What If Wolverine Enemy of the State

[Sparda]

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Basically it shows how Logan had assasinated almost all the hero community and succeeds in most of his missions cause of his teleporting gadged that Hydra gave to him. Survivors chosen to take down Logan was Shadowcat, Magneto, Captian America, and Sue Storm.

They come to a secret Shield hideout to set up a trap for Logan to beat him down while magneto holds a magnetic field so that Logan will not be able to teleport. Showed Captain America presumebly had his arm and leg cut by Logan. Logan comes to the hideout, taking everyone by surprise, and attacked sue storm first by punctiuring her legs with his claws. He then goes in for the kill. He goes after cap and cap did all he could to fight back despite his handicap but got saved by magneto by the last second and decides to rip the admantium from logan but logan teleported behing mags and kills him.

Logan then goes after cap, and Kitty managed to help cap but he insisted that she let go and wolverine shoved his whole fist impaling Caps face. Kitty was left and she tried to convince logan but to no avail so she made a sacrifice by phasing her hand into logans skull and having it squeezed tight on his brain and logan cut off her arm. She did this, knowing that Hydra cannot remove her lost arm from logans skull cause of his admantium and hence rendered him useless despite his healing factor. Shield comes in and does a clean up and Elektra was there too (thought logan took her out but did'nt). Next scene you see Kitty crying for what she did to logan and hoped that if one day he does recover that he does'nt remember what he did.

END SPOILER

My final thoughts of this issue was that it was frickin awesome!!!!!!!!!! I enjoyed this What if? issue out of the rest that I've read so far. I really do hope they continue this story and have Jimmy Robertson to continue it.

[sherlockbones]

whoa what a gorefest
although the concept isn´t very original
... kills the marvel universe

[Effect]

Who was the youngest hero to be taken out? How was Spidey taken out?

[Omega Alpha]

Yeah, they did it. By the writer's interview, i thought that Wolverine would be killing only some street-levers, which would be OK, but, no, Wolverine KILLED THE ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE! He killed Sue Richards and Magneto! And it's implied that he killed the Hulk, Dr. Strange, the Sentry, etc. That's official, Wolverine's jobber aura has gone out of control. It's as bad as that What If in which Wolverine gains from Apocalypse a super-skeleton that makes him stronger than Apocalypse himself and he kills him, Dr. Doom, Sinister, and fights all heroes together by himself and wins. Really, i know is just a What If, but Marvel really believes that we are supposed to buy that bullsh*t? I love Wolverine, but Marvel is making it harder and harder to like him, i guess it will come soon the day in which it will be impossible

[Mitsaso]

That was crappy.

I know Wolverine's supposed to be all that, but the way he kills all these Marvel characters is not convincing. Hydra just teleports him around if he's pinned down? Then why didn't they do that in the original story? I know it's a What-If, but the way that this universe makes itself different from 616 is not obvious. Whhich factor in the whole story changed and made Wolverine succeed in killing all those people? Teleporting-Wolvie is not enough of a reason.

Now, "Punisher kills the entire Marvel Universe", that was a story which explained satisfyingly how the lead character killed everyone else.


Pros:
The way Wolverine killed Sue. Very Tarantinesque:D
The way Kitty offed him. Hardcore!!!:D

As you can see, the only good characteristic of this one-shot was a couple of gore scenes, but the rest of the book was too lame to justify their existence.

[DDM]

I think Marvel released a similar story about the Punisher killing the Marvel Universe. Fred Hembeck did something similar too, although his story is great because all of his humor is tongue & cheek.

I'm not getting this book. I'm still tired of Wolverine.

[The Fury]

I think Marvel released a similar story about the Punisher killing the Marvel Universe.
You think? DDM thinks? *Where am I?*

Marvel did release it, published in '95. I have the original copy as it was re-released a few years after I think.

Writen by Garth Ennis and illustrated by Doug Braithewaite.

[rwsmith]

Now, "Punisher kills the entire Marvel Universe", that was a story which explained satisfyingly how the lead character killed everyone else.

Really!? You mean like when he tracked the Hulk until he turned into Banner and then shot him in the head? Oh, wait, that's been done before in the Marvel Universe and it didn't work then, so why would it work for the Punisher?

Or like when he lured everyone to the moon with a mysterious note and they actually showed up like idiots and he nukes them? Yeah, that was much better than this. :rolleyes:

[Mitsaso]

Really!? You mean like when he tracked the Hulk until he turned into Banner and then shot him in the head? Oh, wait, that's been done before in the Marvel Universe and it didn't work then, so why would it work for the Punisher?

Or like when he lured everyone to the moon with a mysterious note and they actually showed up like idiots and he nukes them? Yeah, that was much better than this. :rolleyes:
Those killings might have been cheesy, but they were fun! :p For a 90's comic, it was pretty cool.
Now, it's just Wolverine teleporting around and stabbing people.

[rwsmith]

Well, that's fun to me. ;)

[Omega Alpha]

Really!? You mean like when he tracked the Hulk until he turned into Banner and then shot him in the head? Oh, wait, that's been done before in the Marvel Universe and it didn't work then, so why would it work for the Punisher?

Or like when he lured everyone to the moon with a mysterious note and they actually showed up like idiots and he nukes them? Yeah, that was much better than this. :rolleyes:

I didn't like "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe" too. Let this job to Thanos, Dr. Doom, Dark Phoenix, etc, not to street-levers or people without super-powers. :mad:

[rwsmith]

Agreed. There's just some heroes who cannot be taken out by guys like Wolverine or the Punisher or even Cap or Batman, no matter how hard they might put their minds to it.

I liked this story, though, because they didn't actually show Logan taking out anyone like the Hulk, Thor, the Sentry, etc. All of the guys he took out were guys that he could realistically have offed, especially with the enhancements that Hydra gave him. Spidey, Moon Knight, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and even in the montage that was shown on that 2-page spread you saw Iron Man, Daredevil, the Thing, etc. I don't think it's unrealistic that Logan could kill any of those guys, especially if he had the element of surprise on his side.

Now, they never did address what happened to the uber-powerful heroes, but they didn't show Logan beating them either.

[Omega Alpha]

I liked this story, though, because they didn't actually show Logan taking out anyone like the Hulk, Thor, the Sentry, etc. All of the guys he took out were guys that he could realistically have offed, especially with the enhancements that Hydra gave him. Spidey, Moon Knight, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and even in the montage that was shown on that 2-page spread you saw Iron Man, Daredevil, the Thing, etc. I don't think it's unrealistic that Logan could kill any of those guys, especially if he had the element of surprise on his side.
Now, they never did address what happened to the uber-powerful heroes, but they didn't show Logan beating them either


Like i said before, the preview showed up the dead list of almost only street-levers, so there were few or none whom he killing would be far-fetched. Specially because he had teleporting, see what happened in the fight with Spidey, for example, in which he would have been beaten if it wasn't for it. But then, Cap says that they are "the only ones left". If so, where's Hulk or Strange? And Logan taking Sue and specially Magneto down is PIS.

[jmc247]

Its like I have been saying for some time the writers are turning Wolverine into a cosmic level being. He manages to wipe out just about all the Marvel heros and villians in this one and takes on Magneto and Sue Storm at the same time and wins. I would have liked to have seen how Wolverine killed Doom and Iron Man.

[Jake V]

Its like I have been saying for some time the writers are turning Wolverine into a cosmic level being. He manages to wipe out just about all the Marvel heros and villians in this one and takes on Magneto and Sue Storm at the same time and wins. I would have liked to have seen how Wolverine killed Doom and Iron Man.
With his claws.

Duh!

[jmc247]

With his claws.


Iron Man and Doom wouldn't be easy to take out with his claws. Then again Magneto and Sue Storm shouldn't have been easy for him to take out with his claws.

[jmc247]

I am waiting for Wolverine to fly through the air and cut off Galactus's head and then to have him job the Living Tribuneral to cement himself as the true All Father of the Marvelverse.

[Sparda]

You guys also gotta keep in mind that everyone wanted to "save" wolverine from the brainwashing of Hydra so they did'nt necessarily played hard ball with logan. Also as a factor that Logan could have had help from other hero's or villians and lots of rescourses on his side to take on the big guns.

Thing is understandable he took down. Iron Man, he could have gotten some device from Hydra or something like that to weaken tony. In other words he had prep time which is why it's understandable he took out Tony.

As for Sentry, I think enemy of the state storyline happend before New Avengers were formed. I'm not sure. If it took place before then, then it's understandable why you don't see sentry somewhere.

As for hulk, Wolverine must have injected some anti hulk serum to make him uncouncius and turn back to human and off him right there and decapitated the guy. Only explanation I've see.

This just show's you that a hero with mass recources, prep time, and angry miltary/weopan X training along with healing factor and admantium claws just proves you are a deadly living weapon.

[jmc247]

You guys also gotta keep in mind that everyone wanted to "save" wolverine from the brainwashing of Hydra so they did'nt necessarily played hard ball with logan. Also as a factor that Logan could have had help from other hero's or villians and lots of rescourses on his side to take on the big guns.


