Avenger: Classic and New finding the middle ground. [Archive]

o1pickleboy

11-22-2006, 01:28 AM

I believe that sooner or later will(or perhaps should) try to bridge the gap between New Avenger fans and the fans the Classic Avengers. My question to you out there is what would it take? Would you read Bendis decompression style of writing. If comic featured the character's of the classic Avengers? Would you read the characters of the new Avengers if they were writen by someone else. As for the New Avengers fan what from the old could you live with and enjoy?

What would it take for you? Where is the middle ground?

and before anyone says that there is nothing in common or nothing that the fans can agree on. I say Captain America

XPac

11-22-2006, 01:50 AM

I like both New Avengers and the classic ones, so I'm probably not the person to ask.

That said, I wonder if Mighty Avengers won't be an attempt to bridge the gap between New Avengers and the classic Avengers.

Shellhead

11-22-2006, 06:50 AM

Bendis needs to go, because I just don't like the way he writes a team book. I am willing to believe there are several writers who are capable of writing entertaining stories with the New Avengers line-up, but I would enjoy seeing at least a couple more classic Avengers around. By classic, I mean nearly any Avenger who joined the team before issue #200.

brundlefly

11-22-2006, 07:37 AM

I'm with Shellhead; a different writer is definitely the solution.

Xanrn

11-22-2006, 07:54 AM

Bah I have loved every Issue of New Avengers.

Just wait for Mighty Avengers...

Ullar

11-22-2006, 08:22 AM

i love both!

BlackKnight

11-22-2006, 08:38 AM

A new writer is needed, to me NA has felt like wading through molasses. Bendis is a great writer when he writes crime nior like (DD and Alias) or when he is dealing with a group that he created all the history for.
But has a lot of problems working with history that he did not write, and staying even close to true with some of the charaters with a lot of history.

So basically, Bendis needs to leave NA, and go back to what he writes best.

Beast

11-22-2006, 08:52 AM

Just wait for Might Avengers. It's much more 'Classic Feel' Avengers from what we've seen and heard.

XPac

11-22-2006, 09:28 AM

For those that miss the more classic Avengers style, there's always Marvel Adventures Avengers. The way I see it, Marvel is trying to cover all their bases. They've got the Bendised New Avengers, Marvel Advenures Avengers, and Mighty.

In a lot of ways, it's a good time to be an Avengers fan since they're all over the place (something we can thank Bendis for, if nothing else).

Crimson

11-22-2006, 09:31 AM

Bah I have loved every Issue of New Avengers.

Just wait for Mighty Avengers...

Bendis said on his Word Balloon Q&A while its different from "New" Avengers it not the classic, old school feel people are expecting.

DDM

11-22-2006, 09:42 AM

Brian Michael Bendis needs to go away from any true Avengers title because the current New Avengers is not the true Avengers. Bendis love for story dempression, continuous off-panel battles such as Alpha Flight's battle with the Collective, & gimmicks such as Spider-Man, Wolverine, & Ronin is just padding for Bendis' weaknesses to tell any good super-hero story. Bendis is too reliant on dues ex machinas such as Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch, & Magneto to make up for his non-stories. Bendis' New Avengers is like eating fast food 3 times a day. At some point, the reader needs substance instead of endless sugars & bad fat. However, Bendis keeps on writing fast food stories with little real impact when the story itself is examined.

I'll keep buying West Coast Avengers & other Avengers back issues from the past to get good classic Avengers stories.

riotgear

11-22-2006, 10:11 AM

One of the biggest frustrations for me with decompressed storytelling is that, aside from telling a longer story, it takes 6-8 issues (that we get monthly, if we're lucky) to tell a story that takes place within a timeframe of sometimes 30 minutes. How much of Disassembled was one battle? And that took four issues to tell? If you're going to tell a story like that, it needs to be weekly, or just publish as a prestige format.

I know that is unrealistic, according to the editors, but with planning ahead, it could be a reality.

Shellhead

11-22-2006, 11:50 AM

Just wait for Might Avengers. It's much more 'Classic Feel' Avengers from what we've seen and heard.

Freudian slip? Let's call them the "Might-Be Avengers" until Bendis actually delivers a "Classic Feel" story or two. At this point, I'm expecting Carol and Simon talking head panels.

