Morisson, Explains Batman and Son

[Mia]

There's a small interview with Morisson in the latest issue of Wizard

From the gist of the interview I got the following. Yes Damien is Bruce's own flesh and blood. He also says that he is interested in stories of how f*ck ups (yes his words) grow up to redeem themselves later on. So I guess if Morisson has his druthers Damien the demon will grow up to be a hero. Little Damien is supposed to be angry and confused. But now that he is with his very cool Dad (Batman) he will grow up to be a fine upstanding citizen.


And for those of us who were puzzled by the incongruity of events that took place between SOD and what's in Morisson's work.Morisson admits that he went by his memmories of SOD, he did not follow it when he was writing.
He claims that Superboy's 'retcon' punch has saved his ass.

[the goddamn batman]

He claims that Superboy's 'retcon' punch has saved his ass.

oh, good. Well, I'm far less interested now.

[Constantine Drakon]

This moves Morisson down multiple notches on my respect pole. Damn. I thought the Damian story had some thought put into it. Instead he's got a high idea and is shoving it in there without giving much scrutiny to the characters' history. That's weak. That's Infinite Crisis weak. If he can't remember that Talia and Bruce love each other and just wants her to be a rapist... I don't know what to say.

[The Shadow]

He claims that Superboy's 'retcon' punch has saved his ass.
Thanks DC... for the LAMEST out in comics history!

Now instead of being accountable, all a writer has to yell is "RETCON PUNCH!" and everything's forgiven, explained away and forgotten.

Everything except that DAMN retcon punch. :mad:

[Joe Acro]

How would a retcon punch fix something that happened within the continuity of New Earth?

[The Shadow]

How would a retcon punch fix something that happened within the continuity of New Earth?
It takes the OLD story that Morrison changed to fit HIS story and makes the old story compatable with the new story.

Damn retcon punch.

[Joe Rice]

Christ, or you could just worry if it's a good story or not period. I'm not saying it is yet, but worrying about other stories is pretty stupid.

[Damo]

ARGH. Morrison, WTF? You had me at Ninja Man Bats. You lost me at Retcon Punch.

Christ, or you could just worry if it's a good story or not period. I'm not saying it is yet, but worrying about other stories is pretty stupid.

Except that a big part of why it's not a good story, to me, so far, is because of those other stories. These characters don't exist in a vacuum. Basically he's ignoring all previous Talia appearances and making her someone that would rape Batman, from what we've seen so far. So yeah, I'm going to look at other stories, specifically the ones where those two are in love and would never hurt one another if they could help it, then I'm going to look at this one with her being the psycho hose beast from hell for no reason and I'm going to have a small aneurism.

(just a teeny tiny one, because it's only a comic book).

[PaulTiberius]

Hmm. Maybe somebody better explain first just what continuity inconsistencies we're talking about between Son of the Demon and Morrison's latest??

[the goddamn batman]

rape Batman

the simple fact that these two words are in the same sentence is enough for me to not enjoy this run.

Rape. Batman. There is no context that makes this ok.

[Brian Cronin]

Hmm. Maybe somebody better explain first just what continuity inconsistencies we're talking about between Son of the Demon and Morrison's latest??

Morrison thought that Talia drugged Batman to have sex with her (hence the rape thing), when in reality, the sex was consensual, so in the recap in the recent Batman, Morrison referred to it as Talia drugging Batman.

-Brian

[IamtheRock3]

Actully like the story

Promblem I have is I am pretty sure at only 4 issues, That Damien will turn out not be his son

thus kind of takes away the impact

or accept continity glitches. But it always a better story if batman actully truly loved her and one time. And at one time she was good. Add more impact when she does bad

Also her hiding the son from BOTH bruce and Ra Al Ghul, and giving the kid to loving parents was an interesting move that could be followed up on

What changed her and stuff could of been interesting.

[Tadhg]

He admitted he screwed up, and jokingly referred to the retcon punch. What more do you want? Is he to commit suicide at the altar of fandom to appease you?

Obviously he should of read the Son of the Bat before writing this, and yes this likely means that Batman doesn't mean as much to him as it does to you; but did you expect it to? Very few writers are as in love with the characters as the fans, and usually the writers that ARE in love as much as the fans write mediocre to poor stories.

What I find interesting is that He also says that he is interested in stories of how f*ck ups (yes his words) grow up to redeem themselves later on. could apply to the story itself due to this fuck up. Personally, I'm going to see how the story grows.

[Damo]

He admitted he screwed up, and jokingly referred to the retcon punch. What more do you want? Is he to commit suicide at the altar of fandom to appease you?

Tempting... but I'll settle for Talia being written in character, as oppossed to being a hateful shrew, and an explanation that no, she didn't rape Batman (yea gods g'damn is right, those words should never be put together). If he can do that, all is (more or less) forgiven.

This isn't "oops, I forgot how the Spook and Batman met" this is "oops, I forgot that Talia isn't a rapist". Kinda a big boo boo to make.

[Tadhg]

It really is a dumb mistake, but he didn't try to turn her into a rapist. He thought he was following the "rules." You don't like the story; it's likely not going to change. You can either see where the story goes or not. But, and I could be reading too much into this, these posts seem like a total overreaction.

[Damo]

It really is a dumb mistake, but he didn't try to turn her into a rapist.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Drugging someone to have sex with them is rape. If you mean he wasn't trying to turn her into a rapist because he thought she already was... maybe that's correct, but that's a massive mistake and piss poor research by any standards. Again, this isn't a minor thing he's forgetting. Talia and Bruce were completely in love, it was the entire point of her character. This really is akin to having Joker show up and having Batman be chummy with him. You could not get her character more wrong. I don't agree with using the Retcon Punch to get away with bad research, but I'm not going to make a big thing out of it every time. But using it to get away with completely writing a major character ass backwards, that's something else entirely and should be denounced.

O'Neil, who created Talia and Ra's, pretty much summed up her relationship with Batman by saying if he ever got a chance to write a "Batman's last mission" story it would end with him and Talia going off to live together, in love. Again, the entire point of her character, and the exact opposite of how she's being written here.

[Azrael52]

The man messed up, admitted it, and moved on. I'm thankful that people in my life don't hold me to the high standards that a few of you are holding him to. Give the man some wriggle room, you know?

[Tadhg]

I see that there's never going to be give or take in this discussion since you're more emotionally invested in these characters than I am and you won't let mistakes or editorial decisions change your feelings.

[Kid Omega]

I read it as if he was drugged, but not taken advantage of... she just made him drop his inhibitions and seduced him. Sexy!

She seems pretty 'in character" to me. just a hardened, more bitter version of the talia he filled with bat-seed. Works for me.

[Kid Omega]

O'Neil, who created Talia and Ra's, pretty much summed up her relationship with Batman by saying if he ever got a chance to write a "Batman's last mission" story it would end with him and Talia going off to live together, in love. Again, the entire point of her character, and the exact opposite of how she's being written here.

You know, denny o'Neil's version of that character stopped being relevant the minute he stopped writing her. What he thought should happen, as wonderful as he was, is meaningless when another writer moves her in another direction.

[Damo]

I see that there's never going to be give or take in this discussion since you're more emotionally invested in these characters than I am and you won't let mistakes or editorial decisions change your feelings.

Not really, no. Like I said, there's "I messed up" and there's "I wrote Batman being friends with The Joker". *Shrugs.* If he does see his mistake and tries to fix it, yeah, I can forgive that. I consider that a reasonable amount of giving him "wiggle room". I don't see it as reasonable to ignore him writing a major character about as much out of character as is possible. I'm all for cutting someone some slack, but this is a gigantic change in a major character that you're suggesting a turn a blind eye to.

[Kid Omega]

Not really, no. Like I said, there's "I messed up" and there's "I wrote Batman being friends with The Joker". *Shrugs.* If he does see his mistake and tries to fix it, yeah, I can forgive that. I consider that a reasonable amount of giving him "wiggle room". I don't see it as reasonable to ignore him writing a major character about as much out of character as is possible. I'm all for cutting someone some slack, but this is a gigantic change in a major character that you're suggesting a turn a blind eye to.

Since when is Talia al Ghul a "Major Character"?

[Damo]

You know, denny o'Neil's version of that character stopped being relevant the minute he stopped writing her. What he thought should happen, as wonderful as he was, is meaningless when another writer moves her in another direction.

I disagree. But, just like with the use of the Retcon Punch to get away with continuity mistakes, I can disagree but understand why someone would take things in a new direction. Retconning old stories specifically to turn a character into the exact opposite of what was intended, however, is something I cannot respect. Sorry.

[Tadhg]

I disagree. But, just like with the use of the Retcon Punch to get away with continuity mistakes, I can disagree but understand why someone would take things in a new direction. Retconning old stories specifically to turn a character into the exact opposite of what was intended, however, is something I cannot respect. Sorry.

Except you're continuing to ascribe intent where there was none.

[Brian Cronin]

Except you're continuing to ascribe intent where there was none.

Where, in fact, the claim is that there specifically was NO intent.

-Brian

[Kid Omega]

I disagree. But, just like with the use of the Retcon Punch to get away with continuity mistakes, I can disagree but understand why someone would take things in a new direction. Retconning old stories specifically to turn a character into the exact opposite of what was intended, however, is something I cannot respect. Sorry.

The opposite of what was intended by another writer. O'Neil's intentions for the character are a moot point. As long as what's happening is a well-written, ripping yarn, we, as readers, can roll with it.

[The Shadow]

usually the writers that ARE in love as much as the fans write mediocre to poor stories.
Disproval of theory time.

Exibit A - Kurt Busiek
Exibit B - Geoff Johns
Exibit C - Roy Thomas
Exibit D - Mark Waid
Exibit E - Ed Brubaker

[Brian Cronin]

Disproval of theory time.

Exibit A - Kurt Busiek
Exibit B - Geoff Johns
Exibit C - Roy Thomas
Exibit D - Mark Waid
Exibit E - Ed Brubaker

Ed Brubaker is in love with the characters?