That part wasn't realistic. After the death of a few big name superheros like Reed, Spiderman, Magneto's family the Marvel supers would get together and womp the hell out of Wolverine. They would not be talking about taking him alive.

And, people like Sue Storm and Magneto would have been far far far more in bloodlust mode then they were in the comic. They have both shown they are willing to go on total jihads when something they care about is killed or threatened.

[Sean Whitmore]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

The term "jobbing" has done so much damage to comics it's friggin' unreal.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

As for the issue...morbidly fun. Fun and brainless and everyone dies way too easily. Just like 95% of all What If stories.


SEAN

[jmc247]

As for the issue...morbidly fun. Fun and brainless and everyone dies way too easily. Just like 95% of all What If stories.


SEAN

IMHO it would be better to make many of these What Ifs like this into minis that last maybe 3 or 4 comics. That way you avoid the problem that in order to do your story the writer has to kill off half of Marvel in 10 pages.

[Tobias March]

As for the issue...morbidly fun. Fun and brainless and everyone dies way too easily. Just like 95% of all What If stories.


SEAN

I think it's obvious that cos it's Wolvie hackles are raised.

[Sean Whitmore]

IMHO it would be better to make many of these What Ifs like this into minis that last maybe 3 or 4 comics. That way you avoid the problem that in order to do your story the writer has to kill off half of Marvel in 10 pages.

Maybe once in a while, but I can't think of very many What If concepts that were strong enough to sustain multiple issues.

This one, for example, certainly does not.


SEAN

[jmc247]

Maybe once in a while, but I can't think of very many What If concepts that were strong enough to sustain multiple issues.

This one, for example, certainly does not.


I didn't say to do it for all of them.

AoA is a great example of a What If on steroids. I am not calling for lots of AoA, but for some good What If stories to go on 2 or 3 issues.

Also, House of M was beyond what one could describe as a What If.

[Omega Alpha]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

The term "jobbing" has done so much damage to comics it's friggin' unreal.


SEAN

No, the term jobbind did not do any damage to comics at all. Zero. None.

What did so much damage to comics it's friggin' unreal was the pratice of jobbing itself. Like Wolverine killing every single Marvel super-hero, and taking on Sue Richards and Magneto at the same time.

[Sean Whitmore]

No, the term jobbind did not do any damage to comics at all. Zero. None.

What did so much damage to comics it's friggin' unreal was the pratice of jobbing itself. Like Wolverine killing every single Marvel super-hero, and taking on Sue Richards and Magneto at the same time.

Think I'll just let that speak for itself.


SEAN

[rwsmith]

No, the term jobbind did not do any damage to comics at all. Zero. None.

What did so much damage to comics it's friggin' unreal was the pratice of jobbing itself. Like Wolverine killing every single Marvel super-hero, and taking on Sue Richards and Magneto at the same time.

In a What If..., don't forget that part. Like Sean said, everyone dies easily in these type of things. Just look at AoA, Days of Future Past, or any alternate reality story. Chock full of deaths that would never happen in regular continuity.

[Omega Alpha]

In a What If..., don't forget that part. Like Sean said, everyone dies easily in these type of things. Just look at AoA, Days of Future Past, or any alternate reality story. Chock full of deaths that would never happen in regular continuity.

I know is not canon, but still is annoying. One thing is to have the Dark Phoenix kill the entire universe, or a Sentinel blast cut Colossus in half, the other is the Punisher killing Dr. Doom or Wolverine defeat Magneto and (seems like it happened) Dr. Strange.

And, of course, if that sort of thing was restricted to What Ifs or alternate realities, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. But to see Gambit defeating Gladiator by throwing cards at him and stuff like that is ridiculous.

[Chris Thomas]

count me in the 'this was crap' crowd. not terribly uninteresting crap--just crap. the 'strategy' used by the team was horrible from the get go. and wolverine beating magneto like that? ug

wolverine has now officially become silver age superman. I soon expect him to kill galactus and every villian on earth during his lunch break

[JuanJohnboy]

jeez... this was ridiculous........ the way he killed everyone.... sigh....
more like a story done by wolvie-lolfanboys from the kmc vs thread forums....

[JuanJohnboy]

no wait this was beyond ridiculous..... i just noticed Thor is down in the cover...

[jmc247]

count me in the 'this was crap' crowd. not terribly uninteresting crap--just crap. the 'strategy' used by the team was horrible from the get go. and wolverine beating magneto like that? ug

wolverine has now officially become silver age superman. I soon expect him to kill galactus and every villian on earth during his lunch break

Yes, Caps plan was completely retarded.

If Wolverine under the control of Hydra really killed Mags family or part of it like Cap said early on in the comic the battle would have gone something like this. Magneto finds out where Hydra's base of operations is from his sources. He grabs a 25-mile wide astroid from the Kuiper belt and drops it on them.

And, I hate to see what Sue Storm would do to Wolverine if he really did killed Jonny and Reed. She would probably put a forcefield in his brain and pop it like an egg.

[Omega Alpha]

no wait this was beyond ridiculous..... i just noticed Thor is down in the cover...

Hahaha Now that you mentioned, i noticed it too. Man, i'm just waiting for the day Wolverine defeats the Silver Surfer.

[JuanJohnboy]

Hahaha Now that you mentioned, i noticed it too. Man, i'm just waiting for the day Wolverine defeats the Silver Surfer.


Wolverine actually kills the Silver Surfer in another "What if?" issue... it was something like "What if Galactus invades the Age of Apocalypse?" , i read it a long time ago but he kills him in the moon... in a base made by Tony Stark. Sad but true... he stabs him T_T.

[The Fury]

Mr Stabby does well in this book. He kills everyone by cheating.

Anyway, beside the stupid plan (Magneto only needed to wave his hand and wolverine = toast) and the overly 'Isn't Wolverine Great' feel of the book.

How the HELL did wolverine put his claws through Captain America's shield?

[Omega Alpha]

Wolverine actually kills the Silver Surfer in another "What if?" issue... it was something like "What if Galactus invades the Age of Apocalypse?" , i read it a long time ago but he kills him in the moon... in a base made by Tony Stark. Sad but true... he stabs him T_T.

Oh, f*ck!:(

[jmc247]

Oh, f*ck!:(

Next up for Wolverine.... killing a Celestial.

[sherlockbones]

i seriously can´t believe all the controversy in this thread. the wolverine bash reflex. he is in a lot of comics and 3 movies, it´s not like they advertise him before every news flash.
what do you expect from a "what if" book? what if wolverine liked red jackets better than brown jackets? it´s always over the top and mostly likely directed at a younger peer group. and yes, i think the gambit/gladiator example shows the limitations a wif-book should have pretty good. but since wolverine only killed people that can be cut > what the heck?
the only problem is definitly the hulk, but since the symbiote could take over the hulk, which i think should be impossible in canon books, who cares?

here are some other books you might want to bitch about:

What if the Hulk went berserk?
What if Wolverine had killed the Hulk?
What if the Avengers defeated everybody?
What if Thor and the Avengers fought the gods?
What if the X-Men lost Inferno?
What if Wolverine was lord of the vampires?

[brundlefly]

I've been fairly disappointed with the recent What If's so far. The Avengers one had that from-left-field twist with Cap that kind of soured it, and the Spidey one wanted to be oooohscarycreepy like Kraven's Last Hunt but failed. This Wolvie one we've kind of seen before ('what if Logan killed the MU') in the 'What If Wolvie was Lord of the Vampires' that sherlockbones referenced. The gory finish between Kitty and Logan was pretty nifty and I liked the way the HYDRA-affiliated murderous Logan's dialogue sounded almost exactly like Sabretooth's (a neat nod to them being two sides of the same coin; Logan with his morality/conscience repressed essentially becomes Creed), but other than that the issue was nothing special. Hopefully the AOA and Deadly Genesis What If's will be better. I love the What If concept, but these three recent ones all felt a little phoned-in and were underwhelming, imo.

[Fats Tuesday]

I've never understood the bitching about stuff in What Ifs? Surely the point of them is to explore to consequences and tell a story after a hypothetical event happens. So this book is not about whether Wolverine could have killed all those superheroes, and it's not saying it's actually possible for Wolverine to do that, it's simply about a story that happens if he did kill them, i.e. What If?

[Blight]

Next up for Wolverine.... killing a Celestial.

Sssh you're spoiling the 07 storyline for X-Men when they fight Apocalypse and the Celestials. :p Honestly, this Magneto, Sue, and Capt were tame and just designed to die at Logan's hand.

In all honesty either three could take him down even if Hydra teleported him around. As someone said earlier Magneto wouldn't bother with simply taking down the messager. He's more full of wrath then skillful precission. :rolleyes: Oh and there are good What If tales and there are bad What If tales. This was one of the bad ones.

[jmc247]

As someone said earlier Magneto wouldn't bother with simply taking down the messager. He's more full of wrath then skillful precission. :rolleyes:

I said that Magneto would have found out where Hydria's base was and dropped a 25 mile-wide astroid on it.

