Questioning Authority in Wartime

[PatrickG]

I was surfing through the outer perimeter of my friends of friends' profiles on myspace the other day.

This is something taken from the blog of a 21 year-old Iraq veteran:

I hate liberals
Current mood: annoyed
Category: News and Politics

Take a man and put him alone, Put him twelve thousand miles from home. Empty his heart of all but blood, Make him live in sand and mud. This is the life I have to live, This the soul to God I give. You have your parties and drink your beer, While young men are dying over here. Plant your signs on the White House lawn; Use your signs and have your fun, Then refuse to use a gun. There's nothing else for you to do, And I'm supposed to die for you? There is one thing that you should know; And that's where I think you should go! I'm already here and it's too late. I've traded all my love for all this hate. I'll hate you till the day I die. You made me hear my buddy cry. I saw his leg and his blood shed, And I heard them say, "This one's dead". It was a large price for him to pay, To let you live another day. He had the guts to fight and die, To keep the freedom that you live by. By his dying, your life he buys, But who gives a FUCK if a Soldier dies.

I'll be frank. I consider myself a conservative, a classical liberal. I support trickle down. I support the thrust behind the contract with America. I believe that a federal income tax is both illegal and unconstitutional and that ANY government spending that can be avoided amounts to exploitation and enslavement of all Americans. I'm an isolationist, by and large.

If Pat Buchanan would cut the racist crap and the homophobic crap, I could vote for him. If the Libertarians could get their act together, I'd be behind them 110%.

But this blog made my blood boil. It's ignorant and hateful and I'd rather the U.S. fall than fill its soldiers with hate and convince them that military action is always (or usually or maybe even ever) in the U.S.' best interests.

And anyone who thinks it's wrong to question a war, a president or an army in times of war is someone I consider to be a traitor to the land I love.

Treason is not questioning authority in a nation which is founded on property rights, civil rights and the individual who is owed representation by a servant government. Treason is demanding that the government go unquestioned, that soldiers always receive nothing but thanks and that politicians receive unwavering respect and support regardless of their aims.

I also find the AABB rhyming to be trite.

I had a an old friend disabled in this war. I had another old friend killed and his funeral was wrapped in yellow ribbons and the American flag with everyone claiming that his poorly armored vehicle getting blown up was in the defense of freedom, when I could NEVER accept that. I keep hearing about vets who come home and how feral they are, how they jump at loud noises and stick up for each other like blood. I hear about vets caught in the grip of paranoia and substance abuse who can't have normal relationships... And these men and women were often well-adjusted, bright, self-confident people before they left.

And our army makes me sick and ashamed to be an American. Military discipline and conditioning and strategy and living conditions make me ashamed to be an American.

If any of my little cousins signed up, I'd punch them in the face. I haven't punched anybody since I was 12 and that guy died in Iraq in 2005.

I just hope this sparks discussion. I'm worried that we excuse the bad behavior of politicians and soldiers and intelligence agents not only in the field but when they get back home out of misplaced loyalties. And we shouldn't. We should hold their eyes open and scream the truth at them, even if it causes them to break down all over again.

I'd rather lose every stressed out soldier or grieving war mother to despair and mental illness and a pained existence than lose one freedom, one civil liberty, one soft voice to challenge the government.

And if that's wrong then I don't think being a true American allows a person to be right.

[PatrickG]

And I've got enough rage left in me for a tagent.

I'm sure most of you have seen the video of the college student tasered by police. Some of you probably heard of the 87 year-old woman in Atlanta who died after police burst in with a no-knock warrant on a bad tip, saw she had a gun and killed her.

And in response to these things, police and soldiers always bemoan how thankless their job is.

I've seen editorials by cops complaining about how people who complain about speeding tickets still want public services. No duh! They usually talk about how they never get the thanks they deserve and I think it's insane that they ever expected to.

Before I formulated my views on pacifism, I considered law enforcement or work as a prosecutor. I have a lot of respect for the average civil servant.

But I think it's batshit loco to expect to be appreciated in any government job and it's probably more realistic and healthy to never expect anything but pure loathing from people.

