Do you act "gay"?

[Boldido]

****DISCLAIMER FOR THE NEWER MEMBERS OF THE COMM BOARD AND FOR THOSE SMART ENOUGH TO RARELY READ MY POSTS****

I am no antigay in anyway and am a strong proponent for marraige and adoption rights for homosexuals.

That being said, something that always made me curious was why people acted gay? There are many words to describe what I'm talking about, most of which are not complimentary, however when people think of a stereotypical gay man, there are a number of things that come to mind. Lispy, lilty, nasally sounding voices, swishy feminine hand gestures, extremely dramatic and emotional, often to the point of hysterics or histrionics. Scott Thompson's character Buddy in the Kids in the Hall or the skinny short haired guy in Will and Grace are two characters that come to mind.

Before anyone says, not everyone who is gay acts that way, DON'T, I already know that. In fact, of all my gay friends only one acts that way. Another friend of mine had a boyfriend for a short period of time that was every gay stereotype.

My question is why. What about someone's sexual orientation would effect the way they talk or walk or act to such a great degree?

If you are gay, do you act that way? Do you have friends that do? Have you ever known someone who only acted that way after coming out? Why?

This is not intended to open a debate on gay marraige. If you want to talk about gay marraige, GO AWAY!!!!

Similarly, this is not meant to be a gay bashing thread in anyway. If you have a problem with homosexuality, GO AWAY!!! This thread is not for you. This thread is meant to discuss certain tendencies or traits and what you might think is behind them.

[BoosterBronze]

That's a damn good question Bol. I've often wondered that, but never had the guts to ask out of fear of being called a gay basher.

[Boldido]

That's a damn good question Bol. I've often wondered that, but never had the guts to ask out of fear of being called a gay basher.Me too. After seeing a couple of guys at Target today, however, I thought what the hell? Most people here know me well enough to know how the question is intended.

[Valmore]

There's generally a kernel of truth in every stereotype. Meaning that while the stereotype doesn't apply to all of one group, there's at least enough of it prevalent, or something that stands out, for why people see it that way.

Do all gay folks love Barbara Streisand and speak in bad falsetto voices like they were slightly kicked in the nads? Of course not. But there are some that do. And since it stands out, it becomes the stereotype.

Personally, I've never known any gay folks that acted the gay stereotype.

[Spike-X]

I'm wondering if it's partly due to the genetic component, in some fashion.

[Stellar]

My theory is, some people try too hard.
It's the same as with the dude who says 'Hey, I listen to Limp Bizkit zo from now on I'll wear my red baseball cap backwards, wear large shirts and maybe even grow a goatee. But most of all, I gotta talk about the Bizkit cuz peoples gots to know I listen to the Bizkit!'

People who try too hard to give others a certain impression of themselves.

That's my two cents.

[Chris Nowlin]

There's generally a kernel of truth in every stereotype. Meaning that while the stereotype doesn't apply to all of one group, there's at least enough of it prevalent, or something that stands out, for why people see it that way.

Do all gay folks love Barbara Streisand and speak in bad falsetto voices like they were slightly kicked in the nads? Of course not. But there are some that do. And since it stands out, it becomes the stereotype.

Personally, I've never known any gay folks that acted the gay stereotype.

My neighbor in the dorms freshman year fit every gay stereoptype you could in terms of how he dressed and talked. And he blasted Tina Turner all night long. You could hear it 3 floors up and I was next to him.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Here's another question - might the stereotypically gay behavior in question be more common depending on whether the gay individual is more a top or a bottom? I'm guessing maybe so, based on what I've seen (most of the gay folk I know that fit that stereotype are very much bottoms - my stepson, Ian, for example, identifies himself as "the girl in the relationship."), but this is admittedly a limited sample.

[JeffreyWKramer]

My theory is, some people try too hard.
It's the same as with the dude who says 'Hey, I listen to Limp Bizkit zo from now on I'll wear my red baseball cap backwards, wear large shirts and maybe even grow a goatee. But most of all, I gotta talk about the Bizkit cuz peoples gots to know I listen to the Bizkit!'


That guy should try real hard to get better taste.

[Valmore]

That guy should try real hard to get better taste.

It wasn't even cool to do that back when Limp Bizkit were actually popular. To do it now? I'm generally not violent, but sometimes negative reinforcement can be a valuable tool...

[BoosterBronze]

My personal theory as a straight man.

I knew a transexual woman once, and she always held her purse very tightly against her body like she was displaying it. I'd never seen an actual woman hold a purse in such a manner. It was very much like she was making sure we all saw it, and understood who she was and what she was.

Perhaps in some cases "acting gay" is an attempt by a homosexual to put very clearly and too the forefront who they are and what they are, so that there is never any confusion or misunderstanding.

Just a thought.

[Stellar]

The thing is, it's not just the Bizkit fans. Look at the little Britneys and Lindseys and fake ass fidies runnin' around.

[Grazzt]

While I don't act that way, one of my Dons at university was like that. You should have seen him in drag as Britney Spears.

[Chris Nowlin]

My theory is, some people try too hard.
It's the same as with the dude who says 'Hey, I listen to Limp Bizkit zo from now on I'll wear my red baseball cap backwards, wear large shirts and maybe even grow a goatee. But most of all, I gotta talk about the Bizkit cuz peoples gots to know I listen to the Bizkit!'

People who try too hard to give others a certain impression of themselves.

That's my two cents.


I wonder if that's simple. I fall into a LOT of "nerd/geek" stereotypes, and it's not because I'm trying. I just do like comic books, math, science fiction, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings. But the more I do, the more I fall into a stereotype.

And I enjoy filling my apartment with toys and posters and statues of comic-book like stuff. That may be me showing off my geekiness analgous to your Limp Bizkit fan, but I think I'm just being me.

I wonder if they're consciously trying to say: "I'm gay and proud", or just being themselves and there really is some more subtle connection between fashion sense and sexuality.

[Christopher O]

Here's another question - might the stereotypically gay behavior in question be more common depending on whether the gay individual is more a top or a bottom? I'm guessing maybe so, based on what I've seen (most of the gay folk I know that fit that stereotype are very much bottoms - my stepson, Ian, for example, identifies himself as "the girl in the relationship."), but this is admittedly a limited sample.
I actually think that's a valid point. As a gay man, I have observed that the more feminine guys tend to be the bottoms, which actually makes sense, if you think in terms of dom/sub. Afterall, that's the hetero model, and I think the two are certainly connected. That being said, I do know lots of guys who don't fit the stereotype who are bottoms--I happen to be one--but for the most part, I think this works well. Cool topic by the way. Also, as a fag, I excercise my authority to bless this thread. ;)

[JeffreyWKramer]

I actually think that's a valid point. As a gay man, I have observed that the more feminine guys tend to be the bottoms, which actually makes sense, if you think in terms of dom/sub.

I was indeed thinking of that. Naturally enough, given that I have a lot more first-hand experience with D/s dynamics than with gay ones.

You see a similar pattern there. Not all submissive males are particularly feminine in terms of behavior, but that's not unknown, and even some very masculine male subs have "forced feminization" sorts of fetishes and fantasies.

So, yeah, I wonder if some of this isn't a matter of the person taking on more stereotypically feminine characteristics partially in identification with the more stereotypically feminine role.

[Boldido]

I know for most coming out is a very emotional experience. I would not be surprised if some adopted the stereotypes as an affectation (kind of like Madonna's British accent) to say to society, "I'm gay and I'm not ashamed of it."

Many of us, however, grew up with kids that were called sissies or other nasty names because they showed a lot of the stereotypes from an early age. Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

[BoosterBronze]

Forgive my ignorance.

Top/Bottom? Does that mean what it seems to literally mean, or does it have a more figurative meaning?

[Haunt]

i have a couple stupid theories...



1. it's all related to estrogen levels in the body.


2. maybe these individuals identified more with their mother in their formative years; leading to the conditioning of this behavior.

and you don't have to be gay for either theory. i know people who talk with a lisp because of a speech impediment.

[BoosterBronze]

Many of us, however, grew up with kids that were called sissies or other nasty names because they showed a lot of the stereotypes from an early age. Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

I was in college before I ever even learned the "sissy" was a gay refrence. I thought it just meant a boy who couldn't throw a baseball well.

[Haunt]

Forgive my ignorance.

Top/Bottom? Does that mean what it seems to literally mean, or does it have a more figurative meaning?

think of it as Male/Female, instead. who submits and who dominates in the act of sex?

[Boldido]

I actually think that's a valid point. As a gay man, I have observed that the more feminine guys tend to be the bottoms, which actually makes sense, if you think in terms of dom/sub. Afterall, that's the hetero model, and I think the two are certainly connected. That being said, I do know lots of guys who don't fit the stereotype who are bottoms--I happen to be one--but for the most part, I think this works well. Cool topic by the way. Also, as a fag, I excercise my authority to bless this thread. ;)Thanks, I'm glad people are taking it in the spirit in which it was intended. So does this count as the Gay Housekeeping Seal of Approval?

[Christopher O]

I was indeed thinking of that. Naturally enough, given that I have a lot more first-hand experience with D/s dynamics than with gay ones.

You see a similar pattern there. Not all submissive males are particularly feminine in terms of behavior, but that's not unknown, and even some very masculine male subs have "forced feminization" sorts of fetishes.

So, yeah, I wonder if some of this isn't a matter of the person taking on more stereotypically feminine characteristics partially in identification with the more stereotypically feminine role.
I think you're on to something, Jeffrey, especially when you take into consideration other cultures where sexuality is defined by the traditional dom/sub model, where being the bottom is considered "gay" or "unmanly" and being the top is perfectly ok.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Forgive my ignorance.

Top/Bottom? Does that mean what it seems to literally mean, or does it have a more figurative meaning?

