View Full Version : Why is Iron Man still a hero?
Lord_Archive
12-04-2006, 07:36 PM
Does he have a real rogues gallery of any kind anymore?
Does he serve any purpose except to tag along with the Avengers and get drunk?
From Civil War we have seen what kind of antagonist Stark makes, so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
From Iron Man to Iron Monarch.
Haunt
12-04-2006, 07:44 PM
Does he have a real rogues gallery of any kind anymore?
Does he serve any purpose except to tag along with the Avengers and get drunk?
From Civil War we have seen what kind of antagonist Stark makes, so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
From Iron Man to Iron Monarch.
how about he just heads up SHIELD?
KrymynalChylde
12-04-2006, 07:52 PM
how about everyone quits ****** hatin on tony
Will.S
12-04-2006, 07:58 PM
Does he have a real rogues gallery of any kind anymore?
Does he serve any purpose except to tag along with the Avengers and get drunk?
You should be reading his regular Iron Man book and New Avengers pre-Civil War. He's steadily solidifying his rogues again (one time use villain Mallen, Crimson Dynamo, Spymaster) and does lots of heroic things in New Avengers.
From Civil War we have seen what kind of antagonist Stark makes, so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
From Iron Man to Iron Monarch.
No thanks.
mattbib
12-04-2006, 08:07 PM
...so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
Sounds like the brainstorm that spawned The Crossing.
Sounds like the brainstorm that spawned The Crossing.
Agreed. Terrible idea, and one that is seemingly drawn from someone who maybe doesn't understand the complexities of Civil War. Iron Man isn't the bad guy, kid. If Iron Man has been "directionless" then look at the people who have written him as such. Furthermore, IM has a devoted following which is larger than the occassional fanboy who might see him in a crossover and make blanket assumptions.
I do agree however, that IM needs to rebuild his rogues gallery, but as of late that has been blossoming. Part of the problem with the IM book is that it hasn't had a solid creative team stick with it long enough to make the character identifiable for some time. The Extremis arc DID bring new things to the character that have potential (even if I find several faults with it myself, it's still advancement) and the Knauf's have really been showing potential on the book as of late. As long as Marvel doesn't do anything dramatically stupid with Iron Man (i.e., take him out of the armor suddenly, or fail to clean up what's happening in Civil War to a sterile level acceptable by the general reading public of comics), then there are good things in store for the character soon.
Lord_Archive
12-05-2006, 05:48 AM
Oh please. Complexities? Saying Iron Man is being misunderstood in his role in Civil War is like saying Dr Mengele's attempts at "progressing medical science" were misunderstood.
Erik Lehnsherr
12-05-2006, 07:25 AM
Does he have a real rogues gallery of any kind anymore?
Does he serve any purpose except to tag along with the Avengers and get drunk?
From Civil War we have seen what kind of antagonist Stark makes, so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
From Iron Man to Iron Monarch.
Of course he was gonna make a good villian for Civil War. He has the majority's trust and he's a billionaire. He's formidable, no matter what role you put him in. He would get embarassed wholesale by a Doom though if he went total heel. Something needs to happen to him for the choices he's made in this storyline but he shouldn't be vilified forever.
Kirk G
12-05-2006, 01:30 PM
Of course he was gonna make a good villian for Civil War. He has the majority's trust and he's a billionaire. He's formidable, no matter what role you put him in. He would get embarassed wholesale by a Doom though if he went total heel. Something needs to happen to him for the choices he's made in this storyline but he shouldn't be vilified forever.
I agree with this.
Why is Tony still considered a Hero... I guess for the same reason that Yellow Jacket or Hank Pym is considered one. He was one for years, and started out as one, and has his own series, and it's hard not to think of him as "one of the boys".
But, golly, hanging onto a hair of Thor's ever since day one, just in case...
I mean, WOW, that's really revisionist!:rolleyes:
Magneto Rocks
12-05-2006, 01:34 PM
Of course he's a hero. That's like saying the Invisible Woman has no solo rogues gallery, therefore she is not a heroine! Tony is an Avenger, and his rogues gallery is being revived. He goes around trying to save lives and make the world a better place. He IS a super hero, as much as Cap or Spidey or anyone else.
surfDUI
12-05-2006, 02:06 PM
Of course he was gonna make a good villian for Civil War. He has the majority's trust and he's a billionaire.
