Civil War #5 Spoilers & Review [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Sharcque

11-15-2006, 04:59 AM

Hope it's ok to do this now. It is the 15th.....

got my copy last night

First off I'll just say that this was a very quick read. too quick...

Now, on to the story:

It starts off with Johnny & Sue on the run from SHIELD agents, but they escape.

next scene shows Nighthawk & Stature signing up with the Pro-Registration side. They're waiting on Tony Stark to greet them, but he's nowhere to be found because he's having his face off with Peter. He tells Pete to stop acting like a luncatic. Pete tells him he's leaving the Avengers. he says he can't handle locking heroes away in the Negative Zone, and he also is pissed about the Clor incident. Tony tries to sway him back to his side. Peter tells him to get out of his way, he's leaving now! Stark says, "What about May? What about Mary Jane?". The next panel has Iron Man getting knocked thru a wall. Awesome! Pete tries to escape thru glass, but can't b/c it's reinforced. Some SHIELD agents show up, and they all shoot at Pete. He appears to dodge all the bullets, but he gets cut pretty badly up by the resulting breaking glass that the bullets hit. He escapes thru the now broken window. SHIELD sends their new Thunderbolts after him, but they mention that they really wanted to save them for the big, final battle. Jester and Jack-O-Lantern catch up to him in the sewers and give him a pretty bad ass whipping. Pete was already very badly beaten & bloody b/c of the glass, so he didn't put up much of a fight. Right when it looks like the T-bolts may kill him, they're told by SHIELD to lay off or else it's 5000 volts for them. A red laser is shown to be coming out of Jack O lanterns head, and the next page has his head getting blown off. Jester also takes a bullet in the head. it's Punisher to the rescue. He takes Pete with him.

next it shows Johnny & Sue in disguises with black hair and acting as a married couple. Ewww...anyway, they go to Cap's new hideout. There're lots of heroes sitting around. Cap is still all screwed up physically. They talk about their "assignments". Punisher shows up carrying Pete, and shouts that Pete needs a medic. Jane Foster goes to help. there are questions about Spidey, but Frank explains about Spidey switching sides. There's a quick argument about if the Anti side is going to let Punisher be with them. He says that it was him in the ski mask, covering their asses lately (so now we know). Punisher says that he can get them into the Baxter building (I guess to try a rescue attempt on the heroes in 42, by going thru the Negative Zone portal that's there?). Tigra is shown off hiding, using a cell phone.....double agent?

Final scene shows DD in cuffs being led into a SHIELD cruiser in Hell's Kitchen. I think that this is Iron Fist. Reed & She-Hulk are there. Reed is saying he wishes he'd never have gotten involved. She Hulk says they're doing hte right thing. DD arrives at Ryker's Island, and is being led by Tony to a 42 portal that they have there. Tony is trying to get DD to "see the light". he talks about the 50 state initiative: "Fifty super-teams, spread all over 50 states, each one licsensed and accountable to the taxpayer. A federal Force from Coast to Coast". DD won't talk. A SHIELD guard says he didn't talk the entire time that they had him, except when he gave them a silver dollar that was under his tongue and told them to give it to Tony b/c he was saving it for him (that's why I think it's Iron Fist, b/c he ws flipping that dollar i issue 1). Tony says he doesn't understand. DD: "Guess that's thirty-one pieces youguot now, huh? Sleep well...Judas."

end.

Agent Helix

11-15-2006, 06:23 AM

I called it.

I so called it.

Xanrn

11-15-2006, 06:33 AM

Oh for cying out loud, I was expecting atleast a decent fight between Spidey and pro-reg, not a 2 page arse kicking.

Blackcat

11-15-2006, 06:35 AM

So how much out of 10 would you give #5?

Sharcque

11-15-2006, 07:22 AM

So how much out of 10 would you give #5?

5..........

Effect

11-15-2006, 07:24 AM

Oh for cying out loud, I was expecting atleast a decent fight between Spidey and pro-reg, not a 2 page arse kicking.

That's what Amazing Spider-man #536 is for. :)

FrogMan

11-15-2006, 07:26 AM

What heroes do they show at the Anti-reg headquarters? Any obscure goodies we should know about?

Clint Barton

11-15-2006, 07:26 AM

I just finished reading it. I give it a 7. After the debacle which was issue 4, I had essentially given up on the story being good. This issue brought back my faith in this "Big Event." I'm actually fairly convinced that Civil War repurcussions will not be netconned.

Violently Apathetic

11-15-2006, 07:37 AM

Did we ever even find out the ID of this Jack O Lantern?

Sean Walsh

11-15-2006, 07:56 AM

Did we ever even find out the ID of this Jack O Lantern?

I'll assume it's the regular/generic one, since Mad Jack (Mysterio's sister, IIRC) still gets some (not much but still) usage in the Spidey books.

Sean Walsh

11-15-2006, 07:56 AM

What heroes do they show at the Anti-reg headquarters? Any obscure goodies we should know about?

I heard someone (Augie over at the Pipeline CBR forum) say Ultra Girl actually gets a line of dialogue, and that a couple others (at the anti-reg meeting I presume) are fairly obscure folks.

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 09:02 AM

With Cassie over at the Pro-side and Wiccian in Jail, could this be the end of the Young Avengers ? :(

The Real Rogue

11-15-2006, 09:06 AM

With Cassie over at the Pro-side and Wiccian in Jail, could this be the end of the Young Avengers ? :(

They are not solitated in November, December, January and February. It kindo makes you wonder if this series will continue at all!!!!

JonBidinger

11-15-2006, 09:17 AM

Young Avengers are slated to start in March-ish. Wiccan has already been freed. Battle of Yancy Street.

Sharcque

11-15-2006, 09:37 AM

What heroes do they show at the Anti-reg headquarters? Any obscure goodies we should know about?
Don't have it available right now but Ultra Girl is there!

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 09:38 AM

Young Avengers are slated to start in March-ish. Wiccan has already been freed. Battle of Yancy Street.

Even if that happen and Wiccan freed we still have this one little switch from Cassie could that be enough for her to be kicked out of the team ? :(

Soundrave

11-15-2006, 09:42 AM

I'll assume it's the regular/generic one, since Mad Jack (Mysterio's sister, IIRC) still gets some (not much but still) usage in the Spidey books.

Cousin Maguire Beck, IIRC.

Effect

11-15-2006, 09:42 AM

That is if the other members don't end up registered as well. You can't assume they'll stay anti for good or that they will end up disliking Cass or not wanting to be friends with her.

Polarity

11-15-2006, 09:55 AM

I heard someone (Augie over at the Pipeline CBR forum) say Ultra Girl actually gets a line of dialogue, and that a couple others (at the anti-reg meeting I presume) are fairly obscure folks.

Who is Ultra Girl?

sookibong

11-15-2006, 10:20 AM

theardri

11-15-2006, 10:26 AM

What the hell? I had been enjoying CW up until this totally useless issue. This should've been the one where things really start to pick up, but instead we got what we already knew and nothing else. Plus a lame way to equivocate the Pro and Anti sides. A big, sad disappointment for me :(

Well IF they had not solicited the alternative cover in preiviews, and IF it was on time, it might (hah) have made more of an impact. But now it was as predicted. The Editors need to walk the plank!

Rollo_Tomasi

11-15-2006, 10:29 AM

the whole thing with Tigra and the cell phone is interesting, because she is shown on the cover of Black Panther #24 alongside Cap, BP, Storm, and Falcon...

sookibong

11-15-2006, 10:37 AM

Well IF they had not solicited the alternative cover in preiviews, and IF it was on time, it might (hah) have made more of an impact. But now it was as predicted. The Editors need to walk the plank!

But how about that preview? "Featuring Villains Villains Villains! The evildoers make their presence felt in a new and shocking way!" You mean two D-list villains beat the crap out of Spider-Man. Wow. And then people talk for the rest of the issue. And did we really need that foreshadowing of the "final battle." Ugh I've never been angrier.

MaxofSteel

11-15-2006, 10:46 AM

What the hell? I had been enjoying CW up until this totally useless issue. This should've been the one where things really start to pick up, but instead we got what we already knew and nothing else. Plus a lame way to equivocate the Pro and Anti sides. A big, sad disappointment for me :(

We fan-folk tend to spoilerize all upcomming issues for ourselves, which is why I figure we tend to end up disappointed from time to time.

Non-readers, who don't speculate and theorize, end up getting all the fun surprises.

It'd be sweet if the higher-ups catered more to us hardcore fans. That way we'd get comics on a speedier schedule, and maybe a few plot twists or two.

That's my theory anyway.

Rollo_Tomasi

11-15-2006, 10:46 AM

solicits are always misleading, wrong, or vague just like covers. This issue is a perfect example of both.

sookibong

11-15-2006, 10:57 AM

solicits are always misleading, wrong, or vague just like covers. This issue is a perfect example of both.

You're right of course. But even with that said the issue still felt rather underwhelming. As if there are 5 more issues to come or something. We shouldn't be experiencing such a slow down at this point. Captain America appears once only to be all "I'm thinking..."?

misterorange

11-15-2006, 11:02 AM

I like that part with DD at the end. Perhaps Cap knows he is being ratted out and Cap and DD come up with a plan. Since DD will be held in a room fit for him it should be easy for him to get out since he isnt DD. Just was a thought i had while eating Subway and reading :p

Rollo_Tomasi

11-15-2006, 11:03 AM

I am not familiar with the Bible, is there any signifigance to the 31 silver pieces thing?

Effect

11-15-2006, 11:11 AM

I am not familiar with the Bible, is there any signifigance to the 31 silver pieces thing?

I believe it references that Judas sold out Jesus for 30 silver peices or something similar to that. Not certain since I don't remember that much about the story, been a long time.

MongoSlade

11-15-2006, 11:13 AM

I believe it references that Judas sold out Jesus for 30 silver peices or something similar to that.
We have a winner.

sookibong

11-15-2006, 11:13 AM

I am not familiar with the Bible, is there any signifigance to the 31 silver pieces thing?

In Greek mythology, Charon would charge the dead to gain passage to the underworld. It was customary to put a coin under the tongue of a dead body so that their spirit could pay the fee.

Jmacq1

11-15-2006, 11:15 AM

I am not familiar with the Bible, is there any signifigance to the 31 silver pieces thing?

Judas Iscariot, the Disciple that betrayed Jesus to the Romans, was paid 30 pieces of silver for doing so by Jesus' enemies. And his name has become synonymous with "traitor".

So basically "Daredevil" is calling Iron Man the worst kind of traitor.

I must say I really hope this whole "50 teams in 50 states" thing isn't the "revelation" that was supposed to start proving that the Pro-Side's tactics were/are necessary and warranted (as hinted at by Mr. Brevoort and Mr. Jenkins). Considering most people figured out what the "Fifty States Initiative" meant just from the name, it's not exactly new information.

If they're going to have any success at all at changing people's minds, the writers are going to have to come up with a better justification for the Pro-Reg side than that.

sookibong

11-15-2006, 11:19 AM

Hehe and what that guy said ^

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 11:20 AM

What was the Tigra thing ? :confused:

Rollo_Tomasi

11-15-2006, 11:26 AM

She (or rather her arm) was seen holding a cell phone in the shadows during the whole Anti-Reg scene in their new hideout.

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 11:32 AM

She (or rather her arm) was seen holding a cell phone in the shadows during the whole Anti-Reg scene in their new hideout.
Then that means that they're screwed or it somewhat does question her loyalities ? :confused:

Nevets F

11-15-2006, 11:35 AM

I think this issue was great. It may not have had as many "big moments" as number 4, but it was still really good.

unkiedev

11-15-2006, 11:35 AM

I hope Tigra was just taking a picture to show someone later, as I'd have a hard time swallowing that Nick Fury's ulta secret undetectable hidden base is not blocked to cell phone signals.

Then again, what do I know, I ain't no cell phone tech guy.

-I thought it was a fine issue, though it didn't have the punch after some of the others. What punch it did have is slow comming after a month and a halves wait.

When's the next one? Do we get on in December?

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 11:44 AM

When's the next one? Do we get on in December?

Yes, hopefully we get the next one in December. :(

Mike Marino

11-15-2006, 11:52 AM

Wasn't Tigra and Wonderman with the Pro-Reg earlier in the series? When did they change sides? Did this happen in a peripheral comic? I haven't been reading much of CW outside of CW itself. I feel like having minor characters jumping sides is pretty interesting. I would totally read more about that.

Regardless, I enjoyed the issue, besides the comments eluding to a final battle, I thought it was pretty good.

BigDuke

11-15-2006, 11:54 AM

I must say I really hope this whole "50 teams in 50 states" thing isn't the "revelation" that was supposed to start proving that the Pro-Side's tactics were/are necessary and warranted (as hinted at by Mr. Brevoort and Mr. Jenkins). Considering most people figured out what the "Fifty States Initiative" meant just from the name, it's not exactly new information.

Who would you have to cross to be the Superhero assigned to North Dakota or Idaho? Or would that be the job for ... the new guy.

"Welcome to Montana, Platypus Boy"

Thursaiz

11-15-2006, 12:01 PM

She (or rather her arm) was seen holding a cell phone in the shadows during the whole Anti-Reg scene in their new hideout.

I hope that with all of the fancy technology that Tony Stark has, they could provide their spies with a little easier way to report in than an average cellular phone...

I can't wait to get this issue. Only three more hours...

Effect

11-15-2006, 12:01 PM

Who would you have to cross to be the Superhero assigned to North Dakota or Idaho? Or would that be the job for ... the new guy.

"Welcome to Montana, Platypus Boy"

haha. Seriously though I think those areas would most likely be areas for inexperienced heroes or even perhaps training areas or those with less then usefull powers but those that still want to put them to good use. The problem with that is if you go in that direction then villians will hide out in that area.

Mike Marino

11-15-2006, 12:04 PM

haha. Seriously though I think those areas would most likely be areas for inexperienced heroes or even perhaps training areas or those with less then usefull powers but those that still want to put them to good use. The problem with that is if you go in that direction then villians will hide out in that area.

Why even make super hero teams at all from existing heroes. Doesn't Stark mention that they are "Making" new heroes? Can't he just send an army of clones to each state?

Personally, I like the idea of really crappy teams battling A-list villians in Montana.

anthony!

11-15-2006, 12:11 PM

A pretty weak issue if you ask me. It all feels so disjointed and thin...like the main series is just a sequences of scenes that add up to a summary of Civil War. I really do think that if you want the full substantive story with all the intrigue, emotion and explanations you must read at least the tie-ins with Amazing Spider-man, Frontline, New Avengers, Black Panther, Fantastic Four, Iron Man and possibly lesser titles like Ms. Marvel.

Frankly they ought to experiment with collecting the entire crossover in order of events...ie Civil War #1, Amazing Spider-Man #539, or whatever...as opposed to collecting each series individually. It's basically impossible to read Civil War as one continuous epic narrative.

"Quiet, Cage. I'm thinking." Ugh.

unkiedev

11-15-2006, 12:18 PM

This hadn't occured to me:

WHERE on tigra's costume does she keep a cell phone?

