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View Full Version : 5D Imps VS Lucifer, Michael and the Endless



T51R
11-19-2006, 11:56 PM
All-out WAR.:eek: Entire 5th Dimension of DC delares war on the Hosts of Heaven in its parent multiverse. Last man standing wins it for their side. Who survives?:eek:

Nik Hasta
11-20-2006, 02:34 AM
Not reality that's for damn certain, all human life and frankly any other form of life is wiped out and turned into waffles.

5D Imps have major numbers advantage which I think gives them the win.


Are we giving Lucifer prep time?

Lord of Denial
11-20-2006, 06:47 AM
Well Lucifer and Micheal are at a powerlevel where they can create mutiverses under their own power. They are second to only The Presence so I think they are several levels above the 5D imps.

Gorthaur
11-20-2006, 08:16 AM
From all indications, the modern 5D-Imps seem to be a tier above the Presence and his creation. They're pretty much metatextual gimmicks that represent the reader.

da noble savage
11-20-2006, 08:48 AM
From all indications, the modern 5D-Imps seem to be a tier above the Presence and his creation. They're pretty much metatextual gimmicks that represent the reader.

ur jokeing right they have done nothing in cannon to make them above the pressence. hell they done nothing in cannon to make themselfs above luifer or micheal.

Gorthaur
11-20-2006, 08:55 AM
No, I'm not "jokeing." Even Emperor Joker, still somewhat below a true 5D-Imp in power, had no problem whatsoever unraveling the Presence's entire creation. The Demon Satanus even explained that he had direct control over, basically, the fabric of the Dreaming that empowers the various gods - including Yahweh - in the first place.

da noble savage
11-20-2006, 09:25 AM
No, I'm not "jokeing." Even Emperor Joker, still somewhat below a true 5D-Imp in power, had no problem whatsoever unraveling the Presence's entire creation. The Demon Satanus even explained that he had direct control over, basically, the fabric of the Dreaming that empowers the various gods - including Yahweh - in the first place.

when did he state this and since when is the dreaming mentioned outside of vertigo.

Gorthaur
11-20-2006, 10:12 AM
when did he state this and since when is the dreaming mentioned outside of vertigo.Satanus describes the consept of consensus reality in The Adventures of Superman #583 - Reign of Emperor Joker, Part Two: Life is But a (Very Bad) Dream:

"A quantum dream... each of us floating in a bubble that contains out personal universes-- --our individual illusions and fancies! All these little universes intersecting... but no one dream in control."

Which is how reality is defined in the DC Universe, as explained in Sandman (and the reason for Dream holding such a high relative rank among the Endless). Belief and dreams shape the world quite literally. Gods are something of a byproduct of this concept: beings that are formed in the collective human subconscious (the Dreaming, more or less) and are given power and form by their faith. The Presence, or Yahweh, is no exception to this rule, as shown in Lucifer.

Now, he then goes on to explain how the Joker, using Mxy's power, has superimposed his personal universe over everyone elses, effectively remaking the consensus reality in his own image. IOW, he had direct command over the very thing that gods draw their strength from.

lionking
11-20-2006, 01:08 PM
how did specter take away Mxy's power. can any one explain

Altraferne
11-20-2006, 01:34 PM
Mxy was depowered in Day of Vengeance. How can he be above the Presence if his power is directly related to the magic of this universe?

Gorthaur
11-20-2006, 01:49 PM
Inconsistent portrayals?

In "Reign of Emperor Joker" and definitely in Grant Morrison's "Crisis Times Five," the Imps are portrayed as being entirely above and beyond Creation.

Altraferne
11-20-2006, 02:09 PM
Inconsistent portrayals?

That could just as easily apply to them being depicted above The Presence.

I mean, haven't they usually been shown below that level most of the time?

Also, wouldn't the Fifth Dimension all fall within the boundries of creation? It is a physical place that exists, albeit parallel to the primary universe, but there are many other universes conected to the main DC universe. The 5th Dimension is obviously a much higher level os existence, but by virtue of it being an existence, doesn't that make it part of The Presence's multiverse?

Pendaran
11-20-2006, 02:48 PM
I'd find it off that considering the various creatures of the 5th dimension not Imps that both Doctor Fate and the Spectre have whupped on, even in their home territory, that we're deciding to go with the one portrayal that goes otherwise as far as "the 5th dimension uber alles", that after all this talk about how it shows them above the dreaming and whatever, comes down to a line from Lord Satanus.


Which is how reality is defined in the DC Universe, as explained in Sandman (and the reason for Dream holding such a high relative rank among the Endless). Belief and dreams shape the world quite literally. Gods are something of a byproduct of this concept: beings that are formed in the collective human subconscious (the Dreaming, more or less) and are given power and form by their faith. The Presence, or Yahweh, is no exception to this rule, as shown in Lucifer.

