps if they didn't emphasize that he "likes" the pain, but instead he just accepts the pain as the price for being able to do his job I would be a bit more comfortable with things.

In fact I think I would find that more interesting than he is now. He's feeling terrible about what has happened and wants to make amends. His power(s) are based on his pain so he just accepts it as the price he must pay to do his job.

Instead we are going to get: Hit me/spank me I've been bad/Give me another/Yes that felt great/etc. A bad domination movie!:eek:

[lonewolf23k]

I actually kind of liked Speedball's transformation - we've gradually seen it happen, and every stage has made sense from a psychological perspective. (snip)

Nope. Sorry, but Speedball's transformation only makes sense to me if I assume he suffered some serious brain damage during the Stamford explosion. I could accept him feeling guilty about it, but turning into Gimp-Boy is just fricking retarted.

It would've been far more realistic for Robbie to just quit any and all acts of heroism altogether, and instead looking back at it as "Childish Mistakes".

[StoneGold]

It would've been far more realistic for Robbie to just quit any and all acts of heroism altogether, and instead looking back at it as "Childish Mistakes".

Says someone who has apparently never watched the 38 episodes of MASH or so that dealt with stuff like this.


But seriously, do you really know what would be more realistic in a situation like this? Know anyone who has gone through it personally?

[XPac]

Nope. Sorry, but Speedball's transformation only makes sense to me if I assume he suffered some serious brain damage during the Stamford explosion. I could accept him feeling guilty about it, but turning into Gimp-Boy is just fricking retarted.

It would've been far more realistic for Robbie to just quit any and all acts of heroism altogether, and instead looking back at it as "Childish Mistakes".

In the superhero world, stress like this turns people into heroes or villians. Characters don't just sit around depressed in the background like they do in real life.

Something tragic occurs, and a person slaps on a pair of tights and becomes a force for good or evil. In Speedball's case he already was that, so they just changed the tights and gimmick a bit.

In real life, this sort of reaction might be a bit of a stretch... you don't dress up like Bat after your parents get shot in real life for example. But in terms of comicbook psychology, it fits reasonably well.

[MAK15]

In real life, this sort of reaction might be a bit of a stretch... you don't dress up like Bat after your parents get shot in real life for example. But in terms of comicbook psychology, it fits reasonably well.

that explanation makes sense to me.
so why do I feel that other people are still going to argue about this?

[lonewolf23k]

that explanation makes sense to me.
so why do I feel that other people are still going to argue about this?

Because while you and some others might accept Marvel's BS explanation about Robbie's transformation into Gimp-Boy, I have a less high tolerance for BS, and Civil War's already overloaded it as it is...

[SKJAM!]

Looking at the way he's been treated lately, I have to wonder if Speedball was ever secretly a member of the Giffen Justice League.

[Jack Zodiac]

I think, of all the mishandlings during Civil War, this is the worse. And whether or not they've noticed, Marvel's crafted a pretty accurate piece of metatext in the character, reflecting the industry today.

Robbie was a fun, happy, easy-going, spandex-clad hero who enjoyed what he was doing and had fun doing it. He was a hero. Then, his life was completely changed by one accident that killed hundred of innocent people, including all of his team mates, and made him a nationally-hated criminal. Now, he's a shade of his former self, he hates his life, and the only way he can use his powers is by cutting himself. He's become the representation of comics today: changing fun into grim.

[lonewolf23k]

I think, of all the mishandlings during Civil War, this is the worse. And whether or not they've noticed, Marvel's crafted a pretty accurate piece of metatext in the character, reflecting the industry today.

Robbie was a fun, happy, easy-going, spandex-clad hero who enjoyed what he was doing and had fun doing it. He was a hero. Then, his life was completely changed by one accident that killed hundred of innocent people, including all of his team mates, and made him a nationally-hated criminal. Now, he's a shade of his former self, he hates his life, and the only way he can use his powers is by cutting himself. He's become the representation of comics today: changing fun into grim.

That's it exactly. Perfectly. Jack, you just summed up everything that's wrong about Speedball turning into Gimp-Boy (my new name for "Penance")

[XPac]

I think, of all the mishandlings during Civil War, this is the worse. And whether or not they've noticed, Marvel's crafted a pretty accurate piece of metatext in the character, reflecting the industry today.

Robbie was a fun, happy, easy-going, spandex-clad hero who enjoyed what he was doing and had fun doing it. He was a hero. Then, his life was completely changed by one accident that killed hundred of innocent people, including all of his team mates, and made him a nationally-hated criminal. Now, he's a shade of his former self, he hates his life, and the only way he can use his powers is by cutting himself. He's become the representation of comics today: changing fun into grim.

I think what you wrote explains exactly why Speedball was the perfect person to do this to.

Peter Parker is the light hearted guy that will not break. But what happens when someone DOES break... what happens a good light hearted person can't carry the weight of the world like Peter can? This is what happens.

[Alan2099]

No, the perfect person to do this with would have been a new character that didn't have any fans.

It can be done, Marvel team-up crafted an intresting story of a likeable everyJoe type that got super powers and just wasn't cut out to be a hero, and it ended tragically. And that story still seemed more upbeat than this one.

Alos, Spider-man HAS broke before, he spent quite a while going all dark and violent saying things like, "the man is dead, I AM THE SPIDER!". It sucked, but not nearly as bad as this does.

And Speedball has seen worse. He walked away from fight with a villian that killed lots of people. Recently he walked away from a fight with a villian that killed EVERYBODY in the hero set, except him and a fewother weirdos, then he ended up in the future knowing he'd never be able to go home again. While not exactly the same thing, he handled watching all his freinds die and never getting to go home again thousands of times better than he handled this.

[XPac]

No, the perfect person to do this with would have been a new character that didn't have any fans.

It can be done, Marvel team-up crafted an intresting story of a likeable everyJoe type that got super powers and just wasn't cut out to be a hero, and it ended tragically. And that story still seemed more upbeat than this one.

Alos, Spider-man HAS broke before, he spent quite a while going all dark and violent saying things like, "the man is dead, I AM THE SPIDER!". It sucked, but not nearly as bad as this does.

And Speedball has seen worse. He walked away from fight with a villian that killed lots of people. Recently he walked away from a fight with a villian that killed EVERYBODY in the hero set, except him and a fewother weirdos, then he ended up in the future knowing he'd never be able to go home again. While not exactly the same thing, he handled watching all his freinds die and never getting to go home again thousands of times better than he handled this.


Spidey bent... but he never broke. There's a difference. And that's part of what Peter Parker the hero he is... all that's happen to him from day one and with the death of his uncle and he's STILL the same Peter Parker. And he always will be.

But not everyone is the man Peter Parker is. Robbie was a good kid, but he folded when things turned out the way they did. I don't knock him for it... but the point is that certain heroes are icons for a reason.

Could they have tried this with a new character? Probably. But it wouldn't have the same effect, because no one would have cared.

[Alan2099]

If nobody cares when you write something, it's because you're not a good writer. A good writer can tell a story about a nobody and make them into something worth talking about.

Instead, they went for the easy out and the cheap shock value, which really seems the basis for most of the things happening in Civil War.

Style over Subtance, True believer! (Note: "Style" not actually guaranteed to be good.)

[MAK15]

No, the perfect person to do this with would have been a new character that didn't have any fans.
.

part of the reason people at the companies due this is to incite reactions out of fans. I mean, look at Speed ball, if this never happened to him, do you know what would have?

nothing. and for a comic character, that can't happen.

you can't always have a character stay the same no matter the circumstance.
Eddie Brock became extremely religous and sold his costume after finding out he had cancer.
Batman became paranoid of the super human community for a while after learning people he trusted wiped his memory from the Dr. Light incident. (although he now seems to have gotten over it)

there's prolly dozens of characters that have had changes, minor or major, to thier character. These changes keep these charcters interesting.

If you can think of a reason why comic book characters shouldn't change, I'd like to hear it.

[Jack Zodiac]

If nobody cares when you write something, it's because you're not a good writer. A good writer can tell a story about a nobody and make them into something worth talking about.

Instead, they do the least surprising and most revolting thing they could do and completely deface an established character and turn him into something ugly. Like I said, it's a perfect example of how comics treat their happier heroes now- crushing them until they can make them dark and gritty. And, surprisingly, he still isn't the most out of character player in this entire event.

[MAK15]

If nobody cares when you write something, it's because you're not a good writer. A good writer can tell a story about a nobody and make them into something worth talking about.

Instead, they went for the easy out and the cheap shock value, which really seems the basis for most of the things happening in Civil War.

Style over Subtance, True believer! (Note: "Style" not actually guaranteed to be good.)

but, nobody knows about your new Joe good guy who you just brought in from marvel team up. so no one will care if he turns into this new, spiky character. They'll read it, and say, "huh. I have no idea who this is". and then lose interest altogether.

Hell, half of the reason I wanted to read Thunderbotls #110 was to see more Venom and Green Goblin. But after Frontline, I wanna see how Robbie does in his new role as Penance

[wulfstone]

i kinda think he ;ooks like Voldo from soul blade

[Jack Zodiac]

part of the reason people at the companies due this is to incite reactions out of fans. I mean, look at Speed ball, if this never happened to him, do you know what would have?

nothing. and for a comic character, that can't happen.

Nothing?

He could have remained steadfast in his position that registration was a short-sighted answer to a bigger problem, and that the government was going about it entirely wrong. He could have taken a stand against the entire thing. Instead, his powers changed into something ridiculously unnecessary, his demeanor changed completely... he was almost completely replaced by the "idea" of what Penance is.

It's an unnecessary change, an unoriginal idea, and an unintended metaphor.

[Alan2099]

Change is one thing, there's nothing wrong with a bit of change, but taking a character and ditching their looks, powers, name, personality, costume, name, and way of thinking is more than a bit of change. Nor has the character been written in a way to suggest that he should have changed. It goes against every previous apperance of the character.

