YABS Civil War Thread

[PatrickG]

I posted this at Millarworld but I wanted the gang of regulars here to see it and get some discussion going:

Okay... I've been behind on the Civil War.

But getting caught up, I have to say:

Excellent story, Mark.

HOWEVER.

I don't agree with either side.

Cap is in over his head with the Punisher. And being a vigilante is not a civil liberty.

Meanwhile, I understand Iron Man's motivations but he's gone too far. And Reed needs to get his head out of his rear.

I don't think it was right to boost security after 9-11 or Columbine and I don't think it's right here.

The world is a scary place. Our leaders and our fellow citizens need to stop trying to make the world feel "safe" through legislation and combatting threats to our way of life with more threats.

We need inspiration, not immediate action, in the face of fear.

Stamford is a tragedy but the people of the Marvel Universe seem to have a short memory. The response is such that I'm not sure that the Marvel Universe could face a Galactus as it stands.

No one is entitled to justice or revenge or even peace of mind. Your loved ones die. Your children grow up in an unsafe world. Grow a pair and live in constant awareness of that fact. Good people die in vain and it is not appropriate to seek immediate solutions to that problem. If you can't honestly face the deaths of thousands and say, regretfully, that perhaps the best course of action is no immediate course of action, cooler heads will never prevail.

Stark seems to think you can't go home again.

Well, I don't think that's fair unless you actually TRY to go home again.

I can't buy into Stark's fatalist futurism or Cap's never-say-die fervor.

If I were a super-hero in the Marvel Universe, I would register to set an example. To set forth that rule of law IS important.

And I would also campaign to repeal the act and move back towards the world as it once was.

Because I don't believe you can never go home again. The path there may leave us with wounds that don't heal. However, I believe it is personally reasonable to expect every man, woman and child on the planet to accept the risks and fears that come with an uncertain world unflinchingly and to favor death to a violation of principle or liberty.

This is the ultimate test we as humans must face to advance to the next phase of civilization. We must learn to turn the other cheek, to accept pain without retalliation, to live in a world of fear in which we would rather live under the heel of terror bravely than cowardly succumb to our desire for safety and become fearsome and terrible people as a consequence.

Someone recently had a thread elsewhere about what Superman would do or say if posed with the Civil War.

Here's what I wrote in reply. The following are the words I envision Superman using. I find it a pity that neither our world nor the Marvel Universe have a Superman.

"I came here as an immigrant and have been embraced as a friend. My greatest gift has been the opportunity to help. I've chosen not to intervene more proactively because I have faith in the good within humanity and I ask that you do not allow masks to get in the way of your faith in eachother. There are evils in this world but discerning the difference between those who mean well and those who mean ill is not a difficult one to make. If we allow ourselves to discourage those who have the means to help by allowing this government to invade their privacy, we begin a long dark path. I have, as I said, chosen not to intervene. But if you cannot afford some blind faith and a measure of trust in your fellow man then the example I have tried to provide is meaningless and I will be forced to take humanity by the hand more directly. Understand, I will not see good men and women's ability to do good deads compromised... and I will not stand by for any law which does so. Perhaps the metahuman community has been lax in taking care of its young and inexperienced... and I will take the burden of correcting this error personally. However, if these fine men and women become persecuted, the Justice League is not only prepared to offer them amnesty, training and support outside U.S. airspace at our installations but I -- personally -- will take a hand in supporting those men and women of conscience. To anyone who opposes humanity's birthright to take their destiny in their own hands and offer aid and compassion to eachother, with or without the mask of anonymity, I will be watching and waiting and I will stand against you in your efforts. Thank you."

[PatrickG]

Dammit. Just wrote another post that turned into an in-character essay.

I'm enjoying the story. But this one has my pulse racing a bit.

Anybody else's heart just break whenever we see that expression on Uatu's face?

Best use of the character in a decade, I think.

I know it's cliche but I wish he'd break his vow again. I wish somebody would acknowledge him more and say something.

That LOOK in Uatu's eyes just spells doom and tragedy and I wish someone would make a plea to him to interfere.

Even if Uatu does nothing...

The sheer weight of, say, a scene in which a broken Reed rips through his lab in a fit of anger and confusion, shouting at Uatu, would be worth the price of admission.

Reed needs to cut loose before this is over. He's showing the signs a bit now.

And IMO every definitive appearance by Reed had him breaking all the rules for his family.