:p

4th Summers Brother

11-15-2006, 12:22 PM

Who would you have to cross to be the Superhero assigned to North Dakota or Idaho? Or would that be the job for ... the new guy.

"Welcome to Montana, Platypus Boy"

Hey! I live in North Dakota!

But unfortunately, I agree with what you're saying.:)

Sparda

11-15-2006, 12:31 PM

What the hell? I had been enjoying CW up until this totally useless issue. This should've been the one where things really start to pick up, but instead we got what we already knew and nothing else. Plus a lame way to equivocate the Pro and Anti sides. A big, sad disappointment for me :(
I'll second you on that one. It was quite dissapointing and a so so issue. I expected spidey to fight a long grueling fight with the new thunderbolts but he got beat pretty quickly.

The plus side is the punisher though.

Effect

11-15-2006, 12:32 PM

Exactly. I said the same thing over at Newsarama. It really does seem like the main title is just an overview of the story that is really being told in titles such as Amazing Spider-man, Fanastic Four, New Avengers, Heroes for Hire, etc. The main title is only really good for the main battles and that's it I think.

MakeshiftHero

11-15-2006, 12:37 PM

Masamune

11-15-2006, 12:52 PM

Anyone else look closely at Tigra's cell phone, it has "STARK" written on the top of it. So yeah I thinks she's a double super secret agent.

And I would also agree whith whoever said that DD is still Iron Fist, and that they would put him in some kind of room where it's impossible to make a sound so it won't effect Iron Fist and he'll just punch through and start a prision break and take it from there.

The only cool shocker of this issue was the ass kicking SM got and then when Jester and Jack took a bullet to their heads.

Anyone think they're dead?

Yeah, they're probably dead. Getting shot in the head will do that to you. But this is a comic, you never know. ;)

I thought the issue was okay. I didn't have high expectations for it, so I wasn't hugely disappointed. Although I love the (possible) implication that DD/Iron Fist is really a "sleeper agent" meant to infiltrate the Neg Zone prison. And bringing in the Punisher is cool, too.

Agent Helix

11-15-2006, 12:55 PM

Jester and Jack getting killed isn't a shock at all. They had "DEAD" written all over them in issue 4.

Iron Syndicate

11-15-2006, 01:02 PM

misterorange

11-15-2006, 01:07 PM

This was a quick read, which it means it wasn't horrible, but it have it's fair share of problems. Mostly in the writing, there were some truly horrible lines in there:

Reed: "My darling Sue" - who talks like that? Seriously, what is this - the 40's?

Punisher: "Who do you think has been following you around in a ski mask..." - that's just the lamest reveal ever. I was getting real interested in who the ski mask guy was in #4, and I'm not pissed by the fact that it's Punisher, but it's just - except for Civil War #4, I've not seen him ONCE, so how exactly has he been "covering their asses"?

Daredevil - Why don't they take him out of his costume? Or at least unmask him? It just seems kinda stupid to me...

Thunderbolts - Are they keeping them in a crate? Seriously, it just seems wrong.

42 Portal - The portal had "42" in big white numbers on it. That's just retarted, like we couldn't figure out what the giant portal was by ourselves...

Probably the weakest issue of Civil War so far...
Im not sure on other points but i think in DD case is a show of dignity to let them atleast keep there costume, but that could be a bad thing to we shall see.

TheCrow13

11-15-2006, 01:19 PM

Everyone refur to that pages where the anti-reg meeting is taking place. Daredevil is there.....So one of the daredevils is still around.....

Dark Traveller

11-15-2006, 01:21 PM

This hadn't occured to me:

WHERE on tigra's costume does she keep a cell phone?

:p
The wonders of personal hygiene. :eek: ;)

CaptainCanada

11-15-2006, 01:22 PM

Reed: "My darling Sue" - who talks like that? Seriously, what is this - the 40's?
But, as the dialogue constantly tells us, the American people don't want to live in the 1940s!:D

A good issue, although mostly transitional stuff.

Director Hill: "Quick, send the two least-iconic members of the new Thunderbolts after Spidey!"

The opening panel with Johnny and Sue is just werid. Johnny and Sue are front-to-front, flying diagonally up, and Sue's costume is ripped in several places, her upper body arched away from Johnny. Taken by itself, it might just be a weird panel, but given what happens later with their secret IDs, the cumulative effect is to suggest that it's not just genetic coincidence that both Reed and Sue's kids are blond. Millar has a rather sick sense of humour.

NMoline

11-15-2006, 01:24 PM

Everyone refur to that pages where the anti-reg meeting is taking place. Daredevil is there.....So one of the daredevils is still around.....
Exactly! The DD that was arrested is clearly going to be Iron Fist while the DD at the meetings is Murdock! A lot of people have already called this but I am assuming Iron Fist let himself get arrested and it is all a master plan by Cap to infiltrate the prison.

Also, what does everyone think is Sue's Pressing Assignment and Hulkling's big job in Arizona? The only thing that ever happens in Arizona usually involves the real Hulk so who knows.

Dark Traveller

11-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Passing thought. could Ironman's suit be gaining some form of emergent intelligence and starting to control him in some way?

CaptainCanada

11-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Also, what does everyone think is Sue's Pressing Assignment and Hulkling's big job in Arizona? The only thing that ever happens in Arizona usually involves the real Hulk so who knows.
I don't know about Hulkling, but I assume Sue is headed under the sea.

Thursaiz

11-15-2006, 01:29 PM

Sue's assignment is probably to go and find Namor. Isn't the cover of Civil War #6 featuring the two of them?

CaptainCanada

11-15-2006, 01:31 PM

Sue's assignment is probably to go and find Namor. Isn't the cover of Civil War #6 featuring the two of them?
Variant cover, I believe, but that's my guess for where she's going to. In the most recent Black Panther, Namor and T'Challa agreed to form an international alliance of superpowered states to combat registration.

TheCrow13

11-15-2006, 01:33 PM

Many times has marvel said "all you have to read is civil war." If they didnt set up the story of namor attacking in civil war 5, how are they gunna jump into it inn 6? I belive it says with a war with namor unavoidable or somethingl ike that. Anyone get what im saying?

Iron Syndicate

11-15-2006, 01:39 PM

Everyone refur to that pages where the anti-reg meeting is taking place. Daredevil is there.....So one of the daredevils is still around.....

I believe the DD arrest simply takes place after the meeting, so it could still be just one DD...

TheCrow13

11-15-2006, 01:41 PM

Where is the current Matt murdock? Wasnt he suposed to come back to USA soon?

jaxcs

11-15-2006, 01:44 PM

why is it that everyone can find Cap's hiding place except for Tony?

Michael P

11-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Even if that happen and Wiccan freed we still have this one little switch from Cassie could that be enough for her to be kicked out of the team ? :(
Depends on where the team as a whole ends up after Civil War. They may all register, the Act may be repealed or struck down, the horse might learn to talk.

Michael P

11-15-2006, 01:51 PM

Who would you have to cross to be the Superhero assigned to North Dakota or Idaho? Or would that be the job for ... the new guy.

"Welcome to Montana, Platypus Boy"
"Blowfish Avenger gets New Rochelle."

Iron Syndicate

11-15-2006, 01:52 PM

Where is the current Matt murdock? Wasnt he suposed to come back to USA soon?

As of the current DD he's still trolloping around europe...

Michael P

11-15-2006, 01:53 PM

Exactly! The DD that was arrested is clearly going to be Iron Fist while the DD at the meetings is Murdock! A lot of people have already called this but I am assuming Iron Fist let himself get arrested and it is all a master plan by Cap to infiltrate the prison.
That would add an interesting double allusion to DD giving Tony the coin (paying the ferryman for bringing him into Hell).

XPac

11-15-2006, 01:54 PM

why is it that everyone can find Cap's hiding place except for Tony?

I asked that on the Tom Breevort thread once, and he answered something to the effect of Cap usually finding you rather than the other way around.

Though Punisher was able to do it all by his lonesome. I'm assuming if Tigra is a plant, Tony NOW can find it too. But we'll see. Maybe Tigra is a plant but not for Tony (maybe he works for Fury or Panther or something).

jade_nova

11-15-2006, 02:07 PM

The opening panel with Johnny and Sue is just werid. Johnny and Sue are front-to-front, flying diagonally up, and Sue's costume is ripped in several places, her upper body arched away from Johnny. Taken by itself, it might just be a weird panel, but given what happens later with their secret IDs, the cumulative effect is to suggest that it's not just genetic coincidence that both Reed and Sue's kids are blond. Millar has a rather sick sense of humour.

This issue pretty much confirms for me that Millar is a fan of brother and sister love. I thought it was a running gag in the Ultimates but this clinches the deal.

Michael P

11-15-2006, 02:11 PM

This issue pretty much confirms for me that Millar is a fan of brother and sister love. I thought it was a running gag in the Ultimates but this clinches the deal.
I think he's more a fan of using juvenile unfunny shock tactics in lieu of things like characterization and plot.

Effect

11-15-2006, 02:21 PM

I think he's more a fan of using juvenile unfunny shock tactics in lieu of things like characterization and plot.

Well said.

jade_nova

11-15-2006, 02:26 PM

I think he's more a fan of using juvenile unfunny shock tactics in lieu of things like characterization and plot.

I hope you are right about that.

Atom_basher

11-15-2006, 02:29 PM

i think people are looking to deep into the Sue Johnny thing personally.

jackolover

11-15-2006, 02:35 PM

I haven't read any of the posts. I waited so long for someone to start the thread then just gave up. So here goes.

Loved seeing Johnny in action at last. Don't know why he had to rescue Sue, as she's so powerful, nothing could harm her. Very naughty that Sue and Johnny's cover is a married couple. I bet ya Millar has been salivating to show those two together like that.

Why did Spidey take the blasts from Shield weapons? Was he knocked out by the window, or did his costume protect him?

Those two baddies, Jester and Jack, could not have taken down SM that easily. And I liked Punishers terminating those two in the sewer. But I don't see cap allowing Punisher on his team. (And where is Spiderwoman)?

I am really surprised Peter did, in fact, change sides. I so wished Tony would talk him into staying. This changes everything right here. Tony is now left with Nighthawk and Stature, but JJ Jamieson now has a clear fire at Spiderman again, and Peters life has just become as complicated as it can get.

I bet that's not DD in the NZ. I bet that's the Punisher. Just that crack about the 31 pieces of silver doesn't sound like Danny Rand. (Or maybe it does - anybody clarify?).

I know where caps going to send Susie - to Atlantis. But why is cap sending Hulking to Arizona?

Why is cap still so beat up? Seeing Stature defect in CW 5, means she didn't go back to YA straight after CW 4, so those posts saying YA + Run 1 - 4 was before CW 3 are correct. My suggestion that it happens after ASM 534 don't hold water, now. There are so many misdirections in this series.

And here we can see Tigra is spying on the anti-regs in CW 5, while she was fighting with pro-regs in CW 2. How did she get in their secret hideout?

Deadpooligan

11-15-2006, 02:38 PM

Spider-Man smashing his face into a window was just plain hilarious.

Heroes are always breaking through glass, and now it's just *FWACK*. Then the next panel it's like a friggin cartoon, where Spidey's still got his face against the cracked glass and his arms pressed against it.

Punisher, IMO, was done great here. Killing two guys, the full page of him holding a pwned Spidey was so cool. His hero status as controversial like it should be.

I liked it, but to be honest, it's a part of Civil War that would've worked better in Amazing Spider-Man.

Oh and, that dodging bullets scene? Awesome.

FrogMan

11-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Any news on the obscure heroes in this ish? I heard that NextWave is in there.

Mike Marino

11-15-2006, 02:49 PM

And here we can see Tigra is spying on the anti-regs in CW 5, while she was fighting with pro-regs in CW 2. How did she get in their secret hideout?

I raised that same question earlier. Same with Wonderman. I'm positive he was Pro-reg in either 3 or 4, but now he's on Cap's side. I know Cap mentioned in the book that they've gained new people to his side, but still, why would he take people so willfully that were on Stark's side earlier? Unless I missed it in some other book, I think it would have been an interesting part of the story.

SnakeEater

11-15-2006, 02:49 PM

This was a quick read, which it means it wasn't horrible, but it have it's fair share of problems. Mostly in the writing, there were some truly horrible lines in there:

Reed: "My darling Sue" - who talks like that? Seriously, what is this - the 40's?

Punisher: "Who do you think has been following you around in a ski mask..." - that's just the lamest reveal ever. I was getting real interested in who the ski mask guy was in #4, and I'm not pissed by the fact that it's Punisher, but it's just - except for Civil War #4, I've not seen him ONCE, so how exactly has he been "covering their asses"?

Daredevil - Why don't they take him out of his costume? Or at least unmask him? It just seems kinda stupid to me...

Thunderbolts - Are they keeping them in a crate? Seriously, it just seems wrong.

42 Portal - The portal had "42" in big white numbers on it. That's just retarted, like we couldn't figure out what the giant portal was by ourselves...

Probably the weakest issue of Civil War so far...

Damn it you literally took the post i had saved on a notepad and put it on for me. yeah this issue really pissed me off. i honestly think that the cover to this issue didnt fit the issue because this story was rewritten and thats why its late. Also someone else mentioned that Sue might have been looking for Namor and then asked if anyone else saw the cover to issue 6 and said maybe thats what was happening, but thanks to this misleading cover i dont think its goign to be what we expect.

SnakeEater

11-15-2006, 02:52 PM

I raised that same question earlier. Same with Wonderman. I'm positive he was Pro-reg in either 3 or 4, but now he's on Cap's side. I know Cap mentioned in the book that they've gained new people to his side, but still, why would he take people so willfully that were on Stark's side earlier? Unless I missed it in some other book, I think it would have been an interesting part of the story.

you didnt miss anything, this whole serious just went into vaccuum mode in less then about 10 pages.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 03:12 PM

Good issue, but I think I'm suffering from shock ending withdrawl. When I saw that To Be Continued, my eyes bugged out and I thought, "Where's my spalsh page cliffhanger?!"

The Punisher is the only thing that might have been a neat reveal this issue, so it was weird that Marvel spoiled it with the alternate cover solit.

No, wait, not weird...the other thing. Completely normal for them.

SEAN

Locue

11-15-2006, 03:14 PM

Called it. Spidey switching sides? Check. Getting rescued by Big Frank? Check. Let's see some cover art that hasn't "SPOILER" written on it now.

As usual, the only one you really can count on in the Marvel Universe is Frank Castle, the only character with his mind made up about things. Thank God he's back in good old 616 skull suit action.

Daredevil? Heh, it's probably Danny Rand, but I can't see him saying any of that which he says in the issue. Biblical stuff has Matt Murdock written all over it, that's just the way things are, and unless Danny's been getting some of Matt's lingo together to act the part, it should mean Matt's back from his euro trip. (But he isn't, naturally. Right?)