I find it off that you mention Lucifer and Vertigo generally for proof of anything in terms of the metaphysical makeup of the DCU, which at times glaringly contradicts how the rest of the DC universe currently operates, especially things like the existance of Heaven and Hell and the status of the Spectre, where the best someone could tell me the last time I asked this was "well, just because Elaine Belloc hasn't been shown in the DCU proper, doesn't mean she isn't there and hasn't removed Heaven and Hell, even though we've seen both Heaven and Hell since".

It seems completely selective. And ignoring of that for quite some time, the DCU has been rather notably divorced from Vertigo style metaphysical implication. And it's certainly never worked with things like the Lords of Chaos and Order, who don't even vaguely come off like the ones from, say, the books of Magic. And a long laundary list of things besides. I mean hell, Zauriel's showing up in comics again, so maybe that will be your big chance to have it shown that the Presence no longer inhabits Creation and he answers to Elaine. But I'm kinda doubting it.

It seems to me that when it's come down to it, the more routine portrayal of the 5th dimension and its inhabitants has not been Emperor Joker/Crisis Times Five style. Which is to say, powerful, but not beyond every single thing around them.

Gorthaur
11-20-2006, 03:14 PM
That could just as easily apply to them being depicted above The Presence.Sure enough. But then, I'm under the impression that we go by high-end showings, here.

I mean, haven't they usually been shown below that level most of the time?
Beats me. I did specify "modern," though.

Also, wouldn't the Fifth Dimension all fall within the boundries of creation?Not if the Presence didn't create it, obviously. To quote Zauriel from "Crisis Times Five, Part One":

"You're asking me to rescue the Wrath of God and challenge a force from outside Creation?"

It seems pretty clear that, according to Grant Morrison, anyway, the 5D-Imps are at least partially meant to represent us - they're so powerful in the "flat, three dimensional world" because to them, it's exactly as real as it is to us: even the Presence is omnipotent only on their equivalent of the pages of a comic book.

Pendaran
11-20-2006, 03:30 PM
And much like Marvel and his take on X-men, DC comics seems to have since seen fit to ignore what he tried to do.

Beyond that, there've been comics that show the Imps decidedly /not/ representing us, and only doing things like, say, fourth wall breaking on an involuntary basis that has nothing to do with their own abilities and they've just died.


Beats me. I did specify "modern," though.

Day of Vengeance isn't modern?


Sure enough. But then, I'm under the impression that we go by high-end showings, here.

I was under the impression we didn't if they contradict basically the way most other comics have worked. You know, how we actually have a specific board term for it. Something about Spiderman and Heralds of Galactus..

Frankly, if we can pull in whatever we like, no matter from what and how contradictory, Myx gets killed by the Phantom Zone projector in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, though admittedly as canonical as "World's Funniest" and Gog flat out /killed/ Myx in the Kingdom when he killed one of the future Supermen, which wasn't even shown at the time as an Elseworld, but held up as being part of main DC continuity, and introducing Hypertime. I know, I know, they don't use hypertime anymore, but then, they don't really use Vertigo metaphysics either.

da noble savage
11-20-2006, 03:48 PM
And much like Marvel and his take on X-men, DC comics seems to have since seen fit to ignore what he tried to do.

Beyond that, there've been comics that show the Imps decidedly /not/ representing us, and only doing things like, say, fourth wall breaking on an involuntary basis that has nothing to do with their own abilities and they've just died.



Day of Vengeance isn't modern?



I was under the impression we didn't if they contradict basically the way most other comics have worked. You know, how we actually have a specific board term for it. Something about Spiderman and Heralds of Galactus..

Frankly, if we can pull in whatever we like, no matter from what and how contradictory, Myx gets killed by the Phantom Zone projector in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, though admittedly as canonical as "World's Funniest" and Gog flat out /killed/ Myx in the Kingdom when he killed one of the future Supermen, which wasn't even shown at the time as an Elseworld, but held up as being part of main DC continuity, and introducing Hypertime. I know, I know, they don't use hypertime anymore, but then, they don't really use Vertigo metaphysics either.

actally hypertime was just menctioned in 52. So it seems it's still cannon.

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 11:05 AM
Satanus describes the consept of consensus reality in The Adventures of Superman #583 - Reign of Emperor Joker, Part Two: Life is But a (Very Bad) Dream:

"A quantum dream... each of us floating in a bubble that contains out personal universes-- --our individual illusions and fancies! All these little universes intersecting... but no one dream in control."

Which is how reality is defined in the DC Universe, as explained in Sandman (and the reason for Dream holding such a high relative rank among the Endless). Belief and dreams shape the world quite literally. Gods are something of a byproduct of this concept: beings that are formed in the collective human subconscious (the Dreaming, more or less) and are given power and form by their faith. The Presence, or Yahweh, is no exception to this rule, as shown in Lucifer.