Ed Brubaker?!?

Let's give you a mulligan on that one, and go with the other four.

Busiek, Johns, Thomas and Waid.

I'll give you Johns and Thomas (as I don't think Busiek or Waid are in love with the characters).

And neither of them is as good as Morrison, Moore, Ellis, Gaiman, Ennis etc., writers noted for the fact that they specifically are NOT "in love" with the characters.

In fact, I believe it was Ellis who pointed out that one of the strengths of British writers is that they AREN'T in love with the characters like some American writers are.

-Brian

[IamtheRock3]

It really is a dumb mistake, but he didn't try to turn her into a rapist. He thought he was following the "rules." You don't like the story; it's likely not going to change. You can either see where the story goes or not. But, and I could be reading too much into this, these posts seem like a total overreaction.


To fair message board tend to be about disccusing or Critique the story. If not it be like "Well did you read batman issue"
"Yup"
"Well nothing more to say here"

So let go with the theory that critqueing the story is at least a small part of messageboards. As Critques go..THATS a pretty fair one.


Morrison a Good writer. I myself not wishing him harm. Just that a bad story point

Really making her a Rapist (sorry druging a guy, and doing him is rape), to me lessn the connection of her batman

It be better if they were in love, did have a real connection ounce, and maybe she was good at the time.

Them hating each other now would have a little more impact

Also Giving the son away to caring parents was one of her signs of doing something good. Seeing her twisted, and ruing one of her few good deeds, would make for a better story


Not just a mistake..but least to me a bad story decesion

Granted I am not a writer. But hey not a movie, director, or script writers..but can still tell the Pootitang probally not an oscar worthy movie

But incidents using my judgment as an audeince member

[Tadhg]

Ed Brubaker is in love with the characters?

Ed Brubaker?!?

Let's give you a mulligan on that one, and go with the other four.

Busiek, Johns, Thomas and Waid.

I'll give you Johns and Thomas.

And neither of them is as good as Morrison, Moore, Ellis, Gaiman, Ennis etc., writers noted for the fact that they specifically are NOT "in love" with the characters.

In fact, I believe it was Ellis who pointed out that one of the strengths of British writers is that they AREN'T in love with the characters like some American writers are.

-Brian

I'll maybe concede Thomas, but his work on characters that he's not in love with far outshines the work where he's too emotionally attached to the characters. Johns is the first person who came into my mind when typing that. Rebirth is the perfect example as to why fans shouldn't write comics. It's a terrible story that's only purpose is to appease the fans that felt slighted over a character's treatment. It jumps through so many hoops "to make everything fit."

[Tadhg]

To fair message board tend to be about disccusing or Critique the story. If not it be like "Well did you read batman issue"
"Yup"
"Well nothing more to say here"

I never said that there shouldn't be discussion, but to be quite frank the amount of emotional investment certain people seem to be putting into fictional characters creeps me out on several levels.


Really making her a Rapist (sorry druging a guy, and doing him is rape), to me lessn the connection of her batman

The point is, he didn't intend to MAKE her anything, he thought she already was. I never said anything about whether it was or was not rape, just that he simply thought the story was already this way.

[Brian Cronin]

Morrison a Good writer. I myself not wishing him harm. Just that a bad story point

The idea that you have to point out that you don't wish a writer HARM for his story is a sad indictment on how emotional some folks take these characters.

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

I'll maybe concede Thomas, but his work on characters that he's not in love with far outshines the work where he's too emotionally attached to the characters. Johns is the first person who came into my mind when typing that. Rebirth is the perfect example as to why fans shouldn't write comics. It's a terrible story that's only purpose is to appease the fans that felt slighted over a character's treatment. It jumps through so many hoops "to make everything fit."

You misread me.

I was "giving him" Johns and Thomas as examples of good writers who are in love with the characters as much as the fans.

And neither of those two are as good as the writers who AREN'T.

-Brian

[IamtheRock3]

I never said that there shouldn't be discussion, but to be quite frank the amount of emotional investment certain people seem to be putting into fictional characters creeps me out on several levels.



The point is, he didn't intend to MAKE her anything, he thought she already was. I never said anything about whether it was or was not rape, just that he simply thought the story was already this way.


Emotional investment

none of us threanten to Quit DC, or KILL morrison children


We said it was a sucky move. Hell me myself still like the story as a whole at the end of the day. But that makes it lose a few points

It be like if Roper review a movie

Ropert- DANG that sucked. They totaly didnt get the charcter write. This sequel was TERRIBLE. THUMBS DOWN

Ebert- Come now. Sure. He turn Ripley the hero from Aliens, into a Baby eating manica..but it not like he did it on purpose. Granted he doing another sequel where he doesnt change it. But MISTAKES HAPPEN

Ropert- Oh it was a mistakes..well in that case THUMBS up then


They wouldnt do that

Why should we do it here

[IamtheRock3]

The idea that you have to point out that you don't wish a writer HARM for his story is a sad indictment on how emotional some folks take these characters.

-Brian


The idea simply saying a story critique a person..is making to much of emmotila investiment..is sad also


Here an Example


Poster 1- I think that story sucks

Poster 2- I think your wrong. I disagree with your reason and here why

Poster 1- Ok

Poster 2- Arent you going to make a rebuttal

Poster- naaaaaaa

Poster 2- Why not

Poster 1- To much of an emotial investment

Poster 2- DARN was going to have a rebuttal for your rebuttal

Poster 1- That my friend sound like your making an emotinal investment of your own my friend

Poster- And there in lays the PARADOX

poster 2- Why most of these topics dont last more then 1 page

Poster 1- That cause any discussion that goes pass...a page or give actully details or why one didnt like it, comes DANGEROUSly close to making an emmotila investment. And that my friend a risk I an not willing to take

[meethraa]

I'm starting to like the story after the 3rd issue, but you have to admit that it's flat-out bizarre that he wouldn't bother rereading the comic that he's basically writing a sequel to, and if he wasn't Grant Morrison there would probably be no one defending him on this.

That said, and considering DC's recent trend of implied sexual violence in their stories, can't say I'm shocked by the continuity change.
Can't say I care either.

So, either Identity Crisis served its purpose of desensitizing readers to this trend, or the way non-consensual sex is used in this story is really not that different than how it's always been used in mainstream Marvel and DC.
I'm leaning towards the later, personally.

[IamtheRock3]

heck to me..surprise his memories could even read the story as that way

the romance...key word ROMANCE..was a HUGE part of the story

so how he read this..

"Oh my beloved we are one"

"yes we are one, You have seen the true man behind the cowl"

and rember it as this...

"Hahahaha ounce he passed out then I bang him bwwwwahhahahahahaha. And rob him of his bat seed"



Reason why it a big critue

Cause that now changes the tone of the story and direction of this story. While mistake has passed. Not sure the new Tone and direction of the charcter is a good one. I will read it. I trust morrioson enough to give him a change..but think the orginaly tone would of made a more compelling story.

But morrison got more hits then misses. But sometime he does in fact miss. But the idea of the son and still interesting and he has some interesting ideas that still in this story.

And personly feel it not an out there thing to say that.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I'm starting to like the story after the 3rd issue, but you have to admit that it's flat-out bizarre that he wouldn't bother rereading the comic that he's basically writing a sequel to, and if he wasn't Grant Morrison there would probably be no one defending him on this.

Yeah, that is bizarre. Or if his memories were fuzzy, wouldn't he ask the editor to make sure it seemed right?

So, either Identity Crisis served its purpose of desensitizing readers to this trend, or the way non-consensual sex is used in this story is really not that different than how it's always been used in mainstream Marvel and DC.
I'm leaning towards the later, personally.

At the very least, we can just chalk this up to how Batman remembers his encounter with Talia. He's being emotionally distant and implying he wouldn't sleep with her of his own free will, even though he actually did.

[Punch]

What's a Superboy retcon punch?

And this isn't really that big of a deal, but it's surprisingly sloppy and lazy for Morrison. I mean come on, he couldn't be bothered to read one book that his comic deals with directly?
I don't really like the story anyway, I think it's one of Morrison's worst.

[jetter_cheeze]

Seeing that we wouldn't know Morrison made a mistake like that without the interview, i could care less about it. Did anyone think that the retcon punch comment by him might have been a joke, or did you really need to see a smiling emoticon after the comment?

If there was something wrong factually with the story, why didn't an editor catch it? Not saying Morrison isn't guilty of wrong doing, but he did admit he read the story, the details were just a little hazy. He's writing what, 3-4 books a month? He needs an editor to help catch his mistakes.

[the goddamn batman]

ehh, I think the retcon comment was a joke. Grant's (http://www.wackyjac.com/boudoir/gallery/gallery.html) a funny guy after all.;)


but, not reading the story you brought back into continuity, and a reprint, and a bunch of press saying, "this is connected with this book" is just lazy. I'm sorry. Not a continuity nut, but that's pretty bad.

[The Shadow]

Ed Brubaker is in love with the characters?

Ed Brubaker?!?

Let's give you a mulligan on that one, and go with the other four.
LOL

I wasn't JUST referring to his DC work.

His Marvel stuff on Captain America (whom he has said is his favorite character and his dream to write) springs to mind ;)

And neither of them is as good as Morrison, Moore, Ellis, Gaiman, Ennis etc.,
The Neal Gaiman that wrote Sandman I would agree with. The Neil Gaiman that wrote 1602... not so much.

Ellis is either a HUGE hit or HUGE miss.

Morrison... I think with him it depends on the drugs/alchohol.

Moore is a comic god.
Even his lamest stuff is leagues ahead of what most writers do on their best days.

[The Shadow]

Johns is the first person who came into my mind when typing that. Rebirth is the perfect example as to why fans shouldn't write comics.
Yet he's also the guy whos passion for comics got something like Stars and STRIPE published.

Busiek did Avengers Forever for the fans as a fan... and it's often lauded as a masterpiece.