So whenever I see people in government service bemoan the level of respect they're given, I want to slap them for being an ungrateful bastard to the American electorate, the American taxpayers and their community back home.

[Adam Crocker]

Wait he hates the people most likely to call for the soldiers to be brought home from Iraq and out of harm's way for expecting him to die? :confused:

[BoosterBronze]

I give a fuck if a soldier dies. I have friends and family in the Mid-East right now. And I want the war to end so they, and other's friends and families, wont fucking die.

Pain and frustration expressed through poetry is all well and good, but if this veteran opposed the anti-war movement, then he should consider which side of the fence is the side that doesn't care if soldiers die or not.

Actually, the poems not so bad from an artistic standpoint. Could be cleaned up a bit.

[Ontir]

As a former employee of both a city, and the federal government, and someone who has been abused by the latter, I can tell you that a good number of federal employees aren't worth their air supply. They have no concept or consideration, that they're dealing with human beings. All they see is objectives between breaks and vacations, and if you do more, or care at all, you're considered outright odd. If you ask for more, or hell, even basic competence, you're an annoyance and a trouble-maker.

They screwed me around for months, after they lost the disability paperwork I sent them. I had no money, I was unable to work, and being threatened with eviction. All I got from them was that it takes X amount of days; but they'll write a letter to my landlord. I informed the helpful wag that her letter would be toilet paper, and nothing more! They never did actually file the paperwork properly. The only reason that things got done, is that I had a nurse assigned to my case, who said, "I'm coming to your Dr.'s appointment." She left with a copy of all the medical files, and when I was speaking to Worker's Comp, and they said they could do nothing, because they had no documentation, I said, "Oh yes you do..." The got the info from the nurse (thank God for her!), and I finally got paid, the day the 72 hour notice went up!

[Shellhead]

It sounds like you're much more of a libertarian than a conservative.

I thought this war in Iraq was a mistake from the start, and in early 2003, I even predicted an eventual civil war in Iraq.

We take young men and put them through boot camp so that they will fight and obey orders even under extreme pressure. It's a dehumanizing process meant to break down free will and instill a sense of duty that will override the normal instincts of self-preservation. Then we send them out to kill people. That is war.

As citizens, we should be voting for politicians who will try to resolve conflicts in a peaceful and civilized manner, resorting to our considerable arsenal and manpower only when necessary. Support our troops by training them well, supplying them with the resources that they need, and using them only when we need something badly enough to risk human lives. Don't waste their young lives on political experiments. We also need to pay attention to how our leaders are conducting the war, just like we should pay attention to everything that the government does, like wasting our tax dollars.

And when our troops come home, we need to take care of them, physically and mentally. For the risks they take on our behalf, the least we can do is heal their wounds and pay for their college education.

[Ontir]

Shell, you and I, along with many of my friends, were in the same boat... with ex-President Bush, about the current war in Iraq. The state of that nation today, was a pretty obvious conclusion in 2002, unless of course, you happen to be a NeoCon.

[Spike-X]

If feel sorry for the poor bastard if he thinks that his being over there actually has anything to do with protecting the freedom and security of Americans back home.

I mean, does he truly believe that if the soldiers over there were called back home today, that the insurgents they're fighting would decide to invade America en masse?

[Chris N]

If feel sorry for the poor bastard if he thinks that his being over there actually has anything to do with protecting the freedom and security of Americans back home.

I mean, does he truly believe that if the soldiers over there were called back home today, that the insurgents they're fighting would decide to invade America en masse?


So, I think Patrick's posts were very well-said. It's hard to argue any of his points, though I'm not sure I'm entirely lined up to his point-of-view.

My feelings, I think, are like this. I'm glad we have a standing army. I don't know if Iraq would ever have been a direct threat to us. I don't know how many actual foreign threats to us there have ever been. Even if we never would have been attacked doesn't mean we never will be. And I'm glad there are people willing to fight and die for my freedom.

