what if they did kill nightwing in the last crisis

[IamtheRock3]

what would you think the fan reaction would be

And what would be the story fall out.

[Drink]

Well, it's pretty clear that the Wingnuts would have lost it. And if the media got hold of the fact Dick Grayson died, there might have been some severe backlash.

As for stories though, Bruce Jones's run might have been more sense, as would Nightwing's earlier depiction in Outsiders. Tim being adopted by Bruce would have made more sense than it did, especially since Tim had gone to extreme lengths to prevent it before. And of course, they wouldn't have needed to explain how/why the engagment with Barbara was called off, for obvious reasons.

It may have overly complicated things, but hey, we still get Nightwing....:rolleyes:

[Jack Zodiac]

Honestly, after seeing Winick drag him through the dirt in Outsiders (even before the original decision to kill him) and Jones' run on Nightwing, Dick would've been better off dead. Now, he's got no "Gotham City," as Blüdhaven was destroyed, he's got a crap super team, a psychopathic "little brother," another kick in the crotch to his relationship with Barbara, and a cornrowed albino telling him he should be dead.

If they would've killed him, yeah, a lot of fans would've been pissed (and they were, which is why it didn't go down), but it would've been worth it. Tim would be in a more secure place to be adopted by Bruce, and for what it's worth (which isn't very !@#$% much), Jason would have had a place in the DCU. Dick would have died a noble "Crisis death," just like Conner, Barry, and Kara Zor-El.

However, I'm glad he isn't dead. I like Nightwing, and now that the Wolfman's on the book, it's getting much better. One day, hopefully, DC will grow a pair and really graduate their heroes and let Dick become Batman (ten, fifteen, or twenty years from now), and the decision to keep him alive would've been worth it.

[TROUBLEZ]

I think the Nightwing fans would go crazy too. There must not be many of them if Dan Didio wanted to cancel the book, but the ones that he does have must be hard core. Anyway, I don't think the media would have noticed as it would have been the death of "Nightwing" and not Robin.

The fallout story wise would have had Jason playing a bigger role in Batman, either as a villain or anti-hero, and the Death of Robin (Jason), as a big part of Batman, would be replaced with the Death of Robin (Dick). The glass case might have Dick's original costume along with the Nightwing garb.

Me personally I'm glad he didn't die. 2 Robins have already died, and one came back from the dead, so if he died, the Batman history would sound silly and soap operatic. The only reason they wanted to kill off Nightwing is because his book wasn't selling well, and since he's not a sellable character, we can sell even more books of Crisis if we include the "Death of a Major Character/Hero."
If he doesn't sell books, just cancell is book. Don't have to kill him. Jason/Robin died. Let's stick with that concept and not have a league of Robins popping up and then dying, then being resurrected.

[yourverysilly]

(personally) Fucking pissed off, for one. Nightwing kicks fucking ass.
and the results for Batman would be devestating. If your on a batman comic book forum, then I obviously don't need to tell you how much Dick means to Bruce (yeah, yeah gay jokes to follow, ha ha)
Two interesting examples spring to mind, Hush where Batman says that Dick has earned the right to speak to him without fear (god I love hush) and if you look in the scarecrow tales tbp, the last story, where batman recives multiple fear gas hallucinations of various people dieing, when sasha says "I got a call from Bludhaven PD, it's dick..." Bats just replies "No. Next."

[Paperghost]

then I obviously don't need to tell you how much Dick means to Bruce

...now you've gone and done it, I just interfaced my tea with my monitor.

[Buried Alien]

There's no way it could have happened. If Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the "Big Three" of the DC Universe, then Dick Grayson (be he Robin or Nightwing) is the DCU's fourth main pillar. I'd argue that Dick is more integral to the DCU's history than Wonder Woman is. Moreover, unlike the Flash or Green Lantern, who could and were successfully replaced with newer characters going by those names, Dick Grayson is *not* replaceable by a Jason Todd or a Tim Drake. Robin can be replaced. Maybe even Nightwing can be replaced. Not Dick Grayson, however.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bry]

I'd agree with the above poster, if you look back at all those old "World Finest" issues it had Bruce, Dick and Clark on it if they had killed Robin in the comics I tell you they would've bit the bullet hard. Of course now they're tryin to give the guy direction and people are still irritated because they don't like the change!! go figure..fanboys

[mattx110]

umm.. hopefully the price of TPBs of all of chuck dixon's run on the book would go down in price or something... i've only got up the the low teens.

[IamtheRock3]

also think about the backlash when kyle replace Hal


Now times that by 10 when Jason todd replace Dick. And I LIKE Jason.

[elias_A]

One day, hopefully, DC will grow a pair and really graduate their heroes and let Dick become Batman (ten, fifteen, or twenty years from now), and the decision to keep him alive would've been worth it.

Your remark made me think seriously for the first time what if DC decided to have their heroes aging "real time", i.e. a new Batman taking over from his predecessor every 20 years or so.

