Today's Supergirl - pages out of order? (spoilers) [Archive]

AaronJ

11-15-2006, 03:59 PM

It is linear storytelling, but not start-to-finish necessarily. It's like Godard said: Every film has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Just not necessarily in that order.

I really dig the way Kelly does it. I think it works especially well in Supergirl. He is able to capture the way Kara's mind works.

This was another stellar issue. Joe Kelly is hitting on all cylinders. And I mean COME ON! Pirates! Yeah! Where's Captain Jack?

Seriously, I look forward to this title more than almost any other. Kelly is telling great stories about an interesting character, doing it in a compelling way, and also hitting pretty hard on the meta-text.

And as much as I have enjoyed Churchill's work, I have to give it up for Joe Benitez as a fill-in this issue. Ay caramba! Absolutely gorgeous unrestrained and unapologetic cheesecake. He also manages to tell a story very well, too. If I didn't know better, I would have thought he was Brazilian.

And on top of everything, they are getting the book out on time. Will wonders never cease?

Kent H

11-15-2006, 04:13 PM

Yeah, since Joe took over this has become one of my top 5 faves from DC. I'm mildly disappointed the story's getting delayed due to the Terra story next issue, but I like G&P & Conner, and I plan on getting the mini, so it's not too bad.

RabidWolfe

11-15-2006, 04:52 PM

Well, I'm glad it's working for some people. But I just find myself turned off by it. I'm going to be dropping it from my pull list soon.

Zel

11-15-2006, 05:12 PM

AaronJ

11-15-2006, 05:20 PM

This issue was perfectly easy to follow. The undercover-operation story moved along with occasional flashbacks to how Supergirl hooked up with the Outsiders.

This story itself was average. I just don't know why they just didn't call in the rest of the Outsiders and beat the pirates up once they found them. Supegirl was fast enough to fool them into thinking she shot a guy in the head. If she can move faster than they can see, she should've had no problem beating the hell out of them, even with their magic claws.

Because they had to discover what sort of means the pirates were using to become super-powered. That entailed getting closer to them, and being trusted enough.

Powerboy showing up and saving the day was just fucking lame. This is Supergirl's book, that's what she should've been doing.

She couldn't kill the creature, and she was paralyzed by indecision. Her inability to kill, even when begged to, was clearly a result of the incident on Krypton with her mother. She was finally finding out she was made of.

It was just mean the way she was teasing Boomer :evilsmile cuddling up next to him while both were in their pajamas while saying he's like a brother to her. That's just plain 'ol mean.

Beyond cruel. Kara has a nasty-fun streak to her that is wonderful. She may be Superman's cousin, but no one will ever call her a Girl Scout.

Young Avenger

11-15-2006, 05:26 PM

She couldn't kill the creature, and she was paralyzed by indecision. Her inability to kill, even when begged to, was clearly a result of the incident on Krypton with her mother. She was finally finding out she was made of.

I found that part to be stupid. In the Kandor arc she was acting like the Punisher and willing to kill. Now we get this crap about her being unwilling to kill some Shark thing?

AaronJ

11-15-2006, 06:43 PM

I found that part to be stupid. In the Kandor arc she was acting like the Punisher and willing to kill. Now we get this crap about her being unwilling to kill some Shark thing?

They were two completley different sets of circumstances. In Kandor, not only was she a mess, but she was reacting to threats and violence.

Here, this was a defenseless creature, begging to be euthanized. It hit close to home (see flashbacks).

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 01:15 AM

That's Joe Kelly's style. He starts in the middle, then shows chronological flashbacks leading up to the start of the story as the main story progresses. Kinda like the movie Memento, without the going in reverse aspect.

And without the "it being good" aspect.

Seriously, I look forward to this title more than almost any other. Kelly is telling great stories about an interesting character, doing it in a compelling way, and also hitting pretty hard on the meta-text.

Metatextual? I only stopped reading this book two issues ago, but I read enough of Kelly's run of it so far and haven't seen anything metatextual in it.

This issue was perfectly easy to follow. The undercover-operation story moved along with occasional flashbacks to how Supergirl hooked up with the Outsiders.

This story itself was average. I just don't know why they just didn't call in the rest of the Outsiders and beat the pirates up once they found them. Supegirl was fast enough to fool them into thinking she shot a guy in the head. If she can move faster than they can see, she should've had no problem beating the hell out of them, even with their magic claws.

Ah, Supergirl pretending to kill people so other, lesser heroes will think she's "cool." God am I glad DC brought Kara back...

Powerboy showing up and saving the day was just fucking lame. This is Supergirl's book, that's what she should've been doing.

Powerboy's supposed to wind up being her boyfriend, I believe, and they need to establish and flesh out his character somewhere. I just wish it was in a book I was reading.

It was just mean the way she was teasing Boomer :evilsmile cuddling up next to him while both were in their pajamas while saying he's like a brother to her. That's just plain 'ol mean.

So she's still jailbait? Good, wouldn't want Kelly to forget about that.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 01:40 AM

Metatextual? I only stopped reading this book two issues ago, but I read enough of Kelly's run of it so far and haven't seen anything metatextual in it.

Kelly's first two issues on teh title were from Rucka's story. #9, Kelly's first issue on his own, was loaded meta-textually. It basically was one huge Mission Statement. It's been there in #10 and #11 as well, but not to the same degree.

Ah, Supergirl pretending to kill people so other, lesser heroes will think she's "cool." God am I glad DC brought Kara back...

No. She pretended to kill the guy to prove that she was really a bad-ass cold blooded killer, to get in tight with the pirates. It was after this incident that she was offered a "promotion" which consisted of getting the chance to eat of the creature, and be one truly one of them.

In other words, it worked. And it showed not only quick-thinking, but a good tactical mind. Batman would be quite proud.

So she's still jailbait? Good, wouldn't want Kelly to forget about that.