That said I could believe Wolverine taking down some of them. Cap, Spiderman, and many of the others.

Sue Storm however could explode Wolverine's brain in his head with a thought. Magneto quite litterly could tear Wolverine apart with a thought.

[Chris Thomas]

i seriously can´t believe all the controversy in this thread. the wolverine bash reflex. he is in a lot of comics and 3 movies, it´s not like they advertise him before every news flash.
what do you expect from a "what if" book? what if wolverine liked red jackets better than brown jackets? it´s always over the top and mostly likely directed at a younger peer group. and yes, i think the gambit/gladiator example shows the limitations a wif-book should have pretty good. but since wolverine only killed people that can be cut > what the heck?
the only problem is definitly the hulk, but since the symbiote could take over the hulk, which i think should be impossible in canon books, who cares?




I think the real problem here is that this is what wolverine has become as reflected in this comic (I know 'what ifs' are all about fantasy, but the premise starts in reality.)

1. immortal
2. can kill anyone.

when I was reading wolv in the late seventies/early eighties, that was not what he was all about. seems wolve's has become a god. if that is so then marvel needs to make some villians worthy of him--like put some claws on galactus

[JuanJohnboy]

I think the real problem here is that this is what wolverine has become as reflected in this comic (I know 'what ifs' are all about fantasy, but the premise starts in reality.)

1. immortal
2. can kill anyone.

when I was reading wolv in the late seventies/early eighties, that was not what he was all about. seems wolve's has become a god. if that is so then marvel needs to make some villians worthy of him--like put some claws on galactus

this is true

[Omega Alpha]

I think the real problem here is that this is what wolverine has become as reflected in this comic (I know 'what ifs' are all about fantasy, but the premise starts in reality.)

1. immortal
2. can kill anyone.

when I was reading wolv in the late seventies/early eighties, that was not what he was all about. seems wolve's has become a god. if that is so then marvel needs to make some villians worthy of him--like put some claws on galactus

Quoted for truth.

[sherlockbones]

I think the real problem here is that this is what wolverine has become as reflected in this comic (I know 'what ifs' are all about fantasy, but the premise starts in reality.)

1. immortal
2. can kill anyone.

when I was reading wolv in the late seventies/early eighties, that was not what he was all about. seems wolve's has become a god. if that is so then marvel needs to make some villians worthy of him--like put some claws on galactus

so basically you say wolverine books need better writing? i would agree

[Katie]

Ridiculous is the best word to describe this book. Wolverine took out Sue and Magneto? Both of them can put up personal forcefields and they knew that the Hand was teleporting Wolverine to get closer to them. The writer was being lazy and that annoys me.

[Beast]

Finally read the spoilers since I'm skipping the book. Man, am I glad I skipped the book. :rolleyes:

[jmc247]

Ridiculous is the best word to describe this book. Wolverine took out Sue and Magneto? Both of them can put up personal forcefields and they knew that the Hand was teleporting Wolverine to get closer to them. The writer was being lazy and that annoys me.

Sue and Magneto together probably can justifiably fight off just about all the Marvel heroes fighting at the same time as happened in that Marvel Zombies version of Fantastic Four. Magneto alone has taken on both the Avengers and X-Men at the same time on many occasions.

[jmc247]

no wait this was beyond ridiculous..... i just noticed Thor is down in the cover...

At least Thor doesn't have his own personal shields.

[Tobias March]

You know what the ending should have been? That the heroes after suffering a number of casualties are forced to kill Wolverine together. Put him down like a wild animal. This Kitty Pryde last one standing thing just doesn't work.

[Omega Alpha]

You know what the ending should have been? That the heroes after suffering a number of casualties are forced to kill Wolverine together. Put him down like a wild animal. This Kitty Pryde last one standing thing just doesn't work.

Yes, that would be what anyone who's not a insane Wolverine fanboy would say is the reasonable thing to do. After killing several heroes, all or nearly all street-levers, members from the X-men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc, unite to kill him. Instead we have Wolverine taking down Magneto and Sue Richards at the same time and killing the entire MU, including Hulk, Sentry and Dr. Strange:rolleyes:

[Alan2099]

All the Wolverine hate in this thread is almost as intertaining as the book itself.
What did you all want to see? What if Wolvrine got knocked out in one punch by Spider-man?

I really just can't understand this mindset. COmics are filled with people taking on characters that should be out of their level.

Take the story for what it is. It's just meant to be fun. It's not meant to make everybody look like losers. It's not meant to make Wolverine a god amongst men. It's just a fun little throw down.

People die like flies in What if issues. Relax and go with the flow. Who knows, if you're not trying to pick apart every little thing you might actually enjoy yourself.

[rwsmith]

Yes, that would be what anyone who's not a insane Wolverine fanboy would say is the reasonable thing to do.

Actually, I am an insane Wolverine fanboy and even I feel that they should've been trying to kill him and not deprogram him. But it doesn't bother me that he took out Sue and Magneto because he did have the Hydra upgrades, and this is only a What If... after all.

This type of over-the-top stuff is pretty much a hallmark for this title. Always has been.

[Tobias March]

All the Wolverine hate in this thread is almost as intertaining as the book itself.

Do people really hate Wolverine? I think the majority hate how he's written. Correct this is a What If - and Millar already wrote him as a bloodthirsty murderer (who admittedly was redeemed). So wouldn't it have been more interesting for a desperate MU community to decide once and for all to put an end to Logan? It would never be easy, but would certainly make a gripping story.

[jmc247]

People die like flies in What if issues. Relax and go with the flow. Who knows, if you're not trying to pick apart every little thing you might actually enjoy yourself.

Most of this annoyance has less to do with the comic itself and a hell of alot more to how it reflects how Wolverine has been written in the rest of Marvel comics for a few years now.

[jmc247]

Actually, I am an insane Wolverine fanboy and even I feel that they should've been trying to kill him and not deprogram him.


Certainly... After Wolverine killed Ben, her brother, and Reed I can bet that Sue Storm would have been very much in bloodlust mode. And, Magneto after Wolverine killed his family wouldn't be nicely asking Cap if maybe they should kill him.

Instead Magneto would be out exterminating the leadership of Hydra like bugs.

[Sean Whitmore]

All the Wolverine hate in this thread is almost as intertaining as the book itself.
What did you all want to see? What if Wolvrine got knocked out in one punch by Spider-man?

I really just can't understand this mindset. COmics are filled with people taking on characters that should be out of their level.

Take the story for what it is. It's just meant to be fun. It's not meant to make everybody look like losers. It's not meant to make Wolverine a god amongst men. It's just a fun little throw down.

People die like flies in What if issues. Relax and go with the flow. Who knows, if you're not trying to pick apart every little thing you might actually enjoy yourself.


Jesus. Will you...will you marry me? Right here, right now?


SEAN

[pharoahe22]

I agree totally with Alan2099. And it's really not that far fetched for Logan to take down some of those heroes that were way more powerful than him. Sure, people like Magneto and Sue Storm are wayyy more powerful...and Logan is way out of his league when he faces them...but, Logan can cut all of them if he has the right opening....and I'm sure none of them were used to Logan teleporting. The point of What If's is that this is a possibility...one of a million possible outcomes. Are people saying, out of the millions of possible outcomes in any situation that this could not have possibly happened? It could've been executed better, but you can't really say anything's impossible in the world of comicdome. Logan's not going to defeat Galactus or the celestials, but saying that Logan couldn't kill people that he can cut given the right opportunity is non-sense. He could've killed some of the more powerful heroes in their sleep...you never find out how he kills the Sentry or some of the others...imagine Logan with no conscious, teleportation, and claws that can cut through anything...he'd be going for the kill, so all he would need is one opening. It's really not that far fetched, though it could have been written better :)

[jmc247]

Logan's not going to defeat Galactus or the celestials, but saying that Logan couldn't kill people that he can cut given the right opportunity is non-sense.

We can only hope.

Let me put it this way I would put Sue Storm and Magneto fighting together over even major threats to the universe like Annihilus. Don't get me wrong I like that Sue Storm and Magneto were in the comic and I can buy that they could be taken down, just not at the same time.

[Omega Alpha]

Most of this annoyance has less to do with the comic itself and a hell of alot more to how it reflects how Wolverine has been written in the rest of Marvel comics for a few years now.

That's exactly the idea, but most are pretending to not see. It's not on bad What If issues he has been shown to do stuff like that, unfortunately. I'm sure that is only a matter of time Wolverine is elevated to Superman levels, and defeat Apocalypse and Sinister by himself. :(

[Sean Whitmore]

That's exactly the idea, but most are pretending to not see.

No, we just realize how insignificant it is and choose not to whine about it quite so much.


SEAN

[Frodo-X]

No, we just realize how insignificant it is and choose not to whine about it quite so much.


SEAN

I'm one of the 'we' Sean is referring to.