Even the ones that were supposedly setting him on this track. Yeah, he was getting a bit darker, but that was just a bit, this is like jumping immedialtey from just learning how to swim to being an Olympic gold metalist. It's too much too soon and destroys the suspension of disbelive that comics are made of, plus it doesn't really accomplish anything changing the character like this.

I've bascially heard two opinnions on the change.
1) This doesn't work at all
and
2) I've never read anything about Speedball before but now I'm intrested.

So, if they had never actualy read anything about the guy, why does it matter that it IS him?

[XPac]

If nobody cares when you write something, it's because you're not a good writer. A good writer can tell a story about a nobody and make them into something worth talking about.

Instead, they went for the easy out and the cheap shock value, which really seems the basis for most of the things happening in Civil War.

Style over Subtance, True believer! (Note: "Style" not actually guaranteed to be good.)

If you were to kill off the Clint Barton Hawkeye, more people would likely give a dam than if you were to kill off the new Young Avenger Hawkeye. I don't care if you ressurect Shakesphere himself to write the dam comic... more people will care about Clint because overtime writers have given us a reason to give a dam.

It's like killing off that Grasshopper guy in GLA... he was created just to he could be killed off, so it's tough to give a dam. If they create a character just to become Penance then there's only so much impact you're going to get when he becomes Penance.

With Speedball, you have a character with history. He didn't have a huge fan following or anything, but people know who he was. So which his status quo was changed, it actually mattered to people.

For the fans of Speedball, yes it does suck. But that's the danger in being a fan of a C list character (and we all a few of the C listers we love and root for). They're not cash cows... that makes them red shirts. They can be killed, they can be changed, they can be turned into super villians.

[MAK15]

Nothing?

He could have remained steadfast in his position that registration was a short-sighted answer to a bigger problem, and that the government was going about it entirely wrong. He could have taken a stand against the entire thing. Instead, his powers changed into something ridiculously unnecessary, his demeanor changed completely... he was almost completely replaced by the "idea" of what Penance is.

It's an unnecessary change, an unoriginal idea, and an unintended metaphor.

but he did stand up to the registration act. And look what it did to him: being beaten by cops, being beaten and stabbed by criminals, being shot, having bullet fragments lodged in your spine, and then being held hostage by criminals.

lets be reasonable here: if ANY of those things happened to one of us, it would at least mean some therapy. But Robbie got the full house of guilt trippin (bein called a 'baby killer' prolly didnt help in prison) definetly made him feel more responsible than he probably was.

Of course, he could still feel responsible for the whole thing, since it WAS HIS IDEA to attack a few high level villains like nitro, instead of calling the avnegers.

his friends deaths could probably be on his mind, kinda like how Spider-Man was partially responsible for his uncle's death by not cathcing a crook.

[PatchMadripoor]

i know this should be on another thread/topic, but I cannot wait for the new Thunderbolts take on the Loners, who will have the REAL Penance of Generation X as a member.

As for Robbie's change from the light hearted Speedball into the heavy Penance...

...with the other issues Robbie has faced before, he has never had the guilt that everyone and himself has thrown upon him. Peter Parker has always felt guilty and used that guilt to rise try to do better. This time, Robbie spirit has been broken under the guilt and has this self-mutilation death-wish. He didn't have the support structure Peter Parker did, with Aunt May or Mary Jane or his other close friends because they were either dead because of him or had turned against him, leaving robbie to rot in jail.

[Alan2099]

Of course, he could still feel responsible for the whole thing, since it WAS HIS IDEA to attack a few high level villains like nitro, instead of calling the avnegers.
High Level?

Those guys?

At the level they normally opperate at, they shouldn't have even been able to hurt Speedball. If you consdier the New Warriors C-listers, those guys were defintley somewhere about D list and that's only because Nitro was accidentaly involved in the death of Captain Marvel.

[MAK15]

High Level?

Those guys?

At the level they normally opperate at, they shouldn't have even been able to hurt Speedball. If you consdier the New Warriors C-listers, those guys were defintley somewhere about D list and that's only because Nitro was accidentaly involved in the death of Captain Marvel.

you have a point there, but still: other members of his team said "we should call the avnegers" and robbie says: "Namorita! take care of your pimple!" and then everyone goes esplodey.

[XPac]

High Level?

Those guys?

At the level they normally opperate at, they shouldn't have even been able to hurt Speedball. If you consdier the New Warriors C-listers, those guys were defintley somewhere about D list and that's only because Nitro was accidentaly involved in the death of Captain Marvel.

The problem was not that they couldn't handle Nitro... it's just that they screwed up in regards to picking an unecessary fight across the street from a yard full of children. I won't argue it was their fault, nor do I think it's a case of Nitro not being in their league... but they screwed up. And being the good responsible person that he is, deep down he did feel guilt about that. A lesser person wouldn't have, but he did. The only problem is that guilt destroyed him.

[John Nowak]

Perhaps - if Robbie's new powers need pain to activate, maybe Squirrel Girl will become an expert sadist to help out. I shouldn't think that's hot, but...

(She could practise on Mr. Immortal until she gets the hang of non-lethal damage.)

I just have the terrible feeling that this is one of those times that the actual story will be worse than the jokes made in advance.

[John Nowak]

Obviously you forgot about the Speedball war of '73 or how Christopher Colombus sailed across the ocean because thats where he heard Speedball comics where made.

Also the "Survival Rule of Three."

You know; you can survive three minutes without oxygen; three days without water; three weeks without food; three decades without Speedball.

That's why life expectancy was so low in the PS* Era.

____
*Prior to Speedball

[lllhouselll]

speedball = sucks , penance = emo

all in all robbie baldwin should be dead


bring back namorita!!

[Harold of the Rocks]

To those that say Robbie/Speedball was the wrong character to 'do this to', a couple of thoughts...

I have never seen a 20+ page thread about Robbie/Speedball on these forums. Probably not even a five page thread. So, the interest is definitely there -- now that something was done with this character.The reason why I feel he is the right character for this transformation is because he has an established history of being an upbeat, fun-loving person. Doing the same to a 'new' character as some have proposed would have almost no emotional impact. Obviously, this literary transformation of this character has a lot of emotions -- both positive and negative -- tied into it, otherwise this thread would be 4 pages tops.I never cared for Speedball, now I do. And I'm the first in line to say I'm bored with 'angry guy' characters like Hulk and Wolverine. The tragedy that he experienced changed him so much, and that speaks to the guilt, remorse, anger, and self-hatred he was hiding and denying. This move struck a nerve with fans of the character because he changed so much... as if to say he shouldn't have. On this I will agree to disagree. Stamford 'broke' Robbie Baldwin, and as far as I perceive comic 'realism' (the parts we want to reflect reality), this was realistic. I mean, the guy became Timothy McVeigh overnight (I mean in terms of public hatred, not intentions). It's a wonder he didn't attempt suicide.An alternative to this clamor for it happening to a new character would be to introduce a new replacement for Speedball. That would be easy. I like taking an established character that (honestly) wasn't on most fans' radars and demonstrating the depths of this tragedy by making a man transform himself in response. It wouldn't have the same weight from a new character; humorous quips and a fun-loving attitude don't require that same depth. That's why I say introduce another 'Squirrel Boy' for those who want that.Those prone to extreme hyperbole: can we stop with the prostitution, molestation, genocide analogies? What you have is a character who changed dramatically in the face of overwhelming emotions from a tragedy he considers himself partially responsible for... that happens all the time. People do actually grow and change in the real world; I am definitely not the same person I was a year ago... so am I acting 'out of character'? Maybe to some observers... the truth is I changed my character. Robbie Baldwin not changing would be an example of much worse writing than what 'those-who-want-to-compete-for-the-most-outlandish-analogy' are claiming we have witnessed. You don't have to like the change, but once Speedball experienced what he did, I think you do need to appreciate that he had to change. Him not changing would demonstrate more disdain for the character -- demonstrating he had ZERO maturity. How the change manifested and how it could have been done 'better' is still open for debate. Jenkins, Millar, whomever, owed it to all of us to have Robbie change... it shows the writers respect the intelligence of their audience. To not change him would be an insult.Remember when the possibility existed that Robbie died? Those of you who still can't get over this change, yet clamored for him to remain alive -- be careful what you wish for... ;)

Peace to all

[lonewolf23k]

I've bascially heard two opinnions on the change.
1) This doesn't work at all
and
2) I've never read anything about Speedball before but now I'm intrested.

So, if they had never actualy read anything about the guy, why does it matter that it IS him?

Exactly. This ain't Speedball. They killed off Speedball and used his remains to create Gimp-Boy.

Those of us who loved Speedball are pissed. Those who didn't like Speedball don't see what's wrong with it and are interested in Gimp-Boy.

That's the problem. We Speedball fans have to suffer so Gimp-Boy fans can get something "interesting".

[Sean Whitmore]

Huh. Now I'm not sure whether I like "Gimpball" or "Emoball" better. :confused:

"Gimpball" slides off the tongue easier, but it's more of an esoteric reference. "Emoball" is immediately understood, and has a nice bounce to it.

Decisions, decisions...


SEAN

[Locue]

I vote "Speedgimp".

And Penance will be fun. Speedball was a boring character I wanted to whack on the head with a shovel. Now, when he's this new Penance kid, he's interesting. Or at least likely to be interesting. Will he ever get over it? Will he sleep in that suit as well? How will he go to the bathroom? Will he go to the bathroom? Will he be let into a bathroom?

Aces High, boys!

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Exactly. This ain't Speedball. They killed off Speedball and used his remains to create Gimp-Boy.
As I said before, I understand perfectly why many Speedball fans are irate about this... but isn't what you just said exactly what the storyline is all about? "Robbie Baldwin is dead. Speedball is dead. Now it's time for Penance." Not a lazy stunt on the writers' parts, swapping Speedball's personality for someone else's and pretending it's the same guy, but an evolution of the character - a dramatic and violent evolution, to be sure, but born from dramatic and violent circumstances. I'm quite happy with fans detesting Speedball's new incarnation and saying it should never have happened, but I really can't see a solid argument that it could never have happened. Under the extreme circumstances he went through, I think it's quite plausible that he would ultimately - psychologically speaking - kill Robbie/Speedball, and exist as something new and very different.

