Was Beechen ordered to shock Batgirl fans as much as possible?

[elias_A]

Let's look back from a business point of view why the Batgirl series was cancelled.

Normally, the reasons for such a decision are too low sales and no hope of rising them again.
That reasons clearly did not apply here - Catwoman was selling worse, and it was shown before that sales could be enlarged with crossovers etc.

So why did they do it?
There are several possible explanations.

a) They thought with Batgirl as a villain they could sell more issues of Robin or Teen Titans.

BUT:
Those (very doubtful) higher sales would hardly outweigh the lost sales from Batgirl's own series.

b) They thought Batgirl (at least as heroine) would distract from the new Batwoman.
I know this is a popular theory.

BUT:
Do DC really think people are so stupid not to notice the difference? Different name, different costume... From that reasoning, also Catwoman should have been cancelled because her name sounds similar. And Nightwing could confuse potential Robin readers etc...
Really, to me this sounds like a not very credible conspiracy theory. It is not even confirmed that Batwoman will get a solo series at all. And why shouldn't they have published both Batgirl and Batwoman? Because most readers would buy only one and not the other? Very doubtful.

c) Because they want a new Batgirl, probably one that is more similar to Barbara Gordon, which of course is what non-comics-experts expect.

Not much speaking against this, I'm afraid. Only that Cassandra Cain still is called Batgirl in Titans East, and the new Batgirl in Birds of Prey already gave up the name again.
There is a All Star Batgirl series planned with Babs, which could be a tactics to give something to the people who expect her as Batgirl. But that does not have to mean a new Batgirl could not be like her.
At least Oracle becoming Batgirl again does not seem very probable right now.


d) They want to restart a Batgirl series with Cassandra Cain, with higher sales.
Let's assume this is true. So what would they do?
They might introduce Cass to new readers by having her appear in other, high-selling books, like Supergirl and Teen Titans.
They might rise awareness of this character by provoking a lot of internet discussions.
They might mobilize the fans of Cass and reminding us why we liked this character and making us realise how much we would miss her.

So, from that point of view, if Beechen had done what we demanded and portrayed Cass as a credible anti-hero-who kills, but still as a honorable, sane character, DC would not have achieved this goals. So here is my speculation: Maybe Beechen was really ordered to shock and insult Batgirl fans as much as possible?
Of course they would not admit this. And certainly I would not like that they played with my feelings. But if they really would bring back Cass as she was, and maybe really rise her popularity...

So what do you think?

[Damo]

I think you're stretching. A lot. Apathy, laziness, and general incompetence seem much more reasonable explanations. Applying Occam's Razor ("entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity"), I see it going down like this:

1. The decision is made, by those in charge, that Batgirl be cancelled. Why Batgirl was cancelled instead of many other books with worse sales, right as its sales were improving significantly, I do not know.

2. The decision is made, by those in charge, that Cassandra become a new Jason Todd-style black sheep (perhaps because Jason was slated to replace Dick as Nightwing? Perhaps because they didn't want a "daughter" in the way of Batman's father son relationship with Tim? Unknown, and a topic for another day)

3. Andersen Gabrych is told that Cass is going to do a heel turn and take over the League of Assassins. He sets things up in his final Batgirl story.

4. Adam Beechen pitches for several comics, hoping to be made their writer. Robin, a book he did not pitch for, is given to him. He is given the bare minimal info, with the assumption that he and his editors will do the necessary legwork to get it to flow smoothly.

5. Adam Beechen and his editors do not do the necessary legwork to get it to flow smoothly. Adam does not make this a continuation of what Andersen Gabrych set up, and instead comes up with a reason for Cassandra's change that directly contradicts what Gabrych wrote. Adam's two editors look over everything, and either don't know or don't care enough to see anything wrong.

6. It's published. You know the rest.

[Drink]

An interesting theory by the OP, and one I've considered myself many times.

But then again, doing something like that is a high risk of engendering ill will of her fans, of which has occurred in Spades. And at the same time, they might drop books, Robin in a form of protest, and others or even all their DC books. Cass's heel turn was a catalyst for me. Before that, I took all the crap DC did in stride. Now, I've dropped 11 DC books due to mediocre and bad stories, delays, and just plain disinterest.

So it's shooting themselves in the foot, to say the least.