TheBatGotHim

11-15-2006, 03:19 PM

Spider-Man smashing his face into a window was just plain hilarious.

LOL that part was funny. Kinda reminded me of OVER THE HEDGE when they smash into the patio door.

Not a bad issue IMO. Seeing the Punisher rescue Peter was probably the best part in the book. But yeah, I was surprised we didnt get a shocking cliffhanger.

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 03:28 PM

I raised that same question earlier. Same with Wonderman. I'm positive he was Pro-reg in either 3 or 4, but now he's on Cap's side. I know Cap mentioned in the book that they've gained new people to his side, but still, why would he take people so willfully that were on Stark's side earlier? Unless I missed it in some other book, I think it would have been an interesting part of the story.

Where did you see Wonderman ?

Or was that Aaron Stack a.k.a Machine man from Nextwave you saw. :D

streator

11-15-2006, 03:37 PM

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 03:40 PM

sounds like a decent issue.
i'm glad it finally came out.

what did the punisher have to say about things?
just that he was opposed to registering and what not?
did he give an explanation as to why he's been running around in a ski-mask and didn't join the anti-registration side to begin with?

His thoughts about the subject boiled down to this, basically: he was on the side that doesn't employ murderers and psychopaths.

To which Monica Rambeau comments on the irony. :)

SEAN

Iron Syndicate

11-15-2006, 03:44 PM

Any news on the obscure heroes in this ish? I heard that NextWave is in there.

Monica Rambeuax is definatley in there, I've read that Aaron Stack is there too, but I couldn't spot him...

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 03:46 PM

Monica Rambeuax is definatley in there, I've read that Aaron Stack is there too, but I couldn't spot him...

Aaron's visible behind Cap as he's yelling for the medics.

SEAN

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 03:59 PM

To those who think Daredevil and Punisher pulled a switcheroo, consider this...Daredevil hands Tony the same coin he was fiddling with both in issue #1, and earlier this issue when the Punisher busted in.

SEAN

Brady

11-15-2006, 04:12 PM

A pretty weak issue if you ask me. It all feels so disjointed and thin...like the main series is just a sequences of scenes that add up to a summary of Civil War.

Speaking as someone who is only getting Civil War itself and none of the tie-ins, I think your spot on. The series definitely feels more like a summary than the main story.

I was completely lost when the Puisher "revealed" he was the guy in the ski mask who's been helping the Secret Avengers. If that stuff happened it didn't happen in the story I was reading.

I'm just thoroughly dissapointed by this whole thing so far, and I really wasn't expecting much to begin with. Civil War has failed to meet my fairly low expectations.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 04:21 PM

I was completely lost when the Puisher "revealed" he was the guy in the ski mask who's been helping the Secret Avengers. If that stuff happened it didn't happen in the story I was reading.

You read everything the rest of us did. He appeared in the ski mask last issue, and we never saw him helping the Secret Avengers on-panel.

SEAN

spidervenom

11-15-2006, 04:27 PM

davros42

11-15-2006, 04:29 PM

Any news on the obscure heroes in this ish? I heard that NextWave is in there.

Monica and Aaron are both there. And as far as obscure heroes go: Triathalon, Firebird (although she's in two series at the moment, Civil War and Beyond!), Living Lightning, Diamondback, Stingray, and I think the chick on crutches from New Warriors is in there too...

Does Justice count as obscure these days? He's there too.

Haunt

11-15-2006, 04:29 PM

You read everything the rest of us did. He appeared in the ski mask last issue, and we never saw him helping the Secret Avengers on-panel.

SEAN

he wasn't Banana Man from Front-line?

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 04:30 PM

I thought the issue was decent wasnt as good as the last one this one felt a little lacking but oh well I guess the next issue will make It up. Also why didnt spideys spidey sense go off in the sewers, Maybe Stark put some kind of spidey sense blocker or somthing.

It might've gone off. He was just hurt and sluggish.

Or, Millar ignored it like every writer does when Spidey occasionally needs to take a hit. ;)

SEAN

Effect

11-15-2006, 04:30 PM

You know what. Looking at this issue I don't understand at all why this issue was delayed. What was worth the extra time here?

Nyssane

11-15-2006, 04:30 PM

Monica and Aaron are both there. And as far as obscure heroes go: Triathalon, Firebird (although she's in two series at the moment, Civil War and Beyond!), Living Lightning, Diamondback, Stingray, and I think the chick on crutches from New Warriors is in there too...

Does Justice count as obscure these days? He's there too.

Diamondback? AHHH! I just went to the comic shop, too! If I had known she was in it... :(

And I heard Asp appeared, as well.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 04:31 PM

he wasn't Banana Man from Front-line?

Didn't Jenkins say that Banana Man was different than Ski Mask Man? I might be wrong...or he might've just been vague.

SEAN

Cody H

11-15-2006, 04:40 PM

Pretty decent issue. I expected more of a battle between Tony and Pete, but it makes sense how it went, and at least Tony was trying to talk to him as oppose to continuing to act like villain. I would've bet that he'd have rigged the suit to shut down or something though. And then there's the battle with Jack and Jester. I understand what everybody's getting at with Spidey being defeated by two b-listers, but if he was mauled by guys like Bullseye, Venom, and the Goblin, there's no way I'm buying a save from the Punisher. Besides, he'd already been blasted threw the wall of Stark Towers by the Capekillers, so he like wasn't near 100%, and he was hit with massive explosive point blank, followed Jack's gas and two over bomb blasts, I'll buy that.

I didn't even think The Punisher might be the guy in the ski mask, but that's more because I didn't really put much thought into the ski mask guy at all as the extent of his involvement seemed to be hiding in the shadows and looking mysterious, maybe I'm missing something though, I'm not reading all the tie-ins. I suspect he's also the guy with the bannana in Frontline, but that's just a guess (and it probably won't even be addressed).

I agree with most everybody that this fell a little short of previous parts, and the lack of a cliffhanger ending was a big part of that, but I'm willing to let that slide as I'm still enjoying the series. Just no more delays, please.

CaptainCanada

11-15-2006, 04:44 PM

Diamondback? AHHH! I just went to the comic shop, too! If I had known she was in it... :(

Well, with Sharon off being manipulated by the Red Skull, Cap needs her close at hand in these trying times, in order to let off some steam.;)

Nyssane

11-15-2006, 04:59 PM

Well, with Sharon off being manipulated by the Red Skull, Cap needs her close at hand in these trying times, in order to let off some steam.;)

Hott. ;)

Oh, and apparently it's Black Mamba and not Asp. :(

Pyro

11-15-2006, 05:08 PM

Pretty decent issue. I expected more of a battle between Tony and Pete, but it makes sense how it went, and at least Tony was trying to talk to him as oppose to continuing to act like villain. I would've bet that he'd have rigged the suit to shut down or something though. And then there's the battle with Jack and Jester. I understand what everybody's getting at with Spidey being defeated by two b-listers, but if he was mauled by guys like Bullseye, Venom, and the Goblin, there's no way I'm buying a save from the Punisher. Besides, he'd already been blasted threw the wall of Stark Towers by the Capekillers, so he like wasn't near 100%, and he was hit with massive explosive point blank, followed Jack's gas and two over bomb blasts, I'll buy that.

I agree with most everybody that this fell a little short of previous parts, and the lack of a cliffhanger ending was a big part of that, but I'm willing to let that slide as I'm still enjoying the series. Just no more delays, please.
You pretty much said what I wanted to say. I also thought Tony would have shut down the suit, and that the lack of any kind of cliffhanger or anything else major happening made this issue seem a little less good than previous issues, but I still enjoyed it.

Sharcque

11-15-2006, 05:12 PM

didn't read the whole thread, so if this has been addressed, sorry.

But how does Iron spidey costume "tear" from glass when it can stop bullets?

1WEBHEAD

11-15-2006, 05:17 PM

Ok I'm going to be very frank with you guys.

This issue kicked alot of ass. But not enough.:(

Pros
* The art was BEAUTIFUL!:D
* Love the cover!
* The Punisher owns all!
* Nice moments of the Anti Regs and Pro Regs.
* I enjoyed the (short) Spidey and Iron Man conversion/fight.
* Cant wait to next issue.
* Tigra!
Cons
* Way too short.I dont know if its the Delays talking, but with all this anticipation and waiting this issue leaves the reader demanding more.
* I'm saying that Jester and Jack o Latern kicking the crap out of SpiderMan isnt cool or anything but I would have perfered if the Green Goblin and Venom/Scorpian had their fun too.

But still I love this book and will continue collecting most of the tie-ins I can afford. Call me a Civil Whore but I give this issue a...

5/5

:)

Sheldon

11-15-2006, 05:18 PM

It was good. I liked DD's last line, but I like many was expecting a bigger cliffhanger. I also found it odd considering how much fuss took place in DDs own series about whether he is Matt or not, that they would take him to jail fully costumed.

Damn that Tigra!

Xanrn

11-15-2006, 05:18 PM

Yeah and it hangs like Fabric not liquid Metal.

Also Spidey threw Wolverine through the Glass of Avengers tower not long ago, Stark most have upgraded again.

Also why does Jack'o'Lantern have an actual pumpkin for a head? I thought it was the simple mercenary on...

Amazing 536 better be a decent fight issue...

Young Avenger

11-15-2006, 05:20 PM

I thought it was a decent issue. Punisher saving a pwned Spider-Man made this issue for me. Wonder Man is anti-reg now? I didn't see them.

Haunt

11-15-2006, 05:41 PM

I thought it was a decent issue. Punisher saving a pwned Spider-Man made this issue for me. Wonder Man is anti-reg now? I didn't see them.

he might have been busy instructing new recruits.

Will.S

11-15-2006, 05:43 PM

Good issue, but I think I'm suffering from shock ending withdrawl. When I saw that To Be Continued, my eyes bugged out and I thought, "Where's my spalsh page cliffhanger?!"
I had the same feeling regarding the cliffhangers.

Civil War probably won't reach the dizzying peaks of the first couple of issues, especially after the Thor clone reveal which had us on edge for a month or two but I suspect the next issue will set the cliffhanger for the big final battle in issue #7.

As for the issue itself, I really liked it even though it didn't have any huge battles or shocking revelations. It's all about the little neat things like the Capekillers going after Human Torch and Invisible Woman who make a pretty cool escape, the Iron Man and Spider-Man confrontation, Punisher saving Spider-Man, the anti-registration's plan to attack the Baxter Building for the 42 schematics, and a possible infiltration of 42 by a DD.

I don't see the 50 State Initiative going into effect since it would almost make Marvel have to publish several books for each team but there might be some sort of contingency plan in place to keep it smaller scale and still widespread at the same time. New Avengers #25 revealed a huge clue into Tony's future role as well assuming that he takes it up.

A couple of interesting things I noticed:

Iron Man mentions that the SHRA is a compromise from a total shutdown of all superheroes permanently.

The U-Foes are also among the T-Bolts.

Iron Man when confronted with Spider-Man shows his eyes, it makes him look less like a robot which I liked. Might have been either from McNiven or Millar's end.

I don't think Jester or Jack 'O Lantern are dead. Jester was shot at the side of his head and Jack's head exploded like a pumpkin but no blood or anything was shown. I loved Jester's little bag of tricks with the silly yoyo and the bombs.

42 is fricking HUGE.

As for the artwork, I still think the delays are totally worth it. It still remains to be a GORGEOUS book and it had tons of great visuals even in the mundane scenes. All in all I'd give the issue a 8/10 and I actually liked that it wasn't all BAM! since we get to see more set up into the last two issues as well as some interesting insight on both sides.

bulbasteve

11-15-2006, 05:50 PM

Wonder Man is anti-reg now? I didn't see them.

No, the guy just got Wonder Man and Machine Man confused, both have red eyes. Granted machine man isn't the cool machine man in my avatar..he would SO be pro-reg.

Also why does Jack'o'Lantern have an actual pumpkin for a head? I thought it was the simple mercenary on...

Maybe he is a really short, so don't think he is dead quite yet! And hell maybe Jester two, seems to me he will have one less ear but may still be kicking to be a major baddy now (since man did they kick ass this issue).

Clint Barton

11-15-2006, 05:54 PM

The mere fact that Stringray got some air time made this book worth it to me.

CyberCoyote

11-15-2006, 05:59 PM

So..Spiderman isn't strong enough to break the glass, but the SHIELD 'bullets' that we keep getting told are non lethal can? Me am kunfoosed. If the bullets they use hit harder than Spidey and they use them on Prowler, and Spidey can knock Prowler's skull through his pelvis if he's not careful?

Eh, it's Millar, write for the panel..

Arti

11-15-2006, 06:02 PM

Can't wait for Danny Rand to bust out of his prison and wreak havoc in 42.

Pyro

11-15-2006, 06:08 PM

It's all about the little neat things like the Capekillers going after Human Torch and Invisible Woman who make a pretty cool escape, the Iron Man and Spider-Man confrontation, Punisher saving Spider-Man, the anti-registration's plan to attack the Baxter Building for the 42 schematics, and a possible infiltration of 42 by a DD....42 is fricking HUGE.
It might be nitpicky, but HT& IW's escape didn't seem very logical to me because I find it really unlikely that SHIELD doesn't have heat sensors. Just because IW made them invisible doesn't mean SHIELD should have lost track of them. Not a big deal, just bothered me a little.

Also, is the prison really 42? I remember a long time ago Marvel kept saying that 42 was different from the prison, but they haven't shown us anything to say otherwise. There was a hint given this issue to what 42 might be named for (something to do with Tony's mom), but it doesn't help. Is 42 something that they're planning to reveal in the one of the next issues, or are we to understand that it is the prison?

Will.S

11-15-2006, 06:08 PM

Will.S

11-15-2006, 06:14 PM

It might be nitpicky, but HT& IW's escape didn't seem very logical to me because I find it really unlikely that SHIELD doesn't have heat sensors. Just because IW made them invisible doesn't mean SHIELD should have lost track of them. Not a big deal, just bothered me a little.SHIELD mentions going into infra red but it looks like they outran them by a small stretch and then used their small window of time to change into their secret identities.

Also, is the prison really 42? I remember a long time ago Marvel kept saying that 42 was different from the prison, but they haven't shown us anything to say otherwise. There was a hint given this issue to what 42 might be named for (something to do with Tony's mom), but it doesn't help. Is 42 something that they're planning to reveal in the one of the next issues, or are we to understand that it is the prison?
I'm guessing that 42 is both the prison and possibly other things as well so we'll have to wait and see come next issue.

ultramandingo

11-15-2006, 06:17 PM

atleast spidermans outa the avengers - ihope - and rid of that lamo suit .i wonder what the next issues big shocker will be - that marvel will give away by puting it on the frikin cover

Haunt

11-15-2006, 06:23 PM

No, the guy just got Wonder Man and Machine Man confused, both have red eyes. Granted machine man isn't the cool machine man in my avatar..he would SO be pro-reg.

Maybe he is a really short, so don't think he is dead quite yet! And hell maybe Jester two, seems to me he will have one less ear but may still be kicking to be a major baddy now (since man did they kick ass this issue).

