Incredible Hulk 100 - Review/Spoilers

[Grizsly]

I know it's early, but I got it today and couldn't help myself. . .



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The main story is a good midway point, somewhat setting things up. There's a few good moments of Miek and Queen, plus a GREAT line from the Hulk ala Apocalypse Now. But look for the REAL action next month - this one was a regrouping breather type issue.

But the BACKUP story - with great art from Gary Frank - introduces a new kid, someone who figures out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk, and in such a cool and smooth manner - thought it was well done, and serves to both help intorduce a cool new character and lay the groundwork for the emminent conclusion of Planet Hulk. The interactions with Reed. . .pure genius. It's good to know the Hulk still has some friends, even if he doesn't care or know they exist.

Enjoy - Planet Hulk continues it's stellar run and begins to build to a very tangible explosive conclusion. . .

[Expletive Deleted]

And . . . now we're good to go.

[CMBMOOL]

Could you please spill some more detail on the backup story ? :D

[Soundrave]

But the BACKUP story - with great art from Gary Frank - introduces a new kid, someone who figures out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk, and in such a cool and smooth manner - thought it was well done, and serves to both help intorduce a cool new character and lay the groundwork for the emminent conclusion of Planet Hulk. The interactions with Reed. . .pure genius. It's good to know the Hulk still has some friends, even if he doesn't care or know they exist.

It's not a brand new character. The kid is Mastermind Excello (Amadeus Cho) from Pak's Amazing Fantasy #15 story.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Question for those who've read the book (darned Pacific Ocean's delaying the shipment again for me) - wikipedia says that the backup story, as well as addressing the Illuminati's exiling of Hulk, has to do with Reed's creation of the Thor clone. Is that so, and would you say #100 has any value to a Civil War fan (who's not a regular Hulk reader)?

I know it won't be a full-fledged tie-in or anything, I'm just wondering if there's anything of substance in the backup story re: CW - however brief - or if it just retreads material already seen in CW books elsewhere.

[Expletive Deleted]

Reed is working on the Thor clone in the aftermath of CW #4. Mastermind Excello (who, by the way, is awesome) taunts him that the Illuminati would've saved more lives if they'd sent themselves into space.

[CMBMOOL]

It's Reed working on the Thor clone in the aftermath of CW #4. Mastermind Excello (who, by the way, is awesome) taunts him that the Illuminati would've saved more lives if they'd sent themselves into space.


AMEN TO THAT !!! :D

[tjarvis]

Reed is working on the Thor clone in the aftermath of CW #4. Mastermind Excello (who, by the way, is awesome) taunts him that the Illuminati would've saved more lives if they'd sent themselves into space.

I remember reading Mastermind Excello and liking the character in Amazing Fantasy. That said, who the hell is he to taunt Reed "I have a four digit IQ" Richards? Stupid whippersnappers, showing no respect for their older and smarter scientists.

All jokes aside, and not having read the issue yet, I hope this doesn't portray somebody actually outsmarting Reed in order to get the information.

[CMBMOOL]

Could you please spill some more detail on the backup story ? :D


Is anyone willing to spoil the back up story ? :(

[The Purple Skull]

Is anyone willing to spoil the back up story ? :(
Amadeus Cho (Mastermind Excello) figured out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk. Cho totally runs circles around Reed Richards in terms of how he contacted Reed and how found out about the Hulk's exile, making him look like an idiot. Cho and Richards also find out that the Hulk is not in the planet they designated for him. Reed fails to locate Cho and is now figuratively s***ing his pants because Hulk's friends will eventually find out. The last page shows Cho on his motorcycle with a bunch of silhouettes behind. We assume these are the friends Reed was talking about.

Now the question is, who are the silhouettes? I'm guessing She-Hulk, Rick Jones and Marlo are 3 of the silhouettes. I noticed one of the silhouettes had wings. Maybe that's Nighthawk? I don't know. Great main story and backup.

[Magneto Rocks]

Amadeus Cho (Mastermind Excello) figured out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk. Cho totally runs circles around Reed Richards in terms of how he contacted Reed and how found out about the Hulk's exile, making him look like an idiot. Cho and Richards also find out that the Hulk is not in the planet they designated for him. Reed fails to locate Cho and is now figuratively s***ing his pants because Hulk's friends will eventually find out. The last page shows Cho on his motorcycle with a bunch of silhouettes behind. We assume these are the friends Reed was talking about.

Now the question is, who are the silhouettes? I'm guessing She-Hulk, Rick Jones and Marlo are 3 of the silhouettes. I noticed one of the silhouettes had wings. Maybe that's Nighthawk? I don't know. Great main story and backup.

Great, so basically now in order to make Reed look bad they're writing him completely out of character?

Funny how CW fails to make him as radically oOC in the whole event thus far as Hulk 100 does in a back-up story. Suddenly I anticipate WWH less if Grek Pak wrote that story.

[Kevinroc]

Great, so basically now in order to make Reed look bad they're writing him completely out of character?

Funny how CW fails to make him as radically oOC in the whole event thus far as Hulk 100 does in a back-up story. Suddenly I anticipate WWH less if Grek Pak wrote that story.

Not everybody views The Hulk as a monster. The idea of asking The Hulk for help and then exiling him to space is definitely not something to make anyone look good.

And in contrast to the points that Mastermind Excello makes in this issue, it makes Tony, Reed, Black Bolt and Strange (Strange by association) look like huge (insert insulting expletive of your choice here). Black Bolt even gave Hulk flowers as a sign of their friendship (insert dread at the realization of the number of Hulk/ Black Bolt slash fics probably written due to that mention in this issue).

The backstory essentially had Cho speaking on behalf of many fans when he basically said "you guys deserve to get your butts kicked by Hulk."

[Pendaran]

All jokes aside, and not having read the issue yet, I hope this doesn't portray somebody actually outsmarting Reed in order to get the information.

Seems like it does. Which if Pak created the character, and this is all of its second appearance.. that seems pretty Mary Sue-ish.

[Slade.]

Someone try to name all the "friends"?

[1WEBHEAD]

Great setup issue. Great back up issue.

On the main story, Can meik be the world breaker!?!?!:eek: I thought the backstory on the shadow dude was neat.Great work Pak and group for a great issue.I really enjoyed. :)

As for the second story with the Amadeus Cho (Mastermind Excello), I thought it was actually better than the main story!Its like Amadeus was in my head or something.He's a neat character who is right about evrything. Hulk saved Earth and its Superheroes just as much as the Fantastic Four and Avengers.

Great issue and extras!

10/10

[Michael P]

Reed is working on the Thor clone in the aftermath of CW #4. Mastermind Excello (who, by the way, is awesome) taunts him that the Illuminati would've saved more lives if they'd sent themselves into space.
http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Olorin9/thoh_snap.gif

[CMBMOOL]

Amadeus Cho (Mastermind Excello) figured out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk. Cho totally runs circles around Reed Richards in terms of how he contacted Reed and how found out about the Hulk's exile, making him look like an idiot. Cho and Richards also find out that the Hulk is not in the planet they designated for him. Reed fails to locate Cho and is now figuratively s***ing his pants because Hulk's friends will eventually find out. The last page shows Cho on his motorcycle with a bunch of silhouettes behind. We assume these are the friends Reed was talking about.

Now the question is, who are the silhouettes? I'm guessing She-Hulk, Rick Jones and Marlo are 3 of the silhouettes. I noticed one of the silhouettes had wings. Maybe that's Nighthawk? I don't know. Great main story and backup.

Well, the She-Hulk next arc is called Planet without a Hulk so hopefully we will see Cho in the arc telling She-Hulk what happen to her cousin. :D

[Kevinroc]

Well, the She-Hulk next arc is called Planet without a Hulk so hopefully we will see Cho in the arc telling She-Hulk what happen to her cousin. :D

IIRC, Bendis mentioned what Jen's reaction would be regarding that in a Wordballon.com interview. (I think it was in one of the Bendis tapes.)

Jen: "That was my cousin, you ********!"

[CMBMOOL]

IIRC, Bendis mentioned what Jen's reaction would be regarding that in a Wordballon.com interview. (I think it was in one of the Bendis tapes.)

Jen: "That was my cousin, you ********!"

Well, that is somewhat ironic knowing that both Slott and Bendis are on the same message board in Jinxworld, so maybe that is from the She-Hulk series. :)

[Sheldon]

This issue was great....Is the Amazing Fantasy issue with Mastermind Excello worth tracking down? What exactly happens in it?

[XPac]

It's interesting to see Reed on the opposite side of things.

When you do something underhanded like that, inevitably it begins to unravel itself. Similiar to how he has uncovered and stripped apart the schemes of various villians in the past, so someone is now doing to him.

[kal_el21]

To Greg Pak and Carlo Pagulayan: Please, pretty please, for the love of (insert your higher power here), school your peers on how to get a magnificent, well written, beautifully illustrated piece of work out on time!

