Batman 658 *spoilers* [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Mia

11-08-2006, 05:12 PM

Well, well, well. It seems as if Morrison realised that he goofed and tried to clean up his story somewhat (maybe the reason for the two week delay was he was doing re-writes). Everyone sounded much more in character this time around.

Talia actually mentioned that they had a romance, and Batman's reply was that it was a long time ago. So we can factor in her drugging him did not happen and Batman's response in 656 was sarcasm. It also negates my argument on another forum that Morisson reduced the complexity of Batman and Talia's relationship. To a one night shag. Also Damien seemed less like an evil Bart Simpson clone. And more like a child who was brought up to be vicious.

It reminded a lot of old times. It seems that Talia did her evil scheme in order to bring over to her side, so they could be a 'family'. Sound familiar?
Sounds warped and desperate. But let's not forget that she's been brainwashed.

Morisson has really re-deemed himself somewhat in my eyes. Not a masterpiece. But definetly made up for the last issue, and has brought things back on track.

GRANT!

11-08-2006, 06:09 PM

I doubt he realized "he goofed up" seeing how this arc was written months ago and this issue was pretty consistent with the previous issues. But I suppose that's a whole lot easier to believe then you making preconceived judgements based on a few pages that Talia appeared before without seeing how things ultimately panned out.

jwd

11-08-2006, 06:21 PM

Can't say this arc impressed me. Since they weren't marked in the title -

We get the typical "join me my beloved", followed of course by a "No" and an explosion no one should be able to survive but we all know they will. Oh and throw in a plot with Man-Bats that really didn't serve any purpose other than giving Batman someone to punch.

Next issue - Another Joker story. I'll pass.

Harding Prime

11-08-2006, 06:48 PM

So I just got done reading Son of the Demon again, and refreshed myself and read the entire story arc of Batman & Son, being involved in many discussions and threads, including Mia. I can understand some readers that have a problem with the evolution of Talia from SOD to now, but it was an evolution and you seem to realize that, especailly hence the brainwashing. I enjoyed the end of the arc the most, because it actually gave a finished product of the questions of what the fuck Grant thinks he is doing...he's doing a good job. I thought I might see some retractions of what people were bashing Grant over after the final product, but I highly doubt he changed the story to appease the Talia fans, it was just part of the evolution of the story. Batman was pretty pissed when he was attacked by about 100 ninja Man-Bats, so anything he says to the bitch that did it to him once he wakes back up, might need to be taken in jest. What is he suppose to do, say thanks honey for having the shit kicked out of me by your mutated league of assasins, want to make another baby. It was a good conclusion that you should have let finish before you tear it up. You can speculate all you want, we all do, but people seem to write shit off before they get the finished product. Here is to the Joker in the next story arc!

Mia

11-08-2006, 07:26 PM

I doubt he realized "he goofed up" seeing how this arc was written months ago .

Note I mentioned 're-write'. But I guess you missed that in your rush to make snarky remarks ;) .

and this issue was pretty consistent with the previous issues. But I suppose that's a whole lot easier to believe then you making preconceived judgments based on a few pages that Talia appeared before without seeing how things ultimately panned out.

There's nothing 'preconceived' about my statements whatsoever. Everything was taken directly from the books. First of all the dialogue between Talia is completely different. In issue 656 there was no sign that they had a romance or any sort of relationship at all over the years.

Talia: They say there's no coincidence my Detective, but have you forgotten that night you and I shared under the desert moon above the tropic of cancer?

Batman: I remember being drugged senseless and refusing to co-operate in some depraved eugenics experiment. That night maybe?

Talia: We chose you, the perfect man, to breed the perfect heir to the Empire of Ra's Al Ghul. And believe me you cooperated magnificently.

To issue #658

Talia: Ours is love story remember?
Batman: That was a long time ago, Talia.

Vastly inconsistent. Not only does issue 656 denote Batman having sex with Talia under the influence of drugs. It also denotes that Talia had no feelings for him, she was merely interested in using him as a sperm donor. No feelings between either of them. Which was changed in issue #658

Then there’s Damien’s behaviour. In #657 he tries to attack Batman and demands that Batman yield to him. Then in 658 he’s full of admiration and respect for Batman.

And the biggest evidence show that there was probably some sort of re-rewrite is the difference between the events of #656 and #658. If Talia wants them to be one big happy family. Why didn’t she just say so when she captured Batman in issue #656? What was the point of sending Damien home to Gotham with Batman? Why didn’t she just tell Bruce that she had a baby years ago and now wants them to be a family?

Sean Whitmore

11-08-2006, 07:35 PM

Vastly inconsistent. Not only does issue 656 denote Batman having sex with Talia under the influence of drugs. It also denotes that Talia had no feelings for him, she was merely interested in using him as a sperm donor.

It didn't denote that, really. It denoted Batman making a snotty remark, which is what many people argued in the disucssion of last issue.

Either way, I'm glad to hear you did like this issue better than last. :)

SEAN

Mia

11-08-2006, 07:45 PM

No big deal. Morrison corrected himself. I have more respect for him doing that than simply trying to compound a story that just seemed out of whack. Also I am glad that the history behind the 'relationship' has been restored (even if they aren't a couple). And she's back to calling him 'Beloved' (which she said he was no more' in DATM).

I don't mind Talia being villainess. As long as she's smart and layered. She's one of the few DC heroines or female characters I can honestly say I respect and admire.

GRANT!

11-08-2006, 07:57 PM

Note I mentioned 're-write'. But I guess you missed that in your rush to make snarky remarks ;) .

Oh I noticed that. I still doubt he rewrote it to based on a couple people's complaints. Since he rarely ever does that (consider his X-Men run).

There's nothing 'preconceived' about my statements whatsoever. Everything was taken directly from the books. First of all the dialogue between Talia is completely different. In issue 656 there was no sign that they had a romance or any sort of relationship at all over the years.

Talia: They say there's no coincidence my Detective, but have you forgotten that night you and I shared under the desert moon above the tropic of cancer?

Batman: I remember being drugged senseless and refusing to co-operate in some depraved eugenics experiment. That night maybe?

Talia: We chose you, the perfect man, to breed the perfect heir to the Empire of Ra's Al Ghul. And believe me you cooperated magnificently.

To issue #658

Talia: Ours is love story remember?
Batman: That was a long time ago, Talia.

Vastly inconsistent. Not only does issue 656 denote Batman having sex with Talia under the influence of drugs. It also denotes that Talia had no feelings for him, she was merely interested in using him as a sperm donor. No feelings between either of them. Which was changed in issue #658

You misinterpret not giving the audience the whole story from the beginning with inconsistent. She does reiterate in the recent issue that Damien is meant to be the "perfect child." And the first issue she seems to have a romantic view of the night of Damien was conceived. That's how I interpreted it back then. It can be part "love" and "crazed eugenics" experiment. Not just "either or."

Then there’s Damien’s behaviour. In #657 he tries to attack Batman and demands that Batman yield to him. Then in 658 he’s full of admiration and respect for Batman.

And the biggest evidence show that there was probably some sort of re-rewrite is the difference between the events of #656 and #658. If Talia wants them to be one big happy family. Why didn’t she just say so when she captured Batman in issue #656? What was the point of sending Damien home to Gotham with Batman? Why didn’t she just tell Bruce that she had a baby years ago and now wants them to be a family?

Issue #657 he was him arrogantly trying to gain his fathers respect. His behavior in this issue is result of him losing his fathers respect because of his arrogance. That's a logical progression. It's not inconsistent it's just Damien being a kid. Damien is sort of like my younger brother when he was a kid without homocidal urges and ninja skills. One minute he was a brat to me and the next he's devoted little brother. Kids are weird that way.

Talia wants a family on her terms which Batman taking her fathers role which was something he has never been interested in. Sending Damien with Batman and starting that war was her way of giving Bruce an Ultimatium. Talia's motives in the beginning are unclear. We aren't supposed to know what she's planning.

Jack Roberts

11-08-2006, 08:02 PM

I love Batman. I love Grant Morrison's writing. I'm not reading the next issue.

sly_kat

11-08-2006, 08:58 PM

I love Batman. I love Grant Morrison's writing. I'm not reading the next issue.
y?

i thought this issue was okay, im more interested in Morrison writing on his pretense rather then based off his somewhat 'fuzzy' memory;) means next issue should be interesting, as should his mystery arc after ostander's arc

NMoline

11-08-2006, 10:33 PM

Definitely not my favorite Arc, but I am extremely interested to read the Joker Returns arc because of how this Arc started out with the Joker.

kal_el21

11-08-2006, 10:56 PM

I got totally lost this issue, especially near the end. Maybe it was the writing or because I was getting ready to watch Malkin and Crosby lose to an inferior Tampa Bay sqaud. I will stay on though, Morrison's writing the Joker next. Cool.

Carter Hall

11-08-2006, 11:11 PM

I liked this issue and I have liked this whole arc. I love the tension Morrison has set up that fleshes out the characters a bit more- Robin vs. Damien, Talia vs. Bruce, and what's wrong with ninja man-bats!!!?? I think it's a great idea! Honestly, they may have been "something for Batman to punch" in these issues, but it was entertaining and there is a possibility of using them again. I also hope Damien, who is very interesting, I think, doesn't fall by the wayside. My only criticism was that the issue was a bit rushed, if anything- I would've preferred it to be two issues, given the slow pacing of the first three and the fast pacing of this one.

