Why is the Joker considered Insane?

[Lord_Archive]

Granted, the Joker's plans and goals operate on a completely different social aesthetic than anyone else, but his methods of accomplishing those goals are always quite rational.

Take the goal of blowing up a dam for example. An insane person would just throw his own feces at the dam or anything else until something else draws his attention. The Joker, however, while he may uses a lot of clowns in an overly elaborate stunt, will indeed use explosives in accomplishing the goal and will be far away from the explosion when it does go off. See the difference?

Criminal? Yes. Insane? Hardly.

Perhaps the lunacy bit is just a dodge for the Joker to keep people from realizing how in control of his actions he really is and in this sense, perhaps he is smarter than Batman.

[IamtheRock3]

well Crazy people can plan well

That what makes the seiral killers so Dangerous. They can pose as normal

That how they can build cults and get people to Join

Look at the Una Bomber

[Jack Zodiac]

Take the goal of blowing up a dam for example. An insane person would just throw his own feces at the dam or anything else until something else draws his attention. The Joker, however, while he may uses a lot of clowns in an overly elaborate stunt, will indeed use explosives in accomplishing the goal and will be far away from the explosion when it does go off. See the difference?

I don't know if you were trying to be funny or whatever, but that's not insanity. Insanity isn't the absence of rational thinking. It's a psychosis and unsoundness of mind, and a very broad term for irrational behavior. The Joker suffers from a variety of psychological disorders, especially megalomania. All of Batman's rogues have some psychosis or another, and are all considerably "insane."

[The Foreigner]

An insane person would just throw his own feces at the dam or anything else until something else draws his attention.

Mm. That's a pretty ignorant view of the term "insane."

[Kirayoshi]

There was a Batman black and white story a few years back(I think it's in one of the Batman:B&W trades) by Paul Dini and Alex Ross, that addressed this very issue. In the story, called "Crazy Like a Fox", a young intern at Arkham dug up a file on the Joker, written by a doctor who was studying him, suggested that his 'crazy' act was just that, an act, well orchestrated to keep him from being put on trial for his crimes. Unfortunately, it turned out that the author of this file was none other than Harlene Quinzel, aka Harley Quinn, so the findings were worthless.

Is Joker truly insane? Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately there's no conclusive way of proving his sanity(if he is truly sane) because he's to cagey to tip his hand. So he's diagnosed as insane, because there's really no other option.

[Jack Zodiac]

The point is, even if he is rational in how he does things, the fact that he's doing them and the reasons behind it are "insane."

[IamtheRock3]

that again he could be cosidered a Sociopath..which is differnt from a phycopath

Think Phycopath concept of reality is mess up. Rights and wrong is confuse


Sociopath, know right and wrong but simple dont care. May not have a Consciene, or sense of fear.

You know normal stuff that make you feel bad for poisoning Boy scouts

[dancj]

Thanks for that. I always wondered what the difference between a Psychopath and a Sociopath was. Going by that definition, does that mean that Psychopaths are considered mentally ill and therefore unable to stand trial and sociopaths are able to stand trial because the comprehend what they're doing?

Anyway Joker's blatantly insane. Plenty of insane people are capable of intelligence - otherwise you couldn't have insane geniuses (genii?)

Dan

[Trademark]

Joker doesn't even come close to fitting any real-world definition of medical insanity. It's a comic book, everything is supposed to be exaggerated. Joker for the most part is written by people who read comics, not people who have a college degree in Psychology. If anything, Joker is much more along the lines of Daffy Duck-style insane rather than medically insane. It's more as if someone watched a bunch of Looney Tunes cartoons and then tried to write Arkham psychologists in a manner similar to Looney Tunes psychologists.

[Kaos]

Personally I think he's a class A nutcase

[Erisu Kimu]

I liked him as the Red Hood, but anyway, Joker is a nut. He's a nut in the way he behaves and kills, but behind that lunacy, he's still an intelligent criminal. Sort of like the Mad Hatter, although I find the Joker to be more dangerous and brilliant.

[Superboy Prime]

that again he could be cosidered a Sociopath..which is differnt from a phycopath

Think Phycopath concept of reality is mess up. Rights and wrong is confuse

Sociopath, know right and wrong but simple dont care. May not have a Consciene, or sense of fear.

Thanks for that.

Well I suppose I have to say that I have always considered The Joker a Psychopath. Brilliant. Clever. And alot of other things, but a psychopath nevertheless.

