Does Oracle respect the law?

[MatthewC]

This is something I brought up in the issue #100 thread, but I'm interested in breaking it out for a separate discussion.

It's not necessarily a bad thing from a story or character perspective, but I find myself left with a vague feeling that Oracle doesn't respect any laws. And I think I know why I feel that way.

She only ever seems to interact with legal authorities as antagonists. They're the bad guys, or at least the people getting in her way. When Oracle sees a problem, her first impulse is to deal with it on her own. She'll send in her agents, take care of business, and arrange for somebody to be arrested afterwards- if she doesn't feel she's punished them sufficiently on her own.

Contrast it with other superheros. Superman's 'the boy scout', and Batman has traditionally worked with the police as much as they'll let him. He recognizes he's there to fill the gaps where the police fall short, but there's at least some communication there. Oracle doesn't even want the authorities to know she exists, which kind of precludes working with them.

Issue #100 was pretty typical for how she operates. She sees a way to proactively take down some crooks so she sends her team in to take care of business, regardless of any legalities.

But more than that, sometimes I get the feeling that Oracle just doesn't feel that any laws can or should restrain her from doing anything she feels would be morally right for her to do. I mean, remember the Superman/Luthor situation that existed for so long where Supes knew Luthor was dirty but couldn't prove it? Oracle would be totally in there messing with his company and manufacturing evidence if she had to, because she knew he was guilty and needed punishment and that would be enough.

That's the big difference between Oracle and other superheros to me. She won't just break to the rules to save lives, she'll break the rules to see the guilty punished.

Does anybody else agree? And what do you think that says about her as a character? How did she come to the place where she thinks that way?

[muimi]

She won't just break to the rules to save lives, she'll break the rules to see the guilty punished.

Does anybody else agree? And what do you think that says about her as a character? How did she come to the place where she thinks that way?

She's a Bat. :) Shouldn't that just about sum it up?

As far as Batman goes, yes, he does work with the police but he also circumvents them when he feels he has to. Oracle's thing is that she knows how to best use her resources. She knows how the police work so she knows how and when to use them to her advantage and it seems to me that much of what she does, working with the police is not to her advantage so she doesn't utilize them.

[Sharpandpointies]

I think you might very well be right about this. It fits, as presented. I wonder how she became this way (assuming she is), being the daughter of a Police Commissioner.

Or maybe that's what did it for her?

In any case, Oracle is a control freak. She does what she thinks is best, regardless of what other people might want. A perfect example was how she manipulated Canary and Huntress with their first missions. She did that to 'help' them - she thought it was the best possible thing for them, so she just went ahead and did it. Forget about the moral issues with covertly manipulating people who trust her.

And in Of Like Minds, there's the whole Huntress' Cell Phone issue.

This could be the same thing. Oracle knows best. The law? Takes too long, and might just get things wrong. She's better off just getting the job done herself.

Interesting idea. Heroic characters must have flaws, to be at all human or sympathetic. This would be a good one for her.

Of course, heroic characters should also try to overcome those flaws.

[AllisterH]

The problem is this.

The fundamental point about the police (especially in the street level Bat-universe) is that they're incompetent or on the take. A good example would be Gotham Central (sure, great stories by Rucka et al but the keystone cops would've been more effective).

One of the things I find interesting is that Oracle regularly breaks laws that if the police were doing, would cause Barbara and others to scream bloody murder, yet because she's a civilian it's legal? I think she's only had troubling thoughts once about this.

[IamtheRock3]

The problem is this.

The fundamental point about the police (especially in the street level Bat-universe) is that they're incompetent or on the take. A good example would be Gotham Central (sure, great stories by Rucka et al but the keystone cops would've been more effective).

One of the things I find interesting is that Oracle regularly breaks laws that if the police were doing, would cause Barbara and others to scream bloody murder, yet because she's a civilian it's legal? I think she's only had troubling thoughts once about this.


Well Dont know.