I'm going to keep reading Morrison on Batman. Good stuff.

cactusmaac

11-09-2006, 04:02 AM

StrikeForce Albert

11-09-2006, 06:10 AM

LOL at the BatRocket, that was awesome

I've really enjoyed this arc, it was fun and entertaining

TinMan

11-09-2006, 06:51 AM

I thought this story arc was pretty cool, I don't like how it ended though. The whole "son becomes a villain because of anger issues with daddy" has been done before, so I would have prefered to see at least Damian go back with Bruce, it would have given a lot room to play with the father/son dynamic. Putting Bruce into a place where he was thinking of his own child and one that was trained as an assasin none the less, would have been great: Damian trying to live up to this father's expectations but fails now and again do to his programing at such a young age, Bats growing more attached to him, and Robin eventually establishing an uneasy friendship with Damian. I just think it would have made for some really great stories even if it didn't stick permanent like.

All in all, I enjoyed this arc and I'm looking forward to more of Morrison's Batman.

MrPunch0

11-09-2006, 08:10 AM

ultramandingo

11-09-2006, 08:47 AM

i hope the new bond flick has bat ninjas......he could use a 7yr old assassin sidekick with "issues" too

brundlefly

11-09-2006, 08:51 AM

jwd, I agree with your take on the rather cliched, by-the-numbers action movie finale nature of this issue. And Talia's dialogue was pretty cringe-inducing, as well (had she a mustache, she would have been twirling it). Sure, it was fun and there were some entertaining moments, but it's certainly nothing 'groundbreaking' or 'redefining,' words people love to attach to anything Morrison produces. Frankly, I'm looking forward to Dini's use of the Joker in DETECTIVE more than Morrison's use of him in the next issue. BATMAN's certainly not bad and I'll keep reading it; I just don't think it's living up to the massive hype that preceded the start of the current run.

Hellcow

11-09-2006, 09:10 AM

I love Batman. I love Grant Morrison's writing. I'm not reading the next issue.

Unfortunately, I know where you're coming from. The writing he is doing for All Star Superman is sooooo much better. Its like he cares about that title, but doesn't really care for this batman title.

OverMaster

11-09-2006, 09:56 AM

Unfortunately, I know where you're coming from. The writing he is doing for All Star Superman is sooooo much better. Its like he cares about that title, but doesn't really care for this batman title.

Isn't the next issue the start of the John Ostrander's fill-in run?

Joe Rice

11-09-2006, 09:59 AM

For God's sake, he didn't correct himself. He wrote a story where the second part of the arc confounded things. That's called basic storytelling.

Mia

11-09-2006, 11:08 AM

Oh I noticed that. I still doubt he rewrote it to based on a couple people's complaints. Since he rarely ever does that (consider his X-Men run). .

I never said he re-wrote it based on a couple of people's complaints. I said the story was probably re-written based on the fact that he realised that he made mistakes in the telling of the story, and that it was out of sync with SOD and all the Ra's/Talia/Batman centered stories. He as much as says so in the Wizard interview. If Morisson didn't care he probably wouldn't have brought it up to begin with in that interview.

You misinterpret not giving the audience the whole story from the beginning with inconsistent. She does reiterate in the recent issue that Damien is meant to be the "perfect child." And the first issue she seems to have a romantic view of the night of Damien was conceived. That's how I interpreted it back then. It can be part "love" and "crazed eugenics" experiment. Not just "either or." .

No she doesn't. In 656 there is no mention on the part of either of them that there is a romance. Talia just goes on to speak about wanting the perfect child, and that she basically used Bruce as a sperm donor. And that he was an unwilling participant. There is no mention of any love between them or their relationship.

Talia wants a family on her terms which Batman taking her fathers role which was something he has never been interested in. Sending Damien with Batman and starting that war was her way of giving Bruce an Ultimatium. Talia's motives in the beginning are unclear. We aren't supposed to know what she's planning.

What ultimatum? Because from what I read the only time any sort of ultimatum happened was in #658.

How long was Damien with Bruce in issue 657? A night? Maybe if you factor in the time they spent getting to Talia in #658 24 hours max. Was that supposed to be a time of bonding? Yes Talia's motives at the begining are unclear. But by issue #658 they are clear. She wants them to be a family. She could have easily have said the same thing during issue 656 when she confronts Batman and shows him that they have a child.

The Shadow

11-09-2006, 11:15 AM

So I don't know if the pacing was rushed, or if it was the art, or if I just need some sleep, but I really didn't understand the last few pages of the book.

Batman and family are standing on the sub, torpedoes closing in, and BOOM. Next thing we know Batman is standing on the shore and the sub is toast.

Did they all escape? (I'm assuming yes.) And if so, how? And did I just miss it?

I just found it confusing.
It wasn't just you...

I have 23 consecutive years of Batman comics, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this... but I was confused as hell too.

It seemed to me the story should have been a few pages longer.

Matt Algren

11-09-2006, 11:22 AM

For God's sake, he didn't correct himself. He wrote a story where the second part of the arc confounded things. That's called basic storytelling.No no no! It means that we are powerful! Complaining about the first issue changes the way DC writes the second!

(I say this with complete understanding that I complain about things on the internet. No need to point it out. I just harbor no misconceptions that my complaining causes immediate change.)

Damo

11-09-2006, 01:55 PM

No no no! It means that we are powerful! Complaining about the first issue changes the way DC writes the second!

Did anyone say that we made him change anything? I have no idea if he did change anything, but if he did I suspect it's more likely because someone at Wizard, or one of his coworkers, or someone along those lines pointed out some things that didn't quite work, and he made a mental note to address that.

Of course it's entirely possible that he didn't, and this was what he always had written. Seem quite likely to me. I didn't really pick up on anything "correcting" what he said earlier. It was good to see Talia, yet again, offering to give it all up for him. I wish we'd gotten a little insight into his thought processes for turning her down.

Overall this arc has made me sad from the wasted opportunities. The action side of things was quite good. Ninja man bats, bat rockets... um... ninja man bats... and when Batman was talking like an action hero his dialogue was quite good ("you didn't know I had a rocket").

Emotionally this fell flat as the stock market on October 29, 1929. I'm talking flat as 20 year old champagne. Flat. Talia's plan was hopelessly muddled, the scenes that should have had emotional resonance didn't, and I still really dislike Damian. I'm glad this is over and we're getting the Joker next. Um... just not anything like that Joker story in Aztek. Robot crickets whose tap dancing works as an electronic version of Joker Toxin? Maybe it sounded good as he was coming up with it, but...

Damo

11-09-2006, 02:04 PM

No no no! It means that we are powerful! Complaining about the first issue changes the way DC writes the second!

(P.S. Actually, and it depends heavily on if the writer pays attention to the internet, yeah, it's been known to happen. Some creators, not "DC", do listen to what fans say online.)

Grizsly

11-09-2006, 02:09 PM

So I don't know if the pacing was rushed, or if it was the art, or if I just need some sleep, but I really didn't understand the last few pages of the book.

Batman and family are standing on the sub, torpedoes closing in, and BOOM. Next thing we know Batman is standing on the shore and the sub is toast.

Did they all escape? (I'm assuming yes.) And if so, how? And did I just miss it?

I just found it confusing.

Ditto.

WTF happened there????

(I think no one else in this thread has mentioned it becasuse they haven't the foggiest, either.)

Seriously, WHAT THE HELL WENT ON THERE?????

I reread those three pages at least ten times, and still have no goddamn clue how the hell Talia, Damian, and Batman got off the sub, or what the button on Talia's wrist thing did, or how Batman got to shore. . .

WTF?!?!?

Joe Rice

11-09-2006, 02:11 PM

Ditto.

WTF happened there????

(I think no one else in this thread has mentioned it becasuse they haven't the foggiest, either.)

Seriously, WHAT THE HELL WENT ON THERE?????

I reread those three pages at least ten times, and still have no goddamn clue how the hell Talia, Damian, and Batman got off the sub, or what the button on Talia's wrist thing did, or how Batman got to shore. . .

WTF?!?!?

We aren't supposed to know, at least not yet. Not every moment need be spelled out. It's not surprising that they escaped. We just don't know how, nor, do I think, we need to.

Grizsly

11-09-2006, 02:14 PM

Eh. . .I don't know - seems like it was a pretty instantaneous moment, with the torpedo striking the sub - I don't see how this could be brooched in future issues - maybe, I guess, but still. . .meh.

Gaspard

11-09-2006, 02:29 PM

I agree with the ones here who were lost in the last few pages. I seriously had no idea what was going on. Overall, the run was interesting, but I think that #657 was a whole lot better than this one. I don't think #658 really lived up to what #657 had, especially with Damien (hate that name, too).

MartinRedmond

11-09-2006, 02:45 PM

This started out great. You'd never catch me reading BatMan otherwise! I loved the whole arc except the ending. Lots of interesting plot twists have been thrown and now it's all been conveniently undone a la "It was all a dream! Must maintain status quo for new readers! You read this for nothing!".

