Action Comics #845 *spoilers* [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Syphre Zero

11-22-2006, 01:33 PM

When I first heard that Richard Donner would be writing Action Comics, I groaned a little inside.

Today that little groan became a guttural wail of anguish and despair.

Here are some of the specific problems I had with this issue and the direction this arc appears to be taking:

The "boy from Krypton." It's bad enough they threw that in the mix with Superman Returns, but now it's going to be part of canon? Come on. And naming him Christopher? I understand it was intended as an homage, but it comes off as tacky to me.

Lois's characterization as "wouldn't be a good parent." Actually, make that her ENTIRE characterization. Lois Lane is a hard-nosed, edgy, sarcastic Type A personality, not the wishy-washy bundle of insecurity we were shown (again) in Superman Returns.

The characterization of Bizarro. Bizarro is supposed to be Backwards Superman, not Solomon Grundy in a cape.

The Phantom Zone Trio. COME ON. Not only has this been done (in the movies, anyone seeing a pattern here?), but this would seem to kill any chance of bringing back the Zod from For Tomorrow.

Luthor's capture of Bizarro. In his own words, Bizarro has been in captivity for thirteen months. That would imply that Luthor captured and imprisoned him shortly after Infinite Crisis. With everything going on at that point, when did he have time to manage that? Is it even chronologically possible?

The characterization of Superman running back to Daddy Jor-El for advice all the time. Another hold-over from the films, the Clark Kent that I know and love visits Kansas for parental advice, not the Fortress.

The costume change to match Superman Returns. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't match what you see in Superman or JLA.

Here's what it boils down to. Much like the Batman franchise, the Superman films are meant to be a watered-down version of the classic character that is readily accessible to the general public; an All-Star Superman for the masses, if you will. Whatever changes are made in the translation do NOT need to be carried back into comic continuity. I don't believe that DC Comics would hire Tim Burton or Joel Schumacher to write Detective Comics, yet that (thankfully imaginary) travesty has essentially been made here by giving Donner the reins to Action. For the first time since I began reading comics, today I was unhappy to be a Superman reader.

For the sticklers who are inclined to say that writing credit (blame?) is also shared by Geoff Johns, all I can figure is that Donner clubbed him over the head and wrote the entire thing while Johns was passed out. I have normally been a fan of Johns' writing, and there has been nothing in this arc that even looks like his work.

Bry

11-22-2006, 02:19 PM

Dude you must not have been a fan of the movies, I thought the issue was freakin great, Lois comes great in my opinion. Bizzaro is exactly what he should be notice Luthor did train the beast, he's a backwards Superman he's gonna be ever so more effed up the Kal would be and tons more ruthless. I don't get your beef personally and while everyone can't be pleased I thought it read nicely as a great issue.

But to each his own

Syphre Zero

11-22-2006, 02:32 PM

To be fair, I DO enjoy the movies - precisely in the context I described them. My "beef" with the New and Improved Action Comics is that the movies, while enjoyable in their own right, look sophomoric when compared to how Superman has been written in the comics, and introduce lots of changes that I feel are out of place with the modern Superman. It's one interpretation among many of a character we all love; the problem I have with it crossing over to the comics is that it muddies the waters for the rest of the DCU, particularly in Superman's other title (which I am enjoying immensely at the moment). I'm not outright dissing the movies, I just think they should be left on the big screen where they belong. Comic book readers deserve more, especially not at the expense of current canon.

Bry

11-22-2006, 03:35 PM

I see where you're comin from man, there's no two ways about it some readers prefer it that way too. But considering he's just be introduced I think we should give him a chance, I mean I read an interview with Donner in Wizard today and he said that he's not going to be exactly like the movie Zod so I think we're in for a treat

But that's just one fans opinion

shaxper

11-22-2006, 04:02 PM

Bry

11-22-2006, 04:53 PM

Perhaps the real problem is that Action Comics has become home to the movie incarnation of Superman, which is not in keeping with the rest of the Superman titles and appearances in DCU (even post Infinite Crisis) either in characterization or continuity. This project should have been saved for All-Star Superman or some other non-continuity title. There's just no way to reconcile these characters, their characterizations, or their shared history with their counterparts in the other Superman titles.

Some will say that continuity is overrated anyway, but
1. This is the same company that just did Infinite Crisis as a means to re-establish and repair continuity, so it SHOULD matter in the realm of the new DCU, and
2. More importantly, inconsistant characterization should matter. This isn't the same Superman you see in the other titles (nor is it the same Lois Lane), much like All-Star Batman is not the regular Batman, but All-Star Batman is clearly labelled as being a different approach. No one confuses it for being a part of the norm.

I fail to see how their different my friend, this Lois can translate into the other one just as well, I'll assume you've been reading Busiek's Arc so far, I mean Lois is quick witted and has short haired and we all know she's been edgy before. The inclusion of the movie Zod seems perfectly ok, I mean fans have been clamoring for some excitment in the series and this is it!! I mean the Zod in Jim Lee's run was a great one but DC wasn't about to let that one become "the" Zod, so now we have him I think we should give him a chance...because he's a poppa!!!

SarcasmoBlaster

11-22-2006, 09:39 PM

I really enjoyed it. I've always seen Superman as sort of a family man, so the kid doesn't bother me. It's funny, but Superman is the only character I can think of where bringing in a kid doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Also, I guess the Zod from Jim Lee's run has already been retconned?

Jack Zodiac

11-23-2006, 09:56 AM

I thought it was great. I could care less if it doesn't fit perfectly into some little puzzle-piece of continuity. If I wanted severe continuity, I'd still be reading Civil War and its various tie-ins.

The direction the "Super-Boy" plot is going in should be interesting. I'll agree that Lois being insecure about taking care of the kid came off a little out of character, but it wasn't as bad as it could've been. She could've said, "I'd make a horrible mother," instead of "my sister's the mother," or "leave the parenting to the parents," in reference to the Kents. She didn't immediately fold up like a card table, she just wasn't too sure about taking this step considering the two have never cared for a child before.

Bizarro was great, especially the way he was drawn. Kubert's doing some great work in this book. Heavy lines on characters, thin lines on details, which really pay off when the coloring is added. Those scenes where Superman and Bizarro are throwing each other around Midtown were awesome. And as for Bizarro himself, I think his characterization was fine. He wasn't all "me am Bizarro Number One!" because Luthor's confined him for over a year, "taming him, if you will. And to that end, that's something Luthor would absolutely do. I don't care if he did it the Saturday after New Earth was created, or the Monday before he started the Everyman Project.

And as for Zod, Ursa, and Non? I think the movie versions were the most capable versions of them (the trio from the Phantom Zone, not specifically Ursa and Non). Every Zod character in the comics has sucked horribly, so if Donner wants to bring in the one Zod that I think worked, I could care less if it was the movie version. Superman needs powerful, capable, evil rogues, and so long as Luthor's in mad-scientist mode in the sewers and Darkseid's biding his time, I'll take the Phantom Zone inmates.

Great stuff. I'm glad this book kept the steam from Kurt's run, because the action hasn't stopped for a single issue since the OYL jump. Really enjoying it.

RabidWolfe

11-23-2006, 10:43 AM

I could care less if it doesn't fit perfectly into some little puzzle-piece of continuity. If I wanted severe continuity, I'd still be reading Civil War and its various tie-ins.

Then you should read Civil War, since it tosses continuity out the window. The main series and the tie-ins seem don't match up very well at all.

Lanowar

11-23-2006, 05:26 PM

I was under the impression Infinite Crisis reset the DCU? So whatever was in continuity before hand was disgarded or perhaps more a pick and mix feel to it?

Chris Thomas

11-23-2006, 05:45 PM

1. the artwork is fantastic. incredible stuff--comicly, yet alive. and every face is distinct from the next--very important to my little brain

2. continuity? IC restored it? I thought IC was sort of a soft reboot with 'expanations to follow' i.e. the origins in 52, the year after stuff, 'up up and away.' how is this out of continuity? I MEAN JASON TODD CAME BACK TO LIFE for gosh sakes

3. this trio of evil kryptonians looks fascinating. they are kind of reminding me of the 'four' (dowling et. al.) from Planetary sans the torch dude.

4. in the last action comics they mentioned (or more specifically the autioneer mentioned) a THIRD krytonian. which leads me to ask (if supes is one and supergirl is two)

a. who is the third? would bizarro count? what is his current origin
b. if he doesn't--then the aution dude counted them BEFORE the ship landed--so there is one more unaccounted-for krytonian running around. who woud that be?

Will.S

11-23-2006, 06:03 PM

Then you should read Civil War, since it tosses continuity out the window. The main series and the tie-ins seem don't match up very well at all.
To be fair, with so many books tieing into the main CW mini it's almost impossible to synchronize every little plot that happens into the tie-ins perfectly, especially the FF issues but the Spider-Man books have done a great job.

Anyway with Superman's continuity post-IC like Bored at 3:00 AM said, they can basically do a colossal remix of anything that they liked from before IC and dump anything they didn't. This works really well if they want to restructure and add continuity using the proper titles instead of a dedicated definitive mini like Superman Birthright and the main Superman writers can add their own piece of Superman history to the puzzle.

