Changes in History

[Joe Acro]

During Infinite Crisis, New Earth was formed. The history of New Earth is different than the that of the Earth we knew. Several things have changed. Infinite Crisis only covered a few changes. Over the past few months other details have been provided. Presumably, this will continue into the indefinite future. This thread is simply to note what changes have been made and, by association, what stories are no longer in continuity.

[Lorendiac]

This thread is simply to note what changes have been made and, by association, what stories are no longer in continuity.

Seems reasonable. I'll start the ball rolling with three obvious changes that were actually mentioned within the pages of "Infinite Crisis #7." Then -- hopefully -- other people will chime in, pointing out any other Post-IC Retcons they've picked up on lately in DC's titles set "One Year Later."


Changes that we specifically heard about in "Infinite Crisis #7" included:

1. Wonder Woman was a Founding Member of the first version of the Justice League.

For the last 20 years, since COIE, she had only begun her superhero career several years later, long after the JLA had been founded with Black Canary as the sole female Founding Member. Now things have reverted back to the way they were in the 1960s, 1970s, and early 1980s in that regard. As far as Silver Age and Bronze Age JLA continuity is concerned, anyway. I think -- but I could be wrong -- that all of the old Pre-COIE stories that were being published in WW's personal title at the same time as the original JLA title are still dust in the wind, gone and forgotten.

The chief impact on any "well-known" stories of Post-COIE continuity is probably the way this takes Mark Waid's "JLA: Year One" 12-part series and tears it into little tiny pieces and throws them out the window.

2. There were some rumors about an incredibly powerful boy (Superman) before he moved to Metropolis and made his big public debut.

However, as far as we can tell, Clark never actually put on the red and blue costume until that debut in Metropolis; there has been no mention of his ever calling himself "Superboy" at all. Adding a few vague rumors to his backstory doesn't automatically change much about any notable storylines from his Post-COIE continuity, as near as I can tell at the moment. (Don't ask me what the point of this retcon is; I don't know.)

3. Joe Chill, the murderer of Batman's parents, was caught by the police afterwards instead of just vanishing into thin air for the next couple of decades.

Again, I'm not sure why it really mattered to them to make this retcon. It would knock Mike Barr's "Year Two" out of continuity if it hadn't already been knocked out of continuity ages ago. It also contradicts things that were mentioned about the mysterious and never-solved murder of the Waynes in more recent stories, including "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive," and "Dark Victory," and the first story arc of the "Superman/Batman" title. However, "Dark Victory" was allegedly never meant to be "solidly in continuity," and as far as I know, the bulk of the events of "Fugitive" and the opening story arc of S/B are still supposed to be in continuity, even if those specific references to the "never-solved mystery of the Wayne murders" are now supposedly retconned out of the dialogue.

[Paul Newell]

1. Wonder Woman was a Founding Member of the first version of the Justice League.

For the last 20 years, since COIE, she had only begun her superhero career several years later, long after the JLA had been founded with Black Canary as the sole female Founding Member. Now things have reverted back to the way they were in the 1960s, 1970s, and early 1980s in that regard. As far as Silver Age and Bronze Age JLA continuity is concerned, anyway. I think -- but I could be wrong -- that all of the old Pre-COIE stories that were being published in WW's personal title at the same time as the original JLA title are still dust in the wind, gone and forgotten.
Justice League of America #0 shows that some, if not all of Wonder Woman's Pre-Crisis history has been reinserted to some extent. At least the old Diana Prince and I-Ching storyline has.
2. There were some rumors about an incredibly powerful boy (Superman) before he moved to Metropolis and made his big public debut.

However, as far as we can tell, Clark never actually put on the red and blue costume until that debut in Metropolis; there has been no mention of his ever calling himself "Superboy" at all. Adding a few vague rumors to his backstory doesn't automatically change much about any notable storylines from his Post-COIE continuity, as near as I can tell at the moment. (Don't ask me what the point of this retcon is; I don't know.)
Well you do see him in his Superboy costume, with Krypto, in front of a "Welcome to Smallville" sign, in a shard in Infinite Crisis #6.

