What if Jason Todd never died ?

[invader]

How would batman books be affected if the second robin never died

[invader]

Good things that would happen if todd never died
1. Bruce jones run on nightwing would have never been that bad
2. Bruce would not have to put another adolescent in the line of fire
3. Tim drake and cassandra sandmark would have never had that awkard kiss (noting the fact drake probally would not have existed)
4. Batman and son would not have contadicted Batman face the face storyline
5.Batman would not be so nice since oyl later cause the dynamic duo would be two dickheads

[Effect]

I think and my limited knowledge on what Batman was like at that point in time (as a series) is that things would have been pretty different. Had Jason lived I think Batman wouldn't have let him be Robin for quite some time. Not only until he healed but until he was in a better place mentally. I think it would have allowed for Bruce and Jason to bond even closer and become more father and son had he been allowed to live.

I like to think it would have made Batman a darker figure but in different ways. I think he would have become more intense as to not let something like that happen again. Meaning he would have stepped up his training and that of Jason to an even higher degree. I think we also would have seen a redone Robin suit a lot sooner as well. We'd see Jason Todd/Robin in the Teen Titans as well I think.

Most importantly is I think Jason would have had a personality change as well. He'd have to after what he went through and I think the personality change would have made him more liked among readers and he'd might be Robin to this day.

This is mainly what I wish would have happen I guess. I'd love to write a fan fiction about this or see a Elseworlds like this.

[Gaspard]

I don't know how the books would have been affected. I haven't read that much stories with Jason, especially from before A Death in a Family, which I still haven't finished either. But I do agree that the best thing to happen to him was to die. I know that's kind of cynical, but it just makes sense if no one liked reading about him. Maybe if they kept him alive they sales might have dropped, some people hating him so much they had dropped the book back in the '80s? And I don't see why anyone would have created Tim Drake if Jason was alive.

What would have happened between Jason and Bats if Jason had lived? I think he might have eventually done something irrational, ala Damian. From the very little pieces of stories that I've read about him in, he seems like a hot head who doesn't always agree with Bats. Maybe someday he would have crossed the line and possibly kill some hoodlum and Bats would have had to do something about it. That's actually kind of a cool concept since Jason would have complete knowledge about Batman's identity, tools, whereabouts etc.

[Gaspard]

A little more stuff on my earlier post that I forgot to mention:

Earlier I mentioned the death of Jason being the best thing to happen to him, well, maybe not him as a character since he was wiped out, but to the Batman mythos, to Batman's tragedy, now having lost a "son". I've read Batman: Year Three and that book describes Batman's dealing with the loss pretty well. He seems really out of place, but it's just because of the storyline that continues after Jason's death.

His death also adds another feather in the Joker's cap. Just makes him now a more personal enemy of the Batman's. How he has kept himself from killing him for all these years shows some character.

If Jason hadn't died and would have ended the way I see it, he would have rivaled the greatness as an arch enemy of Batman with the likes of Ra's al Ghul, The Joker and Two-Face, altough there would be a lot of similarities between Two-Face and Jason, with Batman feeling some guilt/sympathy towards them.

+ I like your ideas too Effect.

[invader]

I know alot of people who hate todd but imagine this if todd never died azarel would not have become batman first todd and nightwing would have been more then capable. even if azarael become the bat he probally would not have rejected todd. the whole storyline with bane would have to be written differntly. Todd would have probally went to the villan or either piss bats off to the point where he beat todd into unconcioussnes. Batman's old dickhead attitude would not piss off as much people as his old robin was as stern as he was. Todd could have handeled war games better and would be a better fit for the oyl outsiders as it would perfectly explain the leaders thinking as nightwing in his solo seris contrast the one in the outsiders

[Sean Whitmore]

I had absolutely no problem with Jason Todd. Zero. Zip. Liked him a lot.

That said, his death led the way to Tim Drake and some GREAT stories under Chuck Dixon. Those alone are enough to make me happy Todd was out of the picture.


SEAN

[MBBWAYNE]

Had Jason Todd not died he probably would have been the best Robin since Dick Grayson. Probably not the detective Dick is, but nonetheless an excellent Robin.

[The Shadow]

That said, his death led the way to Tim Drake and some GREAT stories under Chuck Dixon. Those alone are enough to make me happy Todd was out of the picture.
I agree 100%.