[OverMaster]

Considering all what the Spectre and the JLA have seen whenever they walk inside of the Joker's mind... YES, HE IS INSANE. There is just no way of faking that kind of madness.

[Erisu Kimu]

Well, think about how he first became Joker. Think about the origin. He may have started out sane as the Red Hood, but after his transition to Joker from the chemical accident, he has been developing psychotic disorder. I mean, come on, the way he kills slowly escalates his thirst for more and sooner or later, he becomes insane. Maybe his excitement from fighting Batman and playing with his mind makes him do even more psychotic things as a result of his behaviour? It perhaps overshadows his way of thinking.

Do you know that many psychopaths can hide their lunacy with very straightforward personalities? In Joker's case, he isn't hiding his lunacy and at the same time, he ain't hiding his expertise as well unless the situation calls for it where he may be 'faking' his sanity, not his insanity. Think of all the antics over the years that he has done. Tell me that's not crazy. He kills people for his own amusement and laughs about it. He's also creative about it. In Batman: Dark Knight Returns, he was laughing on his way to death after fighting with Batman. In the Animated series or even in the comics, he has made people die from laughing gas, etc. What does a normal criminal find amusing in all of this? A normal criminal would come in the guise of Joe Chill.

[Sanagi]

I think it's because he dresses like a clown and kills people.

[Agentum]

And as they say the line between insanity and genius is quite thin.

[RickDangerous]

Well, its an intriguing premise, even if the author has adopted the closeminded ostrich method of denying any plausability to opposing arguments.

If anything, the penultimate desire is the effect the action has itself, first and foremost is the style in which The Joker goes about it. It's frightening to consider how interested he is in the aesthetics of a crime, even moreso than the crime itself. It's a production. Most criminals are considered with material gains, not the aesthetics associated in the act of a crime. I think this constitutes some degree of insanity in The Joker.

[dreyga2000]

In, Grant Morrison's graphic novel Arkham Asylum suggests that the Joker's mental state is in fact a previously unprecedented form of "super-sanity," a form of ultra-sensory perception. It also suggests that he has no true personality of his own, that on any given day he could be a harmless clown or a vicious killer, depending on which would benefit him the most. Later during the Knightfall saga after Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City, Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise the gas has no effect on Joker, who in turn beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.

The character is sometimes portrayed as having a heightened sense of self-awareness that other characters do not, such as being aware of being in a comic book. This fourth wall awareness also seems to carry over to Batman: The Animated Series. The Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera", and can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love. In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe.

[OverMaster]

He has a raging Hell of random insanity inside of his head that scared the Spectre, bent a Greek God in the pages of Wonder Woman, and resisted to mind control by the Martian Manhunter.

[The Zapper]

Anyway, no, Joker is not going to fit a real mental illness, because....wait for it.....he's not real! In any case, he would be one of the few insane peole, who KNOWS he's insane.

[Lord of Denial]

I think the creation of Baby Bombs proved his insanity.

[genesis]

I think one thing that showed his insanity was shooting Barbara Gordon point blank paralyzing her, raping her and then kidnapping her dad and forcing him to look at all of the pictures while being tied up in a carnival ride.


And incase any one is wondering the definition of insane by dictionary.com is, "Not sane". The Definition of Sane is, "free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind" so combining the two. insane means, Not free from a mental derangement; not having a sound, healthy mind. We all agree he has some sort of mental derangement through his escapades. He fits the definition of insane, as for the second part i would say what i mentioned above was done by somebody with a healthy mind. So the Joker is insane.

[TheLazy]

In, Grant Morrison's graphic novel Arkham Asylum suggests that the Joker's mental state is in fact a previously unprecedented form of "super-sanity," a form of ultra-sensory perception. It also suggests that he has no true personality of his own, that on any given day he could be a harmless clown or a vicious killer, depending on which would benefit him the most. Later during the Knightfall saga after Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City, Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise the gas has no effect on Joker, who in turn beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.

The character is sometimes portrayed as having a heightened sense of self-awareness that other characters do not, such as being aware of being in a comic book. This fourth wall awareness also seems to carry over to Batman: The Animated Series. The Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera", and can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love. In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe.

Case closed.

[Ontir]

In, Grant Morrison's graphic novel Arkham Asylum suggests that the Joker's mental state is in fact a previously unprecedented form of "super-sanity," a form of ultra-sensory perception. It also suggests that he has no true personality of his own, that on any given day he could be a harmless clown or a vicious killer, depending on which would benefit him the most. Later during the Knightfall saga after Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City, Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise the gas has no effect on Joker, who in turn beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.