I'm waiting for that moment. I'm waiting for that moment when he just breaks loose with, "To Hell with the plan. To Hell with your logic and government initiatives and the world changing. That's my wife you're messing with, Tony. This is my family you're tearing apart. I'd sooner let the world destroy itself than see my family torn apart. To Hell with the world, Tony. My family is my world. That world out there? Full of hate and fear and ignorance and violence and fascism. That's what I built chronambulatory platforms and Negative Zone harnesses and interdimensional phasing suits to get away from. I'd sooner let the world tear itself apart than tear my family apart. And if worst comes to worst, the Fantastic Four will be there to rebuild this flawed world atom by atom if we have to. Maybe we could make some improvements. In the meantime, if you want to talk to me or MY wife and MY kids, you'll have to send us a message in dimension Theta Zed Epsilon on the other side of the binary lepton clouds because we'll be out looking for a world that doesn't rely on these compromises and betrayals. Oh... And by the way? Have fun with Terrigan bombs designed to trigger several million new cases of mutations. Mankind is past due for a new evolutionary cycle... And I hope that when I get back, I find a more evolved world than the one I leave behind."

[TomStillwell]

The problem is, that Reed would have said that from the start. That's the problem with the whole of Civil War. Great story. Wrong characters.

[kingdom2000]

I am enjoying civil war. I don't really see the character not right hangups that everyone else is seeing but then I don't try to overthink these things but instead just go with the story and hope to be entertained.

Issue 5 however was a disappointment. Not seeing why the delay for the issue. No major revelations that wasn't already revealed via tie in titles, no major fights stuff, the cover itself isn't inaccurage but highly exaggerated which is a bit of a shame considering what happened in the story made spider-man seem kind of wussy (where his spider sense go?). The artwork doesn't really explain why the delay either. I almost get the impression that the story was toned down a bit so that the guy could catch up a little. There was even a rather pointless double spread that seemed to exist solely to make the page count. Basically issue 5 became a filler issue which concerns me as afraid we will get an Infinite Crisis resolution of too much cramped into to little space because the previous issues where poorly paced.

[hellokittykat]

How disappointing!:(
I thought that this was another thread where we insult each other!

[Grazzt]

How disappointing!:(
I thought that this was another thread where we insult each other!

Well, we could turn it into one.

...

You moron.

[sk716]

How disappointing!:(
I thought that this was another thread where we insult each other!

Yeah! Or at least declared war on each other!

I was all set to cut off the supply lines to Lester's camp and fire cannons at him.

[sk716]

...

You moron.

Look who's talking, baboon butt.

[TomStillwell]

I'm with sk716.

Do we have any dead friends we can clone and use against Lester?

[sk716]

I'm with sk716.

Do we have any dead friends we can clone and use against Lester?

First, I think we have to figure out who the leaders are and who's on what side?






Then we can start making clones.

[Grazzt]

I'm with sk716.

Do we have any dead friends we can clone and use against Lester?

Does Yogo count? He's always going on about how he got shot.

And since I suggested it, can I be in control of the Yogo clones? (We can call them Clogos.)

[sk716]

Does Yogo count? He's always going on about how he got shot.

And since I suggested it, can I be in control of the Yogo clones? (We can call them Clogos.)

I like it!

[TomStillwell]

I dunno how effective they will all be though. Gail will just murder them wholesale.

[sk716]

I dunno how effective they will all be though. Gail will just murder them wholesale.

Who cares, we can always make more.

[PatrickG]

Is it real or is it Clogo?

Only the hairdresser knows for sure.

[Lester C.]

How disappointing!:(
I thought that this was another thread where we insult each other!
!@#$ you!:mad:

[Lester C.]

Also !@#$ Tom Stillwell and SK 716.:mad:

[sk716]

Grazzt, release the clones!

[TomStillwell]

Lester, don't make me call my friends at the Illinois Bar Association...

[Night Swordsman]

Grazzt, release the clones!

Alright! No more cloning around.

Or i will start singing Paul McCartney songs.

I WILL do this.

Over and Over and Over.

And i AM the worlds worst singer. I make that Huang guy from American Idol look GOOD. I was even asked by my school NOT to sing in the all class christmas choir when i grew up. I kid you not.

So...No more clones. Not even to use against lester.
Or OF Lester,even(shudder).


Now behave and i will ask Gail to bake some cookies for us.

[sk716]

Alright! No more cloning around.