Had Jason Todd not died he probably would have been the best Robin since Dick Grayson
That would not have been that hard really... he would have been the ONLY Robin since Dick ;)

What we got instead was a vastly superior Robin in Tim Drake. Don't believe me? Read some of the old Todd as Tobin stories... especially AFTER Crisis.

[Superboy Prime]

I don't know if Todd would have been the best Robin since Dick Grayson, but I do think it would have made for some interesting stories with Todd growing more and more into the role of Robin. Considering since it was already well established that Todd's attitude, and relationship with Wayne was very much different than what Wayne experienced before. And especially in contrast with the Grayson/Wayne relationship.

[The Shadow]

I don't know if Todd would have been the best Robin since Dick Grayson
Sure he would have.... he would have been the ONLY Robin since Dick Grayson. If Todd had lived there would never have been a Tim or Steph as Robin's 3 and 4.

[Superboy Prime]

Sure he would have.... he would have been the ONLY Robin since Dick Grayson. If Todd had lived there would never have been a Tim or Steph as Robin's 3 and 4.

You can chalk that up to me just being a fan of Tim as Robin than Todd. And if Todd did not recieve the phone calls of "Death" I would still like to think that Tim could have possibly been introduced as a character that could have been conveyed as a replacement, or even better, as an actual replacement to an often snotty Todd. You have to remember, there was a Robin 4. Even without the death of Drake (Robin 3). So maybe the same could have possibly happened in the case of Todd's Robin 2 as well?

[DWEarhart]

That son of a bitch has attached himself to me like a wretched leech. He has grown on me so bad. That Outsiders cover with him and Nightwing is screaming mini-series written by Andreyko, or Wolfman, someone proven at least, Nicieza would rock.

[invader]

I think drake is a better robin personally but imagine a red hood and batman team thats a killer combo there be no need fo all star batman and robin it would be there anyway

[rwe1138]

If Jason Todd hadn't died then Sarah Essen-Gordon would probably be the Red Hood.

[Rylon]

What we got instead was a vastly superior Robin in Tim Drake.I agree. Here is the Million Dollar question: would the writer's have changed Jason Todd's personality to one more like Tim's? Jason's death precipitated a number of complaints about the death of Robin. Few people seemed to care about Jason himself. (Although, the voting was close, even the editor stated that he voted to let Jason live only because it was wrong to kill Robin, any Robin.)

So DC had a problem: we can't kill Robin, but no one likes Jason. I think it's possible that the writers and editors would have done a character overhaul on Jason so that people would like him. Batman Year 3 would have still happened, but it's successor, A Lonely Place of Dying, (or another story in that time frame, sense technically none of the events would have happened) might have introduced a new and improved Jason Todd rather than a new Robin.

My only problem with the death of Jason is that his death overshadowed the death of Bruce's parents; it gave many writers ammunition for Batdick. Jason's costume in the batcave meant that writer's and artists often paused there, some times it seemed that Batman was the way he was because of Jason, not his parents.

[Buried Alien]

When you think about it, Jason Todd (the infamous Jason Todd whom half the fans disliked and whose claim to fame is being killed by the Joker) as Robin was a surprisingly short-lived phenomenon (not as short-lived as Stephanie Brown's tenure as Robin, but Stephanie's impact on the BAT-world was never close to comparable to Jason's). The Pre-COIE Jason Todd became Robin as early as 1983, but that was more or less a different character of the same appearance and same name. The Post-COIE Jason Todd didn't show up until after BATMAN: YEAR ONE was published...a mere eighteen months or so before he was killed off in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY. It's interesting to think that for all the impact that Jason's death has had on Batman over the years, his entire career as Robin spanned less than two years' worth of comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Shadow]

I agree. Here is the Million Dollar question: would the writer's have changed Jason Todd's personality to one more like Tim's?
He was more like Tim originally... actually he was a mix of Dick and Tim. He was given his attitude overhaul after Crisis.

The Jason voted to die in 1988 (of which I participated and voted YES to kill) was the snotty punk. The Jason from Batman 386 to 405-ish was the Dick-Tim hybrid.

Jason's death precipitated a number of complaints about the death of Robin. Few people seemed to care about Jason himself. (Although, the voting was close, even the editor stated that he voted to let Jason live only because it was wrong to kill Robin, any Robin.)
Because Nightwing was in existance and Dick was no longer robin I think it really gave the impression that anyone could be Robin. Whereas you may have some fill-in's but there will only be Bruce Wayne as Batman (and Clark as Superman and Peter as Spider-Man)... Todd proved Robin was interchangable and while Robin the character was iconic, the person inhabiting the costume was not (like Bruce Wayne is synonimous with Batman).