Think charcter in fiction get away with a lot in audience eyes, Fiction or not

I mean Jack Baurer works for the goverment and blew a PRETTY INNOCNET guys head off to get a Job done, and done terrible terrble..terrible things. But still like the guy

[diana_fan]

Babs fills in the gaps. If someone knocks off a liquore store, Oracle isn't going to send in a team. The things she does, only she can do. And she has to be unkown to do them effectively.

Law enforcement, even if it is not as corrupt and incompetent as the Gotham PD, is only able to do certain types of things. They can deal with certain sorts of crimes, but beyond that, they are ineffectual. Oracle can see the long view, the big picture, and use her team to accomplish things which no law enforcement could possibly hope to accomplish.

And Batman has NO respect for the law. At all. None. He respects Jim, on a personal level. But Batman is absolutely sure that he knows the best way to do things. If that best way is legal, great. If it isn't, great. He really does not care. And it isn't like the GPD really like him, either.

The Birds operate, for the most part, outside the system of law enforcement, but also in support of it. And in #100, the entire plan to get the daughter out of a Mexican prison was part-in-parcel of the plea agreement which her mob boss father had made *with* law enforcement. Outside, but in support of.

[MatthewC]

Law enforcement, even if it is not as corrupt and incompetent as the Gotham PD, is only able to do certain types of things. They can deal with certain sorts of crimes, but beyond that, they are ineffectual. Oracle can see the long view, the big picture, and use her team to accomplish things which no law enforcement could possibly hope to accomplish.

That's a justification, but it doesn't negate the point that Oracle doesn't see the law as applying to her in any way.

And Batman has NO respect for the law. At all. None. He respects Jim, on a personal level. But Batman is absolutely sure that he knows the best way to do things. If that best way is legal, great. If it isn't, great. He really does not care. And it isn't like the GPD really like him, either.

Not how I see the character of Batman at all. I think Batman believes that laws are important in and of themselves, not impediments in the way of him doing things. More importantly, he trusts himself to break laws only so far. Batman will conduct illegal entries and menace people to get them to talk, but I could never see him actually stooping to manufacturing evidence or shutting down things that are legal but he just doesn't approve of.

I don't see Oracle holding to the same limitations.

The Birds operate, for the most part, outside the system of law enforcement, but also in support of it. And in #100, the entire plan to get the daughter out of a Mexican prison was part-in-parcel of the plea agreement which her mob boss father had made *with* law enforcement. Outside, but in support of.

That wasn't how I read it. I saw it as a deal completely between Oracle and the mob boss father. He goes and turns states evidence to law enforcement after she delivers on her deal with him, not before, and law enforcement has no part of it.

[MatthewC]

The problem is this.

The fundamental point about the police (especially in the street level Bat-universe) is that they're incompetent or on the take. A good example would be Gotham Central (sure, great stories by Rucka et al but the keystone cops would've been more effective).

But are we saying the police are incapable of being effective as long as they have to follow the rules?

I'm just wondering if Babs has any kind of line other than her own moral code.

And again, it's not a problem or a bad thing for the character. All superheros are ultimately about the power fantasy of a lone person stepping beyond the law. Oracel just takes it a little further than most, and I think that's interesting.

[matterconsumer]

Well I see this as a means to setup the plot with Spymaster.

If Oracle doesn't do what she did then Spymaster isn't motivated to act.

I would have taken it from a different angle. Government vs superheroes is worn.

I would have had Spymaster competing with Oracle instead. So not only are they attempting to accomplish a mission but having to contend with each others agents as well. Oracle doesn't seem so interested in government approval. But Spymaster could use her attempts to beat Oracle (successfully achieving missions) to win governmental approval.

[diana_fan]

That's a justification, but it doesn't negate the point that Oracle doesn't see the law as applying to her in any way.

The law applies to her, but not to what she does. It's a subtle distinction, but it is meaningful.



Not how I see the character of Batman at all. I think Batman believes that laws are important in and of themselves, not impediments in the way of him doing things. More importantly, he trusts himself to break laws only so far. Batman will conduct illegal entries and menace people to get them to talk, but I could never see him actually stooping to manufacturing evidence or shutting down things that are legal but he just doesn't approve of.