Or i will start singing Paul McCartney songs.

I WILL do this.

Over and Over and Over.

And i AM the worlds worst singer. I make that Huang guy from American Idol look GOOD. I was even asked by my school NOT to sing in the all class christmas choir when i grew up. I kid you not.

So...No more clones. Not even to use against lester.
Or OF Lester,even(shudder).


Now behave and i will ask Gail to bake some cookies for us.

Are you trying to call off my war?

Grazzt, more clones!

[Night Swordsman]

Are you trying to call off my war?

Grazzt, more clones!

Oh Puddin'. You SHOULD of NOT gone there. Even if your like my evil lesbian twin and all,you REALLY shouldn't.

Ok...Remember..Blame SK for this one:

With a little luck, we can help it out.
We can make this whole damn thing work out.
With a little love, we can lay it down.
Can't you feel the town exploding?
There is no end to what we can do together.
There is no end, there is no end.
The wiliow turns his back on inclement weather;
And if he can do it, we can do it, just me and you,

And a little luck, we can clear it up.
We can bring it in for a landing,
With a little luck, we can turn it on.
There can be no misunderstanding.

There is no end to what we can do together.There is no end, there is no end.
The willow turns his back on inclement weather;
We can do it, just me and you.

With a little push, we could set it off.
We can send it rocketing skywards.
With a little love, we could shake it up.
Don't you feel the comet exploding?

With a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck, a little luck, a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck, a little luck, a little luck.

With a little love baby,we can set it off
We can send it rocketing skywards
With a little luck we could shake it up
Oh Yeah

With a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck, a little luck, a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck.
With a little luck, a little luck, a little luck.


I HOPED you learned your lesson,Megacuteness. Now behave.

[Lester C.]

My avatar is a Sith Lord. In case you aren't up on your Star Wars lore but Sith Lords pwns clones AND Jedi Masters. That's how we roll.:cool:

[howyadoin]

Lester, don't make me call my friends at the Illinois Bar Association...Bar Association? Is that an organization of lawyers, or drunks?

[Lester C.]

Bar Association? Is that an organization of lawyers, or drunks?
Both.:) You are just so on tonight as everthing you are typing is very funny.

[hellokittykat]

!@#$ you!:mad:

!@#$ you twice!:mad:

[hellokittykat]

I dunno how effective they will all be though. Gail will just murder them wholesale.

This one is showing doubt! He must be one of the enemy!!

[TomStillwell]

Bar Association? Is that an organization of lawyers, or drunks?

The two aren't exclusive.

[TomStillwell]

This one is showing doubt! He must be one of the enemy!!

Sowing discord, are we? Traitor!!!

[Lester C.]

With the exception of Howyadoing !@#$ all the posters that have posted on this page.:mad:

[hellokittykat]

With the exception of Howyadoing !@#$ all the posters that have posted on this page.:mad:

Except Howyadoing eh? I think that you are only being nice to Howy because he makes the digests!
You, sir, are an opportunistic spy!

[hellokittykat]

Sowing discord, are we? Traitor!!!

You're the traitor by deflecting blame from yourself onto me!
Get 'im!!!

[Lester C.]

Except Howyadoing eh? I think that you are only being nice to Howy because he makes the digests!
You, sir, are an opportunistic spy!
Um no. This is why I don't !@#$ with Howyadoing.

Here I am in full ninja gear:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/partytillyoupuke/Birthday%202006/IMG_0003.jpg

Beware.

[Agent Helix]

So does anyone like this series?

[Young Avenger]

So does anyone like this series?

*rises hand*

[Agent Helix]

Thank you. Now line up to be placed in the Camp.

The.. uh.. Happy.. Camp. Of Happiness.

[hellokittykat]

Um no. This is why I don't !@#$ with Howyadoing.

Whaaaat?
Because he painted that wall blue?

[Young Avenger]

Thank you. Now line up to be placed in the Camp.

The.. uh.. Happy.. Camp. Of Happiness.

Camp? I wasn't told of any camp. Why am I the only person in line?

[Agent Helix]

Don't worry. We won't hurt you. We only want to help you.

[Young Avenger]

Help me? With what? I'm perfectly fine.

[Agent Helix]

Sigh.

They always want to do it the hard way.

