Frank Miller/Dark Knight Returns Query

[yourverysilly]

Theres a panel in DKR which I've always been confused about. on pg 65, its the bit when batman saves the hostage kid from the mutants ("I believe you.").
He gets the m60 and shoots at the mutant holding the kid. There seems to be a bullet hole and a blood splatter behind the mutant after abtman fires. WTF? did batman just kill the guy? He can't have, I know, but then what the hell happened?

Also, its probably already been covered and its a well known fact and you'll all swat me with your hammers of thor but I've never heard it talked about. After reading year one and DKR again, there seems to be a recurring character in millers batman work called merkel? hes a cop, usually the right hand man to the commisioner, hardcore bat fans will probably know who I mean. But you never see his face! is this a recurring joke within Millers batman mythos? does he pop up anywhere else?

cheers.

[Paperghost]

theres plenty of instances where Batman plays fast and loose with the lives of the bad guys. ("Rubber bullets. Honest). This happens quite a bit in Dark Knight Strikes Again, too.

[The Foreigner]

Theres a panel in DKR which I've always been confused about. on pg 65, its the bit when batman saves the hostage kid from the mutants ("I believe you.").
He gets the m60 and shoots at the mutant holding the kid. There seems to be a bullet hole and a blood splatter behind the mutant after abtman fires. WTF? did batman just kill the guy? He can't have, I know, but then what the hell happened?


I don't have my copy of DKR handy, but from what I'm pretty certain he simply shot the wall next to the Mutant. If I recall, the next panel is the mutant handing the child over to Batman.

I never got the impression that he actually shot him.

[Punch]

I don't have my copy of DKR handy, but from what I'm pretty certain he simply shot the wall next to the Mutant. If I recall, the next panel is the mutant handing the child over to Batman.

I never got the impression that he actually shot him.
Actually it looks like Batman killed him.The next panel is just batman picking up the kid. The hardcore fans can't possibly be that rigid,though. Surely we can allow Batman to kill if it means saving the life of a child, can't we?
As for Merkel I noticed him too, but what's funny is that I don't think his face is ever shown.

[mattx110]

given the bloodddddddddddd... he definitely shot him. and with that high caliber, it's hard not to kill someone. but either the cops assumed it was some kinda gang thing (given poor spot out the window) or the guy lived.
but batman doesn't act like he's killed anyone and mentions not killing after that.

it looks like batman picked the kid up outof the hands of the falling mutant guy. and merkel is great. i think there may be a side view of him at most, but it's probably we've only seen him from behind. and with a hat on...

in dark victory we see merkel, but for reasons related to merkel, i don't really count that part as canon unless i'm forced to. stupid loeb (and i like loeb, so don't take this the wrong way) singlehandedly makes DKR a non-eventuality in the DCU. that fiend...
actually, i guess reagan leaving office did that first... but whatever.

[PatrickG]

I like DKR.

But I'd stop reading Batman comics if DKR even started looking somewhat likely as the future.

Keep in mind, Miller's Batman does kill.

He even killed some cops in ALL-STAR, which Miller counts as part of the DKR storyline.

[TROUBLEZ]

I always wondered about that. It looks to me like he killed him. But he can't kill the Joker? Hmm. I guess knowing Batman, and how well versed he is in everything, such as anatomy, he probably shot an area avoiding the heart or lungs.

[mattx110]

I always wondered about that. It looks to me like he killed him. But he can't kill the Joker? Hmm. I guess knowing Batman, and how well versed he is in everything, such as anatomy, he probably shot an area avoiding the heart or lungs.
Take that you stupid spleen! hehehe... i'm batman.





ps. batman killing is a new thing, frank at the time made batman not kill people. with DKSA he decided "it's a war on crime... wars have casualtys" and bats doesn't kill anyone technicalllllllly, but he plans and helps carry out assassinations and sacrifices people.
oh, and apparently, parts of the brain, stomache, one lung, one kidney, spleen, appendix, arms, legs, eyes, umm.. hair, and maybe some other stuff are not necessary to sustain life... learned that from "doctor no", so with batmans aim, despite his hate of guns, he'd probably have good enough aim to take out something useless. like the guys shoulder :eek:

[the goddamn batman]

He even killed some cops in ALL-STAR, which Miller counts as part of the DKR storyline.