Next issue:"Good old Joker!"

I'm dropping the book and I'm disapointed I read this issue, it screwed up 3 awesome previous issues. I'm sorry I'm not patient enough to give it more issues, but it already got 4 to pique my interest which it all undid in one issue.

Joe Rice

11-09-2006, 02:47 PM

MartinRedmond

11-09-2006, 02:49 PM

Yeah I know they aren't dead, but the ending was stupid so whatever.

Joe Rice

11-09-2006, 02:53 PM

Yeah I know they aren't dead, but the ending was stupid so whatever.

A pleasure as always.

Jake V

11-09-2006, 04:37 PM

I reread those three pages at least ten times, and still have no goddamn clue how the hell Talia, Damian, and Batman got off the sub, or what the button on Talia's wrist thing did, or how Batman got to shore. . .
He's Batman.

There's your explanation.

saintsaucey

11-09-2006, 05:53 PM

He's Batman.

There's your explanation.

actually he's the gosh darn batman but what evs. the issue was pretty bad. with the exception of the first issue and the bat rocket scenes in this the arc has been pretty bad just like i predicted. hopefully morrison can redeem him self with the next issue. BTW its still him writing just a new artist. I read this at work on break so was a little rushed but damn. just aweful. even the art was incosistent one monet the kid from hell is wearing an old robin suit and a cape and hood the next he's wearing a white shirt instead of robins. the art was pretty but incosistant. pretty much the onlything that could cause me to drop batman from my pull list is alfred dawning the batsuit to fight agent smith and the matrix. (sorry for the random there the first two things, jack the ripper and zombies has happened) lol

GRANT!

11-09-2006, 06:57 PM

I never said he re-wrote it based on a couple of people's complaints. I said the story was probably re-written based on the fact that he realised that he made mistakes in the telling of the story, and that it was out of sync with SOD and all the Ra's/Talia/Batman centered stories. He as much as says so in the Wizard interview. If Morisson didn't care he probably wouldn't have brought it up to begin with in that interview.

And I'm arguing he probably didn't rewrite anything based on realizing whatever mistakes that were pointed out. I don't see anything contradiction between Talias appearance in the second issue and the last issue. Even before this issue came out people were saying that we don't know what Talia is up to yet and how she feels about Bruce currently based on that second issue.

No she doesn't. In 656 there is no mention on the part of either of them that there is a romance. Talia just goes on to speak about wanting the perfect child, and that she basically used Bruce as a sperm donor. And that he was an unwilling participant. There is no mention of any love between them or their relationship.

Explictly talking about a romance, no. But she speaks about "how he perform magnificently" and all that stuff implying that it was more them just a sperm donation. That's how I read it.

What ultimatum? Because from what I read the only time any sort of ultimatum happened was in #658.

That's what I'm talking about

How long was Damien with Bruce in issue 657? A night? Maybe if you factor in the time they spent getting to Talia in #658 24 hours max. Was that supposed to be a time of bonding? Yes Talia's motives at the begining are unclear. But by issue #658 they are clear. She wants them to be a family. She could have easily have said the same thing during issue 656 when she confronts Batman and shows him that they have a child.

Then what would the stoy about assuming she made all her intentions clear at the very beginning. Part of the story was about Batman figuring out what Talias and Damiens intentions were.

It's like Joe was say it was giving the audience the minimum amount of info required for storytelling purposes.

jaguarshark

11-09-2006, 08:03 PM

This was a pretty good ending to this arc, IMO. It felt like Grant was giving us full-blown, action superhero Batman, which is a great counter-balance to Dini's run on 'Tec. The Bat-Rocket, the parachuting, the submarine... I loved all of it.

But, those last few pages were as confusing as fuck. Normally, if I have any cause to re-read a Morrison book, it all becomes clear on second reading. I'm not sure if the problem was on Kubert's end or we just weren't meant to know what happened yet, but the last few pages of this book were confusing no matter how many times I went over them.

Still, great issue, and I'm pysched for Morrison's Joker story.

Armless Penguin

11-09-2006, 08:19 PM

Damien didn't know Batman had a transportable teleporter either.

jaguarshark

11-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Damian didn't know Batman had a transportable teleporter either.
I hadn't laughed out loud while reading a Batman comic in, well, ever. But I couldn't help it when I read "Hh. You didn't know about the rocket."

Johnny_H

11-09-2006, 11:52 PM

Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue?
I have only just gotten back into comic books, and Batman is a must have & I will continue to buy Batman books but this story line was weak IMO.

And really it was the last issue that ruined it for me, having him almost kill Robin, have Alfred locked away, just for him to be like "Sorry daddy I goofed Im your son hes not I was raised this way" was retarded to me, then that whole random idiocy with Gibraltar and the family reunion that could of been taken care of in 656, the story just felt stupid. I am not hating on Morrison but when I saw Ninja Man Bats I kind of knew this arc wasn't going to win me over. Hopefully the next one with Joker will be tight.

Also those last few panels are atrocious, you never see those Royal Marines take the PM's wife off the sub she automatically ends up on shore after being dumped overboard by the ensuing fight. same with Batman, and the pieces of the kids costume washing up on shore ..... yawn lol they are just storing this for when they have nothing to write about I hate to be so cynical I love Batman but I wasn't a fan of this arc.

The Shadow

11-10-2006, 12:51 AM

Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue?
You must have missed a good portion of the previos 40 or so posts.

Harding Prime

11-10-2006, 08:30 AM

MartinRedmond

11-10-2006, 09:08 AM

Talia's dialogue was pretty cringe-inducing, as well (had she a mustache, she would have been twirling it).

Just came back so I could quote this for truth. I'm sorry, I love Morrison, but sometimes he is just off. "I'm a sexy bee so I am CUHRAZAEEEEEHHH haha AHA ahaha AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

Johnny_H

11-10-2006, 11:55 AM

You must have missed a good portion of the previos 40 or so posts.

I saw most people not minding it, I was being a little dramatic but the point still stands. I thought it was a bit disappointing.

Constantine Drakon

11-10-2006, 11:59 AM

Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue?

No. I had very strong negative feelings toward it myself I'm afraid. It's quite normal for Morrison to put more strange ideas into one story than most people put into 5 or 6. That can work out very well, but here he was playing with what should have been emotionally charged events, and the end result was just horrible. Talia was a joke, going on about motherhood and shouting dreadful dialogue like "mother's busy now!" The ending was a confused muddle, and the whole plan was ridiculous. I'm afraid this was very badly put together, and if the idea needed to be done it should have been handled by someone willing to explore the emotions better. It's a shame too, because Morrison can be excellent with emotions, but here he didn't seem to even try. Meanwhile several writers I normally don't associate with emotional stories turned in excellent work this week. Weird.

I saw this in another forum, apparently from the dcboards originally. It sums up a lot of my reactions. I disagree with a few things, but I'm posting it as I saw it instead of cutting out those parts.

Batman rushes over to Robin.
Batman: Robin!

Batman: I don't know which is worse writing... you beating the entire League of Assassins and Batgirl in your book, or losing to a 6 year old they trained in this book.

Robin: Why does he have to be... such a jerk?
Batman: You jerk Damian!
Damian: Hey, Didio will probably kill him in a few years anyway.
Robin: I should just stay away from stories involving Ra's al Ghul's people... I suck in them.

Bruce lets Alfred out
Alfred: Why does he have to be such a jerk?
Batman: Robin's hurt. Bad.
Alfred: I'll just call Leslie Thom- oh, right. I guess I'll be a doctor now! Check out my doctor goggles!

Batman: I'm leaving. Damian, come with me.
Damian: I can help! Mom's in Gibralter!
Batman: Hh. I bet you didn't know I have a rocket.
Damian: What were your parents like?
Batman: MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!

Talia: I want Gibralter because my dad said it was nice. I have no way of holding onto it when I get it. But I want it. Because of my dad.
Ninja: Wait, what about Nyssa? I thought you wanted world peace because of her.
Talia: Who?
Ninja: Nyssa?
Talia: Pff. Nobody's ever heard of her! What do a few years of stories matter, everyone knows I always serve Ra's al Ghul!
Ninja: Didn't you betray him? A lot?
Talia: shhhhhuuuuutuuuup...

Ninja Man Bats: We rock.
Batman beats them up.

Damian: Whee! Look at me mom!
Talia: [Insert stereotypical "evil mother" dialogue here]
They're all on a submarine. unfortunately it's not yellow.
Batman: Okay wtf Talia?
Damian: Opps, sorry mom!
Talia: No, this was all my brilliant plan! Because I love you Batman I showed you what a psycho I turned your kid into-

Batman: Why does he have to be such a jerk?

Talia: -and kidnapped someone, and almost killed the people you love, and made you fight ninja man bats, and threatened to take over Gibralter even though I have no way of keeping it, and lured you here to where we're being attacked by the British navy to tell you... I want to reform and live with you. Do you accept my surrender?

Batman: ...

Batman: That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and I lived through some really stupid things these last few years!

Talia: Last chance!

Batman: No, no. I don't accept your offer to surrender and reform. I'd prefer if you kept on leading a massive evil organization that kills people & is one of the greatest threats I've ever faced. Instead I'll say that we were in love a long time ago. Even though it wasn't really a long time ago, and this may make you go back to being dangerous.