As for the book itself, I really liked it. There's a fantastic fight between Bizarro and Superman that is really staged cinematically, I especially liked the way they both broke through the walls. I also liked the little moral dilemma Clark was having about the kid when talking to his parents and Lois about it. The way Lois found the kid amongst the fight between the big 2 made for an interesting reconsideration for taking care of young "Chris" here.

I kind of like the name even though you can tell that it's for Chris Reeve which is a nice gesture. The fact that it was Zod's kid didn't seem all that surprising given the early guesses but it works without that same weird vibe Superman Returns had in that area. Oh and Adam Kubert's art combined with Dave Sewart's colors looked absolutely fabulous and packed with detail. I'm really glad DC got Adam to do this story although I'm unsure of the design on Zod and the 3 Kryptonians which look like Kryptonian street wear mixed with fighter pilot gear but perhaps it's just Phantom Zone garb.

StrikeForce Albert

11-23-2006, 07:51 PM

Thought this issue was SWEET!

I'm a fan of Zod and HATED the Azz/Lee arc with him in it. This is a welcome change

eggie

11-23-2006, 08:03 PM

I absolutely loved this issue...movie Zod is the greatest Zod ever so I think its about time DC used that to their advantage to make Zod a better character than he has been in his past comic appearances. I thought it was nice that Johns and Donner named the new kid Christopher, its a great nod to Christopher Reeve. Bizarro was superb in this issue even though he wasn't talking backwards like he normally does (when he hit Superman with the school bus he said "Good-bye Superman" which in Bizarro speak means hello). Adam Kubert's art impressed even more with this issue and I am hoping he stays on for more than 6 issues...I like the his Superman has the 'S' on his belt like the movie version and that he gave Bizarro a backward 'S' on his belt, too perfect. Cannot wait for the next issue! :D

i5hawn

11-23-2006, 11:14 PM

wait the guy witht he blond hair was zod? maybe i need to go back and re-read that arc...

what happened to the zod from before that one that looked like superman?

for IC to have rebooted everything, things sure are confusing

Paperghost

11-24-2006, 12:48 PM

I thought the first issue was good, though I started to get a little twitchy the moment I heard Donner + superkid.

Wasn't Didio and all the rest of them promising nothing from the films would make their way over to the comics?

Yet we saw bits and pieces creep into Up, Up and Away and now.....gahh.

I agree with the original poster - soon as I saw all the movie stuff rumbling down the tracks, I started to feel a mild sense of OH GOD, STOP coming over me. The final page reveal of the three nutballs from Superman 2 is just one step too far for me. keep movie stuff outside of continuity from over 15 years ago where it belongs - in the films. Keep the gradual seep of potentially comic mangling ideas from the new films where they belong - in the new films. and what on earth is going on with Bizarro? That ain't no Bizarro I've ever seen.

BetterThanYou

11-24-2006, 12:59 PM

I actually think Lois's characterisation her re "superboy" rang pretty true.
Shes a career woman who is routinely putting herself in danger and who has a hard nosed no nonsense approach to life. The idea of taking care of a child would scare her IMO. The idea thats shes going from Lois Lane Star reporter to Lois Lane responsible for the life of another human being is a huge shift.
Personally I thought it rang very true.

Magneto_X

11-24-2006, 01:26 PM

PatrickG

11-24-2006, 03:08 PM

Camron Amaya

11-24-2006, 04:28 PM

God the art sucks. The guy before was much better.

Baldur

11-24-2006, 06:09 PM

I love both Kuberts artwork. The story is good, but you know they aren't gonna be raising this kid for the next 18 years so it seems kind of silly. Also I thought naming his Christopher was cool.

Alex L

11-24-2006, 06:10 PM

Another Zod? http://www.dsai.de/sbbgrafik/smilies/ugh.gif

Haven't seen Superman Returns (surprisingly) so I'm a little lost on the discussion going on.

I agree with the line of thinking that puts Lois as uncomfortable with suddenly becoming Mom. From her perspective, things must have been coming too fast, and if she didn't say something, anything to pause the chain of events she'd all of a sudden be a parent. Clark was thinking with his heart, not his head.

And while this Bizarro was different than what I was used to, again it works.
No cute backwards-logic, just a Superman-clone, berefit of morals, who had been drinking the Luthor kool-aid for over a year. And that makes him dangerous.

Camron Amaya

11-24-2006, 06:17 PM

I love both Kuberts artwork. The story is good, but you know they aren't gonna be raising this kid for the next 18 years so it seems kind of silly. Also I thought naming his Christopher was cool.

I just can't get into his style it's too sketchy and messy, the faces are blah to me.

Look at Lois when Pete Woods was drawing her ..then look at her in this issue.....

Castaway

11-24-2006, 06:57 PM

I love both Kuberts artwork. The story is good, but you know they aren't gonna be raising this kid for the next 18 years so it seems kind of silly. Also I thought naming his Christopher was cool.
I'm digging both the storyline (ZOD!) thus far, but after this issue you should have the sense that this kid won't be raised by Lois and Clark for 18 issues, let alone 18 years... an as a returning fan tryng to latch on to both this and "Action," the discrpeancy in continuity is jarring...

Bry

11-24-2006, 07:06 PM

Oh I see the kid either turnin on his father in favor of Clark or he goes back to Zod in which case would add more to Clarks ever growing list of "failures" if you will with Kryptonians (god the guy just can't get along with other people from his race) I think the art was solid all around except in certain spots but when you're a teacher at a school for comics and Illustration I can let that slide. I'm lookin foreward to the next issue in the worst way

Will.S

11-24-2006, 07:29 PM

God the art sucks. The guy before was much better.
This is madness.

Camron Amaya

11-24-2006, 10:54 PM

This is madness.

Way cleaner, smoother and fitting for Superman.

To quote my friend "half the faces in this sh*t looks like scribbles and sketches".

Will.S

11-24-2006, 11:11 PM

Way cleaner, smoother and fitting for Superman.

To quote my friend "half the faces in this sh*t looks like scribbles and sketches".
I loved Pete Wood's art as well but I disagree, as a whole I think Adam's art is more dynamic. He does neat touches like making Clark's hair looks more like the movie versions with the parted hair instead of slicked back and he integrates the seams on the Superman costume. Some people dislike those types of things since they seem too much like the movie but I like the mix of modernization and movie touches.

The backrounds are very detailed and colored to perfection but I guess I can see what you mean when it comes to the sketchier aspects of his art.

Jason1Kent

11-25-2006, 05:28 AM

Holy Facatchia!
Great issue. Bizzaro was cool and the ending?.......................
I was abit worried with the previous issue and the dodgey lack of script but this current issue has brought peace of mind.
This is turning out to be a really good storyline. The re-introduction of Zod was great . Chris being his son was, well predictable really but at least it means there is still only one Superboy! lets just hope he's back soon

astronato

11-25-2006, 08:14 AM

Love the artstyle and the layouts.

Loved seeing Zod, Ursa and Non.

Love that Supes is already emotionally attached to the kid and how that is goig to play out now that we know who his dad is.

Harding Prime

11-25-2006, 01:04 PM

I am really enjoying the arc, and though it seems that Action Comics is the Illustrated version off-shoot of the movies, this is a BIG storyline. This is the one that will be compared to Inifinite Crisis, For Tomorrow, Batman/Superman, Kara Zor-el, and even to the Death of Superman. Nothing going on in the regular Superman Title right now is massive, just more boring one shots of old school type writing for the kids almost.

The only problem I have is, How the F does Zod keep coming back, how did he get here this time, who is the kid, (last son of kyrpton indeed.) I hope all this gets ironed out...WELL.

Jack Zodiac

11-25-2006, 01:27 PM

I am really enjoying the arc, and though it seems that Action Comics is the Illustrated version off-shoot of the movies, this is a BIG storyline. This is the one that will be compared to Inifinite Crisis, For Tomorrow, Batman/Superman, Kara Zor-el, and even to the Death of Superman. Nothing going on in the regular Superman Title right now is massive, just more boring one shots of old school type writing for the kids almost.

"Old school type writing for kids almost" > unoriginal, uncreative, "life-changing" big events that'll get retconned away in five years anyway.

Harding Prime

11-25-2006, 02:02 PM

"Old school type writing for kids almost" > unoriginal, uncreative, "life-changing" big events that'll get retconned away in five years anyway.

I guess you like kid stories then. I'm tired of ever other comic having some unknown monster come out of nowhere and getting his junk kicked in by Superman (Enough though on the cover it shows the monster "killing" superman), breaking a couple buildings and Superman getting his picture taken. It's boring, even if this story may seem unoriginal, at least its a story, I want something more then just a fight in Metropolis, I want something that can effect the inside of Superman. That is his weakest part, kryptonite can't effect as much as someone toying with his emotions, that is why Luthor is so good, he does both. I loved Up, Up, and Away, even though they didn't explain how he got his powers back, (it was all mental), it was a classic story, not an old school kid story. There is a difference, and I like the former.

PatrickG

11-25-2006, 03:58 PM

Are you reading Superman right now.

Superman's being presented with a moral dilemma there. Apparently, the world will fall apart in 20 years due to Superman being Superman. He's basically being faced with a situation where if he doesn't kill a guy and change his MO, the world will end.

I don't know how much more philosophical you can get.