In D/s it tends to refer to Dominant/submissive. In gay relationships, it may reflect that, or simply pitcher/catcher (the one inserting/the one receiving during sex).

Of course, some gay couples share/switch those roles, and some gay folk may take different roles at different times in their lives, or depending on who they are with, or identify with both roles equally.

[Matt Algren]

Perhaps in some cases "acting gay" is an attempt by a homosexual to put very clearly and too the forefront who they are and what they are, so that there is never any confusion or misunderstanding.

Just a thought.I tend to think you're right, but it could be deeper and more complex than that.

This is from the Onion, but it does have a ring of truth, especially at the end.

Newly Out Gay Man Overdoing It (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27704/print/)

October 9, 2002 | Issue 38•37

PENSACOLA, FL—Calling his flamboyant air and effeminate mannerisms "a bit forced," friends of recently out-of-the-closet homosexual Mark Glynn, 23, say he's overdoing it.

"When Mark first told us he was gay, everybody was totally cool with it," longtime friend Rich Eddy said. "We figured he'd basically be the same old Mark, except he'd be dating guys. Boy, were we wrong."

Though Glynn's friends expected him to become comfortable and open with his sexuality, they did not expect him to go to such great lengths to proclaim his preference for men at every conceivable turn.

"We just figured he'd start saying stuff to us at bars like, 'Check out that cute guy's butt,'" Eddy said. "But he takes pains to telegraph his gayness 24 hours a day. Last night, a bunch of us were talking about what's going on with Bush and Iraq, when, out of nowhere, he says, 'You know what Bush needs? A good ass-fucking. That'd relax him.' It's like, 'Okay, Mark, we get it already—you're gay.'"

Continued Eddy: "It's like he's scared that if he doesn't wear hot pants and say 'You go, girl!' a lot, somebody might think he's straight."

[Boldido]

Forgive my ignorance.

Top/Bottom? Does that mean what it seems to literally mean, or does it have a more figurative meaning?Before I was comfortable with homosexuality I used to ask my friend to use baseball metaphors. It was the eighties and he was patient with the straight guy who just found out his best friend was gay.

Top--pitcher

Bottom -- catcher

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think you're on to something, Jeffrey, especially when you take into consideration other cultures where sexuality is defined by the traditional dom/sub model, where being the bottom is considered "gay" or "unmanly" and being the top is perfectly ok.

Apparently, a lot of the "down low" guys that don't consider themselves gay or bi are mostly pitchers/tops, and look down on the bottoms. I've heard also in some Latino cultures, being the top isn't considered a big deal at all, or at least less so compared to being the bottom.

[Christopher O]

Thanks, I'm glad people are taking it in the spirit in which it was intended. So does this count as the Gay Housekeeping Seal of Approval?
Well, you have my seal of approval, but I'm not too sensitive about the subject and in fact, am baffled that studies concerning this particular topic aren't more readily available. It's so interesting and actually quite creepy. Seriously, I turn into to my mother when I have a boyfriend. I may take the traditionally submissive role in sex, but I'm the domineering, overbearing partner who actually controls most situations in and out of the bedroom, like my mom. Freaky.

[Boldido]

Well, you have my seal of approval, but I'm not too sensitive about the subject and in fact, am baffled that studies concerning this particular topic aren't more readily available. It's so interesting and actually quite creepy. Seriously, I turn into to my mother when I have a boyfriend. I may take the traditionally submissive role in sex, but I'm the domineering, overbearing partner who actually controls most situations in and out of the bedroom, like my mom. Freaky.
Okay, I'm not freaked out that you are gay, but I have to confess that I am totally weirded out by the fact that you know your mom takes control of the situtation IN and out of the bedroom. Ewww.

[Chris Nowlin]

I was in college before I ever even learned the "sissy" was a gay refrence. I thought it just meant a boy who couldn't throw a baseball well.


Or who always lost to girls in arm wrestling. *sob* To this day, girls who are half my weight...

Anyways, I don't know if it's entirely gay, I could be legitimately called a "sissy", but I'm not homosexual.

[StoneGold]

http://www.richardsimmons.com/images/aboutimg.jpg

[Stellar]

Strange, I always thought homosexuals didn't try to compare theirselves to hetero couples by having a 'girl' and 'guy' position in the relationship.

[Christopher O]

Apparently, a lot of the "down low" guys that don't consider themselves gay or bi are mostly pitchers/tops, and look down on the bottoms. I've heard also in some Latino cultures, being the top isn't considered a big deal at all, or at least less so compared to being the bottom.
I was actually referring to those Latino cultures too, and the whole notion is bizarre, but it's not uncommon at all for the bottom to be considered, well the lowest "stage" I guess. For the first few years that I was out, I was uncomfortable with the notion of being a bottom. Part of that was adjusting to the discomfort of such an alien behavior and the rest was because it really seemed, well, gayer. Not only was I a fan of the penis, like a woman, but I was also a fan of having one inside me, like a woman. I guess on some level it's like further removal from masculinity. Of course, I'm absolutely comfortable with being a bottom these days and honestly have trouble imagining how anyone could NOT like being a bottom--even straight guys. Seriously, prostate stimulation is heaven.

[Gilda Dent]

Well, you have my seal of approval, but I'm not too sensitive about the subject and in fact, am baffled that studies concerning this particular topic aren't more readily available. It's so interesting and actually quite creepy. Seriously, I turn into to my mother when I have a boyfriend. I may take the traditionally submissive role in sex, but I'm the domineering, overbearing partner who actually controls most situations in and out of the bedroom, like my mom. Freaky.

Nah, not that unusual actually. In BDSM terms, you'd be a "dominant bottom", a catcher who calls the pitches, so to speak.

[Phrozen]

My theory is that the more flamboyant became the stereotype because it was so different from normal society while the less flamboyant gays talked, acted, and dressed pretty much like everybody else.

[Christopher O]

Okay, I'm not freaked out that you are gay, but I have to confess that I am totally weirded out by the fact that you know your mom takes control of the situtation IN and out of the bedroom. Ewww.
Ha! My mom and I are actually pretty open about that sort of thing--minus the graphic detail--but she wouldn't have to tell me, because I know. I'm seriously just like her in almost every way, except in terms of anatomy. I even favor her tremendously. She calls me her clone.

[Stellar]

Why does there have to be a dominant and 'catching' partner? I thought you people had turns at it.

[Paul McEnery]

I've noticed some other things.

Like some gay mannerisms are shared with some American black women. Why? Beats me. I blame disco.

And then there's some hand movements and body language (especially with head orientation and gaze) that are simply the way many women move, some of which I've picked up and do from time to time because I've got a lot of women friends (and because they directly elicit a more emotionally open response from everyone except very, very straight guys who are freaked out by the mixed message of some fat, hairy English straight guy acting like a chick who's interest in them -- and I can't say I blame them; only happens if I'm on a tear, though).

And also, there's black people from the New Orleans area who have mannerisms that us white Nortenos would consider effeminate, but aren't gay at all. Is this some sort of African thing? Beats me.

Of course, then there's my flouncy black gay friend from Gainesville who's always waving his hands around, does all the intimacy body language, has a verrrry languid yet precise Southern articulation, and hugs everyone like they're his best friend in the world.

Like that's not inevitable.

[Stellar]

What the hell are you talking about? Please elaborate on your African-American example.

[Paul McEnery]

What the hell are you talking about? Please elaborate on your African-American example.
Okay, the black American woman thing: stressing certain words, certain hand gestures, even the hand on hip head bob, if you know what I mean. And phrases like "go, girl".

The Now Orleans thing: just having a much less macho stride, or movement. Gentle and elegant, basically, if not hesitant. Also a very light voice and inflection.

[Gilda Dent]

Many transwomen overcompensate a lot at first for a variety of reasons. It's at least partly a product of wanting to prove their gender both to others and to themselves, partly inexperience coupled with a belief that more feminine is more convincingly female, and part of the exploration process involved in figuring out what it means to be a woman. Most pull back as they relax into the role, both as a result of realizing that being female doesn't mean being ultra-feminine, and because they tend to realize that it's actually counterproductive to blending and functioning well.

When I was male, I exhibited a lot of the flamer characteristics, according to my brother as young as eight or nine. It was in part a choice in that I could have, and sometimes did, choose to be more traditionally masculine, but doing that felt like I was playing a role that didn't suit me. The feminine expression was a choice in that way, but it wasn't an affectation so much as a choice to just be the person I was most comfortable being.

Ironically, once I was fully transitioned, I ended up moving away from the extreme end, becoming a bit less feminine, though I'm still mostly a girly girl, in part because the people at the extreme end tend to be the drag queens or at least look like drag queens. I do know a few transwomen who do go way over the top on purpose. One six foot seven woman I know wears heels every day. She figures that she's going to draw attention anyway, so she might as well be looking fine while she does.

[Winslow]

Okay, the black American woman thing: stressing certain words, certain hand gestures, even the hand on hip head bob, if you know what I mean. And phrases like "go, girl".

The Now Orleans thing: just having a much less macho stride, or movement. Gentle and elegant, basically, if not hesitant. Also a very light voice and inflection.

Y'know, I never noticed that until you brought it up.

Weird.

[Gilda Dent]

Of course, I'm absolutely comfortable with being a bottom these days and honestly have trouble imagining how anyone could NOT like being a bottom--even straight guys. Seriously, prostate stimulation is heaven.

Other than being a fan of the penis, I am 100% on board with this.

[Stellar]

Y'know, I never noticed that until you brought it up.

Weird.

Neither did I. Good lookin' out, son.

[Gilda Dent]

Why does there have to be a dominant and 'catching' partner? I thought you people had turns at it.

There doesn't have to be. There are switches. Some people are just more comfortable in one role than in another.

[Paul McEnery]

Neither did I. Good lookin' out, son.
Well, I do live in a black neighbourhood in San Francisco.