Talia: That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and I lived through some really stupid things these last few years!

Batman: My rejection upset you? Murderously? I guess I just don't get women.

Explosion. The bad guys vanish but obviously live.
Batman stares into the water sadly. "Nobody knew I had a rocket."

Shonuff

11-10-2006, 12:53 PM

Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue?

I don't want to say I didn't like the issue, but it was sort of a letdown for me. I was expecting more after the last issue. Batman was just WAY too forgiving and I refuse to believe that BATMAN would just accept that was his son without running 10,000 test to make sure, especially after the beating that kid gave Tim.

and the ending. :rolleyes:

Alcoholic

11-10-2006, 01:09 PM

That’s the way I felt too, it’s uncharacteristic of Bruce not to run any tests to see if this kid is his son or not.

Sean Whitmore

11-10-2006, 01:20 PM

That’s the way I felt too, it’s uncharacteristic of Bruce not to run any tests to see if this kid is his son or not.

Then again, seeing as how Morrison came right out and told everyone he's his son, a paternity test scene would have been 100% pointless to the reader. We can just as easily assume he did it off-panel.

SEAN

Shonuff

11-10-2006, 01:39 PM

Then again, seeing as how Morrison came right out and told everyone he's his son, a paternity test scene would have been 100% pointless to the reader. We can just as easily assume he did it off-panel.

SEAN

When did he have time to? He got stuck with the kid, brought him home, dumped him on Alfred, then went to do his crime fighting thing. Also I think the majority of people who read this book haven't read the interviews where Morrison said it was definitly his son. Think about all the test he ran to make sure Jason Todd was really Jason Todd.

Joe Rice

11-10-2006, 02:04 PM

Think about all the test he ran to make sure Jason Todd was really Jason Todd.

And, boy, didn't they make for fascinating comics? Let's have more scenes of guys doing tests on things!

Harding Prime

11-10-2006, 02:04 PM

When did he have time to? He got stuck with the kid, brought him home, dumped him on Alfred, then went to do his crime fighting thing. Also I think the majority of people who read this book haven't read the interviews where Morrison said it was definitly his son. Think about all the test he ran to make sure Jason Todd was really Jason Todd.

It's a long plane ride from London...

Alcoholic

11-10-2006, 02:07 PM

Sean Whitmore

11-10-2006, 02:09 PM

And, boy, didn't they make for fascinating comics? Let's have more scenes of guys doing tests on things!

They were awesome. Batman digging up graves...looking at computer screens...examining dirt and whatnot...good stuff.

SEAN

Sean Whitmore

11-10-2006, 02:10 PM

It's a long plane ride from London...

Yeah, and Bat Tech being what it is, he probably could've placed Damien's hand on an onboard DNA Analyzer. Then that computer voice from the animated series could say: "DNA Markers A Match."

SEAN

brundlefly

11-10-2006, 02:13 PM

I never read that, not everyone reads the interviews

Exactly. A reader shouldn't have to hunt down interviews with the author to get information that should have been presented in the actual story. No need for a CSI blood test montage sequence, but some reference to it, even in Bruce's internal monologue, was needed. Otherwise the reader thinks that Bruce simply accepted "he's your kid" at face value without verifying it, which would be wildly out of character for him. Just some more sloppiness and further proof Morrison's just goofing around here and isn't taking his BATMAN run very seriously.

Sean Whitmore

11-10-2006, 02:14 PM

I never read that, not everyone reads the interviews

Regardless, there's no question of paternity. It's not like Damien is going to turn around 5 issues from now and say, "A-ha! I'm really NOT your son!" And Batman says, "D'oh, I should've done a paternity test..."

If that was the plan, then yes, it'd be cheap writing for Morrison to not have Batman run a test. As it's not, devoting any actual comic time to it would be a waste.

SEAN

Joe Rice

11-10-2006, 02:17 PM

Regardless, there's no question of paternity. It's not like Damien is going to turn around 5 issues from now and say, "A-ha! I'm really NOT your son!" And Batman says, "D'oh, I should've done a paternity test..."

If that was the plan, then yes, it'd be cheap writing for Morrison to not have Batman run a test. As it's not, devoting any actual comic time to it would be a waste.

SEAN

Precisely. Any reference would have been a waste of space in an already-packed story.

Shonuff

11-10-2006, 02:21 PM

Precisely. Any reference would have been a waste of space in an already-packed story.

I disagree. He could have atleast said "I ran some test and he's my kid".

Harding Prime

11-10-2006, 02:23 PM

Precisely. Any reference would have been a waste of space in an already-packed story.

Not to mention the fact that however F'd up Talia and Bruce's relationship is, after everything they know about eachother, Bruce may feel he has no reason not to believe Talia.

Joe Rice

11-10-2006, 02:24 PM

I disagree. He could have atleast said "I ran some test and he's my kid".

When Batman says "He's my kid," that means "I ran some tests and he's my kid." He doesn't make unqualified statements.

Damo

11-10-2006, 02:34 PM

When Batman says "He's my kid," that means "I ran some tests and he's my kid." He doesn't make unqualified statements.

Batman: My parents are dead.

MEANWHILE, IN THE CARRIBEAN...

Thomas Wayne: Okay, I think this prank has gone on long enough.
Martha Wayne: Yeah, little Bruce has probably learned his lesson for putting the milk back in the fridge without a cap.

Mia

11-10-2006, 02:39 PM

Batman: My parents are dead.

MEANWHILE, IN THE CARRIBEAN...

Thomas Wayne: Okay, I think this prank has gone on long enough.
Martha Wayne: Yeah, little Bruce has probably learned his lesson for putting the milk back in the fridge without a cap.

Please don't give Grant Morrison any ideas! ;)

Damo

11-10-2006, 02:56 PM

Eek! Good point hon.

I think what ended up ruining this was that it was Batdick back in full force when we needed a guy that could be emotional in order to make this work. His "that was a long time ago" was dreadful I thought. Aside from the fact that he's passing up a chance to reform a very dangerous "villain", it seemed like a really glib and unemotional summary of their relationship. Talia was pretty much a two-dimensional chariacture. Her dialogue seemed like it could have been said by the evil Nazi that raped Tom Strong and had his evil kid. "Mother's busy now" might have been funny from another character, but from Talia it just made me wince. Her "plan" to make Bruce "reform" her was... really just terrible. Alan played our emotions like a harp when writing about Bwanna Beast's dying monkey. Here I felt a serious emotional disconnect. It just didn't ring true.

I liked Alfred's "doctor goggles". I do hope we get Leslie back though, Alfred's "army medic" training shouldn't cut it for things needing 3-D X-Rays of Tim's skull.

Seeing Batman racing over to Tim, laying there in the glass from Jason's display case... I couldn't help but hear him going "Oh come on, not another one!"

Mia

11-10-2006, 03:00 PM

And I'm arguing he probably didn't rewrite anything based on realizing whatever mistakes that were pointed out. I don't see anything contradiction between Talias appearance in the second issue and the last issue. Even before this issue came out people were saying that we don't know what Talia is up to yet and how she feels about Bruce currently based on that second issue. .

I already answered this question in my second post. But here it is again:

Originally Posted by Mia:

First of all the dialogue between Talia is completely different. In issue 656 there was no sign that they had a romance or any sort of relationship at all over the years.

Talia: They say there's no coincidence my Detective, but have you forgotten that night you and I shared under the desert moon above the tropic of cancer?

Batman: I remember being drugged senseless and refusing to co-operate in some depraved eugenics experiment. That night maybe?

Talia: We chose you, the perfect man, to breed the perfect heir to the Empire of Ra's Al Ghul. And believe me you cooperated magnificently.

To issue #658

Talia: Ours is love story remember?
Batman: That was a long time ago, Talia.

Vastly inconsistent. Not only does issue 656 denote Batman having sex with Talia under the influence of drugs. It also denotes that Talia had no feelings for him, she was merely interested in using him as a sperm donor. No feelings between either of them. Which was changed in issue #658

Then there’s Damien’s behaviour. In #657 he tries to attack Batman and demands that Batman yield to him. Then in 658 he’s full of admiration and respect for Batman.

And the biggest evidence show that there was probably some sort of re-rewrite is the difference between the events of #656 and #658. If Talia wants them to be one big happy family. Why didn’t she just say so when she captured Batman in issue #656? What was the point of sending Damien home to Gotham with Batman? Why didn’t she just tell Bruce that she had a baby years ago and now wants them to be a family?

Explictly talking about a romance, no. But she speaks about "how he perform magnificently" and all that stuff implying that it was more them just a sperm donation. That's how I read it. .

Yes, she said that after Batman spoke about being drugged when they had sex. Implying that the only reason he had sex with her was because he was under the influence of drugs. In other words he was out of it and unwilling. Talia countered that he 'performed magnificently'. Meaning he was great and very willing.

Then what would the stoy about assuming she made all her intentions clear at the very beginning. Part of the story was about Batman figuring out what Talias and Damiens intentions were.

It's like Joe was say it was giving the audience the minimum amount of info required for storytelling purposes.