Batman violates the law 7,000 times a day. Heck, when he adopted Tim, he violated the law, because I am pretty sure that he didn't actually tell the whole story.

Batman respects stopping crime. But he has no respect for the law. If a law gets in his way, it will have no effect stopping him. He never says, "Hmm, tapping someone's phone is illegal. I need to find another way." Batman believes that what he does is righteous and important. And he despises crime.

But that's not the same as having respect for the law.


I don't see Oracle holding to the same limitations.


Batman does basically the same things as Oracle. His methods are slightly different. But part of the irony of their rocky relationship is that they are so much alike, in many ways.

Let's put it this way: Neither Batman nor Oracle respect anything simply because some legislature voted on it. They both violate the law every day. They both believe that what they do is a higher purpose, attaining civil justice. And neither of them are hindered by pesky laws and regulations.


That wasn't how I read it. I saw it as a deal completely between Oracle and the mob boss father. He goes and turns states evidence to law enforcement after she delivers on her deal with him, not before, and law enforcement has no part of it.

They have a part in it because he is going to be testifying and putting criminals behind bars.

It's just that calling the FBI wouldn't have gotten the job done. Oracle could.

[ChthonicSpirit]

So, Diana Fan, you think that not only does Oracle not respect the law, but her job is predicated on such disrespect?

Hmm. You know, I would sort of object to that on principle. If you create a situation where anything can happen, it most likely will. If Oracle behaves the way you say she does, then she needs checks and balances.

Which, by the way, is one of the reasons I already miss Dinah. She had a strong moral center, and was one of the few people Oracle respected enough to listen to their objections.

[Cam63]

If you create a situation where anything can happen, it most likely will. If Oracle behaves the way you say she does, then she needs checks and balances.

Which, by the way, is one of the reasons I already miss Dinah. She had a strong moral center, and was one of the few people Oracle respected enough to listen to their objections.

I agree.
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[diana_fan]

So, Diana Fan, you think that not only does Oracle not respect the law, but her job is predicated on such disrespect?

Hmm. You know, I would sort of object to that on principle. If you create a situation where anything can happen, it most likely will. If Oracle behaves the way you say she does, then she needs checks and balances.

Which, by the way, is one of the reasons I already miss Dinah. She had a strong moral center, and was one of the few people Oracle respected enough to listen to their objections.

I guess that we are stuck on what "respect the law" means.

I find it difficult to attribute respect for the law to someone who daily violates local, state, federal, and international laws. Daily.

Oracle, however, has great respect for Justice. Something she shares with Batman. However, a respect for the law and a respect for Justice are two different things.

But your right: it is a dangerous line she walks. Just look at her propensity to manipulate others. She has to hold certain urges in check. Batman is the same way: he is capable of so much, which means that he has to constantly remind himself that just because he *can* do something doesn't mean he *should* do it (build Brother Eye, eg).

Sending in Kate, Barda, Helena, and Zinda was a direct violation of Mexican law. She has no right to violate Mexican sovereignty. None. Certainly, they had no right to be attacking people in the prison, fighting, bashing people with brief cases, etc.

But their cause was *Just*, it was simply not *legal*. And that's the distinction that's important. They were doing the Right Thing. They were just going about it in an illegal fashion.

But, for Oracle and for most other super-heroes, doing the Right Thing always trumps doing what is simply legal.

If you are arguing that super-heroes are always just a few bad decisions away from becoming facists, who dominate instead of protect the citizens, then I cannot disagree. There have been enough dystopian future stories and Elseworlds along those lines. And that, of course, is one of Lex Luthor's primary arguments.

But, in the end, it comes down to trusting the individual hero to have his or her heart in the right place, to be checked and balanced by the other heroes, and to always put Justice and Fairness first.

[MatthewC]

Sending in Kate, Barda, Helena, and Zinda was a direct violation of Mexican law. She has no right to violate Mexican sovereignty. None. Certainly, they had no right to be attacking people in the prison, fighting, bashing people with brief cases, etc.

