Which heroes have the best villain potential? [Archive]

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Polaris27

11-11-2006, 04:55 PM

The thread about Marvel's greatest villain got me thinking-which hero could be the uber-threat to the Marvel Universe if he/she decided to switch sides (intentionally, not like Scarlet Witch House of M stuff)? I would have to go with Dr. Strange. With his bag of tricks, he could probably take on any Marvel hero and win (if written properly). So what do you guys think?

brundlefly

11-11-2006, 05:02 PM

Stark could potentially be the Lex Luthor of the MU (genius level intellect, great strategist, very adept at manipulating others, monstrous level of wealth, resources, and connections). Plus he'd have the advantage of knowing most of the heroes' strengths and weaknesses from years of teaming with them. We're frankly already seeing that in CIVIL WAR; I just don't agree with the way he's generally being presented (war-profiteering control freak). A lot of heroes have the resources and potental to be huge menaces, but Stark, like Strage, is a protector and an altruist, not a would-be tyrant. Both would need a convincing major storyline rationale or motive to suddenly "go bad" and turn on their friends, if we're barring Wanda-style insanity as a motivator.

RichStanz

11-11-2006, 05:27 PM

I honestly think its Iron Man.

Regardless of people's critiques of how he is being written, I enjoy the recent phrasing that he is a "futurist" - he plans ahead in a way, that nobody else considered. He has the resources, trust, support, and the desire to do what he wants/needs. Beyond the MU Lex Luthor, I'd say he was the American Doctor Doom.

He could be (and already is) the best villian: because he believes what he is doing is right.

brundlefly

11-11-2006, 05:36 PM

Regardless of people's critiques of how he is being written, I enjoy the recent phrasing that he is a "futurist" - he plans ahead in a way, that nobody else considered. He has the resources, trust, support, and the desire to do what he wants/needs. Beyond the MU Lex Luthor, I'd say he was the American Doctor Doom.

He could be (and already is) the best villian: because he believes what he is doing is right.

Well, Lex is the closest DC analogue to Doom and since neither Lex nor Tony use magic or have their own country, instead run their own corporations and both have held office in the US government, I thought Lex was the more apt comparison. But I agree with you that Tony as a villain would be an equivalent to those two, as they see themselves as noble, progressive leaders and that the world would be a better place with them in the driver's seat. I could definitely see that as Tony's motivation (futurism, making the world a better place under his vision) for going "bad."

Omega Alpha

11-11-2006, 08:01 PM

I could see Stark becoming a villain too. How about Namor? He was always in this grey area, and has control over 75% of the world, he could be a hell of a threat.

For tomorrow's villain, Hellion, from New X-men, has quite potential. An uber-powerful telepath/telekinetic which has passed through every X-men training and know all the philosophy, but still rejects it and wants to go in his own way.

RichStanz

11-11-2006, 09:16 PM

Well, Lex is the closest DC analogue to Doom and since neither Lex nor Tony use magic or have their own country

...yet;)

President Iron Man in '08.

StoneGold

11-11-2006, 09:37 PM

Sentry is probably the obvious choice, since that's the whole reason they had him forget who he was in the first place.

marshal99

11-11-2006, 10:07 PM

Stark have already been the villain in the crossing.

As seen in the exiles , a villainous Silver Surfer is deadly.

brundlefly

11-11-2006, 11:12 PM

...yet;)

President Iron Man in '08.

Heh. Who would be his VP? Reed?

Miss Kitty Fantastico

11-12-2006, 08:24 AM

Heh. Who would be his VP? Reed?
The Thor clone :p

I think any hero who fights for ideology, rather than practical reasons, has it in them to become a villain. Intangible concepts are just that - intangible - meaning that it's very difficult to be faced with concrete proof that you're doing something wrong. Someone fighting to save innocent lives only need be confronted with a dead innocent, killed by their actions, to be given pause, and at least reassess themselves. But someone fighting for 'a better tomorrow,' or some such thing? Potentially very difficult to dissuade them if they start getting over-zealous.

Iron Man's an obvious example - in the name of whatever better future he has in mind, he's willing to do a number on the present. And you can't really prove him wrong. You can say his actions are causing pain and hardship in the present, but who can say how the future will turn out? Given the man's obvious intelligence, it'd be no simple matter to convince him that he's got it wrong, and his actions will definitely not bring about some positive effect down the track.