Red State Cap

11-22-2006, 08:00 PM

I believe that sooner or later will(or perhaps should) try to bridge the gap between New Avenger fans and the fans the Classic Avengers. My question to you out there is what would it take? Would you read Bendis decompression style of writing. If comic featured the character's of the classic Avengers? Would you read the characters of the new Avengers if they were writen by someone else. As for the New Avengers fan what from the old could you live with and enjoy?
What would it take for you? Where is the middle ground?
and before anyone says that there is nothing in common or nothing that the fans can agree on. I say Captain America
Bendis being off the books. Both of them. Nothing short of that will do.
Until that happens, I won't buy the Avengers.

RSC

Phrozen

11-22-2006, 10:09 PM

1) Bendis needs to go and needs to be contractually prevented from writing an Avengers book or anything to do with the Avengers.

2) Disassembled needs to retconed right quick.

Young Avenger

11-22-2006, 10:23 PM

Wait for Mighty Avengers or read Marvel Adventures Avengers and the Ultimates.

XPac

11-22-2006, 10:34 PM

Wait for Mighty Avengers or read Marvel Adventures Avengers and the Ultimates.

Well, I'm not exactly sure Ultimates gives you that classic Avengers feel either (though I do enjoy it).

Young Avenger

11-22-2006, 11:28 PM

Well, I'm not exactly sure Ultimates gives you that classic Avengers feel either (though I do enjoy it).

It has the classic roster. It's close enough.

o1pickleboy

11-23-2006, 06:25 PM

For me, I need some moderation acrossed the board. I would need to have the team with a few more classic members. Bendis to use less decompression and he would need a creative stop gap. I like some of Bendis ideas and they would have worked for me if he used some moderation.

On disassembled had he not killed Hawkeye and hinted at a real villain. I could have lived with it.(also he could have studied the character and some character history better.) On the start of New Avengers I liked what they had going at the start. The team was good(Spider Man, Luke Cage, Captain America, Spider Woman, and Iron Man) that starting point and them moving back towards the classic membership would have been great for me.( I am thinking Ms Marvel and Falcon.) I personally think the Sentry arc would have been ten times better if it would have ending with the Void being a New Avengers villian.

I kinda wonder if Bendis and Kurt Busiek were pair up as a creative team. What kinda comic would they make and if they wrote/scipted/plotted Avenger together would they make a happy middle ground that most fan would love.

The Shadow

11-23-2006, 06:40 PM

try to bridge the gap between New Avenger fans and the fans the Classic Avengers.
You make it sound like they are mutually exclusive.

I like em both and I've been an Avengers reader for almost 25 years now.

rwsmith

11-23-2006, 08:03 PM

I think most people were okay with the additions of Spider-man, Luke Cage and Jessica Drew, but for some reason Wolverine really bothered them.

In that case, I say keep most of the line-up the same, but replace Wolverine with Moon Knight. He's a badass and an unpredictable wild-card, and he will also kill if necessary. So there you go.

Make this the street-level Avengers counterpart to Mighty Avengers, and have Cap, Spidey, Cage, Spider-woman, Moon Knight, Ronin, Cloak and Dagger and you're all set.

EDIT---Though personally I love Wolverine as an Avenger, but if I had to lose him then I'd take MK in a heartbeat.

o1pickleboy

11-24-2006, 12:39 AM

You make it sound like they are mutually exclusive.

I like em both and I've been an Avengers reader for almost 25 years now.

I never intended it to sound that way, I was just trying to reach a compromise with the two fanbases. You are a true Avengers moderate and you are sitting in the greatest place right now. You love how it was before and how it is now. I am trying to find out what would get the most fans in the spot you are sitting right now.

The Shadow

11-24-2006, 01:02 AM

You are a true Avengers moderate and you are sitting in the greatest place right now. You love how it was before and how it is now. I am trying to find out what would get the most fans in the spot you are sitting right now.
I'll be honest with ya... I generally prefer the older stuff (because I read it so long perhaps) but rather than sit and bitch and moan and cry for 2 YEARS (like some here) I accept it, and either enjoy it or move on.

I don't see the point in blasting the same things over and over again. I wasn't thrilled at the idea at the beginning (I did loved the fact Spider Woman was back in costume) but rather than complain (and I don't read spoilers so I knew very little going in) I kept an open mind gave it a shot and was really surprised.

Now it's one of my favorite comics DESPITE being a HUGE classic Avengers fan.