Respectfully your post doesn't make any sense. In issue #656 Talia dumps Damien on Batman's lap and tells him that it's time for him to take responsibility for being a Father.

Not even 24 hours have passed in #658 and Batman is back confronting Talia about her evil deeds and all she tells him it is a form of black mail, so that they can be one big happy family. If that was her intentions all along she could have told him right up front in issue #656. Heck she even could have used the PM's wife as leverage. 'Marry me and be with me forever Batman, or I kill the PM's wife'. Easy. I can go even further and point out that Talia would not even have had to threaten Batman. Since family means the world to him.

If Talia had not been so poorly used during the last 3 or so years, I would have been even more miffed at Morisson's sloppiness. However since he's re-deemed himself in this last issue I'm willing to give him a chance. And to be frank, despite the poor story. I really am enjoying the way in which Morisson portrays Batman/Bruce Wayne. For once I get to see different facets of the character. Instead of a one dimensional knock off of the Punisher or Star Trek's Spock, I've been forced to endure for years.

Bruce Wayne Jr.

11-10-2006, 07:46 PM

I just recently re-read all four issues and, although i didn't like the ending at first, I did enjoy the entire arc. It gels together surprisingly well.

Try it again in one sitting.

Sean Whitmore

11-10-2006, 07:47 PM

I just recently re-read all four issues and, although i didn't like the ending at first, I did enjoy the entire arc. It gels together surprisingly well.

Try it again in one sitting.

I may do that. This last issue left me a little cold, and I can't quite place my finger on why.

SEAN

GRANT!

11-10-2006, 08:45 PM

Respectfully your post doesn't make any sense. In issue #656 Talia dumps Damien on Batman's lap and tells him that it's time for him to take responsibility for being a Father.

Not even 24 hours have passed in #658 and Batman is back confronting Talia about her evil deeds and all she tells him it is a form of black mail, so that they can be one big happy family. If that was her intentions all along she could have told him right up front in issue #656. Heck she even could have used the PM's wife as leverage. 'Marry me and be with me forever Batman, or I kill the PM's wife'. Easy. I can go even further and point out that Talia would not even have had to threaten Batman. Since family means the world to him.

Talia disappeared to give Batman and Damien some time alone and to keep Batman from Talia from kidnapping the wife. This story is called "Batman and Son" not "Batman and Talia."

I'm sure Batman wouldn't mind having a family or even raise Damien but I what got Batman is done with Talia. I'm sure he would want to raise a family but with the right person. Right now Talia isn't the right person for him.

Sure Talia could spout her intentions from the beginning but where would story go from there? Batman and Talia raise lil' Damien? Batman rejects her offer and the two disappear?

I reread the story last night. I still don't see how Morrison changed anything at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to "Son of the Demon" or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia. I don't see inconsistencies no matter how many times you repost them.

But if you want to keep thinking that fine. I'm just calling it bullshit.

filthysize

11-10-2006, 11:05 PM

So... what's so confusing about the last pages?

They're arguing on top of a sub, the british navy shoots a torpedo, Talia won't get off the sub, sub explodes, we're supposed to think everyone's dead, but Batman survived and swam to the shore, and picks up Damian's cape, wondering if they survived or not.

I mean, it really doesn't get any more straight forward than that. It's been done in, like, 53,400 action movie climaxes.

eXpiphany

11-11-2006, 04:17 AM

1) I felt batman didn't sound like the batman i know from the movies.
2) His son sounds really odd. Like some mindless drone.
3) Kubert's art was horrible in the last page.
4) That was some crap ending.

Harding Prime

11-11-2006, 09:20 AM

TheTen-EyedMan

11-11-2006, 10:34 AM

Harding Prime

11-11-2006, 11:33 AM

Honestly the last 4 issues have had me thinking, "be careful what you wish for because you might get it".

Grant Morrison's run on Batman thus far has not set the world on fire for me.

I honestly expected better.

Am I too hard a marker?

Well, I feel that Morrison is a builder of a story. These are the first 4 books of a 15 book story arc by Morrison. So keep an open mind if you are a Morrison fan.

carabas

11-11-2006, 12:08 PM

Hmmm...
I am not getting into the Talia discussion again.
It's devolved into a yes he did/no he didn't thing that bypasses the actual content of the book.

All in all, it was a fun arc. Miles ahead of plothole filled quagmire that is Detective comics, not counting last week's, which was dreadful, but at least semi-competently written.

Still, this is clearly Morrison taking a break from heavy lifting after a year and a half of '7 Soldiers'. Not bad at all, consistantly one of the best books of the week, but it really seems like Morrison is taking a break in between serious projects.

carabas

11-11-2006, 12:18 PM

actually he's the gosh darn batman

:D
I am so stealing that for my signature.

Damo

11-11-2006, 12:57 PM

Hmmm...
I am not getting into the Talia discussion again.
It's devolved into a yes he did/no he didn't thing that bypasses the actual content of the book.

Your explanation for why you won't "get into" the Talia discussion kind of does "get into" it. But people have been saying stuff like that since Cicero, to the point most people don't even realize they're giving an opinion as they say they won't. *Shrugs.*

Harding Prime

11-11-2006, 02:16 PM

Your explanation for why you won't "get into" the Talia discussion kind of does "get into" it. But people have been saying stuff like that since Cicero, to the point most people don't even realize they're giving an opinion as they say they won't. *Shrugs.*

He already go into the conversation of Talia before, I think what he was trying to say is he doesn't feel like beating a dead horse anymore, since most people really don't even care that much about the character. eeh*

MartinRedmond

11-11-2006, 02:18 PM

Well, I feel that Morrison is a builder of a story. These are the first 4 books of a 15 book story arc by Morrison. So keep an open mind if you are a Morrison fan.

My beef with Morrison is that everything he has done has started incredibly good, full of surprises. A+ Only to end in a cliched or downright awful way that made me angry at how bad or incomprehensible it is. I've been reading him since his run on Doom Patrol. That's what I've thought of Doom Patrol, Invisibles, etc... Even before the internetz I kept thinking it starts awesome and ends in a train wreck. So I'm not surprised to find other people thinking he drops the ball once it's time to close the curtains.

I really enjoyed this arc and I KNEW. I absolutely knew the last issue would be awful, and surprise it was! That's not a surprise since I knew what to expect from years of reading his work. That's not being on top of your game.

He should be above cliched ending that you're supposed to wait for to get better. His endings should be great right now. Also, I despise Morrison fans on the internet so much, it's untrue, because so many of them are so blinded in their idol worshiping that they cannot admit to his short comings. Yes, I agree he is a great writer. I wouldn't touch a BatMan book with a ten foot pole unless he was writing it. His endings just "blow". I think he needs fans that have the courage to tell him he needs to work on that.

MartinRedmond

11-11-2006, 02:21 PM

If I had a gripe with this arc, or more specific, the last issue, (cuz I guess we all have to bitch about something), it was how Batman handled Damien after what he did to Tim. He should have roughed him up or given him the growl or something. But the end, though semi predictable, was fun and cliche, but it needed to be done that way.

Keep in mind that Damien has been trained by assassins, he doesn't know BatMan. I thought it was great how he thought it would gain his respect.

Harding Prime

11-11-2006, 03:04 PM

Keep in mind that Damien has been trained by assassins, he doesn't know BatMan. I thought it was great how he thought it would gain his respect.

I didn't say anything about how damien handled it, I said how Batman handled it. F' the kid up if he thinks he is so bad, at least knock him down a peg.

Constantine Drakon

11-11-2006, 03:11 PM

Andy Kubert is a gem. I don't know how long he's meant to stay on the book. I hope they're holding onto him as long as they can. I may have strongly disliked the story in this arc, but the art was divine. I loved his man bats, his machines, his alfred, how he laid out the fight scenes... fantastic, absolutely fantastic.

Harding Prime

11-11-2006, 03:31 PM

Mia

11-11-2006, 05:29 PM

Talia disappeared to give Batman and Damien some time alone and to keep Batman from Talia from kidnapping the wife. This story is called "Batman and Son" not "Batman and Talia."

Some time alone? 24 hours is supposed to be enough time to make them bond?

I'm sure Batman wouldn't mind having a family or even raise Damien but I what got Batman is done with Talia. I'm sure he would want to raise a family but with the right person. Right now Talia isn't the right person for him.

Sure Talia could spout her intentions from the beginning but where would story go from there? Batman and Talia raise lil' Damien? Batman rejects her offer and the two disappear? .

Again, respectfully, your argument makes no sense.

I reread the story last night. I still don't see how Morrison changed anything at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to "Son of the Demon" or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia. I don't see inconsistencies no matter how many times you repost them..

But I was never arguing in the first place that 'Morrison changed anything at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to "Son of the Demon" or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia'. That's your statement. My argument has been all along that, it's my guess that Morisson either re-wrote or fixed up issue #658 to make it more in line with the Ra's/Talia/Batman stories that have taken place for almost forty years. I already posted it twice above,.

First of all the dialogue between Talia is completely different. In issue 656 there was no sign that they had a romance or any sort of relationship at all over the years.

Talia: They say there's no coincidence my Detective, but have you forgotten that night you and I shared under the desert moon above the tropic of cancer?