[Gilda Dent]

I was actually referring to those Latino cultures too, and the whole notion is bizarre, but it's not uncommon at all for the bottom to be considered, well the lowest "stage" I guess. For the first few years that I was out, I was uncomfortable with the notion of being a bottom. Part of that was adjusting to the discomfort of such an alien behavior and the rest was because it really seemed, well, gayer.

I think the notion that one is more gay than the other is silly, but it would seem logical to me that if you're going to go down that path, it would work the other way. I remember an episode of The John Larroquette show that dealt with this. John's a recovering alcoholic who discovers a picture of himself from a blackout period having sex with another man. He shows it to a friend of his and asks if the men in the picture must be gay. The reply is (paraphrased): "Well, that guy might just be in prison, but that one's definitely gay."

[i_mmmchocolate]

My dad. The Gay Years.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/lena212/pa.jpg

Kidding.

Actually, the Army Years.

We always tease him about these photos from back in the day.

[Haunt]

Okay, the black American woman thing: stressing certain words, certain hand gestures, even the hand on hip head bob, if you know what I mean. And phrases like "go, girl".

The Now Orleans thing: just having a much less macho stride, or movement. Gentle and elegant, basically, if not hesitant. Also a very light voice and inflection.


that's exclusive to New Orleans. you can get away with being frutier there. i know because several of my straight uncles are like that. one of them went at length about how him getting pedicures doesn't make him effeminate. in general, N'awlins residents tend to be more flamboyant; like the city itself.

Okay, the black American woman thing: stressing certain words, certain hand gestures, even the hand on hip head bob, if you know what I mean. And phrases like "go, girl".

my guess is that homosexuals adopted the mannerisms from black women. that's not unusual when you consider how many straight white kids act like wannabe thugs. and who wouldn't want to be like a black woman? they are cool and expressive.

[Drew Van T.]

Okay, the black American woman thing: stressing certain words, certain hand gestures, even the hand on hip head bob, if you know what I mean. And phrases like "go, girl".

The Now Orleans thing: just having a much less macho stride, or movement. Gentle and elegant, basically, if not hesitant. Also a very light voice and inflection.

I find that black women in general have a more masculine aura ("aura" being a more general definition of gender than the mannerisms you're referring to), in the same way that Asian men tend to have a more feminine aura than men of other races.

I think that the theory about gay men overcompensating - to the extent that it can be defended - also applies to black women in some ways. Hence the similarity.

[Drew Van T.]

Actually, the Army Years.

You mean the "don't ask, don't tell" years.

[Ontir]

Perhaps in some cases "acting gay" is an attempt by a homosexual to put very clearly and too the forefront who they are and what they are, so that there is never any confusion or misunderstanding.

Just a thought.

There's something to that. When I first came out, I bought certain clothes, because I thought they were more gay than others. Eventually, I went back to dressing like Charlie Brown. At that time, I was also going to gay clubs almost every night of the week, drag show, or not. As time passed, I developed a life and friends outside of bars, and I in-frequented them.

In some cases, people have experienced a great deal of hatred and emotional, if not physical abuse, and a certain demeanor is also a way to put people off. If you mind, you're not coming near. If you don't care, it doesn't bother you, and you can be let close.

[howyadoin]

Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?Pretty much every guy I've ever known who was a bit girlish eventually came out.

Which kinda makes sense - if you're a straight guy, you don't have any purpose for acting feminine.

[Gilda Dent]

Many of us, however, grew up with kids that were called sissies or other nasty names because they showed a lot of the stereotypes from an early age. Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

*raises hand*

That was a frequent nickname in school from pretty early on. This is somewhat unusual for transsexuals, though, as most report strong feelings of being female from early childhood, but few exhibit stereotypically feminine behavior until their teens at earliest, and more often as adults in their late 20's and early 30's.

There is some evidence that I've read that a majority of stereotypically feminine boys do grow up to be gay.

[Winslow]

Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

A couple guys I know from college "came out of the closet."

When they did, I wasn't really surprised or shocked.

[Christopher O]

I think the notion that one is more gay than the other is silly, but it would seem logical to me that if you're going to go down that path, it would work the other way. I remember an episode of The John Larroquette show that dealt with this. John's a recovering alcoholic who discovers a picture of himself from a blackout period having sex with another man. He shows it to a friend of his and asks if the men in the picture must be gay. The reply is (paraphrased): "Well, that guy might just be in prison, but that one's definitely gay."
I think it's silly too, now, but I'm also much more comfortable with myself. I also think it's just part of the coming out process for some--like a stage. For instance, a closeted homosexual may go from straight to curious to bi/curious to bi to gay/top to gay/bottom. Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that he was ever really anything but a bottom, but it might just be part of his process. Sexuality is such a strange thing. It's interesting to see how time and geography influence social perception of sexuality.

[JeffreyWKramer]

There is some evidence that I've read that a majority of stereotypically feminine boys do grow up to be gay.

Ian sure did.

[twilight]

Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

A guy I knew in primary and high school called Jeremy.

I came to the primary school in year 5 and everybody(students,teachers and parents alike) had already pegged him as gay.

Needless to say he was.

[bfrank]

my guess is that homosexuals adopted the mannerisms from black women. that's not unusual when you consider how many straight white kids act like wannabe thugs. and who wouldn't want to be like a black woman? they are cool and expressive.
and from 'twan and that other cat from "in living color".....

Folks from Patti LaBelle and Tina Turner to Janet Jackson and Mary J Blige have had huge gay followings for years...it makes sense that they would adopt their mannerisims........

[Camron Amaya]

Becuz natrually liking men is for females. And in that aspect they are femenine. People will argue against it but it's true. When you asked why do you act gay you were really asking why do you act femenine.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Becuz natrually liking men is for females. And in that aspect they are femenine. People will argue against it but it's true. When you asked why do you act gay you were really asking why do you act femenine.

Except that only some gay men do that.

Thanks for playing, though. Have a copy of the home version of the game.

[Puma]

I used to hang out with a bunch of gay men when I lived in Seattle. Usually, the only seriously flaming guys were the same ones who entered the drag queen contests and were very in your face with their sexuality. The majority, you couldn't tell were gay unless you were at a party.

MY favorite memory is at a party where a bunch of folks were playing poker while everyone else was dancing. There was a man, big man, looked like the meanest damn biker you ever saw, when I sat down and was introduced he lifted a limp hand and lisped the sweetest, highest, "so glad you could make hon" I've ever heard.

[Corrina]

In the Roman culture, gay sex had a cultural element to it.

In other words, the ones at the top of Roman society were considered just fine if they were the pitchers. Being the catcher/bottom, especially if the other person was of lower rank, was extremely frowned on.

I think there's an element of that in some modern American sub-cultures.

[i_mmmchocolate]

Maybe it's just me, I guess, but the only gay men that I'm good friends with are pretty damn butch. You'd never guess they were gay at all.

AT ALL.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Maybe it's just me, I guess, but the only gay men that I'm good friends with are pretty damn butch. You'd never guess they were gay at all.

AT ALL.

All those soccer guys you admire?

[i_mmmchocolate]

All those soccer guys you admire?
BA-ZING! You are officially BLACK-LISTED, KRAMER!

Nope. Old college friends!

[StoneGold]

Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive in the joint.

[tangentman]

Not only was I a fan of the penis, like a woman, but I was also a fan of having one inside me, like a woman. I guess on some level it's like further removal from masculinity. Of course, I'm absolutely comfortable with being a bottom these days and honestly have trouble imagining how anyone could NOT like being a bottom--even straight guys. Seriously, prostate stimulation is heaven.

Woo-hoo, prostate massage! My first boyfriend put it another way--"You're not a real man until you've had another man's dick in your ass!"

Ironically, I was the "top" in that relationship.

If you guys want an inversion of the "effeminate = bottom" rule, consider this: the best guys I've ever topped were hardcore military men. A former Marine, a Master Sergeant in the Army. DAMN, those guys worked their stuff! The second fellow helped me put a few Friday nights to long and quality use!

Now, about "acting gay"--I've noticed that guys who fit the stereotype are mostly likely entrenched in the gay subculture. Compare guys who hit the bars every night (as pointed out by Ontir) with guys who lead quieter lives. You'll probably see more of the "queenier" behavior among the regular club denizens. Clubs are relatively safer for gay men (notice the "relatively") than the average setting in the "straight world".

As for "top/bottom"--not all gay men care for being pigeon-holed into that dichotomy. Since I'm not trying to render the female gender obsolete, I'm also not interested in imitating a hetero relationship model. ;) Also, just because a man is gay, it doesn't always follow that he's into anal sex. I've personally known many gay men who have little use for it.

[howyadoin]

As for "top/bottom"--not all gay men care for being pigeon-holed into that dichotomy.You have sex with pigeons?

Gross.

[Michael P]

I sing show tunes. Like, a lot.

[tangentman]

The pigeons never complain.

[howyadoin]

The pigeons never complain.Hah. That would explain why they sound the way they do.

[tangentman]

I have pigeon-loving skillz.


Okay.


Implementing suicide measures for using "skillz" in a sentence.


EDIT: I bet the pigeons looooove that shaved head!

[JeffreyWKramer]

Hah. That would explain why they sound the way they do.

And why they crap all over everything.

[tangentman]

I don't think they have Cagill exercises for pigeon rectums.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I don't think they have Cagill exercises for pigeon rectums.

Kegel.

This is perhaps the strangest tangent in CBR history.

[howyadoin]

Kegel.

This is perhaps the strangest tangent in CBR history.I think it might be several tangents in one.

Fuckin' pigeons.

[tangentman]

Kegel.

Minus the "r", I guess I had Frenzy on my mind. Look at me, inserting that comic book reference!

Does that make me a "Nerd Top"?

This is perhaps the strangest tangent in CBR history.

Blame the bald man.

[howyadoin]

Minus the "r", I guess I had Frenzy on my mind. Look at me, inserting that comic book reference!