Bry

11-25-2006, 06:56 PM

I guess you like kid stories then. I'm tired of ever other comic having some unknown monster come out of nowhere and getting his junk kicked in by Superman (Enough though on the cover it shows the monster "killing" superman), breaking a couple buildings and Superman getting his picture taken. It's boring, even if this story may seem unoriginal, at least its a story, I want something more then just a fight in Metropolis, I want something that can effect the inside of Superman. That is his weakest part, kryptonite can't effect as much as someone toying with his emotions, that is why Luthor is so good, he does both. I loved Up, Up, and Away, even though they didn't explain how he got his powers back, (it was all mental), it was a classic story, not an old school kid story. There is a difference, and I like the former.

Seriously dude if you gotta analyze it like that? you might wanna go out and drink a little enjoy the sun, have a few laughs. Up Up and Away was great! one of the best non-event arcs I had read in a long time, but to make that statement you just made I'd assume you're actually reading the other Superman title? because right now Busiek is kickin so much ass on that series it's blowin me away. I can't wait for his next issue just because I'm anxious to see what he'll put Supes through.

Jack Zodiac

11-25-2006, 11:15 PM

I guess you like kid stories then.

I like stories that don't suck. I guess you like stories that suck. How's that for lateral thinking?

Seriously, if it isn't your slice of pie, it isn't your slice of pie, but those "kid" stories are entertaining, and they aren't wrapped up in the flavor the month crossover that will ultimately be forgotten or ridiculed anyway. I'd rather have stories that are fun and worth reading than tripe I want to forget about fifteen minutes later.

This story's been fun, so far, and I really wanna' see where these characters go, considering we've gone through three Zods in ten years. However, don't think for a minute this story will be either pivotal or concrete. It's just another story that's going to shake things up for a while and will, in all likelihood, return to the status quo in due time, meaning no movie Zod and no Super-Kid.

Enjoy a story for how fun, how entertaining and well-written and drawn it is, not for how much it's supposed to change the way you think about a character when you know you'll be back to thinking about that character the same way in a year.

CaptChucky

11-26-2006, 11:24 AM

I like stories that don't suck. I guess you like stories that suck. How's that for lateral thinking?

Seriously, if it isn't your slice of pie, it isn't your slice of pie, but those "kid" stories are entertaining, and they aren't wrapped up in the flavor the month crossover that will ultimately be forgotten or ridiculed anyway. I'd rather have stories that are fun and worth reading than tripe I want to forget about fifteen minutes later.

This story's been fun, so far, and I really wanna' see where these characters go, considering we've gone through three Zods in ten years. However, don't think for a minute this story will be either pivotal or concrete. It's just another story that's going to shake things up for a while and will, in all likelihood, return to the status quo in due time, meaning no movie Zod and no Super-Kid.

Enjoy a story for how fun, how entertaining and well-written and drawn it is, not for how much it's supposed to change the way you think about a character when you know you'll be back to thinking about that character the same way in a year.

Yes! I also like this story as it doesn't contain an infinite crisis. The story is one that anyone who loves the movies or TV shows can pick up and enjoy. The art is spectacular. The Bizarro fight has the feel of a big-screen battle. Everything has been right about the first two chapters in this story. And I can't wait to read the next chapter!

Harding Prime

11-26-2006, 10:01 PM

Everything is going to ridiculed by jackasses like us that will never make a difference in what is going to be written anyways. I do like flashy storylines that have something "epic" happening because it's fucking Superman, something big better happen beyond "The Fall of Metropolis" every month, because I thought it was cool as a kid, but get tired of it now. I stopped reading Superman titles after Up, Up, and Away because the huge alien spectacle was a little more then I took take after the Infinite Crisis and everything going on, give the ****ing humankind a break, and I like the story of the personal dilemma and choices he has to make now that everything has returned to "normal" after IC. But so far I haven't been able to get past the covers of the Superman title because they just look to cheesy to me. But I do like Kurt's work (and he threads on here so I don't want him cursing me out, or dropping me as his myspace buddy), so maybe I'll play some catch up and see if what the consensus of you guys is right.

Who says threads can never come to a peaceful agreement...

Harding Prime

11-26-2006, 10:05 PM

Seriously, if it isn't your slice of pie, it isn't your slice of pie, but those "kid" stories are entertaining, and they aren't wrapped up in the flavor the month crossover that will ultimately be forgotten or ridiculed anyway. I'd rather have stories that are fun and worth reading than tripe I want to forget about fifteen minutes later.

This story's been fun, so far, and I really wanna' see where these characters go, considering we've gone through three Zods in ten years. However, don't think for a minute this story will be either pivotal or concrete. It's just another story that's going to shake things up for a while and will, in all likelihood, return to the status quo in due time, meaning no movie Zod and no Super-Kid.

But seriously, one thing...A Richard Donner, Adam Kubert, Son of Krypton story is not going to just be fogotten anytime soon.

Harding Prime

11-26-2006, 10:08 PM

Seriously dude if you gotta analyze it like that? you might wanna go out and drink a little enjoy the sun, have a few laughs. Up Up and Away was great! one of the best non-event arcs I had read in a long time, but to make that statement you just made I'd assume you're actually reading the other Superman title? because right now Busiek is kickin so much ass on that series it's blowin me away. I can't wait for his next issue just because I'm anxious to see what he'll put Supes through.

I don't know what your referring to that is so bad that I might want to go enjoy the sunshine, (btw, it was nice today). I also enjoyed Up, Up, and Away, great story to get back into the swing of things. I'm not understanding your beef...

Jack Zodiac

11-26-2006, 10:16 PM

But seriously, one thing...A Richard Donner, Adam Kubert, Son of Krypton story is not going to just be fogotten anytime soon.

Maybe not by fans, but by creators and editors? I could see that, because it's happened before. Something huge written by someone huge is huge! It changes that character's life. And then, a few years later, it's ignored. If DC grew some nuts, made a change to Superman's life and actually followed through with it, for the longterm, I would be absolutely amazed, especially something as huge as having a son. Give a character a kid and you're practically giving them a bullseye in swaddling clothes. Scarlet Witch's twins, Wally's twins, Catwoman's daughter, it happens all the time, and I don't see any reason why this one would be different. In the meantime, though, it's a very entertaining story.

Y'know what else I thought was entertaining? The previous arc with The Auctioneer? Honestly, I thought it was one of the best Superman adventures in years, and it wasn't part of any character-changing storyline. It was just a fun, short adventure that had Superman facing all kinds of troubles at once and triumphing.

Harding Prime

11-27-2006, 10:00 AM

Kilgore Trout

11-27-2006, 11:00 AM

Maybe not by fans, but by creators and editors? I could see that, because it's happened before. Something huge written by someone huge is huge! It changes that character's life. And then, a few years later, it's ignored. If DC grew some nuts, made a change to Superman's life and actually followed through with it, for the longterm, I would be absolutely amazed, especially something as huge as having a son. Give a character a kid and you're practically giving them a bullseye in swaddling clothes.

According to Kurt Busiek and Co. everything will be revealed at sometime in the not too distant, but not too near future...

I guess that until then, you're welcome (as I was) to shut the hell up and not worry about such things...

Thank. You. Very. Much.

See, DC has decided that continuity of any kind, from the way comics are told to the very characterizations of its many heroes and villains is no longer important...

NOW the person who tells the most popular version of Superman gets to claim their version as THE version until of course, someone else comes around and writes an even more popular version...

This was apparently the whole point of the IC...

Its basically a "Get Out of Jail" free card and let's the editor off the hook for any and everything...

It’s the final gift of Eddie Berganza! (the Donald Rumsfeld of comics!)

I always thought that the WHOLE POINT of having an "Infinite Crisis" was to clear the deadwood and start on a fresh path, not to muddy up the waters with bits and pieces that the writer of the week decides to add from ANY version of Superman they wish at their whim…

Maybe this really is the return of the SILVER-AGE and I just didn’t get the memo…

Because this just feels like the writer pretty much just writes their Superman story without regard for anything that came before like...

Characterization...

I hate to over-use the analogy but this feels like the way we got into Iraq…

There’s no real plan or blueprint for the continued occupation and now every time you pull one boot out of the tar pit you set the other one in a deeper, stickier pit…

If you think its bad now, just imagine how it will look after 5 years of this... :rolleyes:

Will.S

11-27-2006, 04:22 PM

I always thought that the WHOLE POINT of having an "Infinite Crisis" was to clear the deadwood and start on a fresh path, not to muddy up the waters with bits and pieces that the writer of the week decides to add from ANY version of Superman they wish at their whim… It was difficult to predict the point of Infinite Crisis or where it was heading early into the story. The way IC set up 52 and OYL, it left for alot of leeway for the writers involved to go ahead with the "soft reboot" which I disliked at first but came to like it as it was actually a refreshing idea. DC seems to have a clear path with Superman, they want to add in the best parts of his past and present such as mixing things from the movies, the Smallville tv show, and his regular DC past.

As long as DC runs a tight ship on Superman and none of the writers timelines contradict each other then that's no problem although eventually one title is going to be ahead of the other in some form.

Maybe this really is the return of the SILVER-AGE and I just didn’t get the memo…

Because this just feels like the writer pretty much just writes their Superman story without regard for anything that came before like...