Those cops are not dead.

They are shown running and screaming... both of which are hard to do if you're dead.;)

[The Foreigner]

This is truly a shock to me; I've never heard it suggested that Batman actually killed or even shot someone in DKR. Does anyone have a scan of the panel in question?

[RichStanz]

To be honest, is this idea *that* controversial? Its just an alternate future, right?

I thought that was part of the point to the DKR mythos - he kills. In the world of DKR, Batman has been pushed to killing enemies.

[IamtheRock3]

Actually it looks like Batman killed him.The next panel is just batman picking up the kid. The hardcore fans can't possibly be that rigid,though. Surely we can allow Batman to kill if it means saving the life of a child, can't we?
As for Merkel I noticed him too, but what's funny is that I don't think his face is ever shown.


You be surprise

Think a lot be mad if he shot Alex Luthor

But DKR is a possible future. that batman more Craze

[The Foreigner]

I thought that was part of the point to the DKR mythos - he kills. In the world of DKR, Batman has been pushed to killing enemies.

If that was "part of the point," then the entire sequence where he can't bring himself to kill the Joker wouldn't make any sense.

Isn't there even a line in there where he considers it, but notes that it would mean "crossing a line I drew for myself thirty years ago"?

[the goddamn batman]

Yeah, there is.

I've never know what to think of that either. But, I'd shoot the mutant to save the baby too.

[The Foreigner]

Well, I'm looking at the panel right now, and there is a gray, splatter-like shape behind him, but it's unclear whether it's blood or not. There is also what appears to be a bullet hole above the Mutants shoulder. The problem being, if he had been shot as it's been suggested, it doesn't make any sense as to how the blood would have splattered in a seperate place from where the bullet left the body. Not to mention there is no visible bullet wound.

It seems pretty clear to me that Batman simply fired a shot that landed just above the Mutants shoulder, near his head that freaked him out enough to hand the child over. It simply doesn't make any sense as to how or where the Mutant would have been shot, not to mention that it's stated within the story that Batman doesn't kill. If anyone can offer another explanation to counteract this, be my guest, but I personally don't see a logical alternative.

[mattx110]

i'll have to check, but i'm pretty sure the mutant has either a red, or pink splotch on him. i always took this as he got shot and fell down a bit showing the bullet hole. next time i run into frank, i'll ask him...

[Slortex]

Given the rest of the narrative, and how vague that particular panel is, I think you have to assume that Batman didn't kill the mutant.

Also, the "Rubber bullets. Honest." line is a reference to The Cult mini-series, where we first see the Bat-tank used in that scene. I have no problem believing that Bats has that gatling gun loaded with rubber bullets. Though the exploding rockets he fires seems like they may have resulted in a casualty or two (or ten).

Hm... perhaps mutants fall under the monster clause in the no-kill rule?

[The Foreigner]

Though the exploding rockets he fires seems like they may have resulted in a casualty or two (or ten).


He's not firing the rockets; he mentions the mutants throwing grenades and such at the Batmobile, and they just bounce off and end up "doing eachother a lot of damage."

[dancj]

Also, the "Rubber bullets. Honest." line is a reference to The Cult mini-series, where we first see the Bat-tank used in that scene. I have no problem believing that Bats has that gatling gun loaded with rubber bullets. Though the exploding rockets he fires seems like they may have resulted in a casualty or two (or ten).

The Dark Knight Returns came out a few years before The Cult. Actually I always assumed that the souped up Batmobile in The Cult was inspired by TDKR

[Ruthless_Pryde]

An M-60 fires a 7.62mm shell at 1200f/s. The 7.62 at close range and thsi velocity would easily go through a person. BUT if you take a good look at whn Batman fires it, you can see that the weapon is set on full auto, which would empty about 1000 rounds a minute. The mutant in the scene would have been torn to shreds and would have alot bigger smear on the wall ( if there was any wall left). IIRC Bat shot around the guy to spook him.

Someone post a scan of the image to settle this pls.