[Effect]

Anyone get the feeling that DC is going to or maybe even now realizes they seriously f*cked up with this whole Batgirl villian situation and are trying to scramble to fix it?

I keep trying to picture the higher ups waiting to see how the Robin storyline was going to be received then to get all of that hate. What is even scarier I think is that they honestly thought it was a good idea. Just want where they smoking I have to wonder. The whole thing doesn't make sense from several directions.

From a business standpoint it made no sense. You don't cancel one of your better selling titles while letting worse selling ones stay. The fact that she sold better then those titles means she was more popular. So you end in up with a situation where you cancel a popular and better selling character's book but keep several unpopuler and lower selling characters.

Then there is DC's push at diversity. Yeah it make sense to cancel a title where the character is female, popular, has name recognition, racially diverse, and long running with sales going up if I recall correctly. Only to somewhat replace her with a lesbian character that has all but appeared in a number of issues you can count on one hand and even then not as a main star. Then there is the fact that said character is based on a character that has not been around for more then 20 to 30+ years and no one really cared about or had any interest in.

I just don't see how this got the go ahead at all. Did anyone in DC bring up a single negative when this was pitched or is DC headed by a bunch of yes men that didn't voice any opinion when some f*uck up suggested this for some unknown (possibly high at the time or drunk) reason. TPTB can like the character or not but just financially it was a horrible decision to make.

[Damo]

To be fair, Batgirl wasn't one of their "better selling titles". Mid-level and improving, but still below Green Anything, Titans, birds of Prey, Nightwing...

But even at its low points it outsold a lot of books that were still being published... and outsold them by a lot.

My pet theory is that DC wanted to push the dynamic of Batman and Robin as kind of father and son, and thought they could improve sales on those books with that strategy enough that it was worth cutting Batgirl (who would have gotten in the way of that father-son dynamic by being a "daughter" that made Tim less unique). And perhaps they didn't think that the word "Assassin" belonged in the origin of any of the bat-family members, and thought it would ruin the picture they were trying to paint company-wide.

If Wizard was a real news magazine, and not a collection of ads, someone would have been asked these questions by now.

[elias_A]

I think you're stretching. A lot. Apathy, laziness, and general incompetence seem much more reasonable explanations. Applying Occam's Razor ("entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity"), I see it going down like this:

1. The decision is made, by those in charge, that Batgirl be cancelled. Why Batgirl was cancelled instead of many other books with worse sales, right as its sales were improving significantly, I do not know.

2. The decision is made, by those in charge, that Cassandra become a new Jason Todd-style black sheep (perhaps because Jason was slated to replace Dick as Nightwing? Perhaps because they didn't want a "daughter" in the way of Batman's father son relationship with Tim? Unknown, and a topic for another day)

3. Andersen Gabrych is told that Cass is going to do a heel turn and take over the League of Assassins. He sets things up in his final Batgirl story.

4. Adam Beechen pitches for several comics, hoping to be made their writer. Robin, a book he did not pitch for, is given to him. He is given the bare minimal info, with the assumption that he and his editors will do the necessary legwork to get it to flow smoothly.

5. Adam Beechen and his editors do not do the necessary legwork to get it to flow smoothly. Adam does not make this a continuation of what Andersen Gabrych set up, and instead comes up with a reason for Cassandra's change that directly contradicts what Gabrych wrote. Adam's two editors look over everything, and either don't know or don't care enough to see anything wrong.

6. It's published. You know the rest.


Of course what you say is quite probable. But I just cannot imagine DC just giving up the Batgirl franchise, or wasting it for a villain. Not that I like or support Didio, but I guess he is really trying to make DC concepts work again, even if he achieves the opposite.

So if you are right, DC will introduce a new Batgirl soon.

Lazyness and incompetence could have also taken place like this: DC planned to restart Cass as Batgirl by turning her into a "cool " villain for some time, and then were suprised by the fan reaction.

[IamtheRock3]

always thought the bad charctazation was to make Batgirl UNSYMYTHETIC AS POSSIBLE


because they didnt want people rooting for batgirl in hopes they can make her return to good.

Also didnt want to make the bat family look bad

you see trying to explain that batman is not a dick anymore. Nightwing better, Robin being a future and better batman maybe

It would look bad to the batfamily if it look like they ignoring batgirl fall

Or if let ANOTHER of Batman protegee driven to madness


But that cure if Batgirl a hatefull Selfish jerk. And not magnetoish villan that just fallen from grace

[The Shadow]

I keep hoping for the Bobby Ewing solution: That Cass wakes up and it was all just a bad dream.