Just figured I'd mention it so nobody thought he was talking like Venom.:p

[jrrl]

The way Kitty offed him. Hardcore!!!:D


Hardcore, indeed. I also felt it was realistic that Kitty would not try to deprogram him. She knows him too well. People tend to discount Kitty, but she is smart and tough when push comes to shove.

That said, waaaaaay earlier the rest of the MU would have decided to just waste Logan as well. Such is What If... Still nice to see Kitty get the kill shot, tho.

-John.

[Sean Whitmore]

Hardcore, indeed. I also felt it was realistic that Kitty would not try to deprogram him. She knows him too well. People tend to discount Kitty, but she is smart and tough when push comes to shove.

Unless I'm overestimating her control over her powers, you'd think she would be able to phase Wolverine's brain out of his skull without losing her arm. But then, What Ifs never miss the opportunity to kill or mutilate. :)


SEAN

[James 'Logan' Howlett]

So what we have here is a bunch of Wolverine haters complaining about the story (even though it is a What If?) and yet...

NO ONE IS EVEN MENTIONING THE FACT THAT THIS BOOK HAD 24 ****ING ADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that's right. 24 pages were ads and 22 pages were story.

After reading this issue and having to skip so many ****ing ads I did the following.

1. Swore a lot out loud to myself.
2. Looked over the last Wolverine What If that was done a year ago and it had 24 pages of story and only 7 pages of ads.
3. Looked over an old G.I. Joe comic from the 80's and it had 22 pages of story and 8 pages of ads.
4. Went into other room and found my list for pulls that I use each week.
5. Marked off about 10 Marvel titles that I was going to buy.
6. Went online and posted here.


I enjoyed the story a lot simply because it is a "What if?" type of deal. There are already WAY too many problems in the regular Wolverine series to complain about so any problems that were in this fake story didn't bother me.

The ads did though.

I'll have to look over the last few weeks of books that I purchased (all companies, not just Marvel) and look at the story to ad ratio for pages. If they are also ridiculous then I'll be dropping more books from them as well.

I read comics for the stories...Not for a bunch of ****ing ads! This is also why I don't watch nearly as much TV as I used to and either download episodes or wait and buy the DVD sets (and even some of them have advertisements in the beginning!!).

Rant over.

[Sean Whitmore]

NO ONE IS EVEN MENTIONING THE FACT THAT THIS BOOK HAD 24 ****ING ADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think there might be a thread for that.

Sure, it sucks, but it's like that with nearly all the books now.


SEAN

[James 'Logan' Howlett]

I think there might be a thread for that.

Sure, it sucks, but it's like that with nearly all the books now.


SEAN

Really? If there is, can you give me the link. I'd like to read it.

[Sean Whitmore]

Really? If there is, can you give me the link. I'd like to read it.

Here ya go. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=95038&highlight=advertisements) I didn't realize how old it was, though. But it makes sense, since Marvel goes ad-crazy about this time every year.


SEAN

[jmc247]

That's exactly the idea, but most are pretending to not see. It's not on bad What If issues he has been shown to do stuff like that, unfortunately. I'm sure that is only a matter of time Wolverine is elevated to Superman levels, and defeat Apocalypse and Sinister by himself. :(

We aren't the only ones who see it, I was reading a major reviewer about this What if who was annoyed just like we are.

The reviewer said that he knows Wolverine is a good fighter but he is not God, he then went into say even Thanos would have big trouble taking Sue Storm and Magneto down at the same time.

[rogue_kiss]

All I can say (other than it was pretty gory at the end - yet not offensive to me) was that I was so proud of Kitty! It's so rare that we actually get to see her in a strong role, not to mention that it threw in some drama with her having to take out her former mentor.

I thought this was an excellent read.

[jmc247]

I will say that I liked the art and I liked alot about the story including bring in Sue Strom and Magneto.

My main problem is they could have have had a better more plausable way for Wolverine to kill them. Like after they spring their trap they wait 8 hours and Wolverine doesn't show, and the second they are leaving the building Magneto goes to get some water or something and Wolverine teleports behind him and cuts of his head or something like that.

[Alan2099]

ANother thing you have to remember is that in a regualr comic, you'd probably get several issues of setting up exactly how and why Wolverine would be able to take down Sue and magneto. They'd have that as a good part of the focus. What ifs don't have that luxary.

Instead of getting the full story, you get the abbridged version. They have to move faster.

[Alan2099]

ANother thing you have to remember is that in a regualr comic, you'd probably get several issues of setting up exactly how and why Wolverine would be able to take down Sue and magneto. They'd have that as a good part of the focus. What ifs don't have that luxary.

Instead of getting the full story, you get the abbridged version. They have to move faster.

[Omega Alpha]

Or you can do better: simply DON'T have Wolverine killing Sue Storm, Magneto, and the entire Marvel Universe behaving themselves as a bunch of incompetent or retarded people:rolleyes:

[Sean Whitmore]

Or you can do better: simply DON'T have Wolverine killing Sue Storm, Magneto, and the entire Marvel Universe behaving themselves as a bunch of incompetent or retarded people:rolleyes:

In other words, don't publish the comic at all. Good business move.


SEAN

[Omega Alpha]

In other words, don't publish the comic at all. Good business move.

No, instead of making the entire Marvel Universe looking like retards, just have Wolverine killing only some heroes he can realistically take (like it appeared to be the case in the preview, which turned out to be untrue), and then the main heroes of the MU join to take him down. Or simply make what was the idea in the Enemy of the State: Wolverine kills some of other big names on Hydra list, and then those big names kill others, and so on. For example: Wolverine kills Tony Stark (without the Iron Suit). Then brainwashed Stark (with the Iron Man suit) kills, let's say, the rest of the Astonishing X-men. Then, brainwashed Stark and brainwashed Astonishing X-men kill, for example, the Fantastic Four, etc. It doesn't take much effort, and it could be done in 23 pages. Instead we have Wolverine taking down Magneto, Sue Richards, Hulk and Dr. Strange.:rolleyes:

[Frodo-X]

And then he kills two friends.

And they kill two friends.

And so on.
And so on.
And so on..



Yeah, that would've made for a very stupid book, in my opinion.

[jmc247]

And then he kills two friends.

And they kill two friends.

And so on.
And so on.
And so on..

Yeah, that would've made for a very stupid book, in my opinion.

That was exactly what the What If Wolverine King of the Vampires did.

[Omega Alpha]

And then he kills two friends.

And they kill two friends.

And so on.
And so on.
And so on..



Yeah, that would've made for a very stupid book, in my opinion.

The only thing we saw on panel was he killing two friends and one enemy. Yeah, that's sooooooooo much better:rolleyes:

[Frodo-X]

Didn't say this one was spectacular, just said that one wouldn't be.

[Omega Alpha]

Didn't say this one was spectacular, just said that one wouldn't be.

Wolverine fighting, let's say, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Black Panther, Moon Knight, Cap. America, etc, could not be? Or heroes fighting The Hand? In the worse case scenario, it would still be better than Wolverine taking down Invisible Woman and Magneto at the same time.

[superclerk]

Wolverine actually kills the Silver Surfer in another "What if?" issue... it was something like "What if Galactus invades the Age of Apocalypse?" , i read it a long time ago but he kills him in the moon... in a base made by Tony Stark. Sad but true... he stabs him T_T.

Logan killed the Surfer? Good grief this is getting stupid. The thought of Logan KILLING most of the Marvel Universe is just as stupid. I can understand Hulk or Thor going through the MU but not Logan. I like Cap and Spidey however, there are some folks they shouldn't be able to take out.

[Broken Tusk]

Ive been watching Wolverine carve people up religiously for 12 years. The controversy over what Wolverine can and cant do started when the X-Men movie was unleashed. Wolverine has been going toe to toe with powerful characters like the Hulk since day 1, and nobody complained.

In 1999, Logan defeated Green Hulk in Wolverine #145 and nobody cried about it. Now, if Wolverine defeats Namor, or the Thing its a big controversy with some people. In almost every comic book forum, theres almost always an explosion of Wolverine hate threads with people making absurd statements that are easily discredited with solid evidence.

How weak does the character have to be portrayed untill some of you are satisfied? Joss Whedon's portrayal of Wolverine's abilities is already inconsistant to the Wolverine weve seen for more than 2 decades. Wolverine was alot tougher during Claremont and Byrne's run, and Whedon's Wolverine doesnt even compare to Jim Lee or Fabian Nicieza's version.

Logan is not weak, never was weak, and was never intended to be weak.

[brundlefly]

Wolverine actually kills the Silver Surfer in another "What if?" issue... it was something like "What if Galactus invades the Age of Apocalypse?" , i read it a long time ago but he kills him in the moon... in a base made by Tony Stark. Sad but true... he stabs him T_T.

Wasn't that a double-KO, though? I might well be remembering it wrong (and someone correct me if I am), but I thought Logan pierced the Surfer's chest with his claws, but that ruptured his shell and the Power Cosmic then came pouring out and scoured Logan down to his adamantium skeleton and killed him, too. I buy Logan basically sacrificing himself in that manner to stop the Surfer (who was Galactus' "evil" herald and trying to kill the AOA heroes at the time), particularly under the parameters of a What If, where everyone dies more easily than they would in 616 anyway, than the idea of Logan just stabbing and killing the Surfer and then walking away unharmed, which is hard to swallow.