No. She's not jailbait.

SKETCHSANCHEZ

11-16-2006, 02:15 AM

Cheese cake eh? So this isse contains none of that "Her skirt is REALLY short but NO PANTY SHOTS FOR YOU!"

Geez, even the original Kara got a panty shot. :p

SKETCHSANCHEZ

11-16-2006, 02:18 AM

I'm glad theres a fill-in, I cant stand churchill.

Every other artist draws a good super girl (Benes, or Kitson for instance), she never looks too slutty, but Churchill makes her skirt super low, her torso mega-skinny, and gives her THE WORST facial expressions. I hate em, makes me wanna punch her in the mouth.

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 02:19 AM

Kelly's first two issues on teh title were from Rucka's story. #9, Kelly's first issue on his own, was loaded meta-textually. It basically was one huge Mission Statement. It's been there in #10 and #11 as well, but not to the same degree.

So it was less metatext, more instant characterization? 'Cause I read the beginning of Kelly's "going 'lone" at the book and he made it apparent that he was planning on turning Kara into an angsty teen-girl at the drop of a hat and at the sake of actually following through with the Argon City storyline. Meanwhile, in two other books, we've seen a much better, more genuine Kara Zor-El that makes this book less and less interesting?

No. She's not jailbait.

Is she still seventeen? Is she still waving her ass in front of the twenty-five year old son of a villian? Does she still have a crush on an almost thirty-something former Boy Wonder while making Arsenal wish he was still Speedy?

If you've answered "yes!" to any of these questions, she's still jailbait. DC should start a "countdown to Supergirl being legal" mini-series to replace 52 next year.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 03:10 AM

So it was less metatext, more instant characterization? 'Cause I read the beginning of Kelly's "going 'lone" at the book and he made it apparent that he was planning on turning Kara into an angsty teen-girl at the drop of a hat and at the sake of actually following through with the Argon City storyline. Meanwhile, in two other books, we've seen a much better, more genuine Kara Zor-El that makes this book less and less interesting?

"You know. I know you know ... Expectations people have about you. 'So-and-so is from such-and-such so she MUST be like THAT. I'm not like THAT."

Kara from Krypton is supposed (by the readers) to be like THAT. Kara is not like THAT. She doesn't know exactly who she is. She is struggling with a lot of different issues. She might not know who she is, but she definitely knows who she isn't: those other Supergirls.

And the Kara in SG&LoSH was convinced that she was dreaming. To her, none of the horrible, tragic events of her young life had actually happened. When she finally had to accept the truth, she freaked out. They even dumped her off in Kandor, afraid of what might happen when her memories came back.

The flashbacks in #9, all but one of which are triggered by something Owen says, work to inform us about things Kara has done. But they also serve as not only a look into the thought process of Kara, but as a way of addressing various issues which readers have had with both the character and the book.

Even the cover itself, a mirror image of the cover of All Star Superman #1, is a clear hint as to what we will be getting inside, and of what Kelly wants to do with the book and with the character of Kara Zor-El.

Is she still seventeen? Is she still waving her ass in front of the twenty-five year old son of a villian? Does she still have a crush on an almost thirty-something former Boy Wonder while making Arsenal wish he was still Speedy?

If you've answered "yes!" to any of these questions, she's still jailbait. DC should start a "countdown to Supergirl being legal" mini-series to replace 52 next year.

You realize that in the majority of the world, as well as in the majority of the US, the age of consent is 16 or less. There are very few places where the age of consent is 18.

So, unless you know for sure where Gotham is, I would hold off on your judgement.

Not to mention that Kara isn't even a human being. Her actual age is impossible to determine. And she doesn't even know her actual age.

Now, they do play that angle up. Kara teases Owen about it. But she isn't going to be involved sexually with him. They are friends. In #11, there is a very funny scene of Kara really messing with Owen's head. So, it's all played for laughs.

The farthest Kara has gone with a guy would be a kiss on the cheek of both Batman and Owen. She's actually gone farther with a woman, when Ivy laid one on her, trying to use the sythetic K to control her mind.

So, in the end, she is all sizzle no steak, for now.

KET

11-16-2006, 03:33 AM

I'm glad theres a fill-in, I cant stand churchill.

This guy wasn't much better. Lots of scenes of lurid T & A and pointless violence, as if this book wants to be the comic book equivalent of Grand Theft Auto instead of a superhero read. Kara's "doe caught in the headlights" expressions were supposed to make her more sympathetic, I suppose. All I thought was, "Pathetic, now the trailer park Barbie doll is imitating Precious Moments figurines."

Kelly's writing was the usual phoned-in mess that fits this series' low standards. Stayed on the shelf.

SKETCHSANCHEZ

11-16-2006, 03:40 AM

Lurid T&A sounds right up my alley :thumbsup:

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 02:06 PM

"You know. I know you know ... Expectations people have about you. 'So-and-so is from such-and-such so she MUST be like THAT. I'm not like THAT."

What issue was that from, the one where she initially meets up with Captain Boomerang Jr., for whatever reason? If so, must've missed it, but yeah, that sounds like some abrupt, lazy metatext from Kelly, where he blurts out his intentions for the character through her speech balloon. At any rate, the way she's being characterized at the expense of Loeb's initial arc is what made me drop the book.

You realize that in the majority of the world, as well as in the majority of the US, the age of consent is 16 or less. There are very few places where the age of consent is 18.

Apples and oranges. The point is, she's underage, she can't smoke or drink, she looks like super-jailbait, and from the sound of things, she's still dancing around in her undies in front of grown men and drooling over Nightwing. That's some lazy !@#$% right there. That kind of crap would've flown for super kids like Gen 13, but I expect a bit more from a female superhero with proxy icon status. And yes, Kelly's made it clear his intentions to shatter that presupposed characterization, and kudos to him, he's done it and alienated at least one person from the character. I've been thinking about kicking Outsiders from my pull list too, because OYL it's been rubbish, but when Supergirl starts showing up, I think it's gonna' be a much easier decision to make.