[The Shadow]

I'm starting to like the story after the 3rd issue, but you have to admit that it's flat-out bizarre that he wouldn't bother rereading the comic that he's basically writing a sequel to, and if he wasn't Grant Morrison there would probably be no one defending him on this.
Nicely put on both counts.

[carabas]

Has it actually been unambiguously stated anywhere that Talia drugged and raped Batman?
She gave her version of what happened, and Batman gave his.
Neither of them are likely to be 100% truthful. In this sort of thing I think I'll take Talia's word over Batman's, who after all is emotianally seriously conflicted when it comes to Talia.

Plus, in the original story, she did deceive him rather cruelly by faking a miscariage. She's not as holy as the nostalgiacs here claim.

[Fish Sauce]

I said this in another thread, but it happened to be the last post in it. I really have to say it again after reading this thread.

As a brand new reader of Batman comics, starting with Morrison's issue 655, I read the "raping" scene as Batman's own interpretation of events, and a misled one at that. That is to say, with no knowledge of Batman and Son, or any other Batman comic besides DKR for that matter, I saw it as consensual, with Batman trying to rid himself of the memory.

[Sean Whitmore]

It's funny, I can see exactly where both sides are coming from.

On the one hand, it's a pretty huge "oops" for both Morrison and his editors to make. And like someone said, all it would have taken was reareading one book for reference. Just one.

On the other hand, I just don't give that big a crap about Talia. At all. I know others do, and this is a tough nut for them to get over. I'm liking the story, and if Talia being a rapist is the price, I'll pay it.


SEAN

[garin]

On the other hand, I just don't give that big a crap about Talia. At all. I know others do, and this is a tough nut for them to get over. I'm liking the story, and if Talia being a rapist is the price, I'll pay it.How do you feel about Batman being a rape victim? I'm a bit bemused that the editors would allow that in mainstream continuity.

[Sean Whitmore]

How do you feel about Batman being a rape victim? I'm a bit bemused that the editors would allow that in mainstream continuity.

Ambivalent. But comforted by the notion that it isn't something that just recently happened, so we won't be seeing Bruce crying on his bed thinking, "I feel so violated." For all intents and purposes, it's no different than all the times she's tried to kill him.


SEAN

[Joe Rice]

Count me as another guy who didn't see it as rape or as a completely-accurate memory. Also as someone who's not emotionally invested in supporting characters enough to blow a gasket about this.

[Joe Rice]

And compare the supposed "masterworks" of the Character-Lovers vs. the Character-Ambivalents:

Does Avengers Forever REALLY hold up against Seven Soldiers, Flex Mentallo, Doom Patrol . . .StormWatch, Moore's Super-work . . .really? No, of course not. It's nowhere near that level.

[boolean]

How do you feel about Batman being a rape victim? I'm a bit bemused that the editors would allow that in mainstream continuity.

Bruce and Dick should start a support group.

[Sean Whitmore]

Bruce and Dick should start a support group.

I think about how many comic characters could potentially join that group, and I despair.


SEAN

[PastePotPete]

I never said that there shouldn't be discussion, but to be quite frank the amount of emotional investment certain people seem to be putting into fictional characters creeps me out on several levels.


I've been saying this ever since I got on these CBR boards.

Continuity is an illusion, people! The Batman of 1960 and the Batman of 1980 are completely different people! Their goals, personality,tactics, philosophy are on different ends of the spectrum. Sure, on a superficial level they're the same character, but they're really nothing alike. Batman changed over time. And he didn't need a retcon punch or a crisis to make it happen, it just happened on its own.

Now, if this kind of change is happening all the time, inevitably, because characters must evolve with each new era of readers, why in God's name would you get angry that something that happened in Son of the Demon (which is from about twenty years ago) is represented a different way now? It doesn't invalidate that story. It doesn't invalidate that writer or his ideas. Morrison's story is simply a story that is being written NOW.

I don't think Morrison is the second-coming, but his work is always interesting. This story is no exception. The raging on and on about the injustice he's committed by simply having Batman remark that he was drugged...this is way out of line.

Fanboys need to start acknowledging that this is fiction and it should be critiqued as such. Talia is not real. She does not have a life. Morrison has not ruined it.

[OverMaster]

What bugs me of this is that Morrison apparently couldn't afford himself to spend half an hour, one hour or hour and a half, whatever, to reread Son of the Demon right before starting with his script.

That reeks of horribly bad care for the readers, the characters, and the work itself, dammit.

Bad Grant, bad.

[Kid Omega]

I've been saying this ever since I got on these CBR boards.

Continuity is an illusion, people! The Batman of 1960 and the Batman of 1980 are completely different people! Their goals, personality,tactics, philosophy are on different ends of the spectrum. Sure, on a superficial level they're the same character, but they're really nothing alike. Batman changed over time. And he didn't need a retcon punch or a crisis to make it happen, it just happened on its own.

Now, if this kind of change is happening all the time, inevitably, because characters must evolve with each new era of readers, why in God's name would you get angry that something that happened in Son of the Demon (which is from about twenty years ago) is represented a different way now? It doesn't invalidate that story. It doesn't invalidate that writer or his ideas. Morrison's story is simply a story that is being written NOW.

I don't think Morrison is the second-coming, but his work is always interesting. This story is no exception. The raging on and on about the injustice he's committed by simply having Batman remark that he was drugged...this is way out of line.

Fanboys need to start acknowledging that this is fiction and it should be critiqued as such. Talia is not real. She does not have a life. Morrison has not ruined it.

I think I love you.

[carabas]

It is only bad care if you consider strickt continuity to be at all important, which I'm quite sure most of Morrison's audience don't.

And after finally reading Son Of The Demon when it got reprinted completely free of nostalgia, I have to say that it was one of the worst Batman stories I have ever read (not counting War Games and stories featuring Hush or Bane)

[Agent Helix]

Continuity be damned, it's just a fun Batman story that I've been enjoying.

[StrikeForce Albert]

Thanks DC... for the LAMEST out in comics history!



Bendis has that beat with "Warped Prism of Wanda" and "Layla Miller"

try again

[glennsim]

I've been saying this ever since I got on these CBR boards.

Continuity is an illusion, people! The Batman of 1960 and the Batman of 1980 are completely different people! Their goals, personality,tactics, philosophy are on different ends of the spectrum. Sure, on a superficial level they're the same character, but they're really nothing alike. Batman changed over time. And he didn't need a retcon punch or a crisis to make it happen, it just happened on its own.

Now, if this kind of change is happening all the time, inevitably, because characters must evolve with each new era of readers, why in God's name would you get angry that something that happened in Son of the Demon (which is from about twenty years ago) is represented a different way now? It doesn't invalidate that story. It doesn't invalidate that writer or his ideas. Morrison's story is simply a story that is being written NOW.

I don't think Morrison is the second-coming, but his work is always interesting. This story is no exception. The raging on and on about the injustice he's committed by simply having Batman remark that he was drugged...this is way out of line.

Fanboys need to start acknowledging that this is fiction and it should be critiqued as such. Talia is not real. She does not have a life. Morrison has not ruined it.

That would be fair, except Morrison did (badly) reference a previous story to create this new one. Which means he's leveraging continuity. If he thinks continuity is worth using, what's the problem with suggesting he use it more correctly?

And "Batman" isn't just fiction. It's serial fiction. One story after the other taking place in the same world.

That being said, we're now reading about the post-Infinite Crisis history-altered New Earth, so what we're seeing is quite possibly the way things went down in the new "revised" history.

[brundlefly]

What bugs me of this is that Morrison apparently couldn't afford himself to spend half an hour, one hour or hour and a half, whatever, to reread Son of the Demon right before starting with his script.

That reeks of horribly bad care for the readers, the characters, and the work itself, dammit.

Bad Grant, bad.

Well, it's nice to be proven right about Morrison often being lazy regarding researching or putting long-term thought into his writing (there was a recent extended tiff about that in the X-boards regarding some of his ideas during his NXM run), but agreed with most of you that it is frankly just disappointing. I would almost prefer to be wrong on that note as opposed to reading him quoted as "nah, I didn't even read the source material when I wrote this story based on it" and then tossing in a weak joke about retcon punches to try to deflect from the fact that he didn't do his homework.

This will be a fun, lightweight Batman adventure story, and I'm sure some people will hype it up and make it seem more important & groundbreaking than it really is based simply on who's writing it, but in the end I don't see either Damien or the "rape" itself sticking around or the story having much long-term significance. Damien'll end up joining Lena Luthor in character limbo simply based on other writers not wanting to incorporate him into their stories and Talia will just change personality & motives again the next time we see her under another writer (as seems to be her MO).

[The Shadow]

Count me as another guy who didn't see it as rape
I get what you are saying about the supporting character bit... but if a man did that to a woman it would set off a sh!t storm.

[The Shadow]

Does Avengers Forever REALLY hold up against Seven Soldiers
Seven soldiers had a lot more pages to tell the story... but in the end, no I don't think so.

Flex Mentallo
Never read it.

Doom Patrol
Yes! Far outstrips DP (IMO of course).

StormWatch
Which version?

Moore's Super-work . . .really? No, of course not. It's nowhere near that level.
Yeah... but no one else is near that level either.

[The Shadow]

Bendis has that beat with "Warped Prism of Wanda" and "Layla Miller"

try again
No freakin way.

Superboy punches walls that reverberate and send time altering shockwaves across the universe?

All Wanda did was get rid of mutants... many of whom will get repowered again eventually.

And Layla? She just "knows stuff" in X-Factor (best X book on the shelves at the moment too). How is she an out to anything?

If Morrison doesn't do his homework (like here) all he has to say is "Retcon punch" and it's all fixed. How does that work with Layla and Wanda??

[Constantine Drakon]

I don't have the Wizard, and I won't be buying it, so I'm curious as to what exactly he says. Does he sincerely apologize, or does he just admit that there's inconsistencies before shrugging and moving on?