The character is sometimes portrayed as having a heightened sense of self-awareness that other characters do not, such as being aware of being in a comic book. This fourth wall awareness also seems to carry over to Batman: The Animated Series. The Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera", and can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love. In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe.

That's fascinating! I knew he was trouble, just not how much!

[tyciol]

Insanity isn't the absence of rational thinking. It's.. a very broad term for irrational behavior.What is the distinction between absence of rationality in your thinking and irrational behaviour?

If behaviour is motivated by thinking that has rationale, wouldn't it be rational behaviour?

The point is, even if he is rational in how he does things, the fact that he's doing them and the reasons behind it are "insane."Since sanity is a state of mind, isn't it only appropriate to judge minds as sane or insane rather than actions? Actions are simply a result of things and I think describing them in terms of emotions or logic is a metaphor/slang means of personifying whoever is doing them.

In the case of the Joker, do we really have a clear picture of the reasons why he does things? We have glimpses for sure, but much of what he says is debatable since a lot could be posturing to mislead others about himself.

Considering all what the Spectre and the JLA have seen whenever they walk inside of the Joker's mind... YES, HE IS INSANE. There is just no way of faking that kind of madness.I don't see why not, someone very imaginative with hyper-sanity and many conceptualizations about the world would have an interesting perspective. Not to mention, if he did make an effort out of painting himself as insane, the persona he constructs to fool others would manifest in his mind as well and may be taken as legitimate by intruders who may not see the big picture of his psyche.

Think of all the antics over the years that he has done. Tell me that's not crazy. He kills people for his own amusement and laughs about it. He's also creative about it. In Batman: Dark Knight Returns, he was laughing on his way to death after fighting with Batman. In the Animated series or even in the comics, he has made people die from laughing gas, etc. What does a normal criminal find amusing in all of this? A normal criminal would come in the guise of Joe Chill.No one would ever accuse the Joker of being "normal". I think the question is whether he fits our various meanings we associate with words like crazy/mad/insane.

Joker would not be the first person to laugh at pain or death or others' suffering though. One might view it as related to say, sadomasochism, but that's paraphilia rather than insanity.

The character is sometimes portrayed as having a heightened sense of self-awareness that other characters do not, such as being aware of being in a comic book. This fourth wall awareness also seems to carry over to Batman: The Animated Series. The Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera"I wonder, who did this first, Joker or Deadpool?

can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love.I don't necessarily see this as breaking the 4th wall, since he could have come up with it on his own. Sort of like they ended up literally incorporated the old Spider-Man theme music from the first cartoon into the live movie.

Come to think of it, even 'speaking to the camera' might not actually be verifying the audience itself, but rather either Joker perceiving them, or simply pretending her perceives an audience for the lulz.

In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe.Could Joker's hyper-sanity and comic view give him a wider perspective of things like Access has? It makes you wonder if he also remembers being Hyena from the Amalgam Universe, similar to how Doctor Strange distinctly remembers Dr. Strangefate.

Anyway, no, Joker is not going to fit a real mental illness, because....wait for it.....he's not real! In any case, he would be one of the few insane peole, who KNOWS he's insane.Isn't it actually a marker of sanity to be aware of how one compares to others and the level of one's normalcy or sanity? Someone who thought they were perfectly sane or perfectly normal would actually be insane because these are fictional ideals that we make comparisons too, no one actually totally conforms to the concept. Joker may be less cognitively distorted than some people because he is aware of how he's an aberration.

I think the creation of Baby Bombs proved his insanity.Why? Sounds like genius to me. For example, looks how terrorists use it in this TV episode: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0683338/

One can question the sanity of what motivates people to commit atrocity, yet that is something that needs to be done more specifically. We seem to be making the assumption "this man has done a bad thing, the only way it could make sense to his mind is if he were not sane like us, because sane people decide this bad thing is bad and do not desire to do it, because sane people desire to be good." It seems like a lot of assumptions and arrogance, if we're more humble about it, we shouldn't necessarily condemn anyone who disagrees with what is constructive and good for society as out of touch with reality.