[Ravenheart]

I liked Speedball in the original series and when he first joined the New Warriors.After awhile he just became a joke.His new identity should be interesting to watch in the upcoming months.Besides after what happend with Nitro,did people really expect him to go back to the old fun loving,goofy character?

[dopexvii]

i cant believe speedball has fans
he was as dull as dish water
nobody is THAT happy go lucky not for twenty years of print and gets away with it, it's just.... two dimensional
the way i see it is that rabbies been given a huge dose of reality all to quick and like a fish out of water has chosen this way to cope, he's always been a characters of extremes, extreme happyness now we see the flipside
and for once im actually intrested, i'l be picking this one up for sure
sorry for those fans of speedball it's never nice when you lose a character you've enjoyed reading
but to be fair 1) they said they were going to 'off him for over a year
2) least he didnt die in the explosion theres still something to be retconned later =P
3) the last book he was in flopped (bar league of loosers that was cool)

[IamtheRock3]

As I said before, I understand perfectly why many Speedball fans are irate about this... but isn't what you just said exactly what the storyline is all about? "Robbie Baldwin is dead. Speedball is dead. Now it's time for Penance." Not a lazy stunt on the writers' parts, swapping Speedball's personality for someone else's and pretending it's the same guy, but an evolution of the character - a dramatic and violent evolution, to be sure, but born from dramatic and violent circumstances. I'm quite happy with fans detesting Speedball's new incarnation and saying it should never have happened, but I really can't see a solid argument that it could never have happened. Under the extreme circumstances he went through, I think it's quite plausible that he would ultimately - psychologically speaking - kill Robbie/Speedball, and exist as something new and very different.


my complaint is it insnt a gradualy Evolution. It a suddne and Crazy one

People use Beecher from OZ as an example of what happen to speedball. But forget Beecher change over a course of seasons, with him taking small steps into depravity. Didnt spend 2 week there and decided to become an S/M junkie. For instance his parents were always nice but pretty much turn to him over night cause it fit the story

I aint like Robbie never face big odds before. People forget as goofy as New warrior were, they did get the Job done against some big threats

Sure nonody saying it COULD never happen

Batgirl COULD change into a maniac
Max Lord could turn Evil
Batman could become A socpathc machine gun willing guy if giving the right push
Oracle could get drunk and go on girls gone wild

Almost anything if You set the right circumstance Plausble. Doesnt make it good ideas, and does it make it out of charcter or Bad writing

[Doom Hammer]

This change may defy his previous characterization, bt only because he's never faced anything like this before.

He's lost his teammates and friends. He's been shot, stabbed, and beaten. And regardless of whether he was responsible for Stamford, everyone in the country is screaming in his face, "You are responsible for the deaths of over six hundred people." The incident created the Civil War, and as such he's initiated all the struggle and terrible things we've seen throughout this event. He's not a super-hero anymore, by any stretch. He's lost everything. And now he can only access his powers through pain.

How does he react to that? He'd be inhuman not to be crushed by that guilt, and the pressure of it all. There's no telling how he'd react to that situation, it's more than he, and most of the characters, have ever faced. And he's all alone. So though the actual transformation may be a bit goofy, the writer's interpretation of his reaction is JUST as valid as anyone else's, and ultimately, he has the pens.

[IamtheRock3]

This change may defy his previous characterization, bt only because he's never faced anything like this before.

He's lost his teammates and friends. He's been shot, stabbed, and beaten. And regardless of whether he was responsible for Stamford, everyone in the country is screaming in his face, "You are responsible for the deaths of over six hundred people." The incident created the Civil War, and as such he's initiated all the struggle and terrible things we've seen throughout this event. He's not a super-hero anymore, by any stretch. He's lost everything. And now he can only access his powers through pain.

How does he react to that? He'd be inhuman not to be crushed by that guilt, and the pressure of it all. There's no telling how he'd react to that situation, it's more than he, and most of the characters, have ever faced. And he's all alone. So though the actual transformation may be a bit goofy, the writer's interpretation of his reaction is JUST as valid as anyone else's, and ultimately, he has the pens.


I Feel GUILTY and Depress

So I really become S/m Leather Wearing Warrior into pain with new set of powers is more then a bit goofy


Super hero fact pain all the time

Batman and Daredevil had the worst years or there Super hero lives. Would anyone be cool with them becoming the Geek from Pulp Fiction.

Take this Hal Jordan going Crazy
Batgirl going nuts

People who knew and like the charcter were ticked

People who didnt thought it was either a good idea or didn't care

not not an insult

It makes snse. If one doesnt know are even like the charcter a Change may seem good. Because maybe it will make you interested in the charcter that you weren't interest in before even if the change rather QUESTIONBLE

but those who like the charcter may think it a bit off.

me not a huge speedball fan, but understand it very off

[Will.S]

If Paul Jenkins dedicated a few more issues to explain Robbie's sudden change of heart it would have gone down much better overall. As it stands right now I can only attribute his sudden change to both the physical and psychological trauma that he's been though (i.e. brain damage or his sudden power change messing up his personality).

I view Penance as an important phase for the character regarding losing his more youthful irresponsible traits that Millar wrote into the character during CW rather than a permanent change to the character. So in the long run Speedball can retain his fun nature but by experience he's not going to act as wreckless.

[ShaggyB]

I for one never liked speedball, even back in the new warriors prime time in the 90s he just didnt do it for me. Now i could still care less but atleast i can relate to why hes doign the GimpBall thing. (my vote is cast)

not sure if i'll want to read him now or not, but i can safely say that he didnt go emo. when stamford blew he truely died, robbie was a broken man from that point on.

[Paragon Kobold]

I was never a big fan of Speedball myself, but regardless of his former identity, the character concept for 'Penance' reads like he was designed by a fourteen year old goth kid with scars on his wrist.

I can't even understand how the creators at Marvel can explain their plot ideas to each other with a straight face any more.

[Evan Waters]

I've bascially heard two opinnions on the change.
1) This doesn't work at all
and
2) I've never read anything about Speedball before but now I'm intrested.

So, if they had never actualy read anything about the guy, why does it matter that it IS him?

You're forgetting:

3) I've never read anything about Speedball before but this is still dumb.

It's just a comically bad idea no matter how much psychological justification you put behind it.

[lonewolf23k]

I just remembered something.. The Speedball we all love still does exist...

Time displaced in the year 2099, following events in Marvel Team-Up where he and a few other heroes survived a superhero holocaust which was erased from history, leaving those heroes to exist out of time...

So there's hope he may one day come back to the present.. ...And we wouldn't even have to get rid of Gimpball. Heck, seeing those two interact (fight) might actually be entertaining...

[Paragon Kobold]

If Marvel Team-Up was still going they could hava a Penance/Blacklash issue.


The only way this could be even more disturbing is if it had been Susan Storm in the suit.

[Shellhead]

If Marvel Team-Up was still going they could hava a Penance/Blacklash issue.


The only way this could be even more disturbing is if it was Susan Storm in the suit.

I think that her Malice costume was sufficiently kinky for the Penance fans.

[Phrozen]

I think that her Malice costume was sufficiently kinky for the Penance fans.

Speedball must of been a real Soul Caliber fan because he based his suit after Voldo.

[John Nowak]

I think that her Malice costume was sufficiently kinky for the Penance fans.

I have to say that the bit in that storyline I really liked was Daredevil's perception of what was going on. Everyone else saw a woman in bondage gear and people being thrown all over the place by her. Daredevil didn't see Sue; he saw her invisible force field extending pseudopods all over the place; and after a bit Reed noticed that Daredevil kept saying "It" instead of "She" and realized ... Daredevil was blind in visible light.

Not my favorite story, but a very nice moment.

[Psyco panda]

I vote "Speedgimp".

And Penance will be fun. Speedball was a boring character I wanted to whack on the head with a shovel. Now, when he's this new Penance kid, he's interesting. Or at least likely to be interesting. Will he ever get over it? Will he sleep in that suit as well? How will he go to the bathroom? Will he go to the bathroom? Will he be let into a bathroom?

Aces High, boys!

Just because Speedball wasn't an interesting character won't make Penance any more interesting.

The only way Penance will be fun is if they play him off as utterly ridiculous as the character concept is. They should have him run around screaming things like 'You don't understand me!" He should have Linkin Park and Evanescense on headphones inside his armor. And he has to write poetry, really really bad poetry. Then Penance will be fun. :)

[MAK15]

Just because Speedball wasn't an interesting character won't make Penance any more interesting.

The only way Penance will be fun is if they play him off as utterly ridiculous as the character concept is. They should have him run around screaming things like 'You don't understand me!" He should have Linkin Park and Evanescense on headphones inside his armor. And he has to write poetry, really really bad poetry. Then Penance will be fun. :)

but I hate all that stuff, and I wanna like this penance guy

[Cthulhudrew]

No, the perfect person to do this with would have been a new character that didn't have any fans.

Better yet, use a character that's already gone this route. They already did this story with Rage back in the day.

Heck, as others have said, Night Thrasher would be an easier buy for this sort of story, with his overdeveloped sense of responsibility. If he had seen his team go through what happened, I could see him feeling responsible and really going the more hard-core route like this, because he was already walking that edge (even the Punisher noted it early on).

To take a character like Speedball and go a complete 180 with him this way seems really... well, over the top and hard to swallow, IMO.

[lonewolf23k]

but I hate all that stuff, and I wanna like this penance guy

...Why would you?? :confused:

[StoneGold]

To take a character like Speedball and go a complete 180 with him this way seems really... well, over the top and hard to swallow, IMO.

Honestly, I don't understand that. Take a generally happy person. Put them through the worst event possible, kill off their friends, cut them off from family, make the entire world hate them. Isn't it harder to swallow that they'd stay all happy go lucky?