I can understand why some people say it's not a problem if he plays it a little fast and loose with continuity. But I expect an author to know at least the broad strokes of what was written before. I own two stories where Bruce comes very close to giving up being Batman in order to be with Talia. Those crazy cats were head over heels in love. That's not an obscure fact either, the Ra's al Ghul stories were reprinted just recently, and you can get a pretty good impression of it from watching the Ra's episodes of the Animated Series. Maybe these stories were written 20 or more years ago, but DC has done a good job keeping them fresh in our mind. So having Batman and Talia act hateful to one another is jarring. Having him remember her raping him was enough to sour the story significantly for me. And if Morisson's intent was that she really did rape him, and it's not just Batman being confused, then honestly this arc is trashed for me. The Ninja Man Bats were nice, but nowhere near as interesting as what was between Bruce and Talia. I don't think it's expecting too much for a writer to remember the broad strokes of some major stories, even if "continuity is an illusion". Loose continuity does not excuse fumbling the characterization of a well known and pretty major character. The fact that he's writing a direct sequel to a story he apparently never bothered to reference is an embarassment, especially considering that DC just rereleased the story.

When people say that DC made a big mistake because Shiva said she had no kids while under Turth Serum in Death in the Family, only to have it turn out she's Batgirl's mother, I roll my eyes. I can turn my head to continuity, no problem, when it fits the characters. When the changes are things I have a very hard time reconciling with the characters, then it has a negative effect on my enjoyment of the story. It's like asking me to believe Gwen Stacy having twins by Norman Osborne. No way man, you want to play it fast and loose with continuity that's one thing, but don't ask me to forget who the characters were.

[Mia]

I don't have the Wizard, and I won't be buying it, so I'm curious as to what exactly he says. Does he sincerely apologize, or does he just admit that there's inconsistencies before shrugging and moving on?


He basically admits that there are inconsitencies before shrugging and moving on.

[Joe Rice]

Seven soldiers had a lot more pages to tell the story... but in the end, no I don't think so.


Avengers Forever is a anal continuity-fix with stiff, over-rendered art. It's a decent superhero yarn. It isn't great work. Where's the formal experimentation and mastery?

Never read it.

Perhaps the seminal modern superhero story.


Yes! Far outstrips DP (IMO of course).

Ridiculous. Thematically, artistically, with scope and reach DP far outstretches what amounts to a decent punch-em story.


Which version?

Ellis'.


Yeah... but no one else is near that level either.
Not many, but there's some.

[Constantine Drakon]

(As a side note, I have to say I'm a little surprised that anyone thinks a story automatically has no mistakes if an editor has read it. Leslie Thompkins as an evil murderer, Alfred as the insane villain Outsider, Jason Todd returning from the dead, and even worse stories have all had editors).

[StrikeForce Albert]

No freakin way.



Warped Prism of Wanda was dumb as hell. I think the Retcon Punch gets overplayed but at least they made it make sense in a comicbook type way. They gave no explaining of Wanda doing what she did in Avengers: Dis. Oh wait yes they did, Janet talked about her period and caused Wanda to go crazy :rolleyes:

Layla was a lame psuedo-deus ex machina used by Bendis cause he didn't know what the hell he was doing and needed to create himself an out.

[The Shadow]

Ridiculous. Thematically, artistically, with scope and reach DP far outstretches what amounts to a decent punch-em story.
Over how many issues though? Wasn't he on the book for several YEARS? It's not a fair comparrison.

Ellis'.
Never read it.
But in keeping with my theme... how many issues did Ellis do? Was it more than 12?

Not many, but there's some.
Nah... no one comes close.

His breadth and depth is astounding.

[Joe Rice]

Number of issues has nothing to do with the quality of work.

[Choppa]

Lol at the idea that this is how things happened in New Earth. What's more likely, that Morrison actually planned things to work out that way or just didn't a crap? What's the point in having a continuity cleaning story (IC) if DC never wants to have a set continuity for anything. I don't get it.

[bfrank]

The history of New Earth is different than that of the post crisis earth, correct? what's the big deal? it should have been acknowledged as such, and folks need to move on.....

I for one can't wait to read the responses when Jason Todd slips Talia a mickey....

[The Shadow]

Number of issues has nothing to do with the quality of work.
Sure it does. 12 issues verses 3 years of issues allows Morrison to touch on things Busiek couldn't. It gave Morrison more room to weave his entire tapestry.

I'd put the first 12 issues of DP up against Avengers Forever anyday.

And you called Pacheco's art stiff? I think he's one of the most fluid in the business. His characters have a sense of motion.

Richard Case's on the other hand are too blocky with no fluidity. His art looks like a poor man's Mike Mignola.... though the naked chick without a face and an eye above her boobs looks good ;)

[The Shadow]

(As a side note, I have to say I'm a little surprised that anyone thinks a story automatically has no mistakes if an editor has read it.
Allow me to illustrate.

Leslie Thompkins as an evil murderer
Retcon Punch!

Alfred as the insane villain Outsider
Retcon Punch... AND Judd Winick (nuff said).

Jason Todd returning from the dead
See above.

[The Shadow]

Oh wait yes they did, Janet talked about her period and caused Wanda to go crazy
You must have missed the whole House of M thing regarding her kids and her Darker Than Scarlet days.

That's why it made no sense to you. You didn't actually read it all!

Layla was a lame psuedo-deus ex machina used by Bendis cause he didn't know what the hell he was doing and needed to create himself an out. [/QUOTE]
Again I don't see where you're going with this. At all.

How is Layla "a lame psuedo-deus ex machina" for anything? And Bendis isn't even using her now.,.. Peter David is.

[IamtheRock3]

Count me as another guy who didn't see it as rape or as a completely-accurate memory. Also as someone who's not emotionally invested in supporting characters enough to blow a gasket about this.


You know for all the claims of people being fanboys

Comics seem to be the few mediums where you can use that as an OUT for iffy writing


People Complain the Clarise Acted out of charcter in hanible and that was written by the charcters CREATOR

People would complain if a charcter in a sitcom that they liked acted out charcter.

Most mediums you get those complaint. It a VERY fair crituque, namely when the story is a Sequel

Why should comics be any differnt

[Joe Rice]

Sure it does. 12 issues verses 3 years of issues allows Morrison to touch on things Busiek couldn't. It gave Morrison more room to weave his entire tapestry.

I'd put the first 12 issues of DP up against Avengers Forever anyday.

And you called Pacheco's art stiff? I think he's one of the most fluid in the business. His characters have a sense of motion.


A work is either great or it isn't. The length has nothing to do with it. It's not like Avengers Forever got shortened so Busiek didn't get to touch on philosophy or anything other than guys hitting each other. He had plenty of time. The fact remains that it's a far inferior work to the mentioned bits by creators not in love with their characters.

My bad on the Pacheco thing. I think he's pretty good. I thought Perez drew that. So the art was good on that bit. But it still doesn't come anywhere close to DP, Flex, StormWatch, and dozens of other genre comics written by more ambivalent-towards-corporate-characters writers. You said it was as good, I claimed otherwise and gave substatial back-up. You moved the goal-posts "They had more tiiiime!"

Flex Mentallo was four issues. Even if length really made things better (it doesn't), you'd still be losing this one.

[PaulTiberius]

Layla was a lame psuedo-deus ex machina used by Bendis cause he didn't know what the hell he was doing and needed to create himself an out.
Again I don't see where you're going with this. At all.

How is Layla "a lame psuedo-deus ex machina" for anything? And Bendis isn't even using her now.,.. Peter David is.

I think the point is that within the scope of the House of M series, Layla was a "lame pseudo-deus ex machina" to give the altered characters an out, a mechanism for them to see through the altered world and remember how it was supposed to be. I think the criticism is valid, because her character came out of nowhere and served simply as this mechanism to move the plot forward. And it's probably even more of a criticism that Bendis isn't using this character anywhere, suggesting he didn't have any plans for her besides serving as this plot device.

[Constantine Drakon]

The history of New Earth is different than that of the post crisis earth, correct? what's the big deal? it should have been acknowledged as such, and folks need to move on.....

I for one can't wait to read the responses when Jason Todd slips Talia a mickey....

Like I said before, even if this is a "New Earth" I do expect writers to keep the broad strokes of major characters in each book (there's a reason they're major). There's more than one story with Bruce Wayne coming close to giving up life as Batman in order to be with Talia, and she offered to leave her father for him. That's some pretty significant stuff, and I think the very least you could do after reading it is say that they were seriously in love. Even if a writer doesn't get all the details of the Talia stories right, I do expect him to keep "and they were in love". Even if I can't reconcile what I'm reading with the stories I read, I expect to at least be able to reconcile that characters with what I've read before. Instead I'm reading about Talia being basically a bitch, and Bruce remembering her as a rapist. That's extremely jarring to say the least, and I have a hard time reconciling it with what I'd read before. And if Morisson's intent is truly that she's a rapist, he's changed the character into someone I can't recognize. I don't think that's good writing. To add insult to injury, DC rereleases the comic he's writing a supposed sequel to, and he doesn't read it himself? That doesn't strike me as being very professional. Even if you intend to take liberties with an original work as you make the sequel, shouldn't you at least read the original? But like I said, I'd be quite happy shrugging and moving on if he got details wrong and broad strokes right.

[Joe Rice]

Morrison has said he wasn't changing her into a rapist.

So that argument is dead.

[Constantine Drakon]

Morrison has said he wasn't changing her into a rapist.

So that argument is dead.

As I said, I haven't got the Wizard, only what's been said in this forum, and I may have missed something. What exactly does he say about it?

[Joe Rice]

As I said, I haven't got the Wizard, only what's been said in this forum, and I may have missed something. What exactly does he say about it?

That he thought he remembered the book right but that he didn't. He joked and apologized and moved on, like any rational person would.

[Constantine Drakon]

That he thought he remembered the book right but that he didn't. He joked and apologized and moved on, like any rational person would.

