When did Alfred become sarcastic?

[Sean Whitmore]

It's something I've always wondered...for, like, a week now.

At what point did Batman's faithful butler start developing the dry, British wit that we all know and love so well? And what influenced the change?

You read old Batman comics from the early 80's back, Alfred really wasn't a funny guy. He might crack an occasional joke, like everyone did, but he wasn't exactly witty. And he definitely didn't put on a stoic, unaffected air like he currently does. He was basically a less effeminate Jarvis.

I wonder if the movie Arthur had anything to do with it, because the valet character Hobson seems almost like a model for modern-day Alfie.

Arthur: "Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take a bath."
Hobson: "I'll alert the media."

The earliest story I can think of that features Alfred's deadpan humor was Dark Knight Returns:

Alfred: "That refugee charity called..."
Bruce: "Write them a check."
Alfred: "And the Committe for the Prevention of Obsessive Behavior in Middle-Aged Men?"
Bruce: "Write them a check."
Alfred: "Very good, sir. Your sense of humor is keen as ever, sir."

But then, everyone was darkly humorous in that one. But was Miller the inspiration for a funny Alfred in the regular Batbooks? A later writer? Could it have been the performance of Michael Gough, or even Efrem Zimbalist Jr.?


SEAN

[the goddamn batman]

I don't know what inspired the person that set it in motion with Alfred, but...


"80's back"

Frank Miller. In DKR Alfred jokes to Bruce about drinking all the wine. I dunno, it's lent out at the moment, but... Frank has certainly left his mark on the Batman Universe.

Batman: The Animated Series certainly had the sarcastic Alfred.

Did Burtons movies? I can't recall.

[Cam63]

The 1940s Alfred could be a bit of a funny bugger.

[Chad]

It could be that Miller's Year One retcon which placed Alfred further back into Bruce Wayne's past made it acceptable for him to carry an air of sarcasm which wouldn't have been appropriate for his pre-Crisis self. As a paid employee (who was nevertheless certainly loved by his employers and considered a member of the family almost from the start) it might have been strange for him to be constantly mouthing off to his boss, but as someone who raised Bruce Wayne after his parents murder, he might very well see it as his duty to point out when he is getting too obsessive. Keep in mind, pre-Crisis Alfred started off as a strong admirer of Batman even before meeting his alter-ego.

Miller also introduced a Batman who needed to be criticised from time to time. Prior to Dark Knight, Batman was psychologically healthy enough that there was really no need to point out his obsessiveness through sarcasm. Of course, Alfred's wit isn't always critical. I was recently rereading an issue from Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle's Tec run (594 I believe) which had Batman calling Alfred for some info. Alfred then proceeded to ask if Batman required him to get his knuckle dusters, pack his rod, and help him clean up the streets of Gotham.

Really great question though. I'm having trouble thinking of this being a releatively new feature to the character so I'm not entirely convinced that Alfred waited 43 years to display his wit. Am I wrong in thinking that Alan Napier's Alfred had a strong wit?

[Tobias March]

Did Burtons movies? I can't recall.

Burton's Alfred had a sort of wry whimsy about him. It was Michael Caine who brought something of a mother hen into his performance (funny all the same, but still).

[Punch]

"Don't MAKE me...."
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/punch360/alfred1966-tv-sm-2.jpg

[Sean Whitmore]

It could be that Miller's Year One retcon which placed Alfred further back into Bruce Wayne's past made it acceptable for him to carry an air of sarcasm which wouldn't have been appropriate for his pre-Crisis self. As a paid employee (who was nevertheless certainly loved by his employers and considered a member of the family almost from the start) it might have been strange for him to be constantly mouthing off to his boss, but as someone who raised Bruce Wayne after his parents murder, he might very well see it as his duty to point out when he is getting too obsessive.

Excellent point. Seems like, whether he intended to or not, Miller is the root of Alfred's change from a Dr. Watson to a John Cleese.

Making Alfred the Wayne's butler was an awesome retcon, by the way. I don't think Miller get enough credit for that.



Am I wrong in thinking that Alan Napier's Alfred had a strong wit?

It was definitly of the good-natured variety, from what I remember. But of course that could be because Adam West's Batman wasn't an obsessive who needed Alfred to take him down a peg every now and again.


SEAN

[jaguarshark]

I'm pretty sure it's a Miller thing, too. It's interesting to think about how many of Miller's additions/changes to the Batverse have stuck...

The borderline psychotic Batman has popped up a lot since then, the Alfred change was brilliant, and Miller's version of Gordon (as well as Sarah Essen) were big parts of the Bat-books for a long time, and there were unsubtle hints in JLA #0 that the animosity with Superman hasn't been completely done away with yet. Selina as a hooker has been retconned though, hasn't it?

[Sean Whitmore]

Selina as a hooker has been retconned though, hasn't it?

I think the unofficial expalantion is that she was a dominatrix who never actually had sex.

Although Holly from Year One is still around in Catwoman.


SEAN

[jaguarshark]

I think the unofficial expalantion is that she was a dominatrix who never actually had sex.

Although Holly from Year One is still around in Catwoman.


SEAN
Oh yeah, they definitely haven't forgotten it altogether. I just meant, didn't they retcon it so that she was actually a jewel thief posing as a hooker/dominatrix? Or did I just make that up?

[Sean Whitmore]

Oh yeah, they definitely haven't forgotten it altogether. I just meant, didn't they retcon it so that she was actually a jewel thief posing as a hooker/dominatrix? Or did I just make that up?

Definitely sounds like something they'd do. :) But if it happened in that Catwoman Year One story from her last series, I never read it.


SEAN

[Punch]

I have no problem with her being a former prostitute, but if it must be "explained" I like the "Dominatrix/no sex" much better than "undercover"

[Greg Hatcher]

For the record: yes, it was, in fact, Frank Miller in the first Dark Knight that re-imagined Alfred as a deadpan wit. And he lifted it directly from John Gielgud in Arthur. He was quite vocal about it in interviews at the time. Said that was how he imagined Alfred would sound.

[Sean Whitmore]

And he lifted it directly from John Gielgud in Arthur. He was quite vocal about it in interviews at the time. Said that was how he imagined Alfred would sound.

Ha! Called it. :D


SEAN

[Mark Wallace]

It's something I've always wondered...for, like, a week now.

At what point did Batman's faithful butler start developing the dry, British wit that we all know and love so well? And what influenced the change?
Are you implying that we Britons are sarcastic?

I'm sure I don't know what you mean.

[suedenim]

For the record: yes, it was, in fact, Frank Miller in the first Dark Knight that re-imagined Alfred as a deadpan wit. And he lifted it directly from John Gielgud in Arthur. He was quite vocal about it in interviews at the time. Said that was how he imagined Alfred would sound.

Frank Miller certainly "codified" it and went further with it, but I wouldn't say it was a completely different take on Alfred. He's always had a bit of P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves to him. I remember Doug Moench's early-'80s Alfred having a bit of snark, for instance.