Did there fighting and dying in Iraq have any impact on my freedoms? I doubt it. Same for Vietnam. Probably the same for the whole Cold War (if anything that led to very negative effects on freedom from our own government)

But there could come a time when they are fighting for our lives and our freedoms. I would prefer if the politicians only sent them to fight at such times (which, hopefully, is never)

But, if they are going to be trained, if they are going to be effective, they have to believe in what they're fighting for. That they're going through their training, willing to die, watch friends die, and kill, for the right reasons. The military mindset is probably important to have in war. That they will obey and trust the orders of their superiors. In particular, the president.

It seems to me, to be a soldier, you have to be condition to think that way.

From the sidelines, we can see that the Commander-in-Chief is probably making a bad call, and this isn't what they should be fighting for. I can see where they don't have that luxury though.

So, I do admire them for being willing to fight for us. I think they've been told they are fighting for us, and I think, over there, they NEED to believe that.

I guess, I'm more inclined to give leeway to the soldiers, especially when it seems those in charge have betrayed their trust.

I could understand being annoyed at dying for my country and not feeling appreciated for it.

But, again, Patrick makes excellent points, and I do value our freedom to speak against our government above all.

[BoosterBronze]

I give a fuck if a soldier dies. I have friends and family in the Mid-East right now. And I want the war to end so they, and other's friends and families, wont fucking die.

Pain and frustration expressed through poetry is all well and good, but if this veteran opposed the anti-war movement, then he should consider which side of the fence is the side that doesn't care if soldiers die or not.

Actually, the poems not so bad from an artistic standpoint. Could be cleaned up a bit.

[Spike-X]

I'm glad we have a standing army. I don't know if Iraq would ever have been a direct threat to us. I don't know how many actual foreign threats to us there have ever been. Even if we never would have been attacked doesn't mean we never will be. And I'm glad there are people willing to fight and die for my freedom.


So am I. And I'd rather see them saved for a time when there is an actual threat than to see their lives wasted on bullshit.

[Spike-X]

I give a fuck if a soldier dies. I have friends and family in the Mid-East right now. And I want the war to end so they, and other's friends and families, wont fucking die.

Pain and frustration expressed through poetry is all well and good, but if this veteran opposed the anti-war movement, then he should consider which side of the fence is the side that doesn't care if soldiers die or not.

Actually, the poems not so bad from an artistic standpoint. Could be cleaned up a bit.
Man, that's gotta be the most-delayed double post ever!

[BoosterBronze]

Man, that's gotta be the most-delayed double post ever!

how the hell did that happen?!!

[Gilda Dent]

I'm sure most of you have seen the video of the college student tasered by police. Some of you probably heard of the 87 year-old woman in Atlanta who died after police burst in with a no-knock warrant on a bad tip, saw she had a gun and killed her.

If you were referring to this incident (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2006/11/21/1121copshot.html) (which may be different; the woman here is reported as 92), the police involved shot her after she had shot three of them, one three times. It's difficult for me to blame the police here.

[Iangould]

"You have your parties and drink your beer, While young men are dying over here."

Yeah, you don't see Republicans doing that.

"He had the guts to fight and die, To keep the freedom that you live by."

So honor his memory by shutting the fuck up and doing as you're told.

[Serik]

How is Iraq about "protecting our freedoms"? I hear this a lot, but no one explains how my freedoms would be endangered had Saddam stayed in power.

The last war that was about protecting our freedoms against an imminent threat was WWII as far as I'm concerned...

[JeffreyWKramer]

The last war that was about protecting our freedoms against an imminent threat was WWII as far as I'm concerned...

I'm 100% behind Bush having gone into Afghanistan. Al Qaeda attacked us, and were being supported by the Taliban. That was just. Shame they didn't go in with a lot more people from the start, and that they've since been wasting time and resources and lives in Iraq, which represented no threat to us whatsoever, rather than doing the job right in Afghanistan.

[Valmore]

I care if a soldier dies. But they aren't fighting to protect us in Iraq. I don't even know what the heck Iraq is about anymore, aside from the Bush Administration not wanting to admit they were wrong and stupid to invade Iraq on really bad intel the Clinton Administration deemed as really bad intel.