Doctor Strange, for similar reasons - with so few people really conversant with magic (and I'm not sure there's anyone who's really his equal), who could really stand up to him and tell him he's wrong, if he suddenly gets it into his head that New York has to be destroyed in order to prevent some magical catastrophe only he can predict?

Also, I'd be wary of anyone who's very, very confident in themselves, and doesn't screw up a lot. Reed, for example - no matter how crazy things get, Reed somehow usually manages to pull his elastic arse out of the fire and save the day. No-one's right all the time, but heap enough success on someone, and they might start thinking they are. Of course, Reed is feeling less than wonderful about himself at the moment, which ironically may prevent him going off the deep end down the track.

Same goes for this Cho kid in Hulk #100, though - he's perfectly willing to put lives at risk because he believes he can calculate the outcome of a situation so well that he knows his hapless victims won't die. And being ridiculously intelligent, so far he's right. When he does foul up - and everyone does, one day - he could easily cause a hell of a disaster. And if he's too enamoured with his own intelligence, he might then heap disaster upon disaster trying to make things turn out right, rather than just face the fact that he got it wrong to begin with. Even if all the heroes of the Earth end up fighting him... well, they're not as smart as him, are they, so obviously it's them who've got it wrong. The kid's scary.

Wild Card13

11-12-2006, 09:36 AM

Green Goblin

11-12-2006, 10:18 AM

Didn't xavier became a villain with onslaught

DDM

11-12-2006, 10:54 AM

Didn't xavier became a villain with onslaught

Charles Xavier became a villain known as simply the Entity in Uncanny X-Men #106 & X-Men-Micronauts #1-4. The Entity is Xavier's dark side; he destroyed a universe in the microverse.

Onslaught is an amalgam of Xavier & Magneto, but it became a separate character completely; therefore, neither Magneto nor Xaiver is responsible for Onslaught's actions.

jmc247

11-12-2006, 11:18 AM

Wolverine has the best villain potential. He is becoming so powerful now adays he could probably take on the Silver Surfer.

Tobias March

11-12-2006, 11:18 AM

I would think someone like Spider-Man would have the best potential as a villain. For one thing he's quite trusted within the hero community, he would be the perfect Judas.

brundlefly

11-12-2006, 11:34 AM

Didn't xavier became a villain with onslaught

In the initial Mark Waid version/concept of Onslaught, yes, he did, which would have been a very compelling idea. Then Scott Lobdell and Bob Harras retooled Onslaught into a ridiculously convoluted psychic entity who was half Magneto, half Xavier, and all cliched "big crossover event villain." Much like how Stryfe got cut off at the legs when he was revealed to not be Nathan Summers, once Onslaught was revealed to not really be Xavier, he became a joke and a prime example of the worst of the "too many chefs in the kitchen" overly convoluted, post-Claremont X-era in the 90s.

StoneGold

11-12-2006, 11:50 AM

Wolverine has the best villain potential. He is becoming so powerful now adays he could probably take on the Silver Surfer.
He just did. Enemy of the State. HYDRA powered him up. He still mostly got his butt whupped, but he managed to do some nasty stuff with hit and run tactics.

jmc247

11-12-2006, 12:49 PM

He just did. Enemy of the State. HYDRA powered him up. He still mostly got his butt whupped, but he managed to do some nasty stuff with hit and run tactics.

I didn't know that. But, Wolve is getting to the strength to take on low level cosmic beings.

DDM

11-12-2006, 12:57 PM

I didn't know that. But, Wolve is getting to the strength to take on low level cosmic beings.

The Silver Surfer is not a "low level cosmic being." In fact, any cosmic powered character should rightly so thrash Wolverine without batting an eyelash. If Wolverine can be written on the same level as the Silver Surfer, Thanos, Adam Warlock, Kismet (Her), Galactus, Phoenix, etc al, then the writers & editors are missing the point about Wolverine altogether. Wolverine is an endearing character because he knows his limits & is not afraid to lose his battles.

