Finally got around to reading "The Dark Knight Returns"

[Orbis De Ignis]

I can't believe this has such an iconic following. It's a right wing anti-intellectual propaganda piece and I thought comic book fans would no better. I don't think it's the "Darker" turning point for Batman either - I mean, he's called BATMAN he was obviously going to end up dark at some point, especially when there was always some "Noir" influence in there.

It's hard to say what bothers me in specific, but the notion that psychologists/psychiatrists in general don't know how people work and nutcases in bat suits (Which is what his Batman is) do.

Miller bothers me in general - if you've ever read any interviews where he rants about Hippies and Liberals you'll understand why. I like Sin City, but I like it less now that I know that's closer to how he "really" thinks and it's not some twisted poetry. I don't like him turning other things into Sin City.

No thanks, Miller, I'll be sticking to The Long Halloween for a good, dark Batman story.

[acagle7]

The Long Halloween came out in the 90s.

[Orbis De Ignis]

The Long Halloween came out in the 90s.

My mistake. I was confusing it with another arc with similar art style which did(the art style IS very 80s).

[RickThunderclees]

I can't believe this has such an iconic following. It's a right wing anti-intellectual propaganda piece and I thought comic book fans would no better. I don't think it's the "Darker" turning point for Batman either - I mean, he's called BATMAN he was obviously going to end up dark at some point, especially when there was always some "Noir" influence in there.

It's hard to say what bothers me in specific, but the notion that psychologists/psychiatrists in general don't know how people work and nutcases in bat suits (Which is what his Batman is) do.

Miller bothers me in general - if you've ever read any interviews where he rants about Hippies and Liberals you'll understand why. I like Sin City, but I like it less now that I know that's closer to how he "really" thinks and it's not some twisted poetry. I don't like him turning other things into Sin City.

No thanks, Miller, I'll be sticking to The Long Halloween for a good, dark Batman story.
.....wow.....

[Orbis De Ignis]

Yes; I amaze myself sometimes too.

[The Foreigner]

I like Sin City, but I like it less now that I know that's closer to how he "really" thinks

... and this is where I lost you. I judge writing based on itself; not on it's author.

The Dark Knight Returns is a fun western wrapped in superhero mythology. Well-developed characters, great dialogue, exciting action-sequences, and an epic storyline. The politics are just side dressing for me.

[the goddamn batman]

I can't believe this has such an iconic following.

You had to be there, which you were clearly not. It's first and fore most a reflection of it's time... regan era 80's.


It's a right wing anti-intellectual propaganda piece

Miller, was at least then, a heavy handed liberal. Where you get 'right wing' from , I don't know. But, I'd like to hear what gives you that impression.


I don't think it's the "Darker" turning point for Batman either

Again, you had to be there. Oniel/Adams had taken Batman back to his darker roots, which really were only the first hand full of Batman stories, but after the 50's-60's era Batman, anything was dark... at least darker.


- I mean, he's called BATMAN he was obviously going to end up dark at some point,

And he did, with DKR... it's funny that you would say that he's bound to end up dark, and then dismiss the book that really brought him back into the shadows.


especially when there was always some "Noir" influence in there.

THe first year or so of Batman had a noir influence. THat was quickly cast off in favor of Robin, and fighting aliens in space, and every story taking place in the day time.


Miller bothers me in general - if you've ever read any interviews where he rants about Hippies and Liberals you'll understand why.

Like what? Where? I've read many interviews with Miller and he mainly talks comics. I'm sure there are lots of interviews with hi I've not read. I'm curious what you mean.


I like Sin City, but I like it less now that I know that's closer to how he "really" thinks and it's not some twisted poetry. I don't like him turning other things into Sin City.

This just confuses me. "really" thinks? What?

Also, DKR pre dates Sin City by many years, so it's impossible for Miller to turn something into something else when that something else doesn't even exist yet.

But, I'm mainly lost on the 'right-wing' comment when DKR is so clearly left wing, if any wing. This statement doesn't lend much credibility to the rest of what you have to say.

[filthysize]

I have heard many negative comments about DKR, but this takes the cake.

I'm interested to know how you get right wing propaganda from a book that has its hero fighting the symbol of American patriotism in the climax and was made as a semi-protest to the Reagan administration.

[Brady]

It's hard to say what bothers me in specific, but the notion that psychologists/psychiatrists in general don't know how people work and nutcases in bat suits (Which is what his Batman is) do.

That annoyed me too on first reading, but I don't think Miller was trying to say all mental health professionals are whackos. Instead, he was showing that Batman polarises opinions on both sides, and brings out the nutjobs in the left wing as well as the right.

If he'd just shown the naive psychiatrists I think your criticism would be spot on, but as the series goes on they all emerge from the woodwork, including the fundamentalist crazy who opens fire in the cinema. Plus his portrayal of Reagan is hardly flattering.

Interesting too that the psychiatrists are actually kinda right - Batman does bring out the crazies. The Joker was catatonic for ten years before Batman popped up again.

[snide]

DKR is definitely one of my favorite books. I think the analogy to a western is the best point. Comics in general are just exaggerated stereotypes, and I always love books that aren't ashamed of it and feed upon the mythos of what it is to be a superhero. What that must be like, living day to day with that kind of obsession. Along with Alan Moore's Watchmen I think the two books define that feeling, that reality of a made up universe then any other books published.

Recently I've loved Bendis' Powers books for somewhat the same reason. Though the great thing about Powers is he defines that reality not through the eyes of the heros, but of the bystander witnesses. It becomes not so much what it is to be a super hero, but holy wow, what would it be like to have crazy caped people flying around your city. What would it be like if you actually saw a guy fly.

