Webb versus Bush - This could be very fun

[Hoss]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/28/AR2006112801582.html

At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia's newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn't long before Bush found him.

"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.

Could be that Webb is really a man with deep convictions who isn't interested in politics aside from passing the agenda he promised during the campaign. Either way, I thought it was interesting the way this conversation went down. I think Bush is going to have to get used to people not dealing with him on his own terms.

[Tages]

Honestly, Bush seems to me like the kind of person whose worldview is so schizophrenic he can honestly, genuinely care about Webb's son and at the same time have no problem keeping him in harm's way for no reason whatsoever.

Hey, if he gets shot, these things happen in war. As for wars, those just happen too...

[Winslow]

Honestly, Bush seems to me like the kind of person whose worldview is so schizophrenic he can honestly, genuinely care about Webb's son and at the same time have no problem keeping him in harm's way for no reason whatsoever.

Hey, if he gets shot, these things happen in war. As for wars, those just happen too...

The schizophrenia isn't so much that disconnect, but that Bush sincerely believes he is defending liberal free democracy from extinction by waging war in Iraq. Which just doesn't seem grounded in reality at all.

So in his view, there is no incompatability.

The comparisons between the threat of terrorists and Nazi Germany are just bizarre.

EDIT: I think Webb was rude. Not sure I know when policy becomes so perverted that being rude is justified . . . but I'm not sure "I'm there" yet.

[Dreadstar]

EDIT: I think Webb was rude. Not sure I know when policy becomes so perverted that being rude is justified . . . but I'm not sure "I'm there" yet.

I agree that his response to small talk was a bit rude, but BUsh's response :

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

...might have earned him a punch in the mouth from me. I think that was a bit ruder, ESPECIALLY since it's obvious that Bush *knew* his son was in Iraq. It's almost *imperious.*

[Winslow]

I agree that his response to small talk was a bit rude, but BUsh's response :

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

...might have earned him a punch in the mouth from me. I think that was a bit ruder, ESPECIALLY since it's obvious that Bush *knew* his son was in Iraq. It's almost *imperious.*

Interesting . . . I see your point, but I interpreted it differently.

That is, Bush sees Webb's son as an American hero and was concerned about him.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

EDIT: I think Webb was rude. Not sure I know when policy becomes so perverted that being rude is justified . . . but I'm not sure "I'm there" yet.

When your son has his life his on the line in another country for no good reason, and the man responsible is standing in front of you?

I'd say being rude is an acceptable behaviour.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Interesting . . . I see your point, but I interpreted it differently.

That is, Bush sees Webb's son as an American hero and was concerned about him.

An awkward situation for Bush.
The place obviously was crawling with reporters, so if he didn't talk to Webb, he'd been upstaged, and if he did, he couldn't win, because what can you say to a man who's sons fighting the war you started?

He was facing (anthor) PR disaster whatever he did.

[Nick Soapdish]

I agree that his response to small talk was a bit rude, but BUsh's response :

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

...might have earned him a punch in the mouth from me. I think that was a bit ruder, ESPECIALLY since it's obvious that Bush *knew* his son was in Iraq. It's almost *imperious.*

One of the other accounts (http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/UndertheDome/112906.html) also interpreted it that way. Interesting how switching the word from "said" to "retorted" makes things sound a lot more heated.

I'm not familiar with The Hill at all or its leanings, although it says it's a newspaper about Congress, not the federal government so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that it might be a bit biased that way.

[Winslow]

When your son has his life his on the line in another country for no good reason, and the man responsible is standing in front of you?

I'd say being rude is an acceptable behaviour.

Point.

And he also tried to avoid him, to avoid the confrontation, which was in a sense polite.

[Mothmonsterman]

When your son has his life his on the line in another country for no good reason, and the man responsible is standing in front of you?

The man responsible for Webb's son is Webb's son. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the United States still utilizes a 100% volunteer army. Until Rangel gets his way, at least.

[dingo]

The man responsible for Webb's son is Webb's son. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the United States still utilizes a 100% volunteer army. Until Rangel gets his way, at least.

Sort of.

If an honourable man signs up to defend his country, and finds himself in a situation where (arguably) his country is an agressor, then he is in an unforseen situation that he will not easily be able to get out of.

Cowardice is not an option for some people. In that light, it is Bush's fault.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Point.

And he also tried to avoid him, to avoid the confrontation, which was in a sense polite.

Actually, there's a good chance if it was noticable that he was avoiding Bush that was playing the press.

[Justin Davis]

I agree that his response to small talk was a bit rude, but BUsh's response :

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

...might have earned him a punch in the mouth from me. I think that was a bit ruder, ESPECIALLY since it's obvious that Bush *knew* his son was in Iraq. It's almost *imperious.*

Which is interesting because something left out of the article and that I've heard from random radio talk shows is that Webb later said he felt like punching Bush in the mouth when he asked that question.

Honestly, no matter how stupid the move was, I do think Bush asked Webb about his son out of genuine concern. Then, he got offended when Webb did not respond with appreciation for Bush's concern. Was Webb's first response about wanting to bring the troops home the most soothing answer? No, but it wasn't outrageous or offensive either, and I can think of about five different ways Bush could've responded without the situation escalating further.

Personally, I'm glad to see some animosity when it comes to things like this in Washington because it finally shows a level of passion that's been missing from quite a few politicians for a good long while.

[Typo Lad]

I actually respect this guy.

[Mac Danny]

I like him already.. When can we elect him King and all that?

A no BS politician who doesn't suffer fools? No way!

[Hoss]

I actually respect this guy.


Kind of like an uncompromised, unwhorish version of McCain.

[Sean Walsh]

Could be that Webb is really a man with deep convictions who isn't interested in politics aside from passing the agenda he promised during the campaign.

No, he just seems like a prick.

If Bill Clinton came to shake my hand, I'd friggin' shake it even though I think he's an unfaithful womanizing liar. Because it's the polite thing to do.

And who's "them"? Is Mr. Webb's son a Siamese twin? Because Dubya asked him how his son (singular tense, mind you) was and he responded in the plural form...

Oh geez, of course! Mr. Webb was referring to the troops in general and thus shows has an agenda and had to get it out there.

Yeah, real convictions.

A punch would've actually made more sense to display his convictions.

[Typo Lad]

I'm not shaking Clinton's hand.

I'm pretty sure I know where it's been.

[Drew Van T.]

If Bill Clinton came to shake my hand, I'd friggin' shake it even though I think he's an unfaithful womanizing liar. Because it's the polite thing to do.

Well, if you had spent the previous year campaigning to convince people - or otherwise promoting the idea in various ways - that "Bill Clinton is unfaithful womanizing liar", then Clinton would never come up to shake your hand in the first place, now would he?

Bush wanted simply to separate the political from the personal here, because he's in trouble with the former and thinks he can always fall back on the latter. Webb refused to cooperate, is all.

[Hoss]

[QUOTE=Sean Walsh]

No, he just seems like a prick.

If Bill Clinton came to shake my hand, I'd friggin' shake it even though I think he's an unfaithful womanizing liar. Because it's the polite thing to do.

A) Did Webb refuse to shake his hand?

B) How does Clinton's womanizing affect your life in the least. Did he sleep with your daughter?

C) Do you believe it is all right to judge a person harshly, annouce it to the world as you just did about Clinton, but then pretend everything is all right when you meet them?


Yeah, real convictions.

A punch would've actually made more sense to display his convictions.

Of course he had an agenda. He ran on it. So by your estimation a US Senator taking the opportunity to address an issue with the POTUS shows a lack of convictions? Tell me, how many more chances do you think that the freshman democrat Senator that helped cost the Republicans the senate was going to get to speak with the POTUS?

Do you know that Webb wore his sons combat boots every day on the campaign trail to remind him of why he was running? If you didn't you can be darned sure that Bush did because it was mentioned in just about every story about Webb over the last 6 months. For Bush to come up to him and ask about his son was an insult and a power game. Webb called him on it.

[Adam Crocker]

No, he just seems like a prick.

If Bill Clinton came to shake my hand, I'd friggin' shake it even though I think he's an unfaithful womanizing liar. Because it's the polite thing to do.

[...]

Oh geez, of course! Mr. Webb was referring to the troops in general and thus shows has an agenda and had to get it out there.

Yeah, real convictions.

You make it sound like his desire to get the troops out of Iraq is something underhanded, as opposed to a point of principle that he's already put out in public on the campaign trail. All this shows is that he's willing to stick to his campaign platform. And insincere as opposed to the Bush showing concern for Webb's son when he has put thousands of troops needlessly in harm's way?

And as for treating Bush II with contempt, so what? He lost all claim to politeness or respect long ago. Frankly I'm happy to see a politician publically stand up to the sonuvabitch and do it to his face.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Good for Webb. Trying to not be too partisan is one thing, but being all chummy with someone you treated as a mortal enemy a few weeks earlier is another. It was kind of disgusting a few weeks back, watching Pelosi and Bush acting all chummy, when a couple weeks ago he'd been calling her everything but a traitor and a dumb whore, and she'd been calling him incompetent and everything short of retarded.