Batman: I remember being drugged senseless and refusing to co-operate in some depraved eugenics experiment. That night maybe?

Talia: We chose you, the perfect man, to breed the perfect heir to the Empire of Ra's Al Ghul. And believe me you cooperated magnificently.

To issue #658

Talia: Ours is love story remember?
Batman: That was a long time ago, Talia.

Vastly inconsistent. Not only does issue 656 denote Batman having sex with Talia under the influence of drugs. It also denotes that Talia had no feelings for him, she was merely interested in using him as a sperm donor. No feelings between either of them. Which was changed in issue #658

And the biggest evidence show that there was probably some sort of re-rewrite is the difference between the events of #656 and #658. If Talia wants them to be one big happy family. Why didn’t she just say so when she captured Batman in issue #656? What was the point of sending Damien home to Gotham with Batman? Why didn’t she just tell Bruce that she had a baby years ago and now wants them to be a family?

Issue #658 acknowleges that there was a romance and a complex relationship. The previous issues do no such thing. And reduce the relationship between Batman and Talia to having been a one night stand where Talia drugged Batman into having sex with her so that she could have a child. To quote Batman it was nothing more than a 'depraved' eugenics experiment'.

But if you want to keep thinking that fine. I'm just calling it bullshit.

No I'm going by the evidence on the page. Something which despite your 're-reading' you've managed to not see.

Mia

11-11-2006, 05:39 PM

carabas

11-11-2006, 06:21 PM

He already go into the conversation of Talia before, I think what he was trying to say is he doesn't feel like beating a dead horse anymore, since most people really don't even care that much about the character. eeh*

Indeed.
The Talia fanbase still has exactly the same problems, the mor rational side still has exactly the same answers, which still get ignored in exactly the same way.

Except for this, which kinda boggles my mind.
But I was never arguing in the first place that 'Morrison changed anything at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to "Son of the Demon" or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia'. That's your statement. My argument has been all along that, it's my guess that Morisson either re-wrote or fixed up issue #658 to make it more in line with the Ra's/Talia/Batman stories that have taken place for almost forty years. I already posted it twice above,.

What exactly would be the difference between "changing stuff at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to 'Son of the Demon' or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia", and "re-writing or fixing up issue #658 to make it more in line with the Ra's/Talia/Batman stories that have taken place for almost forty years". They seem rather synonymous.

Harding Prime

11-12-2006, 01:57 AM

What exactly would be the difference between "changing stuff at the last minute to make this more of a proper followup to 'Son of the Demon' or "fix" Batman's relationship with Talia", and "re-writing or fixing up issue #658 to make it more in line with the Ra's/Talia/Batman stories that have taken place for almost forty years". They seem rather synonymous.

I was going to say something about that, as if SOD or Batman/Talia relationship wasn't involved in the Ra's/Talia/Batman stories...But it just baffled me enough to *almost* let it slide.

Constantine Drakon

11-12-2006, 05:09 PM

For the record I don't see sufficient evidence to say that Morrison made changes. His portrayal of Talia felt choppy and didn't flow well from the two issues she appeared in, but I'm more inclined to attribute that to a poor understanding of the character than to his making changes. Unfortunately Morrison seemed to be so caught up in the idea of Batman having a son that he paid insufficient attention to what was going on in the heads of his cast, and that could probably explain the characterization drift. I am however disturbed at the attitude that it doesn't matter how she was written since most people don't care about the character. I think that's a nearsighted way of judging characterization. I don't know how "rational" my reaction is, but I thought this was a very poor story (although with excellent art), both Talia's fake plan and her real intention were nonsensical, the emotions felt entirely wrong (or nearly entirely absent in Batman's case), and some of the aspects of Talia which could yield an excellent story when handled with a delicate touch have been significantly damaged, making it more difficult for future writers of the character. Of course, that's just my opinion. I am looking forward to the next issues, however, which seem more up Morrison's alley. Too bad Kubert won't be drawing them.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-12-2006, 05:49 PM

Well, I feel that Morrison is a builder of a story. These are the first 4 books of a 15 book story arc by Morrison. So keep an open mind if you are a Morrison fan.

I am so I am Hard...uh, keeping an open mind, I mean.

Guts/Batman

11-12-2006, 06:48 PM

Arc was entertaining. The brat (Damian) is out for awhile. God that kid got on my nerves quickly. I wish Joker would stay away but I have faith in Morrison.

DWEarhart

11-12-2006, 07:12 PM

I was really disliking this initial Morrison/Kubert arc. It wasn't the loose connections to Son of the Demon that bothered me, or that Batman had a son that's genetically his.

It began as a huge letdown. I could see Morrison and Kubert going back to the Neal Adams era, playing things up to those era's strengths, but as whole, the story wasn't connecting to me, and Damien was a wriggly, overly excited little turd.

This issue saved it for me, and it was the only one, thus far, that I've really enjoyed. I was even contemplating dropping the book, but picking up Ostrander and Mandrake's four parter. I still may do that, but I'm curious about the bullet hole in Joker's face.

I dug the rocket, and that last scene with the torpedo aimed at the reflections of Damian and Talia, whom are undoubtedly alive, and left for either a resurgance near the end of Morrison's run, or up in the air for others to pick up.

The Ninja Man-Bats looked cool, but they were more man-bat than ninja. There was nothing shown that made their skills as ninjas excel in man-bat form, and it seems wasted.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-12-2006, 07:54 PM

Just like the Son of Superman shtick going on over there, I feel that giving Batman a son is a terrible, terrible mistake.

You all understand...that's it. It's canon. He has a kid...short of murdering it...it's here for keeps.

Another nail in the coffin.

Sean Whitmore

11-12-2006, 08:09 PM

You all understand...that's it. It's canon. He has a kid...short of murdering it...it's here for keeps.

Another nail in the coffin.

Is it really all that bad, though? Maybe if you specifically dislike the kid, okay, but just the idea of Batman having a kid?

I'm certainly not about to start another "characters should age" versus "they should always be kept young" debate, but I will ask: at what point is it no longer okay to add to a character's mythos?

SEAN

Fatguy

11-13-2006, 01:31 AM

Is it really all that bad, though? Maybe if you specifically dislike the kid, okay, but just the idea of Batman having a kid?

I dont think so. I like the idea of Batman having a child, he's always had strong paternal instincts it seems (either that, or he's DC's version of Michael Jackson). So him having a son, especially one he felt responsible for "saving" seems like a great concept. Though I will say, this arc had its highs and lows. It ended in kind of a low note for me, it was a little cliche for them to vanish in a large explosion, with our hero standing on the shoreline to wonder what has become of them! It was a little bit of a let down, imho.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-13-2006, 08:09 AM

Is it really all that bad, though? Maybe if you specifically dislike the kid, okay, but just the idea of Batman having a kid?

I'm certainly not about to start another "characters should age" versus "they should always be kept young" debate, but I will ask: at what point is it no longer okay to add to a character's mythos
SEAN

I can focus my dislike of everything to do with Batman changing as being all post COIE.

There's been a steady decline in the quality of comics over 20 years.

I know I sound like a nark but there's nothing that rates in my eyes as much as the stuff I read when I was younger.

And before you ask "Why are you reading?", I'll say this.

It beats the alternative.

Harding Prime

11-13-2006, 03:57 PM

I can focus my dislike of everything to do with Batman changing as being all post COIE.

There's been a steady decline in the quality of comics over 20 years.

I know I sound like a nark but there's nothing that rates in my eyes as much as the stuff I read when I was younger.

And before you ask "Why are you reading?", I'll say this.

It beats the alternative.

I think that comics have gotten a lot better post 9/11 as just a figurative date. I think that writers have gotten on more adult subjects on bigger titles since then and the writing has improved because of that. I think Grant will do a great job on Batman, I do like that he is bringing Batman out of the duldrums of hate and isolation after the IC because he has been down since Robin died, with the breaking of the bat, No Man's Land, he hasn't had anything to be happy about, but I like the direction of the new Batman and hope for some more good stories ahead. But to be fair, I did like face the face better then Batman & Son, but I still really look forward for the next year of Morrison.

ForEverAncien

11-14-2006, 12:14 AM

Sorely disappointed.
Well, well, well. It seems as if Morrison realised that he goofed and tried to clean up his story somewhat (maybe the reason for the two week delay was he was doing re-writes). Everyone sounded much more in character this time around.

Talia actually mentioned that they had a romance, and Batman's reply was that it was a long time ago. So we can factor in her drugging him did not happen and Batman's response in 656 was sarcasm. It also negates my argument on another forum that Morisson reduced the complexity of Batman and Talia's relationship. To a one night shag. Also Damien seemed less like an evil Bart Simpson clone. And more like a child who was brought up to be vicious.

It reminded a lot of old times. It seems that Talia did her evil scheme in order to bring over to her side, so they could be a 'family'. Sound familiar?
Sounds warped and desperate. But let's not forget that she's been brainwashed.

Morisson has really re-deemed himself somewhat in my eyes. Not a masterpiece. But definetly made up for the last issue, and has brought things back on track.