Enjoy the book. I'll be keeping an eye on reviews, waiting for the day it sounds like I can enjoy it again.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 03:30 PM

What issue was that from, the one where she initially meets up with Captain Boomerang Jr., for whatever reason? If so, must've missed it, but yeah, that sounds like some abrupt, lazy metatext from Kelly, where he blurts out his intentions for the character through her speech balloon. At any rate, the way she's being characterized at the expense of Loeb's initial arc is what made me drop the book.

Yes, issue #9, page 1. She met up with Owen to go out on a "date". It really was neither that big of a deal, nor anything other than innocent. During the course of the evening, she is trying to find her place. Owen repeatedly reminds her of things that have happened in her life.

Kelly has made her into a complex, and troubled character, but also a fun and sarcastic one. Issue #10 was, for the most part, about the pitfalls of trying to be someone you aren't. Kara is a super-heroine, but she is also, apparently, the victim of some sort of abuse. She is a good friend to those few she has, but she also has difficulty relating to people. She can think tactically, but then can freeze up.

She isn't one thing, and hasn't been able to find a comfort level in anything she has tried to do. Everything she does, says, and thinks is rooted both in the present and the past. It's part of what makes Kelly's storytelling style work especially well in this title.

Apples and oranges. The point is, she's underage, she can't smoke or drink, she looks like super-jailbait, and from the sound of things, she's still dancing around in her undies in front of grown men and drooling over Nightwing. That's some lazy !@#$% right there. That kind of crap would've flown for super kids like Gen 13, but I expect a bit more from a female superhero with proxy icon status. And yes, Kelly's made it clear his intentions to shatter that presupposed characterization, and kudos to him, he's done it and alienated at least one person from the character. I've been thinking about kicking Outsiders from my pull list too, because OYL it's been rubbish, but when Supergirl starts showing up, I think it's gonna' be a much easier decision to make.

I liked Loeb's work on this book. And I like Loeb's stuff generally. But there was much more of a light feel to the book when he was writing it.

It's still funny, and it's still enjoyable, but there is a lot more "there" there, now that Kelly has picked it up.

As to the whole sexed-up thing, it really is played far more as a teasing joke than anything else. And, yes, she has a crush on Nightwing. Who doesn't? Is that even surprising? Her drawing in her notebook was about the most hilarious thing I've seen in a while.

That's Kara: one the one hand, she is this vulnerable, broken girl; while on the other she is a $&#% your #&$% up super-heroine. Those two aspects of her nature came together, mixed with her completely shattered past, and resulted in her being paralyzed in #11.

Her situation was summed up when the creature wanted her to euthanize it, and she said: "No ... there's got to be a way ... there's always a way ..." to which the creature responds "Child ... I can see in your eyes ... you know better."

That's Kara, right there, summed up in one exchange of dialogue. She *wants* desperately to believe that life can be good, that people don't have to die, that things can be made right; unfortunately, given her past, and what she has seen and experienced, deep down in her soul, she knows it isn't true.

That's the inherent battle waged within the character. A fight between what she has experience versus what she hopes for.

Enjoy the book. I'll be keeping an eye on reviews, waiting for the day it sounds like I can enjoy it again.

I will.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 03:35 PM

This guy wasn't much better. Lots of scenes of lurid T & A and pointless violence, as if this book wants to be the comic book equivalent of Grand Theft Auto instead of a superhero read.

How was the violence pointless? First, Kelly wrote the script, not Benitez.

Second, it's an issue about meta-human pirates who are on a killing rampage. Seems to me that the story will be somewhat violent.

As to the cheesecake, no doubt: Benitez is unapologetic. And it completely works. There were a number of visual jokes as well thoughout.

And I've said it before, but the way Kelly writes puts a lot more pressure on the penciller. Kelly leaves a good deal of the storytelling to be done visually. No captions all contribute to this.

I thought Benitez did a great job.

Kid Kamikaze10

11-16-2006, 04:44 PM

When I finished reading this, I had one thing in my mind:

Dang, there are so many DC superheroines that deserved a title more than this girl. Namely someone who's already been screwed over in this title (Powergirl), and someone who will get screwed over in this title (Cassandra Cain. Yeah, she deserves another title).

Heck, Arzael and most if not all of the Seven Soldiers deserve a title more than Supergirl right now. And yet, DC doesn't get it...........

Hey, Super Jailbait! I like that title, and it kinda fits her!

On a serious note, the issue wasn't that bad, just random and kinda worthless. Power Boy looks like Darkseid's b**ch, Nightwing deserves better than the Outsiders, and Boomer is Gambit-lite.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-16-2006, 05:01 PM

It was a wank when Tarantino did it. And he's a half decent director.

Joe Kelly should stick to the basic stuff.

Mia

11-16-2006, 05:32 PM

I was going to add to this thread, but Diana fan (again) stole my thunder! Brilliant summations and analysis. I just love this book, and this is no mean feat. I don’t tend to like teenage characters.

There’s something both admirable and identifiable about Kara. The only two characters (for me) who have hit that mark is Daredevil (Bendis) and Huntress (Rucka/Dixon)

Kara is the right blend of sweet and sour. I am not interested in reading about some saccharine heroine but neither am I interested in reading about an angry self absorbed teenager. Really is nice to see such a great female character. There are so few at DC.

By the way is this the only book where she’s been portrayed this way?

Beyond cruel. Kara has a nasty-fun streak to her that is wonderful. She may be Superman's cousin, but no one will ever call her a Girl Scout.

Yo baby!:D

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 05:45 PM

I was going to add to this thread, but Diana fan (again) stole my thunder! Brilliant summations and analysis.

Thanks.