Does that make me a "Nerd Top"?Could be worse. You could be Carrot Top.

[Paul McEnery]

There is some evidence that I've read that a majority of stereotypically feminine boys do grow up to be gay.
Which is total shit.

Stereotypically feminine according to which culture?

What is feminine? What is masculine?

Is stupid aggression feminine? In my experience, yes.

Is gentle affection masculine? In my experience, yes.

And never mind the issue of hairiness.

Come on.

[Ontir]

A guy I knew in primary and high school called Jeremy.

Now we enter into the realm of what my friends and I have dubbed, the Doomed Name List. Eric, Geoffrey,Jared, Jeremy, Justin, Lance (Especially Lance! I've never met a straight Lance, and Armstrong and Heriksen are the only ones I've never seen.) and Seth, to name but a few, are names that occur often in gay men. The joke is that their parents looked at their newborn son and said, "This one's gonna..." and gave him a "gay" name.

Sorry, Paul. While I appreciate where you're coming from, Gilda's right. There have been studies, in which children of one gender, who demonstrated traits commonly considered to be of the other, were tracked over a number of years, and in almost every case, these kids came out in their teens. It's a recent study, which I seem to remember seeing on 20/20. It was interesting to see the parents. All of them knew what the study was, though their kids didn't. As time passed, some accepted what was happening, and really helped their kids deal with their budding sexuality, while others railed against it - to no avail.

[twilight]

Now we enter into the realm of what my friends and I have dubbed, the Doomed Name List. Eric, Geoffrey,Jared, Jeremy, Justin, Lance (Especially Lance! I've never met a straight Lance, and Armstrong and Heriksen are the only ones I've never seen.) and Seth, to name but a few, are names that occur often in gay men.

One of my best friends is a gay Jarryd.

The list knows all and sees all!

[Spike-X]

One of my best friends is a gay Jarryd.


Well shit, with that spelling he didn't have much chance, did he?

[twilight]

Well shit, with that spelling he didn't have much chance, did he?

Y is kinda a gay letter in general.

[Spike-X]

Y is kinda a gay letter in general.
So that's why Yorick isn't taking advantage of his Last Man On Earth status!

(I've only read the first four volumes so far, so if this has changed by now, please don't spoil)

[Ontir]

His parents must've looked into the cradle and seen the "DSL!"

[Spike-X]

His parents must've looked into the cradle and seen the "DSL!"
The what now?

[Tom]

I'm late to the game, but my take on it has always been there are effeminate gay men for the same reasons there are masculine lesbians. At some point in their development, unconsciously, they began adopting the mannerisms of the opposite sex because they were picking up on the socialization norms for that sex. In other words, women get men and they do so by acting like women. Little girls are trained and socialized to know how to do this. Little gay boys, whether they know it or not, also want men and learn to pick up feminine traits because that's what society told them they had to do in order to get a man.

[Ontir]

The what now?

The last letter stands for "Lips," and the first letter is the name of a tricky president!

[Spike-X]

The last letter stands for "Lips," and the first letter is the name of a tricky president!
Ah. Gotcha.

[Wesley Dodds]

What'll we do when we finally run out of straight-sounding names for boys!?

I guess we'll have to grow the fuck up.

[Valmore]

Which is total shit.

Stereotypically feminine according to which culture?

What is feminine? What is masculine?

Is stupid aggression feminine? In my experience, yes.

Is gentle affection masculine? In my experience, yes.

And never mind the issue of hairiness.

Come on.

Well, we are a rather ethnocentric culture. Hence, I'd imagine the evidence Gilda was talking about was probably in an American group, or at least that's what I'm assuming. I could be wrong.

And, in general, America does still have fairly clearly defined stereotypical "gender roles" - boys who play with Matchbox Cars are masculine; boys who play with Barbies aren't. Stuff like that.

But that's why it's a stereotype, even if it gets reinforced.

Heck, I played with Barbies with my younger sisters on rainy days, and then they'd play with my Star Wars figures with me. And we're all straight.

[Novaya Havoc]

My theory is, some people try too hard.
It's the same as with the dude who says 'Hey, I listen to Limp Bizkit zo from now on I'll wear my red baseball cap backwards, wear large shirts and maybe even grow a goatee. But most of all, I gotta talk about the Bizkit cuz peoples gots to know I listen to the Bizkit!'

People who try too hard to give others a certain impression of themselves.

That's my two cents.

Nah, that's just not true. I've always had a "gay" voice, and it bugs me to no end. And trust me, when I get drunk or emotional, I can get very, very dramatic.

So I have no idea why I have those gay mannerisms. I'm no screaming queen, and my gestures are very relaxed, but I have "the voice." I swear it has to be something genetic.

[Novaya Havoc]

I know for most coming out is a very emotional experience. I would not be surprised if some adopted the stereotypes as an affectation (kind of like Madonna's British accent) to say to society, "I'm gay and I'm not ashamed of it."

Many of us, however, grew up with kids that were called sissies or other nasty names because they showed a lot of the stereotypes from an early age. Does anyone know a kid that was a "sissy" that grew up to be gay and continue to exhibit the stereotypes?

On your first point:
From my perspectice, this is about social development, not sexuality. All of the screaming queens I know had a difficult time growing up and coming out -- they do overcompensate. But, for me, it's more of a mix of how their parents reacted to their kids' sexuality -- about their social context. That's the reason to rebel against society -- parents.

On the second:
Yeah, I do. A lot of gay people exhibited "sissy" stereotypes. When you talk about sexuality, you're really talking about gender and gender-roles. The logic goes: if a boy plays with Barbies, then he is a "sissy," and worse: gay. If you just say "So fucking what? My kid plays with Barbies!" the dynamic of the relationship changes.
So when you're talking about "sterotypes," you're talking about gender. When I was a kid, I had a Little Mermaid that I took in the bath, and when I was 13, I had an Ally McBeal picture collection. Now I queen out when I talk about Dazzler.

... But I'll still kick your ass, and make everyone a round of My Tais afterward.

Unfortunately for many straight guys (and gals, to a lesser extent), their own upbringing and social context dictates that crossing gender roles is just wrong, wrong, wrong. You see this in the way (some) women react to being called "feminist." You see it in the way products are marketed between the sexes. You see this in the way straight guys act around their guy friends, compared to their girl friends.

So when you bleed into this area, the stereotype just crosses over into the big debate of gender -> sexuality. And it shouldn't be oversimplified.

[Novaya Havoc]

Except that only some gay men do that.

Thanks for playing, though. Have a copy of the home version of the game.

No, there's a lot of truth to what he said. There's a reason that this subject is only limited to stereotypical (read: feminine) behavior in gay men, but does not discuss stereotypical (read: masculine or "butch") behavior in lesbians.

It's a gender bias. And there are documented cases of straight men and women who have been attacked -- out of homophobia -- because of appearances that cross strict gender roles. You "peg" someone as gay due to the way they follow gender; not because you saw them in bed with someone of the same sex.

It's true that some gays and lesbians don't exhibit this crossing of the gender roles. Then again, there are straight men and women that do.

The discussion isn't about sexuality so much as gender, and why gay men (and lesbians, which have been left out of this dynamic) seemingly cross them so often.

[Boldido]

No, there's a lot of truth to what he said. There's a reason that this subject is only limited to stereotypical (read: feminine) behavior in gay men, but does not discuss stereotypical (read: masculine or "butch") behavior in lesbians.

It's a gender bias. And there are documented cases of straight men and women who have been attacked -- out of homophobia -- because of appearances that cross strict gender roles. You "peg" someone as gay due to the way they follow gender; not because you saw them in bed with someone of the same sex.

It's true that some gays and lesbians don't exhibit this crossing of the gender roles. Then again, there are straight men and women that do.

The discussion isn't about sexuality so much as gender, and why gay men (and lesbians, which have been left out of this dynamic) seemingly cross them so often.
I actually played with the idea of including really butch lesbians too, but to be honest, the number of really butch lesbians I have seen is a very small fraction of the amount of screaming queens I have seen. Part of that may be also due to how a stereotype is presented in popular culture. Flamboyantly gay men have been a common staple of comedy for a very long time, much more so than butch lesbians which leads to another questions. Are there just as many butch lesbians as there are screaming queens?

[thespianphryne]

Let's see now...I have a lot of what might be called effete behaviour. The love of languidness, airy hand gestures, drawled vowels, the fussy attention to clothes even when I am being scruffy, the contrapposto posture. If I were a guy I'm sure I would have been ragged to holy hell about it growing up. But as I'm not, most people don't really notice. I alternate, depending on some yet to be determined cycle, between my boyish phases and my girlish phases. And the curious thing is sometimes when I'm in my boy phase and I play full drag dress up - suit, waistcoat, tie what not - I notice that more men flirt with me than when I'm in my girl phase and am playing full drag dress up. So what's up with that?

[Michael P]

Let's see now...I have a lot of what might be called effete behaviour. The love of languidness, airy hand gestures, drawled vowels, the fussy attention to clothes even when I am being scruffy, the contrapposto posture. If I were a guy I'm sure I would have been ragged to holy hell about it growing up. But as I'm not, most people don't really notice. I alternate, depending on some yet to be determined cycle, between my boyish phases and my girlish phases. And the curious thing is sometimes when I'm in my boy phase and I play full drag dress up - suit, waistcoat, tie what not - I notice that more men flirt with me than when I'm in my girl phase and am playing full drag dress up. So what's up with that?
Theory: Guys seeing a woman dress like a man subconsciously interpret this as the woman being willing, perhaps even eager, to dominate them in the bedroom. And a *lot* of guys get off on that.