[Joe Acro]

Based on his appearance in Green Lantern OYL (issue #11 I believe), the Cyborg Superman's continuity has changed. Prior to that story, his new continuity apparently has his last appearance at Parallax: Emerald Night/Final Night. This means that the following issues are no longer relevant:

Superman #128, Adventures of Superman #551, Action Comics #738, Superman #129, Superman Red/Superman Blue #1, Superman: The Man of Steel #84, Superman #140, and Adventures of Superman #563.

Does this mean that in New Earth's continuity, Superman was never split into Red and Blue?

[areacode212]

3. Joe Chill, the murderer of Batman's parents, was caught by the police afterwards instead of just vanishing into thin air for the next couple of decades.

Again, I'm not sure why it really mattered to them to make this retcon. It would knock Mike Barr's "Year Two" out of continuity if it hadn't already been knocked out of continuity ages ago. It also contradicts things that were mentioned about the mysterious and never-solved murder of the Waynes in more recent stories, including "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive," and "Dark Victory," and the first story arc of the "Superman/Batman" title. However, "Dark Victory" was allegedly never meant to be "solidly in continuity," and as far as I know, the bulk of the events of "Fugitive" and the opening story arc of S/B are still supposed to be in continuity, even if those specific references to the "never-solved mystery of the Wayne murders" are now supposedly retconned out of the dialogue.

I'm pretty sure this was meant to nullify ANOTHER retcon--the one from Zero Hour where Batman discovered that Joe Chill actually didn't murder the Waynes and that the murder was unsolved. I think the point of the ZH retcon was to give Batman extra motivation, like for him, ALL criminals are symbolic of his parents' killer, or something.

[SpaceBooger]

2. There were some rumors about an incredibly powerful boy (Superman) before he moved to Metropolis and made his big public debut.

However, as far as we can tell, Clark never actually put on the red and blue costume until that debut in Metropolis; there has been no mention of his ever calling himself "Superboy" at all. Adding a few vague rumors to his backstory doesn't automatically change much about any notable storylines from his Post-COIE continuity, as near as I can tell at the moment. (Don't ask me what the point of this retcon is; I don't know.)

If I had to guess this was a smallvile related issue, so that viewers of the show who jump on board to the comics realize that supes had powers as a child but with the "no tights, no flight"

[Super Buddies Forever]

Is it possible that Alex Ross' Justice is a story that takes place in the past of the post-IC continuity? I mean, we've got Wonder Woman and Barry Allen on the same Justice League team (as in the Pre-Crisis days), but Captain Marvel and other characters all operate on the same Earth (as in the Post-Crisis days).

Before IC it was considered out-of-continuity. Now I think it would fit rather well.

[Joe Acro]

Does Parasite's appearance in Justic League mean that the story in which he died didn't happen or that he has somehow been revived?

[dupersuper]

I don't see why Cyborgs' appearances in the Supes books would be affected...I'll have to reread the issue. As for Parasite; u can't keep a good villian down. ;) Maybe his resurection is connected to the parasite twins from Rukas' run, or he was spit out when the Titans closed the door to the afterlife, or maybe Supes just dropped him off at Star in time and they managed to revive him (He HAS been brought back from being turned to liquid goo...). He was also in that "day in the life" JLA book a while ago...was that before or after his apparent death? He was green in that book, that may be part of his recovery story to. The possibilities are endless.

[CYOTI]

Does Parasite's appearance in Justic League mean that the story in which he died didn't happen or that he has somehow been revived? I think it's obviously the latter given the nature of the hero-villains game in the DCU.

[Mulett]

Mon-El's story is being updated - for the third time - in current LoSH. Poor sod. No matter what happens, he always ends up back in the Phantom Zone.