I think one thing that showed his insanity was shooting Barbara Gordon point blank paralyzing her, raping her and then kidnapping her dad and forcing him to look at all of the pictures while being tied up in a carnival ride.I don't think there's evidence that he raped her. Also, these actions are a valid way to terrorize someone and attempt to induce trauma. Joker was conducting an experiment based on the theory that if someone suffered enough, they would lose a normal sense of morality as Joker did when his own family died. His hypothesis seems to have been a failure since Gordon maintained his morality and sense of law and order and justice. These acts are abominable, yet they do have a touch of scientific process in them, much alike to torturing puppies with electrodes to see how much adrenalin they secrete and how long it takes them to hate humans in response to the torture. We don't like these things, but do they indicate the person is out of touch with what is real?

the definition of insane by dictionary.com is, "Not sane". The Definition of Sane is, "free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind" so combining the two. insane means, Not free from a mental derangement; not having a sound, healthy mind. We all agree he has some sort of mental derangement through his escapades. He fits the definition of insane, as for the second part i would say what i mentioned above was done by somebody with a healthy mind. So the Joker is insane.This begs the question of "what is derangement", since the expanded definition almost seems like a double negative. Rather than define sanity by what it is not (deranged) I'd rather define it by what it is (in this case, sound/healthy).

The difficulty here is, how do we objectively determine what a "healthy" mind is? The problem here is we are biased by our subjective belief of what health indicates. In an overall sense, I think most people will agree on some general principles, yet when it comes down to the nitty gritty details, people are going to increasingly disagree about what is healthy and unhealthy. To use an example outside of psychology: people can't often agree what is a healthy diet or a healthy exercise movement. I bet there's even more disagreement on what is a healthy outlook, healthy mental priorities, healthy perception, healthy behaviour, etc. Are television-watchers and comic book readers healthy people, for example? How much do you need to watch/read before it is unhealthy? I hope this identifies the relativity/subjectiveness controversy here. While these are more general problems used to make a point, the same issue of a lack of objective morality and sense of 'health' would apply to interpreting abnormal deviant different freakish perverse strange unusual weird persons like Joker.

[Vidocq]

The OP is just wrong. Insanity is a legal term (Not a medical term that any psychologist or psychiatrist is even allowed to use in a clinical context) that basically means that a person can't tell between right and wrong and is unfit to stand trial. Ted Bundy was a psychopath but he wasn't insane, matter of fact Psychopaths by definition can't be insane but I digress.

The Joker in this case would be considered insane because he has so little regard for human life that he doesn't see what's wrong with a some people dying. That would be the explanation his lawyers would give in his trials, your mileage may vary on whether this is true.

[Vaiyt]

The Joker is "considered insane" because otherwise he would have been killed or locked up long ago. In order to keep sending him back to Arkham, the pretense that he escapes trial by allegations of insanity needs to be held up.

[dreyga2000]

Someone bumped a 5 year old thread???

[Vidocq]

Someone bumped a 5 year old thread???

I not even noticed that when I read the OP. But yeah this Thread has REBORNED!!!

http://mimg.ugo.com/201006/48964/ugo-orpheus.jpg

[RockinRobin182]

Granted, the Joker's plans and goals operate on a completely different social aesthetic than anyone else, but his methods of accomplishing those goals are always quite rational.

Take the goal of blowing up a dam for example. An insane person would just throw his own feces at the dam or anything else until something else draws his attention. The Joker, however, while he may uses a lot of clowns in an overly elaborate stunt, will indeed use explosives in accomplishing the goal and will be far away from the explosion when it does go off. See the difference?

Criminal? Yes. Insane? Hardly.

Perhaps the lunacy bit is just a dodge for the Joker to keep people from realizing how in control of his actions he really is and in this sense, perhaps he is smarter than Batman.

Yes...that's not what insane means. Generally, (and I'm going by the analysis of serial killers because they're generally the craziest people on the planet) there are two types: organized and disorganized. Disorganized generally kill only in their vicinity and whoever they can get their hands on. Throwing feces is, as far as I can tell, almost never incorporated. They may have other weird "signatures" (ie, things they do for personal satisfaction...Joker's would be the smiles on the victims), but they do not intend to be a rhyme or reason to their actions...but, there is more likely than not usually one, so that makes them easy to catch. Then, there's the organized: they plan ahead and are meticulous and methodical. Joker is either organized or disorganized depending on his mood, which is an anomaly. But he's still crazy. Anybody who kills like that (innocent people without remorse) is off his rocker.