I'm not even a huge Bendis mark... I think he's OK... but Brubaker, Slott, PAD, Busiek, Waid, Heinberg, JMS, Geoff Johns, Joss Whedon, Jeph Loeb and others are better with guys like Marc Guggenheim and Christos Gage are shooting up the list quickly!

Den

11-24-2006, 01:05 AM

Bendis is very hit or miss with me. I've liked some of the diologue (especially between Spider-Man and Cage) and some of the ideas were intriguing. However, the snail's pace that many of the stories move at, and the tendency to have others come in and do the Avengers work for them (Emma Frost for example) by Bendis leaves me often feeling a bit cheated. That said, New Avengers is selling well, and many love it, so kudos to him anyway on that point.

I DO wish though, that Mighty Avengers had a different writer just so more folks would have a choice. It might have been a better compromise between old and new.

Rahul

12-02-2006, 07:18 AM

Bendis pulled me into Avengers cause of New.(akong with Spidey and Wolverine). Never had interest in the old ones, beacuse I hadnt read a single Avengers story which was really really good(Yes, I'm going against the grain, and I'm saying the NA is the best ever. Go ahead, flame me).

So, I'm in for the MA, only cause of Bendis. Any other writer on the book, I'll have to wait for a very very good review.

EDIT:
But its not that I have any problem with Old School Avengers. I'll read one book like that, so long as its written really realy well, and is not filled with fanboy pleasing continuity trivia.

Deus ex Chris

12-02-2006, 07:56 AM

You make it sound like they are mutually exclusive.

I like em both and I've been an Avengers reader for almost 25 years now.
Exactly. I was a huge fan of the Busiek/Perez run, which had that classic feel through and through, but the fact is, that classic feel didn't put the Avengers at the top of market. Bendis, Spider-Man, and Wolverine did, and honestly, because of New Avengers, we're now getting a second Avengers title. This is the reality, and as long as Bendis is bringing so much success to the franchise, Marvel isn't going to pull him off of it, nor should they. It may mean that some old Avengers fan don't pick up the books, but that's ok because thousands more have replaced them, so to hell with the middle ground.

Thanos6

12-02-2006, 11:20 AM

Just because a book is selling better doesn't necessarily mean it is better.

Titanic is still the #1 earning movie of all time.
Citizen Kane barely made a dent when it was first released.

Titanic is not better than Citizen Kane.

Will.S

12-02-2006, 11:47 AM

Just because a book is selling better doesn't necessarily mean it is better.
I think we've all talked about this to the point of nausea.

Alan2099

12-02-2006, 11:58 AM

Magneto Rocks

12-02-2006, 12:43 PM

Bendis off at least one of the books.

A real Avengers team coming back will flow naturally after that.

Then we can begin the transition to normality and this will be remembered as a hideous, vague horrible miscalculation like "Heroes Reborn."

<sigh>

In my dreams...

Deus ex Chris

12-02-2006, 02:57 PM

XPac

12-02-2006, 03:33 PM

I'd say a good deal of this has to do with what Joe Q. likes rather than what the readers like. I've noticed that he tends to push the street level slow gritty stuff tons more than standard super hero stuff.

Well, if Joe likes it and the book is selling very very well, couldn't one argue that he's got a good feel on what the readers want and is sucessfully delivering it?

There's a disconnect if the editor likes something that no one is buying. But when he see the editor and the purchasers all on the same page, then one has to really wonder whether there is anything broken that is worth bothering to fix.

The Shadow

12-03-2006, 12:45 PM

A real Avengers team coming back will flow naturally after that.

There is no such thing as a "real" Avengers team... the Avengers are whatever Marvel gives us. Anything else is something in the fans' mind as to what THEY THINK a "real" Avengers team is.

DMike

12-04-2006, 01:09 AM

There is no such thing as a "real" Avengers team... the Avengers are whatever Marvel gives us. Anything else is something in the fans' mind as to what THEY THINK a "real" Avengers team is.

Agreed. I might not like New Avengers (nothing wrong with it or Bendis, it just didn't catch my interest), but even I recognize that they are just as much the real Avengers as Cap's Kooky Quartet were following the original Avengers breakup in issue 16 or Gyrich's overhaul of the team in issue 181. Just because Disassembled sucked doesn't make the team calling themselves the Avengers any less legitimate than they were before Bendis.