So we just back off 60 years of history cause you (not you Lehns) think 'in this particualr story' and the fact that 'you got so sucked in' that Stark in Civil War is a jerk...
He's an 'Avenger' (again) ain't he?
So we just back off 60 years of history cause you (not you Lehns) think 'in this particualr story' and the fact that 'you got so sucked in' that Stark in Civil War is a jerk...
He's an 'Avenger' (again) ain't he?
Exactly.... Many of the people looking to call Iron Man a villain throughout this are likely generally the same people who jump on board throwing stones and asking questions later about most things in life.
It's both easy and argumentative logic to disregard the entire past of a character just to seem like an expert while preaching about a current positioning strategy that you may not agree with. Not only that, it's obvious by the comments I've been reading that these same people may have a hard time differentiating between reality and comic books. The reality is that the comic book characters don't do anything that the writers don't write them to do. Therefore, if Iron Man's position isn't being justified enough for those of us who can't ascertain a bigger picture, then it's because the writers aren't being clear enough. Not because the character is an @$$hole.
I'm also not saying that everything going on in Civil War is okay and above board, but we haven't seen the end yet. Not only that, but if it ends in a fashion where some goofballs want to continue to call Iron Man a villain, then either chaulk it up to a surface understanding on their part, or to incomplete storytelling on the part of the writers involved in the story. The funny thing is that for Cap and IM being the two main players in this drama, they've barely had any true "screen time" thus far.
Babylon23
12-05-2006, 06:32 PM
Tony is a great character, easily one of Marvel's best. In the past, he's proven himself to be a hero in the true sense of the word.
Also, Tony has an excellent Rogues gallery: Mandarin, Spymaster, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, The Maggia, Hydra, Madame Masque, Ultimo, MODOK, and countless others. These are classic villains that only require a good writer to make them shine.
Having said that, the way he's being written at the moment paints him in a very negative light. CW is especially bad, and Tony seems to be being presented as the villain of the piece, at least at the moment. Of course, this is how the Marvel writers want to present him at the moment, which is their prerogative, but it's ridiculous to judge a 40+ year old character with hundreds of solo and Avengers appearances on 5 issues of CW.
Calybos
12-06-2006, 09:27 AM
Like many misguided villains and antiheroes, he believes he's doing the right thing. He USED to do the right thing on a regular basis.
And enough of the regular heroes remember him from back when he WAS on the side of justice that they're trying hard to give him every benefit of the doubt.
StoneGold
12-06-2006, 01:08 PM
But, golly, hanging onto a hair of Thor's ever since day one, just in case...
I mean, WOW, that's really revisionist!:rolleyes:
Yeah, but so was making him an alcoholic. And a control freak.
Rat-bastard Bob Layton.
wellsoul2
12-07-2006, 12:37 PM
I guess he's an extreme right wing version of hero..
I guess if the Punisher is a hero then Stark still is from some points of view.
I think it's fine..I never really bought that he became some quasi-liberal
guy after getting rid of the munitions business.
Really he was a moderate conservative at best..I guess in these times of
extreme division it makes sense to give him a more extreme right-wing
attitude. He's been becoming more a "for the law" than "for the individual"
kind of guy which fits with being part of the government and being a
corporate CEO for a company that makes weapons for SHIELD etc.
I can see his viewpoint in Civil War..implement policy at any cost.
Personally I'd say he's betrayed many of his friends and ignored moral
problems to do that winning in Civil War..which is a bit out of character.
It's a stretch but I can see him persuading himself...
I could see him as head of SHIELD. You kind of have to be a jerk to be head of it. Or let him keep being the way he is..I think you need a right wing
hero..it's so unrealistic to make them all tree-huggers..:)
(I'm liberal myself but think it's ludicrous how lefty most heroes are for Marvel)
Beacon
12-07-2006, 07:09 PM
Wait, he’s a hero now? I thought he was the guy rounding up innocent superhumans in the middle of the night.