Now, he then goes on to explain how the Joker, using Mxy's power, has superimposed his personal universe over everyone elses, effectively remaking the consensus reality in his own image. IOW, he had direct command over the very thing that gods draw their strength from.
You're forgetting that the whole reason Satanus was able to explain that was because *he himself* was not effected by the Joker's reality change the same way most of the rest of the universe was. He's a part of the dominant pantheon (and a relatively low ranking one compared to Lucifer and Michael), which is not so easy to overthrow even if you do control the Dreaming. That's why Dream described Lucifer as being more powerful than him.

OverMaster
02-10-2007, 11:20 AM
And much like Marvel and his take on X-men, DC comics seems to have since seen fit to ignore what he tried to do.

Beyond that, there've been comics that show the Imps decidedly /not/ representing us, and only doing things like, say, fourth wall breaking on an involuntary basis that has nothing to do with their own abilities and they've just died.



Day of Vengeance isn't modern?



I was under the impression we didn't if they contradict basically the way most other comics have worked. You know, how we actually have a specific board term for it. Something about Spiderman and Heralds of Galactus..

Frankly, if we can pull in whatever we like, no matter from what and how contradictory, Myx gets killed by the Phantom Zone projector in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, though admittedly as canonical as "World's Funniest" and Gog flat out /killed/ Myx in the Kingdom when he killed one of the future Supermen, which wasn't even shown at the time as an Elseworld, but held up as being part of main DC continuity, and introducing Hypertime. I know, I know, they don't use hypertime anymore, but then, they don't really use Vertigo metaphysics either.

Day of Vengeance and all Infinite Crisis tie-ins were full of absurd, Hama-able crap. Do we need to bring the Superboy Prime inconsistences, the massive amounts of PIS rampant everywhere, the inconsistent characterizations, the plot gimmies given to key characters just to advance the plot, again? Just for that, I'm all willing to brush the Depowering 5D Imps trash away with the rest of the nonsense. An event like that should not have had any effect on beings who come from out of Creation.

And the only time Mxy ever died in modern DCU canon was when he resigned his powers (all of them) and was killed by one of his own creations (which only vanished after he died, not when he depowered himself). It's worth noting that before that, Mxy didn't even know what death was. And at the end of the issue, he returned to life anyway, with his powers back.

Gorthaur
02-10-2007, 11:38 AM
Not to mention that "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" was, even in the Pre-Crisis DCU, and imaginary story.

And I'd also be curious to know where, if we're choosing to ignore Vertigo now, do we draw the line? The Sandman and its spin-offs (Lucifer included, obviously)? But the Sandman, besides featuring long-standing DC characters in itself, is pretty much a direct continuation of The Swamp Thing, both in terms of thematic and in-story continuity (Matthew Cable, anyone?). And Swampy was most definitely a part of mainstream DCU with all its Justice League/Superman/Batman/etc. cameos and Crisis tie-ins, not to mention predating the entire Vertigo imprint in the first place.

Rhetorical question, of course, what with Pendaran being on my ignore list and all, but the point still stands.

Gorthaur
02-10-2007, 11:44 AM
You're forgetting that the whole reason Satanus was able to explain that was because *he himself* was not effected by the Joker's reality change the same way most of the rest of the universe was. He's a part of the dominant pantheon (and a relatively low ranking one compared to Lucifer and Michael), which is not so easy to overthrow even if you do control the Dreaming. That's why Dream described Lucifer as being more powerful than him.He didn't say anything about the dominant Pantheon, just that he, I suppose as some sor of a low-rank conceptual being, exists in all the little bubble-verses. Of course, that doesn't mean he wasn't still going to bite the dust later, when the Joker decided to just destroy everything.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Day of Vengeance and all Infinite Crisis tie-ins were full of absurd, Hama-able crap. Do we need to bring the Superboy Prime inconsistences, the massive amounts of PIS rampant everywhere, the inconsistent characterizations, the plot gimmies given to key characters just to advance the plot, again? Just for that, I'm all willing to brush the Depowering 5D Imps trash away with the rest of the nonsense. An event like that should not have had any effect on beings who come from out of Creation.


And Emperor Joker has all of Lord Satanus not being reality warped, so basically, even for the things that sort of make this case look good, you're picking and choosing as much as you possibly can.

It fails to change that the one place where Myx is shown as completely above everything? An elseworld? That otherwise his fourth wall breaking in particular instance had /nothing/ to do with his own power.


And I'd also be curious to know where, if we're choosing to ignore Vertigo now, do we draw the line? The Sandman and its spin-offs (Lucifer included, obviously)? But the Sandman, besides featuring long-standing DC characters in itself, is pretty much a direct continuation of The Swamp Thing, both in terms of thematic and in-story continuity (Matthew Cable, anyone?). And Swampy was most definitely a part of mainstream DCU with all its Justice League/Superman/Batman/etc. cameos and Crisis tie-ins, not to mention predating the entire Vertigo imprint in the first place.