Characterization... What do you mean by disregard for characterization? Although Superman/Clark are a bit more emotive in this title than Kurt's Superman, I didn't see a huge difference in characterization. As long as the basic traits of their personalities are there, their stories dictate their actions.

Harding Prime

11-27-2006, 05:10 PM

Even though IC was somewhat hard to follow at times and hard to find where everyone stood in the end, I too liked the idea. I like a clean cut pathway for my reading pleasure, and with 52 and arc's like Up, Up, and Away and Face the Face, I have enjoyed their attempt at the soft reboot...so far. If the editor can keep the creative teams in check with the continuity and actually knowing what continuity they are working with, the sky is the limit. I am still going to more focus on Action Comics right now, just because it wowed me with the Hollywood blend, so sue me. But it could be a really good story, if anyone would give a chance for the story to develop.

Jack Zodiac

11-27-2006, 05:36 PM

See, DC has decided that continuity of any kind, from the way comics are told to the very characterizations of its many heroes and villains is no longer important...

They have? Awesome! Now they can stop worrying about it and tell stories that don't suck ass.

J. Robb

11-27-2006, 06:24 PM

They have? Awesome! Now they can stop worrying about it and tell stories that don't suck ass.
Based on the past few years, the more they "stop worrying about it", the more the stories "suck ass".

Jack Zodiac

11-27-2006, 06:29 PM

Based on the past few years, the more they "stop worrying about it", the more the stories "suck ass".

I disagree. Unless Superman loses an eye in Action and remains biocular in Superman through the course of various story arcs, I generally don't give a rat's ass whether the continuity's solid. Right now, in Kurt's title, Superman's going to be having a multi-part adventure outside of the continuity in Action, and so long as the story remains good, I won't mind. Now, obviously, is the kid remains an Action only storyline, it would seem rather ridiculous, but I'm sure once Kurt's done with the current storyline in Superman, Super-Kid will become at least a footnote in the title, which is all he needs to be. If Kurt started telling stories around the fact that Superman has a kid, that would hurt the book.

And there's an excellent example of why continuity shouldn't be held above telling a good story.

J. Robb

11-27-2006, 06:39 PM

And there's an excellent example of why continuity shouldn't be held above telling a good story.
I think you can do both.

But for an anology of what reading Superman comics have been like for the past while- say the kid in the "Action" story goes away, then next year, some other writer gets a great story idea about a Kryptonian kid showing up that Superman thinks about adopting. Should they do that story, or should an editor say, "Uh... we just did that. Can't you use the existing kid? Or think up something new?"

Jack Zodiac

11-27-2006, 06:46 PM

That isn't just a matter of continuity, though. That's a matter of crappy and unoriginal writing. Wanting to follow up the kid from Krypton thing with the exact same story a year later is lazy on all parts. Even the current adoption storyline isn't all that original, as Superman's been an adoptive guardian for Kara before, and Conner not so long ago. All this story is doing is taking it to a more personal level with a much younger character who needs a more involved adoption.

I'm not saying continuity should be ignored, but I think that restricting otherwise great stories because of continuity (like telling a story that takes Superman off-world for a long time in one book while he's still protecting Metropolis in another) is a mistake. Especially when it's limiting what could be a really fun story.

J. Robb

11-27-2006, 07:01 PM

I'm not saying continuity should be ignored, but I think that restricting otherwise great stories because of continuity (like telling a story that takes Superman off-world for a long time in one book while he's still protecting Metropolis in another) is a mistake.
Yeah, I don't think the books need to exactly line up, either. In fact, I wouldn't care if they jumped all over the place, stories from Superman's past, future, present, whatever. But I don't think that's what Kilgore was complaining about.

What I think he was saying, or at least what I say, is that too many creators are writing "their" Superman, they put themselves above the character and his history, even recent history, and in an ongoing serial story, that creates very inconsistent storytelling.

Jack Zodiac

11-27-2006, 07:41 PM

To that end, I'll agree. With all characters, though, not just Superman. However, Kurt and Johns have been doing well with him in his titles, even if he hasn't been handled very well outside of them in the past year or so, but before, say, Loeb... it was a free-for-all on who can make something stick about Superman. :p

Kilgore Trout

11-28-2006, 08:04 AM

What I think he was saying, or at least what I say, is that too many creators are writing "their" Superman, they put themselves above the character and his history, even recent history, and in an ongoing serial story, that creates very inconsistent storytelling.

That's about right...

I'm actually MUCH closer to Jack Zodiac's feelings about continuity...

I'd just ask DC to get off the fence on it...

On the one hand it seems they're saying we just want to tell good stories and if something doesn't fit... Well it doesn't!

But then they go to GREAT lengths to tell you how something fits BECAUSE of some continuity pretzel that the current writer 'needs' to make his story work...

Go to DC's MB's and read some of the stuff in the "ASK KURT" thread(s)...

He doesn't contort himself but he seems FULLY immersed in the minutia of DC continuity and how it seems to always work in his favor using his reasoning...

I'd be fully pleased to see many things about current comics revert back to the way they were... It doesn't bother me if Superman is away on a space mission for 6 months in the ACTION title and Clark is stuck at the office over in SUPERMAN...

Just as long as THEY don't try to explain it...

Like I said, this little bit MOS, little bit Birthright, this wait and see, this “a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll” approach, this writer’s gift bag is all well and good in the beginning but where will it be in 5 years with no roadmap except the current writers whimsy?

Like I said, for me, they could just say these stories no longer follow each other anymore and I’d be happy enough… Its just the other 34,999 of you that I’m worried about… :)

Hush Little Batman

11-28-2006, 10:38 AM

The Good

-The backgrounds during the Superman/Bizarro fight were beautiful. Everything from the buildings to the vehicles was gorgeous. It had a very detailed manga-like feel.

-The way the fight started was hilarious. Supes is talking to the kid and outta nowhere *BOOM* Bizarro crashes down.

-Bizarro snapping the arm of some random boy. It was hardcore (for a Superman book) and I like it.

-The one panel continuation of Jimmy’s story about not getting good pictures.

-The boy from Krypton being named “Christopher”. A nice fitting tribute.

-Zod, Ursa and Non arriving in the end. Superman is in desperate need of great villains and these three definitely qualify.

The Bad

-Wildly inconsistent art. On some pages Chris looked like an eight year old and in others, he looks to be five or six.

-While the backgrounds were beautiful during the Supes/Biz fight, all the foreground human characters themselves looked horribly sketchy and unfinished.

-Chris’ sad face to Lois on page 8.

-Chris not moving out of the way of a falling school bus and being totally traumatized by it only to have the presence of mind to fly up and save Lois a few seconds later.

-The awful story cliché of a person realizing they want to give parenthood a shot only after the kid they were rejecting has a near death experience.

-Chris’ characterization.

-The outfits worn by the three super villains.

-Overall storyline feels a bit on the saccharine side.

Bored at 3:00AM

11-28-2006, 10:56 AM

I'm digging it thus far. The art is wildly inconsistent, but when Kubert and company hit--like they did for several pages during the Bizarro fight--the art is fantastic.

I, too, am very happy that DC finally wised up and realised that the most successful and interesting version of the Phantom Zone villains were the ones from the movies. Kneel Before Zod!

I much prefer this version of Lois/Superman/Superboy triangle than what Singer has done thus far in the movies. I like Dooner & Johns' Lois being deathly affraid of motherhood more than her bunking up with Cyclops and being really, really bland. I mean, does anybody think Margot Kidder's Lois would make a great mother?

With the loss of the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle, recasting Lois & Clark as two very different parents would be a great way to bring a spark back into their relationship. I don't know about the rest of you, but the marriage has mostly bored me since they got hitched. Having the very human Lois struggle to be a mother while Clark plays Superdad could lead to some good fun stories.

Then again, this could all be a giant fake out.

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!
ahem.

Harding Prime

11-28-2006, 11:02 AM

I disagree. Unless Superman loses an eye in Action and remains biocular in Superman through the course of various story arcs, I generally don't give a rat's ass whether the continuity's solid. Right now, in Kurt's title, Superman's going to be having a multi-part adventure outside of the continuity in Action, and so long as the story remains good, I won't mind. Now, obviously, is the kid remains an Action only storyline, it would seem rather ridiculous, but I'm sure once Kurt's done with the current storyline in Superman, Super-Kid will become at least a footnote in the title, which is all he needs to be. If Kurt started telling stories around the fact that Superman has a kid, that would hurt the book.

And there's an excellent example of why continuity shouldn't be held above telling a good story.

I think they should go hand and hand. Its not a good story if it doesn't make any sense in the next issue, or have any lasting effects. I can understand to different stories in the two titles, they are not happening at the exact same time. In comics, only usually a day to a week goes by. You can tell a bunch of different stories at the same time, but at the end, they should have a common ground to meet on, they should all be apart of the past as to what he is going to do next. And for that purpose, you would only need the last few stories to make a impact on his next move, because he goes through so much, he can only be effected by the more recent past, not EVERYTHING.

Jack Zodiac

11-28-2006, 12:40 PM

I think they should go hand and hand. Its not a good story if it doesn't make any sense in the next issue, or have any lasting effects.