Okay... and? That tells me basically nothing. "Oops, I remembered it wrong, sorry" isn't the same as "oops, I remembered it wrong, that story is pretty much how it really happened, sorry".

It could mean he's not going to touch on the subject again, and it'll be someone else's job to decide if what Batman says is correct, or if it was closer to what was in the original story.

It could mean that he knows he got it wrong, and will put something in the story to show Batman's just remembering things wrong.

Or it could mean that he knows he made a mistake, but since this is "New Earth" he's going to continue with the idea that she raped him (which, I know, hasn't been explicitly stated as being true in the story yet).

The first option I'm not thrilled about, the second option I'd be fairly happy about, the third one I'd think of as bad writing. From that response I have no idea which way he's leaning.

[brundlefly]

That he thought he remembered the book right but that he didn't. He joked and apologized and moved on, like any rational person would.

AKA "the politician's deflection", for when one is being asked questions one doesn't want to answer or to elaborate on. We apparently get a retcon punch joke and a "moving on..." instead of, say, a useful or valid explanation for how he botched the specifics of a majorly-hyped story and didn't even read the original material beforehand. And, according to the prior quote, he also says he's not making Talia into a rapist, yet his story currently has her slipping Bruce a roofie and then date-raping him. Sounds like a real insightful interview. :rolleyes: As opposed to addressing things like this, I'm sure he went on at length about tantric sex or what's on his iPod playlist or other such self-involved topics instead.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't see how anyone can think Morrison isnt lazy. Or didn't screw this up.

Again, I'm not a continuity nut, but this is ridiculous.

If you're going to make a big deal about following a specific story, have that story reprinted and much press stating that it's a sequel... I think reading that story and following it isn't too much to ask. Personally.

[Black Atom]

Funny, I was on the other side of this discussion on the Civil War boards.

First off, does anyone have the actual article? I'd like to actually the comments in context.

Secondly, you know what? Lots of people read comics because they love the characters. That's nothing to be ashamed off. That's why there's movies, cartoons and underwear with Batman in them and none with Grant Morrison. Not every story has to be a postmodernist deconstruction of superheroes. Sometimes books are enjoyable because they're written by a writer who has the same love and respect for the characters that you do. It's not asking a lot to expect recognition of previously existing charactarization or stories. If you don't want to deal with contiuity, either as a writer or a reader, then perhaps serialized fiction is the wrong medium for you. Simple as that.

Having said that, this doesn't seem like a HUGE change in Talia's personality.
Also, didn't this already happen to Green Arrow? It's odd how many men get raped in the DC universe.

[Jack Roberts]

Why are two guys in here arguing whether Avengers Forever is better than Grant Morrison written comic #9? One man's art is another's tp, ya know.

[mattx110]

Funny, I was on the other side of this discussion on the Civil War boards.

First off, does anyone have the actual article? I'd like to actually the comments in context.

Secondly, you know what? Lots of people read comics because they love the characters. That's nothing to be ashamed off. That's why there's movies, cartoons and underwear with Batman in them and none with Grant Morrison.
actually, that's not entirely true...

[Mia]

Like I said before, even if this is a "New Earth" I do expect writers to keep the broad strokes of major characters in each book (there's a reason they're major). There's more than one story with Bruce Wayne coming close to giving up life as Batman in order to be with Talia, and she offered to leave her father for him. That's some pretty significant stuff, and I think the very least you could do after reading it is say that they were seriously in love. Even if a writer doesn't get all the details of the Talia stories right, I do expect him to keep "and they were in love". Even if I can't reconcile what I'm reading with the stories I read, I expect to at least be able to reconcile that characters with what I've read before. Instead I'm reading about Talia being basically a bitch, and Bruce remembering her as a rapist. That's extremely jarring to say the least, and I have a hard time reconciling it with what I'd read before. And if Morisson's intent is truly that she's a rapist, he's changed the character into someone I can't recognize. I don't think that's good writing. To add insult to injury, DC rereleases the comic he's writing a supposed sequel to, and he doesn't read it himself? That doesn't strike me as being very professional. Even if you intend to take liberties with an original work as you make the sequel, shouldn't you at least read the original? But like I said, I'd be quite happy shrugging and moving on if he got details wrong and broad strokes right.


Amen Brother. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Joe Rice]

Why are two guys in here arguing whether Avengers Forever is better than Grant Morrison written comic #9? One man's art is another's tp, ya know.

In opinion, but in some objectively measurable ways, art can be objectively better than other art. No one has to like the better art or enjoy it more, but they are not always equal.

[The Shadow]

I think the point is that within the scope of the House of M series, Layla was a "lame pseudo-deus ex machina" to give the altered characters an out, a mechanism for them to see through the altered world and remember how it was supposed to be. I think the criticism is valid, because her character came out of nowhere and served simply as this mechanism to move the plot forward
See and I thought it was better to use a totally unknown character... one that is suddenly there that "knows stuff" that no one else is suppose to know. Her sudden appearance and "knowing stuff" added much needed tension (through distrust) and didn't give the fanboys anything to whine about ("But Character X has never done THAT before!")

[The Shadow]

In opinion, but in some objectively measurable ways, art can be objectively better than other art. No one has to like the better art or enjoy it more, but they are not always equal.
I disagree Joe.

How can you PROVE to me a Renoir is objectively better than a Da Vinci?

How can you objectivly measure, and by extension prove to anyone that a Picasso is better than a Monet?

What makes the art better? And who judges and sets the standards for what is "objectively better than other art" at all?

[PaulTiberius]

See and I thought it was better to use a totally unknown character... one that is suddenly there that "knows stuff" that no one else is suppose to know. Her sudden appearance and "knowing stuff" added much needed tension (through distrust) and didn't give the fanboys anything to whine about ("But Character X has never done THAT before!")

Well, when you put it that way, it certainly sounds uncontroversial enough.

But her character is practically the definition of deus ex machina in House of M.

[carabas]

See and I thought it was better to use a totally unknown character... one that is suddenly there that "knows stuff" that no one else is suppose to know. Her sudden appearance and "knowing stuff" added much needed tension (through distrust) and didn't give the fanboys anything to whine about ("But Character X has never done THAT before!")

While there may some value to your points, if the story had been actually well written, there would not have been need of a deus ex machina character, beit a newly created one or an old favourite with a power boost.

[Joe Rice]

I disagree Joe.

How can you PROVE to me a Renoir is objectively better than a Da Vinci?

How can you objectivly measure, and by extension prove to anyone that a Picasso is better than a Monet?

What makes the art better? And who judges and sets the standards for what is "objectively better than other art" at all?

You either twist my words or wildly misunderstand them. I didn't say all art could be objectively compared. But I said some art could.

Can I objectively prove any of the things you said?

No.

But I could objectively prove that their work is better than mine, or a five year old's, or the old guy who sells at a yard sale. It's much easier to show vast differences (Liefeld vs. Moebius) than minor ones (Williams vs. Quitely). Same goes for writing, as well. Hence, Avengers Forever doesn't even come close to the objective standards set by the works I mentioned.

[Arkham Resident]

Dont know how it really goes but...

I'm of the idea that before any story from any writer gets a green light to be out there on the shelves, DC honchos must first sign-off, approve or at the very least proofread it.

If this is so, how the hell did they let Morrison's slip-up pass? unless they consider batman and Son not in continuity.:confused:

[the goddamn batman]

That's why there's underwear with Batman in them and none with Grant Morrison.


IN them? Actually, there is... click here (http://www.wackyjac.com/boudoir/gallery/gallery.html) if you don't believe me.

Watch the specific words you choose...

You have been warned.

[Mia]

Here's the transcript from the interview.



Wizard: Batman and Talia’s baby from Son of the Demon has been pretty much ignored by DC continuity for all these years. Did that make it tougher for you to tackle or more tempting?

Morrison: For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it’s just kind of out of continuity. I didn’t actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of the details, like Batman wasn’t drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn’t take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new “Superboy punch” continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don’t realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone’s ass.

Did you have Damian’s arrival planned before Bruce Wayne officially adopted Robin during James Robinson’s “Face the Face arc?”

Morrison: I came up with him before the [Robinson] stuff. I actually was asked to do Batman about a year ago. That’s when I outlined the first 15 issues. Damian came up because I wanted to do something controversial, and Son of the Demon was part of Batman lore that hadn’t really been looked at in a long time. I thought that there was interesting material there.

Is Damien the anti-Robin?

It’s more of the idea of Bruce Wayne being taken away as this young kid, the idea of Bruce being taken away at the moment his parent dies and indoctrinated into hate and murder, and what he’d be like as this ferocious little guy. But inside, he’d still be Bruce Wayne. He could still be something, I like stories of f-ck ups who can possibly become something more, and he’s definitely one of them.

What makes this kid so dangerous? Is it the genes her inherited from his parents or the training he received from Talia-nurture or nature?

He has all of Bruce’s qualities, but they’ve been written over by a really harsh, disciplinarian, totalitarian mentality that people have drummed into him. He’s been taught that murder is okay if it serves your ends and advances your purposes, but inside all that indoctrination there’s still some of Bruce . It’s nurture and nature. I want to play with that and see which way he falls.

Do you think he could be turned into a hero?”

That’s going to be the struggle. That’s what we’re gong to see. He’s this kid who’s been passed between his mom and dad, the kid who goes to visit dad on the weekend but lives with his mom—a kid who has two different lives. I want to see, more and more, how that affects his life. He does admire Batman. He wants to fight everyone when he gets there because he’s a messed up kid. He has to assert himself to be notice. He really suddenly realizes “It’s cool—Batman’s my Dad!”

Will he be sticking around in the Bat-verse?

Hopefully he’ll show up again. Once people see the final issue, I think they’re going to say he has to show up again.

When Damien was being, ahem conceived by Batman and Talia, why was Bats wearing his mask during sex:?

Don’t you? Let’s face it; We all have that mask. I didn’t write that into the script. Andy [Kubert] just drew it. I thought it was brilliant when I saw it.