Choppa

11-14-2006, 10:12 AM

Did I miss an issue or something? Where's the climax to this story? Did anything change in the end? What was its point?

literally exaggerated

11-14-2006, 12:46 PM

according to Morrison, this arc served to lay the groundwork for a story which will play out over his entire 15 issues or whatever run.

carabas

11-14-2006, 01:26 PM

This might be worth quoting here...

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/7Soldiers/7Soldierswrap_Morrison.html
I like it when the stories and characters start to push ME around. The current 'Batman & Son' storyline in Batman is a demonstration of how this can work - I'd originally planned a heartbreaking death scene for the Damian character in that book. He was to save Batman's life then perish in what was a really nice and emotional conclusion...then I started writing the character and realized he was too good to waste. He started coming to life as I wrote and I soon realized there was too much long-term story potential in this kid, so I had to completely discard my beautifully-constructed ending and instead leave it open and inconclusive for Damian and Talia's comeback which now forms a major strand of this 15-part Bat-novel I'm planning. If I'd stuck to my original plan, I'd have had a more affecting conclusion to a 4-part story but I'd have lost a character that will now provide me with a much bigger and more powerfully resonant finale.

So he did tinker with the ending, but did not do it to 'fix' non-existant flaws in characterisation or continuity or whatnot.

Bruce Wayne Jr.

11-14-2006, 01:48 PM

This might be worth quoting here...

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/7Soldiers/7Soldierswrap_Morrison.html

Hahahaha! I love it.

He changed the story not to appease the readers, but to prolong the shelf life of his ideas.

Paul Dee

11-14-2006, 02:37 PM

That he has a bigger picture in store pleases me to no end and makes this latest issue less of a disapointment. It must be hard to write a complete story while having to make the monthly fractions of it appealing enough for someone to continue reading it. I'm not trying to sound like a Morrison apologist here as he's not the sort of writer I'd immediately defend (regardless of me liking the majority of what I have read by him) but this sort of thing just seems to be natural given the medium in which he works in

Choppa

11-14-2006, 06:20 PM

While I'm glad to hear that this development won't just be swept under the rug, we didn't need four issues to introduce it. IMO, the main plot should have been fighting Talia and the ninja manbats, and the subplot should have been Damian. Or just save him for a surprise ending and have their interaction develop as a subplot throughout his arc.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-14-2006, 06:30 PM

The single underlying factor of any fiction (oops) is that you need to grab the reader's attention within the first part of any story for them to want to read on, by introducing characters that will grab your attention and make you care about what happens to them. Grant Morrison has failed to do that here.

Harding Prime

11-14-2006, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Grant Morrison
"I like it when the stories and characters start to push ME around. The current 'Batman & Son' storyline in Batman is a demonstration of how this can work - I'd originally planned a heartbreaking death scene for the Damian character in that book. He was to save Batman's life then perish in what was a really nice and emotional conclusion...then I started writing the character and realized he was too good to waste. He started coming to life as I wrote and I soon realized there was too much long-term story potential in this kid, so I had to completely discard my beautifully-constructed ending and instead leave it open and inconclusive for Damian and Talia's comeback which now forms a major strand of this 15-part Bat-novel I'm planning. If I'd stuck to my original plan, I'd have had a more affecting conclusion to a 4-part story but I'd have lost a character that will now provide me with a much bigger and more powerfully resonant finale."

And also, everyone who didn't like the ending of the story arc need to realize that its not the end of the story, but this chapter is his run that will be returned to.

Punch

11-15-2006, 12:24 AM

I'll certainly read the rest of GM's run, but this is the worst thing of his that I've read, by far. Absolutely no redeeming values in my eyes.

Harding Prime

11-15-2006, 04:40 PM

I'll certainly read the rest of GM's run, but this is the worst thing of his that I've read, by far. Absolutely no redeeming values in my eyes.

I think there will be redeeming qualities as the story has not ended...

Damo

11-15-2006, 04:51 PM

I think there will be redeeming qualities as the story has not ended...

Which might just mean a continuation of the qualities people disliked.

Joe Rice

11-15-2006, 06:24 PM

Which might just mean a continuation of the qualities a small number of loud people disliked.

There, fixed it.

Damo

11-15-2006, 07:20 PM

There, fixed it.

*Shrugs.* Hey, I'm not going to say that the people that didn't like, say, his take on Talia are in the majority. But looking around at this and other boards, there seem to be a lot of people either dissapointed or flat out disliking this arc for a variety of reasons. Damian, the characterization of Robin, the nonsense plans of Talia, the kinda flat resolution (and yeah, I'm seeing plenty of people saying this was flat even as the first part of a bigger story). Everyone tht disliked this hasn't had the same reasons, but I think you're being unrealistic to say the people that didn't like it are a small but loud number of people.

I was wrong to say "that people disliked" instead of "that some people disliked". But "small number" doesn't sound like a fair assessment of the overall reaction to the arc either.

Joe Rice

11-15-2006, 08:20 PM

I didn't like two of the issues, I'll be honest. But it had nothing to do with his treatment of a minor character.

Damo

11-15-2006, 08:27 PM

And while I would argue Talia's not "minor", if I ever say that most people didn't like this run because of how he wrote her, you'll know I've lost my mind. But there were definitely things in it that made people dislike the arc, and I don't believe they're a small number of loud people. Might be wrong, hard to tell on the internet, but that's how it looks from here. *Shrugs.*

For the record there were several other things in this that I didn't care for just as much as I didn't care for how Talia was written. This let me down in a way Morrison rarely has before.

Joe Rice

11-15-2006, 08:29 PM

And while I would argue Talia's not "minor",

Two-Face MIGHT not be minor. Ra's is probably minor. Talia is MIIIIIIINOR.

Damo

11-15-2006, 08:34 PM

We clearly have very different usages of the word. I would never call Ra's minor, not after several episodes of the Animated Series being devoted to him, and the billing he got in Batman Begins. I understand your reasoning, but I disagree with where you choose to put your "cut off points". A list where Two Face only gets "might not be minor" is flawed in my opinion. But honestly, this is just going to be opinion.

Joe Rice

11-15-2006, 08:39 PM

Major, to me, means essential to the story/legend. Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon, Joker, Catwoman, maybe the Penguin, but I doubt him. Everything else is minor at best.

The Shadow

11-15-2006, 09:00 PM

Major, to me, means essential to the story/legend. Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon, Joker, Catwoman, maybe the Penguin, but I doubt him. Everything else is minor at best.
I'm with Joe on this.

There might be varying degrees of minor... Two-Face and Croc might be higher up the minority scale... but Talia is a very minor player in the Bat-verse.

jetter_cheeze

11-15-2006, 11:28 PM

Major, to me, means essential to the story/legend. Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon, Joker, Catwoman, maybe the Penguin, but I doubt him. Everything else is minor at best.

Wow, that is a great way of putting it.

Those characters mentioned i might consider A-list characters. Ra's would be a b-list, and since Talia was a supporting member of Ra's i would consider her a C-list. With the death of Ra's she has the potential to become B-list, but this story, so far, does nothing to promote her to that level.

Mia

11-16-2006, 04:27 AM

Major, to me, means essential to the story/legend. Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon, Joker, Catwoman, maybe the Penguin, but I doubt him. Everything else is minor at best.

Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon are essential. None of the rest are. In fact given the fact that most of Batman stories are stand alones and centered around Batman,

You could take away Joker, Catwoman and it still would not change Batman or his motivations. Heck you can even take Robin away and the Bat stories would still be the same.

Joe Rice

11-16-2006, 05:04 AM

Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon are essential. None of the rest are. In fact given the fact that most of Batman stories are stand alones and centered around Batman,

You could take away Joker, Catwoman and it still would not change Batman or his motivations. Heck you can even take Robin away and the Bat stories would still be the same.

You can't tell the story of Achilles without Paris. You can't tell the story of Superman without Lex. You can't tell the story or Robin Hood without the Sheriff. Now, I'm not talking ONE STORY, I'm talking the legend. The legend of Batman includes the Joker. As with most legends, the diametric opposite must be a part of it.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-16-2006, 07:43 AM

You can't tell the story of Achilles without Paris. You can't tell the story of Superman without Lex. You can't tell the story or Robin Hood without the Sheriff. Now, I'm not talking ONE STORY, I'm talking the legend. The legend of Batman includes the Joker. As with most legends, the diametric opposite must be a part of it.

I hate to disagree but I remember a time when the Joker didn't turn up for a long stretch of issues.

Batman can go on without the Joker. He's honestly the crutch for Batman writers who run out of ideas or to sell comics.

As much as I hate to say it, Ed Brubaker did very well without the joker. I think that's because he doesn't know how to write him.

Joe Rice

11-16-2006, 07:44 AM

I hate to disagree but I remember a time when the Joker didn't turn up for a long stretch of issues.

Batman can go on without the Joker. He's honestly the crutch for Batman writers who run out of ideas or to sell comics.

As much as I hate to say it, Ed Brubaker did very well without the joker. I think that's because he doesn't know how to write him.

I'm not saying you can't write Batman stories without the Joker. I'm saying he's an integral part of the legend.

TheTen-EyedMan

11-16-2006, 07:54 AM

I'm not saying you can't write Batman stories without the Joker. I'm saying he's an integral part of the legend.