I think I heard Byrne's generations series was about something like this, right? Was it any good?

[Lorendiac]

what would you think the fan reaction would be

And what would be the story fall out.

I know exactly what my fan reaction would have been (but I won't try to speak for anyone else).

If Dick had definitely been dead and buried at the end of "Infinite Crisis #7" my reaction would be: "Hey, everybody! I'm starting up a Poll on how long he will stay dead! Less than one year? Less than two? Less than five? Less than ten? Or, as an extreme case, you can click on the option that says he will STILL be dead and buried, twenty years from now!" :)

I'm serious about my reaction. I would be a tad unhappy, but I'd also take it for granted that it wouldn't last in the long run, so why get ridiculously stressed over what was obviously just a Temporary Stunt?

[nuclearman]

Would have been very disappointing.. thank the infinite crisis gods they didn't.

[kel25]

I remember reading a wizard issue that they were speculating on the events in the crisis. One of them was four characters and who would die in the event. I saw Nightwing in there and thought that there would be no way they would even consider him. Dick is an Icon and his series was near issue 100. Very few series last that long.

To my surprise a few months later I find that he was slated to be killed and with what happened to Batgirl and several other DC characters I honestly feel that Didio is one of the worst things to happen to DC comics.

As a fan I would be pissed that they killed him. Sure I would know it was temporary. But if they killed my favorite DC character would mean I would drop all DC comics for several years, even if they brought him back from the dead. Just because of the horrible stuff going on with DC I dropped everything and am only debating to comeback now that Marv is on Nightwing and ONLY for that title.

[The Shadow]

what if they did kill nightwing in the last crisis
If Jason Todd, who was almost universally reviled when he died, can come back I don't think Dick's return would have been too long in coming.

In other words it wouldn't have mattered... at all.

[Buried Alien]

In other words it wouldn't have mattered... at all.

It would have mattered insofar as that DC would have had to bring him back through very contrived means. The biggest problem with reviving "dead" characters in superhero comics isn't the actual fact of the revival, but how it's done. Seldom is it done in a way that's satisfactory.

It's especially difficult to accomplish believable resurrections with "street-level" characters such as Dick Grayson or Jason Todd, who have no science fiction or magical characteristics that could conveniently explain a return from the dead.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Superboy Prime]

And if the media got hold of the fact Dick Grayson died, there might have been some severe backlash.

I have doubt that there would have been much media backlash. Mainly because, yes, it would have been Dick Grayson biting the bullet in IC, but also he is now the character Nightwing and unfortunately the death of Nightwing isnt as superficial as a headline exclaiming the death of Robin. Which is exactly what happened during the mid 1980's with the death of Robin II (Jason Todd). The media automatically assumed that this was Dick Grayson and the rest is history. I believe the media about Batwoman being a lesbian is a pretty good example of the superficialness that the media loves to cling onto with news about any comic book character. And I believe that the death of Dick Grayson, not Robin, but Dick "Nightwing" Grayson wouldnt have been quite the news story we have seen in the past with the death of Robin II, or even Batwoman being revealed as being Gay. Even if simply because the "Death of Nightwing" (or "Death of Dick Grayson" for that matter), isnt quite the attention grabbing headline that the "Death of Robin" would ultimately prove to be with the media.

[Lorendiac]

Your remark made me think seriously for the first time what if DC decided to have their heroes aging "real time", i.e. a new Batman taking over from his predecessor every 20 years or so.

I think I heard Byrne's generations series was about something like this, right? Was it any good?

I bought the original 4-part "Generations" Elseworlds miniseries when it came out, and I thought it was great!

Then I bought the 4-part sequel, "Generations II," and thought it was pretty good, except for a lousy ending regarding the details of the deaths of Bruce's parents.

Then I bought the first two or three issues of a 12-part sequel, "Generations III," and lost interest in a hurry. If you can find the TPB collection of the original "Superman/Batman: Generations" by John Byrne, there's a fair chance that you will enjoy it.

In the original "Generations," we skip forward 10 years at a time (usually) between one sequence and the next. Superman and Batman first meet in 1939, when they are both pretty new at the whole Superhero gig. Then it's suddenly 1949 and both of them are happily married (Superman to Lois, and Bruce to someone whose name and face were never revealed to us). Then it's 1959 and Lois and Clark have two kids growing up, and Bruce and his unnamed wife have one (Bruce Junior), and Dick is currently out of the superhero biz, working as a prosecutor. Then it's 1969 and we quickly learn that sometime during the last 10 years, Dick Grayson has long since become the new Batman of Gotham City, with Bruce Junior now serving as the second Robin . . . you get the idea, and I don't want to ruin any of the major surprise plot twists for you about what happens to these families in 1969 and later on as the kids grow up and encounter some serious problems of their own.