[Doug Strange]

I actually played with the idea of including really butch lesbians too, but to be honest, the number of really butch lesbians I have seen is a very small fraction of the amount of screaming queens I have seen. Part of that may be also due to how a stereotype is presented in popular culture. Flamboyantly gay men have been a common staple of comedy for a very long time, much more so than butch lesbians which leads to another questions. Are there just as many butch lesbians as there are screaming queens?I'd imagine so. You've probably seen more than you realize. It's just that flamboyance naturally sticks out more than the 'strong, silent' type does.

I have, for some reason, an unusually well-atuned gaydar for these types of women (well, and in general, I suppose) and see them all the time, mostly in marriages with men.

[Xero Kaiser]

I'm not gay, but I've had more than a few people who thought that I was. So apparently I am, somehow, acting gay. I'm just too lazy to pinpoint how

[Justin Davis]

I'm late to the game, but my take on it has always been there are effeminate gay men for the same reasons there are masculine lesbians. At some point in their development, unconsciously, they began adopting the mannerisms of the opposite sex because they were picking up on the socialization norms for that sex. In other words, women get men and they do so by acting like women. Little girls are trained and socialized to know how to do this. Little gay boys, whether they know it or not, also want men and learn to pick up feminine traits because that's what society told them they had to do in order to get a man.

This seems like one of the best explanations I've read so far. However, there are so many traits that truly flaming gay men have that are more theirs than any woman I've known. The gay voice for one. David Cross does a whole bit on the gay voice. Here's a podcast I found that has the whole bit. It also has an interview with men during a gay pride march in San Francisco where the host asks them about the gay voice.

I know an older guy (he's probably in his late 50s) at work who has a very gay voice, but also talks about his wife and daughter. It's the only time I've come across a straight guy with such a strong gay voice, and I highly doubt he's completely straight. Like Cross says, not all gay men have the gay voice, but only gay men have the gay voice.

[Justin Davis]

My personal theory as a straight man.

I knew a transexual woman once, and she always held her purse very tightly against her body like she was displaying it. I'd never seen an actual woman hold a purse in such a manner. It was very much like she was making sure we all saw it, and understood who she was and what she was.

She might also still be insecure about how she is. Your description reminded me of how some girls who blossom early or boys who get aroused in school will cover themselves with a book or something else to block themselves from others' view.

[Paul McEnery]

I actually played with the idea of including really butch lesbians too, but to be honest, the number of really butch lesbians I have seen is a very small fraction of the amount of screaming queens I have seen. Part of that may be also due to how a stereotype is presented in popular culture. Flamboyantly gay men have been a common staple of comedy for a very long time, much more so than butch lesbians which leads to another questions. Are there just as many butch lesbians as there are screaming queens?
This is one of the things that bothers me. There's plenty of butch women around, and yet that's no indication of sexual orientation. And since that's what I'm attracted to, being a hyperemotional male, it takes a bit of detective work to see if I'd be barking up the wrong tree.

Of the Holmes variety, of course; not the sitting outside their house going through a pack and a half of smokes every night for a week. :D

[K'Nort]

This is one of the things that bothers me. There's plenty of butch women around, and yet that's no indication of sexual orientation. And since that's what I'm attracted to, being a hyperemotional male, it takes a bit of detective work to see if I'd be barking up the wrong tree.

I've been curious about this. Why are hyperemotional men attracted to butch women? It seems like a contradiction or a waste or something. At least on the surface. She's less likely than the average woman to appreciate his sensitivity and he's less likely than the average man to appreciate her practicality. But it happens all the time.

[Camron Amaya]

Except that only some gay men do that.

Thanks for playing, though. Have a copy of the home version of the game.

How does that disprove the point that those ones who do act like that are acting femenine?

I never said all gay men act like that you assumed that.

All women aren't femenine either.

Yea.

ALSO I said "in THAT aspect", they're femenine.

It's stupid to deny the obvious that you can see in the majority of examples. You can deny and blab all you want and come up wit little net zingers, I could give a fuck. :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

How does that disprove the point that those ones who do act like that are acting femenine?

I never said all gay men act like that you assumed that.

All women aren't femenine either.

Yea.

ALSO I said "in THAT aspect", they're femenine.

It's stupid to deny the obvious that you can see in the majority of examples. You can deny and blab all you want and come up wit little net zingers, I could give a fuck. :D

Your premise is that gay men act feminine because they want to attract guys. If that was the reason, then one would expect all gay men to act femine, since they all want to be with men. But, they don't. So, it's clearly *not* that it's just about attracting men.

I don't see what's so hard about this one.

[Novaya Havoc]

I actually played with the idea of including really butch lesbians too, but to be honest, the number of really butch lesbians I have seen is a very small fraction of the amount of screaming queens I have seen. Part of that may be also due to how a stereotype is presented in popular culture. Flamboyantly gay men have been a common staple of comedy for a very long time, much more so than butch lesbians which leads to another questions. Are there just as many butch lesbians as there are screaming queens?

From a feminist point of view, it would be that women's sexuality has been largely obfuscated throughout history. Gay men were seen as deviant for centuries in Western Europe and America, but lesbian women were not regarded as a "threat" as the concept of a woman's sexuality was disregarded until the 20th century. Several women had "Boston Marriages," and the males could care less.

For centuries, the common belief was that women could not experience sexual pleasure without the penis. So lesbianism was never considered legitimate.

Same concept. Women with short hair and sharp features are not always considered "lesbian," but instead mannish or "homely." Girls playing with boy toys is not a red flag like a boy with a tea set is. You probably see a lot of women crossing gender roles, but it doesn't raise an eyebrow because of the two-tiered system (and concept) of gender. A drag king would not evoke the same reaction as a drag queen, for example.

It all comes back to gender roles and gender socialization.

[thespianphryne]

I actually played with the idea of including really butch lesbians too, but to be honest, the number of really butch lesbians I have seen is a very small fraction of the amount of screaming queens I have seen. Part of that may be also due to how a stereotype is presented in popular culture. Flamboyantly gay men have been a common staple of comedy for a very long time, much more so than butch lesbians which leads to another questions. Are there just as many butch lesbians as there are screaming queens?

I'd say there are plenty of butch lesbians around. Possibly as many as there are flamboyantly "queeny" gay men. It's just a question of visibility. For example there are plenty of gay men who are not screaming queens. But we notice the flamboyant men a lot more because they are more visible.

The thing with butch women, though, is that unless it's a very overt kind of actively sexual vibe of butchness it becomes more able to "pass" as it were. The butch quality is overlooked without comment either because a)it's still too outside of the cultural norm or comfort to speak of with ease or b)it's easy to pass off as "sensible" or "practical". Having passed through a lot of horse country in NJ, MA and VA, I've noticed there are plenty of women out there who dress like dykes but aren't necessarily gay. They've got the hair cut and the flannel and the shoes and the truck/SUV's. But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of gay, because to them it's just practical dressing.

Also, I work in the theater. I can't kick a prop without running into a tech dyke or a handy dyke - and I'd say three quarters of the lesbians on the tech and production end are quite butch.

So to echo the thoughts of many other folks here, I'm not sure how much of the stereotypical behaviour of gayness is biological and how much is cultural. Perhaps it's a biologcally induced enculturation.

The question that this thread now leads to is how any different kinds of gyaness are there. For example I know many men who exhibit none of the stereotypical gay behaviours. In a crowd there would be nothing to identify them as gay - they are not feminine, not effete, not spiffy dressers, are not "artistic" - but they're gay. Similarly with women. I know plenty of women who cannot be identified superficially by their tastes in fashion, bearing, presentation or temperament as gay, and yet they are. Are there varietals of gayness? If so how many such cepages are there? What effect does terroir have on varietals of gayness. In fact, how many responders on this list are not from the US. Are there stereotypes of gayness that are unique to to individual countries?

[tangentman]

As pointed out earlier by several guys, latinos often identify "gay" by behavior (bottoming) rather than by orientation.

Personally, I find the guys who act stereotypically gay too shrill for my taste.

[bfrank]

Your premise is that gay men act feminine because they want to attract guys. If that was the reason, then one would expect all gay men to act femine, since they all want to be with men. But, they don't. So, it's clearly *not* that it's just about attracting men.

I don't see what's so hard about this one.
I do! It's alright for tom to have the same premise? (granted, it was stated better)

Also, in the post you quoted, he noted that he was not speaking of all gay men......

[JeffreyWKramer]

I do! It's alright for tom to have the same premise? (granted, it was stated better)

Also, in the post you quoted, he noted that he was not speaking of all gay men......

First off, Tom's point isn't quite the same, though there is some overlap with the points both make.

Second, his original post was indeed speaking about all gay men, or sure seemed to imply that.

[Arrjay]

Y is kinda a gay letter in general.

Bastard.Ten.

[Novaya Havoc]

First off, Tom's point isn't quite the same, though there is some overlap with the points both make.

Second, his original post was indeed speaking about all gay men, or sure seemed to imply that.
Oh, BFD. We all make generalizations. Even the topic of this thread is by leaving lesbians out of the mix.

[K'Nort]

Oh, BFD. We all make generalizations. Even the topic of this thread is by leaving lesbians out of the mix.

Now there's one I don't understand. Why/when did 'gay' become men only?

[Gilda Dent]

I don't see any exclusion of lesbians in the title or the OP. Several people interpreted the OP in terms of lesbians and responded on that basis.

[tangentman]

I also think that the consensus here is that "butch" isn't that large a variation for women, because the culture at large shows more tolerance for "tomboys" than for "sissies". People in general probably perceive more differences between a stereotypical "gay man" and the typical notion of masculinity.

[Camron Amaya]

Your premise is that gay men act feminine because they want to attract guys. If that was the reason, then one would expect all gay men to act femine, since they all want to be with men. But, they don't. So, it's clearly *not* that it's just about attracting men.

I don't see what's so hard about this one.

That wasn't my premiss at all lmao

[Novaya Havoc]

Now there's one I don't understand. Why/when did 'gay' become men only?