Frank Castle isn't known for leaving people alive. doesn't matter though since the pro-side could just clone a new Jester and Jack-O-Lantern.

Cody H

11-15-2006, 06:24 PM

New Avengers #25 revealed a huge clue into Tony's future role as well assuming that he takes it up.

A couple of interesting things I noticed:

Iron Man mentions that the SHRA is a compromise from a total shutdown of all superheroes permanently.Yeah, it looks as if the demonizing of Tony Stark has come to an end as we're getting a little more of an explanation around his actions. The idea that by supporting the SHRA, he's avoided a complete ban on superheroes vilifies him to some degree, in my eyes anyway.

I don't think Jester or Jack 'O Lantern are dead. Jester was shot at the side of his head and Jack's head exploded like a pumpkin but no blood or anything was shown. I loved Jester's little bag of tricks with the silly yoyo and the bombs.Yeah, that was the exact same thing I thought. The first thing that came to mind when I saw the panel of him getting shot was that it just grazed him. If they wanted us to believe he was dead, they could have easily gave us a more graphic shot. Same goes for Jack.

Lanowar

11-15-2006, 06:32 PM

Pyro

11-15-2006, 06:33 PM

SHIELD mentions going into infra red but it looks like they outran them by a small stretch and then used their small window of time to change into their secret identities.I must have missed that while I was trying to figure out how going invisible was their escape plan.

I also didn't like how the SHIELD Guy called them clowns. The FF have gained more respect than that. Even if they are breaking the law, only a jerk would put them on the same level as common criminals.

I keep complaining, but I really didn't think it was bad. It's just easier to point out the negatives than the positives. Some things I liked: the art was beautiful, as always. I liked Spider-Man. I liked the appearance of Punisher. I assume we will learn more about his Ski Mask activities in Punisher War Journal coming out soon.

Kid Kyoto

11-15-2006, 06:36 PM

Rotter

11-15-2006, 06:38 PM

So: Daredevil sorely inconvenienced himself all day to make an melodramatic, hopelessly-theatrical and vaguely-defiant-but-safe statement that ultimately didn't really land properly.

I've got the answer: forget Iron Fist or Murdock...the person under the mask is actually an eighth-grade girl with a daily journal. Probably a middle-child, too.

re: the Punisher. Er, he brought about 1.8 billion dollars worth of technology that Tony Stark personally engineered -- and I'm guessing that part of it has Bluetooth at the very least -- into Cap's Super Secret Krazy Klubhouse. Can this possibly be a good thing?

Haunt

11-15-2006, 06:49 PM

I would assume Invisible Woman is invisible to all sorts of electromagnetic radition, IR, RADAR etc, otherwise she would have become useless a long time ago.

uh, her force-field's can survive a punch from the Hulk.

Pyro

11-15-2006, 06:50 PM

I would assume Invisible Woman is invisible to all sorts of electromagnetic radition, IR, RADAR etc, otherwise she would have become useless a long time ago.
Really? I never thought about that. I wonder if it's true. Has anyone got their handbook entry on her handy?

I can't believe there are only 2 more issues of Civil War. It seems far from over.

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 06:51 PM

Just read it, feels really barebones as far as what actually happens in the book. Still a decent read, 6 out of 10 maybe.

Dumbest thing in the world: this issue IM's convo with Spidey starts out with him calling Spider-Man a lunatic and asking why they can't "just sit down and discuss this like grown-ups?" So, yeah, didn't actually buy whichever Spider-Man tie-in it took place in, but didn't Iron Man directly previous to this scene in Civil War outright ATTACK Spider-Man, ONLY because Iron Man was bugging Spider-Man and had overheard him have a change of heart? Am I recalling that correctly? So bugging a friend and then attacking him unprovoked after listening in on a private conversation between him and his family leads you to believe HE'S the lunatic in the room, and incapable of talking things out like an adult.

Yeah. Reasonable approach there guy. Perfectly sensible.

Also, if you look at the window when Spidey's smashed up against it, it's cracked after he first makes contact. So Spidey's big fat Spidey-head starts the breaking, the bullets finish it off. And as for the spidey-sense not shown at all and having evidently no effect in the sewers, I'd imagine Stark building in a dampener for that power into the suit is a good enough explanation. I s'pose.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 06:54 PM

but didn't Iron Man directly previous to this scene in Civil War outright ATTACK Spider-Man, ONLY because Iron Man was bugging Spider-Man and had overheard him have a change of heart? Am I recalling that correctly?

Different writers. Fact of life: too many cooks spoil the broth.

SEAN

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 06:55 PM

I would assume Invisible Woman is invisible to all sorts of electromagnetic radition, IR, RADAR etc, otherwise she would have become useless a long time ago.
I'm gonna say doubtful, at least as far as infrared goes, because after she makes her and her bro invisible is the point when the SHIELD agent mentions switching to IR.

Different writers. Fact of life: too many cooks spoil the broth.

SEAN
Definitely agreed there. Still, as far as what I talked about, we're clearly shown the damage of IM's attack from the Spidey book in the Civil War book. So that dialogue's still hilariously insane.

Michael P

11-15-2006, 06:59 PM

It says something about how ludicrous death in superhero comics has gotten that you can have characters shot in the head on-panel, and people will say "I don't think he's really dead."

jackolover

11-15-2006, 06:59 PM

. I liked the appearance of Punisher. I assume we will learn more about his Ski Mask activities in Punisher War Journal coming out soon.

Now that we know the ski mask is Punisher, who was following Nighthawk and Stature, I wonder what happened when he caught up with them?

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 07:03 PM

It says something about how ludicrous death in superhero comics has gotten that you can have characters shot in the head on-panel, and people will say "I don't think he's really dead."

It says something else about comics that anyone still has faith the Jester will ever be used again. :D

SEAN

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 07:09 PM

It says something else about comics that anyone still has faith the Jester will ever be used again. :D

SEAN
I like that they actually made him seem like a cool credible threat for all of three pages before blowing his brains out.

Will.S

11-15-2006, 07:10 PM

Dumbest thing in the world: this issue IM's convo with Spidey starts out with him calling Spider-Man a lunatic and asking why they can't "just sit down and discuss this like grown-ups?" So, yeah, didn't actually buy whichever Spider-Man tie-in it took place in, but didn't Iron Man directly previous to this scene in Civil War outright ATTACK Spider-Man, ONLY because Iron Man was bugging Spider-Man and had overheard him have a change of heart? Am I recalling that correctly? So bugging a friend and then attacking him unprovoked after listening in on a private conversation between him and his family leads you to believe HE'S the lunatic in the room, and incapable of talking things out like an adult.

Yeah. Reasonable approach there guy. Perfectly sensible. Iron Man definitely could have picked out a better way to stop Spider-Man from leaving but he did try to explain and reason to him regarding why he backed the SHRA how Spider-Man endangers MJ and Aunt May now that he's on the run before he escaped.

There's also the situation that Spider-Man has gone rogue so he has to take him in but notice that he doesn't actively pursue Spider-Man himself, Hill actually sends in Jack and Jester to deal with him. Now I'm not saying Spider-Man shouldn't go anti-registration, he has every reason to but he's made some big mistakes that will bite him twice as hard now that he's anti-registration but we'll see where Spider-Man will go from here after he's all healed up.

I can see him most likely adopting a new identity altogether and hiding out with Cap on the New Avengers.

Darkjoe1990

11-15-2006, 07:12 PM

I thought the isshue was good but when everything prior is great it's a hard rank.

BAD:
I am kind or put-off by marvel saying this is the pro-reg isshue, I'm pro-reg and I thought spidermans treatment was dispicable.

I already knew everything they revealed, I KNOW I'm not the only one who figured out what the 50 state intitiative was from the last 2 pages off book 4.

Maria Hill needs to fall down a long flight of stairs, or join Wolverine on one of his weekly helicarrier jumps. "I knew we shouldint have trusted that guy", why dose the government HATE spiderman?

Anti-reg barely did anything.

Is there realy a need for a prison that looks big enough to hold the entire population of Latveria when all it holds are about 100-200 heros?

GOOD:
Every page with spiderman was intense and powerfull.

Everything the Punisher did or said, I cant stop stareing at the page with him holding spiderman, absolutly magnificint.

Stingray and Daredevil both had GREAT lines.

I feel for Reed and the registeration or nothing dose help the pro-reg be understood.

END: If you want to feel anything for tony read iron man 13.

Beamish

11-15-2006, 07:18 PM

Remember the Pro Side thinks they have Daredevil when in fact they have Iron Fist so we might see him escaping and leading a full scale revolt. Each cell is suppose to be desgined to contain those in them, not expecting for example Iron Fist in a cell desgined to contain Daredevil.
My guess is that IronDareFistDevil is Danny, and his capture was planned by Cap to get put into the 52, break out of his "Daredevil" cell and go straight for Cloak, who Cap mentioned was captured, and that he needed his teleportation skills.
I liked the continuity with Monica in her Nextwave attire and attitude.
As for Tigra, she keeps her cell phone where she used to keep her Avengers ID card.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 07:18 PM

Though the link between ASM and CW could've been better, isn't it cool that Iron Man doesn't immediately say, "Okay, you're my enemy now, prepare to die."

He also refers to the Negative Zone prison as a temporary measure, which is at least a littler better than his previous "Welcome to Hell" explanation.

Millar's criticized for his lack of characterization, and there's some merit to that, but he's still writing the most conflicted and sympathetic Tony we've seen so far. A lot of his pro-reg arguments can't help but make sense, and I have no trouble believing he believes in them.

SEAN

jackolover

11-15-2006, 07:19 PM

Iron Man definitely could have picked out a better way to stop Spider-Man from leaving but he did try to explain and reason to him regarding why he backed the SHRA how Spider-Man endangers MJ and Aunt May now that he's on the run before he escaped.

There's also the situation that Spider-Man has gone rogue so he has to take him in but notice that he doesn't actively pursue Spider-Man himself, Hill actually sends in Jack and Jester to deal with him. Now I'm not saying Spider-Man shouldn't go anti-registration, he has every reason to but he's made some big mistakes that will bite him twice as hard now that he's anti-registration but we'll see where Spider-Man will go from here after he's all healed up.

I can see him most likely adopting a new identity altogether and hiding out with Cap on the New Avengers.

That whole, what happens to spiderman now, thing, really starts to rise.

I'd say he joins cap, no doubt about it, now that he has defected. Peter would want the NZ to be shut down and the prisoners emptied out. The whole clone thing was also what shocked Peter, so I see Peter wanting to attack Baxter Building and ransacking that little hotel. Did that DD at the end have any contusions? If he did it could be Peter, not Iron Fist or Punisher.

I see Peter collecting May and MJ and taking them to the anti-hideout, just like he did in Stark Tower, so that if any one finds out about the hideout, of cause May and MJ are back in danger, AGAIN.

Kevinroc

11-15-2006, 07:19 PM

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 07:21 PM

Millar isn't writing the most sympathetic Tony we've seen so far. Read Iron Man #13 for the most sympathetic Tony we've seen so far in Civil War.

(Of course, Tony better look sympathetic in his own title.)

Well, okay, fair enough. The best I'VE seen so far, as I have not yet read Iron Man. There, happy? :p ;)

SEAN

Kevinroc

11-15-2006, 07:23 PM

Well, okay, fair enough. The best I'VE seen so far, as I have not yet read Iron Man. There, happy? :p ;)

SEAN

Yes. :)

(Character limit.)

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 07:31 PM

Iron Man definitely could have picked out a better way to stop Spider-Man from leaving but he did try to explain and reason to him regarding why he backed the SHRA how Spider-Man endangers MJ and Aunt May now that he's on the run before he escaped.

There's also the situation that Spider-Man has gone rogue so he has to take him in but notice that he doesn't actively pursue Spider-Man himself, Hill actually sends in Jack and Jester to deal with him. Now I'm not saying Spider-Man shouldn't go anti-registration, he has every reason to but he's made some big mistakes that will bite him twice as hard now that he's anti-registration but we'll see where Spider-Man will go from here after he's all healed up.

I can see him most likely adopting a new identity altogether and hiding out with Cap on the New Avengers.
You're not speaking to what specifically sounded ludicrous to me. Iron Man straight-up attacked Spidey (in ASM I take it?), AND THEN called him a lunatic and asked why they couldn't just talk things out. That's, again, AFTER Iron Man attacked him unprovoked, unless you want to count hearing something you don't like while surveilling your 'friend' without their knowledge as provocation.

It's nonsensical to berate Spidey with those particular lines given the situation.

jackolover

11-15-2006, 07:34 PM

Another little merry-go-round is Tigra's little phone call.

Tigra will inform the pro-side of plans:

To attack the Baxter Building
Send Sue to Atlantis
Send Hulking to Arizona.
That Punisher is in the mix.
That Spiderman is now anti-reg.

I see a few plans by the anti-regs being foiled, again, like the ambush in CW3, and one clean arrest at the Baxter Building.

Once Tigra is inside with the anti-regs, and she doesn't get caught, (because maybe Fury has a mobile phone detector running), everything that cap lays out, is going to go straight onto the war rooms table of the pro-side. Cap will begin to suspect everyone. Spidey, and all the other defectors may be herded into a cell until cap can stop the leak of information.

Sijo

11-15-2006, 07:34 PM

Sue's invisibility DOES extend into the Infra-Red region of the spectrum, her Handbook entry says so. Of course, her powers may have changed since then. Or The Torch's IR output might be too much for her to hide. Or somebody didn't do his research.

Spider-Man can press 10 ten tons but can't smash reinforced glass? Yet bullets do?? Unless they were armor-piercing- which means they were shooting to kill.

SHIELD and half the Marvel Heroes are looking for the Secret Avengers but Punisher, a street-level vigilante, is the one who finds them. Right. And no way Cap would accept him in the group- he's a murderer. There's a difference in fighting criminals to protect people and in killing them because you hate them. And how come Puny can help them storm the Baxter Building?

What IS Cap's plan, anyway? I thought he had one, but it's issue #5 and he's still just hiding out. Even if he rescues the prisoners in the Negative Zone, then what? How do they change the law or the public's attitudes?

They capture Daredevil, who happens to be Iron Fist, whose identity is public, I believe. So, why don't they identify him?

One thing I notice: like a bad documentary, the story only shows you the sides of the story the writer wants to: for example, Johnny Storm, who is the most popular member of the most popular hero team on Marvel's Earth, is shown being beaten by punks, as a show of how some people now hate heroes. But surely there should've also been lots of people concerned for him and angry at the attack? Why weren't they shown?

I'm not saying Civil War is a bad story... it certainly has its thrills. But it doesn't feel like an actual part of the Marvel Universe. It would've been better as an Ultimate Marvel story.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 07:38 PM

Spider-Man can press 10 ten tons but can't smash reinforced glass?

No reason to assume he couldn't have broken it. He was planning on leaping through a dinky piece of normal glass, so there was no reason for him to put his all into it.