[Omega Alpha]

Ive been watching Wolverine carve people up religiously for 12 years. The controversy over what Wolverine can and cant do started when the X-Men movie was unleashed. Wolverine has been going toe to toe with powerful characters like the Hulk since day 1, and nobody complained.

In 1999, Logan defeated Green Hulk in Wolverine #145 and nobody cried about it. Now, if Wolverine defeats Namor, or the Thing its a big controversy with some people. In almost every comic book forum, theres almost always an explosion of Wolverine hate threads with people making absurd statements that are easily discredited with solid evidence.

How weak does the character have to be portrayed untill some of you are satisfied? Joss Whedon's portrayal of Wolverine's abilities is already inconsistant to the Wolverine weve seen for more than 2 decades. Wolverine was alot tougher during Claremont and Byrne's run, and Whedon's Wolverine doesnt even compare to Jim Lee or Fabian Nicieza's version.

Logan is not weak, never was weak, and was never intended to be weak.

Wolverine defeated Green Hulk?:confused: Oh, and in day one, his first issue, he was knocked down by the Hulk with one punch. That is what should happen.

And find one poster asking Wolverine to be defeated by Jubilee or one of the Runaways. No one is saying that. But the thing is he's becoming quickly the male version of Squirrel Girl, but not for comedy purposes. He should put up a good match and sometimes or, depending of the opponent, most of the time, defeat Cap. America, Spider-Man, Deadpool, Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, etc. But he's not a class 100 or an uber-powerful reality warper, he shouldn't be fighting Hulk, The Thing or Namor, much less the freakin' Silver Surfer, a guy who could arguably solo the JLA, or killing the entire MU. Spider-Man fans are sometimes even embarassed by him defeating Firelord, which has became the symbol of jobbering in comics. Wolverine fanboys (not fans, who are the ones which like the character for who he is, not because of whom he fights) often seem to love to see him taking down adversaries way out of his league by PIS, and like him only because (they think so) he can take down Hercules or Thor.

[jmc247]

Spider-Man fans are sometimes even embarassed by him defeating Firelord, which has became the symbol of jobbering in comics. Wolverine fanboys (not fans, who are the ones which like the character for who he is, not because of whom he fights) often seem to love to see him taking down adversaries way out of his league by PIS, and like him only because (they think so) he can take down Hercules or Thor.

Its one thing taking down an adversary that is alot better then you. On any given day I can tell you that even the best wrestler (real not professional) can screw up and lose to someone they shouldn't have lost to. But, within reason of course. A good D1 wrestler if he has a real bad day can lose to a great D3 wrestler, and its even possible, but highly unlikely to have a good D1 wrestler lose to best of the nations high school wrestlers. I have seen it happen before.

However, having Wolverine beat Magneto and Sue Storm at the same time is the equivlent of having a high school wrestler beat two top D1 wrestlers at the same time. Short of an act of God it simply isn't going to happen.

[Sean Whitmore]

Spider-Man fans are sometimes even embarassed by him defeating Firelord, which has became the symbol of jobbering in comics.

Please don't wrangle in the regular Spider-Man fans with this jobbering, rumbling mentality that some people have going on. Most of us just look at it as a fun story where the hero of the book triumphs despite overwhelming odds.


SEAN

[Omega Alpha]

Please don't wrangle in the regular Spider-Man fans with this jobbering, rumbling mentality that some people have going on. Most of us just look at it as a fun story where the hero of the book triumphs despite overwhelming odds.


There's a difference between overwhelming odds and impossible. It's great to have Wolverine defeating Lady Deathstrike or Sabretooth, Spider-Man defeating Doc Octopus or Venom, or the New X-men defeating... i don't know, somebody, but when you have them beating people too out of your league it's hard to suspend your disbelief or take the story seriously. Plus, if you have Wolverine defeating Magneto (yes, is non canonical, but i just want to give an example), Spider-Man beating Firelord, or the New X-men defeating Nimrod, how the hell we are going to see any of them as a serious threat when they fight the entire X-men team or the Silver Surfer (in FL's case)? It ends up lowering the adversaries potential as a threat, and/or making the winner too high, and ultimately making everyone affected not being able to fight people on the same league as they were. How we're going to see ninjas as serious opponents to Wolverine when he takes down Savage Hulk? :confused:

[JuanJohnboy]

Wasn't that a double-KO, though? I might well be remembering it wrong (and someone correct me if I am), but I thought Logan pierced the Surfer's chest with his claws, but that ruptured his shell and the Power Cosmic then came pouring out and scoured Logan down to his adamantium skeleton and killed him, too. I buy Logan basically sacrificing himself in that manner to stop the Surfer (who was Galactus' "evil" herald and trying to kill the AOA heroes at the time), particularly under the parameters of a What If, where everyone dies more easily than they would in 616 anyway, than the idea of Logan just stabbing and killing the Surfer and then walking away unharmed, which is hard to swallow.


I read that issue years ago but yes i still remember we have Logan, Tony Stark and Gwen Stacy(who was having a romance thing with Quicksilver) in that secret base at the moon, then we have the Silver Surfer attacking their base with his Cosmics Blasts, afterwards he gets knocked out temporarly with a missile turret and goes down , he survives of course and proceeds to infiltrate the base and attempt s to attack Logan. Gwen Stacy then screams "LOGAN watch out with the alien he is behind you!!!" , then Logan says "Don't worry I´ve been smelling this one since he entered this base" and then we see wolvie piercing SS stomach(or chest? i dont remember it exactly) saying " I don´t care how hard that silver skin of yours is, nothing can resist the adamantium claws!" , and then the SS dies -_-.

[Broken Tusk]

Wolverine defeated Green Hulk?:confused: Oh, and in day one, his first issue, he was knocked down by the Hulk with one punch. That is what should happen.

And find one poster asking Wolverine to be defeated by Jubilee or one of the Runaways. No one is saying that. But the thing is he's becoming quickly the male version of Squirrel Girl, but not for comedy purposes. He should put up a good match and sometimes or, depending of the opponent, most of the time, defeat Cap. America, Spider-Man, Deadpool, Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, etc. But he's not a class 100 or an uber-powerful reality warper, he shouldn't be fighting Hulk, The Thing or Namor, much less the freakin' Silver Surfer, a guy who could arguably solo the JLA, or killing the entire MU. Spider-Man fans are sometimes even embarassed by him defeating Firelord, which has became the symbol of jobbering in comics. Wolverine fanboys (not fans, who are the ones which like the character for who he is, not because of whom he fights) often seem to love to see him taking down adversaries way out of his league by PIS, and like him only because (they think so) he can take down Hercules or Thor.

Wolverine has been stalemating the Hulk for decades. You may not like it, but thats how its always been.

[Omega Alpha]

Wolverine has been stalemating the Hulk for decades. You may not like it, but thats how its always been.

Like i said, in their first fight, Wolverine was one-punched. However, writers keep trying to make fanboys masturbating of emotion by trying to put him on a fight against the Hulk, but is still not believable. As much as is not believable him killing the Silver Surfer, or Spider-Man defeating Firelord, or Sentry stalemating Galactus. And the funny thing is that, Wolverine stalemates the Hulk, but later on Juggs takes down him and the rest of the X-men easily, and on the next fight Juggs loses or has serious difficulties to beat the Hulk (he only defeated Professor Hulk, i think), and Wolverine loses to Spider-Man, Sabretooth or Cap. America. Wolverine's capacities seem to variate from opponent to opponent or whether he's on a team or not.:rolleyes:

[Broken Tusk]

Like i said, in their first fight, Wolverine was one-punched. However, writers keep trying to make fanboys masturbating of emotion by trying to put him on a fight against the Hulk, but is still not believable. As much as is not believable him killing the Silver Surfer, or Spider-Man defeating Firelord, or Sentry stalemating Galactus. And the funny thing is that, Wolverine stalemates the Hulk, but later on Juggs takes down him and the rest of the X-men easily, and on the next fight Juggs loses or has serious difficulties to beat the Hulk (he only defeated Professor Hulk, i think), and Wolverine loses to Spider-Man, Sabretooth or Cap. America. Wolverine's capacities seem to variate from opponent to opponent or whether he's on a team or not.:rolleyes:

In their first scrap Hulk punched Wolverine when he was looking in the other direction. It was a fairly long fight. I dont recall Logan ever losing to Cap. I dont see how that would be possible. Anyways, heres the battle where Green Hulk loses to Wolverine.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1492.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1494.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1495.jpg

[Broken Tusk]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1496.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1497.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1498.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1499.jpg

[Broken Tusk]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1501.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1502.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1503.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1504.jpg

[Broken Tusk]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1505.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1506.jpg

[Omega Alpha]

Wolverine's claws hurting Hulk, specially if it is War Hulk (was he still War Hulk at that time?) = PIS, just like him hurting the Silver Surfer. Although this kind of thing doesn't happen only to Wolverine; for example almost everytime he fights the Hulk, Thor seems to forget that he can do stuff like fly, control the weather, or teleport.