I have been engrossed in this story arc since part one and each issue just gets better and better. Pak has done a very good job at fleshing out the cast of characters to the point that I really hope that there are no deaths with the exception of the emperors. Another bonus: THIS BOOK IS ALWAYS ON TIME!!!!! And personally, I'm enjoying more than "Civil War". The back-up story was good too. I really hope Cho ends being a regular character in the Hulk books or maybe even gets a roster spot on the Young Avengers.

[tjarvis]

Having read the story now, I'm not bothered by what happened.

Excello doesn't come close to outsmarting Reed on any real level. Cho uses Banner's old notes and encryptions to piggyback into Reed's information. And even while he's there, he only gets any further because it's equipment designed by S.H.I.E.L.D. and Reed decides to let him go through with it.

Now on a moral level, yeah Reed gets bitchslapped. Then again, I've long since given up hope that people are going to have Reed actually use something resembling logic and common sense to defend his viewpoints.

[Lanowar]

I did like how Reed shows him all the images of Hulk going on Rampages and Mastermind couteracting with the reasons why Hulk did those things and just simply put his idea of it always seems the Hulk snaps when people don't leave him alone and how Reed should'nt try to help because he makes things worse.

Great back up story all round I thought

[Jack]

Having read the story now, I'm not bothered by what happened.

Excello doesn't come close to outsmarting Reed on any real level. Cho uses Banner's old notes and encryptions to piggyback into Reed's information. And even while he's there, he only gets any further because it's equipment designed by S.H.I.E.L.D. and Reed decides to let him go through with it.

Now on a moral level, yeah Reed gets bitchslapped. Then again, I've long since given up hope that people are going to have Reed actually use something resembling logic and common sense to defend his viewpoints.
I suspect that the reason Reed didn't actually find Cho is that he realised that the kid might just have been right. At least, that's the way I choose to interpret it.

Now, I'm interested in the silhouettes of Hulk's friends.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6955/hulkfriendsvb1.gif

That looks like: Rick Jones, Nighthawk, ???, Doc Samson, Marlo/Betty?, ??? and She Hulk. Could be anyone, though. I'm probably missing some really obvious ones.

[XPac]

I did like how Reed shows him all the images of Hulk going on Rampages and Mastermind couteracting with the reasons why Hulk did those things and just simply put his idea of it always seems the Hulk snaps when people don't leave him alone and how Reed should'nt try to help because he makes things worse.

Great back up story all round I thought

I liked that too. As someone else said, it's something plenty of fans and I'll wager even plenty of marvel writers wanted to point out. But until now no one could defend Hulk since no one knew about it, and Hulk wouldn't bother defending himself.

It should be interesting to see who ends up siding with Hulk. It's a shame Dr. Strange was among the people that decided to exile Hulk, cause I definatele would't have minded a kind of Defenders reunion here.

[XPac]

That looks like: Rick Jones, Nighthawk, ???, Doc Samson, Marlo/Betty?, ??? and She Hulk. Could be anyone, though. I'm probably missing some really obvious ones.

None of them look like Namor though... and he was one I was kind of hoping would show up since he stuck up for Hulk at the Illuminati meeting and even threatened the others if they moved against him.

[Soundrave]

I suspect that the reason Reed didn't actually find Cho is that he realised that the kid might just have been right. At least, that's the way I choose to interpret it.

Now, I'm interested in the silhouettes of Hulk's friends.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6955/hulkfriendsvb1.gif

That looks like: Rick Jones, Nighthawk, ???, Doc Samson, Marlo/Betty?, ??? and She Hulk. Could be anyone, though. I'm probably missing some really obvious ones.

I'm gonna guess: Iceman, Angel, Black Widow (remember how they said PAD's Champions story in the Giant-Size issue was going to have repercussions after Planet Hulk?), Doc Samson, Marlo, Rick Jones, and She-Hulk.

[Slumber Hulk]

100! A great number; a great issue! I'm surprised how much I liked the back up Planet Cho, and it seems that is what we are all talking about!

You start thinking about Hulk's friends and it turns out half of them sent him into space! Other friends who might show up: The Sentry, The Thing and Wolverine! I'd like to see the Sentry's take on this whole thing.

I just hope he brings his Warbound buddies back with him.

[Effect]

Could the flowing hair buy on the right be Sentry?

[Mariah]

I know it's almost over, but is Planet Hulk worth getting?

[CMBMOOL]

I'm guessing She-Hulk due to her next arc in her ongoing series called Planet without a Hulk, Samson, Rick and Marlo, the Champions due to them owning the Hulk forgivness of attacking him and also due to the solicts for Giant Size Hulk.

Hey, maybe Namor could help out given their history together, while it may be bad they did respected one another. Plus, I'm hoping for Thing to snap out of his funk attitude in Civil War and started acting normal again, maybe when he learns the truth he would once again turn on Reed and fight with the Hulk. I'm also hoping for Wolverine to help out due to him being brainwashed by Hydra and nearly destroying the Marvel heroes, and given his connection to the Hulk and their tempers. :D

[CMBMOOL]

I know it's almost over, but is Planet Hulk worth getting?

Yes, if you like an adventure in a far off planet where you try to liberate the tryrant ruling the planet and making friends along the way. :D

[Jack]

Could the flowing hair buy on the right be Sentry?
None of them look like Namor though... and he was one I was kind of hoping would show up since he stuck up for Hulk at the Illuminati meeting and even threatened the others if they moved against him.I agree that both of these guys should be on Hulk's side. I don't think, however, that Sentry would move against Reed for Hulk. He'd probably stay neutral.

Namor, though... Him not being in the picture doesn't mean he won't be on Hulk's side, of course. It might be that they felt his silhouette was too distinctive. It would be like DC doing this and having a silhouette of Batman. No one is going to be surprised that the big guy with the cape and the pointy cowl turns out to be Batman.

[Arron]

In his 3rd appearance, Mary "Mastermind" Sue is going to outfox Galactus and make out with the Invisible Woman on his scooter behind the 7-11...

[stormkid]

Whoa awsome stuff! I thought it was funny how the Brood was retelling the story for the children using little dolls, it kind of reminds me of C3PO from star wars. Also it was cool how Korg was explaining that he would likley be the only one to outlive everyone else after they all die out. I just hope Hulk's crew survives the story because I've grown attached to them over the last year.
The Mastermind back up story was neat in how the different view points of the Hulk are contrasted. Is Richards going through a mental breakdown or something? His look is very psychotic.

[CMBMOOL]

The Mastermind back up story was neat in how the different view points of the Hulk are contrasted. Is Richards going through a mental breakdown or something? His look is very psychotic.

Seems like the stress of him lossing his family/team is getting to Reed Richards. :rolleyes:

[Omega Alpha]

I know it's almost over, but is Planet Hulk worth getting?

It's better to read from the beginning. I would wait for the trades.

[Mariah]

It's better to read from the beginning. I would wait for the trades.
Too late. I bought 92, 94, 97-100 today.

[Kevinroc]

In his 3rd appearance, Mary "Mastermind" Sue is going to outfox Galactus and make out with the Invisible Woman on his scooter behind the 7-11...

I'd have been harping more on the whole "Mary Sue" thing if Tony Stark hadn't recently hacked into Reed's security systems with much greater ease and since Planet Cho made it clear that the only reason Cho was able to do that so easily was because he used Banner's notes.

[Pendaran]

Being fair to Tony Stark doing that, he's previously hacked Doctor Doom's computers, and has been complimented on his ability to do things like that by people like Doom and Richards. He's also implied as having had an indepth look at how Cloc works and was set up. Hell, Cloc is right ontop of where Tony has been living for months now.

He also wasn't being /actively opposed by Reed or Doom at the time/. That might be what people find excessive. Reed can't even stop the guy when he knows it's going on or shut him down before he starts going through his files, or even do something to prevent his purloined files from being read through, once taken.

It's hacking Reed's system, while Reed is sitting right there, and Reed basically manages not much in response.

Oh, and Reed starts talking about how awesome Cho is while Cho is showing him up. It's another Sue hallmark as far as the checklist of such things goes.

[Cthulhudrew]

That looks like: Rick Jones, Nighthawk, ???, Doc Samson, Marlo/Betty?, ??? and She Hulk. Could be anyone, though. I'm probably missing some really obvious ones.

Not sure about Nighthawk- that figure's got hair flowing, and Nighthawk has a full mask. Can't think of any other winged heroes the Hulk has associations with, though offhand. (He and Nighthawk were in Defenders together, maybe Red Raven, but I think RR has a full mask/no hair showing too.)

[anthony!]

It's better to read from the beginning. I would wait for the trades.

I'm surprised none have been released yet. Will the entire story be collected in one big tpb? I might be up for that...