[I AM SLIM]

him wearing the mask while doing the deed is so choice.

[Damo]

Morrison: For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it’s just kind of out of continuity. I didn’t actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of the details, like Batman wasn’t drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn’t take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new “Superboy punch” continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don’t realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone’s ass.


You know... that doesn't sound like an apology, and it doesn't sound like he's saying she didn't rape him. It sounds like he's saying he didn't read the book, so there are mistakes if you expect it to be like Son of the Demon, but since we're post IC he doesn't have to get his facts straight and whatever he writes is okay and what happened. I've gotta say I've lost a lot of respect for the guy.

Having said that, this doesn't seem like a HUGE change in Talia's personality.
Also, didn't this already happen to Green Arrow? It's odd how many men get raped in the DC universe.

And to Starman. Yeesh. It's not just the rapes, it's that there's always a kid. "My son being raised by my female enemy! Oh noes!"

It really is a gigantic change to Talia's personality. Now, after she left Ra's in JLA, writers have been writing her as more and more of a bitch (sorry for the language), especially after she hooked up with Nyssa. But at least part of why that's meant to be significant is that she really wasn't like that at all before she left Ra's. This was the woman Bruce nearly gave up being Batman for. Several times! Hell, she cried when he said he wouldn't go be with her, even when she offered to leave Ra's for him. And then he turned around and cried because he couldn't believe what a fool he was, unable to give up being Batman even to be with the woman he loved.

Oh, and in Son of the Demon? Batman marries Talia. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/married.jpg (note the mask off. Batman's not a dick.) It's a weird Ra's marriage, with Batman getting both control of Ra's Organization (The Demon) and Talia's hand in marriage too, but Bruce accepts. Talia pretends the pregnancy ended in misscarriage because 1) she sees that it's throwing him off his game, and he might get killed because of it, and 2) she realizes that he's so honorable that he'll give up being Batman, the thing that defines who he is, for the sake of the kid. She's not going to do that to him, she loves him too much.

To take that kind of history and turn it into even alleged rape... really you're not taking the story at all, just the idea that Talia and Batman had a kid. And more importantly, you're not taking the characters either.


I'd like to enter into the record that Joe Rice's avatar freaks me the hell out. I can't even bear to look at that thing...

[The Batman]

It seems to me that Morrison is more interested in bringing the idea of Batman and Talia having a son back into continuity than he is actually bringing Son of the Demon itself back in. I am willing to forgive him on this since, quite honestly, I barely noticed or cared all that much about the inconsistencies with SotD. Maybe that makes me a bad comic book fan, I don't know, but I am willing to let go of hyper-strict continuity in favour of an enjoyable story.

That being said, my issues with this are less about Morrison not getting everything absolutely right from on nearly 20 year old story and more about how Morrison is going to convince me that Batman, someone who is all about family IMO, would willingly trust his flesh and blood son with the head of the League of Assassins or even just let the kid go for that matter.

[Damo]

Oh, and Mia? Thanks for the transcript.

I had these uploaded a while back for something else, but what the heck, just as relevant now. Some pages from one of a few different stories that showed how Batman and Talia felt about one another.

Not very relevant, but since it continues on the next page, first meeting of Lady Shiva and Batman http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no18.jpg

Shiva's teacher, the O-Sensei, wants a word with Batman http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no19.jpg

A fable for Batman. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no20.jpg

Batman doesn't think it applies to him. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no21.jpg

A few adventures later, Talia almost gets herself killed saving Batman. Here's the aftermath. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no36.jpg

She makes him an offer http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no37.jpg

Some days it sucks to be Batman http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/Damoscans/no28.jpg

Like has been said a few times, you don't want to get the details right? Just general ideas? Fine, okay. Here's a general idea that you shouldn't be getting wrong: they were heavily in love.

[carabas]

Is anybody refuting that they were? (OK, maybe someone did, I'm not rereading this thread).

But that was ages ago. Batman has spurned her affections again and again and again. Not so strange then that she eventually turned to the dark side after all.

[Damo]

Is anybody refuting that they were? (OK, maybe someone did, I'm not rereading this thread).


Basically, yes. Morisson has Bruce remembering being drugged and raped, which doesn't seem right to me at least, no matter how much bad blood has developed between them since then. More importantly, and this is a little bit more unclear, Morisson might be saying that she definitely did drug and rape him. I think that's precisely what he's saying. If it was just Bruce remembering wrong, he could have said Bruce is remembering wrong. Instead he says "retcon punch", meaning that events in the past happened differently. I don't think you'd need to change events if it was Bruce's memory that was wrong, only if she really did rape him.

[carabas]

I don't really care what Morrison says in interviews. Especially in Wizard.
The actual book does not have Talia as a rapist.

[Black Atom]

IN them? Actually, there is... click here (http://www.wackyjac.com/boudoir/gallery/gallery.html) if you don't believe me.

Watch the specific words you choose...

You have been warned.

Horrible.

But you knew what I meant.

[the goddamn batman]

Yeah. But I ahd to do it! :D

[jwd]

Haven't read every post so if someone posted spoilers I didn't see them.

My guess ywhat will happen -

Daimen and Tim will both be in danger. Bruce will only have the chance to save one. He'll try to save Damien first. Tim will manage to save himself. Damien will run off because he thinks his father is weak or he'll think he needs to learn more on his own.

This will drive a wedge between Bruce and Tim somewhat. Especially with Bruce's recent adopting of Tim. It'll also leave out there a potential future villian for Bruce and the gang.

Personally I've been a bit underwhelmed by this story. I think after so many years of "Batdick" I've grown tired of the characters.

I already dropped 'Tec and after next issue I think I'll drop this book too.

[the goddamn batman]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov06/previews/nov1st.html

I don't think Tim is going anywhere.


and, how could you drop Tec?

[jwd]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov06/previews/nov1st.html

I don't think Tim is going anywhere.


and, how could you drop Tec?

Oh I don't think Tim is going anywhere either. I just think something will happen that will cause a bit of a rift between them. Nothing anywhere near the level that they were at in the past. They'll still work together and all but I'm just guessing Batman will hope Damien is able to be saved. Both his life and spirit.

Of course now that I think about it ... I'm probaby completely wrog.

As for dropping 'Tec - Well I'm pretty much burnt out on comics in general. A lot of comics are better than they've been in a long time but I'm just tired of the "endless battles" I suppose. The rising prices have been a pretty big factor in my decisions. Also looking back - I rarely reread my monthly books. I do however reread the occasional tpb so I'll probably continue to get them on occassion

[the goddamn batman]

You know, there are lots of comics that are everything and anything but the capes and their endless battles.

That's what I read. I still keep up with Batman and pick up runs like Dini on Tec, but no other superhero books interest me much anymore.

Check out some indie stuff some time. It's on the dusty rack in the back!;)

[PanzerMega]

Personally, I think "I f--cked up, retcon punch!" is a pretty cool response.

Besides, by the sounds of it, the actual Son of the Demon story still isn't in continuity, just some of the events are. If so, then it doesn't matter if it's exact or not.

Either way, someone else will come along and retcon everything later anyway. Look at Morrison's X-Men run.

[Mia]

Oh, and Mia? Thanks for the transcript.




No problem. I thought that since this thread has gone along far enough, I might as well post it (especially since I figure that most people won't be buying the magazine to begin with).

I can't add to this conversation anymore than what has already been posted and implied. This is very sloppy and arrogant story telling on Morissons part.

I am less disapointed with the notion that Morisson did not follow SOD than the fact that this story completely wipes out years of storytelling about Batman and Talia's complex relationship. Not to mention other stories. This story implies that Batman and Talia have not had any contact over the years.


I don't expect Pulitzer level writing when I pick up a comic book. But I do expect the writer to do his or her homework. I really think there are too many authors in comic books who take the fans for granted, and hence churn out mindless rubish.


No doubt some author will come along after Morsisson's run has ended and fix up the story or retcon it out.

[Kid Omega]

I don't expect Pulitzer level writing when I pick up a comic book. But I do expect the writer to do his or her homework. I really think there are too many authors in comic books who take the fans for granted, and hence churn out mindless rubish.



You really think one continuity error turns an entire story into "mindless rubbish"?

We are obviously operating with a different set of standards.

[Constantine Drakon]

You really think one continuity error turns an entire story into "mindless rubbish"?

We are obviously operating with a different set of standards.

At the very least, different standards of what constitutes "one continuity error". The ninja man bats were okay. They were what they promised to be. I always liked The Spook, so I wasn't happy with him being killed to prove how nasty Damian is. And Damian has annoyed me. His age seems a little weird - Batman didn't meet Ra's until pretty much as Dick was about to leave and become Nightwing. Even if you assume that the "new version of Son of the Demon" took place right after the first meeting with Ra's, that would still mean Dick graduated 8 or 10 years ago. Which felt wrong. I can look aside, provided everything else felt right, but everything else didn't feel right. I didn't like how Tim was writen as the world's largest idiot in their fight. The interactions between Bruce and Alfred felt forced, and very contradictory to what's been going on in Detective. Despite all that, I was still giving this story a B- in my head (mainly for sheer Chutzpah, but some parts of the Man Bat fight were very good) because it never even occurred to me that he wouldn't correct the mistakes in the conversation with Talia and Bruce. It was so incredibly wrong that I assumed it was part of a bigger plan. It's just a horrible scene, Bruce talking about being drugged senseless and refusing to cooperate in a "depraved eugenics experiment", a flashback of him wearing the mask with Talia (how unromantic can you be Grant?), Talia talking unemotionally about how she and Ra's chose him to breed a perfect heir. No talk of love, no outrage that he would say she drugged him. Just a smirking "you cooperated magnificently". And then she goes on to reveal she's apparently been aware all along of how Damian's been raised? What happened to the loving Talia that tried to give her son a better life? There's just an evil witch that let her son be turned into a monster, and doesn't mind being accused of raping the man she loved (and apparently did just that). That's not Talia, and getting a character's entire personality wrong is not one continuity error.