[Broken Tusk]

Wolverine's claws hurting Hulk, specially if it is War Hulk (was he still War Hulk at that time?) = PIS, just like him hurting the Silver Surfer. Although this kind of thing doesn't happen only to Wolverine; for example almost everytime he fights the Hulk, Thor seems to forget that he can do stuff like fly, control the weather, or teleport.

PIS is Doc Oc still standing after hes been punched by Spider Man. PIS is Nightwing overwelming Azrael. PIS is a watered down Magneto defeating Apocalypse in the AOA. PIS is no X-Man being killed during a battle with Nimrod.

If Wolverine can cut through Nimrod's "super structure" he can cut the Hulk. Very few things Logan cant cut. Vibranium, Carbonadium, Adamantium, Juggernaut's forcefield, Caps Shield, Thor's Mjolnir, and Magneto's forcefield are some examples.

[Jake V]

Wasn't one the defining elements of Wolverine's claws that they could pretty much cut through anything?

I mean, this is not a new development. Hulk may be super-durable, but his skin isn't stronger than Uru or Adamantium.

[Sean Whitmore]

Wolverine's claws hurting Hulk = PIS

So who's being made stupid in that scene, Wolverine's claws or Hulk's skin?

I've got one. Bruce Banner turning into the Hulk instead of developing a hyper-deadly gamma-cancer = PIS.


SEAN

[Jake V]

So who's being made stupid in that scene, Wolverine's claws or Hulk's skin?

I've got one. Bruce Banner turning into the Hulk instead of developing a hyper-deadly gamma-cancer = PIS.


SEAN

Bruce Banner LIVING through getting hit by a nuke = PIS.

[Omega Alpha]

Wasn't one the defining elements of Wolverine's claws that they could pretty much cut through anything?

I mean, this is not a new development. Hulk may be super-durable, but his skin isn't stronger than Uru or Adamantium.

But it doesn't mean that Wolverine should be able to cut him. Adamantium can cut nearly everything, but it depends on who's using it or the strength used. Wolverine's strength is not superhuman. If it was, let's say, Colossus, the Thing or even Beast with adamantium claws, it would make sense, but not him.


So who's being made stupid in that scene, Wolverine's claws or Hulk's skin?

The writers.

[Broken Tusk]

Like I said, all this Wolverine hate didnt start untill the X-Men movie was unleashed. I dont remember there being a controversy over Wolverine cutting the Hulk in the 90's. :rolleyes:

[Jake V]

But it doesn't mean that Wolverine should be able to cut him. Adamantium can cut nearly everything, but it depends on who's using it or the strength used. Wolverine's strength is not superhuman. If it was, let's say, Colossus, the Thing or even Beast with adamantium claws, it would make sense, but not him.
Wolverine's strength IS somewhat superhuman due to the fact that he's got an unbreakable metal supporting his skeleton, and an advanced musculature capable of moving such a metal, and he's got enough strength to slash the Hulk with his unbelievably sharp claws.

[Broken Tusk]

But it doesn't mean that Wolverine should be able to cut him. Adamantium can cut nearly everything, but it depends on who's using it or the strength used. Wolverine's strength is not superhuman. If it was, let's say, Colossus, the Thing or even Beast with adamantium claws, it would make sense, but not him.




The writers.

Wolverine is a level 4 in strength (enhanced human: 900 lbs.- 2 ton range). Marvel says Logan's healing powers and adamantium skeleton enhance his strength by countering what they call "fatigue poisons". The adamantium enables him to lift several hundred pounds more than he could without it.

[Broken Tusk]

Heres an illustration of his strength.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1520.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/IMG_1521.jpg

[jmc247]

Alot of Wolverine fanboys on other boards were not happy about this "what if" because Wolverine didn't kick enough butt and got taken down to 'easy'.

I was looking forward the the deadly genesis one too, but like you, unimpressed by Wolverine's what if. Yeah.. I know wolverine isn't immortal and I know he can die.. but it just seems like it would take a LOT more than that. So what?? He got his brain mixed up... he only needs a cell or two to regenerate.. his whole body was there.. and why was his face all messed up?? Maybe they did forget a few panels. It was an ok story.. no.. no it wasn't. I wanted Wolverine to go toe to toe with a lot heroes and kick some butt. I would have liked it to end with him alive and very evil leaving us with a fear of him. This was NOT what I would have thought things would be like if he wasn't deprogrammed.

http://www.thexverse.com/community/showthread.php?p=50559

[Sean Whitmore]

Alot of Wolverine fanboys on other boards were not happy about this "what if" because Wolverine didn't kick enough butt and got taken down to 'easy'.

Just goes to show there's plenty of whining on both sides of the street.


SEAN

[jmc247]

Just goes to show there's plenty of whining on both sides of the street.


SEAN

It makes one wonder what would it mean for them to have Wolverine really kick ass.

[Omega Alpha]

Like I said, all this Wolverine hate didnt start untill the X-Men movie was unleashed. I dont remember there being a controversy over Wolverine cutting the Hulk in the 90's. :rolleyes:

I didn't KNOW Wolverine defeated the Hulk in the 90's. I don't care the rest, i still think is bullsh*t.

[DoctorDoom]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but it reminds me of "What if the X-Men lost the Inferno?" where Wolverine was demonized, killed Cap. Spidey, some mystics (including Baron Mordo), And Kitty (her death snapped him out of it), and ate a baby. Ate. A. Freakin. Baby.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but it reminds me of "What if the X-Men lost the Inferno?" where Wolverine was demonized, killed Cap. Spidey, some mystics (including Baron Mordo), And Kitty (her death snapped him out of it), and ate a baby. Ate. A. Freakin. Baby.

Too bad the internet wasn't around then, the posts would've rocked.

"Wolverine shouldn't have been able to eat that baby!"
"I can't believe it took Wolverine that LONG to eat the baby!"


SEAN

[pharoahe22]

Wolverine defeated Green Hulk?:confused: Oh, and in day one, his first issue, he was knocked down by the Hulk with one punch. That is what should happen.

And find one poster asking Wolverine to be defeated by Jubilee or one of the Runaways. No one is saying that. But the thing is he's becoming quickly the male version of Squirrel Girl, but not for comedy purposes. He should put up a good match and sometimes or, depending of the opponent, most of the time, defeat Cap. America, Spider-Man, Deadpool, Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, etc. But he's not a class 100 or an uber-powerful reality warper, he shouldn't be fighting Hulk, The Thing or Namor, much less the freakin' Silver Surfer, a guy who could arguably solo the JLA, or killing the entire MU. Spider-Man fans are sometimes even embarassed by him defeating Firelord, which has became the symbol of jobbering in comics. Wolverine fanboys (not fans, who are the ones which like the character for who he is, not because of whom he fights) often seem to love to see him taking down adversaries way out of his league by PIS, and like him only because (they think so) he can take down Hercules or Thor.


Ok...1, Wolverine wasn't fighting the Silver Surfer...The silver surfer tried to sneak up on him and kill him, and Wolverine turned around and stabbed him...that's how it happened...they didn't fight or anything man. No one would say that Wolverine could fight the Surfer...he didn't DEFEAT him...but apparently, Wolverine CAN puncture the surfer's skin. 2, Wolverine has knocked Hercules on his ass twice along with plenty of others on that level. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Wolverine CAN fight people on the Thing's level than against it. I don't understand why you don't think it's plausible for Wolverine to defeat someone who just has super strength. Wolverine has super-human agility, rated one level below spider-man....on the same level as Cap...so he could easily avoid blows from people like the Thing and Hercules. If he does take a hit, his healing factor and adamantium skeleton take the brunt of the blow...you say that he shouldn't be able to take a hit, but if you think about it, his first appearance, he was fighting against Wendigo and the Hulk...so his very first appearance set up the fact that he could battle that type of opponent. He's also trained in every style of h2h combat known to man, so he's a much better fighter. What you're saying doesn't really make any sense man.

Wolverine's not going to beat someone like Thor, who has ranged powers and flight...but someone like the Thing? He can take a punch, he's faster, more agile, AND he's a better fighter, so it wouldn't make sense for him NOT to be able to take him down...at least some of the time. Namor lost to Wolverine because he decided to go blow for blow with him instead of fighting intelligently. If Namor used his flight to his advantage, he would probably win...but it's not wise to go toe to toe with someone who has 1 ft claws that can cut through anything unless you have some type of healing factor, which he doesn't. No one bitched about Cap taking 20 punches from Iron Man...but when Wolverine takes a punch...even with his unbreakable bones and healing factor, people complain...which doesn't make sense to me. :cool:

[DoctorDoom]

Ok...1, Wolverine wasn't fighting the Silver Surfer...The silver surfer tried to sneak up on him and kill him, and Wolverine turned around and stabbed him...that's how it happened...they didn't fight or anything man. No one would say that Wolverine could fight the Surfer...he didn't DEFEAT him...but apparently, Wolverine CAN puncture the surfer's skin. 2, Wolverine has knocked Hercules on his ass twice along with plenty of others on that level. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Wolverine CAN fight people on the Thing's level than against it. I don't understand why you don't think it's plausible for Wolverine to defeat someone who just has super strength. Wolverine has super-human agility, rated one level below spider-man....on the same level as Cap...so he could easily avoid blows from people like the Thing and Hercules. If he does take a hit, his healing factor and adamantium skeleton take the brunt of the blow...you say that he shouldn't be able to take a hit, but if you think about it, his first appearance, he was fighting against Wendigo and the Hulk...so his very first appearance set up the fact that he could battle that type of opponent. He's also trained in every style of h2h combat known to man, so he's a much better fighter. What you're saying doesn't really make any sense man.