One imagines we draw the line at using things the main DCU has not simply repeatedly shown they don't use, but actively and repeatedly ignore and dismiss. Or: Did Elaine Belloc show up as the Presence yet in the DCU?

I wonder how the use of Swamp Thing justifies a continued insistance that the DCU uses things it specifically, you know, otherwise ignores and treats as inapplicable.

The underlying reality of said multiverse has itself been completely rewritten on several ocassions, so I live in wonder for what basis you have to go "just because the main DCU ignores almost everything that goes on in Vertigo, to the point where you'd think for instance, something as major as /Elaine Belloc removing Heaven and Hell/ would have been acknowledged, and not instead treated as though it never happened, this one thing that was mentioned years and years ago, in a DCU that no longer even has the same underlying reality, still applies, because I say so".





Rhetorical question, of course, what with Pendaran being on my ignore list and all, but the point still stands.

Yes, I get it, you have some 5D imp, things work like they do in vertigo obsession with the DCU you've mentioned across numerous threads unceasingly.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 02:01 PM
As a note, to me, this seems exactly like the problem with Mephisto. People read a couple of things with a character in them, and they decide that's basically the definition of that character, regardless of, for example, things that have come before it, or after it.

The fifth dimension for example, used to be a place that the Spectre and Doctor Fate could travel to and /completely beat the crap/ out of various beings they found there. That happened across decades of comics.

The Spectre himself has since gone on to completely maul 5D genies and the like.

But, because Grant Morisson gets a wacky idea, and out of one crossover where apparently someone pretty low on the godbeing totem pole of reality himself does not get reality warped, said crossover using a cosmological basis that DC comics itself, not so much with the drawing on anymore, and seems completely contradictory to what came before and after the use of it.. no, no, the 5D imps are now not simply vastly powerful beings, why, they're completely above the Presence. And all the comics that came before and since, just don't count. Especially the ones that came before that suggest that portraying the fifth dimension as "beyond God" wildly contradicts what things like, say, the Wrath of God were able to do when they went there. Almost as though Grant was basically ignoring DCU continuity to make up whatever the hell he wanted. Surely he's never done /that/ before at any other company, then have his work largely disregarded by the comics that come afterward..

Thusly, all the comics that came before and after that would suggest things like, for instance, various types of fifth dimensional beings are inferior to say, the Spectre, is completely wrong. Though I wonder in amazement at what shame there is in being inferior to /the Spectre/. Because really, the being that was at ground zero of the big bang and lived, he's a punk.

Or, the Spectre was long ago able to travel to the fifth dimension, encounter things that live there, and beat them up. Long before the comics being cited as /defining/ came up. Why suddenly was that now beyond him? Why suddenly is the use of a cosmology that the DCU demonstrates /no longer using or even caring about/ a justification for why that's so?

Or, aside from that it has a basis in all of a line from Lord Satanus, who himself was saying such /while not being affected by it/, I'm happy to acknowledge the perfect synchronicity between DC and Vertigo metaphysics, despite so much in DC before and since /vastly contradicting it/ if someone could, say, show me where the no more Heaven and Hell and Elaine Belloc stuff was put into play in the DCU, despite there still being, you know, Heaven, Hell, and the like, and working the way they have in, say, the DCU, and not Vertigo (hey, Ralph Dibny just went on a magical mystery tour of the infernal at that, it seemed suprisingly full of suffering people).


Just for that, I'm all willing to brush the Depowering 5D Imps trash away with the rest of the nonsense. An event like that should not have had any effect on beings who come from out of Creation.

Sooo.. the comics where the Spectre and Doctor Fate went to the fifth dimension and beat up things that lived there.. also never happened, despite happening before the baseless "powering up" of the fifth dimension? Hey, Imps, they're the highest on the 5D food chain. And certainly cosmic god powerful. But more than the Presence? The Spectre? Really? That's basically saying two instances that contradicted the place of said dimension as it came before, are valid, despite so contradicting, and all the comics that came after, that were more consistent with how things had been previously shown, are not.

Interesting.

Or, quite bluntly, there've been various other comics that have explained the metaphysical underpinnings of the DCU. Some of them have come out, /after/ Emperor Joker. And yet, Emperor Joker is the one we should clearly use, and all the other ones not. Apparently.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade
02-10-2007, 02:32 PM
I'm going to throw in with Pendaran here.



I find the lack of soud/concrete evidence stating *AND* showing the Imps being above the Presence, Spectre, Michael or Lucifer, to be quite glaring.