[Vidocq]

Yes...that's not what insane means. Generally, (and I'm going by the analysis of serial killers because they're generally the craziest people on the planet) there are two types: organized and disorganized. Disorganized generally kill only in their vicinity and whoever they can get their hands on. Throwing feces is, as far as I can tell, almost never incorporated. They may have other weird "signatures" (ie, things they do for personal satisfaction...Joker's would be the smiles on the victims), but they do not intend to be a rhyme or reason to their actions...but, there is more likely than not usually one, so that makes them easy to catch. Then, there's the organized: they plan ahead and are meticulous and methodical. Joker is either organized or disorganized depending on his mood, which is an anomaly. But he's still crazy. Anybody who kills like that (innocent people without remorse) is off his rocker.

OK, Once again Insanity is a legal term (Not a medical term that any psychologist or psychiatrist is even allowed to use in a clinical context) that basically means that a person can't tell between right and wrong and is unfit to stand trial. Ted Bundy was a psychopath but he wasn't insane, matter of fact Psychopaths by definition can't be insane. Serial Killers could be insane but it's not always the case.

[RockinRobin182]

OK, Once again Insanity is a legal term (Not a medical term that any psychologist or psychiatrist is even allowed to use in a clinical context) that basically means that a person can't tell between right and wrong and is unfit to stand trial. Ted Bundy was a psychopath but he wasn't insane, matter of fact Psychopaths by definition can't be insane.

Not entirely true. A psychopath can be insane, as well as he may not be insane (Always f**in' crazy though). A psychopath can kill people with no regard for their victim's lives, or by rationalizing it or moving the blame or what have you- it still shows a lack of remorse. Then again, they could feel guilty. A key tell of this is if the killer buries the bodies or hides them (like Bundy who, you are right, legally not insane).

[Vidocq]

Not entirely true. A psychopath can be insane, as well as he may not be insane (Always f**in' crazy though).
No they can't. To be insane, meaning to not know right and wrong, you need to be delusional and you can't be delusional and be a psychopath at the same time. Regardless of what many people think Psychosis and Psychopathy are mutually exclusive. Psychopaths know what they are doing is wrong, they just don't care. The key trait in psychopathy is lack of empathy.

A psychopath can kill people with no regard for their victim's lives, or by rationalizing it or moving the blame or what have you- it still shows a lack of remorse. Then again, they could feel guilty. A key tell of this is if the killer buries the bodies or hides them (like Bundy who, you are right, legally not insane).

That's something that can sometimes confuse people. The act of hiding the bodies by itself does not mean that a person feels guilt, it just means that the person doesn't want to get caught (Which is itself a sign of sanity). A sign of of a guilty conscience on the other hand would show on how the amount of care the murder showed for the body, If they marked the grave somehow or positioned the body with it's hands on a chest like in a funeral may be signs of guilt. Psychopaths can't feel guilt over what they did or be able to care on how theconsequences of their actions affect others.

[Uxas]

From Wikipedia:

The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions-- Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness.

David T. Lykken proposes psychopathy and sociopathy are two distinct kinds of antisocial personality disorder. He believes psychopaths are born with temperamental differences such as impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness that lead them to risk-seeking behavior and an inability to internalize social norms. On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. Both personality disorders are the result of an interaction between genetic predispositions and environmental factors, but psychopathy leans towards the hereditary whereas sociopathy tends towards the environmental.

Yes, Wikipedia is always right. PERIOD.

[Wexquif]

Well, its an intriguing premise, even if the author has adopted the closeminded ostrich method of denying any plausability to opposing arguments.

If anything, the penultimate desire is the effect the action has itself, first and foremost is the style in which The Joker goes about it. It's frightening to consider how interested he is in the aesthetics of a crime, even moreso than the crime itself. It's a production. Most criminals are considered with material gains, not the aesthetics associated in the act of a crime. I think this constitutes some degree of insanity in The Joker.
The Penguin is heavily concerned with aesthetics and he isn't insane.

[Aziz Abbasi]

He enjoys seeing his plans foiled by Batman, and he enjoys bringing damage to him
His obsession with Batman as his chew toy is his main insanity

[Mat001]

While the legal and medicial professions will probably differ in real life, within the DCU, the Joker is considered super insane. A form of insanity that is not normal by text book standards. He is the best of everything. Sociopathic, pyschopathic, schizophrenic and so on. Grant Morrison gave us insight when he wrote JLA #11, where J'onn and Superman entered the Joker's mind and saw how insane it was. When J'onn altered his mind to match the Joker's brain patterns and what seems to be a jumbled mess to the average eye, is clean and clear to the Joker or someone on his level. James Robinson went back even further in Showcase '94 #1 and 2, where we saw the Joker's imagination and it depicted a man who was truly insane.