So DC had a problem: we can't kill Robin, but no one likes Jason. I think it's possible that the writers and editors would have done a character overhaul on Jason so that people would like him.
They made him slightly different from Dick, so he had a unique personality at first and then they gave him a personality overhaul and people hated that. The third strike was people voting for death. DC should have taken the hint.

My only problem with the death of Jason is that his death overshadowed the death of Bruce's parents; it gave many writers ammunition for Batdick.
Batdick was sustained for 20 years! That's a looong time. In fact that's been the most successful incarnation of Batman to date. So was it REALLY a bad thing?

[Buried Alien]

Batdick was sustained for 20 years! That's a looong time. In fact that's been the most successful incarnation of Batman to date. So was it REALLY a bad thing?

No, but it had played itself out. After twenty years, the once novel and fresh "Batjerk" concept had become a tired cliche and was completely spent. Fans were ready for a different direction.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Shadow]

No, but it had played itself out. After twenty years, the once novel and fresh "Batjerk" concept had become a tired cliche and was completely spent. Fans were ready for a different direction.
I'm not disputing it was time for a change! Just stating a fact.

[The Shadow]

Here's a fact. Bring him back was even more a worst idea then ever. Now most fan want him to just stay dead.
I agree about bringing him back.

Retcon Punch=LAMEST. Return. Ever.

Judd Winick ruined a pivotal moment in Batman's history for a crap character and a crap story.

But fans seem to like Red Hood (though I don't know whay for the life of me).

[Rylon]

He was more like Tim originally... actually he was a mix of Dick and Tim. He was given his attitude overhaul after Crisis.I would imagin then that, seeing that the (then) new attitude wasn't sucessful, the writers and editors would have tryed to bring him back to his pre-crisis attitudes.

Like you, I really enjoy Tim Drake as Robin. I've always considered myself more of a Robin fan than a Batman fan, and it's because of Tim and Chuck Dixon.

Though I could have done without the moving covers in Robin 3. Oh, wait, I did. ;) (I bought the alterintive non-moving covers.)

Because Nightwing was in existance and Dick was no longer robin I think it really gave the impression that anyone could be Robin. Whereas you may have some fill-in's but there will only be Bruce Wayne as Batman (and Clark as Superman and Peter as Spider-Man)... Todd proved Robin was interchangable and while Robin the character was iconic, the person inhabiting the costume was not (like Bruce Wayne is synonimous with Batman).Kid sidekicks are like that. Even Captian American went through two Buckys. ;)

Batdick was sustained for 20 years! That's a looong time. In fact that's been the most successful incarnation of Batman to date. So was it REALLY a bad thing?No, it wasn't really a bad thing. There are several incarnations of Batdick I like. Most of them involve the Timverse JL and Morrison JLA. Another bit that worked was pre-Robin Tim Drake. Bruce was a hard nose about several things prior to Tim becomeing Robin, and it worked. Bruce wasn't being a Dick; he was trying to keep a 14 year old kid alive, and it worked.

And the giant picture of Bruce's parents that hang over Bruce's fireplace means nothing?It means a great deal, but I've seen the Robin costume more often than the giant picture of his parents. Maybe it's just not in the Batman comics I have.

[invader]

Todd's return was not that bad but he would seem better leading the outsiders cause they have no bouandries unfortunly nightwing does. It would stop batman having underaged children fighting with him. Plus if they kept todd batman would eventually submiited him to arkahm and would probally had never fount his mother and turn into some phsco path killer. Being the top assain in the legion of shadows. His appearence would better morrrison recent run.

[invader]

Well he's back for good as he has apperances in green arrow and outsiders in january. He was also never allowed to reach full potienal. Imagine red hood in war games as a double agent leading gotam games while posing as one of batmans sidekicks

[Effect]

He never should have been killed in the first place and I'm glad to him him back. My answers for the newly added poll.

I'm glad he's going to be used more but I just hope they don't turn him into a straight villian. He really shouldn't be and never came off that way to me. Just had a problem with Batman but still wanted to take care of bad guys. Just very similar to Punisher in that regard and that should be the direction they go in with showing a struggle of him not wanting to kill but finding it hard not to since he feels it's effective.