Plus, as has been stated, he did put a big ol' crack in it, and a veritable hail of gunfire (plus his body) was enough to finish it.

SEAN

Will.S

11-15-2006, 07:39 PM

I see Peter collecting May and MJ and taking them to the anti-hideout, just like he did in Stark Tower, so that if any one finds out about the hideout, of cause May and MJ are back in danger, AGAIN.
It seems like MJ and Aunt May are in danger no matter what. On the pro-registration side villains or wacko's can get to them one way or another, on the anti side there's always the fear of SHIELD raids and getting them locked up so it's kind of like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Either way both MJ and Aunt May's social lives are totally shot.

I almost forgot that Mr. Fantastic confirmed this issue that the cloned Thor is indeed a mix of Pym cybernetics and cloned DNA.

Kevinroc

11-15-2006, 07:41 PM

No reason to assume he couldn't have broken it. He was planning on leaping through a dinky piece of normal glass, so there was no reason for him to put his all into it.

Plus, as has been stated, he did put a big ol' crack in it, and a veritable hail of gunfire (plus his body) was enough to finish it.

SEAN

Reinforced glass payed for by Tony Stark. After Peter had already broken some of the glass in a previous issue of Amazing.

Hey, Tony decided to upgrade since then. But not enough. :p

Doom Hammer

11-15-2006, 07:47 PM

You're not speaking to what specifically sounded ludicrous to me. Iron Man straight-up attacked Spidey (in ASM I take it?), AND THEN called him a lunatic and asked why they couldn't just talk things out. That's, again, AFTER Iron Man attacked him unprovoked, unless you want to count hearing something you don't like while surveilling your 'friend' without their knowledge as provocation.

It's nonsensical to berate Spidey with those particular lines given the situation.

The thing is, the tie-ins haven't quite matched up with the main series in a couple of instances.

For example, Spider-Man fought Captain America the day after the chemical plant battle, yet in this issue, days later, Captain America is still largely immobile from his throw-down with Iron Man. What?

I just tend to believe the main series. Millar has a vision.

We R. Venom

11-15-2006, 07:47 PM

Just a quick question. Who is Ultragirl? I don't know much about her.

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 07:48 PM

Sue's invisibility DOES extend into the Infra-Red region of the spectrum, her Handbook entry says so. Of course, her powers may have changed since then. Or The Torch's IR output might be too much for her to hide. Or somebody didn't do his research.
Technically, since we're talking about a fictional superpower this is gonna be hard to really argue. But assuming invisibility is invisibility, and Sue can make her IR signature invisible, I wouldn't assume there's a range of easy to difficult for her. She can turn it on or turn it off, either it's visible or it's not, and if she can extend her invisibility to conceal her bro then his IR output being too much doesn't really fly for me. I'd sooner guess someone didn't do their research, and/or they're gonna go ahead and smidge that bit of her powers out of continuity.

SHIELD and half the Marvel Heroes are looking for the Secret Avengers but Punisher, a street-level vigilante, is the one who finds them. Right. And no way Cap would accept him in the group- he's a murderer. There's a difference in fighting criminals to protect people and in killing them because you hate them. And how come Puny can help them storm the Baxter Building?
Cap argued against Wolverine becoming an Avenger based on the murdering issue, but Iron Man talked him into it, which denotes some newfound flexibility in this area. Considering it's Civil War, Cap finds himself in extreme circumstances, fighting an actual war now, and in desperate need of all the help he can get. I buy it.

They capture Daredevil, who happens to be Iron Fist, whose identity is public, I believe. So, why don't they identify him?
Yeah, bugged me too. When I went to jail they made me strip and change into a jumpsuit right in front of a police officer, which I assume is the normal procedure for anybody going to jail. I hope. Why doesn't DD have to be put through that same process?

Big Red Spider

11-15-2006, 07:51 PM

Yeah, civil war #5. I can't wait to wait two more months for another 22 pages of action and 26 pages of advertisements. Yeah;)

jackolover

11-15-2006, 07:51 PM

I
I feel for Reed and the registeration or nothing dose help the pro-reg be understood.

I, also, feel Reed is cracking under the pressure of what the pro-reg side has done to keep the SHRA on track. I think Reed doesn't feel the compromises are worth it anymore. Sue has berated him; Peter, said Reed loved his Uncle despite his uncle being an outcast, implying, why doesn't Reed wake up and smell the flowers are putrid. Now, Peter has brought to Reeds attention, the inhumanity of the NZ, and how Peter now defected for Peters beliefs.

All the people Reed believes in have abandoned him while he is in this course. Just because he got his nerdy rocks off with Tony and Hank, doesn't mean these geniouses know what there're doing.

If you look at the big picture, of what has happened in 5 issues of CW, you don't get much closer to the Initiative. There is a lot of brutality, and conflict, and insecurity (from both Tony and Reed, and poor Hank is in therapy).

So, is the push to enforce the SHRA worth persueing, or will the government really enforce total SH shutdown if Tony doesn't follow through?

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 07:52 PM

In response to the Punisher finding Cap's hideout, it is because he the Punisher!!!! :evilsmile

He's like part of Marvel's answer for Batman minus the rich inheritance!!! :o

I could say that who has the moral ground, Cap or Iron Man, for both men want to shut the other down. :(

Who has the moral ground when it comes to the acts taken upon both groups: Iron Man with his cloning and his nano control villains and his smooth manlipulations or Captain America with his trust, his teammates, including the Punisher who ISN'T nano controled despite what he does, and his modest.

So who would you choose ? :(

CMBMOOL

11-15-2006, 07:54 PM

I, also, feel Reed is cracking under the pressure of what the pro-reg side has done to keep the SHRA on track. I think Reed doesn't feel the compromises are worth it anymore. Sue has berated him; Peter, said Reed loved his Uncle despite his uncle being an outcast, implying, why doesn't Reed wake up and smell the flowers are putrid. Now, Peter has brought to Reeds attention, the inhumanity of the NZ, and how Peter now defected for Peters beliefs.

All the people Reed believes in have abandoned him while he is in this course. Just because he got his nerdy rocks off with Tony and Hank, doesn't mean these geniouses know what there're doing.

If you look at the big picture, of what has happened in 5 issues of CW, you don't get much closer to the Initiative. There is a lot of brutality, and conflict, and insecurity (from both Tony and Reed, and poor Hank is in therapy).

So, is the push to enforce the SHRA worth persueing, or will the government really enforce total SH shutdown if Tony doesn't follow through?

In simpler terms, Reed finally waking up and realizing what his actions are costing him. :(

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 07:55 PM

The thing is, the tie-ins haven't quite matched up with the main series in a couple of instances.

For example, Spider-Man fought Captain America the day after the chemical plant battle, yet in this issue, days later, Captain America is still largely immobile from his throw-down with Iron Man. What?

I just tend to believe the main series. Millar has a vision.
Absolutely agreed with all that. Still silly. Taking it at face value, you can SEE the damage from Tony blindsiding Spidey in ASM, Spidey's standing there with a big gaping hole in the wall behind him like he just got up from that blindsiding, so it's fairly apparent that that all went down as shown in ASM.

That said, since just about all the tie-ins aren't on my pull list, I've only been picking up Civil War and bottomline that's where the 'real' story is. Tony's dialogue right there just makes me laugh. How many reasonable conversations did you ever start off by tackling people into a wall?

Young Avenger

11-15-2006, 08:00 PM

And how come Puny can help them storm the Baxter Building?

He has the Black ops training to sneak into the building. The anti-reg guys could use that.

Doom Hammer

11-15-2006, 08:01 PM

Absolutely agreed with all that. Still silly. Taking it at face value, you can SEE the damage from Tony blindsiding Spidey in ASM, Spidey's standing there with a big gaping hole in the wall behind him like he just got up from that blindsiding, so it's fairly apparent that that all went down as shown in ASM.

That said, since just about all the tie-ins aren't on my pull list, I've only been picking up Civil War and bottomline that's where the 'real' story is. Tony's dialogue right there just makes me laugh. How many reasonable conversations did you ever start off by tackling people into a wall?

It is kind of funny.

Tony blasts Spider-Man through a wall.

"Damn you, you fool! Quit being so damn insane! I just want to talk...dammit!"

"But Tony, that's all I want to do, too--"

Tony blasts Spider-Man in the junk with his repuslor rays.

"Sob, I ONLY ever wanted to be your fuh-fuh-fuh-FRIEND!"

[By the way, I'm proud of Millar for using "fool" instead of his usual vocabulary, which consists of a few more "idiots" and "freaking morons".]

Will.S

11-15-2006, 08:01 PM

You're not speaking to what specifically sounded ludicrous to me. Iron Man straight-up attacked Spidey (in ASM I take it?), AND THEN called him a lunatic and asked why they couldn't just talk things out. That's, again, AFTER Iron Man attacked him unprovoked, unless you want to count hearing something you don't like while surveilling your 'friend' without their knowledge as provocation.

It's nonsensical to berate Spidey with those particular lines given the situation.
I'm not disagreeing that Iron Man ramming him through a wall wasn't extreme if he wants to stop him but I wouldn't neccessarily call it a full on attack either since there was no follow-up punch or anything.

At worst Iron Man just wanted to stop Spider-Man from leaving the tower and wanted to talk him out of it. Spider-Man then nails him in order to get him out of the way but he's all set on just wanting to get the hell out of there and justifiably so given his new agenda.

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 08:03 PM

Just a quick question. Who is Ultragirl? I don't know much about her.
From wikipedia: A superstrong, superfast, nigh invulnerable flying mutant Kree girl who can see energy fields, raised on Earth who's supposed to be the Ultimate Unifier or something, supposed to unite the Kree Empire and return them to glory or somesuch.

It's neat how many alien up-and-comers get planted on Earth. The Hulkling of YA, Xavin and Karolina Dean from Runaways, Ultra Girl. I'm sure there's plenty more. We're the superpowered daycare of the universe.

Michael P

11-15-2006, 08:04 PM

Tigra will inform the pro-side of plans:

That Spiderman is now anti-reg.

I think they already know this part.

A.Warlock

11-15-2006, 08:06 PM

This series is not exciting me like I want it to. I would like at least twice as much dialogue for a series that claims to be thought-provoking.

Oh, and about the Punisher. I know the MAX version is not canon, but Ennis' current Punisher is the standard version that all writers should aspire to live up to, and having Frank actually brag about saving the anti-reg capes behind their backs is nothing like the Frank I know and love. He probably said more in his two or three page appearance than he has said in about three arcs of Ennis' book, and I don't see that as a good thing. I would have expected Millar, of anybody, to be able to make Punisher one of the most badass characters around, but he actually plays up Captain America as the hardhead and Punisher as softer.

That's my Punisher rant, because nothing else in the book warrants my attention.

We R. Venom

11-15-2006, 08:06 PM

From wikipedia: A superstrong, superfast, nigh invulnerable flying mutant Kree girl who can see energy fields, raised on Earth who's supposed to be the Ultimate Unifier or something, supposed to unite the Kree Empire and return them to glory or somesuch.

It's neat how many alien up-and-comers get planted on Earth. The Hulkling of YA, Xavin and Karolina Dean from Runaways, Ultra Girl. I'm sure there's plenty more. We're the superpowered daycare of the universe.

Thanks a lot. I knew i should have just gone to wikipedia. But i was feeling lazy.

Michael P

11-15-2006, 08:10 PM

It's neat how many alien up-and-comers get planted on Earth. The Hulkling of YA, Xavin and Karolina Dean from Runaways, Ultra Girl. I'm sure there's plenty more. We're the superpowered daycare of the universe.
They probably just took a look at Christianity and thought, "Hey, worst case scenario, the kid gets worshipped as a god, and in another thousand years, we can come down and take the place over, no sweat."

StoneGold

11-15-2006, 08:23 PM

Sue's invisibility DOES extend into the Infra-Red region of the spectrum, her Handbook entry says so. Of course, her powers may have changed since then. Or The Torch's IR output might be too much for her to hide. Or somebody didn't do his research.

I'm assuming you mean the SHIELD agent. Because apparently the infrared sensors didn't work. Seeing as how they got away scott free.

. And no way Cap would accept him in the group- he's a murderer.
http://www.amazingstoriesnj.com/catalog/images/punisher%20cap%20blood%20and%20glory1.jpg

valleygirlapocalypse

11-15-2006, 08:38 PM

New Avengers also came out this week and I have a question, hopefully someone else can help me with.

This Kenny fellow: Is this someone from Iron Man's comic canon history or is this another trademark Brian Michael retro-origined new character who "has been in the universe in the background" for years like Jessica in Alias?

Loestal

11-15-2006, 08:39 PM

Havn't read all the pages of this thread, but all I'm gonna say is this. How the hell could of Jester surprised Spider-man like that? With his new heightened spider sense, even with his normal sense, he could of seen that coming EASILY. That was rediculous, the fact that they advertise Venom, Goblin, Bullseye etc....some A listers fighting spider-man and we get.....Jester and a dead C lister, AND THEY ACTUALLY BEAT HIM....what?

All in all, I like CW but this issue was by far the weakest.

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 08:40 PM

Loestal

11-15-2006, 08:43 PM

I'd guess Tony built in a spidey-sense dampener he could flip on in case Spidey went rogue.

I had considered that, but they gave us no reason to think that and it just comes off as justification and speculation. No matter what happened, I DO NOT think freakin Jester and Jack-O-Latern should of taken him out.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 08:44 PM

1. Peter was suffering from a case of shot-full-of-holes-itis

And:

2. His spider sense's usual tendency to disappear whenever any writer wants him to take a hit.

SEAN

Loestal

11-15-2006, 08:47 PM

1. Peter was suffering from a case of shot-full-of-holes-itis

And:

2. His spider sense's usual tendency to disappear whenever any writer wants him to take a hit.

SEAN

Sooooo...what was the point of The Other if....bah, whatever. I know it's really not that big of a deal, it just kind of irritated me. Plus....Jester and Jack-o.....yeah right. I don't care how beat up he is, he could of taken those two. And why didn't they use Venom and company? That would of been much more of a impact on him than those two jokers...no pun intended.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 08:50 PM

Sooooo...what was the point of The Other if....

People have been asking that since it came out. ;)

SEAN

Haunt

11-15-2006, 08:59 PM

Havn't read all the pages of this thread, but all I'm gonna say is this. How the hell could of Jester surprised Spider-man like that? With his new heightened spider sense, even with his normal sense, he could of seen that coming EASILY. That was rediculous, the fact that they advertise Venom, Goblin, Bullseye etc....some A listers fighting spider-man and we get.....Jester and a dead C lister, AND THEY ACTUALLY BEAT HIM....what?
.

Tony explained to "Daredevil" that they were creating new heroes and upgrading new recruits. NO PRIZE

sephirothskiller

11-15-2006, 09:00 PM

Cthulhudrew

11-15-2006, 09:07 PM

Cthulhudrew

11-15-2006, 09:08 PM

I would assume Invisible Woman is invisible to all sorts of electromagnetic radition, IR, RADAR etc, otherwise she would have become useless a long time ago.