Kara is the right blend of sweet and sour. I am not interested in reading about some saccharine heroine but neither am I interested in reading about an angry self absorbed teenager. Really is nice to see such a great female character. There are so few at DC.

Exactly. That's why she works so well. And why is she is so loathed. She is neither end of the spectrum. She is a well-thought out, complex character who is engaged in a real struggle with herself. Her worst enemy is her own past and lack of certitude. There are monsters, and villains, and all that ... but Kara has to overcome her internal demons. And those are the toughest battles to win.

By the way is this the only book where she’s been portrayed this way?

Well, there were all these people saying "Look how great the Kara in SG&LoSH is! She's so nice and chipper!" What they were ignoring is the fact that Kara thought it was all a dream she was having on Krypton. So, none of the the horiible traumas she has sustained had happened, as far as she was concerned.

Things have taken a turn, though. :)

Mia

11-16-2006, 05:57 PM

Well, there were all these people saying "Look how great the Kara in SG&LoSH is! She's so nice and chipper!" What they were ignoring is the fact that Kara thought it was all a dream she was having on Krypton. So, none of the the horiible traumas she has sustained had happened, as far as she was concerned.

Things have taken a turn, though. :)

Thanks. But I guess I'm wondering if she's like this in the Peter David run. I saw the trade the other day, and was considering picking it up.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 06:02 PM

Thanks. But I guess I'm wondering if she's like this in the Peter David run. I saw the trade the other day, and was considering picking it up.

Ahh, I see what you mean.

Well that was an entirely different person. I haven't read much of it, but it gets great reviews. Sorry, I can't help you much there.

KET

11-16-2006, 06:04 PM

How was the violence pointless? First, Kelly wrote the script, not Benitez.

And it's been WAY TOO OBVIOUS and pretty much established with issue #1 that THE ART has been driving this book, NOT the story-telling. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that comic books are COLLABORATIONS that are primarily VISUAL-oriented.

Second, it's an issue about meta-human pirates who are on a killing rampage.

No, it's about forgettable, cardboard villains with ultraviolent tendancies running into a main character who's STILL A CARDBOARD CUTOUT herself. Trailer park Barbie with an S-shield is still a NON-ENTITY whose only purpose seems to be PROPPING UP other concepts that DC thinks could be in some sort of sales trouble in the future.

As to the cheesecake, no doubt: Benitez is unapologetic. And it completely works. There were a number of visual jokes as well thoughout.

No, it's cheap and tawdry FAN SERVICE to horny young guys who keep can't get their greasy hands on MAXIM or STUFF yet. ;)

This is supposed to be SUPERGIRL, not THE NAUGHTY CHEERLEADER, and it's become pretty obvious that the current regime at DC can't figure out the difference.

And I've said it before, but the way Kelly writes puts a lot more pressure on the penciller....

...becazuse he's simply NOT WRITING anything of coherence. A third-rate rip-off of Christopher Nolan's film style isn't suddenly a display of writing prowess.

I thought Benitez did a great job.

Yeah, the big thick PORN STAR LIPS he pasted on Kara throughout this issue really sent a clear, classic 'heroic' message there.... :D

Shellhead

11-16-2006, 06:10 PM

You realize that in the majority of the world, as well as in the majority of the US, the age of consent is 16 or less.

43.17% of Americans live in the 13 states where the age of consent is at least 17. In addition, another 15.58% of Americans live in a state where there are two ages of consent, and at least one is 17 or higher. This is based on my analysis of the 2000 U.S. Census and the notorious Age of Consent site:

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

You are correct in saying that the age of consent is 16 or less in most of the world, but Supergirl is obviously portrayed as living in the United States. Btw, U.S. law specifies that Americans travelling abroad are still held to the age of consent in their U.S. state of residence, even if the legal age of consent is lower in the country that they are visiting. There is also a U.S. federal law (U.S. Code, Title 18, Chapter 117, SubSection 2423) with tricky wording that basically prohibits travelling with a minor to have sex with them in a state where it would be otherwise legal.

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 06:12 PM

Thanks. But I guess I'm wondering if she's like this in the Peter David run. I saw the trade the other day, and was considering picking it up.

That was the last Supergirl, Linda Danvers, who, despite being a devil-worshiper, was a much better Supergirl than Kara. I'd wholly endorse picking up David's Supergirl. Classic female heroics with a great cast, especially towards the end when he made use of Mary Marvel and the real Kara Zor-El.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 06:36 PM

And it's been WAY TOO OBVIOUS and pretty much established with issue #1 that THE ART has been driving this book, NOT the story-telling. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that comic books are COLLABORATIONS that are primarily VISUAL-oriented.

Umm ... yeah. That's what I've been doing.

How was the violence pointless? You didn't answer the question. If you are going to just toss around insults at other posters, you could at least find a way to answer the question posed in the meantime.

And I have talked about the importance of the art in light of Kelly's storytelling style. I have commented on the way the layout of the story is indicative of Kara's mental state, and her broken nature. I have commented on a lot of things.

The fact that you don't read them, and then choose to insult me doesn't impress me. You want to disagree, fine. We all have different tastes. But where the heck did I instult anyone in this thread?

No, it's about forgettable, cardboard villains with ultraviolent tendancies running into a main character who's STILL A CARDBOARD CUTOUT herself. Trailer park Barbie with an S-shield is still a NON-ENTITY whose only purpose seems to be PROPPING UP other concepts that DC thinks could be in some sort of sales trouble in the future.

Your view. Fine. You don't seem to have much to support your view, other than making declarations and assuming we will all agree with them. Your word does not recreate the Universe by fiat.

No, it's cheap and tawdry FAN SERVICE to horny young guys who keep can't get their greasy hands on MAXIM or STUFF yet. ;)

Again with the insults. You think that by attacking anyone who likes Benitez' work here, calling them horny young guys, that you will stigmatize the position.