[Starba]

I like Civil War, but only because I don't read Marvel comics anymore and never read the Avengers, so it's harder for me to see when characters are OOC. The pacing's great, I like the idea of huge change, Jonah's reaction to Spider-Man unmasking himself has been something I've wanted to see since I first learned who he was well over a decade ago, and the art's gorgeous. It feels so cinematic and much tighter than DC's big event was. In the context of the Marvel Universe it may not be so great, and like any good action flick the harder you look at it the easier you can see the plot holes and outrageousness simply for outrageousness's sake, but I think it's a fun romp.

I'm liking it miles better than the cheap, ho-hum, cartoony backpeddle-fest that was Infinite Crisis. Whether poorly executed or not, I've always been more of a fan of progressiveness in comics, especially with an eye to reflecting social questions. As much as I love DC, they really lost that credit when they decided to backlash against and ignore the original backstories and convictions of the young '90s characters whose comics dealt with personal, human issues well, like Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, Impulse, and the rest of the Young Justice crew. The "Apple doesn't fall far from the tree" attitude towards legacies nowadays is revolting, IMHO. Civil War was a breath of fresh air in that regard.

[Agent Helix]

I liked it, or at least I was willing to go with it, through issue 2. Then it just became increasingly clear that logic had no place in the story, and characters were saying things and actions were happening simply because the plot dictated they say or do something. Then Clone Thor appeared, and it just got dumb.

[Grazzt]

Okay, the Clogos are ready. Who dies first?

[PatrickG]

I like Civil War, but only because I don't read Marvel comics anymore and never read the Avengers, so it's harder for me to see when characters are OOC. The pacing's great, I like the idea of huge change, Jonah's reaction to Spider-Man unmasking himself has been something I've wanted to see since I first learned who he was well over a decade ago, and the art's gorgeous. It feels so cinematic and much tighter than DC's big event was. In the context of the Marvel Universe it may not be so great, and like any good action flick the harder you look at it the easier you can see the plot holes and outrageousness simply for outrageousness's sake, but I think it's a fun romp.

I'm liking it miles better than the cheap, ho-hum, cartoony backpeddle-fest that was Infinite Crisis. Whether poorly executed or not, I've always been more of a fan of progressiveness in comics, especially with an eye to reflecting social questions. As much as I love DC, they really lost that credit when they decided to backlash against and ignore the original backstories and convictions of the young '90s characters whose comics dealt with personal, human issues well, like Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, Impulse, and the rest of the Young Justice crew. The "Apple doesn't fall far from the tree" attitude towards legacies nowadays is revolting, IMHO. Civil War was a breath of fresh air in that regard.

This sums up my views fairly nicely. Although the characterizations seem consistent with my recollection of the characters, albeit played up for heightened drama.

Whereas with IDC, the decision to mindwipe BATMAN -- an action in which DCU patron saint Barry Allen took part -- doesn't work at all for me. Realistically, in my mind, if the JLA of that era mindwiped Batman, they would then submit to an internal inquisition in which the heroes of the world act as their judge and jury with Superman standing by with a Phantom Zone projector to use if they're guilty -- or they would submit themselves to the U.N. in hopes of being cleared of wrongdoing.

I'm disappointed in Reed. I see his points. I hope he snaps and sides with his family as my favorite Reed appearances are the ones with a teary eyed unshaven Reed punching the crap out of people and shooting at them to save his family at the expense of all else.

That old issue of WHAT IF...? (v1 #42) says it all. When Sue died in childbirth, a despondent Reed lost touch with reality, withdrew, broke down during the funeral, deleted all of his research and set off on a suicide mission to kill Annihilus in revenge. That one issue is a touchstone for a lot of people. Regular FF writers have cited it. It got attention outside of comics (National Policy magazine or something?) and I contacted the writer not long ago to discover that in spite of it being the only FF story he ever wrote, he still gets fanmail over 20 years later.

So it bothers me not to see that Reed here. However, there's still some hope of that, I think.

[hellokittykat]

Okay, the Clogos are ready. Who dies first?

MonkeyBoy! Before he does his Monkey Butt Attack!!

[TomStillwell]

You're the traitor by deflecting blame from yourself onto me!
Get 'im!!!

Well, Kitty...hey who are you calling no...OHMIGAWD SHE'S USING A STARK CELL PHONE!!!

[Lester C.]

MonkeyBoy! Before he does his Monkey Butt Attack!!
Azrael 52 is well acquainted with Monkey Boy's Butt Attack!!:eek: ;)

[PatrickG]

You people turn my overly serious rantings about a comic book into a witch hunt where we have Gail running around shooting Clogos and people are taking absurd sides in our own little civil war.