[Punch]

Note that before this the mutant was saying "I'll kill the kid! Believe me!", So Batman saying "I believe you." makes sense and justifies the mutant being killed. We can clearly see blood behind the mutant as he slides down the wall.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/punch360/bat.jpg

[Mister Mets]

I think Batman Killed the guy, but it's left vaguely ambiguous.

As for Merkel,
he reappeared in Loeb/ Sale's Dark Victory storyline, and was promptly killed off.

Many of the minor characters introduced in Year One had roles in The Long Halloween/ Dark Victory (the majority didn't survive.)

[Ruthless_Pryde]

Well what will be...... maybe I was wrong.

[rick]

I have always thought that the scene clearly shows that Batm,an shot the guy, but only wounded him.

I agree that with the gun illustrated it would realisticly blow his whole damm arm off, but this is comics where a huge gun can just wound you.

[The Foreigner]

I still don't think it looks like he shot him.

Besides, the Mutant was holding the kid in front of him; where exactly could Bats have shot him? Especially just to wound him?

[dancj]

I've lent my copy of TDKR to a friend. Could someone post the page before it to give me some context?

[Augusto]

:confused: Anyone remember what is the name of the chapter from Batman TAS, where they made a part adapted from DKR. When beats the mutant leader?:confused: :confused:

[The Zapper]

:confused: Anyone remember what is the name of the chapter from Batman TAS, where they made a part adapted from DKR. When beats the mutant leader?:confused: :confused:

Now the ball is in Farnsworth's court! the name of the episode you're looking for is "Legends of the Dark Knight".

[bennyblanko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QrBvWdlRDc

[davids]

Or is it one more of those acidents that kept croping up in DKR? Still a great read!:)

[The Zapper]

Or is it one more of those acidents that kept croping up in DKR? Still a great read!:)

Most likely just a "shout out" to the character for lack of a better word. There are several in the book.

[dancj]

Or is it one more of those acidents that kept croping up in DKR?
There's nothing accidental. She's the editor of the Daily Planet. How she got the job doesn't matter. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at

[davids]

Lois and lana were switched one or more times in the story. Other little mistakes That in no way spoiled the story for me! In DK2 superman ws holding a locket with Clark's and Lois photo sise by side inside. But it was wonder woman he was having sex with1

[Punch]

Lois and lana were switched one or more times in the story. Other little mistakes That in no way spoiled the story for me! In DK2 superman ws holding a locket with Clark's and Lois photo sise by side inside. But it was wonder woman he was having sex with1
I don't remember Lois being mentioned at all in DKR.

[the goddamn batman]

Lois and lana were switched one or more times in the story. Other little mistakes That in no way spoiled the story for me! In DK2 superman ws holding a locket with Clark's and Lois photo sise by side inside. But it was wonder woman he was having sex with1

Can't recall a single mention of Lois in DKR... don't have it handy, so I can't verify, but nothing comes to mind.

As for DKSA... 9/11 happened and Frank made some changes to the 3rd issue. I'm sure that the locket was just to hit home the loss that people expreinced from 9/11.

And, just because you're no currently with someone doesn't mean that you no longer care for them.

And and again, these details really aren't important.

And and and, remember that Frank isn't really concerned with continuity.

[Augusto]

Now the ball is in Farnsworth's court! the name of the episode you're looking for is "Legends of the Dark Knight".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QrBvWdlRDc

Better late than never, thanks both of you. That's my favorite Batman moment in tv and comics.

Or is it one more of those acidents that kept croping up in DKR? Still a great read!:)

Coming soon... DKR prequel: Lana Lang and Batman Secret Files:wink:

[niall mc cann]

I have always thought that the scene clearly shows that Batm,an shot the guy, but only wounded him.

I agree that with the gun illustrated it would realisticly blow his whole damm arm off, but this is comics where a huge gun can just wound you.

That'd be my thinking, simply because some pretty important plot points in the book just don't make sense if he's so casual about killing.

[Vidocq]

Hi, I'm New around here. I just recently re.read DKR and that Guy who Batman Shot appeared alive a few pages Later. Batman only wound him, He later appears being interrogated by Batman on a roof top.

And I like Merkel, He also appears in Night Cries by the way.