Nice try. Wow, you are subtle. Like an anvil. Do you think that these rhetorical devices came to you, ex nihilo, and are somehow not completely obvious?

This is supposed to be SUPERGIRL, not THE NAUGHTY CHEERLEADER, and it's become pretty obvious that the current regime at DC can't figure out the difference.

It is Supergirl, and no, again trying to attach something supposedly dirty to the idea of the title will not deter. Nice try again.

...becazuse he's simply NOT WRITING anything of coherence. A third-rate rip-off of Christopher Nolan's film style isn't suddenly a display of writing prowess.

It's funny that you would mention Nolan. As if he is somehow innovative.

If you think it lacked coherence, explain where. Because many people had no problem whatsoever understanding not only what was happening, but *why* it was done that way.

Or did you means something else by coherence?

Yeah, the big thick PORN STAR LIPS he pasted on Kara throughout this issue really sent a clear, classic 'heroic' message there.... :D

Sorry it didn't meet your standards or expectations. You didn't like it. I did. Cheesecake doesn't bother me. Especially when someone is having as much fun with it, and doing it in as attractive a way as Benitez did here. If you feel differently, then that's a difference of opinion. The fact that you feel it necessary to insult people, and do try and diminish the validity of their views is quite telling, actually.

Also, Benitez managed to do a great job of catching Kelly's storytelling tiger, and being able to not only make each panel important, which is what Kelly does, but also handle so much of hte storytelling in the images.

My liking of Joe Kelly's Supergirl is the perfect example of why I cannot get into Silver Age comics. In almost all the SA comics I've read, they feel the constant need to remind you of stuff that happened two pages ago, to repeat things, to constantly have the character comment on what's happening on the page, etc.

Kelly, conversely, is willing to tell a story, do without captions, and let the dialogue and action and the static images combine to tell a unified story, and do it in a manner which uses the character's frame of mind to drive the direction of the narrative.

On, and btw, Kelly's style is far more reminiscent of either German Expressionist cinema of the 30's, or some of the more innovative directors of the Nouvelle Vague of the 50's-60's. Nolan is a fine director. But don't think that he has ever done anything even vaguley original.

And as for the person who mentioned Tarantino, you should realize that his whole shctick is that nothing he does is original. I like him, but he has made a living being up-front and honest about ripping off other movies, styles, etc. His movies are more comments on other movies than they are movies in and of themselves. It's meta-criticism and meta-fanboy-ism all wrapped up in an entertaining package.

Mia

11-16-2006, 06:36 PM

And it's been WAY TOO OBVIOUS and pretty much established with issue #1 that THE ART has been driving this book, NOT the story-telling. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that comic books are COLLABORATIONS that are primarily VISUAL-oriented.

No, it's about forgettable, cardboard villains with ultraviolent tendancies running into a main character who's STILL A CARDBOARD CUTOUT herself. Trailer park Barbie with an S-shield is still a NON-ENTITY whose only purpose seems to be PROPPING UP other concepts that DC thinks could be in some sort of sales trouble in the future.

No, it's cheap and tawdry FAN SERVICE to horny young guys who keep can't get their greasy hands on MAXIM or STUFF yet. ;)

This is supposed to be SUPERGIRL, not THE NAUGHTY CHEERLEADER, and it's become pretty obvious that the current regime at DC can't figure out the difference.

...becazuse he's simply NOT WRITING anything of coherence. A third-rate rip-off of Christopher Nolan's film style isn't suddenly a display of writing prowess.

Yeah, the big thick PORN STAR LIPS he pasted on Kara throughout this issue really sent a clear, classic 'heroic' message there.... :D

That's a gross generalisation isn't it? I'm not a 'horny boy' at all, and I actually like the characterisation of Kara and the storytelling . And if this is the first time you've notice the high sexiness quotient in comic books then I don't know what to say. But it's been around ever since I started collecting comic books in the late 80's.

Mia

11-16-2006, 06:39 PM

That was the last Supergirl, Linda Danvers, who, despite being a devil-worshiper, was a much better Supergirl than Kara. I'd wholly endorse picking up David's Supergirl. Classic female heroics with a great cast, especially towards the end when he made use of Mary Marvel and the real Kara Zor-El.

Thank you JZ. However the 'devil worshipping' part has turned me off. And no offense really (I love reading your stuff) but I think that I'll have to pass on on that one. I sort of get the impression that you and I don't like the same qualities when it comes to heroines!

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 06:40 PM

43.17% of Americans live in the 13 states where the age of consent is at least 17. In addition, another 15.58% of Americans live in a state where there are two ages of consent, and at least one is 17 or higher. This is based on my analysis of the 2000 U.S. Census and the notorious Age of Consent site:

She is 17, at least. This has been textually established. (actually, she's more like 50, but that's a different argument altogether)

Also, age of consent is tricky when one of the people ISN'T HUMAN!

Anyhow, as I said above, they play this angle for fun. I seriously doubt Kara will be hooking up with anyone any time soon. It's just a way of showing Kara tease people mercilessly, but also be able to laugh at herself, and goof around with Owen, mostly.

Young Avenger

11-16-2006, 06:47 PM

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 06:59 PM

I think more people would enjoy this book more if they didn't tie down this Kara to the silver age version. Personally, I don't want to read about a girl-scout she was in those silver age stories. If I wanted that I would read Superman.

Are you being ironic?

Anyway, Supergirl is DC's 8th best selling title overall, and third best selling monthly solo title, behind Green Lantern and Batman. So, I doubt Dan DiDio is too bothered by its sales.

We'll see how it continues.

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 07:02 PM

Thank you JZ. However the 'devil worshipping' part has turned me off. And no offense really (I love reading your stuff) but I think that I'll have to pass on on that one. I sort of get the impression that you and I don't like the same qualities when it comes to heroines!