[carabas]

2. The decision is made, by those in charge, that Cassandra become a new Jason Todd-style black sheep (perhaps because Jason was slated to replace Dick as Nightwing?

I think you probably nailed the heart of the matter right here.


3. Andersen Gabrych is told that Cass is going to do a heel turn and take over the League of Assassins. He sets things up in his final Batgirl story.

And here you lose it because what Gabrych set up is that Cass would under no circumstance whatsoever have anything to do with the League. He did have her quit being Batgirl, but that was it.

[Damo]

I disagree. I think Andersen Gabrych was indeed writing a Batgirl that would under no circumstances do a heel turn and take over the League... and then he got the memo that DC wanted her to have a heel turn and take over the League. I think he did the best anyone could be expected to, while staying true to the character, by having her stop and ask how many people could have been saved if she had acted against the villains responsible for Bludhaven's bombing. It's far from perfect, but still the best setup possible under the circumstances, and it left open a possibility of her creating a new League, devoted to killing villains before they can hurt innocents, because of what happened in Bludhaven. But Adam gave us Cass' sister as an explanation instead, and has yet to mention Bludhaven in Robin OYL. I mean at all not just regarding Cass.

[IamtheRock3]

I disagree. I think Andersen Gabrych was indeed writing a Batgirl that would under no circumstances do a heel turn and take over the League... and then he got the memo that DC wanted her to have a heel turn and take over the League. I think he did the best anyone could be expected to, while staying true to the character, by having her stop and ask how many people could have been saved if she had acted against the villains responsible for Bludhaven's bombing. It's far from perfect, but still the best setup possible under the circumstances, and it left open a possibility of her creating a new League, devoted to killing villains before they can hurt innocents, because of what happened in Bludhaven. But Adam gave us Cass' sister as an explanation instead, and has yet to mention Bludhaven in Robin OYL. I mean at all not just regarding Cass.


I actully thought they were going with that

But dont think that what they were going with from the start. Think they actully was going to make her UNSYMTHETIC as possible..or it would pretty much make her guardians look bad

Which the reasons she aint brought up that much in the other books. Really the Batfamily kind of look REALLY bad..leaving on the insland, forgetting about her, not checking up on what basicly an adopted daughter. Also they want Batwoman to look good in comparrsion


The robin writer just the gun DC using. So dont blame him. He just following orders I think

I think this cause Her UBER heel behavoir will probally be shown in Teen Titans. That actully goes again her HARD on crime idea cause she working with villans to attack heroes. Doesnt make sense

it makes her worst then Jason todd. Hate him or not, guy pretty consistent

[Drink]

That's another thing;

Why repeat the same story of a Bat-sidekick falling from grace, when they did the Jason Todd story less than a year ago? Even ignoring the fan reaction and the plotholes, it's pretty damn redundant.

And I don't think Gabrych was planning on leading her into leading the League, or at least that's certainly not how I and many others interpreted it.

[IamtheRock3]

That's another thing;

Why repeat the same story of a Bat-sidekick falling from grace, when they did the Jason Todd story less than a year ago? Even ignoring the fan reaction and the plotholes, it's pretty damn redundant.

And I don't think Gabrych was planning on leading her into leading the League, or at least that's certainly not how I and many others interpreted it.


Also unlike Batgirl, Jason actully kind of consisten

[Alan2099]

Batgirl always seemed to me to be a character that had very little appeal to those directly outside of her fanbse. It's not like she even got very many guest starring roles anywhere. While she could be intresting at times, her book was poorly handled and her character was extremely hard for the average person to relate to.

The fact that the character itself went against what most people think about when they think batgirl really didn't help matters. To be perfectly honest, the character probably had a better chance of surviving intact if she had picked any other name besides Batgirl.

I think they were just trying to get rid of a character that was basically unprofitable and unappealing and replace it with one who had more mainstream appeal.

[Drink]

Batgirl always seemed to me to be a character that had very little appeal to those directly outside of her fanbse. It's not like she even got very many guest starring roles anywhere. While she could be intresting at times, her book was poorly handled and her character was extremely hard for the average person to relate to.