I really wish they had kept him at least as the Nightwing in outsiders. I still believe that was Jason Todd and he was set to be Nightwing in the Nightwing title until Dick was allowed to live. Instead of rewriting the Outsiders OYL story they just kept it and replaced Superman calling Nightwing his real name (would have been Jason) to Dick. That was Jason's style not Dicks I feel. Though making it Dick allowed Dick to come off as a strong character. A shame they decided against it.

I agree Jason really would fit well in the Outsiders book. Just give him back his Hush costume and things are set.

[invader]

He never should have been killed in the first place and I'm glad to him him back. My answers for the newly added poll.

I'm glad he's going to be used more but I just hope they don't turn him into a straight villian. He really shouldn't be and never came off that way to me. Just had a problem with Batman but still wanted to take care of bad guys. Just very similar to Punisher in that regard and that should be the direction they go in with showing a struggle of him not wanting to kill but finding it hard not to since he feels it's effective.

I really wish they had kept him at least as the Nightwing in outsiders. I still believe that was Jason Todd and he was set to be Nightwing in the Nightwing title until Dick was allowed to live. Instead of rewriting the Outsiders OYL story they just kept it and replaced Superman calling Nightwing his real name (would have been Jason) to Dick. That was Jason's style not Dicks I feel. Though making it Dick allowed Dick to come off as a strong character. A shame they decided against it.

I agree Jason really would fit well in the Outsiders book. Just give him back his Hush costume and things are set.
never thought about the hush cotume he had

[Damo]

He should never have existed, and I'm very unhappy having him back.

As I saw it, when the time came to vote on his fate, killing him was the lesser of two evils. I didn't like the idea of a dead Robin. But this punk that was calling himself Robin had apparently killed, and was, rather than being a light to the Batman's dark, a dark and nasty piece of work. A dead Robin was bad, but a Robin that kills... that's worse.

Now we've got a world where he's back, killing, and Batman still has to deal with the Jason's "death", along with the death of Steph (although Lord knows none of the writers seem to think he should be bothered by that).

So I really couldn't be more unhappy with how things turned out.

[invader]

Batman viewd spoiler as nothing but a hindrence i am not saying todd should have stayed robin as i think todd would eventually get fired like everyone else who has been robin. Then some batman villan would have probally found and metored todd making him who he is today. Anyway if talia al ghul supports red hood. Why won't she use it as a levrage to mess with batman mental state. Also he's the best person in her extensive lsit of asssociates.

[invader]

You can chalk that up to me just being a fan of Tim as Robin than Todd. And if Todd did not recieve the phone calls of "Death" I would still like to think that Tim could have possibly been introduced as a character that could have been conveyed as a replacement, or even better, as an actual replacement to an often snotty Todd. You have to remember, there was a Robin 4. Even without the death of Drake (Robin 3). So maybe the same could have possibly happened in the case of Todd's Robin 2 as well?
Only cause tim dad stopped him from being robin other wise there would have been no room for cluemaste's daughter. Plus nobody wanted to be around jason so he would not be off with other groups to much so he would not be fired like dick. Latsly if he had not died we would be given a new robin recently as todd is 19 i think. is true drake is only 5'1 i read that in the absolute guide to the dark knight and is't also around 150. That's around my friend size but she is taller. That does not seem like a capable or ideal size for a superheo sidekick or not.

[invader]

Why do most of u hate todd ?

[Effect]

I don't think them prefering he stayed dead as meaning they hate him. Some people think that him coming back to life means A Death in the Family was pointless or that somehow it lessens the pain Bruce went through over the years. It doesn't at all I feel since all of that still happen but thats the stance I've seen someon people take. There are some that just hate him no matter what but most of what I've seen is what I said, him being alive again someone lessens what happen. I don't get that really. I just see that it adds to the overall situation since Todd still died and Bruce still believed he was dead all this time until recently and for the most part it wasn't like Jason was just relaxing, he was brain damaged for long time after being brought back to life first in the hospital, then on the streets and then in Talia's care where he was for a while.