Show me a scan/solid evidence of an Imp outright over powering one of the above four at their best, in some way, or I can't believe they are higher on the totem pole.

Altraferne
02-10-2007, 02:42 PM
I'm going to throw in with Pendaran here.



I find the lack of soud/concrete evidence stating *AND* showing the Imps being above the Presence, Spectre, Michael or Lucifer, to be quite glaring.



Show me a scan/solid evidence of an Imp outright over powering one of the above four at their best, in some way, or I can't believe they are higher on the totem pole.

It has also been my understanding that the 5D Imps are as high as it gets UNTIL the Presence and his subordinates come into play.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade
02-10-2007, 02:44 PM
It has also been my understanding that the 5D Imps are as high as it gets UNTIL the Presence and his subordinates come into play.



My impression aswell, actually.

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 04:19 PM
He didn't say anything about the dominant Pantheon, just that he, I suppose as some sor of a low-rank conceptual being, exists in all the little bubble-verses. Of course, that doesn't mean he wasn't still going to bite the dust later, when the Joker decided to just destroy everything.
IIRC he's only supposed to be a high ranking demon like Neron or Azazel. If he exists in all the bubble-verses it seems to me that Lucifer who's far above him would as well.

Anyway as far as the Spectre goes the version that Emperor Joker beat was the Hal Jordan version who at the time was still new to his powers and hadn't fully realized them yet...

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 04:30 PM
Anyway as far as the Spectre goes the version that Emperor Joker beat was the Hal Jordan version who at the time was still new to his powers and hadn't fully realized them yet...

... this gets less impressive every time new details come out.

So, we have.. a sentence or two from Lord Satanus as having more weight for the cosmological underpinnings of the DCU than any other showing of how it works ever, neverminding the lack of things like the Presence being Elaine Belloc and Heaven and Hell somehow still existing, we have Lord Satanus himself not getting reality warped, and we have the Spectre defeat coming of the Hal Jordan version.

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 04:49 PM
neverminding the lack of things like the Presence being Elaine Belloc
I'm sure that I've seen a scan on this board that had the Spectre showing up to question Lucifer because the Presence was missing (this was before Elaine assumed the role in the original's place).

Gorthaur
02-10-2007, 04:56 PM
Or The Sandman making an appearance in JLA, or an idol of Dream as L'zoril that J'Onn worships being shown, etc.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 05:03 PM
I'm sure that I've seen a scan on this board that had the Spectre showing up to question Lucifer because the Presence was missing (this was before Elaine assumed the role in the original's place).

And I'm sure I've seen scans of DCU Hell chock full of demons. What you're referring to is a scan of the Spectre chatting up Lucifer on the beach. By the way, that series of the Spectre? Posited a completely different origin and set of higher powers for the DCU, involving beings like the Logoz. But you won't hear Gorthaur mention that, it would fly in the face of his efforts to continue to demand that a few lines from Lord Satanus establishes the metaphysical underpinnings of the DCU.

So again, why does Hell still exist in the DCU? Using characters from Vertigo years ago, does not somehow give it Vertigo's metaphysical underpinnings.

Or again, why does the afterlife not work the way Elaine Belloc made it work in Lucifer?

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 05:06 PM
And I'm sure I've seen scans of DCU Hell chock full of demons. What you're referring to is a scan of the Spectre chatting up Lucifer on the beach.
That's the one! What comic did that scene take place in?

So again, why does Hell still exist in the DCU?
*shrugs* Dunno, I wasn't aware Elaine had gotten rid of it. Aren't there supposed to be multiple Hells outside of the main one though?

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 05:07 PM
*shrugs* Dunno, I wasn't aware Elaine had gotten rid of it. Aren't there supposed to be multiple Hells though?

Elaine completely redefined the afterlife and many other things at the end of Lucifer. Strangely, none of this, nor Elaine herself, have particularly showed up, in the DCU.

Hell, the Spectre has met the Archangel Michael, but wait no! Michael's actually been a prisoner of Sandalphon for thousands and thousands of years..

Using characters from Vertigo, does not give the DCU Vertigo's continuity, especially when there is so much glaring and blatant dissonance with even trying to do so. When DCU continuity has sharply broken with that of Vertigo and has for years and years now.

The two began to go their separate ways when Vertigo became a separate company, and that separation became more and more prominent over the years, to the point it has reached now, where attempting to apply the metaphysics of the Vertigo settings that share a world amongst each other to the DCU basically results in contradictory nonsense, considering what little regular heed the mainstream DCU pays them.

Or: Dream showing up in JSA doesn't mean much beyond that Dream showed up in JSA.

Or: If everything works like it does in Vertigo, I'm direly waiting for an explination of DCU Heaven and Hell that's not pure fanwankery. Or why the Spectre even still exists and has the job he does.