I think you're right. I know you love the old pre-BOP Huntress stories, and she's definitely more along the lines of a "bad girl heroine," while I enjoy more iconic super heroines, like Pre-Crisis Supergirl and Wonder Woman. It had a more Seventies fun action style towards the end of PAD's run, and definitely felt like a Silver Age book.

Don't let the "devil worshiper" thing throw you off from at least checking it out, though. That's only how Linda was introduced. The bulk of the book deals with her becoming the "Earth Angel" after joining with the Matrix-Supergirl that Lex Luthor created. There was a lot of religious subtext in it that was primarily Linda's character conflict.

Kid Kamikaze10

11-16-2006, 07:06 PM

I think more people would enjoy this book more if they didn't tie down this Kara to the silver age version. Personally, I don't want to read about a girl-scout she was in those silver age stories. If I wanted that I would read Superman.

Many people hate these things:

The character (the minority of the haters compare her to the silver age verison. Most just plain hate her, or compare her to Linda, or any other DC heroine that deserved a title, which is my case as well).

The punk-a$$ boyfriends (they are all losers, except Nightwing, who definitely doesn't count).

The art

The punking of any guest-star

The terrible plots

The annoying style of story-telling

And the fact that she even has a title, let alone two.

Young Avenger

11-16-2006, 07:19 PM

Many people hate these things:

The character (the minority of the haters compare her to the silver age verison. Most just plain hate her, or compare her to Linda, or any other DC heroine that deserved a title, which is my case as well).

The punk-a$$ boyfriends (they are all losers, except Nightwing, who definitely doesn't count).

The art

The punking of any guest-star

The terrible plots

The annoying style of story-telling

And the fact that she even has a title, let alone two.

Punk-ass boyfriends? She doesn't have any yet. Boomer doesn't count since Kara thinks of him as a brother.

Not every guest star got punk'd. The JSA didn't get punk'd in the first issue. Batman didn't get punk'd in his appearances and Wonder Girl is Kara's only friend.

I'll give you the Kandor arc but everything else was enjoyable in IMO

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 07:22 PM

Most of the "punking" happened in Loeb's run, actually, where he had her fighting every hero she met, including most of the Outsiders. Kelly and Rucka only had her spat with Power Girl, so far.

AaronJ

11-16-2006, 07:29 PM

Most of the "punking" happened in Loeb's run, actually, where he had her fighting every hero she met, including most of the Outsiders. Kelly and Rucka only had her spat with Power Girl, so far.

Which was a manifestation of experience versus inexperience. Plus, I thought it was sort of funny that Powergirl finally ran into someone who is even more of a hot-head than she is.

But seriously, given their power levels, that was no different than Elaine shoving Jerry in the chest, yelling "Get OUT!" :)

Jack Zodiac

11-16-2006, 07:33 PM

Which was a manifestation of experience versus inexperience. Plus, I thought it was sort of funny that Powergirl finally ran into someone who is even more of a hot-head than she is.

But seriously, given their power levels, that was no different than Elaine shoving Jerry in the chest, yelling "Get OUT!" :)

Not the second one. The second one was a whole lot angrier, but to be fair, Karen started that one. And yes, if anyone else has the strength to make that kind of temper extremely dangerous, it's Kara. It's funny, Power Girl has about as much patience as a sixteen year old girl.

milly3cat

11-16-2006, 11:31 PM

I actually liked the art. It is the best part of the book... :cool:

saintsaucey

11-17-2006, 01:46 AM

It was a wank when Tarantino did it. And he's a half decent director.

Joe Kelly should stick to the basic stuff.

Don't diss on Tarintino man. Just cause you couldn't figure it out doesn't mean everyone was lost. I read it five minutes before bed and I still understood what the hell was happening. Im no doctorate or anything but I think you are all complaining about the writing style just to have something else to complain about.

As for the character. Im sorry but how old are you guys. I'm twenty-six. I know plenty of girls in the real world who are seventeen and act this way around guys my age. ()saddly not to me but bygones) I'm not saying girls are sluts, but they have something we so desperately want and they know that and they use it to their advantage. and as for the outfit. look around. thats how girls dress. doesn't make it right or decent but its true none the less.

Mia

11-17-2006, 02:55 AM

Quick question. It's been awhile since I've read the Outsiders. But was all the swearing in the book just Kelly spoofing 'The Outsiders'. Or is the way he writes. I don't remember all that colourful language when I read his JLA stuff.

AaronJ

11-17-2006, 03:05 AM

I think it was mostly spoofing. Although, it's not like Winick necessarily writes like that all the time.

Certainly, it is a more "adult" title, what with all the sex, drunkenness, and everything else. :) And, cursing is not unheard of.

Really, the only times Kara swore were when she was putting on an act "breaking" Rex's "leg", and then in the meeting, when Grace had gone off about how Kara was a Princess and like 5 years old.

So, the first time she is trying to act like a bad guy, and the second she was probably trying to overcome this "Princess" image.

Otherwise, it was just a couple incidents of the pirates swearing.

Jack Zodiac

11-17-2006, 01:12 PM

As for the character. Im sorry but how old are you guys. I'm twenty-six. I know plenty of girls in the real world who are seventeen and act this way around guys my age. ()saddly not to me but bygones) I'm not saying girls are sluts, but they have something we so desperately want and they know that and they use it to their advantage. and as for the outfit. look around. thats how girls dress. doesn't make it right or decent but its true none the less.

That's fantastic... for immature teenyboppers trying to look like jailbait. I prefer a more mature, responsible, or at the very least individual superheroine. The last person in the world I'd wanna' see acting like Supergirl is Wonder Woman, but right after her, the last person in the world I'd wanna' see acting like Supergirl is Supergirl. Which is why I dropped the book.

Jack Zodiac

11-17-2006, 01:16 PM

I don't remember all that colourful language when I read his JLA stuff.