She's not. In one of Byrne's FF issues, when the FF travel into the future after Reed's dad Nathaniel, these cowboy guys use infrared tracking to find her after she goes invisible.

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 09:10 PM

Spidey can't break shatterproof glass, but regular bullets can?

Maybe it took both of them to do it.

SEAN

Cthulhudrew

11-15-2006, 09:13 PM

Sue's invisibility DOES extend into the Infra-Red region of the spectrum, her Handbook entry says so. Of course, her powers may have changed since then.

Huh- that's strange. I know that she hasn't always been invisible to IR.

Or The Torch's IR output might be too much for her to hide. Or somebody didn't do his research.

Again, I'd say the safest bet is that Johnny can use his control over heat to mask their IR signature.

Cthulhudrew

11-15-2006, 09:19 PM

Just a quick question. Who is Ultragirl? I don't know much about her.

Ultra-girl. (http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/ultgrl.htm)

The Lucky One

11-15-2006, 09:24 PM

Yeah, they're probably dead. Getting shot in the head will do that to you. But this is a comic, you never know. ;)

The art looks like it was pretty careful in showing Jester, at least, only getting grazed on the side of his head. Jack certainly looks dead (then again, that's pumpkin guts, not brains), but then again there's other Jacks out there so no one cares. Jester seems to have been left ambiguous on purpose.

-D

SnakeEater

11-15-2006, 09:24 PM

1. Peter was suffering from a case of shot-full-of-holes-itis

And:

2. His spider sense's usual tendency to disappear whenever any writer wants him to take a hit.

SEAN

actually he mentioned in Sensational that ever since he unmasked his spider sense has been on full alert. now i know sensational probably isnt considered full canon, but i think he may have mentioned it Amazing. Also Stark said in this issue he only wanted to speak to peter, it was Hill who demanded spidey be attacked so i doubt Tony would have hurt peter at all. He really does seem to care about Peter, just hates how Peter isnt one dimensional, he has thoughts and makes sure he knows everything. so this isnt completely blown out of proportion

Arti

11-15-2006, 09:25 PM

The Human Torch doesn't just control fire, though- he also can control heat. He probably could have lowered their infrared signatures if he wanted.

The shatterproof glass thing, though, really bugs me. Spidey can't break shatterproof glass, but regular bullets can? What's the point of the glass, then?
Didn't Spidey make a pretty big crack in the glass? That would weaken its overall integrity.

jackolover

11-15-2006, 09:33 PM

It was really weird, I felt this sense of excitement and real enjoyment during the whole the whole issue but... After it I just realized that it really wasn't good at all, and that ruined everything for me. I'm really not sure where they were planning on going with this, the FF pages didn't add anything at all...

I felt no exilleration at all while reading it, but on reflection, found it a great read in the context of the arc. Sort of like episode 2 of Star wars - you don't get the kick, but all the people introduced, makes it fit in to the series.

The Lucky One

11-15-2006, 09:37 PM

What heroes do they show at the Anti-reg headquarters? Any obscure goodies we should know about?

There's a chick in purple that I can't peg... that's not Jessica Jones, is it?

Aside from her there's:

Daredevil (seen flipping the coin, so it's the same one that later gets arrested)
Human Torch
Invisible Woman
Sersi
Cap
Patriot
Falcon
Hawkingbird
Hulkling
...Speed Guy? Whatever his name is.
Justice
Hercules
Living Lightning
Cage
Vision
Firebird
Triathlon
Misty Knight
Ultra-Girl
Night Nurse
Stingray
Silhouette
Some trenchoated guy with red circles over his eyes? Couldn't peg him
Tigra

-D

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 09:42 PM

Ultra-girl. (http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/ultgrl.htm)
Dude read the thread, like three or four of your posts just repeated what's already been covered.

Mike Marino

11-15-2006, 09:42 PM

The art looks like it was pretty careful in showing Jester, at least, only getting grazed on the side of his head. Jack certainly looks dead (then again, that's pumpkin guts, not brains), but then again there's other Jacks out there so no one cares. Jester seems to have been left ambiguous on purpose.

-D

I know someone mentioned this a page or two earlier, but when was the last time Punisher left anyone alive? I'm thinking Jester is dead.

Am I the only one who thinks it's fun and cool that in Punisher's return to the MU proper he's back in his older super-heroish look?

Mike Marino

11-15-2006, 09:44 PM

Some trenchoated guy with red circles over his eyes? Couldn't peg him
-D

That's Machine Man.

Thanks to the others who corrected me before when I thought it was Wonderman by the way.

garin

11-15-2006, 09:47 PM

The shatterproof glass thing, though, really bugs me. Spidey can't break shatterproof glass, but regular bullets can? What's the point of the glass, then?I think Spidey could have broken it. The way he was leaping forward probably didn't have the same power behind it as, say, a standing punch.

kidpernicious

11-15-2006, 09:52 PM

There's a chick in purple that I can't peg... that's not Jessica Jones, is it?

Aside from her there's:
-snip-

-D
You forgot Monica Rambeau. MONICA RAMBEAU USED TO LEAD THE AVENGERS!

And Misty Knight's with the Heroes for Hire working for the SHRA, so scratch her off the list far as I can tell.

SnakeEater

11-15-2006, 09:55 PM

can we know confirm that 42 is actually the gateway itself, and not the prison i the Neg Zone?

Pyro

11-15-2006, 10:04 PM

The more I think about it, the more I'm kind of glad Millar ended this issue on somewhat of a somber, quiet moment. Constant cliffhangers doesn't show much versatility.

Sijo

11-15-2006, 10:41 PM

http://www.amazingstoriesnj.com/catalog/images/punisher%20cap%20blood%20and%20glory1.jpg
Oh, please. Punisher was showing up EVERYWHERE in the 90's. He even appeared in a issue of POWER PACK! Besides, the situation is different here: does Cap really want a known murderer on his team? Not the best way to get the public to trust you again, is it?

Btw, difference between Wolverine and Punisher: Wolverine is willing to kill, but doesn't usually go out of his way to do so, and usually kills only extremely dangerous and vile people. ( I still wouldn't have allowed him in the Avengers, but Bendis always gets his way.) Punisher kills anybody he considers a criminal, period- he even killed his partner of many years, Microchip, because he found out 'chip was dealing drugs on the side. The man is insane. Period.

And when did Punisher get Special Ops training? I know he was a war veteran and police officer, but not a spy. His personal training as The Punisher has been in ways to kill people, not infiltrating high-tech fortresses.

overmind

11-15-2006, 10:49 PM

What a terrible book. I don't care what happens in anyway now. Iron Man has four books now: IM, New Avengers, CIvil War, and too a lesser extent Amazing Spider-man. yet, he doesn't seem to be Iron Man in them. I'm not reading anymore of this badly written tripe.

Beast

11-15-2006, 11:00 PM

stillanerd

11-15-2006, 11:08 PM

Okay, if this issue was supposed to be where we finally understand and start to sympathize with the pro-registration heroes, it just comes across as pretty weak. Iron Man is portrayed here as not wanting to fight Spidey, even though HE'S the one who started the fight in the first place (and I'm convinced that unless you read the Amazing Spider-Man Civil War tie-ins, you would swear Spidey had bi-polar disorder. "I don't want to unmask, it would put my wife and aunt in danger...gee, unmasking front of millions was the best idea I ever made...I shouldn't have unmasked" or "I don't like registration...now I do, so I'll beat the crap out of Captain America...but Golitah got killed, so gee, I thought you had things under control Tony...but I'll stand by you...like hell I will! I quit!" etc.).

Iron Man's also not willing to have the new Thunderbolts go after Spidey when HE'S the one who hired them. And yes, Marvel tries to tell make Maria Hill even more of a quasi-bad guy than she already is because she sicked villains after Spidey and killed Kenny (you bastards! :D), as oppossed to say creating a psychotic killer clone. I suppose the other heroes can use the old "we were just following orders" defense.

And how about the salute to moral equivalancy by having the Secret Avengers hire the Punisher, who kills super-villains and criminals, as opposed to hiring Venom, Bullseye, Lady Deathstrike, Taskmaster, etc., who kill innocent people?

And what is it with Millar and siblings acting more like husband and wife? First Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in Ultimates and now Sue and Johnny Storm.

The Foreigner

11-15-2006, 11:10 PM

I know the MAX version is not canon

It is, to my knowledge...

Sean Whitmore

11-15-2006, 11:15 PM

and I'm convinced that unless you read the Amazing Spider-Man Civil War tie-ins, you would swear Spidey had bi-polar disorder.

Why? He started on Tony's side, then Bizarro Thor killed Goliath, then he learned of the Negative Zone prison (mentioned and shown this issue), so he revolted.

And what is it with Millar and siblings acting more like husband and wife? First Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in Ultimates and now Sue and Johnny Storm.

They didn't ACTUALLY get married, you know. Besides that, I don't see how they acted like a husband and wife.

SEAN

The Lucky One

11-15-2006, 11:38 PM

I know someone mentioned this a page or two earlier, but when was the last time Punisher left anyone alive? I'm thinking Jester is dead.

On purpose? Not since the 70s when he used rubber bullets. That doesn't mean he got off a perfect shot, though. The art sort of implies it just grazed Jester. Whatever, really not that important.

-D

unkiedev

11-15-2006, 11:39 PM

The art looks like it was pretty careful in showing Jester, at least, only getting grazed on the side of his head. Jack certainly looks dead (then again, that's pumpkin guts, not brains), but then again there's other Jacks out there so no one cares. Jester seems to have been left ambiguous on purpose.

-D
I feel the same. Bendis did this with Alpha Flight, too. It's as if he wants people dead, but Marvel won't let folks ACTUALLY die any more, lest they should want to bring them out for some purpose.

The Lucky One

11-15-2006, 11:40 PM

You forgot Monica Rambeau. MONICA RAMBEAU USED TO LEAD THE AVENGERS!

I didn't forget her, I just didn't see her. Or, more likely, I mistook her for Misty. (Don't blame me, she's wearing a coat, no costume, and an afro.)

-D

stillanerd

11-16-2006, 12:22 AM

Why? He started on Tony's side, then Bizarro Thor killed Goliath, then he learned of the Negative Zone prison (mentioned and shown this issue), so he revolted.

True, but what I'm saying that unless you read the tie-ins, those transitions Spidey makes become TOO jarring. For example, one would think Spidey would actually be jumping up and down Tony's throat after Golitath was killed instead of his lukewarm response of "Gee, I thought you had things under control, Tony?" from Civil War #4. But then the next issue in the series, we get Spidey's very vocal and very negative reaction to the Negative Zone prison and towards Tony in general in issue #5. Now, unless a person has read the issue of Amazing Spider-Man where Spidey sees the prison for himself and why he finds it bad, then a person who has only been reading Civil War could think Spidey was overreacting, especially in light of how calm and rational Iron Man is being in that scene. Hell, Tony is the one who says Spidey is acting like a "lunatic." In other words, Spidey's shifts in opinion in Civil War by itself come across as being too irratic in behavior.

They didn't ACTUALLY get married, you know. Besides that, I don't see how they acted like a husband and wife.

I was going for sarcasm, in that, in Ultimates, you have one brother and sister pair in Ultimates (Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver) come across more like a pair of lovers or a married couple--it's been implied that SOMETHING is going on being those two--while another brother and sister pairing in Civil War (Johnny and Sue Storm) go undercover as husband and wife, although actually acting like a brother and sister, both comics being written by Millar. This just made wonder what up with Millar and his take on brother-sister relationships, that's all.

Chris Thomas

11-16-2006, 12:23 AM

14 pages of comments and it all makes me dizzy.

my impression

civil war 5--decent. agree with more-adds-than-story. interesting that daredevil aka iron fist uses a new testament reference. seems like he would be all zen/tao etc. and stuff. also--is that reference appropriate? I mean-- tony didn't really betray his friends--he just set up his own rules. or maybe he did betray. echh. makes my head hurt

probably alreay answered--who is betraying the anti-regs with the phone call (now THERE'S a JUDAS!)

one thing that doesn't really add up completely--why use villians as police? I mean--they have the advantage on the anti-regs in terms of superhero fire power and back-up shield capekillers. why do they need bullseye running around helping out? just lock THAT MOFO up in the neg zone.

other takes on this weeks cw action:

1. the iron man cw book was just plain bad. can you say 'mess of a plot'

2. the NA cw book was a little better. but not incredibly.

btw--timeline looks like iron man (almost pre-reg.. almost) then probably NA then cw5. or something like that.

Sean Whitmore

11-16-2006, 12:29 AM

True, but what I'm saying that unless you read the tie-ins, those transitions Spidey makes become TOO jarring.

I getcha, and the tie-ins certainly do add much more to the story. But the mini provides enough to at least understand what's going on, which I think is all it needs to do.

But I do hear what you're saying that we're a long way from, say, Infinity Gauntlet, where you could literally get the entire story from just the mini.

SEAN

garin

11-16-2006, 12:35 AM

It was a little unclear why they needed to mobilize the Thunderbolts to apprehend Spidey. Why did SHIELD consider the situation so critical?

LordEd1976

11-16-2006, 12:36 AM

And when did Punisher get Special Ops training? I know he was a war veteran and police officer, but not a spy. His personal training as The Punisher has been in ways to kill people, not infiltrating high-tech fortresses.

Punisher did recieve Special Forces training while in Nam. Following his fourth tour of duty, he was an instructor at a camp somewhere in upstate New York. He's never been a cop. He was a cop in the movies but as far as I know he was never a cop in the comics. He did study for the priesthood though.

He has infiltrated buildings in the past so he may have a slight chance. However, one has to wonder how far he can go before he starts just opening up a can of firefight.

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 12:36 AM

I didn't forget her, I just didn't see her. Or, more likely, I mistook her for Misty. (Don't blame me, she's wearing a coat, no costume, and an afro.)

-D
You can see her costume pretty clearly under her trenchcoat actually, and the trenchcoat is pretty much what she wears now so it sort of IS the costume. But I was mainly just trying to make a joke for Nextwave readers.

Sean Whitmore

11-16-2006, 12:39 AM

Why did SHIELD consider the situation so critical?

The most important reason is the information that Peter could supply to the anti-reggers. Besides that, it would probably be a bad P.R. hit (both to the public and the hero communities) to have such a high profile pro-regger switch sides. Even Cap remarked that Spidey was a very influential "get".

SEAN

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 12:50 AM

probably alreay answered--who is betraying the anti-regs with the phone call (now THERE'S a JUDAS!)
Pretty clearly Tigra, presumably one of the capes that came over from the pro side after Goliath's death.
one thing that doesn't really add up completely--why use villians as police? I mean--they have the advantage on the anti-regs in terms of superhero fire power and back-up shield capekillers. why do they need bullseye running around helping out? just lock THAT MOFO up in the neg zone.
I'd guess it's mainly because the 50 State Initiative needs recruits, and picking up ones with a fair amount of experience in superpowered conflict can't hurt. Of course, them being villains probably can.

stillanerd

11-16-2006, 01:07 AM

Pretty clearly Tigra, presumably one of the capes that came over from the pro side after Goliath's death.