[hmnut73]

I couldn't care less about Jason. But I think in death he represented that the DC world was a dangerous place, and it makes actually makes it easier to believe that characters fight and die, they aren't just wearing funny clothes and playing gaming. Bring Jason back is saying "No one ever dies, ever." If you die don't worry on a long enough time line everyone comes back to life (usually with a new power or skill). Jason's death added speical meaning to the Batman Mythos and now it is just another story

[shanejayell]

If Jason hadn't died he might have been shocked into a attitude change. More serious and driven he'd have returned to his training and become a effective partner to Bats.

Sadly, that's not how it went.

[brundlefly]

I couldn't care less about Jason. But I think in death he represented that the DC world was a dangerous place, and it makes actually makes it easier to believe that characters fight and die, they aren't just wearing funny clothes and playing gaming. Bring Jason back is saying "No one ever dies, ever." If you die don't worry on a long enough time line everyone comes back to life (usually with a new power or skill). Jason's death added speical meaning to the Batman Mythos and now it is just another story

Agreed. He was more useful dead than alive, as Tim and Dick were both better Robins than Jason anyway and Jason's death, as you stated, represented that Batman's mission was no "game" and was life-and-death. Plus I liked Joker being able to taunt Bats about it; showcased just how deadly and dangerous he (and the other Bat-rogues) were and made Bruce think twice about involving people in his mission, since they could end up just like Jason.
And on another note, Winnick's story explanation for Jason's return and subsequent revamping of him as a "bad-ass" leather-jacketed ninja Punisher-knockoff were both examples of really, really bad writing. Pity Superboy Prime can't retcon-punch the effects of his initial retcon-punch and just erase them....

[brundlefly]

To each their own. You may be right about Winnick. but what about Bruce Jones and his work with Jason Todd on the Nightwing comic?

Jones' run and usage of Todd was pretty widely panned by NIGHTWING fans, as well.

[batturtle]

I like Tim Drake, the evolution of Dick graduating up to Nightwing, and think that Jason should have stayed very dead.
If his resurection had been written better, I might not have so much of a problem with it. But unfortunately the whole Jason returns story arc was fairly lame (I thought).

As a constant readed of the Bat family of comics, I am often curious of what would've happened if Jason hadn't have died. Was there a story line planned out? What would've happened if Jason would've been saved? I seem to recal that the 1-800 voting was fairly close in the kill / don't kill totals.

I Wonder if Jason would've evolved into a better, more liked character or if the goin' evil thing wouldah' happened anyways?

[Superboy Prime]

Agreed. He was more useful dead than alive, as Tim and Dick were both better Robins than Jason anyway and Jason's death, as you stated, represented that Batman's mission was no "game" and was life-and-death. Plus I liked Joker being able to taunt Bats about it; showcased just how deadly and dangerous he (and the other Bat-rogues) were and made Bruce think twice about involving people in his mission, since they could end up just like Jason.
And on another note, Winnick's story explanation for Jason's return and subsequent revamping of him as a "bad-ass" leather-jacketed ninja Punisher-knockoff were both examples of really, really bad writing. Pity Superboy Prime can't retcon-punch the effects of his initial retcon-punch and just erase them....

An awesome post, and I really couldnt agree more.

Jason's death did serve it's purpose. And IMO, Jason's death served it's point very well. In that Batman's part of the world is a very dangerous place to operate in. And that there can be consequences for every action and decision made. Nothing should be taken for granted. Like an above poster stated, Todd's death really did add alot to the Batman mythos in many ways. Not only as a crucial event in the Batman universe, but also as a reminder that not everyone can, or should come back from death. It was one of those constants I grew up with reading comics. And for me, I always felt it added a bit more realism to the Batman stories than if "A Death in the Family" had not occured. In closing, I really wouldnt have mind a better story detailing Jason Todd's return (since I really dont have a problem with Todd) to the land of the living, but ultimately he should have just remained as dead as the dodo.

[invader]

Agreed. He was more useful dead than alive, as Tim and Dick were both better Robins than Jason anyway and Jason's death, as you stated, represented that Batman's mission was no "game" and was life-and-death. Plus I liked Joker being able to taunt Bats about it; showcased just how deadly and dangerous he (and the other Bat-rogues) were and made Bruce think twice about involving people in his mission, since they could end up just like Jason.
And on another note, Winnick's story explanation for Jason's return and subsequent revamping of him as a "bad-ass" leather-jacketed ninja Punisher-knockoff were both examples of really, really bad writing. Pity Superboy Prime can't retcon-punch the effects of his initial retcon-punch and just erase them....
WEll It sure Fit todd's attitude killing is the only thimg todd can fall back to he was a thug anyway. Talia supported him so when shr went physco so did he. He should have another suit then the one in the under the hood arc. Wish his use from talia was kind like a winter soldier effect.