I know. It's like Doctor Who without the Daleks.

They, like the Joker, are ratings winners.

*EDIT*

A better allegory would be The Master.

He's the Doctor's arch enemy but you can count the amount of stories he is in as a small percentage.

That's why I dislike the Joker, because he's not only overexposed, he's one dimensional.

Bad guys have to have layers to work. To be complex. John Byrne tried to make him complex in the Gotham Knights story he did from 60 to 65 but it just made it seem silly.

Mia

11-16-2006, 10:48 AM

Joe Rice

11-16-2006, 10:50 AM

Bravo and well said! My point exactly.

So you misunderstood me, too.

Mia

11-16-2006, 10:53 AM

You can't tell the story of Achilles without Paris. You can't tell the story of Superman without Lex. You can't tell the story or Robin Hood without the Sheriff. Now, I'm not talking ONE STORY, I'm talking the legend. The legend of Batman includes the Joker.

Yes the Batman legend comprises of several villains. Including Ra's. When it comes down to it, the Joker really isn't anything but a cackling mad man. Easily interchangeble with any other nut job that Batman has been put up against.

As with most legends, the diametric opposite must be a part of it.

Interesting you put it that way. Becauase the diametric opposite to Batman is actualy Ra's. He's often been cited as Proffessor Moriarty to Batman's Sherlock Holmes. He's just as brilliant, strategic and driven as Batman. The perfect foe. It's the reason that I've always loved stories where Ra's shows up.

Joe Rice

11-16-2006, 10:55 AM

Yes the Batman legend comprises of several villains. Including Ra's. When it comes down to it, the Joker really isn't anything but a cackling mad man. Easily interchangeble with any other nut job that Batman has been put up against.

Interesting you put it that way. Becauase the diametric opposite to Batman is actualy Ra's. He's often been cited as Proffessor Moriarty to Batman's Sherlock Holmes. He's just as brilliant, strategic and driven as Batman. The perfect foe. It's the reason that I've always loved stories where Ra's shows up.

If you seriously think that Ra's, no matter how much you may like him, is a more major figure in the Batman myth than the Joker, you're beyond help.

Mia

11-16-2006, 11:02 AM

If you seriously think that Ra's, no matter how much you may like him, is a more major figure in the Batman myth than the Joker, .

But the discussion here is who is an essential figure to Batman's stories. Not the figure who used most. Sure the Joker has been used the most. He's also been around longer than Ra's. So that's a non starter.

But he's not essential. Like TEM pointed out before there have been tons of stories without the use of the Joker. If he was essential to the Batman stories. Then it implies that Batman stories could not be told without him.

you're beyond help.

Right back at you. ;)

Joe Rice

11-16-2006, 11:03 AM

ESSENTIAL TO THE OVERALL MYTH. Not individual stories.

Brian Cronin

11-16-2006, 11:08 AM

It's a weird place to be.

On the one hand, when you hear stuff like "Ra's is a more essential figure than the Joker" then your first instinct is to just say, "Well, forget it, then, obviously it isn't worth arguing the point if you're trying to put forth a stance like that," but on the other hand, that leaves "Ra's is a more essential figure than Joker" out there uncontested, and that's no good, either.

In any event, Ra's is a good character. It's certainly no insult to people who like the character a lot to say that Joker is a more essential figure to Batman comic books.

-Brian

jetter_cheeze

11-16-2006, 12:09 PM

Bad guys have to have layers to work. To be complex. John Byrne tried to make him complex in the Gotham Knights story he did from 60 to 65 but it just made it seem silly.

What? I thought that lieberman wrote those issues, or were they ghost written?

Interesting you put it that way. Becauase the diametric opposite to Batman is actualy Ra's. He's often been cited as Proffessor Moriarty to Batman's Sherlock Holmes. He's just as brilliant, strategic and driven as Batman. The perfect foe. It's the reason that I've always loved stories where Ra's shows up.

Watching Ra's and Batman fight, when well written, is like watching two chess masters in a match, it can become very interesting to see what happens, and you know everything is calculated out in the beginning with these guys. Does that make him the perfect villian? I believe not. The best ying to Batman's yang is Joker, when well written, because it is an adversary that Batman can't really prepare for. Joker's next move is a mystery, sometimes even to himself, and his methods and madness are an equal balance and interesting dynamic to Batman's calculated methods.

The amount of times a villian has been used in a comic shouldn't be a determinig factor when trying to compare who is better.

Paul Dee

11-16-2006, 12:12 PM

Becauase the diametric opposite to Batman is actualy Ra's. He's often been cited as Proffessor Moriarty to Batman's Sherlock Holmes. He's just as brilliant, strategic and driven as Batman. The perfect foe. It's the reason that I've always loved stories where Ra's shows up.

But then there's the "Batman is an attempt to establish order in a chaotic words and the Joker represents that very chaos that Batman is trying to eliminate" argument which does show the Joker as a diametric opposite to Batman so it's hard to say. Then again, there doesn't have to be one singular diametric opposite to Batman and considering how many facets there are to him as a character I think it's fair to say that the characters of Ra's and the Joker directly oppose that of Batmans, without any sort of contradiction.

Brian Cronin

11-16-2006, 12:15 PM

Good point, Paul.

They both are opposites of Batman - Batman is a fairly multi-faceted character, so it only makes sense that each facet would have an opposite.

-Brian

Fatguy

11-16-2006, 12:56 PM

I THINK what Joe Rice means by essential to the myth, is that the Joker is a more universally known icon associated with Batman. What makes a character iconic, is that NON-fans know these characters as well as fans, people who dont know Star Wars know Darth Vader, just like people who dont know Batman still know the Joker and know he's Batman's archnemesis. Ra's is an EXCELLENT character, whom I like a lot, but pretty much only comic fans appreciate him. Joker is by far more ingrained into the Batman mythos, and therefore an essential character.

The Shadow

11-16-2006, 02:19 PM

As much as I hate to say it, Ed Brubaker did very well without the joker. I think that's because he doesn't know how to write him.
Go read Batman: The Man Who Laughs if you think Brubaker doesn't know how to write the Joker.

Damo

11-16-2006, 02:50 PM

Well frankly I'm not fond of the whole "Major" and "Minor" terminology being used. Honestly, if you're going to limit "Major" to about 5 characters and call eeeeeeveryone else some degree of minor, well, that's your business. But if you're going to say only a very tiny number of character are "Major" then I really have to raise an eyebrow at the sentiment that started this, that the characterization of a "minor" character isn't that important. But hey, whatever.

Personally I consider a much broader range of characters to be "major". And I'm not that fond of using the terms anyway. "Minor" is often used to mean unimportant, and that's a heck of a lot of characters to lump together under one ranking in terms of importance. Now, if you asked me who are the main characters in the mythos, well, that's something else.

Sean Whitmore

11-16-2006, 03:13 PM

I don't have the vocabulary to make this sound intelligent, but there is a difference between how a comic reader of 10+ years might rank Batman's villains, and what is important to the character's legend.

Joker is to Batman as Moriarty is to Sherlock Holmes, in that you could never read a Batman or Holmes book in your life and you still know who Joker and Moriarty are.

Same with, say, Star Trek. Someone who's never seen an episode of Star Trek likely still knows who the Klingons are. The Klingons are important to the Star Trek mythos. This despite the fact that they are not as powerful as Q, as deadly as the Cardassians, as dangerous as the Borg, etc, etc.

I don't dislike Ra's. Nor do I dislike, say, Clayface. And while Ra's may be a tougher foe than Clayface, with deeper emotional ties to Batman, they are both equally as important to the Batman mythos (which is to say, less so than Joker or Catwoman).

SEAN

carabas

11-17-2006, 02:22 AM

Joker is to Batman as Moriarty is to Sherlock Holmes, in that you could never read a Batman or Holmes book in your life and you still know who Joker and Moriarty are.

Of course, you could also read 90% a lot of all Holmes and Batman stories, and never even encounter either of their nemesiseseses.

As for the 'myth' of Batman, there's exactly four characters that are essential: Bruce Wayne, Martha and Thomas Wayne, and Joe Chill.
All else is extra, even the police commisionar and the butler, and certainly all of the rogues, including Ra's and the Joker.

Now if you go by Year One instead of the earlier versions, you can add Gordon, Alfred and Harvey Dent to the essential character list.

Harding Prime

11-17-2006, 11:21 AM

Of course, you could also read 90% a lot of all Holmes and Batman stories, and never even encounter either of their nemesiseseses.

As for the 'myth' of Batman, there's exactly four characters that are essential: Bruce Wayne, Martha and Thomas Wayne, and Joe Chill.
All else is extra, even the police commisionar and the butler, and certainly all of the rogues, including Ra's and the Joker.

Now if you go by Year One instead of the earlier versions, you can add Gordon, Alfred and Harvey Dent to the essential character list.

Not particulary, those are the ones essential to his origin, not the character that has developed since he first dawned the cape and cowl. More then any, Joker is the one that has shaped Batman into the cold and bitter character before the Infinite Crisis. Talia only shows up every year or so, and the best they were was before Todd died, so, there relationship hasn't left a lasting bitterness that other dealings in his life had. She didn't even appear during the entire "Knight" arcs.