Wolverine's not going to beat someone like Thor, who has ranged powers and flight...but someone like the Thing? He can take a punch, he's faster, more agile, AND he's a better fighter, so it wouldn't make sense for him NOT to be able to take him down...at least some of the time. Namor lost to Wolverine because he decided to go blow for blow with him instead of fighting intelligently. If Namor used his flight to his advantage, he would probably win...but it's not wise to go toe to toe with someone who has 1 ft claws that can cut through anything unless you have some type of healing factor, which he doesn't. No one bitched about Cap taking 20 punches from Iron Man...but when Wolverine takes a punch...even with his unbreakable bones and healing factor, people complain...which doesn't make sense to me. :cool:
Wolvie vs Surfer happened as a what if, so it doesn't count. As far as real continuity is concerned, these 2 haven't faced off yet....and probably never will.

[rwsmith]

Just goes to show there's plenty of whining on both sides of the street.

SEAN

Too much IMO. As a self-proclaimed Wolverine fanboy, I had no problems with this story. It was simple fun. Nothing more, nothing less. People get way too caught up in the minutiae sometimes. It's a friggin' comic book! Therefore anyone can beat anyone if the writer wants them to and figures out some psuedo-scientific reason for it (e.g., Wolverine taking down the Hulk by stabbing him through his eyes with two claws and puncturing his brain, thus putting him in a temporary coma or something).

I don't like Wolverine to be invincible. I much prefer him to be a smart and skilled tactician. Not on Batman's level or anything like that. More crafty and street smart than brilliant. That's why Wolverine during the brown and tan years (i.e., the 80's) was so cool to me. Since then he's kind of gone downhill as a character, but there are times when a writer comes along who really reminds me of what I love about the guy. Mark Millar, Steve Dillon and Marc Guggenheim have all showcased Wolverine's ability to be sneaky and smart recently, skills that he developed as both an intelligence agent and military operative.

Now if only they would tone Logan's healing factor back down to reasonable levels, things would really be looking up for my favorite character.

[tunasammiches]

Yeah I feel like this healing factor's increased exponentially in the last 3 years. I was wondering if that was a recent development or not and can't remember of any issues from the 80's or early 90's if he ever survived being incinerated to death. And if his healing factor's so powerful how come his hand never grew back in AoA??

[Broken Tusk]

Yeah I feel like this healing factor's increased exponentially in the last 3 years. I was wondering if that was a recent development or not and can't remember of any issues from the 80's or early 90's if he ever survived being incinerated to death. And if his healing factor's so powerful how come his hand never grew back in AoA??

The full story of Wolverine's healing factor hasnt been revealed yet, but heres part of the explanation.

In Wolverine vol3. #43, Wolverine's bodily tissue is incinerated from his skeleton, which rapidly regenerates, due to an explosion caused by Nitro. Wolverine vol3. #48 explains that Wolverine's brain survived the explosion due to the protection offered by his skull. Wolverine's bodily systems, including his nervous and circulatory systems, and all the destroyed tissue completely regenerates within a few minutes. In Excalibur vol. 1 #100, the Xavier Protocols reveal that the removal of adamantium from Wolverine's skeleton increased his healing factor to "incredible levels" and that the only way to kill him is to remove his head from the vicinity of his body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(comics)

[rwsmith]

Yeah, I remember that. But shouldn't the levels have gone back to normal once he got the adamantium back?

I really wish they would. It made him a cooler character IMO.

[jmc247]

Wolverine is interesting because he is a smart fighter who is willing to try to take on anybody even those way out of his class, he is not nearly as interesting as an unkillable superbeing.

[JuanJohnboy]

The sad thing about the current Wolverine is that...

1.- He can kill anyone.
2.- He can´t be killled.

:(

[fishtaco]

Sad, sad, sad.

[Sean Whitmore]

1.- He can kill anyone.
2.- He can´t be killled.

Luckily, neither of those things are allowed to happen anyway, so it's absolutely pointless.


SEAN

[rwsmith]

Wolverine is interesting because he is a smart fighter who is willing to try to take on anybody even those way out of his class, he is not nearly as interesting as an unkillable superbeing.

I think everyone agrees with that statement, including his fans. Now if only Marvel would agree with it.:confused:

[Frodo-X]

What this thread has become:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g101/packratorama/5c6ffb80.gif

[Broken Tusk]

Yeah, I remember that. But shouldn't the levels have gone back to normal once he got the adamantium back?

I really wish they would. It made him a cooler character IMO.

Apparently, Apocalypse removed the poisions that were hindering his HF. Logan is still not unkillable. Like Highlander, he can be killed if his brain is significantley destroyed or if his head is removed (unlikely). He can still be Koed, so its not like hes a god or unbeatable.. Guggenheim isnt the first writer to do this with wolverine.

[jmc247]

The dead horse will be beat again the next time Marvel has Woverine job someone like Gladiator.

[Omega Alpha]

Wolverine is interesting because he is a smart fighter who is willing to try to take on anybody even those way out of his class, he is not nearly as interesting as an unkillable superbeing.

The thing that makes him very interesting as a fighter for me is that there are plenty of people who can be very wild during the fights, like The Hulk, or some able to be thinking almost every second about what he's doing, like Cap. America or Daredevil. Wolverine is one of those few that has been able to keep a balance of both (wildness and skill), and makes him one of the best fighters in the MU. Make him an immortal killing machine takes away all the fun and makes him boring and ordinary.

[Harding Prime]

They didn't show and most of you wouldn't agree, but i think Wolverine could take out the Hulk. Wolverine isn't just a mere street leveler, he basically can't be killed, most everyone else can.

[DDM]

What this thread has become:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g101/packratorama/5c6ffb80.gif

No, that's Marvel beating Wolverine to death with overexposure.

[Sean Whitmore]

No, that's Marvel beating Wolverine to death with overexposure.

Or fans beating the topic to death by bringing it up.


SEAN

[Killing Intent]

I really dont see what all this bitching is about. Wolverine as he is now can wreck a good 90% of the Marvel Universe, including heavyweights like Namor and Thing. Wolverine enhanced, with Hydra support, and with the ability to teleport would kill just about anyone with the exception of true immortals or true invulnerables. Anyone he killed in that comic is someone he could kill in those circumstances.

Spidey, Cap, Moon Knight, Iron Fist, and Cage he could or has beaten before.

Sue he couldn't beat in a straight fight, but with stealth and surprise he could take her, which is exactly what he did.

Mags he can't take in a straight fight either, but he has injured him pretty badly before. Add a teleportation ability and Wolverine would kill Magneto.

Iron Man he couldn't take in most straight fights, but add the teleportation ability and again Wolverine could not only reach him, but get through his force fields, which Spider-Man doesn't seem to have a problem with either for some strange reason. We've already seen Wolverine cut through Tony's armor easily.

Wolverine can normally give Hulk a lot of grief. With teleportation abilities he's going to be that much harder for Hulk to get his hands on, it'll be easy for Wolverine to escape attacks and big green grasping hands, etc. Plus he has world class Reed Richards designed weaponry built and supplied by Hydra.

[rwsmith]

Some people just hate Wolverine. If it were Rogue or Cyclops killing half of the Marvel Universe, they wouldn't bat an eye.

The only thing I have a problem with is how powerful his healing factor has gotten lately. It annoys me because there's no longer any sense of peril for the character (not that I ever thought he was going to die). I used to admire the character for the beating he could take and keep coming back for more, but now he heals almost as fast as he's injured. I really wish Marvel would rectify that. But as for his taking down the Thing, Sue Storm, Magneto, etc., totally believable IMO---especially with the Hydra enhancements.

[pharoahe22]

No, that's Marvel beating Wolverine to death with overexposure.

Wolverine appears in 4 books monthly in the 616...that's not really overexposure...they have cut down...Cap has FAR more recent appearances than Logan, and Spider-man has 20 monthly books...Spidey has his own section on the order sheet...no one ever complains about that lol

[Fastballspecial]

I liked this book. It was very simplistic in nature and the writer didnt try to change a whole lot. Magento was true to form. He never listens to anyone else always his downfall. The only aspect I didnt truly understand is if Kitty died in the end or not. I Loved EOTS when Millar wrote it and I loved this What If as well. It wasnt perfect, but was good enough for a one shot. Instant Trach I loved that one.:D

[jmc247]

Sue he couldn't beat in a straight fight, but with stealth and surprise he could take her, which is exactly what he did.