Why would Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the rest spew curse words for the sake of sounding cool? In JLA, Kelly was writing the top of the ladder in superheroes. Mature superfolks who've been at this for decades. In Supergirl's case, it sounds like she's trying to fit in with a group who's much more adult than she is, so she's adapting by using a few vulgarities here and there to seem more adult. Pathetic, if you ask me, but hey, go with the flow, right?

Mia

11-18-2006, 07:24 AM

Actually I wasn't really complaining about Kara persay. I just meant the over all rough language that was used.

By the way I almost choked when Kara told Owen-in refrence to Nightwing, "It takes a real man to work a domino mask". It's the kind of phrase I'd expect from Catwoman or Emma Frost.

That's one of the things I love about Kara. Sometimes she acts and behaves like a 40 year old rippened woman. At other times she's like a regular 17 year old girl.

Kid Kyoto

11-18-2006, 07:36 AM

That was the last Supergirl, Linda Danvers, who, despite being a devil-worshiper, was a much better Supergirl than Kara. I'd wholly endorse picking up David's Supergirl. Classic female heroics with a great cast, especially towards the end when he made use of Mary Marvel and the real Kara Zor-El.

That last story line with a pre-crisis Kara was a lot of fun, it's a funny parody of the silver age but also a good commentary on her character. Unfortunately the last bit made little sense to me since I had no idea who the villains were, but in all pretty good.

Alex Dragon

11-18-2006, 08:01 AM

I usually don't read SUPERGIRL but every now and then I pick up an issue depending on who's drawing it (I don't like Churchell's art) to get a general sense of what the character's up to. Needless to say I really had know idea what was going on but not being a regular reader I kinda expect that.

What I wanted to ask you guys/gals is do you think comics need to get back to a more obvious and universal way of portraying flashback sequences/panels? There was a time when it was very obvious a flashback was being told because the panel would be drawn in a "bubble' or "rounded edge" panel. Now it's sometimes subtle coloring or slightly out of focus or on a black page background or sometimes nothing at all that I can really spot. These days sometimes I'll be reading a story and get 2 or 3 panels into the flashback before I realize that it's supposed to be a flashback. It's slightly annoying. I've been reading comics for quite a while and have this happen, I can imagine someone who hasn't getting confused fairly easily.

What do you think?

AaronJ

11-18-2006, 11:19 AM

What do you think?

I think that it's not a problem. In Supergirl, this is the way that Kelly writes, so anyone who has been reading won't have a problem.

As to titles in general, I think it needs to be left up to the creator. I hear all sorts of complaints from people where they say "THis took two minutes to read!" Well, some books take longer than that, since you have to work at it to some degree.

I read Astonishing X-Men, but no other X-titles, and only one other Marvel title. This last issue of ASM was awesome. But it took me a few times reading it, and also coming on-line to completely understand what happened. The reason I was a little slow is because I am not that familiar with the characters' histories.

I think that different books are bound to work differently. And certainly, some things can be done poorly. But I don't see a reason to have some sort of general, across-the-board way of putting together comics.

Bored at 3:00AM

11-18-2006, 11:39 AM

Y'know, I generally don't like Joe Kelly's writing. Action Comics #775 is just purile nonsense in my view.

I also thought Loeb's brief run was a creative trainwreck.

However, I do like where they're going with this new version of Supergirl, who is, in many ways a merger of the Silver Age version with Kru-El, Superman's evil cousin. Making Zor-El into Jor-El's Cain & Abel-style anchenemy was a nice twist on the premise. The flashbacks with Kara being forced to kill her own mother were particularly harsh.

She's not the ray of hope her cousin is, she's got a dark past, but she's trying to change. I can see how that might resonate with a lot of readers. And Kelly's actually giving the girl some personality to boot.

I can handle the cheesecake, that kind of stuff never bothers me. It's superhero comics. Half the fun is oogling all the well-built bodies in skintight outfits pounding the stuffing out of each other. Always has been, always will be.

That said, I'm still not sold yet. The writing isn't exactly stellar, but it is raw. Between this and the delightfully goofy Superman/Batman Annual he just did, Kelly seems to have cranked things up a notch and started having a little more fun. My head says I shouldn't like this book, but, dammit, I keep reading each new issue so it's hooked me on some level.

Jack Zodiac

11-18-2006, 12:12 PM

I liked his Superman/Batman Annual because it was a throwback to what I came to love Joe's writing, when he was making Deadpool one of the only Marvel books I could read in the mid to late Nineties. His JLA was just as great, because he made excellent use of Plastic Man in the cast as a foil for the ever-too-serious League and wrote some great superhero stories. The only time I started to dislike the book was towards the end of the "Obsidian Age" arc, and the shortly followed arc about the white supremacists villain group was just God awful.

This book I can't like for many reasons, most of which don't even have to do directly with Kelly's writing, but many of which do. Like his dialogue, his improper use of flow of consciousness, and his immediate characterization of Kara, which is a byproduct of his pacing and ignoring the most prominent revelation from the arc before. I feel bad because of the circumstances he found the book in, but I can't blame that any more than I can blame it on why The Flash has sucked for the past six months.

He just can't hook me. And I skimmed this issue when I went to my store again yesterday, and even if Kelly's writing were more up to snuff, the art would be a huge turnoff for me. Cheesecake's one thing (for instance, I can stand Benes' work), but this issue's artist was horrible. It looked like he was drawing a parody Supergirl for MAD Magazine. On the other hand, pretty much every character in the book that didn't have ovaries looked fine.

Ontir

11-18-2006, 02:59 PM

Jack Zodiac

11-18-2006, 05:29 PM

Well, ever since the end of Loeb's run, they've been hitting the angle of Kara's father being a !@#$% nutjob, and when it looked like that story was gonna' make some headway after the arc in Kandor where she finds out Argo City is still out there, the whole plot is dropped, with the exception of the woefully overused flashbacks.

drwho

11-18-2006, 05:33 PM

I havent read since second issue of one yr later. Has this book improved enough to give it a second look over?