The way Byrne did it, it worked very well -- as the superhero comic book equivalent of a "generational novel." But if DC had "really" been doing it that way in their comics in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, etc., showing everybody getting older bit by bit, with kids sloooooowly growing up to eventually think about getting married themselves, and Bruce Wayne eventually developing more and more gray hairs, and so forth, I'd feel that DC had made a hideous mistake. The beauty of Elseworlds was that Byrne could play around with the idea of "what if Batman and his cast had aged normally during the 20th century?" without forcing every other writer and artist at DC to "respect his continuity" and handle things the same way, showing one Batman being replaced by another as the years rolled past, etc.

If I ran things at DC and if someone wanted to do a series about a "Batman Family" in which Bruce, Dick, Selina, and all the other characters have been aging in realtime since their debuts and will continue to do so in the monthly issues from now on, I might very well say: "That sounds great! As long as it is set in its own little world so that every other writer, artist, and editor at DC is perfectly free to Totally Ignore whatever you are doing so that we don't have to lose our powerful 'cultural icon' of 'Bruce Wayne as Batman' that we've spent decades pounding into the heads of the Great American Public!"

[chrismileslord]

Grayson is by far my favorite Robin and his standalone character Nightwing is the reason I started reading DC. I adore that character, and if they would have killed him, I would be inclined to drop all of DC just for that. Killing a major hero is a good thing now and then, but you have to pick who is the right one to kill. Nightwing is the only one who can show up in any book. Supergirl, Superman, Batman, Flash, Teen Titans, Outsiders, JLA, Robin, all of these books could have tie ins with Nightwing and be a good story.

[Mister Mets]

Honestly, I think it would have been a good idea to kill him off for all the reasons Didio had for doing it.

He's a great character, but he had become expendable.

I hope Wolfman & co are able to justify keeping the character alive through the quality of the Nightwing comic book series.

[elias_A]

I bought the original 4-part "Generations" Elseworlds miniseries when it came out, and I thought it was great!

Then I bought the 4-part sequel, "Generations II," and thought it was pretty good, except for a lousy ending regarding the details of the deaths of Bruce's parents.

Then I bought the first two or three issues of a 12-part sequel, "Generations III," and lost interest in a hurry. If you can find the TPB collection of the original "Superman/Batman: Generations" by John Byrne, there's a fair chance that you will enjoy it.

In the original "Generations," we skip forward 10 years at a time (usually) between one sequence and the next. Superman and Batman first meet in 1939, when they are both pretty new at the whole Superhero gig. Then it's suddenly 1949 and both of them are happily married (Superman to Lois, and Bruce to someone whose name and face were never revealed to us). Then it's 1959 and Lois and Clark have two kids growing up, and Bruce and his unnamed wife have one (Bruce Junior), and Dick is currently out of the superhero biz, working as a prosecutor. Then it's 1969 and we quickly learn that sometime during the last 10 years, Dick Grayson has long since become the new Batman of Gotham City, with Bruce Junior now serving as the second Robin . . . you get the idea, and I don't want to ruin any of the major surprise plot twists for you about what happens to these families in 1969 and later on as the kids grow up and encounter some serious problems of their own.

The way Byrne did it, it worked very well -- as the superhero comic book equivalent of a "generational novel." But if DC had "really" been doing it that way in their comics in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, etc., showing everybody getting older bit by bit, with kids sloooooowly growing up to eventually think about getting married themselves, and Bruce Wayne eventually developing more and more gray hairs, and so forth, I'd feel that DC had made a hideous mistake. The beauty of Elseworlds was that Byrne could play around with the idea of "what if Batman and his cast had aged normally during the 20th century?" without forcing every other writer and artist at DC to "respect his continuity" and handle things the same way, showing one Batman being replaced by another as the years rolled past, etc.

If I ran things at DC and if someone wanted to do a series about a "Batman Family" in which Bruce, Dick, Selina, and all the other characters have been aging in realtime since their debuts and will continue to do so in the monthly issues from now on, I might very well say: "That sounds great! As long as it is set in its own little world so that every other writer, artist, and editor at DC is perfectly free to Totally Ignore whatever you are doing so that we don't have to lose our powerful 'cultural icon' of 'Bruce Wayne as Batman' that we've spent decades pounding into the heads of the Great American Public!"

Thank you for the info!

Of course it is hard to seriously imagine Batman being replaced. The appeal of this idea, for me, is certainly not to see a grey-haired Bruce (he should better be killed of, maybe in a crisis... :) ).

Instead, we could see something more like the japanese philosophy of heroes' stories having an end, but having a lot of clones with similar concepts. So there would always be a rather similar Batman, but we could see the training of a new unexperienced kid each decade, without them ending in a dead end street like Didio claims Nightwing did...
(Not that I agree with him! Don't lynch me, please! :) )

Just imagine we could have really seen Stephanie Brown learning and becoming a real vigilante and one day training new kids herself before retiring or dying...

But Batman as a timeless concept is probably still better, I guess.