[Kevinroc]

Being fair to Tony Stark doing that, he's previously hacked Doctor Doom's computers, and has been complimented on his ability to do things like that by people like Doom and Richards. He's also implied as having had an indepth look at how Cloc works and was set up. Hell, Cloc is right ontop of where Tony has been living for months now.

He also wasn't being /actively opposed by Reed or Doom at the time/. That might be what people find excessive. Reed can't even stop the guy when he knows it's going on or shut him down before he starts going through his files, or even do something to prevent his purloined files from being read through, once taken.

It's hacking Reed's system, while Reed is sitting right there, and Reed basically manages not much in response.

Oh, and Reed starts talking about how awesome Cho is while Cho is showing him up. It's another Sue hallmark as far as the checklist of such things goes.

Cho: "Banner figured out the hack years ago -- It's all right here in his notes. I just needed a current voice imprint from you to update the security bypass."

Cho needed Banner's notes.

[Soundrave]

Not sure about Nighthawk- that figure's got hair flowing, and Nighthawk has a full mask. Can't think of any other winged heroes the Hulk has associations with, though offhand. (He and Nighthawk were in Defenders together, maybe Red Raven, but I think RR has a full mask/no hair showing too.)

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=3913363#post3913363

[Pendaran]

Cho: "Banner figured out the hack years ago -- It's all right here in his notes. I just needed a current voice imprint from you to update the security bypass."

Cho needed Banner's notes.

You know, while we're there, Bruce Banner had regular enough access to Reed's computers to figure out how to hack them, Reed himself never actually improving his computers after years of.. improving his computers? And Cho happens to pull them out from his ass in order to mess Reed up with?

There's also Reed still managing basically jack in response, and talking about how awesome the person screwing him is, while being screwed. Cho still hits plenty of bullet points on the list.

[jade_nova]

It's better to read from the beginning. I would wait for the trades.

Do you know when the trades are going to start coming out, because I missed the first part.

[tjarvis]

You know, while we're there, Bruce Banner had regular enough access to Reed's computers to figure out how to hack them, Reed himself never actually improving his computers after years of.. improving his computers? And Cho happens to pull them out from his ass in order to mess Reed up with?

There's also Reed still managing basically jack in response, and talking about how awesome the person screwing him is, while being screwed. Cho still hits plenty of bullet points on the list.

The satellite that Cho hacks isn't even Reed's though. They point this out in the story. Reed says he hasn't had time to update it, it belongs to SHIELD. That's the only reason Cho is able to look at the satellite.

Secondly, Reed decides to let Cho take a look because he's confident in what he has done.

Reed really doesn't get shown up in any real way here, at least not in any way that makes him look inferior to Cho. I was worried about that happening, but Pak didn't bury Reed to make Mastermind look better. And I'm pretty sure that when the two meet again (and the will in World War Hulk I'd imagine), Cho is going to be the one in trouble.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Has Planet Hulk been excellent, good, or mediocre so far?

[Pendaran]

Has Planet Hulk been excellent, good, or mediocre so far?

Planet Hulk itself continues to be good, this backup story I found pretty bad.

The satellite that Cho hacks isn't even Reed's though. They point this out in the story. Reed says he hasn't had time to update it, it belongs to SHIELD. That's the only reason Cho is able to look at the satellite.


Reed's response to being hacked is to do all of shout "lockdown! reboot!", Cho points out Reed can't do anything about what he's already taken when Reed says he's going to shut him down, and Reed at that point basically goes "darn, you're totally right, I'm not Reed Richards or anything. Also, you're totally awesome."

Secondly, Reed decides to let Cho take a look because he's confident in what he has done.


And as per various Sue checklists, this serves as lead in for Cho to now show up Reed morally with some one sided arguements that Reed can only sputter impotently in the face of. While talking about how awesome Cho is.

Reed really doesn't get shown up in any real way here, at least not in any way that makes him look inferior to Cho.

He's bested by all of Bruce Banner's notes in Cho's hands, by outdated crap in an old hideout while he's in his shiny lab, he can't manage a remote counterarguement, he constantly talks about how awesome his opponent is when not stunned into total silence by his statements.. Seemed like it to me. Oh, and Reed's apparently doltish to the point where he hasn't even been checking his own probes to make sure exiling the Hulk went off, and has to have Cho point it out to him. Which is some more "I could think to do this, you could not."

*shrug* That's how it read when I picked it up, and it doesn't seem to be an isolated view.

[Zero Hunter]

I just think the longer Reed is working with and around Stark the more arogent he has been getting about his own intellect. That is why he never bothered to check on the Hulk because there was no way in his mind that something could have gone wrong. I mean Richards ever since the whole Iluminati thing has come out has been being shown to be not worried about the effects of what he does just if they seem to work or not. He is all about making it work and once it does he seems to he forgets about it and moves on to the next thing.

Lets all face it the Reed Richards of today is a cold machine like man who only seems to think in pure logic. The old Reed WOULD have made sure the Hulk got to the other planet, and then he would have made his little speech about doing this for your own good that Hulk saw in the capsule. And if they are showing Reed being dumb enough to not think that the Hulk would flip out when they told him he was never coming home then that is the Richards we have to deal with. I mean think about it if your are going to exile the Hulk wouldn't it have made sence to knock him out in the capsule until he was at the planet before waking him and telling him?

[Mariah]

I just think the longer Reed is working with and around Stark the more arogent he has been getting about his own intellect. That is why he never bothered to check on the Hulk because there was no way in his mind that something could have gone wrong. I mean Richards ever since the whole Iluminati thing has come out has been being shown to be not worried about the effects of what he does just if they seem to work or not. He is all about making it work and once it does he seems to he forgets about it and moves on to the next thing.

Lets all face it the Reed Richards of today is a cold machine like man who only seems to think in pure logic. The old Reed WOULD have made sure the Hulk got to the other planet, and then he would have made his little speech about doing this for your own good that Hulk saw in the capsule. And if they are showing Reed being dumb enough to not think that the Hulk would flip out when they told him he was never coming home then that is the Richards we have to deal with. I mean think about it if your are going to exile the Hulk wouldn't it have made sence to knock him out in the capsule until he was at the planet before waking him and telling him?
Ooh, that's a good way of putting how he has behaved himself recently.

Very well thoughtout and insightful.

[Kevinroc]

By the way, two of Reed's examples were the justifications for the two times Marvel's heroes exiled The Hulk. So seeing Cho take those arguements apart shouldn't be a problem. Those examples aren't Pak's fault since Marvel had used those examples to rationalize the decisions made by Strange, Reed and co.

And Cho didn't even reference Hulk smashing a giant asteroid, thus saving Earth. ;)

[Pendaran]

By the way, two of Reed's examples were the justifications for the two times Marvel's heroes exiled The Hulk. So seeing Cho take those arguements apart shouldn't be a problem. Those examples aren't Pak's fault since Marvel had used those examples to rationalize the decisions made by Strange, Reed and co.

Actually, in the Illuminati and New Avengers books where the decisions to so exile were made, references were made on the part of SHIELD and people like Reed and the like to a specific notion of regular death tolls attatched to no specific event, as far as the take of people like Millar and Bendis on the issue, it's what set off all the various arguements and for example, poll threads on this particular forum that would go "do you find realistic the notion that the Hulk's rampages are now being said to have caused.." and various people saying yes, no and why, arguing that a retconned take that such things are regularly caused.. etc. Hill, Reed or Stark in those issues could have easily been referring to things like the Hulk's spite rampage through L.A. where he was tossing train cars full of people around, or the like.

Pak had a wide variety of incidents Reed could have known about, and chose from, that would have entirely made sense to be in his files, I'm really not buying specific ones weren't picked for being easy to pick apart, especially when details like "the Hulk repelled an armada.. when Bruce was in control" don't even exist, and are instead used as an example of how the Hulk hates humans but saves them anyway. I missed the editorial dictate from Marvel going "only refer to these events, in this specific way".

Also, the arguement that "so long as you accept that Reed is now stupid and arrogant for no given reason, it all makes sense", I can't say sits particularly well. Basically it seems to read as little more than "the Millar/Bendis retcon that the Hulk's rampages had collateral death effects, were bad, because it makes the Hulk look bad, the Millar/Bendis/Pak retcon that Reed is an arrogant moron, is good, because it makes the Hulk look good."

[Kevinroc]

Actually, in the Illuminati and New Avengers books where the decisions to so exile were made, references were made on the part of SHIELD and people like Reed and the like to a specific notion of regular death tolls attatched to no specific event, as far as the take of people like Millar and Bendis on the issue, it's what set off all the various arguements and for example, poll threads on this particular forum that would go "do you find realistic the notion that the Hulk's rampages are now being said to have caused.." and various people saying yes, no and why, arguing that a retconned take that such things are regularly caused.. etc. Hill, Reed or Stark in those issues could have easily been referring to things like the Hulk's spite rampage through L.A. where he was tossing train cars full of people around, or the like.