They did this with the Crossing and it was awful. I don't think that this is Marvel's plan anyway. I lot of the speculation that Iron Man is "evil" now is really only being asserted as "true" from the perceptions of many people posting things like this on the internet.
Personally, I think that calling Iron Man evil is giving certain writers of Civil War too much credit. What's going on in the Marvel U is "wrong" by our real world perceptions. The way it's being handled in the story is also wrong. The fact is that Iron Man is honestly the most misunderstood character in comics right now (that assertion is based on my interpretation of Civil War as it's been touted to be.. now IF Marvel pulls a 180 and there is a trick ending, then that changes things obviously).
If Marvel doesn't pull a drastic change with some kind of hidden villain or what have you, then Iron Man is the most misunderstood character in comics... both in the real world and in "comic book world".
The fact is that certain things are law in real life. And when regular people get arrested for breaking the law they are shocked stating "how could this happen to me" or "I didn't do anything wrong!" but the reality is that most of the time... they broke the law. Stark is very smart. Stark sees this with the same logic that the cop that pulled you over and gave you a ticket for not wearing your seat belt saw it. Not only that, but this is a "WAR", so the due process thing for the detainees doesn't happen for a long time down the road (I'm already planning my rebuttal for the guy that posts "but in Spider-Man Iron Man said they'd be held forever...).
That being said, IF the basic, basic logic of this whole thing (people being held, arrests in the middle of the night, bla bla bla) IS how this plays out, then I disagree with it and I'd be a guy fighting registration.
But if this is actually being written by smart people who truly understand the story they are telling, then really a lot of the conjecture about "evil Iron Man" is misperception on behalf of a great many people uninformed about the reality of laws. In that case, Iron Man is getting a bad rep for being the ONLY one to do what is right.
tonearcher
12-08-2006, 05:17 PM
There's just too many books that portray iron man as a villian (ASM, Civil War Books) and the new Iron man is pretty much the only one that supports Tony. In the last Iron Man, I thought Tony made some good points, but then you read Amazing SpiderMan, and Iron Man is crashing through walls basically threatening MJ and May and telling Spidey "After all I've done this is how you repay me?" I think Iron Man has good intentions that are being over shadowed by other Solo books that need to use him as "the bad guy".
Well... SOMEONE has to be the fall guy for the masses. Without a figurehead, the whole thing is too abstract, and understanding abstract ideas requires people to equilibrate the information and apparently that's too much to ask.
Karthak
12-09-2006, 08:01 AM
Wait, he’s a hero now? I thought he was the guy rounding up innocent superhumans in the middle of the night.
Best desciption ever.
da noble savage
12-09-2006, 08:55 AM
Well... SOMEONE has to be the fall guy for the masses. Without a figurehead, the whole thing is too abstract, and understanding abstract ideas requires people to equilibrate the information and apparently that's too much to ask.
So what just cause it's a law means it should be followed with out question. Segration that was a law jim crow laws,hell slavery all where laws at one point and all where unjust. If a law is unjust or the implmention of said law is unjust it should not be upholed. When the colonist formed america they where breaking laws as well just cause it's a law and he upholds it doesn't make him a hero. A hero fights for just laws he doesn't just go with the majority. Frankly the way he's being protrayed in CW and all the tie ins he's a villion maybe things well change in the future maybe they won't but at this point no matter how you slice it he's a villion.
So what just cause it's a law means it should be followed with out question. Segration that was a law jim crow laws,hell slavery all where laws at one point and all where unjust. If a law is unjust or the implmention of said law is unjust it should not be upholed. When the colonist formed america they where breaking laws as well just cause it's a law and he upholds it doesn't make him a hero. A hero fights for just laws he doesn't just go with the majority. Frankly the way he's being protrayed in CW and all the tie ins he's a villion maybe things well change in the future maybe they won't but at this point no matter how you slice it he's a villion.