Any one character who has been transformed into Galactus' Herald--Silver Surfer, Air Walker, Firelord, Terrax, Nova, Red Shift, Stardust--with the Power Cosmic is completely out of Wolverine's league. Wolverine should be out of the fight in a couple of panels.

jmc247

11-12-2006, 01:15 PM

Any one character who has been transformed into Galactus' Herald--Silver Surfer, Air Walker, Firelord, Terrax, Nova, Red Shift, Stardust--with the Power Cosmic is completely out of Wolverine's league. Wolverine should be out of the fight in a couple of panels.

I agree that is how it should be, but in the past few years that is not how the writers have been moving things.

kel25

11-12-2006, 02:15 PM

I agree that is how it should be, but in the past few years that is not how the writers have been moving things.
Yeah, he reminds me of DBZ. Eventually I expect to see Wolverine able to destroy galaxies with a single claw. :rolleyes:

I agree that Wolverine would make an interesting villain.

Wild Card13

11-12-2006, 02:59 PM

He has been, when he was Apocalypse's Death.

Omega Alpha

11-12-2006, 03:09 PM

jmc247

11-12-2006, 03:14 PM

Wolverine as a villain would become even more owerpowered than he is. Instead of fighting Daredevil, Cap. America or Spider-Man, you would see him taking on the entire X-men or FF at the same time... and winning.:rolleyes:

Wolverine in that What If comic where he became a vampire managed to defeat the entire X-Men, Magneto, Doom, Avengers, and everyone else on Earth in the end he was the only one who could do himself in.

DDM

11-12-2006, 03:23 PM

Wolverine in that What If comic where he became a vampire managed to defeat the entire X-Men, Magneto, Doom, Avengers, and everyone else on Earth in the end he was the only one who could do himself in.

Well, that is a What If.... Wolverine is not unstoppable & certainly not invulnerable even as a vampire. Give him a little holy water with a dash of sunlight. His flesh would burn away, leaving his adamantium skeleton.

jmc247

11-12-2006, 03:31 PM

Well, that is a What If.... Wolverine is not unstoppable & certainly not invulnerable even as a vampire. Give him a little holy water with a dash of sunlight. His flesh would burn away, leaving his adamantium skeleton.

Unless, the writers decide differently and I said it was a What If.

You seem not to get that I agree with you about Wolverine, but some writers at Marvel don't seem to.

brundlefly

11-12-2006, 03:34 PM

Well, that is a What If.... Wolverine is not unstoppable & certainly not invulnerable even as a vampire. Give him a little holy water with a dash of sunlight. His flesh would burn away, leaving his adamantium skeleton.

Heh, that was one of the goofier What Ifs. And where was Blade during that vampirism outbreak?

Magneto_X

11-12-2006, 03:41 PM

Reed Richards. Silver Surfer. Charles Xavier. Dr. Strange.

Magneto_X

11-12-2006, 03:49 PM

I think a full-powered Charles Xavier would have the most villain potential. With Cerebro, he could touch every mind in the world, save for a few small exceptions like Magneto and Juggernaut, and even then only if they're fortunate enough to be wearing their helments at the time. Yes, Tony has technology and money and resources, but Xavier is rather wealthy himself (though not at the ridiculous level Tony is) and he could coerce people into doing whatever he wanted with a thought.

He also has an army of super-humans who will die for him and some not even bother questioning him at all.

All Xavier would need is to set up things while they're elsewhere or simply give them disinformation.

And if any turn on him he already has files on their strengths and weaknesses: The Xavier Protocols!

Magneto_X

11-12-2006, 03:50 PM

In the initial Mark Waid version/concept of Onslaught, yes, he did, which would have been a very compelling idea. Then Scott Lobdell and Bob Harras retooled Onslaught into a ridiculously convoluted psychic entity who was half Magneto, half Xavier, and all cliched "big crossover event villain." Much like how Stryfe got cut off at the legs when he was revealed to not be Nathan Summers, once Onslaught was revealed to not really be Xavier, he became a joke and a prime example of the worst of the "too many chefs in the kitchen" overly convoluted, post-Claremont X-era in the 90s.

Despite all that I still liked the story and Onslaught itself.

PatchMadripoor

11-12-2006, 05:52 PM

Forge of the X-men.