To be a technical ass, since the advent of feminism. Originally, lesbians were labelled "gay girls" or "gay women," until the feminist movement picked up steam and coined "lesbianism" from the sapphic writings of Lesbos.

And on the point of this thread:

"That being said, something that always made me curious was why people acted gay? There are many words to describe what I'm talking about, most of which are not complimentary, however when people think of a stereotypical gay man, there are a number of things that come to mind. Lispy, lilty, nasally sounding voices, swishy feminine hand gestures, extremely dramatic and emotional, often to the point of hysterics or histrionics."

It's clearly about gay men. Thanks for playing.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That wasn't my premiss at all lmao

Then what exactly was your premise? That's sure what it looked like from your original post.

[K'Nort]

To be a technical ass, since the advent of feminism. Originally, lesbians were labelled "gay girls" or "gay women," until the feminist movement picked up steam and coined "lesbianism" from the sapphic writings of Lesbos.

Actually, that's helpful and not at all assy. I hadn't realized that the girls/women qualifier got regularly added on before. I was under the impression the term was always a catch-all, like homosexual.


And on the point of this thread:

"That being said, something that always made me curious was why people acted gay? There are many words to describe what I'm talking about, most of which are not complimentary, however when people think of a stereotypical gay man, there are a number of things that come to mind. Lispy, lilty, nasally sounding voices, swishy feminine hand gestures, extremely dramatic and emotional, often to the point of hysterics or histrionics."

It's clearly about gay men. Thanks for playing.

Now that wasn't me.

[Gilda Dent]

It's clearly about gay men. Thanks for playing.

The OP mentions some gay male stereotypes, sure. It also uses gender neutral terms in the rest, and several posters have responded in terms of lesbian behavior. Making reference to gay men in that section doesn't mean that the discussion is exclusive to gay men. I read it as an "including, but not limited to" list or examples within an open ended general question.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I find the topic interesting in regard to both gay males and lesbians.

[Corrina]

The culture at large in America has only shown a more recent acceptance of tomboys. I'm not even middle-aged, and I remember being shut out of Little League because only boys were allowed to play.

Aside from field hockey, there were no women's team sports at my high school when I graduated in 1983. And those that played field hockey were known as 'the lesbians.'

I grew up a sports loving tomboy who hated dresses and the color pink and Barbies who played more often at being Carl Yastremski than trying to learn to cook. We had home economics in junior high--boys took shop, girls took sewing and cooking. If a girl wanted to take shop (which I did but wasn't possible)--LESBIAN. And that was considered very bad. (Sadly, still is, somewhat.)

Add in my love of science fiction and comics and my stint at a military academy...and I can't tell how many times people decided I was a lesbian and let's just say while the culture isn't exactly accepting of gays and lesbians now, it was much less than that 20 years ago.

Which is less of a complaint than pointing out that it's gender roles that the culture seems to use to determine 'gayness.' Look at stay-at-home dads. There's an assumption that the guy must be gay, in many cases.

Female athletes aren't automatically shunned or assumed to be lesbians now. In fact, my daughter tells me it adds to a girl's 'hotness' at her middle school. That's because the American culture is far more accepting of girls playing sports now than twenty years ago.

So since gender roles have shifted in less than a generation, some stereotypical (and sometimes inaccurate) signs of being a lesbian are no longer considered signs....making it harder for the culture to come up with a checklist, I guess. Which I think is good, because it then forces people to treat other people as individuals instead of reverting to some sort of stereotype.

Look at Annie Hall, who made dressing like a man somehow 'hot' in the mid-1970s. Lots of heterosexual women took up the fashion trend, probably because they wanted to look as cool as Diane Keaton. (I'm hoping it wasn't because they were hoping for Woody Allen to court them....)

[tangentman]

I remember a study we covered in an old class: the theory was that gay men who DIDN'T fit the stereotype often experienced more distrust and hostility than the "typical gay man". The idea put forth in that case was one of straight peers feeling more comfortable around gay men who met their preconceived notions. Men who foiled those expectations were given a harder time by straight co-workers/friends/classmates. Granted, this study was researched in the early 70's.

I wonder how much that attitude plays out in everday life? ARE straight people more comfortable with gay people when we fit their notions of being "gay"?

[Novaya Havoc]

Actually, that's helpful and not at all assy. I hadn't realized that the girls/women qualifier got regularly added on before. I was under the impression the term was always a catch-all, like homosexual.


Thanks! Read "Making Gay History" by Eric Marcus. Fascinating, if a bit long. Skimming and selecting areas of interest is fine, of course.


Gilda: I understand where you're coming from, but that's stretching it a bit. If you look at the subject comprehensively, it's clearly about gay men, exclusively. We can interpret to all hell about it being inclusive, but it was basically asking why gay men are such flamers.

[Corrina]

I wonder how much that attitude plays out in everday life? ARE straight people more comfortable with gay people when we fit their notions of being "gay"?

There certainly seemed to be more acceptance of the gay sex life of the flamboyant supporting character on "Will & Grace" than the more 'manly' lead gay character. Jack got laid right and left. Will, not so much.

[Novaya Havoc]

I remember a study we covered in an old class: the theory was that gay men who DIDN'T fit the stereotype often experienced more distrust and hostility than the "typical gay man". The idea put forth in that case was one of straight peers feeling more comfortable around gay men who met their preconceived notions. Men who foiled those expectations were given a harder time by straight co-workers/friends/classmates. Granted, this study was researched in the early 70's.

I wonder how much that attitude plays out in everday life? ARE straight people more comfortable with gay people when we fit their notions of being "gay"?

I disagree. As a gay man, I've had better relationships with straight guys who know I'm gay, but still play the straight guy. They have no flamboyant gay friends.

They're receptive to gays, but want some common ground. Talking about work, jobs, politics, economics, women, sports. They get very uncomfortable when you go into stereotype-mode.

[K'Nort]

Look at stay-at-home dads. There's an assumption that the guy must be gay, in many cases.

That juxtaposition hurts my head.

Female athletes aren't automatically shunned or assumed to be lesbians now. In fact, my daughter tells me it adds to a girl's 'hotness' at her middle school. That's because the American culture is far more accepting of girls playing sports now than twenty years ago.

I think it's because society is more accepting of stronger roles for women in general. Men aren't as threatened by the idea any longer. It doesn't automatically subtract from their own masculinity now. (I wonder why it originally did.)

[JeffreyWKramer]

I wonder how much that attitude plays out in everday life? ARE straight people more comfortable with gay people when we fit their notions of being "gay"?

I can't speak for straight people in general, but I'm comfortable with gay guys - and lesbians - that fit some of the stereotypes, and with those that don't fit those stereotypes. If anything, I have a slight preference for those that aren't too flamboyant, because the flamers seem to be too focused on the fact of their sexuality. I don't think it's a very healthy sign when someone makes their sexual orientation the entire focus of their public persona. This suggests that the person is defining him or herself by her orientation, and who someone fucks isn't the most important - and certainly not the only important - aspect of a healthy, balanced personality.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Gilda: I understand where you're coming from, but that's stretching it a bit. If you look at the subject comprehensively, it's clearly about gay men, exclusively. We can interpret to all hell about it being inclusive, but it was basically asking why gay men are such flamers.

Eh, related topics are certainly valid, and there's no reason to not include them. Besides, didn't Boldido say he'd considered including discussion of butch lesbians in the original post?

[JeffreyWKramer]

There certainly seemed to be more acceptance of the gay sex life of the flamboyant supporting character on "Will & Grace" than the more 'manly' lead gay character. Jack got laid right and left. Will, not so much.

I think that was presented as due to Jack being more of a slut.

[Corrina]

And that was viewed as unacceptable behavior, like Karen's drinking.

And that throws off a very bad vibe, to my mind. Joey on "Friends" certainly got more props for his sleeping around, rather than being viewed as having a completely unsavory love life. The other guys in "Friends" admired Joey's love life. But Will didn't admire Jack's.

[Gilda Dent]

Gilda: I understand where you're coming from, but that's stretching it a bit. If you look at the subject comprehensively, it's clearly about gay men, exclusively. We can interpret to all hell about it being inclusive, but it was basically asking why gay men are such flamers.

If you look at the ongoing discussion comprehensively, you'll see that lesbians have been included in much of the discussion, and given that this type of thing affects that group as well, if not to the same extent, I see no reason for exclusivity.

[Spike-X]

I don't think it's a very healthy sign when someone makes their sexual orientation the entire focus of their public persona. This suggests that the person is defining him or herself by her orientation, and who someone fucks isn't the most important - and certainly not the only important - aspect of a healthy, balanced personality.

This goes for straight people too, of course. Nothing gets more tedious than hearing a guy constantly talking about his sex life, or "What he'd like to do to her!"

[JeffreyWKramer]

And that was viewed as unacceptable behavior, like Karen's drinking.

Thing is, I don't know that just because Jack was both flaming and a slut, they were really implying that flamers are more slutty than less flamboyant gay guys. I think they just combined those characteristics in Jack to make him the silly sidekick character.

I don't know the show that well, though - not exactly a favorite, though I've seen a bunch of eps because Ian likes it - is there a more broad suggestion that the flamey guys are more slutty?

And that throws off a very bad vibe, to my mind. Joey on "Friends" certainly got more props for his sleeping around, rather than being viewed as having a completely unsavory love life. The other guys in "Friends" admired Joey's love life. But Will didn't admire Jack's.
That's sort of funky, the idea W&G might be a more conservative show than FRIENDS. The shows didn't share producers and writers and such, did they? If so, it may reflect the erroneous idea that gay folk should be more concerned than straights about promiscuity, or some sort of double standard. If not, one can note the difference in portrayal, but it may simply represent differences in the POVs of the creative teams.

[JeffreyWKramer]

This goes for straight people too, of course. Nothing gets more tedious than hearing a guy constantly talking about his sex life, or "What he'd like to do to her!"