I love you guys.

[hellokittykat]

You people turn my overly serious rantings about a comic book into a witch hunt where we have Gail running around shooting Clogos and people are taking absurd sides in our own little civil war.

I love you guys.

He's trying flattery!
Clogos attaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!

[PatrickG]

Ah... But I was prepared for this instance, you fools!

I saved a hair sample from my first visit to the YABS boards and now with Gerbertronic nanotech, I present you with my secret weapon. J-Bolt knew and nearly blew the cover on the Illuminati's conspiracy...

Ladies and gentlemen and ferrets...

I present you with...

MacQuackie!

http://www.pevans.co.uk/siege/Duck.jpg

[Grazzt]

He's trying flattery!
Clogos attaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!

You dare to usurp my control over the Clogos?!

Clesters, attack hellokittykat!

[TomStillwell]

Ah... But I was prepared for this instance, you fools!

I saved a hair sample from my first visit to the YABS boards and now with Gerbertronic nanotech, I present you with my secret weapon. J-Bolt knew and nearly blew the cover on the Illuminati's conspiracy...

Ladies and gentlemen and ferrets...

I present you with...

MacQuackie!

Diabolical!

Wait...isn't it duck season?

[TomStillwell]

Clesters, attack hellokittykat!

I had clesters once. A cream cleared it right up.

[Michael P]

Diabolical!

Wait...isn't it duck season?
I thought it was rabbit season.

[sk716]

Okay, the Clogos are ready. Who dies first?

Night Swordsman for singing off key.

[TomStillwell]

I thought it was rabbit season.

Duck Season!!!

[sk716]

Duck Season!!!

Rabbit Season!!!

[hellokittykat]

Rabbit Season!!!

Elmer Season!!!

[sk716]

Elmer Season!!!

Duck Season!!!

[TomStillwell]

Elmer Season!!!

LESTER SEASON!!!

[hellokittykat]

Duck Season!!!


Duck Season!!!

[hellokittykat]

LESTER SEASON!!!

Yeah I think is one we can all agree on but since we're in a Civil War...

Clogos on here quick!!

[sk716]

Duck Season!!!

You asked for it!

BLAM!!!

[hellokittykat]

Dammit!
Now my bill is turned around backwards!

[TomStillwell]

Could be worse. You could just be a pile of ashes sporting eyeballs.

Happened to me once. Honest.

[thespianphryne]

The best thing about wars is that suppliers get to make so much money. So...

Place your order for two batches of transduction proteins and get one cellular disruptor rifle free! Now you can kill your enemies and make their clones fight on your side. All for one low cost of your soul!*




*Mortuary and hospital fees extra

[TomStillwell]

We have the clogos and the clesters.

What about the Super-Clonics? All that unbridled virgin fury would be a powerful weapon.

[d newton]

I'm liking it miles better than the cheap, ho-hum, cartoony backpeddle-fest that was Infinite Crisis.
Okay, where was the backpeddling exactly? :confused:

Realistically, in my mind, if the JLA of that era mindwiped Batman, they would then submit to an internal inquisition in which the heroes of the world act as their judge and jury with Superman standing by with a Phantom Zone projector to use if they're guilty -- or they would submit themselves to the U.N. in hopes of being cleared of wrongdoing.
What heroes would you use at that point in time?

[Night Swordsman]

Night Swordsman for singing off key.

Oh you SILLY WABBIT! You NEVER learn.... :evilsmile

You brought this upon yourself...

I remember all my life
raining down as cold as ice.
Shadows of a man,
a face through a window cryin' in the night,
the night goes into
Morning just another day;
happy people pass my way.
Looking in their eyes,
I see a memory I never realized how happy you made me.


Oh Mandy well,
you came and you gave without taking,
but I sent you away.
Oh, Mandy well,
kissed me and stopped me from shaking,
and I need you today.
Oh, Mandy!


I'm standing on the edge of time;
I've walked away when love was mine.
Caught up in a world of uphill climbing,
the tears are in my mind and nothin' in rhyming.


Oh Mandy well,
you came and you gave without taking,
but I sent you away.
Oh, Mandy well,
kissed me and stopped me from shaking,
and I need you today.
Oh, Mandy!