Besides, Bush deserves more in the way of actual, overt enemies.

[Christopher O]

If Bill Clinton came to shake my hand, I'd friggin' shake it even though I think he's an unfaithful womanizing liar. Because it's the polite thing to do.
Why bother bringing this up? Even as an example, it's petty and tired. Seriously, you're measuring Bill Clinton's private life against the clusterfuck that is the Bush Administration and the clusterfuck that is Iraq because of the Bush Adminiastration. Again, even as an example, it's played.

[Sean Walsh]

If Webb was in a meeting with him and he did something like this......fine. It's a political matter being addressed in a political setting.

This was a reception for the new group of senators being held by the White House. There's a time and place for this kinda stuff - this wasn't it. When someone throws a party and invites you, you either don't show up or do and be polite.

Bush asks a genuine question (is is ok to give him the benefit of any doubt or is that a no-no?) and he gets a personal *and* political bitch-slap in front of reporters.

Being "chummy" and being "polite", IMHO, are not the same thing.

And hey, if a Republican senator did this to a Democratic president, I'd have a problem with that too in the same regards.

Politeness used to mean something, I think. Clearly it's a dead concept. Now we all hate each other.

Oh well.

[Sean Walsh]

Why bother bringing this up? Even as an example, it's petty and tired. Seriously, you're measuring Bill Clinton's private life against the clusterfuck that is the Bush Administration and the clusterfuck that is Iraq because of the Bush Adminiastration. Again, even as an example, it's played.

I was merely doing what a lot of folks around here don't do - showin' hate for the other side.

Too much one-sided complain' around here - gotta be fair and keep that balance kinda equal, or else we all tumble off the scales and hurt ourselves! Then who'd we sue?!

Besides, this is all being done in a comic book site. "Play" and "comics" go well together, don't they?

[Hoss]

Bush asks a genuine question (is is ok to give him the benefit of any doubt or is that a no-no?) and he gets a personal *and* political bitch-slap in front of reporters.


Well, the point here isn't whether we give Bush the benefit of the doubt or not. It is whether Webb gave him the benefit of the doubt or not. Again, you'd have to willfully disregard Webb's entire campaign and how Webb's son was the symbol for Webb's oppossition for Bush's handling of the war to take Bush asking "How's your son?" as being perfectly innocent and genuine.

Seriously, Webb wore his son's boots every day for months to remind him of why he wanted to come to Washington and oppose Bush's handling of this war. Bush obviously knew about it because he knew to ask about his son.

And let's not pretend that Bush didn't get snotty in return. His reply to Webb saying ""I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," was "That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

I always find it interesting when people defending Bush place some sort of "rules" on political engagement. As if being polite to someone's face while your operatives destroy them in the press is somehow more moral than facing someone man to man and calling them out.

[Hoss]

Politeness used to mean something, I think. Clearly it's a dead concept. Now we all hate each other.

Oh well.

Being a man and only saying and doing something to someone's face and not behind their back is a much more important principle than faked societal politeness. And Webb was civil and addressed Bush by his proper title. From what I've read of the way the founding father's discussed things in private parties and in public, they were never one's to mince words with each other. Of course, they were also men enough to handle being civilly questioned on their viewpoints and decisions. I hope that is not a dead concept in Washington anymore.

[Sean Walsh]

And let's not pretend that Bush didn't get snotty in return. His reply to Webb saying ""I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," was "That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

You throw a party for someone, then see them and ask "Hey, having a good time?" even though the history between you 2 is shaky and can get quite mean and your friends/associates have talked smack about him in the past.

And they say "F*ck you."

Is it snotty for you to re-ask the question that wasn't answered in the first place? Or just move on to someone else and look ignorant? Kick him out and look petty? Punch him in the head and start a White House smackdown?

I'm pretty sure, though, that whatever else he did would've still been argued about. Because he's Bush.

I always find it interesting when people defending Bush place some sort of "rules" on political engagement. As if being polite to someone's face while your operatives destroy them in the press is somehow more moral than facing someone man to man and calling them out.

There's gotta be an on/off switch for this crap, though.

If people are political all the time, there'd be a lot more corpses in Washington DC.

...that WOULD make the news more fun, though... :p

[Hoss]

You throw a party for someone, then see them and ask "Hey, having a good time?" even though the history between you 2 is shaky and can get quite mean and your friends/associates have talked smack about him in the past.

And they say "F*ck you."

Is it snotty for you to re-ask the question that wasn't answered in the first place? Or just move on to someone else and look ignorant? Kick him out and look petty? Punch him in the head and start a White House smackdown?

I'm pretty sure, though, that whatever else he did would've still been argued about. Because he's Bush.p


Um except that isn't what happend at all. Not even close. You are describing a situation in which their isn't already an adversirial relationship, in which the question asked did not touch on a touchy subject and you are also describing a profanity filled remark.

Again, go back and read about some of the dinner parties the founding fathers had. None of them would have expected to invite a politicial foe over, ask them about an issue that was at the center of one of their disputes and expect anything but an honest answer.

[Hoss]

There's gotta be an on/off switch for this crap, though.

If people are political all the time, there'd be a lot more corpses in Washington DC.

...that WOULD make the news more fun, though... :p


Actually, if all politicians were more like Webb and only said and sanctioned the saying of things about each other that that they would have the guts to say face to face, it would be a much more civil situation.

Say what you want about Cheney, at least he'll tell you to "f-yourself" to your face instead of having Karl Rove hire a firm to do a push poll asking people "What would you say if you knew Politician A likes to f-himself?"

[Dreadstar]

Sean, I don't agree with you here and I think you're reaching, but defending Bush to this crowd is like waving a red flag at a bull.

[Adam Crocker]

You throw a party for someone, then see them and ask "Hey, having a good time?" even though the history between you 2 is shaky and can get quite mean and your friends/associates have talked smack about him in the past.

And they say "F*ck you."

Webb deliberately avoided Bush throughout the reception and Bush himself deliberately sought Webb out. They didn't just bump into each other.

And it wasn't even close to saying "fuck you." Webb merely restated his position on Iraq, which is connected to his son, and brushed aside Bush's hollow show of concern. All Webb was doing is showing is that he's going to stand by his campaign promises and that he isn't going to play Bush's game.

[Rob on the Job]

Webb has every right to confront the president.

And Bush has every right to make Webb squirm .

That's life in 21st-century America.

Everyone has to be on stage.

[Adam Crocker]

Webb has every right to confront the president.

And Bush has every right to make Webb squirm.

He made him squirm? How? :confused:

[JeffreyWKramer]

If people are political all the time, there'd be a lot more corpses in Washington DC.

If it's politicians killing politicians, I fail to see how this would be a bad thing.

[Phrozen]

Webb deliberately avoided Bush throughout the reception and Bush himself deliberately sought Webb out. They didn't just bump into each other.

And it wasn't even close to saying "fuck you." Webb merely restated his position on Iraq, which is connected to his son, and brushed aside Bush's hollow show of concern. All Webb was doing is showing is that he's going to stand by his campaign promises and that he isn't going to play Bush's game.

Yes but the thing is, the reception was not required. It was a meet and greet. If Webb didn't want to be seen with or talk to Bush the solution is simple. Don't fucking go. He didn't have to go. He could of stayed home and no one would of cared. Webb went and considering the function of the event he shouldn't be surprised when Bush sought him out. Webb is either very stupid or was politically grandstanding and this smells of political grandstanding.

[Drew Van T.]

It was a meet and greet. If Webb didn't want to be seen with or talk to Bush the solution is simple. Don't fucking go. He didn't have to go.

Maybe he wanted to meet and greet all the other people who were there. Bush is just one guy and not worth staying home for... :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

Webb is either very stupid or was politically grandstanding and this smells of political grandstanding.

And of course Bush would never lower himself to political grandstanding.

[Rob on the Job]

He made him squirm? How? :confused:

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

By "squirm," I meant "bringing out Webb's poor manners," e.g., replying coldly.

[Winslow]

Maybe he wanted to meet and greet all the other people who were there. Bush is just one guy and not worth staying home for... :D

It was a Presidential reception . . .

[Paul McEnery]

Yes but the thing is, the reception was not required. It was a meet and greet. If Webb didn't want to be seen with or talk to Bush the solution is simple. Don't fucking go. He didn't have to go. He could of stayed home and no one would of cared. Webb went and considering the function of the event he shouldn't be surprised when Bush sought him out. Webb is either very stupid or was politically grandstanding and this smells of political grandstanding.
For that matter, even if it were (and it wasn't, it was Bush who was grandstanding), what's wrong with that.

The Iraq report just came out. Says the same thing as Webb. Bring the boys (and girls) home. And what does numbnuts say: hell no, they've got to stay in harm's way because I'm pig-headed and don't want to look like a loser.