Mutant power -
Forge's mutant power to develop technology, out of control technology and we have sen it in the past that his powers almost got the best of him as he aided the villains of the story.

Sorcery -
As the heir apparent to the 616's Nazé, he has some mystical abilities as well. Nothing amazing, but then again he was able to open up the rift for the Adversary to come through. The man knows how to suck people's souls out of their bodies and use them for ill.

Exposure to advanced technology -
Forge has seen and worked with quite a bit of advanced technology in his day. Shi'ar, Avenger's, Genoshan, Phalanx, Reed Richard's, Sentinel, tech from the future (Bishop, Cable, Nimrod). Get him some Celestial or Galactus tech in front of him, and we got issues.

Omega Alpha

11-12-2006, 07:08 PM

He also has an army of super-humans who will die for him and some not even bother questioning him at all.

All Xavier would need is to set up things while they're elsewhere or simply give them disinformation.

And if any turn on him he already has files on their strengths and weaknesses: The Xavier Protocols!

The protocols were destroyed already, and right now i think that there's more chance of the X-men kill Xavier than die for him. Just one more of his dirty secrets and Cyke is blasting his head off.

xakko

11-12-2006, 07:16 PM

clearly, we must all fear Squirrel Girl being seduced to the dark side... what if she were to eat one of those bad nuts- you know, the one in the odd tasting Peanut M&M?

Magneto_X

11-12-2006, 07:37 PM

marshal99

11-12-2006, 08:26 PM

Wolverine has the best villain potential. He is becoming so powerful now adays he could probably take on the Silver Surfer.

He's been a villain more times than you can count - he's been controlled by Hydra in enemy of the state , he's been apocalypse's pawn as death , he's been controlled by an alien entity and fought dozens of street heroes and even took on Galactus. :D (Of course , there's not actually a fight , Galactus did not even notice him much)

Shadow ES

11-12-2006, 08:31 PM

I think if Bruce Banner decided to be a bad guy, he would cause a lot of damage.

PatchMadripoor

11-12-2006, 08:40 PM

All of these things Reed and Doom do regularly. And better.

Hell, except for the time machines Tony Stark is superior to Forge at inventing stuff.

They do, but they actually have to take time to concoct, design and create their tech. How many times have we seen Doom, Tony and Reed late into the night working in the lab to design something against a new threat?
We've seen time and time again Forge work on the fly, with little or no equipment because actual genetic mutation allows him to subconciously analyze and build technology to counter most threats on the spot.

Forge just doesn't have the resources the others do. But if he did and he went bad, he could be formidable.

Erik Lehnsherr

11-12-2006, 09:15 PM

Cam Man

11-12-2006, 10:22 PM

Gambit????

In his solo series his future fullt powered self became some goofball named the "New Sun" who aparently burned the whole of the Earth's population away because of his uncontrollable powers. Eh, go figure.

Cyke? He's pulled the X-men out of who knows how many world ending battles. I'd love to see him get fed up with Xavier and his old fashioned "dream" and lead a group of pro active, aggressive, dangerous X-men. Be a nice change of pace and interesting to see.

Seriosuly though this is a great idea. There's so many Marvel villians who work for the good guys now, (you see how many damn Thunderbolts there are!) that it would be a welcome change to see some heros go to the dark side. Maybe thats what CW was designed to do as it looks like things are leaning in that direction anyways. Nothing better than some hero on hero action!

DDM

11-13-2006, 09:18 AM

Seriosuly though this is a great idea. There's so many Marvel villians who work for the good guys now, (you see how many damn Thunderbolts there are!) that it would be a welcome change to see some heros go to the dark side. Maybe thats what CW was designed to do as it looks like things are leaning in that direction anyways. Nothing better than some hero on hero action!

Chris Claremont did it several times:

Uncanny X-Men #129-137: Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) & the Hellfire Club succeeds in subverting the girl-next-door, Jean Grey into the decadent Black Queen; unfortunately, Jean breaks Mastermind's psychic hold on her when she witnesses Scott's "death" on the astral plane. Jean, as Phoenix, exposes Mastermind's soul to the cosmos making him catatonic. Since the Phoenix is linked to passion, Jean Grey could not fully free herself from the her own dark side Mastermind exposed; therefore, she becomes Dark Phoenix. After she destroys a star & destroys a Shi'ar warship, the X-Men fight to save their friend. For a time, they succeed. Jean Grey is back while Phoenix is seemingly no more. But the victory is short-lived in the heat of battle against the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, Marvel Girl becomes Phoenix again. Jean Grey--before the horrified Cyclops--commits suicide & die a hero than become Dark Phoenix to possibly destroy the universe.