[Dazzler]

I suppose everyone has to deal with problems by turning into an angsty s&m club reject? it's hard for me to swallow that every character that has horrible things happen to them has to become a dark, brooding, circa 1993 throwback. for once i would like characters to deal with problems in different, more interesting ways than running the dark route. it's done done done.

i like speedball. me no like penance II. it's stupid.

--Dazz

[Alan2099]

Honestly, I don't understand that. Take a generally happy person. Put them through the worst event possible, kill off their friends, cut them off from family, make the entire world hate them. Isn't it harder to swallow that they'd stay all happy go lucky?

There's a big difference between not being happy go lucky and designing a costume that stick over a hundred spikes into your body and talking about how much you love the pain.

Punisher is more mentally stable than that.

[Dazzler]

well it just goes to show that all you have to do is take a unique character, slap a cheesy "kewl" spike suit on them, give them a cliched dark personality, and all the poor little misunderstood nerds will suddenly be able to relate to how nobody understands him.

GAG.

--Dazz

[The Lucky One]

I can't see where I'd bring anything more to this debate, so I'll just post what I think is the most accurate summation of the situation I've read yet: Paul O'Brien's review in today's X-Axis:

And now, by way of contrast, we turn to Civil War: Front Line #10. This is the issue where Marvel unveil Penance - their repackaged version of Speedball.

The Speedball fans are, as a whole, up in arms about this one. Personally, I've never especially cared one way or the other about the character, although I can see there's a niche for him as a rare happy-go-lucky hero in the Marvel Universe. Admittedly, it's never led him to any particular success, but at least it was something to mark him out.

Marvel, however, see it another way. They want to spark interest in the character by making him into a dark, angst-ridden hero on loan from the mid-nineties. The concept, believe it or not, is that after the Stamford disaster in Civil War #1, Speedball is now overcome with angst and remorse about all those dead people. He also finds that his powers are now driven by pain. So he has a special suit made for him with lots of spikes on the inside, digging into his body in order to provide him with a permanent source of pain. And just in case anyone hadn't got the point yet, he renames himself Penance.

Where do I start? I'm certainly not outraged by the story in the way that some of Speedball's hardcore fans are. I just think it's the stupidest thing I've read in ages. I was in fits of laughter reading this thing. It's terrible.

Let's spell out the ways in which this really doesn't work.

One: it doesn't make sense in the context of the story. Speedball has spent the last nine issues sulking, protesting his innocence, and showing no obvious signs of wanting to flagellate himself. Suddenly, and completely out of nowhere, he's become a masochist driven by overwhelming guilt. It's not set up properly by the preceding issues.

Two: it's an inherently stupid idea. Of course, the idea of physical pain as a metaphor for emotional pain has been around for centuries, and in itself, it's unobjectionable. But here, they're spelling it out for the slow members of the class in such a way as to strip it of any vestige of subtlety or intelligence. This is a concept that would embarrass a fourteen-year-old poet.

A character like this might work in a few contexts. I can see it working in X-Statix, for example, because Peter Milligan would do it with a nod and a wink, and say "Yes, I know it's ridiculous, but run with me because it's a metaphor." Crucially, though, the character would end up being played for laughs and acknowledged as inherently ridiculous. Warren Ellis might, conceivably, make him work in Thunderbolts if he takes the same approach - laugh at him. But I can't begin to imagine a story in which a character so absurd could successfully be played straight. It certainly isn't this story, which seems to be utterly oblivious to the silliness of the whole thing, and plays it in a terribly sincere, heartfelt fashion.

Three: even if it was a good idea, it would be a bad idea for Speedball. Far from being a logical outgrowth of the character, this is an outright negation of everything that people ever liked about him. It's virtually guaranteed to alienate his existing fans, and if you're not going to attract them, what's the point of doing the story with Speedball? Just create a new character.

Marvel produce a fair number of bad or shoddy comics, but it's been a while since we've had something quite so jawdroppingly stupid. This is a concept that goes straight into that elite category where it's hard to imagine what possessed somebody to commission it in the first place. Aside from a demented belief in the importance of being different for its own sake, what could possibly make somebody think this was a good idea?

I'm clearly meant to find Penance a tragic and compelling superhero drama. The reality is that I haven't laughed so much in months. It's Dark Speedball, for crying out loud. It's the sort of thing people would suggest as a joke if they were asked to parody the worst of the mid-nineties.

This is the most misguided thing I've read since Chuck Austen was booted out of the industry. They've turned Speedball into Emo Boy. How divorced from reality do you have to be, before that starts to sound like a remotely good idea?

-D

[XPac]

Better yet, use a character that's already gone this route. They already did this story with Rage back in the day.

Heck, as others have said, Night Thrasher would be an easier buy for this sort of story, with his overdeveloped sense of responsibility. If he had seen his team go through what happened, I could see him feeling responsible and really going the more hard-core route like this, because he was already walking that edge (even the Punisher noted it early on).

To take a character like Speedball and go a complete 180 with him this way seems really... well, over the top and hard to swallow, IMO.

Not to make this a racial thing... but we've already seen an African American hero in Bill Foster die. If the same thing were to happen to another young teenage African American like Rage odds are Hudlins Panther would have nuked the US by now.

But in all seriousness Speedball works on multiple levels. No one else could have survived Stamford except Speedball (maybe Nova but he's obviously busy elsewhere). And the fact that he was such a nice happy go lucky kid before this makes for a better underlying metaphor for the industry.

[NickThompson]

There's a big difference between not being happy go lucky and designing a costume that stick over a hundred spikes into your body and talking about how much you love the pain.

Punisher is more mentally stable than that.

That's debatable :)

[StoneGold]

There's a big difference between not being happy go lucky and designing a costume that stick over a hundred spikes into your body and talking about how much you love the pain.

Punisher is more mentally stable than that.

First, that wasn't the point I was responding to.

Second, that's not what he did though. He developed a costume that will allow him to continue using his power. It's not like he just randomly decided on needle costume. It's like complaining that Tony Stark couldn't build a pacemaker roughly the size of a bathtub, which would kill him if he used his powers too much. What, couldn't let the sucker run on a second power source?

[StoneGold]

I suppose everyone has to deal with problems by turning into an angsty s&m club reject? it's hard for me to swallow that every character that has horrible things happen to them has to become a dark, brooding, circa 1993 throwback. for once i would like characters to deal with problems in different, more interesting ways than running the dark route. it's done done done.

i like speedball. me no like penance II. it's stupid.

--Dazz

Now you're exaggerating. And wrong. Many other characters have suffered huge personal losses without going all angsty. Or at least any angstier than usual. Keep in mind, the Marvel Universe was founded on the sturm und drang. But Nova just had the the entire Nova corps get killed out from under him for the 14th time, and he's relatively OK. Cap just found out his partner that he left for dead has been trying to kill him, and he's OK, when Iron Man isn't shellacking him. Hulk got sent into space by his buddies, and it's arguable that he's more well adjusted right now than he has been in decades.

[IamtheRock3]

First, that wasn't the point I was responding to.

Second, that's not what he did though. He developed a costume that will allow him to continue using his power. It's not like he just randomly decided on needle costume. It's like complaining that Tony Stark couldn't build a pacemaker roughly the size of a bathtub, which would kill him if he used his powers too much. What, couldn't let the sucker run on a second power source?

yea but he seem to really enjoy the pain thing, the fact it gives him powers is a convient bonus

[StoneGold]

yea but he seem to really enjoy the pain thing, the fact it gives him powers is a convient bonus

Uh huh. And you got this from... oh wait, the scene where he was happy while getting hurt, and his powers came out. So yeah, he's only happy for the pain, and not the powers. No, couldn't be the powers. Has to be the pain. The only explanation for it.

[Sean Whitmore]

I think Paul may be exaggerating the negative effect of darkening Speedball (saying "The Speedball fans are up in arms" sounds almost comical). But I definitly agree with this passage:


Two: it's an inherently stupid idea. Of course, the idea of physical pain as a metaphor for emotional pain has been around for centuries, and in itself, it's unobjectionable. But here, they're spelling it out for the slow members of the class in such a way as to strip it of any vestige of subtlety or intelligence. This is a concept that would embarrass a fourteen-year-old poet.

A character like this might work in a few contexts. I can see it working in X-Statix, for example, because Peter Milligan would do it with a nod and a wink, and say "Yes, I know it's ridiculous, but run with me because it's a metaphor." Crucially, though, the character would end up being played for laughs and acknowledged as inherently ridiculous. Warren Ellis might, conceivably, make him work in Thunderbolts if he takes the same approach - laugh at him. But I can't begin to imagine a story in which a character so absurd could successfully be played straight. It certainly isn't this story, which seems to be utterly oblivious to the silliness of the whole thing, and plays it in a terribly sincere, heartfelt fashion.

And, considering Ellis' reaction to Penance, there's a good chance that he actually will play the idea as tongue-in-cheek as it needs to be so as not to seem too ridiculous.


SEAN

[Will.S]

Now that I think of it, Penance reminds me a bit of both Gray Fox from Metal Gear Solid and Voldo from Soul Calibur.

[Doom Hammer]

I think Paul may be exaggerating the negative effect of darkening Speedball (saying "The Speedball fans are up in arms" sounds almost comical). But I definitly agree with this passage:



And, considering Ellis' reaction to Penance, there's a good chance that he actually will play the idea as tongue-in-cheek as it needs to be so as not to seem too ridiculous.


SEAN


He's right about X-Statix. Most of those characters had metaphorical powers, or ones indicative of their personalities. Penance even looks like someone who needs to be drawn by Mike Allred.

[MAK15]

Uh huh. And you got this from... oh wait, the scene where he was happy while getting hurt, and his powers came out. So yeah, he's only happy for the pain, and not the powers. No, couldn't be the powers. Has to be the pain. The only explanation for it.