Webb's boy is in harm's way for the sake of Bush's pride. And I don't reckon that's what he signed up to protect.

[Paul McEnery]

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

By "squirm," I meant "bringing out Webb's poor manners," e.g., replying coldly.
How is that poor manners?

[Adam Crocker]

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

By "squirm," I meant "bringing out Webb's poor manners," e.g., replying coldly.

Doesn't really seem to fit the definition of squirm in an emotional and social sense though...

squirm  /skwɜrm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[skwurm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–verb (used without object)
1. to wriggle or writhe.
2. to feel or display discomfort or distress, as from reproof, embarrassment, pain, etc.: He squirmed under the judge's questioning.

If anything Bush was doing the squirming.

[Drew Van T.]

It was a Presidential reception . . .

And the best presidential receptions are those where this president makes himself scarce, surely?

I mean, he's unpopular. He's the kid at the prom that no one wants to hang around.

[Subotai]

Webb is known for his lack of civility, but this is a guy who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam while Bush was in the Guard banging cheerleaders on 3-day passes and whose son is serving in Iraq in a war Bush declared over before it really began. And people are getting upset? Bush needs a little more forthright feedback. People have been letting him slip by on his down-home bullshit for years.

What a stupid question. "How's your boy?" "Well, Mr. President, he's getting shot at by snipers and trying to avoid MAs until he can come home, but he sure gets a kick out of protecting those Haliburton assets!"

If Bush had the balls, he should have gone up to Webb and apologized for getting his son and the thousands of other sons into this morass, then asked how he was doing.

[Rob on the Job]

... The Iraq report just came out. ....

Actually, you're wrong. It doesn't come out until the middle of next week. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113001344.html)

[Rob on the Job]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.

[Justin Davis]

Sean, I don't agree with you here and I think you're reaching, but defending Bush to this crowd is like waving a red flag at a bull.

Defending Bush to any crowd on this subject should be a like waving a red flag to a bull though. However, some have confused defending Bush with slamming Webb. Annoyingly, that's par for the course. I'm really glad you said "Sean, I don't agree with you here and I think you're reaching" in that post. That's all I want to know. It's when people start digressing too far from the topic at hand that so many conversations become muddled and overly intense.

I also love that we get along so well even though some of your political choices baffle the hell out of me. Hopefully, it works the other way too.

[Adam Crocker]

Webb is known for his lack of civility, but this is a guy who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam while Bush was in the Guard banging cheerleaders on 3-day passes and whose son is serving in Iraq in a war Bush declared over before it really began. And people are getting upset?

Exactly. It's absurd that Webb is being held at fault here.

[Justin Davis]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.

Yeah! Let's string up that Mark Twain fella while we're at it!

[rick]

Truthfully, I suspect that this is one of those conversations where how something was said is more important then what was said.

Both sides seem to agree on what they said and both sides think that the other was being a jerk.

It think that without a soundclip and as far as I know there isn't one, there is just no way to say who was at fault.

I of course lean toward blaming Bush for anything I can, but in this case, all that any of us can really do is either guess or let are idology make the decision for us.

[rick]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.


Yeah the attempt to attack the man for his fiction writing worked so well in the election too.

Maybe he should get together with Lynn Cheney and they can compare notes about what kind of dick would actually try to use their fiction writing against them.

[Rob on the Job]

Maybe he can get together with Lynn Cheney and they can compare notes about what dicks people can be when they try to hold fiction writing against them.

Good point.

I'll do my best to forget whatever crud Webb and Ms. Cheney churned out.

[rick]

Good point.

I'll do my best to forget whatever crud Webb and Ms. Cheney churned out.


That would probably be for the best.

Especially when you obviously haven't read anything by Webb at this point anyway.

[Rob on the Job]

That would probably be for the best.

Especially when you obviously haven't read anything by Webb at this point anyway.

I read "Fields of Fire" when it came out in paperback edition about the time I graduated from college in 1981. It was instantly forgettable. And I never bothered to buy another Webb book.

So forgettable that I left "Fields of Fire" in a storage box throughout a variety of moves for the next quarter-century until the controversy over Webb's writing came in October. I dug out "Fields of Fire" and skimmed through it. And you know what ... ?

It was worse than I remembered.

Perhaps his writing style has matured, but really, "Fields of Fire" was turgid stuff.

[Adam Crocker]

Truthfully, I suspect that this is one of those conversations where how something was said is more important then what was said.

Both sides seem to agree on what they said and both sides think that the other was being a jerk.

Oh, I don't think that Bush was being a jerk. In some ways I think that Webb was being a bit of jerk, though in a less burusque and more refined way than saying "fuck you."

However, in light of Bush's Iraq policy, I think he got exactly what he deserved and Webb was right to respond to him in the manner that he did.

[Fenris]

When two politicians are in front of the media, I pretty much take it for granted that everything they do is calculated and tactical.

As Phrozen said: if you don't want to meet Bush, why would you go to a White House reception in the first place? These are not casual social encounters, on either side.

Bush's message: "Look how caring I am! I'm reaching out to my political opponents for the troops' sake!"

Webb's message: "Look how tough I am! I'm snubbing Bush on his own territory!"

I don't credit either one very much; because both messages are the kind of thing that politicians will naturally promote, no matter what their actual feelings are.

õ
But maybe they're more persuasive in person!

[Fenris]

If it's politicians killing politicians, I fail to see how this would be a bad thing.

Or as Chesterton put it:

The men that worked for England
They have their graves at home:
And birds and bees of England
About the cross can roam.

But they that fought for England,
Following a falling star,
Alas, alas for England
They have their graves afar.

And they that rule in England,
In stately conclave met,
Alas, alas for England
They have no graves as yet.

õ
Different country, same idea!

[Magneto_X]

Why bother bringing this up? Even as an example, it's petty and tired. Seriously, you're measuring Bill Clinton's private life against the clusterfuck that is the Bush Administration and the clusterfuck that is Iraq because of the Bush Adminiastration. Again, even as an example, it's played.

Everything wrong is Clinton's fault. ;)

Edit:

Thumbs up to Webb. I'd definitely vote for him if he was the Dem presidential nominee from this.

[Magneto_X]

Webb is known for his lack of civility, but this is a guy who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam while Bush was in the Guard banging cheerleaders on 3-day passes and whose son is serving in Iraq in a war Bush declared over before it really began. And people are getting upset? Bush needs a little more forthright feedback. People have been letting him slip by on his down-home bullshit for years.

Agreed.

Since you bought up cheerleaders----Bush Jr. *was* one in high school IIRC. :eek:

What a stupid question. "How's your boy?" "Well, Mr. President, he's getting shot at by snipers and trying to avoid MAs until he can come home, but he sure gets a kick out of protecting those Haliburton assets!"

That would have been awesome!

If Bush had the balls, he should have gone up to Webb and apologized for getting his son and the thousands of other sons into this morass, then asked how he was doing.

Never would have happened. Bush Jr. never apologises to *anybody*. Ever! One of the reasons I don't like him. He's not humble at all.

[Magneto_X]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.

Maybe Bush Jr. can show Webb how many businesses he failed with, give him some photos of videos of himself as a cheerleader and answer why he was AWOL in the Vietnam war.

[rick]

I read "Fields of Fire" when it came out in paperback edition about the time I graduated from college in 1981. It was instantly forgettable. And I never bothered to buy another Webb book.

So forgettable that I left "Fields of Fire" in a storage box throughout a variety of moves for the next quarter-century until the controversy over Webb's writing came in October. I dug out "Fields of Fire" and skimmed through it. And you know what ... ?

It was worse than I remembered.

Perhaps his writing style has matured, but really, "Fields of Fire" was turgid stuff.


Honestly, he is a dry and not very interesting writer.

However he isn't the dengenerate pornographer the Republicans seem to want to portray him as.


His books would read better if he was.

[Valmore]

Exactly. It's absurd that Webb is being held at fault here.

Why is it absurd? It's absurd that Webb couldn't say something like, "He's fine."

If someone asks me how my daughter is doing, I don't say, "I think we need to fund the schools more."

It was a stupid reply to a small talk question.

[Gingold]

I'm all for politeness in most circumstances, but I'd have a hard time being polite to Bush, and I don't have a kid in Iraq. Screw him.

[Adam Crocker]

Why is it absurd? It's absurd that Webb couldn't say something like, "He's fine."

If someone asks me how my daughter is doing, I don't say, "I think we need to fund the schools more."

Considering the context in which the discussion occurred I'm not sure I see your comparison.

[Drew Van T.]

In summary, Webb was acting the way the average American voter at this point in time would have acted, if invited to the same party, as opposed to the way the average American politician would have acted. An unusual display.

[Valmore]

Considering the context in which the discussion occurred I'm not sure I see your comparison.

And I don't see how pushing policy during small talk is good context. Especially when someone asks a normal question.

Webb appears to be acting like an ass here. However, I'd need tonal inflection and other things to determine anything.