Yesterday's a dream
I face the morning
Crying on a breeze
The pain is calling
Oh Mandy
Well, you came and you gave without taking
But I sent you away oh, Mandy
Well, you kissed me and stopped me from shaking
And I need you today Oh, Mandy
you came and you gave without taking
But I sent you away oh, Mandy
Well, you kissed me and stopped me from shaking
And I need you

[PatrickG]

Okay, where was the backpeddling exactly? :confused:


What heroes would you use at that point in time?

Same heroes.

But I'd have them put themselves on trial before their fellow heroes for their actions.

Instead of sitting around hoping nothing goes wrong and that they don't get caught.

[Sally Sensational]

Oh you SILLY WABBIT! You NEVER learn.... :evilsmile

You brought this upon yourself...



I say Night stops singing or we get out the Aluvium-32 space modulator!

Unless of course Monkey Boy has hidden it again . . .

SWORDSMAN SEASON!

[d newton]

But I'd have them put themselves on trial before their fellow heroes for their actions.
Wait, you want them to be put on trial for mindwiping a teammate who found them doing the same thing to a bad guy? Why? :D

[Night Swordsman]

I say Night stops singing or we get out the Aluvium-32 space modulator!

Unless of course Monkey Boy has hidden it again . . .

SWORDSMAN SEASON!

AHH!!! um.

All i want is a clone free world!

hmmm...

Clone free, as free as the testube blows
As free as the cells grows
Clone free to follow your heart

Live free, and scientists surrounds you
The world still hounds you
Each time you look like a reality star.

*Stay free, where no cell walls divide you
You're free target for a homicide
So there's alot of reason to hide

Clone free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
Cause you're Clone free

(Repeat *)

[Sally Sensational]

AHH!!! um.
Clone free, as free as the testube blows
As free as the cells grows
Clone free to follow your heart

Live free, and scientists surrounds you
The world still hounds you
Each time you look like a reality star.

*Stay free, where no cell walls divide you
You're free target for a homicide
So there's alot of reason to hide

Clone free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
Cause you're Clone free

(Repeat *)

That's pure poetry, Night. I rescind my order to Acme for the Space Modulator. You have just proven yourself worthy of continuing to live and amuse.

[PatrickG]

Wait, you want them to be put on trial for mindwiping a teammate who found them doing the same thing to a bad guy? Why? :D

Because heroes have consciences that must be absolved and clean. Because the answer to "Who watches the Watchmen?" at some point must be themselves.

Because when someone is above conventional law and conventional morality, they are not heroes if they do not try themselves and ultimately absolve themselves or punish themselves for the failure to transcend human frailties like vengeance and hate and fear.

[Starba]

Okay, where was the backpeddling exactly? :confused:

Oh, I dunno, bringing back characters and concepts who were written out of the DCU for a reason (Earth 2 may be coming back? I guess DC gave up on trying to widen its fanbase, because god knows even us fans have a hard time balancing THAT continuity equation); "returning characters back to their roots" in order to rewrite 20+-year-old stories in hopes of selling them to a modern audience (Yes, I'm looking at you, Brad Meltzer and Dan DiDio); turning unique characters like Tim Drake into virtual clones of their mentors or predecessors by ignoring or obliterating dangling plot threads in their backstories as well as their supporting casts; turning the superheroing business back into a paternalistic, adults-only operation while making the actual stories as stilted, melodromatic, and goofy as they ever were in the Silver Age (I'm still looking at you, Brad Meltzer and Dan DiDio); firmly re-margianalizing intentionally created minority characters by shoving them into proven unpopular books and costumes (or cancelling their titles altogether) to only confirm the myth that they'll never deserve status as well-rounded icons; etc. etc. etc.

Maybe older readers squeal with glee every time Kathy Kane pulls out a gimmicky bat-baton in her stilletto heels or Dick Grayson does a double backflip wearing a Flashdance T-shirt, but for my generation this has to be the worst time to be reading DC comics...

[PatrickG]

I don't get the multiverse hate.

I'm more into parallel universes than I am super-heroes.

Plus, Marvel has had a multiverse for years without complaint.

I don't know where all this "Earth 2 is coming back" talk comes from though. I think people are misreading JLoA #0.

[Starba]

I don't know where all this "Earth 2 is coming back" talk comes from though. I think people are misreading JLoA #0.

There were some very conspicuous changes made to Infinite Crisis when the hardback came out that have been pointing in the direction of Earth 2's return. They're collected on Wikipedia somewhere, no doubt.