[RockinRobin182]

No they can't. To be insane, meaning to not know right and wrong, you need to be delusional and you can't be delusional and be a psychopath at the same time. Regardless of what many people think Psychosis and Psychopathy are mutually exclusive. Psychopaths know what they are doing is wrong, they just don't care. The key trait in psychopathy is lack of empathy.



That's something that can sometimes confuse people. The act of hiding the bodies by itself does not mean that a person feels guilt, it just means that the person doesn't want to get caught (Which is itself a sign of sanity). A sign of of a guilty conscience on the other hand would show on how the amount of care the murder showed for the body, If they marked the grave somehow or positioned the body with it's hands on a chest like in a funeral may be signs of guilt. Psychopaths can't feel guilt over what they did or be able to care on how theconsequences of their actions affect others.


How about we just agree that the Joker is evil and the insanity is used to be a legal defense? (Meaning, it's been a good day and I don't feel like arguing over something I'm not that passionate about :smile:)

Edit: We can also agree that insanity doesn't mean throwing poop at things. I think we're essentially on the same page.

[Nightblaze]

I think that Jokers mentality started suffering when he still was Red Hood but then after that chemical accident he lost last bits of his sanity or he just became evil not insane by knowing that its completely wrong and horrible but its just amuses him so I would say Joker is sadistic in way.

[Superbeast]

Thanks for that. I always wondered what the difference between a Psychopath and a Sociopath was. Going by that definition, does that mean that Psychopaths are considered mentally ill and therefore unable to stand trial and sociopaths are able to stand trial because the comprehend what they're doing?

Anyway Joker's blatantly insane. Plenty of insane people are capable of intelligence - otherwise you couldn't have insane geniuses (genii?)

Dan

Outside of comics, can you name any genuine geniuses that are insane? I personally can't. I don't think in the real world it's actually possible to be out of your mind and still in line for recognition by the academic community as incredibly mentally gifted. Most insane people are just that, insane. They aren't secretly studying astrophysics in between their moments of screaming at people that walk by and insisting they need music all the time to keep out the bad voices, they are too bothered by their mental condition to worry about getting a BA.

[Superbeast]

And as they say the line between insanity and genius is quite thin.

Who are "they"?

This is a ridiculous statement. Genius is a natural aptitude towards learning advanced techniques in a particular area such as being able to figure out just how to kick a soccer ball to in the right place to give it the right force and spin to go in the exact direction the striker plans it or being able to mentally calculate math or complex formulas correctly and then being able to correctly surmise the result using collected applied knowledge from studying the subject. There are different forms of intelligence and while it is suggested people of higher intelligence question morality and social ethics more often than less intelligent folks happy to just get along in life, to suggest folks of high intelligence or those naturally able to adapt or learn skills are a step away from disconnecting from reality, creating their own subjective reality to exist within and disassociating from normative social values entirely is incorrect. If anything it is suggested those of low intelligence who suffer deprived upbringings and are subjected or are witness to abuse are more likely to have mental issues, look at John Wayne Gacy and Henry Lee Lucas. Otherwise MENSA wouldn't exist and instead Nobel prizes would be handed out to the person who screamed at the most inanimate objects or yelled out the most bizarre non sequitors at passing traffic.

[carabas]

Seven brilliant nutters. (http://www.cracked.com/article_16559_7-eccentric-geniuses-who-were-clearly-just-insane.html)

[Superbeast]

Seven brilliant nutters. (http://www.cracked.com/article_16559_7-eccentric-geniuses-who-were-clearly-just-insane.html)

There is very significant difference from having a skewed personal view of the world due to overdeveloped personal theories/intellectual arrogance/lack of contradicting information due to the time period they existed in and being outright insane. Howard Hughes ended up fearing germs and collecting his own urine but that didn't mean he lost his understanding of the outside world completely, he just tried to create a protective microcosm for him to exist with in after his traumas drove him to basically develop Diogenes syndrome.

People that are genuinely declared insane generally have very little interest in anything outside of their own mental microcosm, let alone building complex machines or writing criticisms in regards to society. They are disengaged from basic understanding and societal norms to the point they wouldn't be able to apply any of their insane beliefs to actual society as most are not allowed not engage with normal society because it may set of a more serious mental episode if the rules of their microcosm are challenged, only causing their psychosis to deepen or cause paranoid thoughts that will distress them further.