[Effect]

I don't think his killing is the only thing he can fall back on. It was vague if he killed that one guy as Robin right? He could have let him die which is what I think I remember hearing the whole thing was leaning toward. Wasn't the guy a rapist as well or something like that? So maybe bad for Robin to do but it isn't like it wasn't justified. That's the thing that makes him interesting in the same way Punisher is. Killing might not be the best way to go about it but it's kinda hard to say it isn't and wouldn't be justifed or even a good idea considering who is actually being killed here.

I would think even fans find it hard to believe sometimes that Joker is still alive after all he's done. You'd figure someone would have had enough and put him down. The character has kinda been written into a corner like that I think. Honestly if Batman were to finally off Joker do you think other heroes or Gotham citizens (criminal, cop, and civilian a like) would really be that upset and worried Batman had gone evil or would they say (logically I feel) "It's about damn time!!"?

[invader]

You do have a point but when you come back and people from batman's rogue embrace you especially anything ralted to ghul your a murderer Death is todd's way of justice.

[Chad]

If you read the issues following Batman 428 (including part four of A Death in the Family) there's very little reference to Jason's death. Even when Batman confronts the Joker he doesn't actually accuse him of murder, instead saying things such as "up until now I wasn't entirely sure you were responsible for what happened to Jason". I know that DC has an alternate version of Batman 428 in which Jason survived in its vaults, but it seems as if the next few issues of Batman (Detective didn't even acknowledge Jason's death until the Mudpack I believe) were written in such a way that regardless of what the outcome of the vote was, the stories themselves wouldn't have had to be adjusted too much (ie. maybe a panel here and there would have needed to be changed, and maybe an occassional reference to where Jason was recovering would be made but that would have been it).

However, instead of having a year's worth of ambiguous stories like this already in the can, Batman Year Three (which lead to the introduction of Tim Drake) came out a little over six months after Death in the Family, meaning that unless DC only planned their stories six months in advance, they must have had some idea about the direction they'd need to go in if the readers decided to let Jason live. I wonder if there's any interviews with Denny O Neil out there in which he's been asked outright what those ideas were.

I know that Anarky was created as the potential next Robin (either Alan Grant or Norm Breyfogle admitted this) so I don't know if he would have ever entered the picture and I think that once Jason returned he probably would've received the Neal Adams' designed suit that Tim got instead. I agree with Rylon that his personality would have been overhauled as well. If it worked so poorly for Todd that he was almost wiped out because of it, I can't imagine that DC wouldn't have rethought things.

[invader]

Well that's an immediate effect how would you view cataclysm with todd as robin. I mean there would have been a new robin even if todd did notdie. Anyway how old is Tim drake ?

[invader]

Everyone here wants todd at least the majority but if todd attitude was not changed after the crisis would you be more embracing

[brundlefly]

Everyone here wants todd at least the majority

Did you mean "wants Todd dead?" :D


but if todd attitude was not changed after the crisis would you be more embracing

Nah. He's still an also-ran after Dick and Tim and serves a better storyline purpose dead at the hands of the Joker than anything he could do alive as either Robin II or "Red Hood." Easier to dislike him when he became a snotty punk post-crisis, maybe, but even without the attitude problem, he's third-place behind the other Robins and better as an example of the dangers of the Bat-universe than as an actual character.

[invader]

yes thanks

[The Shadow]

I couldn't care less about Jason. But I think in death he represented that the DC world was a dangerous place, and it makes actually makes it easier to believe that characters fight and die, they aren't just wearing funny clothes and playing gaming. Bring Jason back is saying "No one ever dies, ever." If you die don't worry on a long enough time line everyone comes back to life (usually with a new power or skill). Jason's death added speical meaning to the Batman Mythos and now it is just another story

What an AWESOME post!

Bravo.

[The Shadow]

Winnick's story explanation for Jason's return and subsequent revamping of him as a "bad-ass" leather-jacketed ninja Punisher-knockoff were both examples of really, really bad writing. Pity Superboy Prime can't retcon-punch the effects of his initial retcon-punch and just erase them....

DING DING DING!!!

We have a winnah!

Well said.