It's not a good story if it absolutely has to be brought up, embellished, and danced around in the next issue, either, and it's not a great story if it is forcibly dragged along for decades despite its crappiness.

The point is, if you have a good story to tell, tell it, without trying to change the way people look at that book forever, and without trying to fit into a neat little puzzle piece of continuity.

Joe Acro

11-28-2006, 12:45 PM

MaxofSteel

11-28-2006, 01:47 PM

They don't even need to bother putting Donner's name in the credits.

My biggest gripe? The fact that Bizarro talks, save pronouns, normal. Is this part of the training under Luthor? Whatever the case, it damages the "backwards" concept.

Why does the kid need glasses? Do that many people know what he looks like?

Yea the "Bizarro not speaking like Bizarro" thing bugged me too. I'm also not much of a fan of his hair. Maybe it's just me, but I've always envisioned the B-man as being more bald, with patches of hair growing out randomly.

And about Chris' glasses (I still think they should've called him Jason, but I digress), he was seen live and in public just before Bizarro showed up. So his face is somewhat recognizable, escpecially when the kid was seen next to Superman like he was.

Joe Acro

11-28-2006, 01:59 PM

And about Chris' glasses (I still think they should've called him Jason, but I digress), he was seen live and in public just before Bizarro showed up. So his face is somewhat recognizable, escpecially when the kid was seen next to Superman like he was.
I suppose, then, that the glasses will do.

... unless the government starts looking in on this situation. Then it won't work at all and Supes may have compromised his identity.

Harding Prime

11-28-2006, 02:59 PM

It's not a good story if it absolutely has to be brought up, embellished, and danced around in the next issue, either, and it's not a great story if it is forcibly dragged along for decades despite its crappiness.

The point is, if you have a good story to tell, tell it, without trying to change the way people look at that book forever, and without trying to fit into a neat little puzzle piece of continuity.

But I like the past being brought up, it isn't setup in any comics these days as just a bunch of stories that have no canon at all. Its not just a bunch of stories about a character, it's a bunch of stories that make a character, and that is what makes me keep reading. If a character doesn't develop, what the hell is the point of going back to it.

Mister Mets

11-28-2006, 03:54 PM

I'm happy if this arc can establish Zod as one of the great villains in the DCU, given the failure of previous arcs to do the same (although that had something to do with editorial mandates.)

I thought the final twist was great, and sorta established that Lois/Clark wouldn't take care of Chris Kent for long.

J. Robb

11-28-2006, 03:58 PM

Its not just a bunch of stories about a character, it's a bunch of stories that make a character, and that is what makes me keep reading.
Very well put.

Jack Zodiac

11-28-2006, 04:06 PM

But I like the past being brought up, it isn't setup in any comics these days as just a bunch of stories that have no canon at all. Its not just a bunch of stories about a character, it's a bunch of stories that make a character, and that is what makes me keep reading. If a character doesn't develop, what the hell is the point of going back to it.

First of all, I'm not saying that continuity should be completely ignored in every regard. Like, if someone decided to write an issue of Action about Clark chasing after Lois set in modern day Metropolis when just last month the two were snuggling happily on the couch in their apartment. It's when a writer comes up with what could be a good idea and then ruins it by trying to neatly fit it into continuity.

The dictator Zod from Loeb's run on Superman, for instance. I was perfectly content with him being just a freakishly strong dictator who happened to be named Zod, and then they decided they had to tapdance around the pocket universe Zod and made the new Zod an orphan kid with pocket universe Zod's soul in him and... plop! Screwed the pooch.

Continuity can be fine. Dancing around said continuity can be a waste of a good story.

MaxofSteel

11-28-2006, 04:20 PM

I'm happy if this arc can establish Zod as one of the great villains in the DCU, given the failure of previous arcs to do the same

I think it'd be funny (when this new Zod makes himself known) for Supes' reaction to be something along the lines of:

"So... which Zod are YOU supposed to be exactly?"

and then Zod would be all like:

"The movie one! Now kneel before me!"

then Supes would be all like:

"No."

Man, Zod would be sooooo pissed!:D

Sean Whitmore

11-28-2006, 05:33 PM

The Good
The Bad
(Trimmed for space)

I pretty much agree with all of your points. And I'll add that I, too, was disappointed with Bizarro's rather normal speech patterns. His backwards-speak is the one interesting tic the character has.

SEAN

Mister Mets

11-28-2006, 05:55 PM

I think it'd be funny (when this new Zod makes himself known) for Supes' reaction to be something along the lines of:

"So... which Zod are YOU supposed to be exactly?"

and then Zod would be all like:

"The movie one! Now kneel before me!"

then Supes would be all like:

"No."

Man, Zod would be sooooo pissed!:D

The writers could reference the alternate versions of Zod (the John Byrne one for instance as that storyline will likely be reprinted soon) to cool effect, with the realization that this is the real Zod.

In that case, all the imposters were building up to this battle.

90'sCartoonMan

11-28-2006, 09:46 PM

I know they named the kid after Christopher Reeve, but I still liked it because it's my name. Why Lois thinks it's silly (or maybe the idea that she thought of the name when she was a kid) is beyond me.

I like this kid, better than Damian anyway. He's not Sin-level cute, but I liked his expressions during the Bizarro fight, he was really freaked out.

This story's a lot more fun if you take it as it is and don't worry about how it'll impact future Superman stories.

Sean Whitmore

11-28-2006, 09:54 PM

Just to keep the tradition alive, Damien would definitely kill Christopher in a fight. :D

SEAN

Harding Prime

11-29-2006, 10:05 AM

Kannoos

11-29-2006, 10:32 AM

I have only one problem with this new Kryptonian kid : his survival means that Superman is now the second-last son of Krypton, which doesn't really have the same ring to it.:D .

Jack Zodiac

11-29-2006, 11:00 AM

I find this Zod to be alot like Loeb's Supergirl. You can dance around and make alternate versions of a character (especially after the first crisis), but nothing really works like the original.

That is what Loeb did with Supergirl, with rave reviews (at least from me and copies sold), and that is what Donner is doing, bring back the original form, since its already what everyone knows.

To be fair, Loeb's Supergirl ain't pound-fer-pound the original Kara Zor-El, but that's something else for other threads. The idea, though, is right. Go with the one most people recognize, and most people recognize the General Zod from "Superman II." Which is a great idea, unless he tries to fit the new Zod in with every other crappy version of Zod we've seen since 1988.

Sean Whitmore

11-29-2006, 11:38 AM

Alex L

11-29-2006, 12:20 PM

I pretty much agree with all of your points. And I'll add that I, too, was disappointed with Bizarro's rather normal speech patterns. His backwards-speak is the one interesting tic the character has.

SEAN
In this iteration, he's not a friendly backwards character.

He's much more generic this time out, having Superman's powers but not the moral compass, but since this particualr Bizarro is more of a secondary villian it works.

Jack Zodiac

11-29-2006, 12:57 PM

Except the original Zod sucked. He was, like, a second or third banana as far as Phantom Zone criminals went.

SEAN

Yeah, I took his "original Zod" to me "most well known," since even writers seem to forget Dru-Zod (and rightfully so). General Zod from the movies is a much better villain and much more memorable.

Harding Prime

11-29-2006, 01:28 PM

Except the original Zod sucked. He was, like, a second or third banana as far as Phantom Zone criminals went.

SEAN

True, but I was really going by what Jack said in it being the most recognized Zod by Superman II, which is based on the original Zod, just made alot more powerful. But then again, we don't know how far this Zod in Action can go.

Joe Acro

11-29-2006, 01:31 PM

In this iteration, he's not a friendly backwards character.

He's much more generic this time out, having Superman's powers but not the moral compass, but since this particualr Bizarro is more of a secondary villian it works.
You make it sound as if it's a different Bizarro.

Sean Whitmore

11-29-2006, 02:12 PM

In this iteration, he's not a friendly backwards character.

I don't necessarily miss the "dumb puppy" version of Bizarro, just the dialogue. I mean, we've seen the bad-guy-with-Superman's-powers plot before, but only Bizarro says "good bye" when he enters a room. :)

True, but I was really going by what Jack said in it being the most recognized Zod by Superman II, which is based on the original Zod, just made alot more powerful. But then again, we don't know how far this Zod in Action can go.

Ah, gotcha.

SEAN

Jack Zodiac

11-29-2006, 02:32 PM

I don't necessarily miss the "dumb puppy" version of Bizarro, just the dialogue. I mean, we've seen the bad-guy-with-Superman's-powers plot before, but only Bizarro says "good bye" when he enters a room. :)

Personally, I love the "dumb puppy" Bizarro (awesome metaphor, by the way :)), but for this story and those scenes, an angrier, controlled Bizarro was needed. And it made sense, like when Machester Black mind-controlled almost all of Superman's rogues and made Bizarro a lot more brutal for the story. And I could care less how exactly his dialogue is constructed so long as he talks in negatives most of the time. As fun as his run was, sometimes I wanted to rip my own eyes out reading Loeb's version of Bizarro. :p

Harding Prime

11-29-2006, 04:28 PM

When it comes to Bizarro, it reminds me alot of how I have been talking about Talia in the Morrison Batman lately. Not to sound hypocritical after my whole continuity rant, but the minor characters characterization is not the first thing I am worried about. I want a good job done on the main character so that he evolves, and I want to recognize the minor characters and how they react and what they hold over the main character. Beyond that I think the creator can tweak it to there liking, like Morrison and Johns have done.