I never really thought he looked....'happy'. he seemed to be in genuine pain, he gritted and sweat like a mofo, he did. not once when I read that...oh right, the part with the jail hostage situation.lol. okay, that's a bit different. I think thats more of a happy "hey! I can finally mess with people again!" BOOM!
yeah, Im sure that realizing he still ahs his powers and how to use
'em is a big relief. remember Iceman when the decimation began? thought he was normal, but then it turned out he was alright. and he was happy. not so much for Lorna, though.
So I think the only time Robbo is happy about this whle ordeal was discovering his powers were still there. Apparently, losing your powers in the Marvel U causes some grief to the person.
Remember Jessica Drew? Lost her powers. Became depressed. got 'em again. then got all better.

um, yeah. I think its the power thing that got him happy, not the pain.
and as for the suit: symbolic and useful.
Symbolism: 612 spikes for everyon who died in the stamford accident.
useful: If robbie really puts a number on himself(or with the help of the person hes fighting) he could release enough of his kinetic energy to do something like the picture in Joe Fridays 29

[John Nowak]

I can't see where I'd bring anything more to this debate, so I'll just post what I think is the most accurate summation of the situation I've read yet: Paul O'Brien's review in today's X-Axis:


Sorry to trouble you, but do you have a link to that? Or is it on CBR?

[IamtheRock3]

Uh huh. And you got this from... oh wait, the scene where he was happy while getting hurt, and his powers came out. So yeah, he's only happy for the pain, and not the powers. No, couldn't be the powers. Has to be the pain. The only explanation for it.


It was reaction

after he ask if it hurts

then he said he liked it

So pain a part of it. The whole idea just sound like a Emo Fanfic

The idea that pain can cause his power it just something they add on and excuse to do the Peanance thing. Power never worked that way before

Even though he was depresss, in most of the story he was definat clamming his innocent so the shift was sudden

Lot of heroes go through Dark times, part of the game, but most dont have this extreme charcter change and when it does it seen as bad by the fans who like him

(Hal Jordan, Batgirl going nuts is a find example)

[Beast]

Agreed. He even admits that he likes it when 'Hook Hands' is battering Speedball into people with his head. And then he goes and creates a costume that instead of just causing pain, is outright torture. 613 spikes sticking into his body, with 60 of them the most painful of all. He goes far beyond just a twisted S&M emo goth boy. He makes Hellraiser look like My Little Pony. The concept of someone having to be hurt to use their powers isn't a bad one. It's just the execution here that's outright goddamn ridiculous.

How to do it: Sebastian Shaw from Uncanny X-Men
How to do it 2: Nico from The Runaways
How not to do it: Speedball/Penance/Emoball

[Sean Whitmore]

613 spikes sticking into his body, with 60 of them the most painful of all.

I hope at least two of those spikes are in a place to ensure that this idiot doesn't poison the world with his seed. :)


SEAN

[StoneGold]

Like Robbie wasn't always emo...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/robbieisemo.jpg

[Beast]

I hope at least two of those spikes are in a place to ensure that this idiot doesn't poison the world with his seed. :)


SEAN
Like anyone would want to sleep with him now anyway? Can you imagine what his body looks like outside of the costume? He probably makes Deadpool look attractive.

[The Xenos]

After reading the new issue of Frontline and the fate of Speedball, I couldn't help but think of that Gonna go Listen to Linkin Park image from Something Awful. Here's my remix of it.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7668/linkinparkangst2yvpenanrt4.jpg

[Beast]

Like Robbie wasn't always emo...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/robbieisemo.jpg
You've convinced me. Clearly this panel indicates one day that he'll giddly stick spikes into his flesh and wear a red leather gimp suit. I'm sure he's only a step away from a red hot poker in the ass as well.

[MAK15]

After reading the new issue of Frontline and the fate of Speedball, I couldn't help but think of that Gonna go Listen to Linkin Park image from Something Awful. Here's my remix of it.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7668/linkinparkangst2yvpenanrt4.jpg

I should hate you, but thats just too funny

[StoneGold]

You've convinced me. Clearly this panel indicates one day that he'll giddly stick spikes into his flesh. I'm sure he's only a step away from a red hot poker in the ass as well.

Hey, all I was doing was saying that Robbie has always been emo. You're adding things I didn't say. That's not very nice.

[Beast]

Hey, all I was doing was saying that Robbie has always been emo. You're adding things I didn't say. That's not very nice.
No, he has not always been emo. Having a fight with your dad(?) isn't an example of being emo.

[The Lucky One]

Sorry to trouble you, but do you have a link to that? Or is it on CBR?

www.thexaxis.com

-D

[StoneGold]

No, he has not always been emo. Having a fight with your dad(?) isn't an example of being emo.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. He was in constant battles with his mother and father. Disowned his father. Went through a whole wearing a black trenchcoat phase, I kid you not. He may have been all bouncy bouncy as Speedball, but as Robbie, he was a whiney little putz.

[Beast]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. He was in constant battles with his mother and father. Disowned his father. Went through a whole wearing a black trenchcoat phase, I kid you not. He may have been all bouncy bouncy as Speedball, but as Robbie, he was a whiney little putz.
That's still not Emo. Regardless, Emoball is far beyond Emo. He's a twisted S&M freak.

[StoneGold]

That's still not Emo. Regardless, Emoball is far beyond Emo. He's a twisted S&M freak.

Skinny? Check. Long bangs over one eye? Check. T-shirt for a band? Check. Years of whining because his parents don't really love him, and only use him as collateral in their divorce wars? Check. You're going to have to give me a better definition of emo if you think it's something else.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/robbie1.jpg

And hey, you called him emo, not me. Well, I did, I just was following up on what you said. So now you are saying you were wrong?

[Will.S]

After reading the new issue of Frontline and the fate of Speedball, I couldn't help but think of that Gonna go Listen to Linkin Park image from Something Awful. Here's my remix of it.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7668/linkinparkangst2yvpenanrt4.jpg
Good stuff.

[Beast]

Skinny? Check. Long bangs over one eye? Check. T-shirt for a band? Check. Years of whining because his parents don't really love him, and only use him as collateral in their divorce wars? Check. You're going to have to give me a better definition of emo if you think it's something else.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/robbie1.jpg

And hey, you called him emo, not me. Well, I did, I just was following up on what you said. So now you are saying you were wrong?
No, I'm saying he was never Emo before. And that panel you just posted says he wants to become a courtroom artist. Not exactly a good example of his supposed 'Emoness'.

[patch]

penance harkens back to 90's era forced cool where everything was x-treeeeme.

and worse yet it was a copuot when you consider where robbie's actual cw storyline was heading and the actual prospect of facing down his acusers in an actual court and standing up to the bullying.

but no...he signs a paper, straps on the spikes and poof....everything is a-ok.

thats the biggest travesty of all.

[StoneGold]

No, I'm saying he was never Emo before. And that panel you just posted says he wants to become a courtroom artist. Not exactly a good example of his supposed 'Emoness'.

Dude, he's not being a court reporter. He's figuring out ways to piss off his parents. And you still haven't come up with a definition beyond "that's not emo." Which makes me believe it's a buzzword you picked up on which you have no idea what the hell it means. Please show me I am wrong, because otherwise this is an issue in frustration.

[garin]

The transformation wasn't elegantly handled (c'mon, this is Frontline) but I don't really have a problemw itht he idea of him turning into Penance.

For the Speedball fans: what do you think it would take to break Robbie, to turn him into something like Penance? Is it flatly impossible?

[beyond]

while im skeptical, im kind of anxious to see how he interacts with the other team members (mainly how they react to him). i will give the new run of thunderbolts a try. remember folks, nothing seems to last forever. hawkeyes miraculously back and things are moving forward.

[MAK15]

while im skeptical, im kind of anxious to see how he interacts with the other team members (mainly how they react to him). i will give the new run of thunderbolts a try. remember folks, nothing seems to last forever. hawkeyes miraculously back and things are moving forward.

Im sure most of the team members will treat him like a kid at first, until he makes a big explosion or somtin.

[Beast]

Im sure most of the team members will treat him like a kid at first, until he makes a big explosion or somtin.
They'll probably dump his books and give him swirlies.

[Sean Whitmore]

They'll probably dump his books and give him swirlies.

Maybe he and Steel Spider will kill each other. Ahhh, bliss. :)


SEAN

[MAK15]

They'll probably dump his books and give him swirlies.

dont forget a wedgie through his iron-maiden pants!

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Please tell me the notion of Ellis doing Penance tongue-in-cheek was a joke? :confused: It's one thing to turn a PG character dark and violent, but to then ignore any potential for that side of him to be treated intelligently? Gag me.

[lonewolf23k]

The transformation wasn't elegantly handled (c'mon, this is Frontline) but I don't really have a problemw itht he idea of him turning into Penance.

For the Speedball fans: what do you think it would take to break Robbie, to turn him into something like Penance? Is it flatly impossible?

Well, maybe not impossible, but it would probably take something like an entire year's worth of torture and "You're Responsible!" brainwashing...

Edit: In any case, the only thing I'm looking forward to see Robbie do now is visit Doc Samson for some much-needed psychological counciling...

[Paragon Kobold]

Edit: In any case, the only thing I'm looking forward to see Robbie do now is visit Doc Samson for some much-needed psychological counciling...

I get the feeling Doc Samson will be very busy in the post Civil War era.

[Beast]

Please tell me the notion of Ellis doing Penance tongue-in-cheek was a joke? :confused: It's one thing to turn a PG character dark and violent, but to then ignore any potential for that side of him to be treated intelligently? Gag me.
Honestly, very few people can take what happen to Robbie seriously. So I don't blame Ellis.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Honestly, very few people can take what happen to Robbie seriously. So I don't blame Ellis.

This wouldn't be on my laugh list of current Marvel if it wasn't so over the top silly. Can ya picture the meeting that took place to make this decison ?

I'm pulling Thunderbolts and even I'm laughin at this.

[ducklord]

One possible ray of hope:

Over in Nextwave, Warren Ellis just spent a year pulling down the pants and laughing at characters like our surprisingly cherished Emoball (yes, I've decided to go with "Emoball"... the sporks have spoken). Hopefully, he hasn't gotten the giggles out of his system...