No, no. I never said this. And hence the perfect example as to why falsifiability in internet conversations goes flying out the window. The point I was making in my original post above was more complicated than this. I even went out of my way to illustrate my opinions on acceptability and unacceptability regarding the premise of registration.
And for the record you are comparing apples to oranges regarding a comic book superhero issue which likely in the real world would have to be enforced (and actually is: it's called vigilantism) with several historical landmark events which defined the zeitgeist of the times. It took a new public paradigm to change those things for the better. Frankly, your response above is nothing more than corner-backing cliche.
Im sick and tired of people saying that the law doesnt make it right and the new law is just as bad as slavery etc.
For once. i didnt know you could get out of slavery just by signing a registration paper. The momant you begin to compear that law with slavery or nazi then you loose.
The law is about controlling vigilante's and giving them rights, but also making them accountebol for their action. The only thing you can comment on is the way its done. But the pro are actully the once who is morally right, as they are doing this to protect the public and the superheor from a fullscale war between them. Something Iron man avoides by rounding up those with no forsight. Who dont realise that the world move forward and its adapt or die time.
Tobias March
12-09-2006, 11:32 AM
He shares a name with Stalin. I mean - he's not being subtle about it.
But yes any notion of turning Tony into a villain would be a mistake. I don't see it on the cards. He's a pragmatist, not an idealist. Cap's black and white morality wouldn't even make sense to him
Christos - Tony is Ozymandias! It all makes sense now, Millar's constantly comparing his comics to Watchmen :)
StoneGold
12-09-2006, 12:31 PM
He shares a name with Stalin. I mean - he's not being subtle about it.
Close, but not quite. Stalin means man of steel, not iron. So you can make all the Superdick jokes you want.
Im sick and tired of people saying that the law doesnt make it right and the new law is just as bad as slavery etc.
For once. i didnt know you could get out of slavery just by signing a registration paper. The momant you begin to compear that law with slavery or nazi then you loose.
The law is about controlling vigilante's and giving them rights, but also making them accountebol for their action. The only thing you can comment on is the way its done. But the pro are actully the once who is morally right, as they are doing this to protect the public and the superheor from a fullscale war between them. Something Iron man avoides by rounding up those with no forsight. Who dont realise that the world move forward and its adapt or die time.
Well said, man.
shanejayell
12-09-2006, 09:21 PM
Tony is a hero, arguably, because he's doing what he feels is morally right and needed.
:)
Sadly, the whino in the park who hears voices could probably clain he's doing what he feels is morally right and needed, too.
Tony may not be made a villain, but it sure spells the end of the new Avengers. I mean come one by watch stretch of the imagination does anyone thing that Cap is going to forgive Tony for this. Not that I blame him, Tony is acting in an Unforgivable manner. As for who's right or wrong, I'll go with the guy that has the huge friggen America flag across his chest. If they right it so that these to kiss and make up after all this, I think I'll loss my lunch, and any urge to EVER buy any books by these writers again.
shanejayell
12-10-2006, 08:18 PM
Which is why, stur, there are two Avengers books coming. Tony going his way, Cap going the other.
Shellhead
12-11-2006, 06:56 AM
Does he have a real rogues gallery of any kind anymore?
Does he serve any purpose except to tag along with the Avengers and get drunk?
From Civil War we have seen what kind of antagonist Stark makes, so I think its time for Marvel to push Iron Man to his next logical path and make him into one of Marvel's greatest supervillains.
From Iron Man to Iron Monarch.
It's simple. Read the Armor Wars issues, and you will see how good an Iron Man comic can be. Than read The Crossing, and you will see how badly the Iron Man concept can be mangled. Teen Tony! Then you will realize that the writer can make or break a comic.
Magneto Rocks
12-11-2006, 07:02 AM
Tony may not be made a villain, but it sure spells the end of the new Avengers. I mean come one by watch stretch of the imagination does anyone thing that Cap is going to forgive Tony for this. Not that I blame him, Tony is acting in an Unforgivable manner. As for who's right or wrong, I'll go with the guy that has the huge friggen America flag across his chest. If they right it so that these to kiss and make up after all this, I think I'll loss my lunch, and any urge to EVER buy any books by these writers again.