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 05:21 PM
Elaine completely redefined the afterlife and many other things at the end of Lucifer. Strangely, none of this, nor Elaine herself, have particularly showed up, in the DCU.
*shrugs again* Like you say there are all kinds of contradictory things about DCU cosmology depending on who's writing it, so I'm not going to argue that everything that happens in Vertigo is hard canon. But it's not neccesary for everything to have happened the way it did in Lucifer for Elaine to be the new God, the Presence did apparently vanish for a while only to reappear in time to reign the Spectre in after Day of Vengence.

Gorthaur
02-10-2007, 05:26 PM
Well, it certainly can be hard to sort through all the various inconsistencies that inevitably pop up in a shared universe that's written, essentially, as a committee effort.

We sure are lucky to have the final arbiter of canonicity right here in our very midst.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 05:27 PM
*shrugs again* Like you say there are all kinds of contradictory things about DCU cosmology depending on who's writing it, so I'm not going to argue that everything that happens in Vertigo is hard canon.

Well, sadly, Gorthaur's exact arguement is that everything that happens in Vertigo is not simply hard canon, but explicit proof for things like his bizarre claims about the beyond the Presence status of the 5D imps.


But it's not neccesary for everything to have happened the way it did in Lucifer for Elaine to be the new God, the Presence did apparently vanish for a while only to reappear in time to reign the Spectre in after Day of Vengence.

Appear as.. Elaine Belloc? No? Because around that time, she was still manifesting to people as Elaine Belloc.

And if /nothing/ Elaine did on a /vast cosmological scale/ has actually happened in the DCU, which it hasn't, and God has yet to be referred to her by anyone, and the Spectre himself has met Michael..

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 05:28 PM
Well, it certainly can be hard to sort through all the various inconsistencies that inevitably pop up in a shared universe that's written, essentially, as a committee effort.

We sure are lucky to have the final arbiter of canonicity right here in our very midst.

You're the one that claims Dream of a Thousand Cats and vague statements referring back to it as explicit and unquestionable proof for things like the status of 5D imps and how the DCU works, so that statement alone trucks in some impressive hypocrisy.

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 05:33 PM
Well, sadly, Gorthaur's exact arguement is that everything that happens in Vertigo is not simply hard canon, but explicit proof for things like his bizarre claims about the beyond the Presence status of the 5D imps.
Well like I've said that's not what I'm argueing, only that it's still possible for Elaine to exist in the main DCU even if most of Vertigo isn't canon. If Dream and Lucifer can do it why not her?

Appear as.. Elaine Belloc? No? Because around that time, she was still manifesting to people as Elaine Belloc.
We didn't actually see who did it at all though, only the Spectre pleading with someone then being stuffed in a human body.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 05:37 PM
Well like I've said that's not what I'm argueing, only that it's still possible for Elaine to exist in the main DCU even if most of Vertigo isn't canon. If Dream can do it why not her?

Dream at least has showed up on panel. Elaine reshaped Heaven, Hell and the basic underpinnings of the afterlife, and that hasn't so much happened with even a hint in the DCU. At one point reality was literally falling apart, and yet, when that was going on, it didn't effect the DCU remotely. Nothing she's done has occured there, she herself has yet to appear or even be named. Indeed, the current state of the DCU flat out contradicts the various actions she has taken.


We didn't actually see who did it at all though, only the Spectre pleading with someone then being stuffed in a human body.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence? Seriously? That's the best you can do? I've got, and what no one has yet to have an answer for "nothing Elaine has done in Vertigo has happened in the DCU. Remotely. Despite the sheer scale on which she did it."

The response is apparently "well, she could still be there anyway."

The Real Nemo
02-10-2007, 05:45 PM
Dream at least has showed up on panel. Elaine reshaped Heaven, Hell and the basic underpinnings of the afterlife, and that hasn't so much happened with even a hint in the DCU. At one point reality was literally falling apart, and yet, when that was going on, it didn't effect the DCU remotely. Nothing she's done has occured there, she herself has yet to appear or even be named. Indeed, the current state of the DCU flat out contradicts the various actions she has taken.



The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence? Seriously? That's the best you can do? I've got, and what no one has yet to have an answer for "nothing Elaine has done in Vertigo has happened in the DCU. Remotely. Despite the sheer scale on which she did it."

The response is apparently "well, she could still be there anyway."
I don't have any real proof that it was her no, and like I said even if it is her that doesn't mean that everything she did in Lucifer is canon for the DCU. Ultimately I guess it doesn't matter much now that Lucifer's over since God is still God and will continue being God no matter which one it is, but since Lucifer himself's been shown in the DCU and the Spectre acknowledged that the Presence was gone I do think there's a good chance she's the current one.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 06:00 PM
but since Lucifer himself's been shown in the DCU and the Spectre acknowledged that the Presence was gone I do think there's a good chance she's the current one.