The only question is whether Ellis can immediately turn this around by mocking it from day one, or whether this will be one of those Legendarily Bad Comic Ideas like "You've All Been Reading About the Clone for the Past 15 Years" or "Let's Switch Monarch's Identity at the Last Minute Because Some Internet Fanboys(tm) Figured it Out."

"I've got a spike in my head! A spike! In! My! Head!"
Mike.

[Evan Waters]

Please tell me the notion of Ellis doing Penance tongue-in-cheek was a joke? :confused: It's one thing to turn a PG character dark and violent, but to then ignore any potential for that side of him to be treated intelligently? Gag me.

Honestly, a tongue-in-cheek approach seems to be the most intelligent one there is for the character.

[Beast]

Honestly, a tongue-in-cheek approach seems to be the most intelligent one there is for the character.
Either that or killing him and putting him out of our misery. :D

[Haunt]

they could retcon Robbie into Dwayne Taylor since they already poked fun at him for being into S&M before blowing him up.

[Sam T.]

This was quite the turning point for our little buddy Speedball!

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Honestly, a tongue-in-cheek approach seems to be the most intelligent one there is for the character.
I disagree (well, obviously - I don't go around saying "Gag me" for fun. Well, much). There's basically two options here: either Penance is a good idea, or a bad idea - there seem to be proponents of both arguments.

If he's a good idea, making fun of him will ruin it - he's a teenage boy (at least, that's how I've seen Speedball portrayed - age in comics is always tricky) who's been traumatised and abused to the point where he's suffered a breakdown and is now borderline suicidal and surviving on a kind of martyr complex, convincing himself that he enjoys pain because that makes it easier to endure, which in turn keeps his abuse-inculcated self-loathing in check, and because it triggers the powers that allow him to feel like he's in some way atoning for the guilt he's been forced to take on. In the hands of a good writer, that could work, and be interesting for some time to come as his psyche continues to evolve. It's not fun, though, and using it as a source of cheap jokes will just destroy any credibility the idea might have had, and ruin any chance for Penance to be an interesting character.

If he's a bad idea... make it good. Ellis isn't some novice hack, he should be quite capable of taking Penance from a mishandled introduction (and I'm the first to admit that Front Line hasn't done the best job of that) and crafting him into a real, compelling character. Fiction is one of the few fields where you really can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, given sufficient insight and effort.

I don't mean that there can't be humour involved - I love black comedy - but there's a world of difference between that and 'tongue-in-cheek'. Speedball fans will for the most part probably never like Penance - but if he's written well, developed realistically, and explored rationally, I think the majority will in the end at least be able to respect Penance. If he's sidelined as a joke unworthy of real development, he'll never be anything but an insult to Speedball fans, and a weakness in the Thunderbolts books.

[Haunt]

I disagree (well, obviously - I don't go around saying "Gag me" for fun. Well, much). There's basically two options here: either Penance is a good idea, or a bad idea - there seem to be proponents of both arguments.

If he's a good idea, making fun of him will ruin it - he's a teenage boy (at least, that's how I've seen Speedball portrayed - age in comics is always tricky) who's been traumatised and abused to the point where he's suffered a breakdown and is now borderline suicidal and surviving on a kind of martyr complex, convincing himself that he enjoys pain because that makes it easier to endure, which in turn keeps his abuse-inculcated self-loathing in check,


yep, emo. Emo-Ball should be mocked until he really does commit suicide, imo. hey, maybe they'll end up going the same route as with the real Penance from Generation X. Robbie will eventually have nothing to do with spike guy and the latter will just be a really cool but empty shell that goes on adventures with the T-bolts. jeezus, when is Vance Astrovik going to come along and beat the living daylights out of this kid. Vance actually came out of prison a stronger and better individual. and he actually had to endure being beaten by and then murdering his father.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

yep, emo.
It's only 'emo' if it's unwarranted. Kids who claim they're clinically depressed and their life is meaningless because their current favourite boy band broke up are emo. A teenager who's endured months of physical and mental abuse and been forced to assume the guilt for killing six hundred people, including children and his own teammates... well, I think it's understandable if he's got a few clouds on his mental horizon. That's actual emotional distress, as opposed to emo.

[littleredhat]

I agree. Over use of the term "emo" has got to stop. I mean didn't it just start out as a term for overly emotive music?

It seems these days that no one can feel any negative emotion without being someone taunting. "Don't be emo. imo lol BBQ."

Even if something horrible and negitive happens to someone. Somthing that fully justifies a strong emontional response they are labled emo.

Would you prefer if characters were never allowed to show sadness or anger or guilt?

Peter Parker: Well Uncle Ben is dead and I could have stoped it if I had been more responsible but hey I'm not going to let that effect me. I've got a whole carrer in show biz to look forward too. Yep things are looking fine.

Ben Grimm: Well children run when they see my face now and I'll never have the normal life I once had but hey who cares I'm gonna watch some tv.

Robbie will either get past these feelings eventually or they will destroy him. Either way he is not acting emo.

He is just feeling justifiable emotions.

[Alan2099]

I don't care who you are or what you've gone though, esigning a costume filled with SPIKES ON THE INSIDE is not justifiable.

[littleredhat]

Well mabey not justifiable. But a total mental break after a barrage of mental and physical trauma is at least understandable.

He went crazy. Not emo.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

I don't know for sure if it can be said whetheror not he enjoys the pain. what i can assess is that:
1. He feels he deserves to feel this pain for all the suffering and the deaths he is forced to shoulder because of the Stamford incident.
2. For some reason the only way to trigger his power is to, from what I understand, pierce his skin. before hand any impact to his skin would bring about his transformation.

Which seems somewhat reasonable to me, Nitro's exlposion overloaded his threshhold to activate his powers. So instead of a surface impact, he needs his skin to be penetrated.

I see it as akin to the big albino monk from the Da Vinci Code. It's a way of absolving himself of sin. But I do agree that between issues 8 & 10 of Frontline
there was to qucik a change in his admission of guilt. Where he felt he was doing the right thing before and now feels solely responsible for the entire incident. But being abused by the cops, inmates, judges, his family abondoning him being sent to the negative zone and being shot would probably cause a person to make an irrational decision. Not a fate I would have chosin for Robbie Baldwin, but it seems like an interesting direction to take a character in terms of story telling.

[Phrozen]

I agree. Over use of the term "emo" has got to stop. I mean didn't it just start out as a term for overly emotive music?

It seems these days that no one can feel any negative emotion without being someone taunting. "Don't be emo. imo lol BBQ."

Even if something horrible and negitive happens to someone. Somthing that fully justifies a strong emontional response they are labled emo.

Would you prefer if characters were never allowed to show sadness or anger or guilt?

Peter Parker: Well Uncle Ben is dead and I could have stoped it if I had been more responsible but hey I'm not going to let that effect me. I've got a whole carrer in show biz to look forward too. Yep things are looking fine.

Ben Grimm: Well children run when they see my face now and I'll never have the normal life I once had but hey who cares I'm gonna watch some tv.

Robbie will either get past these feelings eventually or they will destroy him. Either way he is not acting emo.

He is just feeling justifiable emotions.

There is being depressed and there is crying for attention because you feel you aren't getting enough of it. Guess which one emo falls under?

Not to mention one of the symptoms of real clinical depression is a lack of care about personal grooming. Unlike the stylized hair and clothes that emos wear.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's an unnecessary change, an unoriginal idea, and an unintended metaphor.

I'm not sure it is unintended; in fact, I'm pretty sure it is quite intended. I'm not fond of CIVIL WAR at all, but some of the people - Jenkins oort included - are quite bright, and have previously demonstrated the ability to approach stories on a lot of levels.

This looks like a conscious decision to me. Brevoort and Joe Q have said all along, the goal was to make the Marvel U an edgier, riskier place. This is the same sort of thing Dan Didio said over at DC, just as a conscious decision was made to tailor IDENTITY CRISIS to shake things up, and to base the next big events and much of the upcoming tone of the DCU on the rape, the mindwipes and all that.

If it was unintentional, it could be regarded as sort of funny. CIVIL WAR isn't well-choreographed, but I don't believe much as far as the big events is unintended, and the fact that this was handed over to Ellis demonstrates that Marvel *knew* this was a seriously fracked up development.

[JeffreyWKramer]

but he did stand up to the registration act. And look what it did to him: being beaten by cops, being beaten and stabbed by criminals, being shot, having bullet fragments lodged in your spine, and then being held hostage by criminals.
What a great heroic message. Standing up for your ideals makes things worse. Fascism is good.

[XPac]

What a great heroic message. Standing up for your ideals makes things worse. Fascism is good.

Or maybe the moral is that this is how you turn out when you cave and give in to Fascism (or at least what Speedball thought of as Fascism). Doesn't look to me like Speedball is going to walk off into the sunset living happily ever after.

[JeffreyWKramer]

For the Speedball fans: what do you think it would take to break Robbie, to turn him into something like Penance? Is it flatly impossible?

I just don't buy him transforming in this way. Him breaking, giving up on heroism, that I could buy. Him being broken inside yet still trying to redeem himself through heroism, I can definitely buy. Him turning into self-mutilation man and doing the whole "embrace the pain" thing, I can't buy at all.

[Sparkle Motion's Rising Force]

I couldn't read the entire thread, but I just want to chip in and mention how awful this development and this character are. Everything about him is just ridiculous, starting with the name and my god, that outfit.

I can't say I knew just where Robbie's story was going, but I didn't imagine he'd become S&M armor man. This is just the sort of "edginess" that made me stop reading superhero comics--I thought they got over this sort of nonsense a decade ago. I would rather have seen him turn into Spawn than this.

I have been a real defender of Civil War in general since it's gotten me back into reading Marvel comics and really enjoying what's out there these days--but the overwhelming dullness of CW#6 combined with the jaw-dropping inanity of the "Birth of Penance" has made me remember why I bailed on them to begin with.