Many (if not all) of the heroes now remember the multiverse. The JSA (in particular Power Girl) remember Earth-2, for instance. The ghost of the Earth-2 Batman was recently shown in a JSA classified. So New Earth history obviously revolves around the fact that the multiverse did once exist, where as pre-Infinite Crisis it was a pretty strict rule that the multiverse had never existed.

It seems as though Hippolyta's role as the WWII Wonder Woman may have been deleted. There does not seem to have been any clear mention on it, so far. Maybe this is because the JSA now remember their Wonder Woman and including Hippolyta might have taken away from this.

I also wonder if Triumph has now been removed from continuity as a founding member of the JSA as Wonder Woman has been restored there.

Time Travel is much much harder in the New Earth universe, which makes me wonder if some of the time-travel stories - pre-Infinite Crisis - have been removed from continuity.

[glennsim]

I also wonder if Triumph has now been removed from continuity as a founding member of the JSA as Wonder Woman has been restored there.

Since nobody remembered his actions anyway, I don't think WW's return would affect that story. If anything, Wonder Woman would probably now be one of the heroes he gathered.

[Suzanne]

Is it possible that Alex Ross' Justice is a story that takes place in the past of the post-IC continuity? I mean, we've got Wonder Woman and Barry Allen on the same Justice League team (as in the Pre-Crisis days), but Captain Marvel and other characters all operate on the same Earth (as in the Post-Crisis days).

Before IC it was considered out-of-continuity. Now I think it would fit rather well.I read somewhere that Justice is a stand-alone deal, but you have a good point. I guess Capt. Marvel and Plasticman are members because Ross is fond of them.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

I've been wondering how the Green Lantern lore would be told in the new universe. I mean, was Hal Jordan first picked by Abin Sur, who flipped a coin between Hal and Guy and then picked Hal? And, if so, did Guy suffer brain damage, only to be revived on COIE? But, if so, then that means that, in the new universe, there was a COIE, which doesn't make sense.

And did Hal/Parrallex kill off the entire GL Corps, only to have everything revived again?

[Trademark]

Arisia is now 240 years old instead of 14 years old.

[Gozwald73]

So when they retconned Wonder Woman back into JLA founding member continuity, did they pull Black Canary out? I hope not. Why does there only have to be one female founding member? Kind of deflates them both to 'token female' status if so, which is :( or :mad: or :evilangry

[Super Buddies Forever]

I agree that Canary should be left in. It would, at the very least, allow some elements of Waid's Year One to remain as part of the backstory.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Arisia is now 240 years old instead of 14 years old.

Actually, she's now a 240 year old who looked like a 14 year old instead of a 30 year old who looked like a 14 year old. This isn't the first time Arisia's age has been tinkered with so creators could hook her up with Hal without him getting tossed in jail for banging an underage girl.

However, despite all the hoops previous writers jumped through to explain how Arisia wasn't actually 14 years old, readers were still confused, so the most recent retcon made her several hundred years old to make it crystal clear that Hal doesn't have a thing for alien jailbait.

[Agentum]

A lot of boring storys and fuzz for changing very little.

[Trademark]

Actually, she's now a 240 year old who looked like a 14 year old instead of a 30 year old who looked like a 14 year old. This isn't the first time Arisia's age has been tinkered with so creators could hook her up with Hal without him getting tossed in jail for banging an underage girl.

However, despite all the hoops previous writers jumped through to explain how Arisia wasn't actually 14 years old, readers were still confused, so the most recent retcon made her several hundred years old to make it crystal clear that Hal doesn't have a thing for alien jailbait.

No, Arisia really was originally 14. The 28 thing was a reference to how Graxos IV revolves around its sun twice as fast as the Earth revolves around our sun.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/44oz_soda/arisia/GL204-pg04.jpg

[Agentum]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, how can they make things that complicated, easy is often = good, they never learn.

[Choppa]

I'm pretty sure this was meant to nullify ANOTHER retcon--the one from Zero Hour where Batman discovered that Joe Chill actually didn't murder the Waynes and that the murder was unsolved. I think the point of the ZH retcon was to give Batman extra motivation, like for him, ALL criminals are symbolic of his parents' killer, or something.