Pak had a wide variety of incidents Reed could have known about, and chose from, that would have entirely made sense to be in his files, I'm really not buying specific ones weren't picked for being easy to pick apart. I missed the editorial dictate from Marvel going "only refer to these events".

Also, the arguement that "so long as you accept that Reed is now stupid and arrogant for no given reason, it all makes sense", I can't say sits particularly well. Basically it seems to read as little more than "the Millar/Bendis retcon that the Hulk's rampages had collateral death effects, were bad, because it makes the Hulk look bad, the Millar/Bendis/Pak retcon that Reed is an arrogant moron, is good, because it makes the Hulk look good."

The thrashing of New York and the Vegas thing were used as justifications. Hulk thrashing Vegas was specifically cited in Civil War.

So it makes sense for those references to be cited. The other references cited? Hey, some of the worst Hulk rampages aren't his fault.

It's not Pak's fault that *insert other writer here* has chosen to characterize Reed as he is currently being characterized. It's Marvel editorial deciding "this is how this character will act." Pak isn't even in charge of the Fantastic Four monthly, so he certainly doesn't have much of a voice on how Reed will act when Marvel editorial decides. The Reed we saw in a recent FF issue (where Sue gave him hell and then left) was very similar to the Reed that Pak used in Hulk #100.

So it's hardly Pak's fault that the only member of the Illuminati that voted to exile Hulk that still has a claim to morality is Dr. Strange. Marvel editorial basically told Pak "hey, we're gonna send Hulk to an alien planet. Want the job?"

[Pendaran]

So it makes sense for those references to be cited. The other references cited? Hey, some of the worst Hulk rampages aren't his fault.

And some of them are. That none of the Hulk's various ultimately poorly done actions are mentioned, and only the ones that can be easily picked apart as not his fault are, is pretty blatant. Especially when placed alongside situations talking about how great the Hulk actually is, while getting the details of those situations wrong. Reed can't even a manage a "actually, Banner was in control for the white house" in the face of Excello using it as an example of awesomeness.

It's not Pak's fault that *insert other writer here* has chosen to characterize Reed as he is currently being characterized. It's Marvel editorial deciding "this is how this character will act." Pak isn't even in charge of the Fantastic Four monthly, so he certainly doesn't have much of a voice on how Reed will act when Marvel editorial decides. The Reed we saw in a recent FF issue (where Sue gave him hell and then left) was very similar to the Reed that Pak used in Hulk #100.

Even that Reed hadn't quite sunk to the level of not being able to provide even a remote counter to the arguements of some kid he can't even manage any kind of retribution on for using old and outdated gear and protocols to hack his lab, can't get back his files from before the kid starts going through them despite talking about "shutting him down", then being told "no", and again, this boils down to "the retcons the Hulk got from Millar and Bendis were bad, because they make the Hulk look bad, Pak treating them as details to strawman via Reed is good. By comparison, the shift in Reed is an outstanding retcon." It's not simply portraying Reed as amoral, it's portraying him as so stupid he doesn't even check his own probes, and needs Pak's personal creation to point out to him how to think.

The thrashing of New York and the Vegas thing were used as justifications. Hulk thrashing Vegas was specifically cited in Civil War.

I said this:

Actually, in the Illuminati and New Avengers books where the decisions to so exile were made, references were made on the part of SHIELD and people like Reed and the like to a specific notion of regular death tolls attatched to no specific event, as far as the take of people like Millar and Bendis on the issue, it's what set off all the various arguements and for example, poll threads on this particular forum that would go "do you find realistic the notion that the Hulk's rampages are now being said to have caused.." and various people saying yes, no and why, arguing that a retconned take that such things are regularly caused.. etc. Hill, Reed or Stark in those issues could have easily been referring to things like the Hulk's spite rampage through L.A. where he was tossing train cars full of people around, or the like.

As this wasn't really responded to, I'll try to restate it. Millar and Bendis established outside of those incidents the concept of regular collateral death accompanying the Hulk as simply being a noted fact by even the people who know him best, like Namor. All Pak is doing is going "that retcon, bad! Reed retcon, good!". When Reed could even use /actual things the Hulk has done of his own violition that make him look really bad/.

Saying "yes, but Vegas and New York.." is doing nothing more than saying "these easily refuted instances are all I have to mention to prove how wrongheaded everything is, I don't have to address any other statements made".


So it's hardly Pak's fault that the only member of the Illuminati that voted to exile Hulk that still has a claim to morality is Dr. Strange. Marvel editorial basically told Pak "hey, we're gonna send Hulk to an alien planet. Want the job?"

It's entirely Pak's fault when he cherry picks what incidents to showcase, gets the details of others wrong and doesn't even have Reed be capable of noting that, and does so while basically portraying Reed as not simply morally dubious, but completely incompetent and incapable of response in the face of his personal pet character.

[CMBMOOL]

You know while it may be that Banner was in control of the Hulk at the time of the White house attack, the rest of the world may have seen it as the Hulk only tamed.

So I could see the confusion. :(

[Pendaran]

Actually, it became pretty blatant that Banner was now in control, the media started reporting on such and things like that.

[Lunal]

Yah, thats got to be Doc Sampson. B-b-but he is pro-reg oh nos! Loved this issue, it really brought together some nice elements and background on the Hulk. I'm just bummed that the story has to be dragged out longer because of the lateness of the CW magazine and its tie ins.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I'm in a different position to probably the majority of the posters on this thread - I'm not a regular Hulk reader, nor do I suppose I'll become one. I bought #100 because of the back-up story, and - given that it was otherwise a small week for me, comic-wise - I didn't mind spending some left-over cash on a big issue of a book that's been widely praised. And though I don't read Hulk, I know Hulk - everyone knows Hulk.

And I really enjoyed it. Coming into the Planet Hulk storyline cold, well, naturally I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the subtleties of it. But the issue catered well to that, and I felt the import of moments like Miek blasting his Queen, and Hiroim telling his story, even though I have no real idea where they came from and where they're going. In any case I like stories where I'm left to imagine the world around the story, rather than having all the background laid out on a platter, so that may have helped. But I don't imagine there'll be much disappointment from new readers who're just picking this up because of the notable issue number - the book could easily hold onto those readers.

Also, oh my, Caiera needs to call me :p

So far as the backup story goes, well, there wasn't much Civil War in there at all, but I don't mind reading around the edges - and having read NA: Illuminati, this wasn't a storyline I had no background of. Plus, I'm curious now to see if this Cho kid plays into She-Hulk's Planet (Without A) Hulk arc, from #15 onwards, seeing as I'd guessed that she'd find out her cousin's fate along the way somehow - so this backup story may tie into books I read closely yet.

I did find it a little annoying how Reed seemed unable to defend his decision to exile Hulk - Cho having a mutant/whatever ability to crunch numbers at phenomenal capacities I can buy, but intelligence doesn't equal wisdom in my book, and even Reed - who's not the most socially-minded of people anyway - shouldn't have been so flat-footed by a child in a morality debate. That said, I'm retaining a degree of scepticism about Cho - I think Reed's right, "Nobody's that smart," and I find it difficult to trust anyone whose attitude to their own fallibility is "I don't make mistakes." No-one is always right - some people are just good enough to believe they don't make mistakes. They tend to get a lot of other people killed, when they finally do make one.

I liked the reprints too - the origin story was necessary (and well-known already) but thankfully brief, and left plenty of room for the trial, which I found quite fascinating. Although the way every sentence used to end with an exclamation mark puts me in mind of the 'Tales of Interest!' voice-over from Futurama, which makes it amusing to read.

So, that's about it from me on Hulk. Unless Caiera gets an issue devoted largely to herself - if that happens, someone let me know, 'kay? ;)

[CMBMOOL]

I just notice something about the next She-Hulk arc Planet without a Hulk:

It's stated to be four issues in this arc and it ends in April, so maybe the story could continue in Incredible Hulk #105 where Planet Hulk ends. So that how the Hulk comes home. :D

Although it just a theory. :(

[Tony Starkz]

I suspect that the reason Reed didn't actually find Cho is that he realised that the kid might just have been right. At least, that's the way I choose to interpret it.

Now, I'm interested in the silhouettes of Hulk's friends.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6955/hulkfriendsvb1.gif

That looks like: Rick Jones, Nighthawk, ???, Doc Samson, Marlo/Betty?, ??? and She Hulk. Could be anyone, though. I'm probably missing some really obvious ones.

I think that's Sentry.Just a guess.

It would be cool if the person with wings was Angel.

[Lunal]

Also, oh my, Caiera needs to call me :p

I really like Caiera, she's definately my favorite new character. Sadly, i can't see her or any of the other support characters for this ark becoming Marvel regulars, but I wouldn't mind them making an exception for her in the least.