The fact that the character itself went against what most people think about when they think batgirl really didn't help matters. To be perfectly honest, the character probably had a better chance of surviving intact if she had picked any other name besides Batgirl.

I think they were just trying to get rid of a character that was basically unprofitable and unappealing and replace it with one who had more mainstream appeal.

I'm not so sure on the latter part. I mean, she is still Batgirl.

But anyway, it was really more of that few other writers ever picked up on the character. It's not so much that she wasn't liked as much as just not advertised very well. She mainly got guest appearances only in Bat-Titles, and even then they were minimal.

They simply never tried, and therin lies the problem. I think the fact that she had the fanbase that she did when she showed up no where else says something about her.

And perhaps you're right about her probably not surviving without the Bat-prefix. But can you honestly say that the likes of the new Batwoman, or even the original Robin, would ever get as noticed as they were without the connection by name or association to Batman? It's a good argument, but shortsighted.

[DonC]

Batgirl always seemed to me to be a character that had very little appeal to those directly outside of her fanbse. It's not like she even got very many guest starring roles anywhere. While she could be intresting at times, her book was poorly handled and her character was extremely hard for the average person to relate to.

The fact that the character itself went against what most people think about when they think batgirl really didn't help matters. To be perfectly honest, the character probably had a better chance of surviving intact if she had picked any other name besides Batgirl.

I think they were just trying to get rid of a character that was basically unprofitable and unappealing and replace it with one who had more mainstream appeal.


Dan DiDio did a little word association at Wizard World Chicago. He asked the crowd to shout out the first thing they thought of when he spoke a name. He said, "Green Lantern."

Most people said, "Hal Jordan."

He said, "Batgirl."

Most people said, "Barbara Gordon."

So, it looks to me like Cass had her shot, she didn't catch on and she's gone. She may call herself Batgirl right now, but I don't see her doing so for long.

[IamtheRock3]

Dan DiDio did a little word association at Wizard World Chicago. He asked the crowd to shout out the first thing they thought of when he spoke a name. He said, "Green Lantern."

Most people said, "Hal Jordan."

He said, "Batgirl."

Most people said, "Barbara Gordon."

So, it looks to me like Cass had her shot, she didn't catch on and she's gone. She may call herself Batgirl right now, but I don't see her doing so for long.


in fairness same can be said about Robin. People would say Dick Grayon

Probally specter as well

It take new guys a while to destory the old guys name. And actully have to have other writer acknowledge them

I mean dont think ANYONE could replace barbra as Batgirl to the point where the first thing you think of is NOT babra. Namely in a short amount of Time. Dont care who writing the charcter and how good the charcter is

[Effect]

That word game doesn't really prove anything though. It really is a case of what is more well known and that has been Barbara for the longest time but she hasn't been Batgirl in comics for what 10 to 15 years?

She still has a connection with Gorden himself.

However in the cartoons and movies she's Batgirl. When you go in order of things, which you usually do in shows, you have to cover that period. The comics haven't been anywhere near the period shows and movies cover for decades.

Start showing shows that reflect the comics current situation and in 20 or 30 years those answers will clearly change. Also a lot of peoples answers, this is especially true with long time fans in any fandom, are clouded by nostalgia. People have a hard time letting go and at these gathers are going to be long term hardcore fans. Not you average fan most likely. You really have to look at the whys in situations like this to get a more correct picture.

I agree that if you say Robin you'll get Dick Grayson as an answer and how long has it been since he was Robin? What is shown on TV when it comes to Robin?

Do you honestly consider the time Cass had to be a "fair shot" compared to the constant exposure Barb has had at being Batgirl, even when she wasn't Batgirl in the comics for this long of time? Come on.

[Constantine Drakon]

Dan DiDio did a little word association at Wizard World Chicago. He asked the crowd to shout out the first thing they thought of when he spoke a name. He said, "Green Lantern."

Most people said, "Hal Jordan."

He said, "Batgirl."

Most people said, "Barbara Gordon."

So, it looks to me like Cass had her shot, she didn't catch on and she's gone. She may call herself Batgirl right now, but I don't see her doing so for long.


Note that he didn't say "Robin". Or ask people their opinions on the new Flash.

The term for this is "Stacking the deck".