Yeah I was gunna say that. Prior to IC, it was very ambigious as to who killed Bruce's parents. IC mostly solidified this, though as was said, contradicts stuff in recent stories. The entire plot of Batman #603 goes to hell for instance.

[Choppa]

Most of the changes that the big heroes went through (blue superman, parallex) are now a result of the multiple earths trying to realign.

[Lorendiac]

Arisia is now 240 years old instead of 14 years old.

I hadn't heard that one. I admit it made me feel queasy, years ago, when I first heard about how she had been underage when she was living with Hal around the late 80s (if I've got this right?).

By the way, are those "Earth years" in both cases? Given that she's from another planet and all, she could easily be "14 Earth years" and "240 of a different world's years" old at the exact same time! (Or the other way around, I suppose!)

[Lorendiac]

I'm pretty sure this was meant to nullify ANOTHER retcon--the one from Zero Hour where Batman discovered that Joe Chill actually didn't murder the Waynes and that the murder was unsolved. I think the point of the ZH retcon was to give Batman extra motivation, like for him, ALL criminals are symbolic of his parents' killer, or something.

I remember reading the Zero Hour miniseries, and the associated issues of the Bat-titles, when they were coming out in 1994. I thought the insinuation that Joe Chill might not have done it was just plain ridiculous. (For one thing, previous stories, both Pre- and Post-Crisis, had stressed the point that he vividly remembered the face of the man who shot his parents that night.) But I think I comforted myself at the time with the idea that it might be "laying a foundation" for some new story arc that would be coming out in the near future on the subject. As far as I know, that never happened -- which, again, left me with the impression it was a "totally pointless retcon, just for the sake of making a retcon."

I've always figured it was a given that for Batman, all violent criminals remind him of the one that killed his parents. I don't see why knowing -- or not knowing -- the name and face of that killer would make any significant difference to his righteous indignation.

If they wanted to undo that silly Zero Hour retcon, why not just revert things back to the Pre-Crisis continuity in that regard by saying, "Joe Chill killed the Waynes and their son caught up with him years ago," or words to that effect?

[shanejayell]

And did Hal/Parrallex kill off the entire GL Corps, only to have everything revived again?

If IC #7, after New Earth is formed a conversation between Hal & Guy implies Emerald Twilight still happened.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

No, Arisia really was originally 14. The 28 thing was a reference to how Graxos IV revolves around its sun twice as fast as the Earth revolves around our sun.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/44oz_soda/arisia/GL204-pg04.jpg

I know she was meant to be 14 when she first appeared (back when she wasn't intended to be a romantic interest for Hal), but I though Englehart retconned that so that it took Graxos IV twice as long to revolve around its sun as Earth so Arisia was actually 28? Then, when that wasn't enough to convince Hal to jump her bones, she used her ring to mature her body & mind so that she looked and acted like a 30 years old from Earth as well?

Obviously, I was remembering it wrong but I do remember it being far more complicated than it needed to be. It felt like Englehart realised that he'd transformed Carol into a villainess, married Katma Tui off to John, leaving Hal with no girlfriend so he jumped through a bunch of hoops to age Arisia so she could fit the bill.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If IC #7, after New Earth is formed a conversation between Hal & Guy implies Emerald Twilight still happened.

Huh? What conversation? Because there have been numerous references to Emerald Twilight in the OYL issues of Green Lantern and the plot of the first storyarc hidged upon the events of Emerald Twilight taking place.

[Choppa]

I remember reading the Zero Hour miniseries, and the associated issues of the Bat-titles, when they were coming out in 1994. I thought the insinuation that Joe Chill might not have done it was just plain ridiculous. (For one thing, previous stories, both Pre- and Post-Crisis, had stressed the point that he vividly remembered the face of the man who shot his parents that night.) But I think I comforted myself at the time with the idea that it might be "laying a foundation" for some new story arc that would be coming out in the near future on the subject. As far as I know, that never happened -- which, again, left me with the impression it was a "totally pointless retcon, just for the sake of making a retcon."