So far, i haven't really given this run of She-Hulk a shot. Maybe I'll pick it up.

[Kevinroc]

And some of them are. That none of the Hulk's various ultimately poorly done actions are mentioned, and only the ones that can be easily picked apart as not his fault are, is pretty blatant. Especially when placed alongside situations talking about how great the Hulk actually is, while getting the details of those situations wrong. Reed can't even a manage a "actually, Banner was in control for the white house" in the face of Excello using it as an example of awesomeness.

There's something about Reed I'll address later. But there are literally tons of examples that definitely speak well of The Hulk where Banner was not in control. The Godseye Satellite, for example.

Even that Reed hadn't quite sunk to the level of not being able to provide even a remote counter to the arguements of some kid he can't even manage any kind of retribution on for using old and outdated gear and protocols to hack his lab, can't get back his files from before the kid starts going through them despite talking about "shutting him down", then being told "no", and again, this boils down to "the retcons the Hulk got from Millar and Bendis were bad, because they make the Hulk look bad, Pak treating them as details to strawman via Reed is good. By comparison, the shift in Reed is an outstanding retcon." It's not simply portraying Reed as amoral, it's portraying him as so stupid he doesn't even check his own probes, and needs Pak's personal creation to point out to him how to think.

First up, why do you mention Millar? He didn't write New Avengers: Illuminati and I seriously doubt he had any input into the second story (the Planet Hulk tie-in) of the one-shot. He wrote that Ultimate Hulk killed people. Millar stated in interviews that he couldn't use Hulk in Civil War.

Bendis stated that he believes people die in Hulk rampages and Pak wants to keep it more ambiguous as it would answer the question of whether Hulk is a hero or a monster. I know what Cho said in the back-up to Hulk #100. But throughout the story itself, Hulk has called himself a monster and Banner called him out in Giant-Size Hulk #1 (the dream sequence where Hulk kills Earth's heroes).

The Reed thing. Reed was not happy with this decision. We're not talking about Dr. Doom. We're talking about Bruce Banner. Reed was so unhappy with the decision that the Illuminati made a video recording to explain to Bruce Banner why they did this. And Reed led that off by apologizing to Banner.

Why would Reed do anything like that (essentially putting targets on the Illuminati)? Because he felt really guilty about it. Reed didn't believe in his position on exiling Hulk 100%.

Hulk was a founding Avenger, a founding Defender, a friend to The Sentry, and a temporary member of The Fantastic Four.

I don't think it says much to argue that Reed didn't like this decision. It's also a great in-story reason as to why he never checked in on Hulk. He didn't want to remind himself of what he had done to his friend.

I said this:

As this wasn't really responded to, I'll try to restate it. Millar and Bendis established outside of those incidents the concept of regular collateral death accompanying the Hulk as simply being a noted fact by even the people who know him best, like Namor. All Pak is doing is going "that retcon, bad! Reed retcon, good!". When Reed could even use /actual things the Hulk has done of his own violition that make him look really bad/.

Saying "yes, but Vegas and New York.." is doing nothing more than saying "these easily refuted instances are all I have to mention to prove how wrongheaded everything is, I don't have to address any other statements made".

I talked about that a bit already (especially about Millar).

As the writer of Hulk, Pak has more say on The Hulk's status as a murderer or not over Bendis. Hulk isn't involved in Civil War (his thrashing Vegas was mentioned in passing in CW #1 and the only Hulk reference I can think of in the New Avengers title was Sentry imagining himself and Hulk stopping the Civil War). So your point is about Hulk in the Illuminati one-shot.

So Reed didn't like the decision to exile his friend and was then feeling responsible for the death of Black Goliath. Cho calls up and yells at Reed, talking about how there'd be less dead people if the Illuminati had shot themselves into space instead of Hulk during this whole Civil War.

It's entirely Pak's fault when he cherry picks what incidents to showcase, gets the details of others wrong and doesn't even have Reed be capable of noting that, and does so while basically portraying Reed as not simply morally dubious, but completely incompetent and incapable of response in the face of his personal pet character.

I think I pretty much explained myself on these parts.

[Pendaran]

There's something about Reed I'll address later. But there are literally tons of examples that definitely speak well of The Hulk where Banner was not in control. The Godseye Satellite, for example.

Pak makes the center spread of them the White House one, talking about pardons, all the gifts the Hulk got, and the like. It's how he even ties in ragging on Black Bolt and such. Reed can't manage to correct Cho on it, nor can he manage to bring up things the Hulk has done wrong in response to the screed of all the Hulk has done right, when the easily picked apart examples, are easily picked apart, while Cho shows him up intellectually and morally and Reed says how awesome he is.

I don't think it says much to argue that Reed didn't like this decision. It's also a great in-story reason as to why he never checked in on Hulk. He didn't want to remind himself of what he had done to his friend.

One that you're making up, as the comic itself only has Cho ragging on Reed being forgetful while pointing out the flaws in how he thinks. Reed mentions none of any of that, and it doesn't show him thinking about any of that, the only commentary is from Cho about Reed "forgetting about him" and Reed being shown as confident in his methods until Cho points out what has been ever so wrong with them.

This also does not respond to that your continued point remains easily boiled down to "retconned Reed good, retconned Hulk, bad."

Why would Reed do anything like that (essentially putting targets on the Illuminati)? Because he felt really guilty about it. Reed didn't believe in his position on exiling Hulk 100%.

Again, you're making things up. Reed in this backup piece is shown as arguing vigorously for his actions, until some cherry picked occurances are listed, and again, listed /wrongly/ that he's portrayed as too shocked and stupefied to be able to counter. He can only take them and be silent. And as you failed to provide where Marvel Editorial said "only use these", your basic arguement then becomes that it's fine for Pak to use Reed as a strawman to argue with Bendis.

You can talk about the Godseye, and how it's not Pak's fault, and whatever, but it doesn't change what the story put forward as the main focus, and how it showed Reed.

I talked about that a bit already (especially about Millar).

Not in any way that actually responded to points I've made with anything that moves beyond "it's good to use the retconned Reed to make him look bad, while ignoring the retconned Hulk so that the Hulk can look good."

As the writer of Hulk, Pak has more say on The Hulk's status as a murderer or not over Bendis.

So.. you're now arguing over which current Marvel writer counts more than another? Bendis is the one exploring Reed's motivation to exile the Hulk in the first place, when all Pak has managed is cherry picking incidents through his pet character and writing Reed as an incompetent easily cowed dolt.

So your point is about Hulk in the Illuminati one-shot.


To which your answer is now "that comic does not count, this comic counts, nevermind it's cherry picked strawman arguements and slanted, incompetent portrayal of Reed Richards."

I've said a few times now that this reads basically like Pak taking shots through his personal character to make the arguement he wants to make, while ignoring or distorting points he doesn't like, and stances of other writers he doesn't like, down to not even addressing them in particularly balanced or reasonable manners.

Thank you for confirming that and agreeing with me.

Why even argue the Hulk's actual history now if your arguement is nothing more than "I want to ignore how this writer depicts things, because I like how this writer depicts things more, even when he gets things wrong". As that's your response to things like Illuminati, things like Pak getting the details of his centerpiece event wrong, things like nothing Reed could have actually brought up being mentioned...

I think I pretty much explained myself on these parts.

Yes, that if Gregg Pak wants to argue with Bendis via a Hulk backup story, he's allowed to do all the strawmanning, cherry picking, getting details wrong, ignoring ones he doesn't like, and writing of Reed as an idiot that he likes, I got it.

Saying that Pak should be able to ignore or distort whatever he likes in order to be able to make the Hulk look good in a story is certainly /an/ arguement, but it's not one that lets you claim that any exploration of the Hulk that goes on as a result, or portrayal of those he's opposing can be argued to be anything but specifically that. That's "I have an agenda, I'm going to ignore and change what doesn't fit."

[Kevinroc]

I just notice something about the next She-Hulk arc Planet without a Hulk:

It's stated to be four issues in this arc and it ends in April, so maybe the story could continue in Incredible Hulk #105 where Planet Hulk ends. So that how the Hulk comes home. :D

Although it just a theory. :(

I'm not looking to She-Hulk for the answer of Hulk's return. I think Planet Without A Hulk is just about She-Hulk fighting Hulk's enemies while Hulk is on Sakaar.

[Sean Whitmore]

Funny how CW fails to make him as radically oOC in the whole event thus far as Hulk 100 does in a back-up story.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Wait, are you serious?


SEAN

[Fatguy]

I loved the backup story, I thought it was great. I like Reed, and was a little bummed this made him seem even more cold, but it was a great in your face by this new character.

As to some of the points made, yea, Reed is smart, but that doesnt mean there arent smarter. I dont think its a complete slight on his character to have somebody show up and run mental circles around him.