Jack Zodiac

11-18-2006, 05:37 PM

It depends. If you didn't like Loeb's run because it was looking like Kara was going to be like her cousin, then you might like the direction of the book. If you thought Kara turning out like Clark would've been a good thing, you might not like the direction it's taken.

Bored at 3:00AM

11-18-2006, 09:40 PM

I don't have the new issue; but even having really enjoyed the issues on their own, I have to ask: "What the hell's going on in this book?!?" PLUNK - we're in Kandor, then at the point where we should get some sort of resolution - Plunk - she's adopting a secret I.D., and going all "90210" for a few pages, then its on to something new. This book COULD and SHOULD be one of the most interesting titles going. Instead, it's curious.

What's going on is that the book changed writers three times in a span of a few months. And each of these writers had a very different take on things. I can't blame Kelly for dumping the Kandor angle so quickly. It wasn't his story and he didn't know what to do with it, so he just moved on to something he was interested in. Given his take on Supergirl as this restless teenager trying to "find herself", it sorta works.

Like I said, the book is a creative trainwreck, but I'm enjoying seeing Kelly tapdance around trying to keep things going. The end result may end up giving us an interesting new female character who isn't what readers expect...or want, mind you, but I think sales have been holding relatively strong.

SKETCHSANCHEZ

11-18-2006, 11:02 PM

I don't have the new issue; but even having really enjoyed the issues on their own, I have to ask: "What the hell's going on in this book?!?" PLUNK - we're in Kandor, then at the point where we should get some sort of resolution - Plunk - she's adopting a secret I.D., and going all "90210" for a few pages, then its on to something new. This book COULD and SHOULD be one of the most interesting titles going. Instead, it's curious.

It's funny that in this issue Joe had Nightwing, in a way, try to explain all of that (minus the kandor stuff which he wouldnt know about anyway)

"Heres what I think....I think you tried to quit the super-thing. Didnt work. I think you tried the secret identity thing. Not happening. Now you're trying the team thing, my team...hoping to find a place..."

I finally got my comics today so I read the issue and I really liked it. Finding out that Kara's father made her kill her mother was shocking to say the least.

I also liked that, apparently, Clark got her attention somehow and all she could say was "Not now Kal, Im not ready to talk to you yet".

I think this book is starting to get it's footing, finally.

Unfortunatly, thats getting put on hold for the next issue which, while i'm looking forward to the yummy Amanda Conner art, is pretty annoying.

AaronJ

11-19-2006, 03:29 AM

Unfortunatly, thats getting put on hold for the next issue which, while i'm looking forward to the yummy Amanda Conner art, is pretty annoying.

Yes it is. But I can live with (to say the least) a Gray and Palmiotti and Conner fill-in issue.

If you are going to have a fill-in, that's the way to do it. Look at Wonder Woman: no fill-in, no issue for months and months.

Sure, I'd rather see Kelly's story keep going, but this should at least be entertaining. At least it is coming out.

Bored at 3:00AM

11-19-2006, 10:02 AM

Yeah, I'll never complain about Amanda Conner doing Supergirl. I just re-read The Pro a couple days ago. She's one of the best new comers I've seen in years.

Alex A Sanchez

11-26-2006, 02:01 PM

is what made me drop the book.

Then you never got a chance to see the room full of high school girls stripped down to their underwear in issue 10- I'm sure you would have looooved that.

It strikes me as strange that the most frequent poster in this thread doesn't even read the book anymore. You have issues buddy: This isn't the Supergirl book you want. Get over it.

Most of us like what we've been reading- Kelly's stories have been good so far and I am anticipating what he is working towards. The art is simply fantastic- Benitez knocked this one out of the park. I wouldn't mind if the penciling chores switched every two months between Benitez and Churchill- the art would consistently be top notch and on time.

The only other DCU books I currently read are the new Justice League, Superman, ASSuperman, and Green Lantern: can someone explain who Powerboy is? The ending was a little too random when I don't know who he is (yes, this is a fault of Kelly's- he's not perfect).

Young Avenger

11-26-2006, 02:04 PM

can someone explain who Powerboy is? The ending was a little too random when I don't know who he is (yes, this is a fault of Kelly's- he's not perfect).

Powerboy is a brand new character. He was created by Johns as a member of the Teen Titans during the missing year.

Bry

11-26-2006, 06:45 PM

He's not entirely new, Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earth I believe he was the son of Power Girl from an alternate universe or something like that you can Wiki it to double check to be sure but if I remember correctly I think that's he's been around before.

Jack Zodiac

11-26-2006, 08:58 PM

Then you never got a chance to see the room full of high school girls stripped down to their underwear in issue 10- I'm sure you would have looooved that.

It strikes me as strange that the most frequent poster in this thread doesn't even read the book anymore. You have issues buddy: This isn't the Supergirl book you want. Get over it.

Yeah, because y'know what an interesting discussion is? Everyone having the same opinion about a title. I'd say, if it weren't for me and a few others continuing discussion about the direction of the title, this thread wouldn't be any longer than a page. Which says something about how interested in the book most people really are. It's one of DC's better-selling monthlies, and the only time it's brought up is when it's debated over its direction. I wonder why it's selling so well.

The only other DCU books I currently read are the new Justice League, Superman, ASSuperman, and Green Lantern: can someone explain who Powerboy is? The ending was a little too random when I don't know who he is (yes, this is a fault of Kelly's- he's not perfect).

The only other place we've seen Power Boy is in Teen Titans and 52. In Teen Titans we learn that he and his sister(?), Lil' Barda, were members during the missing year, and in 52 we see him in action against the new Infinity Inc. He's, apparently, a teenaged New God, since he and Barda use a Mother Box.