It was important that he didn't know for BW:M/F. As I said, having Chill be the killer contradicts that story now.

[Taskmaster]

And did Hal/Parrallex kill off the entire GL Corps, only to have everything revived again?


Hall, while possessed, killed ONE person, Kilowog NOT THE THE ENTIRE GL CORPS, never has in any continuity. He also killed a Sinestro construct, but since it wasn't really Sinestro and he was already 'dead' at the time in continuity and wasn't really a GL he isn't as important. Sorry, but it drives me nuts when people imply that he, in cold blood, killed the GLC, he didn't, he even left the ones in space with enough power to survive when he took their rings. Was he responsible for deaths? Yes. Was it cold blooded murder? No.

[Zero Hunter]

Figured it might be time to do a thread with all of the know changes in DC continuty since Superboy started smashing the wall. Not sure how many there have been but these are the one I remember.

Doom Patrol now remembers all of their past experinces be it normal DC or Vertigo and all of the original members are back.

Jason Todd is back from the dead.

Lar Gand (Mon-El) was never Valor or a member of LEGION and Clark Kent put him in the Phantom Zone and not Conner Kent.

Wonder Women back as a founding member of the JLA?

Others?

[Heraclevs]

There may now have been a Superboy in Clark's past in Smallville.


- Romans 9

[Citizen V]

There were a few facts changed about the DCU from Infinite Crisis.The one i read was that Batman`s parent`s murderer was caught.But he still roams Gotham City,not for vengeance..but for justice.

[Choppa]

^Joe Chill is the murderer of Bruce's parents.

Superman's resurrection is now because the door separating life and death was kept open and a bunch of souls escaped.

I think Hal and Green Arrow were also resurrected for the same reason.

[dupersuper]

^Joe Chill is the murderer of Bruce's parents.

Superman's resurrection is now because the door separating life and death was kept open and a bunch of souls escaped.

I think Hal and Green Arrow were also resurrected for the same reason.

I think the return stories still happened as written, but Supes return weakened the "door" and allowed such things to happen more easily.

[Choppa]

I think the return stories still happened as written, but Supes return weakened the "door" and allowed such things to happen more easily.

But they said that something was "banging" on the door. Isn't that a clear reference to Superboy Prime altering things?

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Looks like Superboy Prime's reality punching is gonna be the main cop-out for any futures continuity problems..

I just wish DC would print the currrent bios for their characters so we all know where we are!

Of course, now that history has been mangled so badly that would be a herculean task...

[glennsim]

Looks like Superboy Prime's reality punching is gonna be the main cop-out for any futures continuity problems..

I just wish DC would print the currrent bios for their characters so we all know where we are!

Of course, now that history has been mangled so badly that would be a herculean task...

My impression is that they want to give the writers the freedom to rebuild the history as a part of the process of telling new stories. If they did a new "who's who" today, then they'd either be tying the hands of the next writers or end up having contradictory info out there anyway.

[Sijo]

My impression is that they want to give the writers the freedom to rebuild the history as a part of the process of telling new stories. If they did a new "who's who" today, then they'd either be tying the hands of the next writers or end up having contradictory info out there anyway.
Didn't they try that (letting the current writers redefine the history) after the first Crisis, and things got really messed up? I mean, really, there's room for being original without throwing entire plotlines out of the window. Marvel seems to do it (with the occasional errors, but they get usually fixed) why can't DC? Lazy editiorialism seems the only answer.

The ironic thing is, IF they had still had a multiverse, this wouldn't be a problem at all. We would just assume that the stories since 1985 have taken place on Earth-8 or whatever, and we would all have our pies and eat them too. But nooo, gotta kiss those writers' butts... :evilangry

[Candyland_Assassin]

The chief impact on any "well-known" stories of Post-COIE continuity is probably the way this takes Mark Waid's "JLA: Year One" 12-part series and tears it into little tiny pieces and throws them out the window.

Thats a shame, I love that book.