[Sean Whitmore]

Mentallo-whateverhisnameis is listed as the 7th smartest person on the planet.

So if you're the smartest person on the planet, and pretty secure in that fact, and the 7th smartest person pops up and ambushes you (with assistance from Banner, who must be at least 4th or 5th smartest), it's not inconceivable that he'll have the upper hand for a little while.


SEAN

[tjarvis]

Mentallo-whateverhisnameis is listed as the 7th smartest person on the planet.

So if you're the smartest person on the planet, and pretty secure in that fact, and the 7th smartest person pops up and ambushes you (with assistance from Banner, who must be at least 4th or 5th smartest), it's not inconceivable that he'll have the upper hand for a little while.


SEAN

That's fairly true. How many FF stories have started out with someone like The Wizard or The Mad Thinker using their intelligence to get a temporary upper hand over Reed. It's only later on that Reed proves he is the smartest man on the planet by finding a way to turn their own plans on them.

Like I said, I'm bettting this is not the last we've seen of Reed confronting Cho. Mastermind Exello will most likely play a part in World War Hulk, and will probably confront Reed again. This time out, my money is on Reed Richards.

[garin]

It's pretty neat that Mastermind Excello's origin story is in "Amazing Fantasy #15". Shame there isn't a Spidey connection.

[Kevinroc]

Mentallo-whateverhisnameis is listed as the 7th smartest person on the planet.

So if you're the smartest person on the planet, and pretty secure in that fact, and the 7th smartest person pops up and ambushes you (with assistance from Banner, who must be at least 4th or 5th smartest), it's not inconceivable that he'll have the upper hand for a little while.


SEAN

Reed's also emotionally worn out due to the Civil War.

You ever just have a really bad day (on top of some previous bad days) and then someone calls you up to yell at you for something you did weeks ago?

[Sean Whitmore]

Reed's also emotionally worn out due to the Civil War.

You ever just have a really bad day (on top of some previous bad days) and then someone calls you up to yell at you for something you did weeks ago?


Especially if it was something you felt really crappy about doing, even at the time.

And let's not forget, Reed's learning now for the first time that Hulk isn't on the lush paradise world he thought he was sending him to. That might leave one a bit shocked and not at their best.

SEAN

[Pendaran]

Especially if it was something you felt really crappy about doing, even at the time.

And let's not forget, Reed's learning now for the first time that Hulk isn't on the lush paradise world he thought he was sending him to. That might leave one a bit shocked and not at their best.

SEAN

There's a marked difference between that and just being mute while a guy rails at you about points he's not even getting the details of right, and your counter dialogue mostly involves saying how awesome he is as he points out how you couldn't think to do something for months on end, even before Civil War went full blown, that he thought to do in minutes. *shrugs*

That's fairly true. How many FF stories have started out with someone like The Wizard or The Mad Thinker using their intelligence to get a temporary upper hand over Reed. It's only later on that Reed proves he is the smartest man on the planet by finding a way to turn their own plans on them.


They generally don't do so as what looks like a half assed effort of using old equipment on Reed's advanced lab, but of advanced schemes and long term planning. Especially in terms of the Mad Thinker, that's what he's practically defined by.

[ivesaidway2much]

There's a marked difference between that and just being mute while a guy rails at you about points he's not even getting the details of right, and your counter dialogue mostly involves saying how awesome he is as he points out how you couldn't think to do something for months on end, even before Civil War went full blown, that he thought to do in minutes. *shrugs*

I guess you haven't been reading the Civil War Tie-ins. In the most recent issues of Amazing Spider-man and FF both Spidey and Sue, respectively, left Reed staring speechlessly like a moron with fairly simple, uninspired anti-reg arguments. Heck, Reed even raised his fist against Sue because he couldn't think of anything reasonable to say. Now with the events of Hulk 100, it's getting to the point where it would almost be out-of-character for Reed to think of or articulate a rational reason for anything he's done or will do.

[Sean Whitmore]

There's a marked difference between that and just being mute while a guy rails at you about points he's not even getting the details of right, and your counter dialogue mostly involves saying how awesome he is as he points out how you couldn't think to do something for months on end, even before Civil War went full blown, that he thought to do in minutes.

Here's something you may not have considered:

Can you think of any good reason that Reed should have to defend himself to some punk criminal kid?

Reed doesn't strike me as the type to think, "Oh my god, I'm getting OWNED! I MUST argue back to this kid I don't know!"


SEAN

[Kevinroc]

Here's something you may not have considered:

Can you think of any good reason that Reed should have to defend himself to some punk criminal kid?

Reed doesn't strike me as the type to think, "Oh my god, I'm getting OWNED! I MUST argue back to this kid I don't know!"


SEAN

Reed didn't even defend himself when his wife gave him hell over his actions in Civil War. :p

[Sean Whitmore]

Reed didn't even defend himself when his wife gave him hell over his actions in Civil War. :p


Well, he probably should have, then. Wife in person trumps criminal stranger on the phone. :)


SEAN

[Pendaran]

Here's something you may not have considered:

Can you think of any good reason that Reed should have to defend himself to some punk criminal kid?

Reed doesn't strike me as the type to think, "Oh my god, I'm getting OWNED! I MUST argue back to this kid I don't know!"


SEAN

That's really not the way the dialogue, the art or any of it seemed to be especially making it look.

[Pendaran]

I guess you haven't been reading the Civil War Tie-ins. In the most recent issues of Amazing Spider-man and FF both Spidey and Sue, respectively, left Reed staring speechlessly like a moron with fairly simple, uninspired anti-reg arguments. Heck, Reed even raised his fist against Sue because he couldn't think of anything reasonable to say. Now with the events of Hulk 100, it's getting to the point where it would almost be out-of-character for Reed to think of or articulate a rational reason for anything he's done or will do.

So basically, some recent retcons of Reed are fine for Pak to use, Bendis' retcons of the general effects of Hulk rampages are fine for Pak to ignore, considering they aren't even in Reed's purloined files. I've already noted in a few posts of what my view is on that particular standard. The whole "the retcons are good when they make the Hulk look good, the retcons are bad and should be dismissed when they make the Hulk look bad."

[ivesaidway2much]

So basically, some recent retcons of Reed are fine for Pak to use, Bendis' retcons of the general effects of Hulk rampages are fine for Pak to ignore, considering they aren't even in Reed's purloined files. I've already noted in a few posts of what my view is on that particular standard. The whole "the retcons are good when they make the Hulk look good, the retcons are bad and should be dismissed when they make the Hulk look bad."
First, my last post was an apparently lame attempt at a joke. I was highlighting how one of the smartest people in the world is being written in every book as being unable to form even the most basic rationale for his actions. I guess I'll have to try harder next time.

Second, Bendis' alleged Hulk retcon doesn't just make the Hulk look bad it makes everyone. Hulk for killing people. Banner for taking a serial mass-murderer into populated areas regularly. And every hero from Reed and the FF down to the Punisher and Mastermind excello-whatever for aiding and abetting a pyschopathic homicidal maniac and insane criminal negligence to the point where they are all accessories in the deaths of thousands if not millions of individuals. But, other than that I love the retcon.

Third, at this point there's nothing to retcon as far as the Hulk is concerned. If your reread the Illuminati special, no one ever says explicitly that the Hulk killed anyone, ever.

[Zero Hunter]

Here's something you may not have considered:

Can you think of any good reason that Reed should have to defend himself to some punk criminal kid?

Reed doesn't strike me as the type to think, "Oh my god, I'm getting OWNED! I MUST argue back to this kid I don't know!"


SEAN

Maybe it is just starting to sink into Reeds head that he might not be doing the right thing. I mean he is getting told off and deserted by people he has worked with and know for years, and then to have someone he doens't even know telling him the same thing might be getting to him. I mean to hear the same thing over and over form all sorts of different people has to amke the man think.

[Pendaran]

First, my last post was an apparently lame attempt at a joke. I was highlighting how one of the smartest people in the world is being written in every book as being unable to form even the most basic rationale for his actions. I guess I'll have to try harder next time.

Second, Bendis' alleged Hulk retcon doesn't just make the Hulk look bad it makes everyone. Hulk for killing people. Banner for taking a serial mass-murderer into populated areas regularly. And every hero from Reed and the FF down to the Punisher and Mastermind excello-whatever for aiding and abetting a pyschopathic homicidal maniac and insane criminal negligence to the point where they are all accessories in the deaths of thousands if not millions of individuals. But, other than that I love the retcon.

Third, at this point there's nothing to retcon as far as the Hulk is concerned. If your reread the Illuminati special, no one ever says explicitly that the Hulk killed anyone, ever.

Iron Man: "Innocent people are dying because he walks the earth."

Reed's response is to state that basically forces of nature cause the death of the innocent all the time. That such is the natural order.