[Mia]

You really think one continuity error turns an entire story into "mindless rubbish"?

If that's what you got, then you clearly didn't read my post thoroughly. As Constantine Drakon has laid out. The problem with this story is hardly amounts to one continuity error. Everything in Morrison's story wipes out or disregards years, heck decades of storytelling covering the relationship between Batman and Talia and the whole Ra's Al Ghul organisation. I suggest that you at least read 'Tales of the Demon' to start with.





We are obviously operating with a different set of standards.

Obviously we are. I expect an author to have done his or her homework. And to have placed some thought into a story before telling it. Especially when I am paying money for it.

[IamtheRock3]

yea people confuse

it not about continuty erros

It about if said errors change the charcter in ways one doesnt like



To be honest if the direction of the continty error took things in a good direction. I be cool with it

But really it lessens the charcter..least in my opinion

[IamtheRock3]

in fairness though DC was making Talia more OLD SCHOOL evil for a while

[Kid Omega]

If that's what you got, then you clearly didn't read my post thoroughly. As Constantine Drakon has laid out. The problem with this story is hardly amounts to one continuity error. Everything in Morrison's story wipes out or disregards years, heck decades of storytelling covering the relationship between Batman and Talia and the whole Ra's Al Ghul organisation. I suggest that you at least read 'Tales of the Demon' to start with.



Oh. I've read it. I just don't care. Nothing you speak of has any bearing on my enjoyment of the current storyline. I could care less about the continiuity, as long as a) Batman and Robin are crimefighters by night, wealthy urban playboys by day, and b) it's a ripping yarn.


Obviously we are. I expect an author to have done his or her homework. And to have placed some thought into a story before telling it. Especially when I am paying money for it.

a. I imagine he has thought about the story. Quite a bit. But like myself, the continuity of mediocre, twenty year old stories is not important to him. Prorities are funny that way.

b. No one is forcing you to pay money for it. Your three dollars are pretty well cancelled out by mine, i guess, since I'm enjoying it.

[Constantine Drakon]

a. I imagine he has thought about the story. Quite a bit. But like myself, the continuity of mediocre, twenty year old stories is not important to him. Prorities are funny that way.

You seem quite insistent that we're upset about him not following the continuity of "mediocre twenty year old stories". I do wish you would stop, since I think everyone that's objected to his take in this thread has by now said that the problem was less with continuity and more with characterization. Like I said, if he doesn't want to get the facts straight about the old stories, I can't say I'm happy, but that alone would never ruin a story for me. But here we have Bruce accusing Talia of drugging and raping him, and her response is to say... that Ra's and her picked him because he would provide Ra's the perfect heir? To heck with "continuity", just write Talia and Bruce as people that used to be very much in love. I get that she's being written as a more evil woman now. That doesn't mean you go back and change the old stories so she was evil then too. You may as well say that since Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain have gone bad, references to their past should show they were always evil.

[Sean Whitmore]

To heck with "continuity", just write Talia and Bruce as people that used to be very much in love. I get that she's being written as a more evil woman now. That doesn't mean you go back and change the old stories so she was evil then too.

To be fair, adding rape to her resume only makes her slightly more evil. Talia is responsible for many murders and attempted murders (morally the same thing) simply by virtue of working for her father all those years.


SEAN

[IamtheRock3]

yes she was a bad gal.. but she tried to stop Ra's and save batman a lot

She was a Villan but was

bwwwwwwwwwwhahahahahha villan


Basicly the differnce between Say magneto, and The Joker

both pretty evil and responble for innocence death..but it all how layers each are. Or what kind of evil

Granted no one forcing us to read it. Still like the story, but that makes it lose a few points


Of course some people may make old argument

But Iamtherock..ARENT you wasting time complaining about the books. Well sure, but you know it a discussion board to I gather discuss batman comics

Again be pretty boring if

Guy 1- Did you like it

Guy 2- Yes

Guy- I didnt...welp nothing left to say

Guy 1- Yup

Guy 2- maybe explain why you didnt like it perhaps...

Guy 1- naaaa

Sure one could do better thing with there time

Build houses for Habitats for Humanity perhaps, Solve the world hunger promblem

But I feel While I doing those more important things, it doesnt hurt to discuss things on a dicussion boards


Continity should be important if he Advetise it was a sequel. So clearly he didnt think the story was THAT mediocre

listen morriosn a good writer..but this was simply sloppy

[carabas]

I said this already, but there is no reliable account in Batman #656 on how Damian was conceived. There are no continuity errors.
Batman and Talia's memories differ from the 20 year old stories. Memories are like that.
Talia seems to remember it best, bus has since undergone a huge change in how she regards Batman, brought on in part by Batman spurning her again and again and again (and by being dunked into a Lazarus Pit dozens of times by her sister).
Batman's is clouded by denial, shame, guilt and all of his other neuroses. He probably remembers it correctly, but he's not just going say out loud that he once was madly in love with the woman partly responsible for the destruction of Blüdhaven.

[TROUBLEZ]

I don't remember reading that she raped Batman, but if that's the case, where was the editor? Who cares about a mediocre story that's 20 years old, yet the writer must have because he's using that story as the springboard for his story.

I really hope that this is not his son. Selina's got a kid, Batmans got a kid, damn...I'm pretty sure no matter how you introduce a child of Batman, whether it's a greatly written, or the kid is nice instead of a lil bastard, it doesn't feel right that he has a kid already.

[shaxper]

The whole beauty of Son of the Demon was the sheer imaginative potential of knowing that Batman has a son out there somewhere. It left us to wonder what such a son might grow up to be (as well as what that might do to Bruce). Fans have had twenty years to come up with their own ideas about this. Now Morisson is stepping in and giving us an answer - but if it doesn't end up being the best possible answer (better than all the different answers we've envisioned in all this time), this storyline will inevitably fizzle. Morisson is stepping into big shoes, and the fact that he didn't even go back to reread the story suggests that he isn't taking that responsibility seriously.

[Joe Rice]

The whole beauty of Son of the Demon was the sheer imaginative potential of knowing that Batman has a son out there somewhere. It left us to wonder what such a son might grow up to be (as well as what that might do to Bruce). Fans have had twenty years to come up with their own ideas about this. Now Morisson is stepping in and giving us an answer - but if it doesn't end up being the best possible answer (better than all the different answers we've envisioned in all this time), this storyline will inevitably fizzle. Morisson is stepping into big shoes, and the fact that he didn't even go back to reread the story suggests that he isn't taking that responsibility seriously.

I think an important thing to realize, and this post goes towards that, is that though the "Son of the Demon" idea is strong that doesn't mean anything about the quality of the actual story. Yeah, it's a cool idea that Batman had a boy, but that story still wasn't great. It wasn't terrible, mind you, it just wasn't great. Morrison didn't necessarily think it was an amazing story he had to continue, he saw a germ of an idea that would lead to an amazing story.

[shaxper]

I think an important thing to realize, and this post goes towards that, is that though the "Son of the Demon" idea is strong that doesn't mean anything about the quality of the actual story. Yeah, it's a cool idea that Batman had a boy, but that story still wasn't great. It wasn't terrible, mind you, it just wasn't great. Morrison didn't necessarily think it was an amazing story he had to continue, he saw a germ of an idea that would lead to an amazing story.


Well I agree. I wasn't saying anything about the quality of SOTD, but since the whole power of the story was dependant upon the idea - a GREAT idea that we've had twenty years to ponder, Morisson has a responsibility not to kill that idea for us. If Damien doesn't turn out to be an awesome character, than the power of SOTD (dependant entirely upon the idea, as you say) will be squelched. I'll never be able to enjoy that story again since it will no longer be open-ended, leaving us to wonder. Instead, it will end up being an origin story for a two-bit Batman character that fell out of continuity after a year or so.

[Joe Rice]

Well I agree. I wasn't saying anything about the quality of SOTD, but since the whole power of the story was dependant upon the idea - a GREAT idea that we've had twenty years to ponder, Morisson has a responsibility not to kill that idea for us. If Damien doesn't turn out to be an awesome character, than the power of SOTD (dependant entirely upon the idea, as you say) will be squelched. I'll never be able to enjoy that story again since it will no longer be open-ended, leaving us to wonder. Instead, it will end up being an origin story for a two-bit Batman character that fell out of continuity after a year or so.

Understood. My reply was more at the folks saying, "How could it be mediocre if Morrison is writing a sequel?!?"

[Sir Tim Drake]

And to Starman. Yeesh. It's not just the rapes, it's that there's always a kid. "My son being raised by my female enemy! Oh noes!"

It also happened to Nexus, and to Tom Strong on two different occasions.

[Agentum]

Intresting thread, it shows that even the best ones can make a misstake sometimes.

He at least said it was a misstake, he can't be perfect all the time.

And maybe he did this job just as a job without any extra included.

I don't say that i think this is how the writers should do their job, but i mean we have lots of awful storys from writers that probably read the books it was based on:D

[bfrank]

Basically, yes. Morisson has Bruce remembering being drugged and raped, which doesn't seem right to me at least, no matter how much bad blood has developed between them since then.
...and that's great and all, but love it or f#$k it, alex and IC have made them different people with different histories, post crisis (COIE) continuity is as dead as pre crisis (COIE).....

[the film freak]

It also happened to Nexus, and to Tom Strong on two different occasions.

And King Arthur.

[Jaye]

Sorry, but fucked up questions like "Can a hot woman even rape a guy" do not belong on this board. Do not start that conversation again.

[The Shadow]

Morrison /snip/ saw a germ of an idea that would lead to an amazing story.
Calling it an amazing story might be jumping the gun a bit. So far it's entertaining... but until its over calling it amazing is getting ahead of oneself.

[Joe Rice]

Calling it an amazing story might be jumping the gun a bit. So far it's entertaining... but until its over calling it amazing is getting ahead of oneself.

I meant he saw it as amazing. So far, I don't think it's that good.