Sean Whitmore

11-29-2006, 04:34 PM

Joe Acro

11-29-2006, 07:44 PM

And I could care less how exactly his dialogue is constructed so long as he talks in negatives most of the time. As fun as his run was, sometimes I wanted to rip my own eyes out reading Loeb's version of Bizarro. :p
Those last two sentences seem contradictory. Loeb wrote perfect Bizarro-speak. Nevertheless, he doesn't talk like that in this issue. At all.

Why has Bizarro become a murdering machine? I don't remember him killing anyone Pre-IC.

Jack Zodiac

11-29-2006, 08:26 PM

Nothing contradictory about it. The idea is that Bizarro is backwards, and that idea can be conveyed with a simple, occasional negative, like "Batzarro am worst enemy" meaning Batzarro's his best friend, or "Goodbye!" meaning "Hello!" When Loeb used him for that nice, big, six-issue or so arc, though, I thought my brain was gonna' bleed having to carefully translate all of the negatives in his sentences. All you need to know is that the idea is Bizarro's backwards, and you got that in this appearance without him having to say "this am Superboy" to mean "this isn't Superboy" or "humans am indestructible" to mean "humans are weak."

Aside from him being more violent than usual, he came across as classic Bizarro without having to be a word jumble.

dupersuper

11-29-2006, 10:03 PM

Bizzaro becoming amurdering machine with slightly different speech patterns may have something to do with Lex Luthor training/imprisoning him. It'd certainly affect me...

Bored at 3:00AM

11-29-2006, 10:22 PM

I don't mind this version of Bizarro. It's not Bizarro #1, whom I love, but it is Bizarro, Superman's Imperfect Clone.

Should a writer need Bizarro #1 for a story, they can easily bring him back. But this version certainly worked for the story Johns & Donner told.

Joe Acro

11-29-2006, 10:23 PM

Bored at 3:00AM

11-29-2006, 10:26 PM

Where did this new Bizarro come from? And why didn't Lex use him to deal with Supes in Up, Up, and Away?

I assume it's Bizarro #1, but, as Luthor mentioned in this issue, he's been brainwashing him for the past year to serve as his lapdog.

batturtle

11-29-2006, 10:50 PM

I can't say that I'm a Superman fan per say.
I enjoy the character best only when he's on a team (written by Grant Morrison preferably), hanging out with Batman or in animated form.

But I'm really enjoying Action Comics as written by Johns and Donner.
There's definatly a big screen / John Williams score sense to the whole thing.
I haven't looked at a lot of Kubert's art in the past (not much of a Marvel fan), but think that he's doing a great job as well. Like his stuff much better than his siblings efforts over on Batman (though I'm a much bigger fan of that character).

And if a bit overly sentimantal, naming the new Superboy Christopher is a nice touch.

Alex L

11-30-2006, 10:23 AM

You make it sound as if it's a different Bizarro.

Well, since modern age Bizarro is little more than a flawed Superman clone, it certainly could be...

Harding Prime

12-01-2006, 11:57 AM

I can't say that I'm a Superman fan per say.
I enjoy the character best only when he's on a team (written by Grant Morrison preferably), hanging out with Batman or in animated form.

But I'm really enjoying Action Comics as written by Johns and Donner.
There's definatly a big screen / John Williams score sense to the whole thing.
I haven't looked at a lot of Kubert's art in the past (not much of a Marvel fan), but think that he's doing a great job as well. Like his stuff much better than his siblings efforts over on Batman (though I'm a much bigger fan of that character).

I have always been a big fan of Andy Kubert back from his X-men days, so I am more partial to his artwork. He is also coming out with a varient cover for 844 this coming wednesday, like Adam did for Batman 655 I believe. But I am enjoying Adam's work on AC, his artwork is unique and it gives the writing that cinematic feel it was looking for.

linkorien

12-02-2006, 04:27 AM

ok ya good for biz and his change right, and cool zods hear and new/old

hears my beef as iv seen it put.... the kid GOOD BYE plane and simple the kid needs to go right now good bye the movie was so F-Bomb retarted i cried, i was looking forward to it so bad... and then that son of a gun brian singer went and destroyed everything cause he thinks hes a comic book fan......... if he knew jack about jack a kid would never have reached the paper for the script

and as far as DC useing a kid for supermans ACTION i hate every last page of it zods back thats cool not lees zod and i guess thats cool i really can go ether way with the bizaro but personaly i always thoght he kinda sucked any ways like batman superman vengeance....... what a mind bogaling read that was

kill the kid pleas god

the only question i have...... whens con-el coming back? the real superboy, the one iv come to love over the past yrs, i mean come on "ya aint it cool"
he saved the world no he saved time and history (to a degree) its self and all that bad A had to say was "ya aint it cool"

linkorien

12-02-2006, 04:35 AM

HO and hi im new to the forum /wave names link love superman love batman love DC marvel can can go to a firey place i wont say and thats about it

my favrit things of late

IC nice and new
jason todd coming back o man was that sweet i just want more
superman up up and away a new clasic
wounder womans snap attack to max god can it get any better
lanter corps back in action
hal punching batman.... one hit
batman punching guy.... lol one hit
and barts on the way to becoming the new great flash

just figuerd id throw my thoghts in hear so you guys know im not just jumping in with a i saw the movie and read one comic typ mind

any ways hi from me and hope to have alot to talk about

Harding Prime

12-02-2006, 03:38 PM

Does everyone forget that Conner is a clone... I kinda liked the character, but could never get past that.

dupersuper

12-02-2006, 03:59 PM

So he was a clone. What's to get past?

Harding Prime

12-02-2006, 04:28 PM

I guess the fact that a clone is not a real person, in fiction or otherwise...

Sean Whitmore

12-02-2006, 04:31 PM

I guess the fact that a clone is not a real person, in fiction or otherwise...

Of course they are. How was Superboy not a real person?

SEAN

Harding Prime

12-02-2006, 04:34 PM

Of course they are. How was Superboy not a real person?
SEAN

Check the definition of a Clone...

Sean Whitmore

12-02-2006, 04:43 PM

Check the definition of a Clone...

Or, alternately, read some of the hundreds of Superboy appearances there have been. By any standard I can think of, he's a real person.

SEAN

Harding Prime

12-02-2006, 04:54 PM

Or, alternately, read some of the hundreds of Superboy appearances there have been. By any standard I can think of, he's a real person.

SEAN

I know....that doesn't make any sense to me, that is why I say I liked the character in the story, but it didn't make him real, they should have retconned that. Maybe they did, he could be just a test tube baby and not a clone. I don't like the word clone or much assocaited with it. Just a thing of mine.

Sean Whitmore

12-02-2006, 05:01 PM

I know....that doesn't make any sense to me, that is why I say I liked the character in the story, but it didn't make him real, they should have retconned that. Maybe they did, he could be just a test tube baby and not a clone. I don't like the word clone or much assocaited with it. Just a thing of mine.

The way I look at it is that in comics, whether they outright state it or not, souls must exist. It's the only real way to reconcile, say, the Vision or the Red Tornado showing emotion. I mean, they're just a pile of microchips...they shouldn't be loving anybody, but they do. So you figure, if robots can spontaneously becomong "living beings", why not a clone? :)

SEAN

Harding Prime

12-02-2006, 05:06 PM

But speaking of Conner Kent, and Superboy's as they have been coming and going lately, and speaking of this comic, I seriously doubt this kid will stick around. It seemed apparent to me from 844 that the kid was a bad seed, not that he showed it, just that that is where the story has to go. I see in the end he will be like a puppy having Superman and Zod calling for him to come to one or the other while he is in the middle.

MaxofSteel

12-02-2006, 05:34 PM

Not to change the subject here guys, but I have a quick question that doesn't seem very "new thread worthy" to me.

Ever since Infinite Crisis, I wondered if Superman: Birthright was still in continuity. And judging from how young Ma and Pa Kent look it seems like it is.

Can anyone confirm this?

Sean Whitmore

12-02-2006, 06:10 PM

Ever since Infinite Crisis, I wondered if Superman: Birthright was still in continuity. And judging from how young Ma and Pa Kent look it seems like it is.

Can anyone confirm this?

After IC, it's really become a matter of cherry-picking which aspects of Superman's past the writers like best. The young parents from Birthright just make sense.

Which is to say, at this point, no origin story is definitive.

SEAN

MaxofSteel

12-02-2006, 06:18 PM

After IC, it's really become a matter of cherry-picking which aspects of Superman's past the writers like best. The young parents from Birthright just make sense.

Which is to say, at this point, no origin story is definitive.

SEAN

Oh ok cool. Yea I have to say I'm a fan of the young parents. There's just more options storywise that are available now imo.

Thanks for the info Sean.

Jack Zodiac

12-02-2006, 11:50 PM

I guess the fact that a clone is not a real person, in fiction or otherwise...

He isn't a clone of Superman, he's a genetically engineered hybrid being using Lex Luthor's DNA and Superman's DNA. Were he an actual, authentic clone, he would've been born from a human female, after having an enucleated egg with whatever cells used from both Superman and Lex transplanted into her uterus. So far as I know, you can't clone a new being using two different types of cells from two different beings. It defeats the definition of "clone."