[ducklord]

Happy Thought #2:

The possibility of Emoball leaping into battle, soliloquizing in the Mirthless Marvel Manner* thusly:

My crimes -ouch- are unfor -ouch- giveable...
The only -ouch- path for me is -ouch- pain -ouch-
No one -ouch- can under -ouch- stand my inner -ouch- torment...

Can't wait until Deadpool has a whack at this Mort,
Mike.

* "Merry" is soOOOoo last millenium

[Haunt]

I agree. Over use of the term "emo" has got to stop. I mean didn't it just start out as a term for overly emotive music?

It seems these days that no one can feel any negative emotion without being someone taunting. "Don't be emo. imo lol BBQ."

Even if something horrible and negitive happens to someone. Somthing that fully justifies a strong emontional response they are labled emo.

Would you prefer if characters were never allowed to show sadness or anger or guilt?

Peter Parker: Well Uncle Ben is dead and I could have stoped it if I had been more responsible but hey I'm not going to let that effect me. I've got a whole carrer in show biz to look forward too. Yep things are looking fine.

Ben Grimm: Well children run when they see my face now and I'll never have the normal life I once had but hey who cares I'm gonna watch some tv.

Robbie will either get past these feelings eventually or they will destroy him. Either way he is not acting emo.

He is just feeling justifiable emotions.


personally, i roll my eyes whenever Ben Grimm whines about his looks. Alicia Masters was all over that. he's got thousands of friends in the marvel universe. he was a billionaire until he decided to run away to France. yeah, the Thing is emo. and Spider-man's always been emo but at least he has a great sense of humor.


It's only 'emo' if it's unwarranted. Kids who claim they're clinically depressed and their life is meaningless because their current favourite boy band broke up are emo. A teenager who's endured months of physical and mental abuse and been forced to assume the guilt for killing six hundred people, including children and his own teammates... well, I think it's understandable if he's got a few clouds on his mental horizon. That's actual emotional distress, as opposed to emo.

you can't be forced to assume guilt. Robbie didn't see himself as responsible for their deaths. at most, i could see him being angry and defiant. that's a little different than putting little knives on the inside of your costume/claiming they stand for the lives lost in Stamford. i could see Robbie becoming a bit of a jerk and giving the public the one finger salute whenever possible. but hiding away in an iron maiden is pretty wussy-ish. of course, this is all subjective. i'm just telling you what i'd do if were framed for a crime. i would be angry; not ashamed of some crime i didn't commit.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

i'm just telling you what i'd do if were framed for a crime. i would be angry; not ashamed of some crime i didn't commit.

Well maybe he figures if no one else is going to make sense, why should he.
But there really isn't a reason for him to blame himself for anything but the two guys in the field. Namorita (wow that was terrible for me to write, how could someone bring oneself to use such a derivative name for a character) was the one going toe to toe with Nitro, and Nitro was the d!ck who decided to fry everyone within what two blocks of him. I think from a story telling point of view it should have been Baldwin to confront Nitro, that would have served a greater justice. I mean, Namor mades sense, but Wolverine was going way out on a limb.

[Vaal]

Yeah, he's less emo, more insane at this point. I wouldn't say 'broken' as much as 'snapped' though.

It was a horrible thing to do to any character, much less one like Speedball.

Looking back, Penance is going to be the thing that came out of CW (and maybe Clor if he sticks around). Thats a sort of disturbing look at the event.

[Haunt]

Well maybe he figures if no one else is going to make sense, why should he.
But there really isn't a reason for him to blame himself for anything but the two guys in the field. Namorita (wow that was terrible for me to write, how could someone bring oneself to use such a derivative name for a character) was the one going toe to toe with Nitro, and Nitro was the d!ck who decided to fry everyone within what two blocks of him. I think from a story telling point of view it should have been Baldwin to confront Nitro, that would have served a greater justice. I mean, Namor mades sense, but Wolverine was going way out on a limb.

i agree with that last part. it would make sense for two characters with explosive powers to throwdown. i would have even been for Robbie doing something uncharacteristic like execute Nitro. oh and i always called her Kymaera.

[lonewolf23k]

I just don't buy him transforming in this way. Him breaking, giving up on heroism, that I could buy. Him being broken inside yet still trying to redeem himself through heroism, I can definitely buy. Him turning into self-mutilation man and doing the whole "embrace the pain" thing, I can't buy at all.

Exactly. ...The Iron Maiden suit is just pushing it too far, in my honest opinion.

[Jadeskies]

Thunderbolts is not a rip off of DC's suicide squad. In Suicide squad you get z list villains which can and will be killed at the bat of an eye because they are put on suicide missions. (Kinda like getting highway trash detail in prison while wearing a big sign that says HIT ME!)

Thunderbolts gives you the masters of evil who first sought to disguise themselves as heroes to take advantage of a world which lost its heroes and then decided that being a hero was too good to go back to being a villain. They typically follow or try to stop Baron Zemo's plots and none of them are under sentance of death. Rarely does a T-bolt get killed (at least for very long, charcoal being the exception.).

Speedball didnt join the team of green goblin, bullseye and venom. He joined the team of Green Goblin, bullseye, venom, SWORDSMAN, MOONSTONE, RADIOACTIVEMAN, AND SONGBIRD.

[Vaal]

Thunderbolts is not a rip off of DC's suicide squad. In Suicide squad you get z list villains which can and will be killed at the bat of an eye because they are put on suicide missions. (Kinda like getting highway trash detail in prison while wearing a big sign that says HIT ME!)

Thunderbolts gives you the masters of evil who first sought to disguise themselves as heroes to take advantage of a world which lost its heroes and then decided that being a hero was too good to go back to being a villain. They typically follow or try to stop Baron Zemo's plots and none of them are under sentance of death. Rarely does a T-bolt get killed (at least for very long, charcoal being the exception.).
We're not talking about the old, good TB, we're talking about the All New, All Evil team. You instantly lose all 'anti-hero/pseudo hero' points when Norman Osborn and Bullseye come aboard. Venom can still play the Lethal Protector card, but GG and Bullseye love murder and betrayal too much.

[Sean Whitmore]

We're not talking about the old, good TB, we're talking about the All New, All Evil team.

Except, as he pointed out, half of the lineup is made up of old, good T-Bolts.


Venom can still play the Lethal Protector card

Actually, he can't even do that, as this isn't Eddie Brock. :) This is Scorpion-Venom, who's just as bad as Bullseye and GG.


SEAN

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

you can't be forced to assume guilt.
Heck yeah you can. It's pretty simple - every time Robbie says "No I'm not responsible," hit him. Repeat until he gives up. That's basically it, though obviously a bit more subtlety (intentional or otherwise) is required. But in essence, it's that simple, because pain is a simple mechanism, hooked up to a lot of instincts that aren't entirely under our conscious control. The mind doesn't always know what's good for it and what's not, and pain is the mechanism we've evolved to correct our behaviour in instances where we make a bad call - if we decide to do something, and it hurts, we're inclined to stop, and not do it again. So if Robbie refusing to accept guilt causes him pain, sooner or later he'll stop doing it - not a conscious choice, but one dictated by his basic survival instincts.

Granted it wouldn't invariably work - there'll be people who'll be better at resisting, and perhaps endure pain until it kills them rather than break mentally. But I think Robbie was part-way there in any case. Look at how vehemently he denied responsibility for Stamford, even when it wouldn't really have been a great hardship to him to do so. He refused to sign up and accept training - nothing harsher than that - because he felt it would've been tantamount to admitting he'd done wrong, and instead of being let out and essentially paid to do the job he was doing before, he went back to his cell and the daily torrent of abuse and beatings. That's not entirely rational - partly, yes, it was based on principle, but I think it was a case of protesting too much. Look at the situation: Robbie was in charge, he said "Let's attack," and during that attack six hundred people died, including children and teammates. Any leader would feel remorse at having given the order to go in, even if what then happened wasn't reasonably forseeable. I'm not sure I'd trust someone who could go through that and not feel guilty about it, even if it truly was just a tragic accident. So I think a portion of Robbie's refusal to accept the blame was an effort to convince himself that he wasn't to blame, because he was worried that perhaps he was. He didn't kill anyone, but he gave the order - perhaps if he'd waited, or engaged the enemy differently, or got backup... In the aftermath it'd be so easy to start thinking like that, and get caught up in what-ifs, each carrying with it the spectre of him being indirectly responsible for all those deaths.

So all the while he was refusing to take the blame, there was a part of him that felt that, perhaps, he was to blame. The no-blame part of him got beaten into submission, and now the blame part is in charge.

What I think could be interesting about Penance is that nobody truly breaks forever - people are very psychologically resilient, and given time, I think it's entirely possible that Robbie's old personality will start to reassert itself. Given that his Penance persona is partially driven by loathing of his Speedball persona, it'll be interesting to see what happens then.

[StoneGold]

Isn't Zemo more evil than Osborn? Only one of them tried to conquer the world. What, is conquering the world less evil now than banging Spidey's girlfriend?

[Lavteria]

I wish they would fire a whole bunch of people at Marvel. What a stupid idea. I don't care how much they sell when they pull stupid stuff like this (and I am a shareholder).

:(

[StoneGold]

Yes, I'm sure Penance is going to negatively affect Marvel's stock prices.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't care how much they sell when they pull stupid stuff like this (and I am a shareholder).

Then can I have the profits your shares make?


SEAN

[Lavteria]

Yes, I'm sure Penance is going to negatively affect Marvel's stock prices.

If you read closer I didn't say it would. I said I would rather them make less money then do stupid ideas like this.

But of course there are lots of people with bad taste who think these things are great ideas.

[StoneGold]

If you read closer I didn't say it would. I said I would rather them make less money then do stupid ideas like this.

But of course there are lots of people with bad taste who think these things are great ideas.

Thank you, arbiter of taste. I'll be sure to write that down.