[Damo]

Just wait until he has Renee Montoya become the new Question. Then there'll be people saying "Renee Montoya," "Vic Sage," and "That guy, not the girl, but I never learned the guy's real name. He was on Justice League Unlimited... he had yellow socks!"

[Captain Jim]

I think it's a lot simpler than some of you are making out. Didio simply didn't like the character and thought there were too many bat-spinoffs running around. The same thing almost did in Nightwing and suspect his sales were a lot higher than Cassie's.

[DonC]

I think it's a lot simpler than some of you are making out. Didio simply didn't like the character and thought there were too many bat-spinoffs running around. The same thing almost did in Nightwing and suspect his sales were a lot higher than Cassie's.


DiDio has said Nightwing almost got canceled because he felt the stories appearing in the comic weren't good. I'm not saying that's the reason he axed Batgirl, but it is possible. However, I agree that streamlining the Bat-universe was probably the reason Batgirl was canceled. I'm sure The Adventures of Superman sold enough copies to continue, but it was canceled as well.

[Captain Jim]

DiDio has said Nightwing almost got canceled because he felt the stories appearing in the comic weren't good.

But that isn't all he said. He also said something about the character being redundant and undermining the Robin book. That's not an exact quote, but it was something like that.

[Magneto_X]

I'm sure The Adventures of Superman sold enough copies to continue, but it was canceled as well.

That's different. Superman has always had at least 3 core books for himself, Cass had only Batgirl.

I have no idea why DC didn't include her more in the Bat-titles as much. Tim Drake and Nightwing reguarly show up in the core Bat-titles all the time and they have their own titles. It would give Cass more advertising just being around those titles. Even if it was just a cameo every few months.

They definitely could have added her to the BoP cast, too.

[DonC]

But that isn't all he said. He also said something about the character being redundant and undermining the Robin book. That's not an exact quote, but it was something like that.


At Wizard World Chicago, DiDio was asked about DC allegedly planning on killing Nightwing. He said he asked a bunch of DCU writers about that idea and they all said they liked Nightwing and didn't want him killed. His reply was, "Then tell better stories with him." Who these writers were, he didn't say. I took that to mean he felt Nightwing's book wasn't very good, but I could be wrong.

[Drink]

Dan DiDio did a little word association at Wizard World Chicago. He asked the crowd to shout out the first thing they thought of when he spoke a name. He said, "Green Lantern."

Most people said, "Hal Jordan."

He said, "Batgirl."

Most people said, "Barbara Gordon."

So, it looks to me like Cass had her shot, she didn't catch on and she's gone. She may call herself Batgirl right now, but I don't see her doing so for long.

At the same time though, DiDio did an impromptu poll at a convention, where he asked the audience if they would prefer Barbara as Batgirl, or as Oracle, and thus have Cass as Batgirl. The applause was strongly for the latter.

[Damo]

DiDio has said Nightwing almost got canceled because he felt the stories appearing in the comic weren't good. I'm not saying that's the reason he axed Batgirl, but it is possible. However, I agree that streamlining the Bat-universe was probably the reason Batgirl was canceled. I'm sure The Adventures of Superman sold enough copies to continue, but it was canceled as well.

Sales were kinda... consistently improving on Batgirl... and from what I saw, the fan reaction on Batgirl was that the stories were likewise getting much better (unlike fan reactions to Nightwing and Robin).

And if you're streamlining the bat-books, Catwoman wasn't selling as well... and as for "too many bat-spinoffs" being the reason for getting rid of Batgirl... he does it while simultaneously announcing Batwoman... ba-whuh?

I am in no way saying that couldn't have been their reasoning. DC is entirely capable of doing things as a result of flawed reasoning.

[Drink]

I've found the perfect way for DC to explain EvilCass without simply ignoring what's happened, through the marvel of Casstoons!!

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8875/cluck1td0.png
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5271/cluck2fy2.png
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4376/cluck3kf3.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4517/cluck4ow2.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3671/cluck5yw0.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4326/cluck6yd9.png
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/8114/cluck7wb2.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4038/cluck8az6.png

The sad thing is I would totally take this.

[elias_A]

I think Didio wanted to kill Dick Grayson but turn Jason Todd into Nightwing, so the series would not have been cancelled.