Mags he can't take in a straight fight either, but he has injured him pretty badly before. Add a teleportation ability and Wolverine would kill Magneto.


Magneto and Sue were standing around like idiots with their personal shields off waiting to trap Wolverine. Sure, I can buy Wolverine with a teleporter could sneak up on and kill Magneto or Sue when they least suspect it. But, both of them have personal shields and both of them knew Wolverine was coming and both of them were in the same room at the same time.

[DDM]

Wolverine appears in 4 books monthly in the 616...that's not really overexposure...they have cut down...Cap has FAR more recent appearances than Logan, and Spider-man has 20 monthly books...Spidey has his own section on the order sheet...no one ever complains about that lol

Four books is a lot of exposure today.

[jmc247]

Four books is a lot of exposure today.

Expecially considering I have to wait months and months to see Magneto even appear in the 616 verse.

Hell, Wolverine got 3 times more lines then Magneto in House of M the series that was supposed to center on Magneto on his family.

[Sean Whitmore]

Expecially considering I have to wait months and months to see Magneto even appear in the 616 verse.

To be fair, you never see the villains get as much exposure as the heroes. The only times Magneto regularly appears anywhere is when Claremont's writing him and he's a good guy.


SEAN

[jmc247]

To be fair, you never see the villains get as much exposure as the heroes. The only times Magneto regularly appears anywhere is when Claremont's writing him and he's a good guy.


That is a totally BS excuse. Polaris for almost two years was out of her mind insane (trying to kill people and agreeing with Xornetos attack on NY City in Uncanny 443) and she appeared regularly in different X-Men series at the time. Quicksilver today is as crazy as Magneto was in Uncanny 304 and yet he has been appearing on a reguar basis on X-Factor.

As for what Magneto is, he is neither good nor a evil. He sees himself as a good man fighting for the good of mutant kind and he is willing to do whatever he believes is necessary to prevent the genocide of his race. If the world was threatened by Doom or any other villian he would fight to save it. But, if mutants are put in camps like we see with the 198 then Magneto would be willing to kill if necessary to stop it.

Magneto is alot like the Punisher, he is a hero or a villian depending on the situation in question and ones point of view. That said as Quicksilver and Polaris have demonstrated Magneto could easily be included regularly in different series even if the writers want to portay him with more of a messiah complex and crazy then Clairmont does.

[Sean Whitmore]

That is a totally BS excuse. Polaris for almost two years was out of her mind insane (trying to kill people and agreeing with Xornetos attack on NY City in Uncanny 443) and she appeared regularly in different X-Men series at the time.

Notice those stories getting a lot of flak? Because they do. "Why don't the X-Men do something about here" over and over again.

Quicksilver today is as crazy as Magneto was in Uncanny 304 and yet he has been appearing on a reguar basis on X-Factor.

Acting weird is not the same thing as attacking humanity.

As for what Magneto is, he is neither good nor a evil.

I'm sure he likes to think that too. But the fact is that some writers write him as a bad guy, and Claremont writes him as a good guy. When he's a bad guy (and not dead), he appears as much as Doom or Doc Ock or any other bad guy.


SEAN

[jmc247]

I'm sure he likes to think that too. But the fact is that some writers write him as a bad guy, and Claremont writes him as a good guy. When he's a bad guy (and not dead), he appears as much as Doom or Doc Ock or any other bad guy.

You talk like you haven't read any of Magneto appearences the past two years. Did you somehow miss Son of M? The comic was not written by Claremont and it showed Magneto as a good person who as his grand daughter said who read his aura "isn't evil is just sad". It showed him as a man who had learned from his mistakes, basically as a wiser and less radical version of his son.

Or perhaps you didn't read New Avengers 20 which also was not written by Claremont where Magneto was shown as nothing but a sad old man that would rather have The Sentry kill him then be used to further Xorn's desire for a war on humanity.

Or perhaps you didn't read House of M which showed Magneto does not completely believe the ends justify the means as some believe. It showed he wouldn't support reordering the entire universe and using his daughter to undo the massacre of mutants in Genosha and establish mutant superority on Earth.

Magneto as he said in Secret Wars doesn't believe in punishing the innocent along with the guilty. I know some writers like Morrison don't agree with that, but every appearence Magneto has had in the past three years has been a Magneto much closer to Claremont's vision then Morrison's.

[Sean Whitmore]

Did you somehow miss Son of M? The comic was not written by Claremont and it showed Magneto as a good person who as his grand daughter said who read his aura "isn't evil is just sad".

Or perhaps you didn't read New Avengers 20 which also was not written by Claremont where Magneto was shown as nothing but a sad old man that would rather have The Sentry kill him then be used to further Xorn's desire for a war on humanity.

I'm not seeing your complaint. Like you said, he appeared in HOM, then in Son of M right after that, then in Avengers right after that. Boom, boom, boom, three appearances in a row.

And now he's MIA, status unknown, ready to come back at the least expected moment (ha! Make that very-well-hyped moment) to kick some ass. Whether it's good guy ass or bad guy ass, we'll find out then.


SEAN

[Izzycow]

im not entireley sure if this has been answered, but im pretty sure the divergence of this what if is that wolvie attacked the white house, not the school, having him kill more heroes

[jmc247]

I'm not seeing your complaint. Like you said, he appeared in HOM, then in Son of M right after that, then in Avengers right after that. Boom, boom, boom, three appearances in a row.

And now he's MIA, status unknown, ready to come back at the least expected moment (ha! Make that very-well-hyped moment) to kick some ass. Whether it's good guy ass or bad guy ass, we'll find out then.


If you aren't seeing my complaint you didn't actually read what I origionally said. I said I have to wait for months and months at a time for new Magneto appearences whereas Wolverine is in several books at the same time.

Magneto hasn't even talked to either Polaris or Wanda since the 1990s. The only two long time Marvel characters he has actually talked with since the 1990s are Professor X and Quicksilver.

[da noble savage]

Um so i've seen this come up serval times how exactly is logan gaining the ability to tele. make him able to kill peter agin. I mean he's only faster stronger and has freakin pre cog. So can somebody explain this to me cause i'm confused. :confused:

[Killing Intent]

Magneto and Sue were standing around like idiots with their personal shields off waiting to trap Wolverine. Sure, I can buy Wolverine with a teleporter could sneak up on and kill Magneto or Sue when they least suspect it. But, both of them have personal shields and both of them knew Wolverine was coming and both of them were in the same room at the same time.Sue was standing in a secure and monitored room with the expectation that she would be alerted when Wolverine attacked. Her forcefields also rarely include shielding herself from an underground attack since she expected the attack to come from ground level. Completely realistic way to take her down, even if she had a field up in some fashion. No one shields their feet when they think Wolverine is coming after them.

And Magneto's death wasn't unrealistic either.
1) He's overconfident against Wolverine in general since the guy has a metal skeleton.
2) He had Wolverine immobilized well out of claw reach in a magnetic field. Why bother with a forcefield?
3) Mag's forcefield aint all that hot anyway. Wolverine has managed to power through Mag's forcefield on several occassions, even with the metal claws. Colossus once pounded the crap out of Mags and his ENTIRE body is made of metal.
Um so i've seen this come up serval times how exactly is logan gaining the ability to tele. make him able to kill peter agin. I mean he's only faster stronger and has freakin pre cog. So can somebody explain this to me cause i'm confused. :confused:
1) Wolverine gained a pretty crappy teleportation ability due to Hydra after his brainwashing.
2) Wolverine doesn't need a teleportation ability to kill Spider-Man anyway. He's done very well fighting Spider-Man in the past.
3) Wolverine beats people that are faster than him, stronger than him, and even people that can read his mind all the time. How is Spider-Man any different?

Wolverine has floored the Hulk in the past. What in the world is there for you to be confused about? It's Spider-Man, not Hyperion.

[jmc247]

Sue was standing in a secure and monitored room with the expectation that she would be alerted when Wolverine attacked. Her forcefields also rarely include shielding herself from an underground attack since she expected the attack to come from ground level. Completely realistic way to take her down, even if she had a field up in some fashion. No one shields their feet when they think Wolverine is coming after them.


Neither Magneto nor Sue had their shields up. You do know Magneto and Sue can attack people while been surrounded in force bubbles. Force bubbles can protect them from all directions. They had to dumb down both Magneto and Sue to make their actions seem reasonable.

If neither of them were expecting an attack it would have made sense for them not to be surrounded in force bubbles.

[Sean Whitmore]

Um so i've seen this come up serval times how exactly is logan gaining the ability to tele. make him able to kill peter agin. I mean he's only faster stronger and has freakin pre cog. So can somebody explain this to me cause i'm confused. :confused:

Simple. It's a comic book, not a match on the Rumbles Board. ;)


SEAN