But their cause was *Just*, it was simply not *legal*. And that's the distinction that's important. They were doing the Right Thing. They were just going about it in an illegal fashion.

But, for Oracle and for most other super-heroes, doing the Right Thing always trumps doing what is simply legal.

But does she try to find a legal way of doing what is just before resorting to an illegal way of doing what is just? I don't think she does.

I don't think the fact that, "Oh, this is illegal," even occurs to Oracle anymore when she sets out a mission. That's where I think the difference between Oracle and (some) other superheroes is.

Most superheroes will break the law to do the Right Thing, but most superheroes will at least acknowledge it as an unfortunate necessity that they wish they could have avoided.

[ChthonicSpirit]

I'd say not. I mean, look at what she did in her earliest story-arc with Gail - She sent Canary out to terrorize the random business dude on the basis of things he'd written about doing, not anything he'd done. She figures her way is better, whether the law could do it or not. Both Oracle and Batman seem to think that other people should do as they say, not as they do. And frankly, Batman has greater checks and balances on his authority than Oracle does. Hers are only provided by her villains.

[Alan2099]

Not how I see the character of Batman at all. I think Batman believes that laws are important in and of themselves, not impediments in the way of him doing things. More importantly, he trusts himself to break laws only so far. Batman will conduct illegal entries and menace people to get them to talk, but I could never see him actually stooping to manufacturing evidence or shutting down things that are legal but he just doesn't approve of.
While it's no longer canon (I don't think. It's hard to keep track of DC continutiy) Untold Legend of Batman had a good take on it.

Bruce originally wanted to be a ploice officer, but while studying law he relized that it was a vastly different thing than justice. The law restricted him too much and punished people it shouldn't, so he turned away from the that route.

[thespianphryne]

Does Oracle respect the law?

She sure does. But she's still going to be leaving the money on the dresser by the bed when she leaves.


Whole other relationship.

[Bright-Raven]

Why should she respect the law? Have you ever thought about that?

What has "law" done for her in her life?

It's defined her relationship with her father and she's watched him suffer time and again as he's tried to do what's right in a law system too corrupt to function.

The law failed her and her father both when the Joker shot and paralyzed her and then tortured her father. He just got another visit to Arkham. Big damn deal.

The law (and the hyprocrisy of it) is part of what caused friction between her and Dick once he went to Bludhaven and became a cop.

Babs believes in and respects justice. Not law.

[Bright-Raven]

Double post.

[Damo]

She respects the intent of the law. But she isn't going to stop her from doing what she believes is right.

Case in point, breaking the criminal's daughter out of jail. From what we're told the girl is innocent of what she was accussed, pretty innocent in general, and most likely going to die of an "accident" in prison in order to hurt her dad.

The "law" had been perverted into a weapon by dirty men, its intent had been ignored. She's not going to stand by because of that.

[Lester C.]

Unless she working for the NSA she’s breaking the law each and every day of her life so I’m going with no.

[PatrickG]

While it's no longer canon (I don't think. It's hard to keep track of DC continutiy) Untold Legend of Batman had a good take on it.

Bruce originally wanted to be a ploice officer, but while studying law he relized that it was a vastly different thing than justice. The law restricted him too much and punished people it shouldn't, so he turned away from the that route.

Actually, that angle got played up even more after Zero Hour when it was revealed that Bruce Wayne was an FBI agent for one day... And he quit.

Now... In retrospect, y'think the government would be somewhat suspicious of a guy who goes through training and then quits because he has a phobia about guns?

You think that might leak out?

[PatrickG]

Unless she working for the NSA she’s breaking the law each and every day of her life so I’m going with no.

I don't think you can respect the law and work for the NSA either...

[diana_fan]

I don't think you can respect the law and work for the NSA either...

Good point.

[Constantine Drakon]

Take THAT, NSA! (Please don't track me down and hurt me)

She respects the law, but her own father, a career policeman, is her role model. And he didn't exactly work inside the law by letting a vigilante help so much.