[carabas]

There is very significant difference from having a skewed personal view of the world due to overdeveloped personal theories/intellectual arrogance/lack of contradicting information due to the time period they existed in and being outright insane."Insane" is not a medical term, it's a legal term.

Howard Hughes ended up fearing germs and collecting his own urine but that didn't mean he lost his understanding of the outside world completely,And you seem to have made up your very own personal definition of the word anyway.

People that are genuinely declared insane...do not actually exist in the real world. Not where modern medicine is practiced anyway.

[cosmicjoke]

"Insanity is just a means of identifying the social deviant."

- The Joker

I don't think the Joker views himself as insane. That's another thing The Dark Knight got right, I think, showing the Joker become annoyed when someone calls him crazy. And of course, usually, if you are crazy, its not as if you would know it.

[Superbeast]

"Insane" is not a medical term, it's a legal term.

And you seem to have made up your very own personal definition of the word anyway.

...do not actually exist in the real world. Not where modern medicine is practiced anyway.

I've worked with people that have long term mental issues that are unlikely to recover before. I am aware it's a legal term however since people are using it in a very broad sense in this thread already in regards to high functioning sociopaths of psychopaths, I figured this was a when in Rome situation and I was applying the term in the sense of meaning people with a mental health issue that has led to them disassociating from normal social behaviours and attitudes with very little or no chance of recovery. In my experience folks with serious mental health issues have very little interest in murder, chemistry or how to rob banks. They generally prefer to be left alone to do their own thing, happy in their own little worlds as long as nothing disturbs them or their beliefs.

[Jorriss]

Ya know you can use the term insane and not correct someone every time because it's not a medical term. That's fairly common knowledge now and it doesn't mean you can't use the word. It's still common language like if I say someone is batshit crazy, people get it - even if it's not accurate or rigorously defined.

[Superbeast]

Ya know you can use the term insane and not correct someone every time because it's not a medical term. That's fairly common knowledge now and it doesn't mean you can't use the word. It's still common language like if I say someone is batshit crazy, people get it - even if it's not accurate or rigorously defined.

Well for Carabas I've explained I know the difference, however it's not like everyone involved mental health goes out of their way to go "I don't use the word insane for the guy who keeps having night terrors and spends most of his days making faces at the staff in between his bouts of incontinence that amuse him." when they go down the pub, they say "Yeah, the insane guy who craps himself was freaking me out today, he kept staring at me when I went in to the day room."

[cosmicjoke]

I've said it before, but applying real world standards and logic to comic books is pointless. There's a lot of things in comics that, in the real world, wouldn't fly. The Joker does things which would cause others to regard him as insane, even if not legally, such as purposefully placing his own life at risk constantly, showing little to no regard for his own well being, etc... Most people would call someone who does that crazy, because the natural instinct of human beings is to preserve themselves.

[HopeLantern]

I thought I read somewhere that Joker was so insane, it almost qualifies as a super power...

[Superbeast]

I've said it before, but applying real world standards and logic to comic books is pointless. There's a lot of things in comics that, in the real world, wouldn't fly. The Joker does things which would cause others to regard him as insane, even if not legally, such as purposefully placing his own life at risk constantly, showing little to no regard for his own well being, etc... Most people would call someone who does that crazy, because the natural instinct of human beings is to preserve themselves.

Which would make people that live otherwise healthy, normal and productive lives but choose to go skydiving crazy when we really know they are just seeking a better endorphine dump by putting themselves at greater risk so the body's natural painkillers and relaxants are pumped into their system. We understand the methods we can use to trick our bodies to give us this pleasure and indulge in them with practical safety precautions in place to actually limit the risk of death or injury.

The Joker as a high functioning sociopath who invented his own set of rules for his own purposes to justify his actions and lifestyle works a lot more than the idea he's some completely mentally deranged genius.

[cosmicjoke]

There you go with applying real world logic again.

You take the Joker's actions in "The Dark Knight", for example, him putting himself in a position to be shot by Harvey Dent, to be run over by Batman, and laughing as he falls to his demise from a skyscraper, that's not the same as someone who goes skydiving. The Joker expects to die and thinks its funny, thinks its amusing. People who sky dive have something called a parachute, which they rationalize will save them from death. They don't think they're going to die. If they were to free fall from the top of a building without a parachute, thinking they were going to hit the ground, they would scream, not laugh. And if they laughed, everyone would call them crazy.