Also, it's been thoroughly stated that he has a soul. Johns went through it all in an entire issue back a while to make sure people would know he went to puppy dog heaven when he died in the Crisis.

The Shadow

12-03-2006, 01:05 AM

Bored at 3:00AM

12-03-2006, 06:54 AM

Quick question (that may have been answered elsewhere but I've only skimmed the posts)... that I can't answer because the bulk of my collection is 3,000 miles away... BUT...

I thought Superman killed the 3 Kryptonians in Superman #14 (maybe that's the wrong issue but it was during Byrne's run). So... if Zod died (and Zod was one of the 3 killed right?) how did Zod reappear years later? And is this a new Zod or the same Zod that fought Superman in Lee/Azzurello's Superman arc?

Infinite Crisis tweaked Superman's history again. Apparently, one of the changes made was to restore Zod to his more well-known incarnation. How all the previous Zods fit into this is anybody's guess right now.

Wikipedia should fill you in on the details.

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 08:46 AM

I thought Superman killed the 3 Kryptonians in Superman #14 (maybe that's the wrong issue but it was during Byrne's run). So... if Zod died (and Zod was one of the 3 killed right?) how did Zod reappear years later? And is this a new Zod or the same Zod that fought Superman in Lee/Azzurello's Superman arc?

Supes killed the 3 Kryptonians in Matrix Supergirl's dimenson/universe, since that particular trio were up to so many evil shenanigans there. So it's possible that there's yet another trio in Supe's dimension/universe that just we haven't seen yet.

It's also possible that this "new" Zod is the Azarello Zod, but it's hard to be sure. The hair color/age of this new one seems different, but at the same time this trio seems to have come from the Phantom Zone as well. I guess the next ish will tell us for sure.

Ramz

12-03-2006, 09:40 AM

Jack Tango

12-03-2006, 12:10 PM

...considering we've gone through three Zods in ten years...

Four, actually...

Return to Krypton Zod
Pokolistan Zod
For Tomorrow Zod
Johns & Donners' Zod

Count the Pocket Universe Zod, and that makes Donners and Johns' version #5 since 1986...

Harding Prime

12-03-2006, 12:51 PM

He isn't a clone of Superman, he's a genetically engineered hybrid being using Lex Luthor's DNA and Superman's DNA. Were he an actual, authentic clone, he would've been born from a human female, after having an enucleated egg with whatever cells used from both Superman and Lex transplanted into her uterus. So far as I know, you can't clone a new being using two different types of cells from two different beings. It defeats the definition of "clone."

Also, it's been thoroughly stated that he has a soul. Johns went through it all in an entire issue back a while to make sure people would know he went to puppy dog heaven when he died in the Crisis.

He is still considered a clone by all aspects of what DC says. But I do see where Raven exposes to Conner that he does have a young soul, but that was right before the crisis, and I didn't really keep up with much of Superboy since after Reign of the Supermen and Zero Hour. Thanks for the "update".

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 01:03 PM

couple of pics I thought were damn sweet. If you dont like this art, you are insane!

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6852/09ym9.jpg

bizzaro looked damn awesome also

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6083/oatsrd3.jpg

How new is that technique Adam uses (with the stylized swish lines on his figures)? For example the lines in Bizarro's arms and legs. It's an interesting touch, I like it.

Btw have you seen the cover of Action # 847? It's badass!

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=21773

Harding Prime

12-03-2006, 01:09 PM

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/sharding1/Action847Cover.jpg

That is fantastic art, Phantom Zone....?

The Shadow

12-03-2006, 01:18 PM

Infinite Crisis tweaked Superman's history again. Apparently, one of the changes made was to restore Zod to his more well-known incarnation. How all the previous Zods fit into this is anybody's guess right now.
DAMMIT I hate it when DC keeps tweaking things... it's not too bad if they do it sloooowly over decades... but how many tweaks have there been since Byrne?

Supes killed the 3 Kryptonians in Matrix Supergirl's dimenson/universe, since that particular trio were up to so many evil shenanigans there.
So those weren't from Superman's real universe? Was one of the a Zod?

It's also possible that this "new" Zod is the Azarello Zod, but it's hard to be sure. The hair color/age of this new one seems different, but at the same time this trio seems to have come from the Phantom Zone as well. I guess the next ish will tell us for sure.
How did the Azzurello Zod get out of the Phantom Zone in the first place??

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 01:32 PM

So those weren't from Superman's real universe? Was one of the a Zod?

How did the Azzurello Zod get out of the Phantom Zone in the first place??

Yea in "Supergirl's" Universe, one of the three Kryptonians was Zod (the others I'm not too sure about).

But Azzarello's Zod didn't get out (at first anyway). It was Supes who got in when:

*Spoilers ahead*

He created an artificial paradise in the Phantom Zone, and built a device to transport people/things there, then mind-wiped himself to forget for some reason.

Azzarello's Zod was in there the whole time, pissed that Supes messed with his "world". At the end of the arc, Zod gets sucked into a portal, and we're left not really sure what happened to him.

Will.S

12-03-2006, 01:40 PM

couple of pics I thought were damn sweet. If you dont like this art, you are insane!

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6852/09ym9.jpg
Man having seen this one again, Adam drew Superman insanely bulky here.

Btw have you seen the cover of Action # 847? It's badass!

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=21773 I'm sort of dreading that issue due to it's 3D glasses gimmick of viewing the Phantom Zone.

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 01:46 PM

I'm sort of dreading that issue due to it's 3D glasses gimmick of viewing the Phantom Zone.

Really? I hadn't heard about a 3D glasses thing. I don't mind it much though.

The Shadow

12-03-2006, 02:26 PM

Azzarello's Zod was in there the whole time, pissed that Supes messed with his "world". At the end of the arc, Zod gets sucked into a portal, and we're left not really sure what happened to him.
So then it's not impossible Donner's Zod just went and hooked back up with his 2 friends and now wants revenge?

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 03:12 PM

So then it's not impossible Donner's Zod just went and hooked back up with his 2 friends and now wants revenge?

That's my best explanation for it.

The Shadow

12-03-2006, 04:20 PM

That's my best explanation for it.
OK!

I'm not too hung up on continuity... but I like consistency. Multiple Zod's from different places and one thought dead Zod is just too many! LOL

Thanks!

MaxofSteel

12-03-2006, 05:08 PM

OK!

I'm not too hung up on continuity... but I like consistency. Multiple Zod's from different places and one thought dead Zod is just too many! LOL

Thanks!

Heheh, no prob.

Still though, it's possible that Azzarello's Zod and Action #845 Zod are different Zods. But yea I agree that it'd be nice if they kept the "Zodness" to a minimum.:D

Ramz

12-03-2006, 10:11 PM

How new is that technique Adam uses (with the stylized swish lines on his figures)? For example the lines in Bizarro's arms and legs. It's an interesting touch, I like it.

Btw have you seen the cover of Action # 847? It's badass!

Ya, I really like the lines used, but there were a few panel's where I was confused as to what exactly happened during the bizarro and superman fight. (anyone else in the same boat?)

and nay, I havent seen that cover yet. it looks damn sweet!

Jack Zodiac

12-03-2006, 10:49 PM

Four, actually...

Return to Krypton Zod
Pokolistan Zod
For Tomorrow Zod
Johns & Donners' Zod

Count the Pocket Universe Zod, and that makes Donners and Johns' version #5 since 1986...

I wasn't counting Donner's new Zod, but I did forget about the other "pocket universe" Zod from Return to Krypton.

Jack Zodiac

12-03-2006, 10:53 PM

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6852/09ym9.jpg

The scene looks amazing, and the detail is incredible, but Superman's proportions are off. His arms are long enough to touch his ankles standing straight up.

Harding Prime

12-04-2006, 10:37 AM

The scene looks amazing, and the detail is incredible, but Superman's proportions are off. His arms are long enough to touch his ankles standing straight up.

I don't see that at all...he is bending his knees and I still don't think he could touch his ankles as is. He seems proportioned fine, and he is kinda bulky in the arms, but he just got a spaceship, your muscles flex when you work-out and perform hard tasks. I'm sure catching a large flying object could be considered a workout even for supes.

Ramz

12-04-2006, 01:11 PM

The scene looks amazing, and the detail is incredible, but Superman's proportions are off. His arms are long enough to touch his ankles standing straight up.
I don't reallly see it. He's bending in more places than one, his knees, he's hunching, his arms may be slightly long, but not down to his ankles. Either way, I'm lovin' the art, HARD. I love how he draws Clark also, everything about him seems totally different than Supes, its sweet.

Hush Little Batman

12-04-2006, 04:05 PM

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6852/09ym9.jpg

The background is great; Superman is not, but the worst thing about that picture - all that destruction and the birds never moved off their perches. :D

Harding Prime

12-04-2006, 04:07 PM

The background is great; Superman is not, but the worst thing about that picture - all that destruction and the birds never moved off their perches. :D

That's comical, kinda like the cat...

Jack Zodiac

12-04-2006, 04:16 PM

I don't reallly see it. He's bending in more places than one, his knees, he's hunching, his arms may be slightly long, but not down to his ankles. Either way, I'm lovin' the art, HARD. I love how he draws Clark also, everything about him seems totally different than Supes, its sweet.