That really doesn't fly with that nothing she's done to literally reshape the way the cosmos works having happened to even the slightest degree in this DCU she would supposedly be the Presence of. It's not like saying some minor thing didn't happen. It's like saying the major defining thing she did as Elaine Belloc, the Presence, did not happen. Which, in the DCU, it didn't.

That Spectre series also purported the existance of divine overbeings who do not have a remote scrap of hint of existance back over in Vertigo, so I really think it's more that Lucifer was used for a plot with the Spectre comic itself.

All of that, stacked further with interviews from various DC people about how they want to use this "tenth age of magic" thing to create their own system for the supernatural in the DCU, divorced from that of Vertigo, that they hired people like Michael Moorcock to specifically help them to do so..

But hell, the Zauriel issue of the Helmet of Fate thing is coming out shortly, maybe she'll be in it, refer to everything she's done, Heaven and Hell won't exist, and I'll be totally wrong.

Guts/Batman
02-10-2007, 06:33 PM
Mxy was depowered in Day of Vengeance.

Mxy was in DoV?

Gorthaur
02-10-2007, 06:36 PM
Funny how we don't throw the entire concept of continuity out of the window every time the events of two different books contradict each other, though. Especially if, as it seems, this isn't even a case of contradiction as much as lack of explicit acknowledgment - which, I suspect, would never be quite explicit enough for some, anyhow.

Guts/Batman
02-10-2007, 06:41 PM
*shrugs* Dunno, I wasn't aware Elaine had gotten rid of it. Aren't there supposed to be multiple Hells outside of the main one though?

Lucifer closed Hell in the last issue of Lucifer. Kicked everyone out. Locked it down. There's no one there.

Dunno if that is the main Hell though.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 06:50 PM
Lucifer closed Hell in the last issue of Lucifer. Kicked everyone out. Locked it down. There's no one there.

Dunno if that is the main Hell though.

No, he did that in Sandman. In Lucifer, Elaine made the concept irrelevant.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 06:52 PM
Funny how we don't throw the entire concept of continuity out of the window every time the events of two different books contradict each other, though. Especially if, as it seems, this isn't even a case of contradiction as much as lack of explicit acknowledgment - which, I suspect, would never be quite explicit enough for some, anyhow.

"A lack of explicit acknowledgement" is an interesting way of referring to Elaine's metaphysical reordering of the afterlife, heaven and hell being completely nonexistant in the DCU. And even beyond nonexistant to outright and full out contradicted.

By interesting, I mean, completely innaccurate.

It's kind of funny for the cosmology of the DCU afterlife /working completely differently in every way/ to be something you can straightfacedly refer to as "not a case of contradiction".

Guts/Batman
02-10-2007, 06:53 PM
No, he did that in Sandman. In Lucifer, Elaine made the concept irrelevant.

Ah hah! That's what was happening.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 06:55 PM
Ah hah! That's what was happening.

Well, not in the actual DCU, but yes, that's what was happening.

Guts/Batman
02-10-2007, 06:57 PM
Well, not in the actual DCU, but yes, that's what was happening.

That I knew. I don't even try to connect what happens in Vertigo with what happens in DCU. It's just an exercise in futility, a vast majority of the time.

Pendaran
02-10-2007, 06:58 PM
That I knew. I don't even try to connect what happens in Vertigo with what happens in DCU. It's just an exercise in futility, a vast majority of the time.

You'd think that would be an easy enough thing to grasp honestly. Especially when they're currently going to far as to hire people specifically to redefine and separate the magical world of the DCU from what has gone before.

JCAll
02-11-2007, 12:11 AM
Rather than arguing the canon of Vertigo and the DCU, which I'm not informed enough to do, I'll go off in a different direction.

A question. Since all of the really good showings and really bad showings for 5D Imps seem to come from Mr. Mxyzptlk, is it possible that he, specifically, is just really powerful, really stupid, or both?

Gorthaur
02-11-2007, 03:42 AM
Mxy is exceptionally stupid, but I doubt he's exceptionally powerful.

OverMaster
02-11-2007, 04:58 AM
... this gets less impressive every time new details come out.

So, we have.. a sentence or two from Lord Satanus as having more weight for the cosmological underpinnings of the DCU than any other showing of how it works ever, neverminding the lack of things like the Presence being Elaine Belloc and Heaven and Hell somehow still existing, we have Lord Satanus himself not getting reality warped, and we have the Spectre defeat coming of the Hal Jordan version.

No, Emperor Joker and Five Time Crisis happened AFTER Jim Corrigan's separation from the Spectre, and BEFORE Hal Jordan's take on the role. Get your facts straight here. What the Imps owned in those ocassions was a hostless Spectre, one which was much more agressive and harsh due to lack of a human host (check Alan Scott's comments in Five Time Crisis).