Or, perhaps she was a mole all along. She WAS the only one of the pro-registered heroes who did question Tony Stark directly about what they were doing in Civil War #2

I'd guess it's mainly because the 50 State Initiative needs recruits, and picking up ones with a fair amount of experience in superpowered conflict can't hurt. Of course, them being villains probably can.

Well, when you got clones of Thor, why even bother recruiting anybody? Have we forgotten all those other clones in storage from Civil War #4?

one thing that doesn't really add up completely--why use villians as police? I mean--they have the advantage on the anti-regs in terms of superhero fire power and back-up shield capekillers. why do they need bullseye running around helping out? just lock THAT MOFO up in the neg zone.

That was the point Maria Hill made essentially, saying that they don't actually need the Thunderbolts if they use S.H.I.E.L.D. troops instead. Which of course begs the question how come S.H.I.E.L.D. wasn't this effective prior to Civil War?

Weapon Ick

11-16-2006, 01:08 AM

Things I liked about this issue:
Johnny and Sue Storm as brunettes (and the incestuous overtones made it even hotter)
Iron Man's eyes behind his mask.
Spiderman bonking his head on the glass.
Spiderman being stoned while getting stomped.
Punisher killing some bad guys (I think they are dead. A pumpkin will die if you shoot it. Trust me on this)
"Daredevil's" Judas line.

Like everyone else, I was confused about Machine Man cause he resembled Wonder Man so much.

Also, what happened to Cable? Didn't he quit with Stature and Nighthawk? He's not with them when they're signing up on the other side.

I don't think Banana Man is Punisher. He seems to know more than the Punisher does.

Sean Whitmore

11-16-2006, 01:13 AM

Well, when you got clones of Thor, why even bother recruiting anybody? Have we forgotten all those other clones in storage from Civil War #4?

They're gonna need leaders.

SEAN

stillanerd

11-16-2006, 01:24 AM

They're gonna need leaders.

Well, if they're anything like Clor, more like good anger management courses.

Kevinroc

11-16-2006, 01:26 AM

Well, if they're anything like Clor, more like good anger management courses.

Never worked for Bruce Banner. :p

Sean Whitmore

11-16-2006, 01:33 AM

Well, if they're anything like Clor, more like good anger management courses.

What they need now is to clone a bunch of Leonard Samsons.

SEAN

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 01:36 AM

That was the point Maria Hill made essentially, saying that they don't actually need the Thunderbolts if they use S.H.I.E.L.D. troops instead. Which of course begs the question how come S.H.I.E.L.D. wasn't this effective prior to Civil War?
Don't misquote me foo.

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 01:41 AM

Or, perhaps she was a mole all along. She WAS the only one of the pro-registered heroes who did question Tony Stark directly about what they were doing in Civil War #2
So....wait. What? Tigra's with the anti-regs, phoning secretively on a Stark cell, while previously being seen working with the pro-regs earlier in Civil War. So clearly she's a mole working for the pros having infiltrated the anti camp. But are you suggesting she's really a triple agent mole working for the anti-regs pretending to be a double agent mole working for the pro-regs while hanging with the anti-regs...?

Miss Kitty Fantastico

11-16-2006, 01:55 AM

Hmm. Solid issue, but I have to admit, I wasn't as blown away as I've been by the others so far.

Inevitably in a multi-part story of any kind, there have to be some parts that are more set-up than payoff, which is what this felt like. Pieces being moved into place for the big showdown. It was solid, strong storytelling, and the next couple of issues will be better for it, but... I dunno, I just wish things had been bigger somehow.

Case in point, Spidey's battle with the Thunderbolts... Looking at it as a writer rather than a reader, I just can't agree with the decision to make it just Jester and Jack. It could've easily been all of the big villains - say Punisher lobs in a few smoke bombs after nailing J&J, and escapes with Parker under cover of them. And, frankly, the cover showed the big boys - Venom and Goblin and Bullseye. I felt a bit cheated that we didn't get to see that. I don't know if that was the original plan, and the battle got downsized to make room for other material... If so, tricky choice. There's not a lot in the issue that I think could've really been dispensed with, but a nice, big battle, with Spidey fighting like a mad thing, and yet being beaten like a lion being dragged down by a pack of jackals, I feel like that's an opportunity missed.

(In fact, the only thing that did seem like it wasn't the most efficient use of space was the double-page splash of 42. I suppose it was necessary, even dramatic, from the point of view of the miniseries alone, but I've been reading all the tie-ins, and thus I've seen the thing already.)

I really liked the Iron Man/Spider-Man face-off (even if it didn't show Iron Man having built an override into the Iron Spider suit, which I thought was all but a certainty). ASM should take lessons from this, the way Peter rebelled without Tony having to act all evil. I have no doubt that when Tony asked Peter about MJ and Aunt May, he meant that, as a fugitive, Peter would essentially have to give up having a life with them, unless he wanted to make them fugitives too. But it's perfectly believable that Peter heard it as a threat to them, and the whole thing just deteriorated.

So, some more Thunderbolts... and yay! Joystick is alive and among them! Having not seen hide nor hair of her in previews, and given current goings-on in the Thunderbolts title, I'd been seriously worried that the adorable little psycho was going to be killed off. If Ellis includes her, I may just continue buying the book... and if not, at least there's a chance she'll show up elsewhere.

So, Tigra is a turncoat... that's interesting. But I can buy it, without looking at her as a traitor - she's always had a very strong association with law enforcement (even before becoming a cop herself), and y'know what, a lot of the points being made in favour of the pro-reg side at the moment... they're dead on right. I'm not just agreeing because my beloved She-Hulk said so - Registration isn't about how super-heroes should operate, it's about how super-heroes will be allowed to operate. Not by SHIELD, but by the voters - everyone wanting to go back to the 'good old days' pre-reg forgets that they're in a new world now, where an all-round swell guy like Johnny Storm can get beat into a coma just for having powers. It ain't right, but it's a fact, and there's a really strong case to be made that Tony Stark is saving the world, by doing what's necessary to salvage the situation, and lay the groundwork for heroes to once more be trusted and respected. And Cap's side has no answer to that. I can completely believe Tigra, with the best of intentions, infiltrating the anti-reg camp in order to bring them down, as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Of course, she loses points for using a phone with 'Stark' written on it, in the middle of Cap's headquarters - sure it's probably just a brand name, but jeez girl, buy a cheap Nokia, at least it won't have the name of your supposed enemy on it.

Why does he call it '42'? I'm not entirely convinced that that little exchange was just a throwaway joke. Speaking of humour though, I did get a big chuckle out of Sue and Johnny being 'married', and the pair of them needling each other over it. That was a nice little human moment.

Another thing that most definitely wasn't just a throwaway - what's Cap got in mind for Hulkling and Sue? Ten to one Sue's off to Atlantis to get Namor on board, but what's in Arizona that Cap wants? I'm still wary of him, the way he's been since he took that beating - I don't know whether he's looking for a way to win that doesn't involve a big, destructive fight... or if he's looking for a way to absolutely flatten the opposition.

All up... could've been bigger, but it looks like a solid foundation to build on, to start wrapping this baby up.

Weapon Ick

11-16-2006, 02:08 AM

Captain America doesn't say that he's deploying Sue Storm to Arizona with Hulkling; just that he has an equally pressing assignment for her. I'm gonna agree with the others on this thread that she is probably going to see Namor. I'm sure he will be pleased that she's left Reed.

I think whatever happens in Arizona is going to take place in Civil War: The Return. Hulkling should probably be involved with who ever the cosmic character is that will be returning. I'm guessing.

Cthulhudrew

11-16-2006, 02:09 AM

Also, what happened to Cable? Didn't he quit with Stature and Nighthawk? He's not with them when they're signing up on the other side.

Cable went back to dealing with the problems of Rumekistan (where he's president) and Providence (his island nation), and had a conversation with the President about the Registration Act (he's not against it in principle, like the Antis, but he disagrees with where it is going to lead- the 50 State Initiative- as he's seen the future that slippery slope will help to bring about). He's not actually an Anti-Reg, despite helping Cap and the others a bit.

bulbasteve

11-16-2006, 02:13 AM

So....wait. What? Tigra's with the anti-regs, phoning secretively on a Stark cell, while previously being seen working with the pro-regs earlier in Civil War. So clearly she's a mole working for the pros having infiltrated the anti camp. But are you suggesting she's really a triple agent mole working for the anti-regs pretending to be a double agent mole working for the pro-regs while hanging with the anti-regs...?

Worked for Spider-Women :p

I think...actually I'm still confused about that...wait LOOK OVER THERE, NINJAS!

yeah I'd go with just being undercover too.

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 02:18 AM

Another thing that most definitely wasn't just a throwaway - what's Cap got in mind for Hulkling and Sue? Ten to one Sue's off to Atlantis to get Namor on board, but what's in Arizona that Cap wants? I'm still wary of him, the way he's been since he took that beating - I don't know whether he's looking for a way to win that doesn't involve a big, destructive fight... or if he's looking for a way to absolutely flatten the opposition.
Yeah, that Arizona thing, really wanna hear what people know about 616 Arizona, cuz honestly I can't recall jack. I did turn up through the Marvel directory that the Thing's aunt and uncle live there though...

Actually also was reminded that it's where the Proudstars are from (Camp Verde where Cable and X-Force once based their operations), and found out it's where the Leader blew up Middletown with a gamma bomb turning it into Gammatown, and where Kang once tried to set up a campaign to rule America starting from Tombstone in 1873 but was stopped by some timetraveling Avengers. Anyone else know anything pertinent about AZ?

stillanerd

11-16-2006, 02:37 AM

Don't misquote me foo.

Who are you, Mr. T? Seriously, I corrected it.

So....wait. What? Tigra's with the anti-regs, phoning secretively on a Stark cell, while previously being seen working with the pro-regs earlier in Civil War. So clearly she's a mole working for the pros having infiltrated the anti camp. But are you suggesting she's really a triple agent mole working for the anti-regs pretending to be a double agent mole working for the pro-regs while hanging with the anti-regs...?

Okay, maybe I'm overcomplicating things a wee bit too much (plus I'm tired). But still, for a character who did openly question Tony Stark about their justification for doing this back in issue #2, responding to Tony's line about rounding up the inexperienced, the glory seekers, and the youngsters with her sarcastic "Does that include Cap?" which seemed to me she had her doubts even then. So what has made her continue to be such a die-hard supporter even after the death of Golitah at the hands of Clor?

kidpernicious

11-16-2006, 02:58 AM

So what has made her continue to be such a die-hard supporter even after the death of Golitah at the hands of Clor?
What's funny is the part in #5 where Nighthawk actually specifically brings up Goliath's death as what finally pushed him to abandon the anti side. So you decide to join the resistance, fight for what you believe in, keep doing the superhero thing the way you've always done it, all that... but then what? Bill's dead, time to call it quits. Okay Mister Stark, the world's different now so sign me up and please don't kill me. Bwha?

Personally wouldn't imagine seeing a friend and ally get killed in the name of a cause would end up pushing anyone to oppose that cause, rather than rally people to it. Which it has. And yeah maybe Tigra did genuinely defect to Cap's camp along with the others, but that particular panel with the cell would be a hell of a red herring to swallow.

Nate Palm

11-16-2006, 02:59 AM

Geez how far is Stark gonna fall. It's not like Spidey said he was going to join Cap. He just wanted out of Starks nut job psycho plan to lock away heroes in a secret prison in the Negative Zone. So Spidey wanted to leave the Avengers and thats makes it open season on him? It's sad when the Punisher is more of a hero than Iron Man.

CMBMOOL

11-16-2006, 03:39 AM

And how about the salute to moral equivalancy by having the Secret Avengers hire the Punisher, who kills super-villains and criminals, as opposed to hiring Venom, Bullseye, Lady Deathstrike, Taskmaster, etc., who kill innocent people?

I think this is where people neglected to consider in this issue seeing the Punisher a mass murder who isn't under nano control even though he only kills bad guys on the anti-side as opposed to the Villains that Stark has on nano control, that is responsible for many murders on many innocent people and often themselves, on the pro side. :(

CMBMOOL

11-16-2006, 03:42 AM

Arilou

11-16-2006, 04:15 AM

Minor thingie:

Spidey has been shown capable of breaking through the glasss at Star Tower earlier (when he threw Wolverine through a window :p) I guess Stark had it reinforced :p

Weapon Ick

11-16-2006, 04:17 AM

Jmacq1

11-16-2006, 05:39 AM

I have a question.

This issue has been hyped as the issue that would show the pro-reg side in a better light. The creators have been saying that #5 was going to portray Iron Man and his allies as more reasonable and maybe garner more support and sympathy to thier cause.

So what do you all think? Was that accomplished with this issue? The critisism has been that the anti side have been made out to be the heroes in the main book and mainly the peripherals. This issue was supposed to counter that in a way. Did it work?

Bearing in mind I haven't actually read it yet, but from the comments here:

No, barely at all.

There were a couple things that were almost handled well:

Stark trying to talk Peter down instead of beating the crap out of him was good. Unfortunately it was negated by SHIELD getting sicced on him seconds later, and the T-Bolts getting sicced on him minutes later. As noted above, Peter never said he was going to join Cap. He just said he wanted out of the Avengers. Apparently that is now a federal crime. So much for "no really, SHIELD doesn't own you body and soul once you sign up!"

Nice to finally see them say what the 50 States Initiative is all about...however it's undermined by the fact that most people guessed it months ago, and that it still doesn't provide any justification in and of itself for the extreme methods and tactics employed by the Pro-Registration heroes.

So no...every thing they (may or may not) have tried to do to present the Pro-Reg more sympathetically in this particular title (the main "Civil War" series) was undermined by further actions taken.

Peeps

11-16-2006, 06:05 AM

ok, granted i work in the computer field, so i am no scientist by any stretch, but when the capekillers shot at spiderman and he goes out the window.

the next panel IM is standing there with a shitload of glass at his feet.

if you are shooting outside a window from inside a room, shouldnt the glass explode outward?

Agent Helix

11-16-2006, 06:13 AM

Most glass sort of shatters downwards, rather than exploding in one direction or the other. Unless there's an object of significant size and force smashing through it from one direction.

Hiromi

11-16-2006, 07:39 AM

What they need now is to clone a bunch of Leonard Samsons.

SEAN

heh

If there's one thing I love about this event its that the good green haired doc's getting some A list screen time.

Issue was good, Iron Man's speech in the beginning was one of the better Pro Reg moments I've seen thus far(outside of the other Iron Man centered stuff that came this week), so kudos to Millar, my opinion of Stark's managed to recover over the last two issues. Punisher's role got me giddy, and this is from someone who doesn't normally read much of him.

ivesaidway2much

11-16-2006, 08:19 AM

What's funny is the part in #5 where Nighthawk actually specifically brings up Goliath's death as what finally pushed him to abandon the anti side. So you decide to join the resistance, fight for what you believe in, keep doing the superhero thing the way you've always done it, all that... but then what? Bill's dead, time to call it quits. Okay Mister Stark, the world's different now so sign me up and please don't kill me. Bwha?