Namor's response to the Hulk's lack of control being brought up is not to mention "yeah, but here, here and here were the fault of someone messing with the Hulk!" but instead to just say that everyone, Iron Man included has lack of control issues.

And sure, fans of the Hulk might protest that it should have been mentioned that x, y, and z should have been noted as being from external factors, as it otherwise just makes the Hulk look bad, but hey, that sounds suspiciously like a similar complaint that Reed should have mentioned situations a,b and c, and correcting Cho on getting the details of d outright wrong when he starts getting railed on how the basis of his arguements are wrong, as it otherwise just makes Reed look bad.

So again, I continue to fail to see how this is about anything but deciding what writers and events should be ignored, changed, or not, in order to view characters like Reed and the Hulk how someone prefers to view them. It's part of why while I liked the main story in 100, I found the backup story fairly crappy, and not really reassuring if it's a glimpse into how WWH is going to look.

Oh, Earlier than that, Shield notes to Iron Man the death toll of his Vegas rampage, and both Iron Man and Hill acknowledge it off of "how many this time". It's fairly reaching to say the Hulk was never said in that issue to be noted as getting people killed.

Bendis himself, who wrote the Illuminati issue, has commented that he was referring to his pov that Hulk rampages kill people. You can't really keep saying "alleged" when the writer himself specifies. Unless your stance is "I don't care, that writer should be ignored".

If someone is looking at these comics, Pak, or whoever, and talking about how the Hulk has been legitimately wronged, or is legitimately this, or legitmately that, and how arguements to exile and oppose him are legitimately wrong, well, when they have to begin with "and so long as we ignore the following writers and comics..", that's not actually arguing that, as based in comics. Pak can certainly use Reed as a strawman to set up the examples he can easily dismiss or throw in Reed's face as needed to make him look bad, but that too isn't "an exploration of whether the Hulk is a man or a monster", that's cherry picking arguements in order to put forth one's point of view on a character, almost as basically an arguement with another writer's point of view on a character, as facilitated by one's personal creation. That's my point.

Cho, and I have to think Pak, since apparently the details aren't even in Reed's files, can't even get right to point out that his centerpiece example for how great the Hulk is and how guys like Black Bolt betrayed him after giving him flowers, was something /Bruce Banner did while in control of the Hulk/. Reed is /so/ autistic that he can't even get out a simple "er, you're getting that wrong" to some random kid that isn't, by comparison, his wife, or a major figure of the hero community?

Nevermind that Reed's files could have easily contained a wide variety of examples of legitmately bad crap the Hulk has done, cases where he actually has killed people, or only been stopped by external events or actions of others, but when Reed is making his angry arguement, he can only think to point Cho, somehow, to the most easily dismissed of them.

And again, neverminding that a kid with old equipment and protocols is punking Reed in his lab, while Reed talks about his awesomeness. It takes "Reed is being written like crap" to new heights.

[ivesaidway2much]

Iron Man: "Innocent people are dying because he walks the earth."
The Hulk has been caught in numerous gamma explosions, where innocent civilians have been killed. He's been targeted by countless villains simply because he is the strongest one there is. So , yes, Iron Man is right "innocent people are dying because [the Hulk] walks the earth." But once again I reiterate, that nowhere in the Illuminati special does it explicitily state that the Hulk has killed anyone, ever. If Bendis had wanted to convey the idea that the Hulk killed people, it would have been fairly easy. He could have just had Iron man say "the Hulk has killed [insert number here] innocent people."

Oh, Earlier than that, Shield notes to Iron Man the death toll of his Vegas rampage, and both Iron Man and Hill acknowledge it off of "how many this time". It's fairly reaching to say the Hulk was never said in that issue to be noted as getting people killed.Hill made no mention of a death toll in the Hulk's Vegas rampage. Iron man asks "how many this time", and Hill responds "26. Two kids and a dog." That could be anything from injuries to deaths as a result of the gamma bomb explosion. And since as far as I know there are no incontinuity killing of innocents attributed to the Hulk, "how many this time" wouldn't make sense in that context. Once again, it would have been pretty easy for Bendis to clarify that the Hulk is a killer by simply having Iron man ask, "how many people did the Hulk kill this time?" So since it's a fairly important plot point, until someone in story actually says the Hulk kills innocent people, I'm just going to assume he doesn't.

And again, neverminding that a kid with old equipment and protocols is punking Reed in his lab, while Reed talks about his awesomeness. It takes "Reed is being written like crap" to new heights. Reed has been written like crap in a bunch of Civil War titles. Sure, Pak may have pushed it a little, but I can't really fault him for trying to stick to the continuity already established by Millar and JMS.

[Pendaran]

Reed has been written like crap in a bunch of Civil War titles. Sure, Pak may have pushed it a little, but I can't really fault him for trying to stick to the continuity already established by Millar and JMS.

We clearly have different definitions of "a little". And again, thanks for confirming that your arguement is indeed "the Reed retcons are fine, they make the Hulk look good. The Hulk retcons are bad, they make the Hulk look bad."

The Hulk has been caught in numerous gamma explosions, where innocent civilians have been killed. He's been targeted by countless villains simply because he is the strongest one there is. So , yes, Iron Man is right "innocent people are dying because [the Hulk] walks the earth." But once again I reiterate, that nowhere in the Illuminati special does it explicitily state that the Hulk has killed anyone, ever. If Bendis had wanted to convey the idea that the Hulk killed people, it would have been fairly easy. He could have just had Iron man say "the Hulk has killed [insert number here] innocent people."


This is an impressive level of reaching and ignoring of pretty blatant context when Bendis frames it with things like Maria Hill's speech about the heroes doing nothing about the Hulk being to her like Spiderman doing nothing about Norman Osborn, despite his killing people. If you want to ignore Bendis' stated intent and the extremely blatant context he provides, hey, that's up to you. And that Reed's /in issue/ arguement that the Hulk's causing deaths is part of the natural order. I can't picture how you can reconcile him responding to Tony's line about innocent people dying to start talking about the natural order of things with "it never actually says", but apparently, that's the basis of your entire stance here.



Hill made no mention of a death toll in the Hulk's Vegas rampage. Iron man asks "how many this time", and Hill responds "26. Two kids and a dog." That could be anything from injuries to deaths as a result of the gamma bomb explosion. And since as far as I know there are no incontinuity killing of innocents attributed to the Hulk, "how many this time" wouldn't make sense in that context. Once again, it would have been pretty easy for Bendis to clarify that the Hulk is a killer by simply having Iron man ask, "how many people did the Hulk kill this time?" So since it's a fairly important plot point, until someone in story actually says the Hulk kills innocent people, I'm just going to assume he doesn't.

You're certainly free to warp out of context things you don't like if they make the Hulk look bad. Can you honestly give a response that doesn't amount to reaching as to why the conversations would be about people dying, if they weren't actually referring to people dying? The best you can really do is "in a technical sense, it never actually says.."? Even the guy in this and many other threads that most vigorously argues for the Hulk and the writing he recieves acknowledges Bendis has said simply what he was portraying there. So, if you want to argue "I don't care what the person who wrote the comic meant", you can, but that's not really making any kind of statement that has anything to do with the actual meaning and context of the comic.

Really, to use your own tack here "innocent people are dying because the Hulk walks the earth" is not saying "innocent people are dying because people throw bombs at the Hulk while he walks the earth", so the basis your arguement has?

As for the Hulk, deaths, and continuity, it is as old as the Peter David run on the Hulk that he established things like the rampages of the mindless, Bannerless Hulk as having left bystander death in its wake. In Hulk 400 David has the Professor Hulk get angry and go on a rampage, causing an explosion with at least one confirmed innocent death that the Hulk himself breaks down and weeps over, acknowledging that he caused it, and disrupts Marlo's ressurection, leaving her a brain dead vegetable, so, this statement:

So since it's a fairly important plot point, until someone in story actually says the Hulk kills innocent people, I'm just going to assume he doesn't

And this one:

And since as far as I know there are no incontinuity killing of innocents attributed to the Hulk, "how many this time" wouldn't make sense in that context

Don't really have any bearing. Neverminding that they continue to amount to "reed retcon good! Hulk retcon bad and must be reached for to ignore in any way possible"

[Sean Whitmore]

And again, thanks for confirming that your arguement is indeed "the Reed retcons are fine, they make the Hulk look good. The Hulk retcons are bad, they make the Hulk look bad."


You keep saying this. I keep having no idea what it's supposed to mean.