Absolutely.

[K'Nort]

There certainly seemed to be more acceptance of the gay sex life of the flamboyant supporting character on "Will & Grace" than the more 'manly' lead gay character. Jack got laid right and left. Will, not so much.

I read something on that way back when the show was at its peak. The theory was something about Jack's character being less threatening, because he was such a clown. And weak. But someone like Will is too "normal" and thus indetectable and scary.

Tying into that twisted hangup so many men have about automatically getting assaulted.

[Fabian]

Apparently, almost everyone at work thought I was gay. Just last week a woman at my table was hitting on me and said that she'd "jump my bones" but that it's too bad I'm gay.

Maybe I should stop with the Cock and Coke.

[tangentman]

I read something on that way back when the show was at its peak. The theory was something about Jack's character being less threatening, because he was such a clown. And weak. But someone like Will is too "normal" and thus indetectable and scary.

The sluttiness of Jack notwithstanding, I see what you mean. You're basically talking about the gay variant of the "minstrel"--straights like their gays funny and non-threatening. Especially as long as there isn't suggestion that choice of sexual partner might be the only real difference.

Tying into that twisted hangup so many men have about automatically getting assaulted.

Are such men afraid that guys are going to slip under the radar and "stealth-fuck" them?

[K'Nort]

The sluttiness of Jack notwithstanding, I see what you mean. You're basically talking about the gay variant of the "minstrel"--straights like their gays funny and non-threatening.

Minstrel is exactly the right analogy for what I was trying to explain, yes.


Are such men afraid that guys are going to slip under the radar and "stealth-fuck" them?

More like jump them in the gym locker room, near as I can tell. It's really neurotic.

[Spike-X]

More like jump them in the gym locker room, near as I can tell. It's really neurotic.

Yeah, as a straight guy I just don't get this. Most of the guys worried about this kind of thing really aren't that irresistable.

I think it's more that they're afraid that, "He's gonna grab my dick...and I...I might like it!"

[Boldido]

Eh, related topics are certainly valid, and there's no reason to not include them. Besides, didn't Boldido say he'd considered including discussion of butch lesbians in the original post?Yes I did, and by all means I seriously doubt it would be considered thread drift to discuss why some lesbians act butch.

The whole point of this thread was to discuss stereotypical aspects of homosexuality and what their sources might be. I singled out gay men because on the day I posted the thread I had just come from Target where I saw two flamboyently gay men. That's what inspired the thread to begin with. If I saw some woman in a flannel shirt with a mullet if may have been about lesbians.

My only request in regard to the thread was that it be an honest discussion of stereotypical gay traits and not devolve into a gay marraige discussion and that any anti-gay posters who might stumble onto the thread and want to use it as an opportunity to post stay the fuck away.

[Valmore]

So which is the more prevalent stereotype?

That all lesbians are hot hot HOT chicks and they're tormenting straight men?

Or that all lesbians are ugly chicks with mullets that no straight man would do anyway?

[Zombienorthstar]

Four types of gay men ive encountered

-Gay men who act gay in an almost forced way...constantly making innuendo and basically harassing straight men. They can solidify their identity this way but mainly it talks of their raging insecurity. They are acting as people expect them to act.These are the most likely to be offended by something minor, in my opinion. Their sexuality is always an issue and will ALWAYS come into their conversations with you.

-Gay men who happen to be slightly effeminate.

-Gay men who happen to be slightly masculine.

-Gay men who act manly in an forced way...constantly making innuendo, boasting about their sex lives and basically harassing women. Any suggestion they are gay or feminine will send them into a RAGE. Once again it talks of their raging insecurity and internalised homophobia. They are far more sensitive that a straight man would be about feminine issues. Scared they're dancing gay, talking gay or walking gay.

[JeffreyWKramer]

So which is the more prevalent stereotype?

That all lesbians are hot hot HOT chicks and they're tormenting straight men?

Or that all lesbians are ugly chicks with mullets that no straight man would do anyway?

I don't know that any but the most ignorant hold anything either of those stereotypes these days. I think most people realize neither covers all lesbians.

I think the dumbest stereotype about lesbians is that they'll want some guy to join them, if it's the right guy. A lot of guys seem to believe that one, and that they might possibly be "the right guy."

I think another prominent stereotype about lesbians is that they all hate men. That one has a bit of truth to it - not the "all" part, but the "hate" part. Not all lesbians hate men, but some do, and this minority is sometimes so vocal about their hate that it's perpetuated the stereotype. Such sentiments often reflect histories of abuse by or bad experiences with men. In contrast, relatively few gay men seem to hate or particularly dislike women.

[Valmore]

I don't know that any but the most ignorant hold anything either of those stereotypes these days. I think most people realize neither covers all lesbians.

That's the thing about stereotypes, none cover the whole of any one group, but there are those who think they do. I wouldn't be surprised to find there are those who think of those two as the prevailing stereotypes of lesbians: and the hot chicks want just the right guy to join, and the ugly ones hate all men.

Mind you - I don't think of it that way, but I've seen those who do.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That's the thing about stereotypes, none cover the whole of any one group, but there are those who think they do. I wouldn't be surprised to find there are those who think of those two as the prevailing stereotypes of lesbians: and the hot chicks want just the right guy to join, and the ugly ones hate all men.

Mind you - I don't think of it that way, but I've seen those who do.

Maybe. Even dumb-asses I know don't seem to believe that all lesbians fall into either of the camps you describe. However, it's hard to correctly underestimate the capacity for human stupidity. So, there are probably more than a few that believe those particular stereotypes.

I do know that a lot of people believe the other two I mentioned, though - all lesbians are man-haters and most or all lesbians are secrety waiting for hot threesome sex with "the right guy."

[Tommy]

The amazing thing about being gay is that you are constantly blindsided by stereotypes. Mostly from people who are your friends and should know you better.

My dear friend Kathy one day told me she had already invited one of her friends to her wedding, I responded "Fine don't invite me. I wouldn't want to get dressed up anyhow," to which she replied "your gay, you live for getting dressed up." Now anyone who knows me (as well as she should have) knows I have a pathological hatred of anything approaching formal clothes. A few days later she was telling me her room was really dirty and that if I saw it I would freak out. Now I really don't know how dirty it was, but I bet it could not top my room which at the time had about three spots on the floor where you could see the carpet and empty Chinese food containers piling up in my trash.

My beloved friend Trent, who upon hearing that I was far closer to my father than my mother and that he would be fine with my sexual orientation while she would freak out remarked "Really I would think the opposite." Now having never met my parents I am not sure what position he would be in to make that assumption. Also he apparently ignored the hundreds of times I complained about my mother to him.

Ohhh... and as for acting gay I was told that I was subtle about it yesterday. I have also been told I have "a gay walk" which I still can't figure out nor can anyone else I have asked.

[Paul McEnery]

That all lesbians are hot hot HOT chicks and they're tormenting straight men?


Ah, that's certainly true of my friend Vanessa.

Especially since she's got a straight twin sister. Who acts exactly the same way.

[Gilda Dent]

The amazing thing about being gay is that you are constantly blindsided by stereotypes.

Yeah. Everyone who doesn't know us assumes that Emily and I are sisters. This I find a little strange because, other than being of a similar age and ethnicity, we don't look much alike and we certainly don't share any kind of family resemblance. Nobody ever assumes that we're a couple without being told explicitly.

We've had guys continue to hit on use after telling them that "We're together," or even "We're a couple." Some don't seem to get it with anything less than "We're lesbians and we're not interested in you," and on occasion it's required getting rather blunt, which probably gets us labeled as man-haters.

We've run into the assumption that we're man haters several times, Emily a bit more often because she's a bit more of a tomboy type, though exactly why less feminine is seen by some to equal man hater I'm not sure.

I get losers hitting on me when waiting in the bar area of a restaurant for Emily sometimes who persist even after being told I'm gay.

[Michael P]

Ah, that's certainly true of my friend Vanessa.

Especially since she's got a straight twin sister. Who acts exactly the same way.
Wasn't this the plot to a David Lodge novel?

[Pyro]

This thread is pretty interesting. I'm still curious as to where I fall. I don't think I'm very obviously gay, though a lot of hints are there if you pick up on them. A lot of my interests can be considered stereotypical, but I think people see me more as "artsy" than "gay." Other than that stuff I'm a lot like my straight friends and most people I've come out to have said that they wouldn't have guessed. And I'm certainly not neat or effeminate, though, every once in a while I find myself acting "gay" absent-mindedly when I'm alone-- I don't know if that's something I've stifled or something I've affected. I do recall some things I did as a child that I eventually learned not to do because it wasn't "what boys did." Still, I'm fairly ambiguous. And granted, I'm still not sure about my sexuality yet.

I guess I would say I'm subtle about it like Tommy said.

[Solaris]

My dad. The Gay Years.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/lena212/pa.jpg

Kidding.

Actually, the Army Years.

We always tease him about these photos from back in the day.

Wow... did he try out for the Village People? ;) :D

[Solaris]

Someone mentioned the ongoing process to understanding one's sexuality... that's very true. So far I've figured out that while I'm attracted to both genders, there are significantly more men that I'm attracted to (physically) than women... and further, I tend to get a bit nervous, most of the time, when a woman hits on me. I think it's because most of the time, it's a woman that I'm *not* attracted to in that way... and I have no earthly idea how to say that without hurting their feelings. Hence, the discomfort.

The times that it *is* someone I'm attracted to... are another story. :D

When it's a *male* who's hitting on me, that I feel no real attraction for... I know how to handle it. I've been doing so for years. But with women... it's like, sometimes I wonder if just saying "I'm bi" makes them think that I'm available/attracted, etc., when I'm just saying that I'm bi. That's all. (Well, if it's more, my flirting and bodylanguage will definitely show it, but again, that's been very rare, that I've actually met in person a female I have an interest in.