[Superbeast]

There you go with applying real world logic again.

You take the Joker's actions in "The Dark Knight", for example, him putting himself in a position to be shot by Harvey Dent, to be run over by Batman, and laughing as he falls to his demise from a skyscraper, that's not the same as someone who goes skydiving. The Joker expects to die and thinks its funny, people who sky dive have something called a parachute, which they rationalize will save them from death. If they were to free fall from the top of a building without a parachute, thinking they were going to hit the ground, they would scream, not laugh. And if they laughed, everyone would call them crazy.

Then he'd be a guy with low self esteem and suicidal tendencies trying to get himself killed like that dude who spraypainted a V on the wall of a schoolboard meeting, made up a bunch of lies about his wife losing her job at the school to try justify his behaviour at the time (a la the "you know how I got these scars?" stories to suggest one incident set him off) and ended up getting his brains blown out. Baiting authority to get yourself killed, therefore proving the world really was against them in their own mind, is not uncommon these days.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338645/Florida-school-board-shooting-Moment-gunman-Clay-Duke-opens-fire.html

[cosmicjoke]

It's the Joker's reaction to getting himself killed which would lead others to feel he was insane. Him thinking it's the height of hilarity makes him come across as mad.

The Joker obviously doesn't suffer from low self-esteem. He's completely narcissistic.

I don't know why you feel the need to apply real world cases to a fictional character who's unlike any real world person I've ever heard of.

[Superbeast]

It's the Joker's reaction to getting himself killed which would lead others to feel he was insane. Him thinking it's the height of hilarity makes him come across as mad.

The Joker obviously doesn't suffer from low self-esteem. He's completely narcissistic.

I don't know why you feel the need to apply real world cases to a fictional character who's unlike any real world person I've ever heard of.

You and I are actually arguing the same side here in a way if you read through my own posts. I am saying that the way he is described in the comics works for what they want him to do, however in reality people that are genuinely mentally ill to a severe degree are neither likely to aspire to be genius level intellects or take over cities, poison water supplies or blow up banks. They are more likely to say, build or draw random things for reasons that only make sense to them according to their damaged perception and understanding of the world that means they often create their own microcosm for their own wellbeing.

[cosmicjoke]

Well, yeah, lol. Of course it's not realistic that the Joker would be so capable of manipulating others and creating such elaborate plans if he were truly mentally ill, i.e. suffering from hallucinations, schizophrenia, etc... All I'm saying is, whether he qualifies for the actual definition of mental illness or not, people would perceive of him as insane because of how he acts, the types of situations he places himself in, how he exhibits no instinct for self-preservation and no fear, and how utterly different his view of things are from theirs. People would call him crazy in the real world, whether he would qualify legally or not. Obviously, he's a genius and capable of outsmarting and outmaneuvering everyone else, and in reality, someone suffering from some kind of mental deficiency probably wouldn't be capable of that. But, hey, it's comics, and certain allowances have to be made. The Joker's insane in the world of comics, and really, in the context of all that's capable in comics, it's not really that far fetched to have him be both mentally ill and also a genius capable of out thinking everyone else.

[carabas]

Ya know you can use the term insane and not correct someone every time because it's not a medical term. That's fairly common knowledge now and it doesn't mean you can't use the word. It's still common language like if I say someone is batshit crazy, people get it - even if it's not accurate or rigorously defined.

Well for Carabas I've explained I know the difference, however it's not like everyone involved mental health goes out of their way to go "I don't use the word insane for the guy who keeps having night terrors and spends most of his days making faces at the staff in between his bouts of incontinence that amuse him." when they go down the pub, they say "Yeah, the insane guy who craps himself was freaking me out today, he kept staring at me when I went in to the day room."

Well, even for colloquial use, Superbeast's definition of insanity is not very mainstream.
"Howard Hughes ended up fearing germs and collecting his own urine but that didn't mean he lost his understanding of the outside world completely, he just tried to create a protective microcosm for him to exist with in after his traumas drove him to basically develop Diogenes syndrom."

To most people Howard Hughes fits the general definition of 'insane'. Not right in the head, but not necessarily so wrong in the head that he can only drool and fling his faeces at visitors.

[Melfice]

Someone bumped a 5 year old thread???

Good eye haha