[PatrickG]

There were some very conspicuous changes made to Infinite Crisis when the hardback came out that have been pointing in the direction of Earth 2's return. They're collected on Wikipedia somewhere, no doubt.

I heard there were deleted pages in an appendix of Superboy leading the Legion and of Earth-2 Wonder Woman acknowledging Fury somehow.

But I didn't realize there were actual changes to the story proper.

[Starba]

I heard there were deleted pages in an appendix of Superboy leading the Legion and of Earth-2 Wonder Woman acknowledging Fury somehow.

But I didn't realize there were actual changes to the story proper.

Lois's final words to Superman is the most telling change I can think of at the moment, but a lot of other dialogue was changed, as well.

[d newton]

Because heroes have consciences that must be absolved and clean.
I think that heroes shouldn't always be honest & good IMO!

[Starba]

I think that heroes shouldn't always be honest & good IMO!

Then wouldn't they be anti-heroes? ;)

[PatrickG]

I think that heroes shouldn't always be honest & good IMO!

I think they should fall only to pick themselves up.

IMO the people who fail to do that aren't heroes and never were.

[NickThompson]

I heard there were deleted pages in an appendix of Superboy leading the Legion and of Earth-2 Wonder Woman acknowledging Fury somehow.

But I didn't realize there were actual changes to the story proper.
http://www.comicboards.com/dcb/view.php?trd=061009183155 I believe.

[Starba]

I think they should fall only to pick themselves up.

IMO the people who fail to do that aren't heroes and never were.

But aren't a "fall" and a moral lapse only the same thing when there is a universal code of morality to subscribe to? One character's moral lapse can be construed by another character as the only way to get the job done. Is Wonder Woman any less of a hero for not apologizing for the death of Max Lord if she still believes adamantly that it was the right thing to do? Batman doesn't think so. Superman doesn't think so. But in Wonder Woman's eyes killing one man saved countless others, the least of which Superman himself.

Is Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman any less hero than the others?

[PatrickG]

But aren't a "fall" and a moral lapse only the same thing when there is a universal code of morality to subscribe to? One character's moral lapse can be construed by another character as the only way to get the job done. Is Wonder Woman any less of a hero for not apologizing for the death of Max Lord if she still believes adamantly that it was the right thing to do? Batman doesn't think so. Superman doesn't think so. But in Wonder Woman's eyes killing one man saved countless others, the least of which Superman himself.

Is Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman any less hero than the others?

Super-heroes have had a code since the 1950s. And some people happen to like super-heroes FOR that code.

It might be interesting if Jesus killed the apostles and ate their flesh. It might be interesting if Ghandi became a gluttonish British Pop Star who lobbied FOR imperial rule.

But people are more interested in those figure's moral teachings than how interesting their stories are.

I think a balance needs to be struck. Super-heroes, particularly the classics, STAND for SPECIFIC moral principles that people have patterned their lives after. Dropping that for an interesting story and a quick buck is taudry.

[Starba]

I think a balance needs to be struck. Super-heroes, particularly the classics, STAND for SPECIFIC moral principles that people have patterned their lives after.

Even Wonder Woman? Who the heck IS Wonder Woman? She changes by the half decade!

Don't get me wrong, I agree that characters should have a definite something that makes them who they are, but I don't think there is nor should be a single binding thought process that ties them all together except a certain degree of selflessness and wanting to do the right thing (yet Booster Gold's selfish, but saves people. Is he not a hero?). Not every reader will agree what the "right thing" is, though, so I don't see any reason why superheroes should, either.

[d newton]

Then wouldn't they be anti-heroes?
No, they wouldn't - heroes shouldn't always see things in black & white!

Super-heroes have had a code since the 1950s.
In the 1950's, yes - but not nowdays.

[PatrickG]

In the 1950's, yes - but not nowdays.

Well, I can't be a fan of super-heroes who don't have a code. Flat out.

[TomStillwell]

In the 1950's, yes - but not nowdays.

Then they aren't heroes.

[Grazzt]

It might be interesting if Jesus killed the apostles and ate their flesh.

Interesting? It would be freakin' awesome, is what it would be! Although I'd replace flesh with brains (Jesus is a zombie, after all).

[PatrickG]

BTW, it's not that I oppose interesting takes. I like Kingdom Come and DKR.

But it drives me crazy when people suggest those mbody how Superman or Batman should be when they're obviously spins on the concept of how they should be.