So, all that makes me wonder: do gay males or females usually have a tougher time saying "sorry, I'm not interested" to those of the opposite gender, or their own? Or does it matter? I'm guessing answers would go across the spectrum on that, but would still be interesting.

For me, I have very little modeling to go by, on how to turn down a female without offending or hurting feelings... and though I tend to go by the "just be as honest and nice as you can" rule, it's still uncomfortable for me.

[Nikita]

One of my best friends in highschool was a gay guy. He thought he was bi but the rest of us knew he was gay before he did. At 16, he was already "acting more feminine" and "whispy". I've always thought these more feminine traits in gay men were just genetic. Every gay man I've ever met has had some of these traits, if not all. I realize not all gay men "act gay", but all the ones I've met over the years always have in some stereotypical way or another. That's why I've always believed being gay is genetic in so many men. Why would so many gay men share these traits if some of this was not in their genes?

I could care less how "gay" they act. Gay men are the coolest.

[Wesley Dodds]

Why would so many gay men share these traits if some of this was not in their genes?

It is in the jeans.

But it's called the penis.

[Nikita]

It is in the jeans.

But it's called the penis.


Ok, you made me blow snot bubbles out of my nose from laughing. Dork! LOL.

[Zombienorthstar]

"DUDE, you kissed a girl!"
"That is SO gay!!!"

[Typo Lad]

This topic is facinating.

I've always had people question my sexuality. For starters, I've always loved kids. I babysat, which was considered odd. I had tons of female friends, but wasn't loudly announcing my intnetions to get in thier knickers. I was bad at sports. A bunch of people thought that meant I was gay.

Alternativly, my sister-in-law went through a Lesbian phase. Her basic logic was this: I like sports. I don't like girl stuff. I must be a lesbian. More recently she's pretty much decided she's bi.

[Winslow]

Yeah, people's perceptions always make me scratch my head from time to time.

Due to injuries (3 knee surgeries and a torn achillies) I don't play sports anymore. I was a high school and college football and basketball player. In high school, I was an all-conference football player that was recruited by Div. II and III schools.

The friends I've made in my "post athletic-self" don't believe I played sports (at first) and think I'm effiminate (WTF?). I like the arts, I like kids, and I am emotional, sensitive, and empathetic more than the average guy.

The effiminate label is not always malicous, mean spirited or bigoted. Definitions can help people understand you better. In my case, I think the "box" someone tries to put me in doesn't help them understand me at all.

[Typo Lad]

Winslow, I once had a 12 year old girl ask me if I was gay.

I (foolishly) reponded "no. I just like little girls. What are you doing later?"

"MOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!"

[Winslow]

Winslow, I once had a 12 year old girl ask me if I was gay.

I (foolishly) reponded "no. I just like little girls. What are you doing later?"

"MOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!"

Wise little girl . . .

:D

[Gilda Dent]

So, all that makes me wonder: do gay males or females usually have a tougher time saying "sorry, I'm not interested" to those of the opposite gender, or their own? Or does it matter? I'm guessing answers would go across the spectrum on that, but would still be interesting.

I don't get women hitting on me. Everyone who hasn't been told explicitly that I'm gay reads me as straight. I think I'd probably say I'm flattered, but I'm in a relationship. I've found that I have to be a bit firmer with a lot of the guys. I'm amazed at how many of them treat "no" as if it were "maybe" and don't disengage, which is a sure sign that the guy isn't someone I'd be willing to trust.

The friends I've made in my "post athletic-self" don't believe I played sports (at first) and think I'm effiminate (WTF?). I like the arts, I like kids, and I am emotional, sensitive, and empathetic more than the average guy.

The effiminate label is not always malicous, mean spirited or bigoted. Definitions can help people understand you better. In my case, I think the "box" someone tries to put me in doesn't help them understand me at all.

Those are generally considered feminine qualities. There's really nothing wrong with it, except for the expectation that a man who exhibits those behaviors must be gay. I think we'd be a lot better off as a society if we could just accept that it's OK for men and boys to have feminine qualities and for women and girls to have masculine qualities. The latter we're doing pretty well at, but we're still lagging quite a bit behind on the former.

[Christopher O]

One of my best friends in highschool was a gay guy. He thought he was bi but the rest of us knew he was gay before he did. At 16, he was already "acting more feminine" and "whispy". I've always thought these more feminine traits in gay men were just genetic. Every gay man I've ever met has had some of these traits, if not all. I realize not all gay men "act gay", but all the ones I've met over the years always have in some stereotypical way or another. That's why I've always believed being gay is genetic in so many men. Why would so many gay men share these traits if some of this was not in their genes?

I actually think there's some validity to this. I've never met a gay man that didn't have at least some small mannerism that would be considered effiminate or gay. It may take a few minutes for some of us to reveal our hands, so to speak, but I generally find that we give some kind of mannerism-based indication, even if it's small.

[tetragene]

Interesting thread. I think that every gay/bi male has some mannerisms and whatnot that, while not inherently "feminine", are a bit...how to say..."out of character" for a typical straight male. Like me, for instance...my voice isn't high pitched, I don't lisp, have a limp wrist, or use my hands predominately when I'm talking--but when I sit I usually sit upright instead of slouched, I eat with my mouth closed instead of smacking and getting food all over the place, have no qualms about listening to "pop" music, retorted with witty quips instead of token name calling, and have a penchant for being very sarcastic and have grudge/vengence "problems", lol. When I did "come out" my friends were surprised but then weeks later they would tell me how the things like my "polite eating habits", sarcasm/grudge problems, and music taste should have "clued them in" that I wasn't straight. I've run into people from highschool who say they knew or suspected and others who had no clue--and even some who say they always knew, although their actions and comments in highschool spoke otherwise. I think a lot of times what can be considered as "gay" acting or mannerisms doesn't necessarily mean feminine (although it a lot of cases it does), but just something that is not considered uber-masculine...because that's what's expected of males. In retrospect I can see where a lot of things should have maybe clued me in on the fact that I wasn't like most other guys (read: "straight"). I mean I liked Kylie Minogue's singles when she re-emerged in America (although I would never listen to them in front of others), my favorite charcater was Dazzler, I liked romantic comedies as much as action flicks, etc. But there are all kinds of "indicators" about gay men and women (most of which are usually used by other gay men/women to "sniff others out"), I suppose--some quite stereotypical (albeit true in a lot of cases), some not so much. God, do I ever wish the "all cute men are gay" bit was true ;)

Overly feminine characteristics aside, I've found that if a guy (particularly teen/young adult) is polite and well mannered then he will almost surely be labled gay, even if he's really not. One guy I knew in highschool who never gave me gay vibes was very polite, well mannered, and intelligent...and tons of people always talked about how he had to be gay, even though I'm almost positively sure he isn't. On the other hand a guy who definitely gave me gay vibes was not all that polite or well mannered, though he was a likable guy in the kind of "old southern boy" bit. He was quite touchy feely with other males (which he seemed to be kind of selective about) and is the only "non-gay" guy I've known to ever even jokingly suggest a threesome with another male, yet no one thought he was gay--but it was something I definitely got vibes of (and since highschool have learned that he is "bi"). I also knew someone who had a slew of feminine characteristics but I don't in the slightest think he's gay or even bi...I just think he's quite an effiminate straight guy (they do exist)--everybody thinks he's gay though. I think it's pretty sad that in today's time you have to be fairly dumb, brutish, and sluggish to be considered a "real man".

[Solaris]

I keyed into your last statement... and I don't think it's *quite* true.

A "real" man is whatever the man perceives himself to be. Period. At least, that's how it is in my book.

Maybe I'm a bit biased in this. I'm bi, and so is my husband. I love that he's bigger and stronger than me, and very male at times... but I also love that he's got wide hips, feminine curves in places, dimples, and a certain "softness" at times... especially in romantic moments. I guess for "switchy" people like us, it's a good combo---since at times I'm more masculine, and at times more feminine.

Bottom line is, we're just people. But adding layers to it, yes, we both received societal conditioning as to gender roles... and honestly, the fact that we are geared toward both, depending on circumstance, may well factor into how we enjoy things. (And I'm not just talking sex.) In a lot of ways, a lot of lines have really blurred for us. I'm a strong-willed woman, who at times needs reassurance or a strong person with me, and at times is very willing to take the lead. He's a man who makes a lot of decisions in work, and at home often has times where he can't make up his mind, and frankly doesn't want to. He's my rock, and I am his. I am his pillow, and he is mine. We sort of live moment by moment, rather than ascribing to typical gender roles.

And while he can be very feminine when he wants to be (feminine in the broad sense of attributes we ascribe to femininity), he can also be quite masculine, ditto. Same for me.

I guess, when all is said and done, I'm just a damned lucky woman to have found someone so utterly compatible with me and who I am, and to be so compatible with him.

:D

[tetragene]

I keyed into your last statement... and I don't think it's *quite* true.

A "real" man is whatever the man perceives himself to be. Period. At least, that's how it is in my book.

I'm sure that that's how most people ideally feel. However, I don't think it much of a stretch to say that in current culture (at least western culture, as that's all I really have exposure to)--to be considered a "real man" you have to be brutish and sluggish. Things like manners, feelings, and compassion are considered too "sissy" and are only for "wussies". There are of course a lot of guys--straight, gay, and bi alike--who don't fit that mold, but it's a mold that is pushed and heralded nonetheless. Just like waaay back in the day when not liking/playing sports and being a nerd made others/society deem people as less of men. I think things have improved in some regards since then, but there's still a lot of ridiculous and counter productive expectations set forth towards men (and women alike) that if you don't fit into you're considered less manly/womanly. Societal expectations are a bitch.

and congrats on being in a very compatible relationship, if only everyone were so lucky :)

[Winslow]

I'm sur