Kitty Pryde & Wolverine #1-8: Kitty is possessed by Ogun & fights Wolverine. Thanks to Kitty's training from Professor Xavier, Kitty fights Ogun herself & wins. As a result, she gains ninja fighting skills from being possessed by Ogun. She renames herself Shadowcat & wears a new costume.

Uncanny X-Men #219, 221-222, 239-243, 249-250: Lorna Dane is possessed by Malice on orders by Mr. Sinister. As Polaris, Malice leads the Marauders against the new X-Men. Havok is tormented by the knowledge his innocent girlfriend is the Marauders' leader. Malice is not pleased she is permanently bonded to Lorna Dane, but Sinister lies to her saying she is free to possess anyone she pleases, but has a "home" to return to in Polaris. With Sinister's supposed death, Lorna's psyche becomes dominant. Eventually, after Zaladane steals Polaris' magnetic powers, Lorna is at last free of the psychic mutant, Malice. But Lorna Dane's body grows & she has superhuman strength & agility due to Malice's bonding leaving Lorna with the ability to absorb negative energy into strength. Unfortunately, this leaves Lorna Dane open to be the pawn of the evil Shadow King.

Uncanny X-Men #256-258: Psylocke becomes the ultimate woman warrior as Lady Mandarin; she is the ultimate assassin who uses her formidable telepathy against her foes in conjunction with her ninja skills for the demonic, the Hand. Psylocke breaks her conditioning, but at a high price thanks to Mojo & Spiral pulling the strings. Psylocke turns her psycho-blaster power into her psychic knife used to stun or kill her foes. She also becomes an action junkie.

Louise Simonson:

X-Factor #23-26: Apocalypse transforms Warren Worthington III, the Angel into Death with metal wings & blue skin. Iceman helps Warren break his conditioning when he believes he kills Iceman in battle. Warren eventually returns to X-Factor as Archangel.

Avengers:

The Crossing: Iron Man is a villain in this story.

West Coast Avengers #42-57: The Scarlet Witch's mind cracks when the Vision is dissected & she learns her children are really figments of her imagination, extensions of Mephisto's soul. The Scarlet Witch forms the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants with Quicksilver & Magneto.

The Avengers #185-187: Wanda is possessed by the powerful Elder God, Chthon. Her adopted father succeeds in trapping Chthon's soul in a doll made from the wood from Wundagore Moutain, but he dies to save his daughter.

Fantastic Four:

Fantastic Four #280-281: The Hate Monger & Psycho Man turn Susan Storm Richards into Malice, mistress of hate (not connected to the psychic Marauder Malice). She defeats the Fantastic Four one by one until Reed uses logic to make his wife come to her senses; he makes her feel real hatred for him when he slaps her around breaking the Hate Monger's conditioning.

Fantastic Four #19-25 (volume 3): Reed Richards is trapped in Doom's armor after their encounter with the Dreaming Celestial. Over time, Doom's armor corrupts Reed into becoming Doom. Victor Von Doom explains that his armor is meant to be worn only by him. With Doom's help, the FF free Reed from Doom's armor.

I think Marvel has been using moral relativism to make heroes less heroic with many crossovers. Marvel should be doing the opposite by drawing a definitive line in the sand about good & evil. The blurring the line between hero & villain is just a repetative record skipping on the same note.

rZi

11-13-2006, 10:26 AM

marshal99

11-13-2006, 11:40 AM

Iron man definatley gets my vote....It seems that the Civil War writters are already trying to make him into a villan, which if they were to do completely and change the character forever would be a major blow to the universe.

Been there , done that. Iron man was a cold blooded murderer in the crossing. Iron man have always been a class-a prick , with his obsession in the armor wars , him trying to seduce Jan when Hank is in prison , playing the avengers and james rhodes for a tool by pretending that he's dead , etc etc.