I'd much rather have stories like this that go into the psycology of the mythos then just reading your average punch um up ish.

[TheBatGotHim]

TDK is not one of my favorite books. Its a good story and I do enjoy it as a Batman story, but I do think its overrated a bit and so is Frank Miller.

[Chris N]

So, I get annoyed when people tell me something is the best comic ever and I don't agree. I just do. People say this a lot of DKR. And it is a damn, damn good comic.

It has the following against it for me, and only the following.

It's not my favorite comic ever (Lee's Spider-Man). It's not my favorite Batman comic ever (not sure quite what is). It's not my favorite Batman comic by Frank Miller ever (Batman Year One is one of the greatest comics ever made).

That being said, DKR:
a) is a really really enjoyable read
b) does intelligent stuff concerning Batman and superheroes in general
c) successfully turned Batman upside down and inside out and helped change the face of superhero comics forever
d) told a story about a Batman that was markedly different than the Batman we knew and yet got to the core of who Batman is by doing so and captured something essential about the character that has not been replicated

[OverMaster]

It's hard to say what bothers me in specific, but the notion that psychologists/psychiatrists in general don't know how people work and nutcases in bat suits (Which is what his Batman is) do.

Hardly a fault of Miller alone. Psychiatrists have too often been depicted in the Batman mythos as mostly uneffective, as almost any Arkham story proves, and reaching its apex with Harley Quinn's origin.

[Joker2503]

I like Sin City, but I like it less now that I know that's closer to how he "really" thinks and it's not some twisted poetry.

Miller himself has said in interviews that all the Sin City books were written basically to entertain himself. He wanted to write a book about guys in trenchcoats who drove muscle cars and called women 'dames' and 'broads.' It was never meant to be "twisted poetry"; it was Frank Miller writing a story that he would personally enjoy reading.

[The Shadow]

You had to be there, which you were clearly not. It's first and fore most a reflection of it's time... regan era 80's.



Miller, was at least then, a heavy handed liberal. Where you get 'right wing' from , I don't know. But, I'd like to hear what gives you that impression.



Again, you had to be there. Oniel/Adams had taken Batman back to his darker roots, which really were only the first hand full of Batman stories, but after the 50's-60's era Batman, anything was dark... at least darker.



And he did, with DKR... it's funny that you would say that he's bound to end up dark, and then dismiss the book that really brought him back into the shadows.



THe first year or so of Batman had a noir influence. THat was quickly cast off in favor of Robin, and fighting aliens in space, and every story taking place in the day time.



Like what? Where? I've read many interviews with Miller and he mainly talks comics. I'm sure there are lots of interviews with hi I've not read. I'm curious what you mean.



This just confuses me. "really" thinks? What?

Also, DKR pre dates Sin City by many years, so it's impossible for Miller to turn something into something else when that something else doesn't even exist yet.

But, I'm mainly lost on the 'right-wing' comment when DKR is so clearly left wing, if any wing. This statement doesn't lend much credibility to the rest of what you have to say.

What he said.

Word for word.

[Orbis De Ignis]

I have heard many negative comments about DKR, but this takes the cake.

I'm interested to know how you get right wing propaganda from a book that has its hero fighting the symbol of American patriotism in the climax and was made as a semi-protest to the Reagan administration.

See - that's the thing, "Right Wing Nutjobs" aren't all "pro-government". I mean, honestly, have you never seen "I don't trust the government" been used in an anti-gun control argument?

There are (normally) two types of nutjob here; the ones who are drones directly to the government, and the ones who are drones to various cultural memes and assertments which are often used by the government.

I'm not referring to Reagan, who was also pictured as being used as a puppet. I'm referring to the socially right wing commentary(as in the social and psychological idealogies that are generally associated with, and more often than not come with, the Right Wing) on the "Left wing liberal hippie psychiatrists" thinking they can solve criminal insanity, being "proven wrong" time and time again in DKR.

I will agree with Miller that we can't solve everything through a pat on the back and light therapy, and that in some occasions a somewhat gritty revolution can be called for. But ultimately, problems as deep as the ones in DKR most certainly cannot be solved by driving around in a big tank shooting kids that probably don't know any better.

In all honesty, when I think of comics that it reminds me of, one of the first thing that comes to mind is Chick's Tracts. There are just some bits that are that unaware and "black and white".

Note that I'll accept that I'm wrong if someone can prove me so, since I have enjoyed some of Miller's work and I don't like disliking a writer for the sake of it. But I have seen a lot of stuff that points to Miller having quite right wing social "policies", and either way, the "Psychiatry is Bull" kinda annoys me.

[AdamKroeger]

Frank Miller, when he wrote DKR, was liberal. Though the series wasn't exclusively a political climate commentary, it did have overtones (especially issue #4). Superman obviously represented mindless devotion to a corrupt goverment and the whole conflict with him was a commentary on the Reagan administration and their foreign policies.

You can't lump everyone into "Right or Left". Just because Miller was anti-Imperialism, doesn't mean that he has to be pro-"rehabilitation of criminals".
I don't think Miller was necessarily anti-psychology, but he as definately anti-"rehabilitation of extremely dangerous criminals", and that doesn't make him right-wing. Miller was a realist.

Though he's liberal politically, he doesn't agree with political correctness. Miller has original thought, and writes what he believes and takes chances. He's pro-America but acknowledges our problems. There's nothing wrong with this.

That being said, not everything that he writes is great (it's been a few years since he's written something good), but he's a great writer.

[Orbis De Ignis]

Holy Terror, Batman!!!

[Jaye]

This thread has gotten way out of line.
Many posters who know better are making personal attacks.
(all deleted)

Its just not worth it.

Please do not start another thread along these lines.
If you want to continue the conversation, take it to email.

Thanks.