SEAN

[Pendaran]

That various people bring up that Reed looking bad in multiple ways, from intellectually, to morally, to being unable to string together any kind of arguement, in the backup story is just fine, because it's in line with the recently altered personality, competence and overall portrayal of Reed in things like Civil War. That by contrast, Bendis' take on the Hulk in Illuminati, as something not even especially addressed in any meaningful way in the backup story, is fine to ignore for reasons ranging so far from "it makes everyone look bad" to "Gregg Pak has more authority to state what's so about the Hulk and Reed as related than Bendis does." One of the statements made was literally:

As the writer of Hulk, Pak has more say on The Hulk's status as a murderer or not over Bendis. Hulk isn't involved in Civil War (his thrashing Vegas was mentioned in passing in CW #1 and the only Hulk reference I can think of in the New Avengers title was Sentry imagining himself and Hulk stopping the Civil War). So your point is about Hulk in the Illuminati one-shot.

Which isn't really anything but being selective about portrayals and recent writing. Which, if that's the arguement put forward, fine, but invariably cloaking it in it being something about the Hulk or Reed's character, history and motivations doesn't really take then.

[Sean Whitmore]

I see. You're misusing the term retcon a little, though. Reed hasn't been retconned in any way, shape, or form recently (unless you count his newly-discovered uncle). He's just being written recently as a very weary, work-obsessed guy. People can like it or not like it or whatever; that's how he's been acting recently.

And I'm not aware of anything from the Illuminati special (I assume you're referring to the Hulk having killed people) as having been retconned either.


SEAN

[Pendaran]

I see. You're misusing the term retcon a little, though. Reed hasn't been retconned in any way, shape, or form recently (unless you count his newly-discovered uncle). He's just being written recently as a very weary, work-obsessed guy. People can like it or not like it or whatever; that's how he's been acting recently.

And I'm not aware of anything from the Illuminati special (I assume you're referring to the Hulk having killed people) as having been retconned either.


SEAN

The general, or at least prevalent with some, view has been that Bendis' take on the Hulk's rampages making people die, is a retcon. Similarly, Reed's stuff like his newly discovered Uncle, as combined with tying it to his believing that his Uncle deserved what he got, despite, for example, Reed's repeated stands against and defiance of the government, stands as that as well.

I could instead refer to such as Reed being written with a personality and level of competence lately, that does not particularly match his personality and level of competence in comics previously, if you prefer.

Either way it remains that it's an arguement that goes, as far as the reasonablility or lack thereof in the backup story "this bit of writing should be accepted, this bit of writing should be ignored and not addressed."

[Sean Whitmore]

Okay, then I'm confused about what you mean by "accepting".

Why do you think anyone has a choice but to accept the way Reed is currently being written? That's the way he's being written. We have no control over that. People can complain about it (and do, a LOT, as evident from spending ten seconds on the Civil War boards), but that's the way it is. I'd prefer not to accept that Batgirl is a villain now, but she is, so I'm crap outta luck.

Same with the Hulk. As far as I know, the last we've heard is that he's killed. People can accept it or not accept it, but there it is. If Greg Pak ever turns around and says "No, the Hulk never has killed," well, then, that's what's canon.

If people like or dislike certain retcons more than others, then not to be offensive, but what do you care?


SEAN

[Pendaran]

Okay, then I'm confused about what you mean by "accepting".

Why do you think anyone has a choice but to accept the way Reed is currently being written? That's the way he's being written. We have no control over that. People can complain about it (and do, a LOT, as evident from spending ten seconds on the Civil War boards), but that's the way it is. I'd prefer not to accept that Batgirl is a villain now, but she is, so I'm crap outta luck.

Same with the Hulk. As far as I know, the last we've heard is that he's killed. People can accept it or not accept it, but there it is. If Greg Pak ever turns around and says "No, the Hulk never has killed," well, then, that's what's canon.

If people like or dislike certain retcons more than others, then not to be offensive, but what do you care?


SEAN

My original point on why I disliked the backstory involved things like saying that it read like Pak basically using Reed as a strawman to easily pick apart the rationale for exiling the Hulk, referring only to situations involving external influence thereon, and not even touching any other incidents in which the Hulk did some fairly horrible things, actually got people killed, or even addressing things like Bendis' take on the Hulk. That it basically just read like cherry picking in order to take shots at it, and Reed being a dumbass to facilitate that.

The counterarguements I got were "but Reed now /is/ a dumbass!", to which I would note sure, but then, the Hulk is also a guy who gets people killed, but Pak is basically ignoring that being established, to set up the Illuminati's rationale as being easily dismissed based on the aforementioned cherry picking.


It tends to be supported by when I can quote someone's arguement for why Greg Pak shouldn't even have to vaguely refer to things like Bendis' retcon as being this:

As the writer of Hulk, Pak has more say on The Hulk's status as a murderer or not over Bendis.

Why it bothers me? Because people have gone on and on at length, from other marvel writers, to posters on this thread, about how the Hulk legitimately been done him wrong, the Illuminati legitimately have no basis to do anything against the Hulk, and how rife with badness they are, and rife with justification the Hulk is, and the indepth exploration of the Hulk as hero or monster. And then their arguement becomes, quite literally "and this is all true, so long as you only focus on this, this and this, and ignore this, this and this, and Pak shouldn't even have to bring it up."

Saying that Pak's use of Reed as some incompetent strawman to shoot down stances against the Hulk is just fine, (when the guy can't even get right the details of the main Hulk good deed he champions, and thus Reed can't even think to point that out) because it's in line with some current versions of Reed, but then saying that by the same token, Pak shouldn't have to address current versions of the Hulk, is basically a double standard that has no basis beyond what makes the Hulk look good or bad. And it makes it sort of impossible to discuss the Hulk hero/monster thing, or the motivations of Reed and co, if the discussion at some point reaches "I'm ignoring this because it makes the Hulk look bad. I'm saying this is cool because it makes the Hulk look good."

[Sean Whitmore]

I dunno, I'm not gonna change your mind about anything, but it really looks like you're just searching for reasons to be mad. I offer just a couple of things to ponder:

-It really shouldn't surprise you that the comic book The Incredible Hulk is going to be more or less pro-Hulk. :)

-The opinions you ascribe to Pak belong to Cho. Not every character speaks for the author.

-Pak has not retconned away anything from Bendis or Illuminati. Not mentioning it is not even close to the same thing.

-That said, if he did decide to retcon it, it would be well within his right as the guy who has to write the book month in and month out.

-The Illuminati's argument hardly has to be made. It's a given. It's universally understood that the Hulk is a dangerous rampaging monster. The side that NEEDS to make an argument to support their point is the Hulk's.


SEAN

[DoctorDoom]

Awesome stuff but hey....No reprint of Incredible Hulk 300 :( What happened to that?

(of course I'll settle for the Trial of the Hulk reprints)

[Sean Whitmore]

Awesome stuff but hey....No reprint of Incredible Hulk 300 :( What happened to that?

(of course I'll settle for the Trial of the Hulk reprints)


Heh. Those reprints make the court scenes in She-Hulk and Manhunter look like actual Supreme Court transcripts. :)


SEAN

[DoctorDoom]

Heh. Those reprints make the court scenes in She-Hulk and Manhunter look like actual Supreme Court transcripts. :)


SEAN
But seriously what happened to the solicited reprint of Hulk 300?

[CMBMOOL]

But seriously what happened to the solicited reprint of Hulk 300?

I heard it wasn't included in the issue, but what was included is the two part Storyline "The trial of the Incredible Hulk" from issues #'s 153 and 152.:o

[CMBMOOL]

* Bump!!! *

[DoctorDoom]

I heard it wasn't included in the issue, but what was included is the two part Storyline "The trial of the Incredible Hulk" from issues #'s 153 and 152.:o
Yeah I know...it was a good read but I was more looking forward to the harder to find Hulk 300.... I'm not complaining mind you, just wondering what happened.

[Hulk Strongest One]

I remember reading Mastermind Excello and liking the character in Amazing Fantasy. That said, who the hell is he to taunt Reed "I have a four digit IQ" Richards? Stupid whippersnappers, showing no respect for their older and smarter scientists.

All jokes aside, and not having read the issue yet, I hope this doesn't portray somebody actually outsmarting Reed in order to get the information.

No, there were some interesting exchanges, though. At one point, the kid cracks some secret code or something, noting that "Reed couldn't do it", and Reed immediately responds with "maybe I never tried."

[Hulk Strongest One]

and Reed's apparently doltish to the point where he hasn't even been checking his own probes to make sure exiling the Hulk went off,

Reminds me of the Federation never bothering to check up on Kahn on Ceti Alpha 6.

And paying so little attention they didn't recognize some massive event that shifted the orbits of several planets.

[Sean Whitmore]

Reminds me of the Federation never bothering to check up on Kahn on Ceti Alpha 6.

And paying so little attention they didn't recognize some massive event that shifted the orbits of several planets.

Let's face it, if everyone in fiction did their jobs competently all the time, there'd barely be any stories left to tell.


SEAN

[stormkid]

Is it me or does the hulk appear more chubby in this storylike?

[Sean Whitmore]

Is it me or does the hulk appear more chubby in this storylike?

Hulk like pie. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=150288&highlight=disgusting)


SEAN