The argument works the exact same both ways. I doubt Tony will forgive Cap, and I don't blame him.
Oh yeah, poor Tony. Yeah he cloned a GOD and sicked it "untested in the field" on some of his oldest friends, causing the murder of a man that has saves countless innocent lives in his time. Sure he is fielding a group of murderers and mass murderers on the bad old law braking hero's. Sure he was almost indirectly responsible for the MURDER of Spiderman. When the Thunderbolt's leave a bloodbath in their wake and a lot of good people die. Who's hands will all that blood be on? Poor poor Tony. He should just lead them, he seems to fit in better with them these days.
Long live captain America! :) :) :)
Captain Exaggeration
12-11-2006, 04:45 PM
Oh yeah, poor Tony. Yeah he cloned a GOD and sicked it "untested in the field" on some of his oldest friends, causing the murder of a man that has saves countless innocent lives in his time. Sure he is fielding a group of murderers and mass murderers on the bad old law braking hero's. Sure he was almost indirectly responsible for the MURDER of Spiderman. When the Thunderbolt's leave a bloodbath in their wake and a lot of good people die. Who's hands will all that blood be on? Poor poor Tony. He should just lead them, he seems to fit in better with them these days.
Long live captain America! :) :) :)
People have lost all intrest in character depth these days.
Brian M.
12-11-2006, 04:50 PM
Tony is still a hero becuase he still following the law and doing what is right. The concept of registration is a logical direction for all heros. Some of Tony's method's maybe a little extreme but he is still doing the right thing.
Just because you follow the Law doesn't mean your doing the right thing. Just ask the founders of this great nation.:)
Shellhead
12-11-2006, 07:58 PM
Just because you follow the Law doesn't mean your doing the right thing. Just ask the founders of this great nation.:)
Tony shouldn't be held responsible for his current actions, because he is being controlled by Mark Millar. Millar could have just as easily picked Captain America to be pro-registration and Iron Man to be anti-registration, given their respective histories. After all, Captain America received his powers from the U.S. Government, and he has always prided himself on obeying the law. Iron Man invented his own powers, and has been more willing to break the rules to get things done, especially during the Armor Wars.
gunnerfan69
12-11-2006, 10:40 PM
Tony is still a hero becuase he still following the law and doing what is right. The concept of registration is a logical direction for all heros. Some of Tony's method's maybe a little extreme but he is still doing the right thing.
So the "Ends justify the means"?
Following a law doesn't make someone a hero if so where is my medal? Breaking the law doesn't neccassarily make you a villan (how many of us have gone too fast this week?)...
I know it's called a "Civil War" but what war has been declared that the rights of those against the registration should be violated for the sake of the pro heroes? Even going with the Geneva convention guidelines for "prisoners of war" (something the US has agreed to in principle and so I'm assuming this fictional US world has as well) would never condone shipping people to another dimension. I'm sure there would be outcry from the UN, EU and just about every human rights organization ever created (assuming they too are based on similar lines as in the "real" world). I actually think it would be quite humerous if PETA attacked the negative zone to free the anti-reg heroes :D
At any rate, I think Stark is a hero that is maybe misguided and he should be held accoutable for his actions. The avengers never really cleaned up Shield anyway so this is obviously at least partially a result of that failure as a team. I'm just hoping Namor will come along a beat the sense back into him :cool:
SUPERECWFAN1
12-11-2006, 10:48 PM
Of course he was gonna make a good villian for Civil War. He has the majority's trust and he's a billionaire. He's formidable, no matter what role you put him in. He would get embarassed wholesale by a Doom though if he went total heel. Something needs to happen to him for the choices he's made in this storyline but he shouldn't be vilified forever.
I always said that unless the finale has Tony Stark possessed by a Loki or some villain the storyline in Civil War has painted him in such a horrid bad light I can't people actually looking at him as a hero anymore.