Was Bush asking a normal question? Or was he being pointed?

That sort of thing.

I'm not one who appreciates rudeness unless it's warranted. Even to George W. Bush.

Something like, "Oh, he's okay. Though he'd be much safer if he were home instead of in Iraq. But hey, so would all of the troops!" probably would have looked a lot better for the man.

[Adam Crocker]

I'm not one who appreciates rudeness unless it's warranted. Even to George W. Bush.

Well I suppose that's where we differ. Bush has gotten over two thousand American troops killed, even more maimed, and has put many more in harm's way due to his own boneheadedness and incompetence. I think we are long past the point of him being deserving some mild rudeness.

[Paul McEnery]

And I don't see how pushing policy during small talk is good context. Especially when someone asks a normal question.
In the first place, there's no way on earth that's a normal question after this campaign (let alone after this war).

In the second place, in what way is making small talk with Bush appropriate.

And in the third place, Bush surrounds himself with yesmen, and is known for being shirty when any of those yeses colours even slightly in the direction of maybe. So not only must we imagine this was in fact rudeness on his part, but that it was more than about time someone told him exactly what Webb did.

[Iangould]

I
Politeness used to mean something, I think. Clearly it's a dead concept. Now we all hate each other.


Did it ever mean asking virtual strangers insensitive overly-personal questions about their immediate family?

"I hope your son is well and I hope he knows I pray for him and all the other boys over in Iraq every day." would have been polite.

I would have been tempted to reply: "He's fine, no thanks to you. How's your daughter's alcohol rehab going? Has your brother Neil gotten that VD under control?"

[Wesley Dodds]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.

"OK, one last time. These are small... but the ones out there are far away. Small... far away..."

[Iangould]

Maybe Webb can patch things up with the president by reading him some of his wonderful writings about incest and underage sex and a father fellating his little boy. Maybe he can sprinkle it with the "N word" as he did in two novels, and refer to Filipinos as "monkey faces" again.

I haven't read the books in question given the eputation for honesty and impartiality you're rapidly establishing for yourself in this venue I have absolutely no doubt that the incest and pedophilia is enthusiastically ensorsed by Webb (because as a self-described former liberal you know we're all about the kiddy-fucking) and also I'm sure the racial slurs are used in the authorial voice rather than appearing in dialog.

In other news, Newt Gingrich's novel "1945" features a German attack on the US mainland, so Newt's obviously a Nazi.

[Corrina]

And I don't see how pushing policy during small talk is good context. Especially when someone asks a normal question.



There is no such thing as 'small talk' when one is a member of Congress invited to the White House for an introduction at which the press is present.

It's a photo op. It's the White House trying to use the trapping of the Presidency to score points off newly elected members of Congress. It's *all* politics, always.

Webb obviously decided that he didn't want to play the small talk or show pony game. Might cost him, might not. But there's no polite or impolite here, everyone is making calculations about how to behave based on what will get you what you need to pass legislation.

[Valmore]

In the first place, there's no way on earth that's a normal question after this campaign (let alone after this war).

In the second place, in what way is making small talk with Bush appropriate.

And in the third place, Bush surrounds himself with yesmen, and is known for being shirty when any of those yeses colours even slightly in the direction of maybe. So not only must we imagine this was in fact rudeness on his part, but that it was more than about time someone told him exactly what Webb did.

Right, Bush was obviously being a bad, bad man by asking someone how their boy is doing. But, like you said, it's just you imagining it.

And no, rudeness is not warranted. Unless it's clear Bush was actually being rude, which may or may not have been the case. We don't have much proof.

So no, I reject your strawman argument of Bush is always a bad, bad man and deserves rudemess.

There is no such thing as 'small talk' when one is a member of Congress invited to the White House for an introduction at which the press is present.

It's a photo op. It's the White House trying to use the trapping of the Presidency to score points off newly elected members of Congress. It's *all* politics, always.

Webb obviously decided that he didn't want to play the small talk or show pony game. Might cost him, might not. But there's no polite or impolite here, everyone is making calculations about how to behave based on what will get you what you need to pass legislation.

So if there's no such thing as small talk, how could Webb decide to not engage in it?

[StoneGold]

Right, Bush was obviously being a bad, bad man by asking someone how their boy is doing. But, like you said, it's just you imagining it.


The way I see it, Bush wasn't being a dick by asking about his son, Webb was being a dick by shoving it Bush's face, but Bush was an even bigger dick by trying to shove it back. Mostly in that there wasn't much Bush could have done, other than to have just ignored the comment and moved on, that wasn't going to make him more of a dick, especially given how Webb campaigned on bringing his son home. Basically, Bush took the bait, but he took it with gusto.

[Adam Crocker]

Right, Bush was obviously being a bad, bad man by asking someone how their boy is doing. But, like you said, it's just you imagining it.


Bush got several thousand people killed in a needless and ill-planned war that he started. It's also ruined a country and put many more people in danger. Jim Webb's son, along with many other American soldiers, is fighting that war. Bush had to the gall to ask him how his son was doing. Social niceties are a priority here WHY?

[Valmore]

The way I see it, Bush wasn't being a dick by asking about his son, Webb was being a dick by shoving it Bush's face, but Bush was an even bigger dick by trying to shove it back. Mostly in that there wasn't much Bush could have done, other than to have just ignored the comment and moved on, that wasn't going to make him more of a dick, especially given how Webb campaigned on bringing his son home. Basically, Bush took the bait, but he took it with gusto.

I think I agree with this.

I don't think Bush was being an ass initially.

Webb responded by being as ass.

Then Bush made a bigger ass of himself.

[Serik]

Bush (and the vast majority of the US congress) got several thousand people killed in a needless and ill-planned war that he started (thanks to authorization from Congress). It's also ruined a country and put many more people in danger. Jim Webb's son, along with many other American soldiers, is fighting that war. Bush had to the gall to ask him how his son was doing. Social niceties are a priority here WHY?

Just cleared some things up in your post.

[Valmore]

Just cleared some things up in your post.

Webb wasn't a part of that Congress.

[Serik]

Did I say he was?

[Valmore]

Did I say he was?

No, but the argument stems over incivility of Bush and Webb towards each other over policy differences. Webb wasn't in office to be a part of Congress that was a part of the vote.

[Adam Crocker]

Just cleared some things up in your post.

I know that, but that's beside my point. Why are people so worked up over being polite to a man who has been coddled all his life, has flagarantly abused his power, put people in harm's way, and got them killed in the process? If someone had done something along Webb's bitch slap earlier in Bush's life, and more frequently the US and Iraq wouldn't have this awful mess on their hands. Social niceties should be secondary in such matters.

[Serik]

I actually think what Webb did was badass and is a breath of fresh air. I'm sick and f'ing tired of Congress coddling up to this incompetent president. Someone needs to tell this president like it is. And there's no better person to do it than a Nam hero who has a son fighting in Iraq right now.

[Valmore]

I know that, but that's beside my point. Why are people so worked up over being polite to a man who has been coddled all his life, has flagarantly abused his power, put people in harm's way, and got them killed in the process? If someone had done something along Webb's bitch slap earlier in Bush's life, and more frequently the US and Iraq wouldn't have this awful mess on their hands. Social niceties should be secondary in such matters.

Just because I want to tell a whole lot of people what I think of them and where they can shove their own heads, it doesn't mean I should do it. Because, in general, it's good to be polite.

[Adam Crocker]

I realize that, but I'm pointing out how Adam isn't blaming the US Congress for the Iraq debacle. Instead, he focuses solely on the president. Mr. Bush...

Oh for god sake's, I explained this already. I'm focusing on Bush here because he's the subject of whether or not Webb's response was appropriate. I'm pointing out that given who Webb was talking to, yes his response was all-too appropriate. The tally of responsibility for this war isn't really what's at issue here so much as how Bush's share of the responsibility for the war merited the response he got. (Which is damn mild too.)

[Valmore]

Oh for god sake's, I explained this already. I'm focusing on Bush here because he's the subject of whether or not Webb's response was appropriate. I'm pointing out that given who Webb was talking to, yes his response was all-too appropriate. The tally of responsibility for this war isn't really what's at issue here so much as how Bush's share of the responsibility for the war merited the response he got. (Which is damn mild too.)

But how will he respond when John Kerry or Hillary Clinton asks him how his boy is doing?

[rick]

But how will he respond when John Kerry or Hillary Clinton asks him how his boy is doing?

I would suspect that he would be somewhat friendlier to them.

One thing that I hope Bush supporters will keep in mind, and I honestly am not trying to insult him here, is that to quite a few people the Presidents personality does come across badly.


For all I know the man had only the best intentions, but he has some real problems with how he presents himself.

For example, when in a tense situation the President tends to smirk.

I’m pretty sure that this is not intentional, but it still is a bad piece of body English to be showing when trying to appear serious or sympathetic. I have this kid who works for me who had this problem where any time he had to give a customer bad news or just say no to a student, he would let out this short nervous laugh.