Anyway, what I wanted to say, I just can't imagine DC deciding they don't want a Batgirl at all. Cause it's such a well-recognized name.
Maybe they think the all-star series is enough. That's possible.
But I am quite sure they want a Batgirl in the "real" DCU also:
Either Cass, or Babs, or a new Batgirl.

"Streamlining" the Bat-universe might be a reason, but for that I think it would be enough for Batgirl to stay in her own city, so allowing a closer relationship between Tim and Bruce.

Another thought: Maybe the Titans East will prove more heroic than villains and get their own series? (I think DC said they wouldn't, but they would have to say that not to give away the outcome of the conflict.)

[PretenderNX01]

Note that he didn't say "Robin". Or ask people their opinions on the new Flash.

The term for this is "Stacking the deck".

Dan: "The Flash"
Crowd: "Barry Allen!"

Dan: "Aw, crap. Uh... The new Flash"
Crowd: "Wally West!"

Dan: "Bart Allen"
Crowd: "Impulse!"

Dan: "Dammit"

(Yes, i'm still hating him for killing off Superboy)


I have no idea why DC didn't include her more in the Bat-titles as much. Tim Drake and Nightwing reguarly show up in the core Bat-titles all the time and they have their own titles. It would give Cass more advertising just being around those titles. Even if it was just a cameo every few months.

They definitely could have added her to the BoP cast, too.

Yeah, the only time I remeber her being in a Bat-title was in the Gotham Nights storyarc about someone investigating Jason's death. She taked to the guy on Bruce's behalf. Even the massive bat-cast guest stars in Jeph Loeb's "Hush" arc didn't include Batgirl.

[Effect]

Maybe he wanted her to fail from the start? Here me out. Perhaps she was made Batgirl for DC's whole diversity push. What he didn't count on (was he around when she was created and became Batgirl?) was for her to actually catch on. As a solid fanbase started to appear and her title started doing better then so many other titles he found it harder and harder to justify canceling the book which might have been something that was planned from the very start. A whole we tried but you weren't interested approach type of thing. Half hearted at best with an easy out for them with a way to put the blame on fans. Yet things didn't go that way for them. So she stuck around and until he got the idea to somehow reintroduce Batwoman.

Now the thing about Batwoman is that it's totally out of the blue. I don't ever, in any part of the fandom online or offiline, ever recall any talk or desire to see a return of Batwoman. None what so ever. Even the animated film didn't seem that popular even though it was pretty good and then the approach to that was really different and more creative then anything I've seen with this Batwoman or the past one. She's been gone for more then 20 years so why bring her back?

It might be a combination of him seeing an opening with Infinite Crisis, all the press and attention it would get. That with throwing people off with a Batwoman that could very well be Cass getting an upgrade in name or perhaps even Barbara walking again (meaning Batgirl could even act as her Robin to Barb's Batman). I seem to recall there being a lot of vague talk about BW until the very end and Cass title was finally canceled and it shown who Batwoman would really be. That wasn't a pretty time since I do think DC was purposely shady about that whole knowing full well what a lot of people were thinking but not saying anything.

I don't buy the whole streamlining argument cause if that was the case why introduce Batwoman, keep Catwoman around, give Robin and Nightwings bigger profiles and not cut down their appearances one title each. Robin has been in several places since OYL if I recall. Batman titles, his title, Teen Titans, Wonder Woman.

In a way I think is that she was set up to fail but she didn't even though they stacked the deck against her (no appearances elsewhere, no crossover save for ones that had to happen (War Games for example). Until it was realized they'd have to just get rid of her since people weren't losing interest but it was building again. Force the evil angle seems like something that came up on a spot at the tail ending of some meeting, so no one would want her but even that didn't work. I could be very wrong at this though and really reaching but that's what it sounds like.

[KenK]

I've found the perfect way for DC to explain EvilCass without simply ignoring what's happened, through the marvel of Casstoons!!

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8875/cluck1td0.png
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5271/cluck2fy2.png
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4376/cluck3kf3.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4517/cluck4ow2.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3671/cluck5yw0.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4326/cluck6yd9.png
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/8114/cluck7wb2.png
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4038/cluck8az6.png

The sad thing is I would totally take this.

HA!!! That's priceless!

[Babylon23]

Personally, I think everybody's reading far too much into this situation. I don't think there's any real Batgirl conspiracy here (Batgate?). It's absurd to think DC would set any book up to fail from the outset.