Also, it's funny how you take in consideration Lord Satanus not being warped, and yet not how Satanus, or any other of the DCU higher spheres, if they were so above EJ, not simply stomping him to take a dangerous annoyance out of the way.

OverMaster
02-11-2007, 05:01 AM
Rather than arguing the canon of Vertigo and the DCU, which I'm not informed enough to do, I'll go off in a different direction.

A question. Since all of the really good showings and really bad showings for 5D Imps seem to come from Mr. Mxyzptlk, is it possible that he, specifically, is just really powerful, really stupid, or both?

Yeah, he seems to be both. He looks to be amazingly shortcoming in the brains department.

EDIT: Although technically, you can also make one of the top Imp feats to be a Qwsp job.

Knightosis
02-11-2007, 09:23 AM
As a note, to me, this seems exactly like the problem with Mephisto. People read a couple of things with a character in them, and they decide that's basically the definition of that character, regardless of, for example, things that have come before it, or after it.

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me princess. :-/

The Real Nemo
02-11-2007, 09:43 AM
No, Emperor Joker and Five Time Crisis happened AFTER Jim Corrigan's separation from the Spectre, and BEFORE Hal Jordan's take on the role.
Um, Hal Jordan assumed the role in the end of Day of Judgement right? Then it must have been him, because Emperor Joker happened after Day of Judgement. Besides the one who showed up in that had the same "look" as the Hal version.

Pendaran
02-11-2007, 01:06 PM
No, Emperor Joker and Five Time Crisis happened AFTER Jim Corrigan's separation from the Spectre, and BEFORE Hal Jordan's take on the role. Get your facts straight here. What the Imps owned in those ocassions was a hostless Spectre, one which was much more agressive and harsh due to lack of a human host (check Alan Scott's comments in Five Time Crisis).


I like the "get your facts straight" comment when you've yet to remotely explain how these two incidents don't completely fly in the face of how the Spectre previously used to interact with the fifth dimension and the denizens thereof, and since afterwards. As though both were basically a blip in the face of years and years of comics.

Your explination for that the Spectre used to be able to travel to the fifth dimension without fear and wail on what he found there is what? Similarly for Doctor Fate and his wins over various 5D beings, in said dimension itself. Kent never mentioning any crap like being afraid to go to where things beyond the power of God hold sway. The Spectre similarly failing to make any such mention.

The Spectre has wins over Imps since Crisis times five and the like, wins over 5D genies, and wins over 5D beings previous to those incidents. So your explination then for the two things you cling to as gospel not being the wild exception, that actually ignored past continuity, is what? Considering that there's nothing to indicate "well, some Imps and Genies are /way/ stronger than other Imps and Genies" it really seems more like two particular incidents basically ignoring what the Spectre's more consistent place has been in comics.

Guts/Batman
02-11-2007, 04:33 PM
Spectre's ownage of Thunderbolt, I think that's the name of the 5D genie, was quite entertaining.

"Get in the pen, bitch!"

Pendaran
02-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Which occured in JSA, as far as it goes.

Guts/Batman
02-11-2007, 04:36 PM
Yep. In the Day of Vengeance tie in story, Black Vengeance. One of the few viable ways, the only viable way to get Black Adam involved in The Spectre's idiotic war on magic and clear a few plot points in JSA...

The Watcher
02-11-2007, 06:05 PM
Having reviewed the contents of the thread and evidence presented, I would say if there seems to be a massive and consistent discrepancy between a fundemental aspect of the setting such as the existence of Heaven and Hell or the metaphsyics of the universe in one line and another, then continuity and cosmological statements in one line can not be said to be binding or applicable to another.

As far as 5-D Imp showings go, if the majority of their portrayals have shown them to be less powerful than the Spectre or the Presence, then the one or two portayals contrary to that should be considered aberrations in the Spiderman vs Firelord vein.

OverMaster
02-12-2007, 03:52 AM
I must eat a bit of crow now. I re-checked, and even though Five Times Crisis did happen with a hostless Spectre, Emperor Joker did indeed happen after Hal Jordan's apprisal of the role. Boy, my face is red. Sorry.

OverMaster
02-12-2007, 03:54 AM
Having reviewed the contents of the thread and evidence presented, I would say if there seems to be a massive and consistent discrepancy between a fundemental aspect of the setting such as the existence of Heaven and Hell or the metaphsyics of the universe in one line and another, then continuity and cosmological statements in one line can not be said to be binding or applicable to another.

As far as 5-D Imp showings go, if the majority of their portrayals have shown them to be less powerful than the Spectre or the Presence, then the one or two portayals contrary to that should be considered aberrations in the Spiderman vs Firelord vein.

What if some of them are more powerful than the Spectre (like Mxy going all out), and some others are less powerful than him (like the Thunderbolt), then?