Customers hated this guy because this nervous tick was coming across as obnoxious and arrogant, even when the kid didn’t mean anything by it.

Also, like it or not, the family Bush as from time to time shown a bit of an imperious attitude and the President definitely can be guilty of this on occasion. In his favor I have to say that we never got too much of this from the senior, and this seems to come from Barbs side.

Also, Bush is an “in your face” type of guy.

One of his few graces is that he is normally pretty willing to let you know if he doesn’t like you, and he can be pretty terse about it while doing so.

Obviously, even if “unjust”, these kind of presentation problems just do not work in the Presidents favor.

Now like I said I have no idea how either of these men sounded when they spoke.

As I wrote before, what they said on paper is not that offensive, although the Bush blurt at the end sounds bad.

What they said is the kind of thing that can be taken in several ways depending on how it was said.


Add to that the fact that Webb left the Republican Party because of his dislike of Bush and hatred of the war, and the fact that no matter how many others are to blame for the way the war went, Webb as a father chooses to hold Bush as CIC responsible for putting his son in danger, it isn’t a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that Webb was spoiling for a fight with the President.

Without a soundclip we simply will never know.

[Valmore]

Well said, rick. I find myself agreeing with you on all those points.

Now I wish we had a soundclip. Or better - a videoclip. Then we could see facial expressions as words were said.

[Adam Crocker]

Just because I want to tell a whole lot of people what I think of them and where they can shove their own heads, it doesn't mean I should do it. Because, in general, it's good to be polite.

Yes in general it is, but I've stated Bush's actions which are virtually criminal, in essence if not in legality. I don't see why anyone is obligated to be polite to Bush or anyone of his ilk.

And his showing concern for the people he wilfully and negligently put in danger strikes me as pretty hollow.

But how will he respond when John Kerry or Hillary Clinton asks him how his boy is doing?

Realistically speaking, he'll probably be friendlier since they are from the same party and hold leadership positions.

Ideally, in much the same manner with Clinton who's position is much the same as Bush's. With Kerry it's slightly dicier matter since he too has called for troop withdrawal. (http://www.johnkerry.com/initiatives/kerry_feingold/) (Granted this only what I was able to scrounge up so far and at this late hour.) Then there's the fact that Webb wrote an articel for USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-02-18-veterans-edit_x.htm) criticizing both Kerry and Bush. And while it largely dealt with Kerry's involvement in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, he ended it by criticizing Kerry for not stating how his strategy for handling the war would differ from that of G.W.'s.

[Serik]

It's refreshing to see a man of conviction in the halls of Congress. Though like you said, it wouldn't be in the Freshman Senator's best interest to attack Sen. Clinton and Sen. Kerry like he would President Bush. But that's just the nature of politics...

[Paul McEnery]

The way I see it, Bush wasn't being a dick by asking about his son, Webb was being a dick by shoving it Bush's face, but Bush was an even bigger dick by trying to shove it back. Mostly in that there wasn't much Bush could have done, other than to have just ignored the comment and moved on, that wasn't going to make him more of a dick, especially given how Webb campaigned on bringing his son home. Basically, Bush took the bait, but he took it with gusto.
While everyone else is getting all het up:

*applauds*

100% correct.

[Paul McEnery]

I would suspect that he would be somewhat friendlier to them.

One thing that I hope Bush supporters will keep in mind, and I honestly am not trying to insult him here, is that to quite a few people the Presidents personality does come across badly.


For all I know the man had only the best intentions, but he has some real problems with how he presents himself.

For example, when in a tense situation the President tends to smirk.

I’m pretty sure that this is not intentional, but it still is a bad piece of body English to be showing when trying to appear serious or sympathetic. I have this kid who works for me who had this problem where any time he had to give a customer bad news or just say no to a student, he would let out this short nervous laugh.

Customers hated this guy because this nervous tick was coming across as obnoxious and arrogant, even when the kid didn’t mean anything by it.

Also, like it or not, the family Bush as from time to time shown a bit of an imperious attitude and the President definitely can be guilty of this on occasion. In his favor I have to say that we never got too much of this from the senior, and this seems to come from Barbs side.

Also, Bush is an “in your face” type of guy.

One of his few graces is that he is normally pretty willing to let you know if he doesn’t like you, and he can be pretty terse about it while doing so.

Obviously, even if “unjust”, these kind of presentation problems just do not work in the Presidents favor.

Now like I said I have no idea how either of these men sounded when they spoke.

As I wrote before, what they said on paper is not that offensive, although the Bush blurt at the end sounds bad.

What they said is the kind of thing that can be taken in several ways depending on how it was said.


Add to that the fact that Webb left the Republican Party because of his dislike of Bush and hatred of the war, and the fact that no matter how many others are to blame for the way the war went, Webb as a father chooses to hold Bush as CIC responsible for putting his son in danger, it isn’t a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that Webb was spoiling for a fight with the President.

Without a soundclip we simply will never know.
And while I'm at it:

That was hecka solid, too.

[lucasb]

Why is it absurd? It's absurd that Webb couldn't say something like, "He's fine."

If someone asks me how my daughter is doing, I don't say, "I think we need to fund the schools more."

It was a stupid reply to a small talk question.

Well--suppose the person asking had been responsible for massive cuts in education, that resulted in your daughter now being in a rat-infested slum school where teachers are worthless and students are routinely murdered?

NOW would you still be polite?

[StoneGold]

While everyone else is getting all het up:

*applauds*

100% correct.
The real question here is Webb some kind of Machiavellian genius managing to trap Bush in a fairly nasty verbal gaffe, or was he just lucky? Because if the dems were nasty enough and knew how to play this right, this could be there version of the Kerry remark from a few weeks ago.


Either way, having the balls to politically cockblock the president doesn't necessarily give Webb a free pass in my book. OK, the man is hardcore, but most of his politics don't really follow mine, from what I've read. I think. It's been a while. And I don't live in Virginia, so I only cared so much. But I seem to recall he had virtually the same politics as Allen, except minus the apparent senile dementia that had Allen saying all those things, and a different opinion on the war.

[Hoss]

Well said, rick. I find myself agreeing with you on all those points.

Now I wish we had a soundclip. Or better - a videoclip. Then we could see facial expressions as words were said.


The boots. Every day of this campaign Webb wore his son's boots as a reminder of why he was running. Webb campaigned as one of the parents of Iraq war soldiers that felt betrayed by Bush.

Bush knew this. Webb literally ran in the closest Senate race in an election which cost Bush his majority. Bush's closest ally was the GOP's play caller during this election. Webb and Bush aren't just regular guys - they are alpha males players in one of the highest stake political arenas in the world.

So, when Bush came up to Webb, he knew exactly what he was doing when he brought up his son. We might not have the clip, but I can't see how Bush's attitude would have made a difference. He went straight for a piece of conversation that was at the crux of the political conflict between him and Webb. Actually, it was about one of the very few topics that could have brought up that at that point that could not be considered small talk. Bush could have said to him, "I hope we can work together on Medicare Part B" and it could have been small talk. But bringing up Webb's son during their first meeting after the campaing and right after one of the bloodiest months for US soldiers in the war is in no way an innocent bit of small talk.

[rick]

The boots. Every day of this campaign Webb wore his son's boots as a reminder of why he was running. Webb campaigned as one of the parents of Iraq war soldiers that felt betrayed by Bush.

Bush knew this. Webb literally ran in the closest Senate race in an election which cost Bush his majority. Bush's closest ally was the GOP's play caller during this election. Webb and Bush aren't just regular guys - they are alpha males players in one of the highest stake political arenas in the world.

So, when Bush came up to Webb, he knew exactly what he was doing when he brought up his son. We might not have the clip, but I can't see how Bush's attitude would have made a difference. He went straight for a piece of conversation that was at the crux of the political conflict between him and Webb. Actually, it was about one of the very few topics that could have brought up that at that point that could not be considered small talk. Bush could have said to him, "I hope we can work together on Medicare Part B" and it could have been small talk. But bringing up Webb's son during their first meeting after the campaing and right after one of the bloodiest months for US soldiers in the war is in no way an innocent bit of small talk.



See Hoss, I really don't agree with you here.

I honestly think that Bush was actually trying in his rather inept way to make nice with Webb at a social function.

I also truly believe that there was nothing wrong with Webbs response.

Bush's counter on the other hand was pretty harsh.

Still, this is a conversation that really hinges on how things were said.

Without a soundclip all any of us can do is guess and project our own emotions to the conversation.

[Hoss]

I honestly think that Bush was actually trying in his rather inept way to make nice with Webb at a social function.
.


Even Bush isn't this much of an idiot. This is basically the one wrong topic for him to bring up. At best, I'd say that Bush is so used to playing power games with people that he spoke without thinking.

But to ask this question and not expect some sort of honest reply is a form of bullying. It is a way of forcing Webb to talk about his son in a nice, polite way with Bush. You are enough of an alpha male to know that any such conversation between Bush and a political opponent always has the undercurrent of being a battle for supremacy.