I'd say there's a couple of very simple reasons DC cancelled batgirl:

1) They're looking to promote Batwoman in the long run, and didn't want to distract from that character with a Batgirl title.

2) They thought Robin could use a boost to his rather lacklustre rogues gallery, and decided a former associate and hero would work well, and maybe add a little emotional impact.

3) In discussing Nightwing, Didio stated that he thought the character was superflous (i.e. he's no longer Robin, and he'll never become Batman). When he spoke to the DC writers, they convinced him otherwise. Part of the reason for bringing Wolfman onto the title was to give the character a clearly defined role in the DCU. Maybe DC just couldn't find a role for Cassandra Cain.

4) They thought the addition of Cassandra to Robin 150 would help boost sales. In the short term, it did, with issue 150 selling around 12,000 more copies than the previous issues. Of course, sales have dropped substantially, although the book continues to sell better than it did pre-OYL (only by about 3,000 copies). Naturally, this doesn't offset the loss of Batgirl readership (around 25,000 copies).

Now, I'm not saying any of these reasons are right or wrong, just that I think DC was thinking along these lines. Hell, completely ignoring continuity and destroying a character gave Marvel a major crossover with House of M. Maybe DC is hoping they can pull off the same thing with Batgirl.

One thing I was thinking of, and it may be a positive for the Batgirl fans. Perhaps Cassandra will serve as an "anti-Terra" in the upcoming Titans East storyline, basically a spy for the Titans working with their enemies, much the same way Terra served Deathstroke in The Judas Contract. While it doesn't necessarily mesh with Beechan's Robin story, it might be a way of redeeming the character.

[jadrax]

The thing in Robin 150 was either a clone, parallax or something that needs retcon punching.

Roll on the next crisis.

[IamtheRock3]

oh dont thing it was a conspricy for her to fail

babylon gave good reasons why


But think the reason her Villans turns was so Off, is they wanted to kill her mometom and make her less symytectic so the bat family wont look like jerks for ignoring her and letting another member turn bad. Also make it so Cass fans wont get on the new batwoman to much

[Captain Jim]

3) In discussing Nightwing, Didio stated that he thought the character was superflous (i.e. he's no longer Robin, and he'll never become Batman).

Thank you.

[Blight]

Yeah, the only time I remeber her being in a Bat-title was in the Gotham Nights storyarc about someone investigating Jason's death. She taked to the guy on Bruce's behalf. Even the massive bat-cast guest stars in Jeph Loeb's "Hush" arc didn't include Batgirl.

Yet no mention of her name and the only Batgirl remembered is Barbara course it had to be mentioned when he was thinking of killing the Joker and reasons why he should be.. but no mention at all?

Not to mention in Superman/Batman he has a Clayface appear as the Babs version. Yeah doesn't take much to consider that Loeb wasn't fond of Cass.

[Doom]

Yet no mention of her name and the only Batgirl remembered is Barbara course it had to be mentioned when he was thinking of killing the Joker and reasons why he should be.. but no mention at all?

Not to mention in Superman/Batman he has a Clayface appear as the Babs version. Yeah doesn't take much to consider that Loeb wasn't fond of Cass.

To be fair to Loeb, he did have (Cass) Batgirl appear in Superman/Batman #5. But that issue also had Cir-El Supergirl and Natasha as Steel, so that story arc had almost all the external family characters appearing.

But Loeb really could of done with using Batgirl in Hush where every other Batcharacter made an apperance.

Funny how he used Cir-El Supergirl 3 times yet she's long gone.

[elias_A]

Maybe he wanted her to fail from the start? Here me out. Perhaps she was made Batgirl for DC's whole diversity push.

If by "diversity push" you mean they wanted to demonstrate political correctness by using an asian character, I cannot see that in this case, because it was hardly ever mentioned that Cass was supposed to be asian. She had no connections to asian culture since she was raised by her non-asian dad in a bunker. And they really confirmed that her mother was asian only in the last issue of the series.

[Captain Jim]

I found the Didio quote I was trying to remember regarding Nightwing. This is from the Baltimore Comic Convention (as quoted in Newsarama):


We were looking for the big death in Infinite Crisis – the big moment. We were looking for something that would have equal import and merit and weight in this story. One of the things I’ve been proven wrong about is that I had felt that Dick Grayson was a redundant character – Tim Drake had filled his role as Robin, he would never be Batman, so where could he go?