Look at the length of his forearm in that scene. Even if he had proper posture under those proportions, he'd be almost ape-like. Despite that, the scene is great, because there's so much action in it you'd barely notice.

sgt pepper

12-04-2006, 04:21 PM

The background is great; Superman is not, but the worst thing about that picture - all that destruction and the birds never moved off their perches. :D

Between panels, they flew up and landed again. Sorted.

Or maybe they're the rare Metropolis pigeons that have no fear. They're also very dumb and get killed very easily, hence the cat waiting for easy prey.

Ramz

12-04-2006, 11:39 PM

Look at the length of his forearm in that scene. Even if he had proper posture under those proportions, he'd be almost ape-like. Despite that, the scene is great, because there's so much action in it you'd barely notice.
Ya I agree, they are massive arms, I just dont think they'd be to his ankels is all.

Ramz

12-04-2006, 11:40 PM

Between panels, they flew up and landed again. Sorted.

Or maybe they're the rare Metropolis pigeons that have no fear. They're also very dumb and get killed very easily, hence the cat waiting for easy prey.
they know supes is around to catch oversized cheesewheels when the come crashing down on them, so ya, I'd imagine they'd have zero fear. ;)

BYC

12-06-2006, 12:11 AM

Maybe it's time for General Zod to visit the other Zods in DC...and kill each one.

Kinda like Jet Li's The One.

I'm only semi-joking. I would enjoy seeing the destruction of bad characters.

Lorendiac

01-11-2007, 04:39 PM

Maybe not by fans, but by creators and editors? I could see that, because it's happened before. Something huge written by someone huge is huge! It changes that character's life. And then, a few years later, it's ignored. If DC grew some nuts, made a change to Superman's life and actually followed through with it, for the longterm, I would be absolutely amazed, especially something as huge as having a son. Give a character a kid and you're practically giving them a bullseye in swaddling clothes. Scarlet Witch's twins, Wally's twins, Catwoman's daughter, it happens all the time, and I don't see any reason why this one would be different. In the meantime, though, it's a very entertaining story.

I was looking through this thread and stumbled across your comment about "a bullseye in swaddling clothes." It made me laugh -- but it was one of those bitter laughs because of the unpleasant truth of what you said. Of course, as I once wrote about at length, even a pregnancy in a superhero's life can often turn into a frightful mess as someone in the editorial offices suddenly wakes up and says, "Pregnancy? But if we let that continue normally -- it could result in a baby who needed tender loving care! And we can't have that, can we?"

I'm reminded of a piece I wrote a couple of years ago in which I went into all that in much greater detail. It's no longer here on CBR (got erased because of its old age, I guess) but there's a copy at

Superhero Reproduction (Part 2): Pregnancy Problems (http://thekryptonian.com/showthread.php?t=4353)

In it, I listed the 5 ways a comic book publisher might "resolve" the "problem" of a female hero (or the Significant Other of a high-profile male hero) being pregnant:

1. Failed Pregnancy
2. Abnormal Pregnancy
3. Disappearing Child
4. The Retcon Erasure
5. "Situation Normal"

"Situation Normal" means the mommy and the daddy will actually spend the next several years raising the kid in a normal fashion. Not just that they sincerely intended to do it that way -- but that the various writers and editors in years to come will allow them to get away with it! The only good example I could think of, where it's (generally) worked out that way in practice for the child of high-profile superheroes, was Franklin Richards. (And all sorts of nonsense has been done with him too, intermittently, by FF writers who resented his presence in continuity as a small child.)

Come to think of it . . . one of these days, I really need to reread all Franklin's appearances in FF comics and take notes on all the silly things people have tried to do to "solve" the "problem" of his existence as a pre-teen child in the home life of Reed and Sue. I promised I would do so someday, but I've put it off for quite some time . . .

dupersuper

01-12-2007, 01:18 PM

[QUOTE=BYC;4076951]Maybe it's time for General Zod to visit the other Zods in DC...and kill each one.

Kinda like Jet Li's The One.

QUOTE]

Only problem is that 3 are already dead. He can kill the Azerello 1 though...assuming he's not the same person. I suppose if he is, he could still kill him by commiting suicide...

IamtheRock3

01-12-2007, 08:45 PM

wonder will any other comics mention this son thing

Jack Zodiac

01-16-2007, 01:00 AM

Kurt's bringing him into Superman in part two of his "Camelot Falls" arc, I believe.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-16-2007, 06:48 AM

Four, actually...

Return to Krypton Zod
Pokolistan Zod
For Tomorrow Zod
Johns & Donners' Zod

Count the Pocket Universe Zod, and that makes Donners and Johns' version #5 since 1986...

I'm pretty much sure that the For Tomorrow Zod and the Johns & Donners' Zod are one and the same.

Karl O'Neill

01-16-2007, 06:57 AM

I'm pretty much sure that the For Tomorrow Zod and the Johns & Donners' Zod are one and the same.

i am terror , i am zod.

i'd say they are different, from reading that story alone

666MasterOfPuppets

01-16-2007, 07:35 AM

i am terror , i am zod.

i'd say they are different, from reading that story alone

Well, the thing is that both of them were imprisoned in The Phantom Zone by Jor-El himself, and both of them call themselves Zod. Besides, Azzarello's Zod remained in the Phantom Zone after Metropia was destroyed.

What strikes me as odd is that neither ursa nor Non appeared in For Tomorrow, which represented the most recent visit Superman made to the hellish prison. But what would Azzarello know about Donner and Johns' plans?

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!

Karl O'Neill

01-16-2007, 07:49 AM

Well, the thing is that both of them were imprisoned in The Phantom Zone by Jor-El himself, and both of them call themselves Zod. Besides, Azzarello's Zod remained in the Phantom Zone after Metropia was destroyed.

What strikes me as odd is that neither ursa nor Non appeared in For Tomorrow, which represented the most recent visit Superman made to the hellish prison. But what would Azzarello know about Donner and Johns' plans?

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!

True, For tomorrow could have been a Classic, Azzarello is a Gifted writer. lee an amazing artist.

question is what happened?

666MasterOfPuppets

01-16-2007, 08:30 AM

In my book, For Tomorrow is a classic story. In fact, it's one of the best Superman stories I've read in years.

I take you didn't like it?

MaxofSteel

01-16-2007, 10:48 AM

In my book, For Tomorrow is a classic story. In fact, it's one of the best Superman stories I've read in years.

I loved it, albeit had a hard time following the dialogue once in a while but still. It's one of my fav Supes stories.

Jack Zodiac

01-16-2007, 01:40 PM

J. Robb

01-16-2007, 02:06 PM

Based on the fact that we've already had two Zods since "Infinite Crisis" (an Admiral and a General), in one issue Superman should off-handedly mention that "Zod" is like "Smith" on Krypton.

Jack Zodiac

01-16-2007, 02:45 PM

"Hi, nice to meet you! My name is Zod Z. Zodson, this is my boy Zodathan, and this is my wife, Zodhana."

Sean Whitmore

01-16-2007, 02:52 PM

I always figured "Zod" on Krypton was kinda like the name "Anthony" among Italians.

"Yeah, this is my son Anthony and his brother Tony. And the little one, Baby T."

SEAN

glennsim

01-16-2007, 03:04 PM

In my book, For Tomorrow is a classic story. In fact, it's one of the best Superman stories I've read in years.

I take you didn't like it?

I might have liked it if I understood what the heck was happening in it.

But I accept 50% of the responsibility for the problem there...

dupersuper

01-16-2007, 03:13 PM

Couldn't Azerellos Zod be the Dru Zod mentioned in Up Up and Away?

Karl O'Neill

01-17-2007, 03:35 AM

In my book, For Tomorrow is a classic story. In fact, it's one of the best Superman stories I've read in years.

I take you didn't like it?

I think lee's art was rushed.

I can't help comparing the story to loeb's hush, even tho they are different books and different characters HUSH was/ is a TOUR DE FORCE

666MasterOfPuppets

01-17-2007, 06:59 AM

I thought it was crap, and the further removed this new Zod is from that one, the better. Forget every Zod before him, he's the new Zod, build him up from that. More than that, springboard from the only recognizable Zod people unfamiliar with the Superman comics know and build this new Zod up from movie Zod. He's the only one that was worth a damn anyway, even if he did have an unusual kneeling fixation.

I can live with that. Movie Zod is the best. Sadly, Azzarello's Zod wasn't fully developed.

I loved it, albeit had a hard time following the dialogue once in a while but still. It's one of my fav Supes stories.

I might have liked it if I understood what the heck was happening in it.

But I accept 50% of the responsibility for the problem there...

I hear you guys. From the beginning I knew it was going to be a different story (after all, Jim Lee had warned us :p). It was a story full of metaphors, allusions to God and the Devil.

Couldn't Azerellos Zod be the Dru Zod mentioned in Up Up and Away?

I pretty much think so...

I think lee's art was rushed.

I can't help comparing the story to loeb's hush, even tho they are different books and different characters HUSH was/ is a TOUR DE FORCE

I'll have to read that story one of these days. However, I didn't see much difference in Lee's art between For Tomorrow and Hush.