Kevinroc
12-11-2006, 11:59 PM
Tony shouldn't be held responsible for his current actions, because he is being controlled by Mark Millar. Millar could have just as easily picked Captain America to be pro-registration and Iron Man to be anti-registration, given their respective histories. After all, Captain America received his powers from the U.S. Government, and he has always prided himself on obeying the law. Iron Man invented his own powers, and has been more willing to break the rules to get things done, especially during the Armor Wars.
Tony was originally going to be the leader of the Anti-Reg movement and Cap was going to lead the Pro-Reg movement. Somewhere rather early in the plotting, they switched roles.
Sandy Hausler
12-12-2006, 06:29 AM
how about he just heads up SHIELD?
Then he'd be a real vilain.<g>
But that raises a question. What (if anything) is going to be done with Nick Fury. He can't really come back to SHIELD after what he pulled in Secret War. So what is he going to do? Be on the run for the rest of his life (which is infinite)?
Sandy Hausler
Karthak
12-12-2006, 07:58 AM
Tony is still a hero becuase he still following the law and doing what is right. The concept of registration is a logical direction for all heros. Some of Tony's method's maybe a little extreme but he is still doing the right thing.
You're quite wrong there. You are correct in that a hero does what is right, but nowhere in the definition of hero does it stand that you have to obey the law to be a hero. In some instances the only heroic thing to do is to break the law. Tony is following the law, but his actions are not those of a hero. A hero does not create a clone army, throw his own friends into a prison in the negative zone and employ an army made out of unrepentant serial killers(bullseye, Venom, Green Goblin). No matter how justified you may think those acts are, they disqualify Stark from being called a hero.
Magneto Rocks
12-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Just because you follow the Law doesn't mean your doing the right thing. Just ask the founders of this great nation.
An argument which loses all it's value when you consider that the same argument could be used to justify stealing, murdering and raping.
A hero does not create a clone army, throw his own friends into a prison in the negative zone and employ an army made out of unrepentant serial killers(bullseye, Venom, Green Goblin)
I love how one cyborg can become a "clone army" in the mind of a fanboy.
I'd say a hero doesn't run aroun breaking the law, scheming to overthrow the government, plotting attacks on civilian buildings, busting criminals out and fighting policemen with potentially lethal force. Oh yeah, AND recruit an unrepentant serial killer, except this time UNLIKE Stark he has no means of controlling 'im.
Effect
12-12-2006, 09:57 AM
Well Clor could be considered a "one man army". With him you don't really need to send in an army at times, just him or it. So I think "clone army" fits here.
Beacon
12-12-2006, 10:30 AM
But that raises a question. What (if anything) is going to be done with Nick Fury. He can't really come back to SHIELD after what he pulled in Secret War. So what is he going to do? Be on the run for the rest of his life (which is infinite)?
Sandy Hausler
I don't know about that. I don't see how what Fury did is any worse than what Hill or Stark are doing now.
NickThompson
12-12-2006, 01:49 PM
You're quite wrong there. You are correct in that a hero does what is right, but nowhere in the definition of hero does it stand that you have to obey the law to be a hero. In some instances the only heroic thing to do is to break the law. Tony is following the law, but his actions are not those of a hero. A hero does not create a clone army, throw his own friends into a prison in the negative zone and employ an army made out of unrepentant serial killers(bullseye, Venom, Green Goblin). No matter how justified you may think those acts are, they disqualify Stark from being called a hero.
A hero doesn't throw his friends into prison?
Calybos
12-14-2006, 09:50 AM
The law is intended to approximate our ideals of "what's right." It doesn't always succeed, which means that obeying the law is not a sufficient justification for calling yourself "right." In many, many circumstances, opposition to the law is the morally "right" side.
Further, the fact that Iron Man believes he's doing the right thing is also no guarantee of heroic status. Suicide bombers believe they're doing the right thing; soldiers shooting people in a war--on BOTH sides--believe they're doing the right thing. And many of our most interesting supervillains are 100% sincere in their efforts to make the world a better place, as they see it.
Right and wrong aren't as simple as sincerity and law-abidance.
Doesitmatter
12-15-2006, 01:01 PM
Read Iron Man's Civil War tie-in issues. It's the only book NOT treating him as a villain.
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