Bush strikes me as the type who is always looking to establish a strong pecking order in whatever room he is in. How could you not believe that his first conversation with Webb would not have some sort of undercurrent? Nothing that I have ever read about the way GW treats other politicians makes me think otherwise.

[rick]

Bush strikes me as the type who is always looking to establish a strong pecking order in whatever room he is in. How could you not believe that his first conversation with Webb would not have some sort of undercurrent? Nothing that I have ever read about the way GW treats other politicians makes me think otherwise.


Hey don't get me wrong, Bush is as big a swinging dick as I've ever seen.

I just hate to jump to conclusions based on limited evidence.

Even with the Shrub.

[Ray R.]

Hey, George, how's your kids?

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=nation_world&id=4800480

Must be nice to have week-long party junkets in South American countries, instead of serving your country under hostile fire.

[Nate Grey]

Hey, George, how's your kids?

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=nation_world&id=4800480

Must be nice to have week-long party junkets in South American countries, instead of serving your country under hostile fire.

"Thursday night, an ABC News producer was able to walk into their hotel unchecked and engage Barbara Bush in conversation while she checked her e-mail on a computer in the lobby."

Umm...that's not good...shouldn't they have some sort of security or secret service or something so just anyone can't come walking in like that?

[Ray R.]

"Thursday night, an ABC News producer was able to walk into their hotel unchecked and engage Barbara Bush in conversation while she checked her e-mail on a computer in the lobby."

Umm...that's not good...shouldn't they have some sort of security or secret service or something so just anyone can't come walking in like that?

Barbara also apparently got her purse stolen in some open-air restaurant right under their noses as well. Guess the girls get the JV Secret Service squad, not the varsity.

[Typo Lad]

Maybe they figure if mom and the kids get wacked, they'll get some sympathy?

[Justin Davis]

Even Bush isn't this much of an idiot. This is basically the one wrong topic for him to bring up. At best, I'd say that Bush is so used to playing power games with people that he spoke without thinking.

But to ask this question and not expect some sort of honest reply is a form of bullying.

Bush did expect an honest answer. However, he didn't expect the honest answer he received.

If Webb would've said, "He's doing well, but he's still having a rough time over there," that could have been an honest answer too. At least, honest in the sense that it has the basic facts right. Webb's answer had a different level of honesty. One that portrayed his personal feelings toward Bush instead of an explanation about his son's well-being. It would even have been possible to combine the types of honesty, but Webb didn't. That's fine. There's definitely something admirable about that. Thinking that Bush asked Webb about his son out of some decisive, political move gives Bush motivations that I don't think he has.

I believe Bush asked Webb about his son out of legitimate concern, but that still doesn't make it an appropriate question for him to ask.

[Justin Davis]

"Thursday night, an ABC News producer was able to walk into their hotel unchecked and engage Barbara Bush in conversation while she checked her e-mail on a computer in the lobby."

Umm...that's not good...shouldn't they have some sort of security or secret service or something so just anyone can't come walking in like that?

My question when I see that is why is she checking her email on a computer in the lobby? That seems awfully low-rent for an ex-First Lady and mother of the current president.

[Nate Grey]

I'm just gonna assume Bush has sharp shooters stragetically hidden everywhere to protect his family!

[Ray R.]

My question when I see that is why is she checking her email on a computer in the lobby? That seems awfully low-rent for an ex-First Lady and mother of the current president.


I think that's the 25-year old daughter named Barbara being referenced, not the grandmom.

Still pretty low-rent in any case.

[Justin Davis]

I think that's the 25-year old daughter named Barbara being referenced, not the grandmom.

Still pretty low-rent in any case.

I wasn't sure, but yeah, the sentiment applies anyway.

[Ray R.]

Bush did expect an honest answer. However, he didn't expect the honest answer he received.

....


I believe Bush asked Webb about his son out of legitimate concern, but that still doesn't make it an appropriate question for him to ask.


I agree 100%. I voted for Webb since I live in Virginia. If my kid was in harm's way, I wouldn't consider it small-talk material, period, no matter if Bush's intentions were benign or malicious or innocuous or deliberate.

Webb spoke off the cuff. I seem to distinctly remember that Dick Cheney told Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont to go fuck himself while on the floor of the U.S. Senate, but there didn't seem to be any bemoanings on the catastrophic loss of politeness and due deference in politics at that time.

Webb deserves a break, and give Bush the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to stir up shit just to "take measure of the man."

[Adam Crocker]

Webb spoke off the cuff. I seem to distinctly remember that Dick Cheney told Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont to go fuck himself while on the floor of the U.S. Senate, but there didn't seem to be any bemoanings on the catastrophic loss of politeness and due deference in politics at that time.

Yeah funny how that works.

[Fenris]

Yeah funny how that works.

Hm? The thread wasn't started by someone complaining about Webb's lack of politeness. It was started by Hoss, who is proud of Webb's aggressive style.

Or rather, he's glad that someone's being aggressive towards Bush. Which is the general sense I get from most of the Webb-supporters here; not that his behavior was good in a general way, but that they're glad to see politicians attacking Bush to his face.


So. Cheney said something rude to Patrick Leahy. Did any of the board's Republicans start a thread about Cheney's comment, cheering him on and exulting that someone finally put Patrick Leahy in his place?


If not, should we have?


õ
I rather hope not!

[Adam Crocker]

Hm? The thread wasn't started by someone complaining about Webb's lack of politeness. It was started by Hoss, who is proud of Webb's aggressive style.

That completely misses the point Fenris. Ray's statement isn't referring to who started the thread. it's the fact that throughout the course of the thread I've heard people complain about Webb's "rudeness" just like I heard various people complain about Kerry saying he was going to "kick ass" on his Presidential Campaign *snicker*. Yet I never saw, not once, similar cries of disappointment over the decline of social standards when Cheney told Patrick Leahy to "go fuck himself" over Lahey's inquiries into how his connection with Halliburton was affecting it's Iraq war contracts. It's more looking askew at whom gets grilled over politeness and who doesn't.

[Fenris]

That completely misses the point Fenris.

Well, that does happen sometimes.

Ray's statement isn't referring to who started the thread. it's the fact that throughout the course of the thread I've heard people complain about Webb's "rudeness" just like I heard various people complain about Kerry saying he was going to "kick ass" on his Presidential Campaign *snicker*. Yet I never saw, not once, similar cries of disappointment over the decline of social standards when Cheney told Patrick Leahy to "go fuck himself" over Lahey's inquiries into how his connection with Halliburton was affecting it's Iraq war contracts. It's more looking askew at whom gets grilled over politeness and who doesn't.

Of course it's askew. It's partisan.

Most Webb supporters don't think that this would be a good way for everyone to act, all the time, to everyone around them. They approve of Webb's actions because they're glad to see someone verbally smack Bush around. They approve because they don't like Bush.

Fair enough. I don't expect you to leap to Bush's defense over a matter of etiquette.

But by the same token: if someone doesn't dislike Bush, and doesn't want to see him taken down a peg, then there's no reason to approve of Webb's actions. In our context, it's nothing more than a case of petty rudeness.

It's not worth getting upset about; but if we're going to talk about it, that's about all we have to say.


I don't believe I was here when the whole Cheney/Leahy episode occurred. Did people post about it? What was the board's reaction, if any?


õ
I miss so much!

[JeffreyWKramer]

So. Cheney said something rude to Patrick Leahy. Did any of the board's Republicans start a thread about Cheney's comment, cheering him on and exulting that someone finally put Patrick Leahy in his place?

Feel free. Especially if Leahy starts implementing policies that cause the nation billions in debt and the lives of 2900 US military personnel.

[Adam Crocker]

I don't believe I was here when the whole Cheney/Leahy episode occurred. Did people post about it? What was the board's reaction, if any?

Just my point, as far as I know there wasn't one nor was it mentioned on another thread when it occurred. In fact I heard about it well after the fact over an MSN conversation I think.

[Alex]

Feel free. Especially if Leahy starts implementing policies that cause the nation billions in debt and the lives of 2900 US military personnel.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Patrick_Leahy.htm
Voted YES on $40 billion per year for limited Medicare prescription drug benefit.
Voted NO on cap foreign aid at only $12.7 billion.
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act.
Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security.
Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25.

Voted NO on $40B in reduced federal overall spending. (Dec 2005)

You got me on the military bit, but he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending.

I don't know jack about the guy, and i couldn't vote for him if i wanted too, but i had to look it up.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Well, what a surprise. The President is even more of a douchebag than I thought he was:

But according to Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA), Bush was told that Webb’s son had a recent brush with death in Iraq (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15990689/site/newsweek/) and was warned to be “extra sensitive” (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/3/202133/415) when talking to the Sen.-elect. ThinkProgress yesterday spoke with Moran’s office and confirmed the congressman’s statement, first reported by hcc in VA (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/3/202133/415):
Not only did Bush know about it, he was specifically briefed on the incident before meeting with Webb, and was cautioned to be extra sensitive in speaking with Webb about his son.
After such a briefing, Bush perhaps shouldn’t have been so surprised about Webb’s unwillingness to chit-chat about his son.