My big fear was that Nightwing would get older than Batman. The thought was that if we removed Dick form the equation that would allow Bruce Wayne to stand alone as Batman, and to firmly establish Tim Drake as Robin.

[The Cool Thatguy]

We were looking for the big death in Infinite Crisis – the big moment. We were looking for something that would have equal import and merit and weight in this story. One of the things I’ve been proven wrong about is that I had felt that Dick Grayson was a redundant character – Tim Drake had filled his role as Robin, he would never be Batman, so where could he go?

My big fear was that Nightwing would get older than Batman. The thought was that if we removed Dick form the equation that would allow Bruce Wayne to stand alone as Batman, and to firmly establish Tim Drake as Robin.


I find it ironic that Didio, a comnic book editor, is limited by his imagination. So what if Nightwing will never be Batman? I always thought Dick's whole point was that he was his own man, his own hero.

IMO, Cass could have had a nice little niche by focusing Batman's international spy/terrorist rogues. Her father was an international hitman and trained her to take his place. Cass would be right at home taking on KGBeast, Echo, etc. Crime noir didn't suit her as well as taking on guys like Deathstroke and such.

[Effect]

Maybe Cass was looking more and more like a or the viable choice or better/more realistic and reasonable heir to Batman's legacy then Nightwing and Robin and DC couldn't have that?

Going off a character stand point in terms of what she could do, motitvation, etc. Not really popularity in general since I don't think that should be a factor in the end.

What are the chances of that?

[Drink]

If by "diversity push" you mean they wanted to demonstrate political correctness by using an asian character, I cannot see that in this case, because it was hardly ever mentioned that Cass was supposed to be asian. She had no connections to asian culture since she was raised by her non-asian dad in a bunker. And they really confirmed that her mother was asian only in the last issue of the series.

That I think was a good thing about Cass. That way her existence wouldn't be "LOOKIT ME, I'M ASIAN!".

To tell you the truth, I don't know if she knew what ethnicity she was, nor was she overly concerned either.

She just considered herself a person. Which is probably better PCness than all the Bat-lesbians in the world.

[PretenderNX01]

We were looking for the big death in Infinite Crisis – the big moment. We were looking for something that would have equal import and merit and weight in this story.
See, thats why I think Infinite Crisis was a failure. It wasn't at all original, just a retread of bringing together a bunch versions of the characters, using a cosmic force then killing of somebody at the end.


One of the things I’ve been proven wrong about is that I had felt that Dick Grayson was a redundant character – Tim Drake had filled his role as Robin, he would never be Batman, so where could he go?
Well, Power Girl and Supergirl both exist as independant characters despite the fact that neither will grow up to be Superwoman and equal to Superman. Is that why he kiled off Superboy? Cause he'll never be Superman, or is it because he needed a stunt death? Can't kill Supergirl again so kill Superboy.


My big fear was that Nightwing would get older than Batman. The thought was that if we removed Dick form the equation that would allow Bruce Wayne to stand alone as Batman, and to firmly establish Tim Drake as Robin.
You know when they killed off Jason Todd the got alot of bad press from people who thought they were kiling the original Robin. I don't think it'd be any better even if he's Nightwing. And all for some lame un-original "event".

I have to agree that he doesn't have any imagniation. I think that it all just shows what a mess DC comics have become.

[Constantine Drakon]

I think it gives DC way too much credit to say they deliberately tried to piss off Batgirl plans as part of some grand scheme. I think the people that made this decision honestly thought it would prove popular overall.

[Lex]

So what do you think?I don't think it was a business decision. I think it had more to do with Didio's desire to take the character in a new direction. He seems to make a lot of decisions that have more to do with story than business.

And I still think that Beechen shouldn't be villified for the story he was told to tell.

[Damo]

And I still think that Beechen shouldn't be villified for the story he was told to tell.


Precisely.

He should be villified for telling that story in an unprofessionally bad manner.



When I took on the book, I was told by DC that the first arc would find Robin framed for murder, with Cassandra ultimately revealed as the framer. The details of that – the mechanics, the motivation, the outcome – were left largely up to me, and I worked those out with the editors.

"The details of that" are what have a lot of people furious and turned what might have been a good or bad story into an atrocious one.