Personally wouldn't imagine seeing a friend and ally get killed in the name of a cause would end up pushing anyone to oppose that cause, rather than rally people to it. Which it has. And yeah maybe Tigra did genuinely defect to Cap's camp along with the others, but that particular panel with the cell would be a hell of a red herring to swallow. This is why I think Nighthawk and Stature are spies for the anti-regs. There was just something so un-genuine about the way Nighthawk said leaving the anti-regs was the hardest decision of his life. And I think I sensed some foreboding in when Stature said she wanted to do her job to the best of her abilities.

But what I found concerning about the issue is the way Millar went about trying to make the pro-regs seem more sympathetic. He just used the same tactic writers have been using with the anti-regs. He had the pro-regs present their points, and then never gave the anti-regs a chance to respond or simply had them refuse to respond. This one-sided arguing technique gets weaker everytime I see it.

Slumber Hulk

11-16-2006, 08:40 AM

Another sign Stark is going insane:

He crashes through walls of his building to tackle Peter, uprovoked.
Stand up, dusts himself off and say, "Can't we just talk about this?"

TinMan

11-16-2006, 08:57 AM

Another sign Stark is going insane:

He crashes through walls of his building to tackle Peter, uprovoked.
Stand up, dusts himself off and say, "Can't we just talk about this?"

Werd, I've been concerned about how well that was planned (by the creative teams that is) for awhile now and indeed it came out making no sense.

This issue was ok overall. I love the concept of CW but the execution is really losing me now.

Omega Alpha

11-16-2006, 09:02 AM

Sijo

11-16-2006, 09:13 AM

Case in point, Spidey's battle with the Thunderbolts... Looking at it as a writer rather than a reader, I just can't agree with the decision to make it just Jester and Jack. It could've easily been all of the big villains - say Punisher lobs in a few smoke bombs after nailing J&J, and escapes with Parker under cover of them. And, frankly, the cover showed the big boys - Venom and Goblin and Bullseye. I felt a bit cheated that we didn't get to see that. I don't know if that was the original plan, and the battle got downsized to make room for other material... If so, tricky choice. There's not a lot in the issue that I think could've really been dispensed with, but a nice, big battle, with Spidey fighting like a mad thing, and yet being beaten like a lion being dragged down by a pack of jackals, I feel like that's an opportunity missed.
I think the full battle will be shown in one of the Spider-Man titles. It's likely that Spidey was beaten badly, got away and was found by Jester and Jack when the Punisher found them. Oh, and they used them because they wanted to show Punisher killing some villains, but most of the "Thunderbolts" (like Goblin or Bullseye) are too major to let him kill off. So he ended up offing the third-raters.
I'm not just agreeing because my beloved She-Hulk said so - Registration isn't about how super-heroes should operate, it's about how super-heroes will be allowed to operate. Not by SHIELD, but by the voters - everyone wanting to go back to the 'good old days' pre-reg forgets that they're in a new world now, where an all-round swell guy like Johnny Storm can get beat into a coma just for having powers. It ain't right, but it's a fact, and there's a really strong case to be made that Tony Stark is saving the world, by doing what's necessary to salvage the situation, and lay the groundwork for heroes to once more be trusted and respected. And Cap's side has no answer to that. I can completely believe Tigra, with the best of intentions, infiltrating the anti-reg camp in order to bring them down, as quickly and painlessly as possible.
And why is it a New World now? Because of the Stamford incident? It has already been proven (in Wolverine) that the blame wasn't the New Warriors' (despite what Stark claimed in his series- that issue also pointed out how Stark himself could've been used as the "poster boy" for the SHRA for having caused the deaths of a planeful of people.) Of course the public might not realize that- so, why isn't anybody trying to defend the heroes, instead of just going around fighting? I know that Millar said that it was "the straw that broke the camel's back"- WITHOUT saying what else was on that camel's back. Oh and what about all the times the heroes saved the world, why aren't they on that camel as well? The sad thing is, the world is STILL going to be imperiled in ways that only the superheroes -not the Government or SHIELD- will know how to handle.
Why does he call it '42'? I'm not entirely convinced that that little exchange was just a throwaway joke. I think this a jab at DC's "52". Hey, at least Marvel already revealed their mystery number, while DC has not even given us any good clues yet. :p
Another thing that most definitely wasn't just a throwaway - what's Cap got in mind for Hulkling and Sue? Ten to one Sue's off to Atlantis to get Namor on board, but what's in Arizona that Cap wants? I'm still wary of him, the way he's been since he took that beating - I don't know whether he's looking for a way to win that doesn't involve a big, destructive fight... or if he's looking for a way to absolutely flatten the opposition.
Yeah, just WHAT is Cap's plan? Is protecting the other heroes his ONLY goal? How will that solve the problem with SHRA? And could it be a tactician like him could not have considered the possibility of having infiltrators on his team? Let's hope they explain this better before the series ends.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Civil War is Millar's idea of how the Marvel Universe works, than anything done by actual research. Too many errors in continuity and character interpretation. He may THINK he's being correct, but he may be too biased to realize it. Ego-stroking from Marvel probably doesn't help, either.

Slumber Hulk

11-16-2006, 09:16 AM

Werd, I've been concerned about how well that was planned (by the creative teams that is) for awhile now and indeed it came out making no sense.

This issue was ok overall. I love the concept of CW but the execution is really losing me now.

Yeah, you'd think someone would have thought this thru better. I know there was a month between shipping dates, but this transition is ugly.

Thursaiz

11-16-2006, 09:24 AM

I was really disappointed with this issue. I'm going to keep buying, but I have to complain for a moment;

- the two new 'Thunderbolts' that actually catch Spidey aren't even on the cover
- nobody even mentions the fact that somehow the Punisher was able to just walk into their new 'secret headquarters' without anyone knowing
- in the last Spider-Man issue, Aunt May and Mary Jane are leaving just when Iron Man shows up. Why does Peter say "they are as far away as possible". Who does he think he is fooling?
- Daredevil/Iron Fist is nabbed. How? Did he give up?
- Why would they put a portal to the Negative Zone in the middle of a regular prison?
- How did Susan and Johnny get in a fight with SHIELD?
- Where in the Hel is Thor!!!!

rZi

11-16-2006, 10:12 AM

Thursaiz has listed my complaints to, although all in all i did enjoy it.I was hoping for an apperance from venom/norman but hey...i guess i can wait for thunderbolts ='(

Miss Kitty Fantastico

11-16-2006, 10:38 AM

And why is it a New World now? Because of the Stamford incident?
Yes - not because of what it was (as you say, the New Warriors weren't wholly to blame - they were negligent regardless, but the scale of Nitro's ability was impossible for them to predict), but because of what it did. The general public became aware, and afraid, in a massive, pervasive way, of the potential dangers of superhuman combat.

I mean, consider 9/11 - horrific as it was, the awareness it brought about of terrorism as a threat far outstrips the actual, physical consequences, the damage and loss of life, compared to other such attacks. Terrorism had been going on for decades - heck, centuries, millennia, Rome did a hell of a number on Carthage as I recall. It wasn't the death toll that made 9/11 the world-changing event we know, it was the way that it brought terrorism to the immediate attention of a segment of the world that had previously, more or less, ignored it. (I'm simplifying, of course - this is for analogy, I'm not looking to debate 9/11 in detail.)

That's what Stamford was. The SHRA isn't a response to 600 dead people, it's a response to the PR hit that the superhero movement took that day. It's Stark's belief that superheroes, at least a fair percentage of them, require public support in order to function. If the FF and the Avengers and all the 'public heroes' had to do their jobs while keeping away from the cops, and avoiding a hostile public... well, they wouldn't be able to do their jobs. They'd be too busy hiding from police cars and trying not to end up in hospital like Johnny Storm if anyone caught sight of them in an alley when their back was turned.

That's the problem they faced - like police, heroes need some measure of public trust. If a neighbourhood is hostile to cops, you can throw ten times the manpower and resources at it, and still not achieve the level of crime control you'd get in a neighbourhood where citizens cooperate with cops when needed. The 'neighbourhood' had turned hostile, and was demanding action. I think the pro-reg heroes who've made this point were very correct in saying that if Stark, or someone, hadn't spearheaded the SHRA - if heroes had tried to just go on under the old status quo - it would have only worsened the PR problem, to the point where the government would be locking up everyone with a power. The worse the problem, the harsher the solution tends to be. So Stark did what he thought was best to keep the problem from getting worse, and begin restoring public trust in heroes.

An easy way to conceptualise the two sides is to compare it to the notion of safe injecting rooms for drug addicts. Cap is the zero-tolerance approach - no compromise, no engagement with the 'problem,' just resistance and persistence in the 'moral high ground' position - in analogy, saying that drugs are illegal, and nothing at all should be done that even looks like aiding people using them. Iron Man's approach is harm-minimization - to engage with the problem, and try to find a solution that'll start having positive effects immediately - in analogy, rationalising that it's better to save lives now, and then worry about the drug problem, than to just go all-out at the drug problem regardless of the consequences.

I know that Millar said that it was "the straw that broke the camel's back"- WITHOUT saying what else was on that camel's back. Oh and what about all the times the heroes saved the world, why aren't they on that camel as well?
Well there's been references to other major events that've soured public opinion, in books like The Illuminati - Disassembled has been mentioned, and House of M, Fury's Secret War, the Hulk trashing Vegas or whatever it was. But if you ask me, the overwhelming pressure on the 'camel's back' was... superheroes. People like to feel safe, and having people battling mega-powerful villains on the nightly news - even if they win - doesn't engender a feeling of safety. Even if the heroes win, the mere fact that superhero/villain conflicts occur must be a negative, in the eyes of the public, because it reminds them that there are these godawful menaces roaming around. It's a sad, but very real, phenomenon that the general public can come to resent the presence of their guardians, simply because their constant association with battling a problem makes them a reminder of that problem. It happens with soldiers, police, anyone who engages in a 'battle' that the average citizen is more comfortable living in blissful ignorance of. Sure, popular heroes will be feted when they achieve something worthwhile, some will have good reputations, and we're all very grateful when they stop Galactus from eating the North American continent and picking his teeth with Florida... but beneath it all, if Marvel Earth is anything like the real one, there must be a simmering sense of resentment, an unrealistic, almost childish desire to not be confronted with the reality that we live in a dangerous world.

Edited to add: of course, the real question for #5 is... is whoever did that rockin' parody of #4 going to do this issue too?

Jmacq1

11-16-2006, 10:52 AM

XPac

11-16-2006, 11:20 AM

In short, the general public is fickle, short-sighted, and collectively stupid.

It's far easier to punish the people that are easier to locate and push around than it would be to realize that it's the actual villains that are the real problem.

All the SHRAs and so called "good intentions" in the world aren't going to stop Dr. Doom or the Red Skull from launching their next scheme, whatever it may be. And unless Marvel plans on having heroes fight heroes from now until eternity, it's not going to put any real damper on lesser villains either, since there wouldn't be a whole lot of interesting stuff to write comics about if the MU became super-utopia.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with the registration.

It catered to the publics "flavor of the month" resulting in a poorly designed (and probably unconstitutional) bill being hotshotted through congress before the publics attention turned to something else.

The public forgot that the heroes were heroes... a quickie Skrull Invasion will remind the public of that again more effectively than a registration ever could. Moreso than having heroes publically fly around with "cape killers" fighting and killing other heroes. If anything I think the registration did more harm than good to the reputation of the heroes. I don't think heroes in marvel ever looked worse than they do right now.

Xero

11-16-2006, 11:37 AM

I think Daredevil (Iron Fist) was supposed to get captured. They'll put him in a cell designed to hold Daredevil and not Iron Fist, he's probably supposed to help facilitate the breakout from inside.

anthony!

11-16-2006, 11:42 AM

why is it that everyone can find Cap's hiding place except for Tony?

Given Tigra's infiltration, I think its safe to say he knows about it and is just waiting for the right moment.

Hulk Strongest One

11-16-2006, 11:43 AM

He has the Black ops training to sneak into the building. The anti-reg guys could use that.

Only if the Civil War writers forget about the automated defenses Reed built into his buildings. They're fully capable of capturing any Spiderman rogues' gallery level villains, disarming or disabling them, and dumping them into a cell.

Which wouldn't surprise me. They completely forgot about it when the amped Wolverine invaded a couple of years ago, making the building and the FF jobber to him. :rolleyes:

So I'm sure Sue will suddenly know all the details of the defense so they can be planned for. :rolleyes:

XPac

11-16-2006, 11:57 AM

Only if the Civil War writers forget about the automated defenses Reed built into his buildings. They're fully capable of capturing any Spiderman rogues' gallery level villains, disarming or disabling them, and dumping them into a cell.

Which wouldn't surprise me. They completely forgot about it when the amped Wolverine invaded a couple of years ago, making the building and the FF jobber to him. :rolleyes:

So I'm sure Sue will suddenly know all the details of the defense so they can be planned for. :rolleyes:

In New Avengers I think we had a perfect example of how automated defenses can be worked around. It's not the first time a superhero HQ has been infiltrated, and it certainly won't be the last.

Rotter

11-16-2006, 12:01 PM

Given Tigra's infiltration, I think its safe to say he knows about it and is just waiting for the right moment.

Exactly. Why assume that Cap knows she's there? Tigra can track people by scent over miles and miles...it's possible that she just sniffed around a battle site until she came across Eau de Captain America (or Hercules or Invisible Woman), and followed it right to Cap's Super Secret Klubhouse.

There's also no reason to assume that she's joined the resistance or is a mole. Stalking prey unheard and unseen is supposed to be one of those things she's good at.

If the plot point is "Despite all of Cap's precautions, one of the Pro-Reg forces finally manages to locate the Secret Avengers' safehouse; the moment the entire team is together in one place, s/he signals Iron Man to kick off a surprise attack" Millar picked a good character to deliver it.

XPac

11-16-2006, 12:06 PM

Well, why assume that Cap knows she's there? Tigra can track people by scent over miles and miles...it's possible that she just sniffed around a battle site until she came across Eau de Captain America (or Hercules or Invisible Woman), and followed it right to Cap's Super Secret Klubhouse.

There's also no reason to assume that she's joined the resistance or is a mole. Stalking prey unheard and unseen is supposed to be one of those things she's good at.

If the plot point is "Despite all of Cap's precautions, one of the Pro-Reg forces finally manages to locate the Secret Avengers' safehouse; the moment the entire team is together in one place, s/he signals Iron Man to kick off a surprise attack" Millar picked a good character to deliver it.

The interesting thing about Tigra is that there are multiple ways to interpet that scene.

She's on the cover of Black Panther 23 with a bunch of other ANTI guys so for all we know she's been a spy for BP from day one. Or maybe she did switch teams.

It's an interesting scenario.