[Ray R.]

Well, what a surprise. The President is even more of a douchebag than I thought he was:

Well, so much for giving the benefit of the doubt on malice and forethought.

[Dreadstar]

Well, so much for giving the benefit of the doubt on malice and forethought.

I don't know, Bush isn't exactly your subtle thinker here. I'd think that, given the briefing, he'd actually think that asking about Webb's son in a very concerned manner (mock or not) would be "extra sensitive." In fact, I can see his handlers afterwards saying: "Didn't you listen to us?" and Bush replying "What the fuck are you talking about, I was *being* sensitive."

Guys, you really do give this guy too much credit in the Machiavelli sense.

[Davideaux]

If Bush knew Webb's son almost got killed, then the right thing for him to do was to ask about the kid's well-being.

Kinda like if someone knows your Grandma is sick, you expect them to ask about her health.

[Iangould]

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Patrick_Leahy.htm
Voted YES on $40 billion per year for limited Medicare prescription drug benefit.
Voted NO on cap foreign aid at only $12.7 billion.
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act.
Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security.
Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25.

Voted NO on $40B in reduced federal overall spending. (Dec 2005)

You got me on the military bit, but he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending.

I don't know jack about the guy, and i couldn't vote for him if i wanted too, but i had to look it up.

You know most of these "vote" claims are partisan bullshit right?

Let's take one example: "Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security."

Not according to Snopes. He voted against a proposed amendment to the Senate Immigration Bill which was intended to remove a clause saying that IF there was a future amnesty and IF illegal immigrants who took part in the amnesty could prove they had paid into social security prior to the amnesty, they could have those payments credited to their social security account.

So basically the measure doesn't "give social security to illegal immigrants" it does encourage them to pay into the social security system on the promise that maybe, somewhere down the track, they might have those payments credited towards the minimum period of contributions they need to make before they qualify for social security.

Care to bet on whether the other claims are any more valid when looked at in detail?

I'm also curious as to how raising the basic wage is going to increase federal spending, I doubt there are many federal employees on $5.00 an hour. (It will however increase federal revenue by pushing some people over the taxable threshold.)

Edited to add link to Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/socialsecurity.asp

Oh and as a point of clarification, both sides pull the crap with misrepresenting votes. So say there's a bill on the floor of the Senate which contains $20 billion in new spending and offsets it with $2 billion in spending cuts. Guess how a vote againdt the bill gets represented? That's right "voted against cutting spending by $2 billion."

[Winslow]

I don't know, Bush isn't exactly your subtle thinker here. I'd think that, given the briefing, he'd actually think that asking about Webb's son in a very concerned manner (mock or not) would be "extra sensitive." In fact, I can see his handlers afterwards saying: "Didn't you listen to us?" and Bush replying "What the fuck are you talking about, I was *being* sensitive."

Guys, you really do give this guy too much credit in the Machiavelli sense.

Heh

Yeah, that was my take on it after reading Doc's link.

Bush was being insensitive by trying to be sensitive.

Given his public gaffes from time to time, that seemed the best interpretation.

[Justin Davis]

I don't know, Bush isn't exactly your subtle thinker here. I'd think that, given the briefing, he'd actually think that asking about Webb's son in a very concerned manner (mock or not) would be "extra sensitive." In fact, I can see his handlers afterwards saying: "Didn't you listen to us?" and Bush replying "What the fuck are you talking about, I was *being* sensitive."

Guys, you really do give this guy too much credit in the Machiavelli sense.

Exactly what I think. I even agree with David to an extent. However, there's still a logical chain of thoughts Webb might have that I can understand why he wouldn't want to speak to Bush. Most likely, friends of Webb have asked him the same question about his son that Bush did, and Webb probably gave them much different answers because he doesn't think they're at fault, partially or wholly, for his son being in Iraq.

If anything, I think this small incident has shown more about Bush than we've seen over the last few years. Besides having a disconnect between his "business side" and his "personal side," I also think this shows that he really does still think this war is a good thing and that the end will justify the means (or the few can be sacrificed for the many, whichever), no matter what else happens. To him, it's an inevitable fact of life right now that he couldn't avoid acting on. Asking Webb about his son there might have been the same thing to him as someone asking about how someone fared during a hurricane. You're sorry he had to be there during it, but that's just what happens whether we want it to or not.

It's that train of thought that pisses off a lot of people, like Webb, even more.

By the way, http://www.ontheissues.org is an awesome site for anyone who wants to find out how any political official voted on anything. Thanks, Alex.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

I don't know, Bush isn't exactly your subtle thinker here. I'd think that, given the briefing, he'd actually think that asking about Webb's son in a very concerned manner (mock or not) would be "extra sensitive." In fact, I can see his handlers afterwards saying: "Didn't you listen to us?" and Bush replying "What the fuck are you talking about, I was *being* sensitive."

Guys, you really do give this guy too much credit in the Machiavelli sense.

I agree with you in the sense that I think Bush is about as subtle as a guided missile, but the part where he snapped "That's not what I asked you," I don't think I can credit to merely a lack of manners on Bush's part. To me, it's one more indication of what a prissy-pants he is. God forbid someone tell him something he doesn't want to hear or he'll get his panties in a twist.

[Justin Davis]

You know most of these "vote" claims are partisan bullshit right?

Let's take one example: "Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security."

Not according to Snopes. He voted against a proposed amendment to the Senate Immigration Bill which was intended to remove a clause saying that IF there was a future amnesty and IF illegal immigrants who took part in the amnesty could prove they had paid into social security prior to the amnesty, they could have those payments credited to their social security account.

So basically the measure doesn't "give social security to illegal immigrants" it does encourage them to pay into the social security system on the promise that maybe, somewhere down the track, they might have those payments credited towards the minimum period of contributions they need to make before they qualify for social security.

Let's stop right there so you can look back up at what Alex quoted. I'm pretty sure that "allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security" is not the same thing as "give social security to illegal immigrants." In fact, what you describe is what participating in social security means. There's nothing partisan or bullshit about it.

I'm also curious as to how raising the basic wage is going to increase federal spending, I doubt there are many federal employees on $5.00 an hour. (It will however increase federal revenue by pushing some people over the taxable threshold.)

I'm curious about this too. I'm also curious how this topic came up because I don't remember someone here saying it would increase federal spending.

[Justin Davis]

I agree with you in the sense that I think Bush is about as subtle as a guided missile, but the part where he snapped "That's not what I asked you," I don't think I can credit to merely a lack of manners on Bush's part. To me, it's one more indication of what a prissy-pants he is. God forbid someone tell him something he doesn't want to hear or he'll get his panties in a twist.

I think it's a combo of all of the above. Plus, I think he rarely has people tell him things he might not want to hear. All the reports about him being very shielded are likely not far from the truth.

[Iangould]

By the way, http://www.ontheissues.org is an awesome site for anyone who wants to find out how any political official voted on anything. Thanks, Alex.

In principle, it sounds great.

As I noted above, the practice seems somewhat lacking.

Let's take another random example:

John McCain on gun control:

"Voted YES on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks."

Regardless of the merits of the underlying proposal what was the context?

Was it part of a larger bill?

Was it a last minute attempt to insert the provision into an unrelated Act which needed to be passed rapidly?

Did McCain actually vote "no" to the proposal or did he refer it to a committee?

[Paul McEnery]

Let's stop right there so you can look back up at what Alex quoted. I'm pretty sure that "allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security" is not the same thing as "give social security to illegal immigrants." In fact, what you describe is what participating in social security means. There's nothing partisan or bullshit about it.

Au contraire. The bullshit part -- which I don't attribute to Alex, but rather to his source -- is to raise fake outrage about immigrants and social security. Which is something the Republican party has been doing an unpleasant amount of.

The reality is, of course, that with the declining birth rate, unless immigrants come in and contribute to social security, we're screwed.

[Iangould]

Let's stop right there so you can look back up at what Alex quoted. I'm pretty sure that "allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security" is not the same thing as "give social security to illegal immigrants." In fact, what you describe is what participating in social security means. There's nothing partisan or bullshit about it.

I was reacting more to the way the vote was represented on Snopes so yes I'm at fault here.

I'm curious about this too. I'm also curious how this topic came up because I don't remember someone here saying it would increase federal spending.

Alex wrote: "he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending." and cited the minimum wage vote as one of his bits of supporting evidence.

[Paul McEnery]

I think it's a combo of all of the above. Plus, I think he rarely has people tell him things he might not want to hear. All the reports about him being very shielded are likely not far from the truth.

Depends which way you look at it.

The fact that he chews people out for telling him things he doesn't want to hear, what does that make it for his aides? Shielding? Or self-defence?