[ducklord]

Stupid Marvel Comedy of the Future:

Panel 1: Emoball is fighting criminals, all the while engaging in a tortured inner monologue. Ghost Rider pulls up alongside.

Emoball (caption): The pain I (ouch) inflict on these poor (ouch) bastards is nothing compared to my (ouch) eternal shame...

Panel 2: Emoball continues fighting while Ghost Rider gazes intently at him.

Emoball (caption): Nothing I can (ouch) ever do will (ouchie) ever erase my... my... my...

Panel 3: Emoball, distracted, drops the villain he was pummeling with his inner torment, and turns to face Ghost Rider.

Emoball: Can I help you?

Panel 4: Ghost Rider doesn't make eye contact with Emoball (really, how could he?) but continues to look right at him.

Ghost Rider: Sorry... Pennance Stare, doncha know...

I'll be here all week,
Try the veal,
Be good to your folks, 'cause they've been good to you,
Mike.

[Shellhead]

Thunderbolts is not a rip off of DC's suicide squad. In Suicide squad you get z list villains which can and will be killed at the bat of an eye because they are put on suicide missions. (Kinda like getting highway trash detail in prison while wearing a big sign that says HIT ME!)

Thunderbolts gives you the masters of evil who first sought to disguise themselves as heroes to take advantage of a world which lost its heroes and then decided that being a hero was too good to go back to being a villain. They typically follow or try to stop Baron Zemo's plots and none of them are under sentance of death. Rarely does a T-bolt get killed (at least for very long, charcoal being the exception.).

Speedball didnt join the team of green goblin, bullseye and venom. He joined the team of Green Goblin, bullseye, venom, SWORDSMAN, MOONSTONE, RADIOACTIVEMAN, AND SONGBIRD.

Did you ever actually read Suicide Squad? There were three distinct incarnations of the team, but the most successful and definitive was the 66-issue run started by writer John Ostrander.

Some of the Suicide Squad members were villains, but not all. The team leader was Rick Flag, who was not a villain. Bronze Tiger was a villain, but was reformed before joining the Suicide Squad. Shade the Changing Man was a fugitive from his homeworld, but definitely not a villain. Nightshade was not only a hero, but originally partnered with Captain Atom. And Black Orchid was a hero.

So the analogy between the new Thunderbolts team and the Suicide Squad actually looks pretty solid. Government operation using a mixture of characters including heroes, villains and reformed villains, being sent on dangerous missions.

[Dazzler]

Now you're exaggerating. And wrong. Many other characters have suffered huge personal losses without going all angsty. Or at least any angstier than usual. Keep in mind, the Marvel Universe was founded on the sturm und drang. But Nova just had the the entire Nova corps get killed out from under him for the 14th time, and he's relatively OK. Cap just found out his partner that he left for dead has been trying to kill him, and he's OK, when Iron Man isn't shellacking him. Hulk got sent into space by his buddies, and it's arguable that he's more well adjusted right now than he has been in decades.

Ah. well, so glad that you were here to tell me i'm wrong. otherwise, how in the world would i have known?!
but let's look at the characters you mention: Nova, Captain America, and Hulk. These aren't exactly the same *type* of character as speedball: goofy and slightly tongue-in-cheek. anyone of those "well adjusted" characters you mention wouldn't throw me as much if they turned into an angst ridden cliched dork. they're all just a stones throw from going out of their minds anyway. it's kind of in their job description to be a little angsty.
your examples of "well adjusted" just don't make me rethink how a character like SPEEDBALL would suddenly, after being in jail for about as long as it takes to be in traffic court, would suddenly turn all OZ. it's just bizarre and stupid that Speedball's soul-searching would take the form of a bondage queen. My issue is that a character who's never, ever been about this strange level of angst would make an unprecedented and unrealistic 180 degree turn.

--Dazz

[StoneGold]

. My issue is that a character who's never, ever been about this strange level of angst would make an unprecedented and unrealistic 180 degree turn.

--Dazz

And you're wrong about that, too. OK, maybe not to this level, but hell, he'd never been accused of murdering 600+ people before. But you're ignoring all the angsty teen stuff Robbie went through, the abandonment of his father after his dad basically tried to kill him, etc. And that's not counting all the wacky, screwed up Randian philosophy in the original book.

And as I keep saying, there was the time Robbie started wearing the black trenchcoat...

[Doom Hammer]

Someone made a great point. We have to look at this in terms of comic book logic. In comics, tragedy compels heroes to put on a costume. For Robbie, who is completely alone, detested by the world, near death, without his powers in the absence of pain, and having the guilt of over 600 deaths on this shoulders, this unprecedented tragedy drove him to put on a new costume.

Is it goofy? Unrealistic? Yeah, okay. But in a world where boys dress up like bats to strike fear in the hearts of men, it's not as far out as some people are making it. And seeing that no human character has endured what Robbie has recently - I defy you to name one who has, particularly a young guy in his late teens/early twenties - it's not bizarrely ill-fitting.

I can't speak for the execution, but the idea is not completely without merit.

[Kirk G]

Exactly. ...The Iron Maiden suit is just pushing it too far, in my honest opinion.

You said it, Brother!
I'm not going to support Marvel in this, even if he's designed to be the foil for the Winter Soldier (who I thought was edgy enough in and of himself!).

Note: I was also against Deadpool, and complained loudly to Brevoort over him when I bought the issues guestaring the GLA. Torturing a blind hostage was too much for me... I've never bought another Deadpool issue or item since.

And, while I'm not very pleased with Normal Osborn doing the nasty with (willing or otherwise) Gwen Stacy in a retcon, I'll admit that it was a carefully designed, cleverly plotted retcon that I enjoyed reading and puzzling over. Now, if the kids had been Peter's, like they were supposed to have been in the first place.....:rolleyes:

[Doom Hammer]

You said it, Brother!
I'm not going to support Marvel in this, even if he's designed to be the foil for the Winter Soldier (who I thought was edgy enough in and of himself!).

Note: I was also against Deadpool, and complained loudly to Brevoort over him when I bought the issues guestaring the GLA. Torturing a blind hostage was too much for me... I've never bought another Deadpool issue or item since.

First of all, those issues didn't even tough upon the depths of his depravity. Especially in his behavior towards Al. So be glad you dropped out when you did.

Secondly, the reader doesn't know the story behind Blind Al, or why she's Deadpool's prisoner/roommate. And their relationship is a lot more...complicated than it seems.

God, I miss Blind Al.

[Beast]

First of all, those issues didn't even tough upon the depths of his depravity. Especially in his behavior towards Al. So be glad you dropped out when you did.

Secondly, the reader doesn't know the story behind Blind Al, or why she's Deadpool's prisoner/roommate. And their relationship is a lot more...complicated than it seems.

God, I miss Blind Al.
Check the preview for the next issue of Cable/Deadpool. ;)

[Doom Hammer]

Check the preview for the next issue of Cable/Deadpool. ;)

Nuh-UH...!:eek:

*checks to see what Beast is talking about*

[Haunt]

And you're wrong about that, too. OK, maybe not to this level, but hell, he'd never been accused of murdering 600+ people before. But you're ignoring all the angsty teen stuff Robbie went through, the abandonment of his father after his dad basically tried to kill him, etc. And that's not counting all the wacky, screwed up Randian philosophy in the original book.

And as I keep saying, there was the time Robbie started wearing the black trenchcoat...

that was Rage's trenchcoat; given to Robbie to cover up his ugly costume. and Robbie thought it was cool. no angst involved. :)

[Sparkle Motion's Rising Force]

And, while I'm not very pleased with Normal Osborn doing the nasty with (willing or otherwise) Gwen Stacy in a retcon, I'll admit that it was a carefully designed, cleverly plotted retcon that I enjoyed reading and puzzling over. Now, if the kids had been Peter's, like they were supposed to have been in the first place.....:rolleyes:

Whoa... not to derail the thread, but I've never heard of this, don't know where it comes from or where it fits in, and never want to hear of it again.

[luxshine]

And you're wrong about that, too. OK, maybe not to this level, but hell, he'd never been accused of murdering 600+ people before. But you're ignoring all the angsty teen stuff Robbie went through, the abandonment of his father after his dad basically tried to kill him, etc. And that's not counting all the wacky, screwed up Randian philosophy in the original book.

And as I keep saying, there was the time Robbie started wearing the black trenchcoat...

Ok, I'm confused. I don't like this whole Penance thing, but I was going to stay out of the discussion since, frankly? It saves me money. I was going to follow whatever happened to Robbie as long as I thought it was logical and this isn't.

Anyway, I remember the 10 original Speedball issues, and all of NW v.1. I only read v.2 until issue 6, and I totally missed v.3. But I do remember that the trenchcoat was 'cool' back then, not angsty and that Robbie's main problem then was that his costume was created by his powers, so it couldn't be changed at all (And then, promptly, his powers changed it) so, no angst.

But more importantly... when did his father tried to kill him? In v.1 he wasn't exactly thrilled to know Robbie was Speedball -and yes, there was that one time when they shoot him but it was because Speedball was a masked hero, not because he was Speedball- but last I remember reading, they had reached a very good understanding, and they were mending fences in a very mature fashion (Robbie visiting Springfield every so often)

What happened to change that?

[Sijo]

What happened to change that?
Jenkins punched a wall. ;)

[Black Atom]

I totally agree. I have never been all that high on Speedball...

(stifles laugh)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedball_(drug)

Okay. Continue.

[Dazzler]

And you're wrong about that, too. OK, maybe not to this level, but hell, he'd never been accused of murdering 600+ people before. But you're ignoring all the angsty teen stuff Robbie went through, the abandonment of his father after his dad basically tried to kill him, etc. And that's not counting all the wacky, screwed up Randian philosophy in the original book.

And as I keep saying, there was the time Robbie started wearing the black trenchcoat...

well, you'll have to excuse me if i take your repeated offerings of "you're wrong" as fact. because, quite frankly, it's not a fact and your arguments aren't compelling.
the basic is: it's a stupid, cliched idea that just doesn't work for this character.

--Dazz