Put it another way: Bush forcibly creates a situation where nothing gets through that changes his mind. And people might recall that that was even true with his professors, and that he'd go out of his way to make life difficult for them if he didn't like what they had to say.

And no, I don't remember the damn source.

[Paul McEnery]

Alex wrote: "he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending." and cited the minimum wage vote as one of his bits of supporting evidence.

Wait a second. How does minimum wage relate to federal spending?

[Justin Davis]

Au contraire. The bullshit part -- which I don't attribute to Alex, but rather to his source -- is to raise fake outrage about immigrants and social security. Which is something the Republican party has been doing an unpleasant amount of.

The reality is, of course, that with the declining birth rate, unless immigrants come in and contribute to social security, we're screwed.

So... is On the Issues a good source? It does offer a lot more info than many other sites.

I was reacting more to the way the vote was represented on Snopes so yes I'm at fault here.

No problem.

Alex wrote: "he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending." and cited the minimum wage vote as one of his bits of supporting evidence.

Yeah, well, Alex still doesn't capitalize the letter I in sentences when used as a word by itself. What do you expect?

[Iangould]

Au contraire. The bullshit part -- which I don't attribute to Alex, but rather to his source -- is to raise fake outrage about immigrants and social security. Which is something the Republican party has been doing an unpleasant amount of.

The reality is, of course, that with the declining birth rate, unless immigrants come in and contribute to social security, we're screwed.

No, my point was that it's bullshit to simplify politicians' record down to "voted yes on X" or "no on Y" without knowing the context of those votes.

Is someone a heartless bastard for voting down a billion dollars for breast cancer research?

How about if it was a last-minute rider tacked on to a multi-billion pork-barrelling bill?

[Justin Davis]

No, my point was that it's bullshit to simplify politicians' record down to "voted yes on X" or "no on Y" without knowing the context of those votes.

Is someone a heartless bastard for voting down a billion dollars for breast cancer research?

How about if it was a last-minute rider tacked on to a multi-billion pork-barrelling bill?

That's the thing though. I understood it as the opposite. Those aren't riders they're voting on, but the bills. Now, the bill may have a rider that causes to vote differently than normal.

[Iangould]

That's the thing though. I understood it as the opposite. Those aren't riders they're voting on, but the bills. Now, the bill may have a rider that causes to vote differently than normal.

Assuming the "let illegal immigrants participate in social security" vote is the one Snopes is referring to, it was a vote to refer the proposed amendment to a Committee.

[Dreadstar]

I agree with you in the sense that I think Bush is about as subtle as a guided missile, but the part where he snapped "That's not what I asked you," I don't think I can credit to merely a lack of manners on Bush's part. To me, it's one more indication of what a prissy-pants he is. God forbid someone tell him something he doesn't want to hear or he'll get his panties in a twist.

If you'll look back to the first post I made in this thread, you'll see that I agree with you on the issue of his reply to Webb. I woudn't use the leading word "snapped", but c'est la vie. I don't think there was any evil intent on his part for his initial comment (in fact, I now think he thought he was being "sensitive"), I thought Webb was an ass for the comment he made, and I thought Bush was a babbon's ass for the imperious nature of the final comment. The bit you quoted me on was merely about his initial comment in regards to his "briefing."

Seriously, I think Webb is culpable for the first escalation, and Bush took the bait and escalated it even farther, which was stupid of him.

[Justin Davis]

Seriously, I think Webb is culpable for the first escalation, and Bush took the bait and escalated it even farther, which was stupid of him.


Again, I agree, but with a caveat. Webb is culpable for the first escalation, but I find it to be an understandable reaction. Bush's responses are inexcusable. Webb is a father who reacted with an honest, emotional response. Bush did not have the ability to understand Webb's reaction was a possibility to his first question. Like I said before, I think this small incident gives more insight into how Bush views other larger diplomatic precedings.

Honestly though, I just wanted to use the word caveat in a sentence.

[Drew Van T.]

Like I said before, I think this small incident gives more insight into how Bush views other larger diplomatic preceding.

I feel that it is necessary (again) to bring up the back-rub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwORpJs96E&mode=related&search=) at this point.

Just as it does not occur to him that people might take take their strongly felt political stance into his personal realm, he does not suspect that people might object to his own invading of someone else's personal space....

[Justin Davis]

I feel that it is necessary (again) to bring up the back-rub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwORpJs96E&mode=related&search=) at this point.

Just as it does not occur to him that people might take take their strongly felt political stance into his personal realm, he does not suspect that people might object to his own invading of someone else's personal space....

What I think is hilarious is the venue and the person he does it with. It's a move you might make with a good friend as you walked around the dinner table. I have a feeling he treats everyone as if they're his friend even when they barely know him. Plus, rubbing the shoulders of a woman who is also the current Chancellor of Germany in front of a crowd of reporters? Not the brightest idea.

[JeffreyWKramer]

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Patrick_Leahy.htm
Voted YES on $40 billion per year for limited Medicare prescription drug benefit.
Voted NO on cap foreign aid at only $12.7 billion.
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act.
Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security.
Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25.

Voted NO on $40B in reduced federal overall spending. (Dec 2005)

You got me on the military bit, but he certainly isn't a supporter of frugal spending.

I don't know jack about the guy, and i couldn't vote for him if i wanted too, but i had to look it up.

So, yes, he's a douchebag, along with most of the people in congress. But how many of the above were his personal policy initiatives?

[Alex]

I missed the first part of where this started....
Minimum wage thing, I was just illustrating that the guy is shown to like anything that means more money goes out.
The site isn't the most amazing thing on earth, we've used it before on the boards and it is often missing information (Votes are still true, but there isn't a context).
So, for something like, showing jeffery the guy doesn't seem to care about the national debt, it works fine.

As for the originaly issue, new guy in congress wasn't nice to the president, not really an issue. Almost every democrat in office talks crap about Bush,publicly, he didn't even go that far.

[Solaris]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/28/AR2006112801582.html

At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia's newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn't long before Bush found him.

"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.

Could be that Webb is really a man with deep convictions who isn't interested in politics aside from passing the agenda he promised during the campaign. Either way, I thought it was interesting the way this conversation went down. I think Bush is going to have to get used to people not dealing with him on his own terms.

Webb did better than *I* would, under those circumstances. I'd either walk away from him and completely snub the man, or I'd give him a damned earful.

At any rate, I don't think Webb was rude at all (as some have said). If you truly don't like someone, you have no obligation to carry on a conversation with them. Webb didn't do anything to disrupt the occasion, and in fact, tried his best to avoid meeting Bush altogether. I think it was *Bush* who was egotistically rude in pursuing someone who obviously didn't want to talk to him, and in attempting to make the man carry on a conversation with him.

[Alex]

Webb did better than *I* would, under those circumstances. I'd either walk away from him and completely snub the man, or I'd give him a damned earful.

At any rate, I don't think Webb was rude at all (as some have said). If you truly don't like someone, you have no obligation to carry on a conversation with them. Webb didn't do anything to disrupt the occasion, and in fact, tried his best to avoid meeting Bush altogether. I think it was *Bush* who was egotistically rude in pursuing someone who obviously didn't want to talk to him, and in attempting to make the man carry on a conversation with him.

I do think Bush comes off as more rude in this case, but Webb comes off as being more political.
From the quote, what i gather is, Bush is saying "I don't want to talk politics right now" and Webb is saying "I do".
So bush tried again, "No, i didn't ask you about the war, how's your kid"
And Webb said "Screw you, ass."
HOWEVER! Bush shouldn't have persued it after he shot him down the first time. The guy needs to learn some people will never like him.

[PatrickG]

How can you ask a solider's father about his son and NOT be talking about the war?

[Solaris]

I do think Bush comes off as more rude in this case, but Webb comes off as being more political.
From the quote, what i gather is, Bush is saying "I don't want to talk politics right now" and Webb is saying "I do".
So bush tried again, "No, i didn't ask you about the war, how's your kid"
And Webb said "Screw you, ass."
HOWEVER! Bush shouldn't have persued it after he shot him down the first time. The guy needs to learn some people will never like him.

I disagree with Webb comging off as "more political" as you call him. I read the entire article, and the man has a deep committment to ending the Iran fiasco. It wasn't any kind of political grandstand play, or something said in a staged manner, attempting to sway other watchers (as I take the term "political" to be, in this instance). He was simply saying what he feels and believes. He's a Viet Nam vet, so war and what it entails is familiar to him. I think it's quite likely he's gotten some personal word from his son on ways that this war is failing because of administrative bungles, often at the expense of the troops who are fighting it. And his son is stuck right in the middle of that.

Being asked by the man who started it all, and who's kept it going, to be "let's talk family chummy-chummy" is a bit much, and he had no obligation to to so. I think his message was clear with his first answer (and even before, in his avoidance of Bush)... if Bush was a moron and tried to play the "I'm the powerful President and your Host, you must play by my rules" card... that was his fault.

Then again, Bush really isn't used to anything but sychophants...