[Joe Rice]

And thank you 13th. I was afraid to return to see this thread.

[Harding Prime]

All I am saying, which has nothing to do with that topic, just the topic of how Morrison can use his mis-recollection of Son of Demon to his advantage is...Everyone is saying that Batman was not taken advantage of in Son of Demon, but it is 13 years ago, and they hate each other NOW, so maybe his recollection is different from the truth. Is everyone telling me that they haven't possibly unconsciencely modified the truth of something that happened to better their psychy? I think most people do it, and Morrison could write it like that.

[glennsim]

All I am saying, which has nothing to do with that topic, just the topic of how Morrison can use his mis-recollection of Son of Demon to his advantage is...Everyone is saying that Batman was not taken advantage of in Son of Demon, but it is 13 years ago, and they hate each other NOW, so maybe his recollection is different from the truth. Is everyone telling me that they haven't possibly unconsciencely modified the truth of something that happened to better their psychy? I think most people do it, and Morrison could write it like that.

Except that Batman is the world's greatest detective, so mis-remembering the details of something is not something one would expect him to do. If anything, he remembers things more accurately than most.

Another, larger, issue is that if this happened 13 years ago, then how long has it been since Bruce became Batman? 20 years? Is he in his 40s?

[IamtheRock3]

All I am saying, which has nothing to do with that topic, just the topic of how Morrison can use his mis-recollection of Son of Demon to his advantage is...Everyone is saying that Batman was not taken advantage of in Son of Demon, but it is 13 years ago, and they hate each other NOW, so maybe his recollection is different from the truth. Is everyone telling me that they haven't possibly unconsciencely modified the truth of something that happened to better their psychy? I think most people do it, and Morrison could write it like that.


Could write it like that, so far hasnt

[Harding Prime]

Furthermore, I still think it is good writing as pertains to Talia. Because I think that she is evil, and I wouldn't put it past her to take advantage of someone she has feelings for to get her final outcome, and that would be an heir to her father. They always wanted Bruce to be that heir, what better then his son. It's not far fetched at all...The Ghul family will do things by any means neccasary.

[Harding Prime]

Except that Batman is the world's greatest detective, so mis-remembering the details of something is not something one would expect him to do. If anything, he remembers things more accurately than most.

Another, larger, issue is that if this happened 13 years ago, then how long has it been since Bruce became Batman? 20 years? Is he in his 40s?


Year one started when he was 18, after the first Crisis. It was very earlier in the batman retconned saga, his age is always in the air. you take that with a grain of salt.

[HRaudsepp]

Sorry, but fucked up questions like "Can a hot woman even rape a guy" do not belong on this board. Do not start that conversation again.

No one was suggesting that Talia being "hot" had any bearing on whether a rape took place. I agree, that would have been an offensive turn for the discussion to take.

[glennsim]

Year one started when he was 18, after the first Crisis. It was very earlier in the batman retconned saga, his age is always in the air. you take that with a grain of salt.

So someone gave a 21-year-old guardianship of an 8-year-old boy?

When did he get a college education, much less travel the world?

[Harding Prime]

I'd say try taking a look at a timeline for batman, what I do know is that this version of the DC U started in 1986.

[Constantine Drakon]

When Batman met Ra's, Dick was kidnapped from College. This was shortly before he became Nightwing. I can believe he's been Nighting maybe 8 years at most, 13 feels very wrong.

Furthermore, I still think it is good writing as pertains to Talia. Because I think that she is evil, and I wouldn't put it past her to take advantage of someone she has feelings for to get her final outcome, and that would be an heir to her father. They always wanted Bruce to be that heir, what better then his son. It's not far fetched at all...The Ghul family will do things by any means neccasary.

I think you have a very poor grasp on her character, or a very black and white view when it comes to evil. How many of the original stories have you read? Until some recent characterizations she has never been evil. She did bad things out of loyalty to her father and belief in him, but she would then turn around and disobay him because she felt some particular thing he was doing fell under the ends not justifying the means. It's why the two ended up splitting up during Tower of Babel. She looked up to him and wanted to honor him, but sometimes the things he suggested were too blatantly immoral.

I find it very hard to believe that Batman would incorrectly remember sleeping with someone he loved to the point he remembers it as him being raped. That's a whopper to swallow, as far as I'm concerned. I find it even more hard to believe that Talia, no matter how much she's grown apart from Batman, would listen to him accusing her of rape and respond not with indignation but with a bland statement that she and her father thought he would provide them with a good heir. That seems the reaction of someone that really did do what they were accused of, and felt ludicrously out of character.

[Harding Prime]

Until some recent characterizations she has never been evil. She did bad things out of loyalty to her father and belief in him, but she would then turn around and disobay him because she felt some particular thing he was doing fell under the ends not justifying the means.


So I think she would do something like this to appease her Father. It's not like she could go back afterwards when up in arms towards him and fix it, whats done is done. And the rift between her and Batman is not going to make her emotional when he accuses her of drugging him, she would take it in stride like she did, out of spite. btw, I own Son of Demon.

[Jaye]

No one was suggesting that Talia being "hot" had any bearing on whether a rape took place. I agree, that would have been an offensive turn for the discussion to take.



You missed a dozen deleted posts.

[Joe Rice]

You missed a dozen deleted posts.

And thank the good Lord that you did.

Or thank 13th, either way.

[Harding Prime]

You missed a dozen deleted posts.

I saw them, I was there. BTW, it was just a joke, but then it became and actual discussion. I understand the deletion. My point on how Morrison can move things to his advantage still stand well though.

[Mia]

I said this already, but there is no reliable account in Batman #656 on how Damian was conceived. There are no continuity errors.
Batman and Talia's memories differ from the 20 year old stories. Memories are like that.
Talia seems to remember it best, bus has since undergone a huge change in how she regards Batman, brought on in part by Batman spurning her again and again and again (and by being dunked into a Lazarus Pit dozens of times by her sister).
Batman's is clouded by denial, shame, guilt and all of his other neuroses. He probably remembers it correctly, but he's not just going say out loud that he once was madly in love with the woman partly responsible for the destruction of Blüdhaven.

I think the way in which Damien was conceived was the least of the problems in this story.


Like CD and Damo have mentioned countless times above, the relationship and the feelings between the two have been ignored. Even the last encounter between Batman and Talia that took place in Death and The Maidens, has been ignored. This story makes it seem like and implies that Batman and Talia have not crossed paths in years. And the only time that they met was when they had sex or Talia 'raped' him. There may be no continuity errors in how Damien was conceived. Especially since nothing in this story remotely resembles what took place in the SOD.



This is really sloppy and lazy on Morrison's part. It's not like he was handed the book to write two weeks before the publishing deadline. And it's not like SOD is hard to get a hold of. There are copies on Ebay and I am sure that even if there weren't. DC would have given him a copy.The things he's said about Batman in interviews imply that he is very familiar with the character and his history. It's not like Talia is some obscure girlfriend or character. He would have been better if he invented some old jilted girlfriend for this story. I've never been a fan of his. But this just plain unproffessional.

This story is so ludicrous and absurd that I have no doubt that it will either be retconned out or someone will fix it.

And to think that it's SOD that taken out of continuity. Mike Barr must be shaking with rage.

[Mia]

Oh. I've read it. I just don't care. Nothing you speak of has any bearing on my enjoyment of the current storyline. I could care less about the continiuity,

But we are not talking about your own personal enjoyment are we? We are talking about a writer doing their homework and putting thought into a story.


as long as a) Batman and Robin are crimefighters by night, wealthy urban playboys by day, and b) it's a ripping yarn..

Interesting. You mention that you don't care about continuity. Yet insist that it is important that "Batman and Robin are crimefighters by night, wealthy urban playboys by day" which is in itself an aspect of continuity. Make up your mind.





a. I imagine he has thought about the story...

There's no evidence to show that he has. From the begining Grant Morrison has admited that this story would be based on SOD. When nothing in this story shows that to be the case. In fact he fesses up to it being the exact opposite.


Quite a bit. But like myself, the continuity of mediocre, twenty year old stories is not important to him. Prorities are funny that way..

I think that if that were the case, Morisson would hardly be admiting to how "Superboy retcon punch" has saved him. Also if the story is 'mediocre' then why tackle it in the first place? If the story from whence it originated is as you term it 'mediocre' then why are you bothering to read it in the first place? I take it you have a love of mediocrity. Which is probably why you enujoy this story.;)


b. No one is forcing you to pay money for it. Your three dollars are pretty well cancelled out by mine, i guess, since I'm enjoying it.


UH no it doesn't. Because 3 dollars added to another 3 dollars equals 6 dollars. Not 3 dollars. Nothing is cancelled out.

[Joe Rice]

Interesting. You mention that you don't care about continuity. Yet insist that it is important that "Batman and Robin are crimefighters by night, wealthy urban playboys by day" which is in itself an aspect of continuity. Make up your mind.

Basic character concept and agreement with every single story ever are two very different things.






There's no evidence to show that he has. From the begining Grant Morrison has admited that this story would be based on SOD. When nothing in this story shows that to be the case. In fact he fesses up to it being the exact opposite.

So because it doesn't line up exactly with a mediocre old story he hasn't thought about his story at all? That doesn't work.



If the story from whence it originated is as you term it 'mediocre' then why are you bothering to read it in the first place? I take it you have a love of mediocrity. Which is probably why you enujoy this story.;)

Your logic is ridiculously faulty. A good story can be written inspired by a mediocre one. There's nothing else I can tell you about that . . .

[The Shadow]

I meant he saw it as amazing. So far, I don't think it's that good.
Ah!

Got ya!

I've been entertained by the story so far... but I was also entertained by the recent Dukes of Hazzard movie as well ;) :p

I agree it's not that good... it's not that bad either... just "meh."

[Harding Prime]

BTW - You can go pick up Son of Demon at your local comic store. It was reprinted to coincide with this story arc.

[brundlefly]

Ah!

Got ya!

I've been entertained by the story so far... but I was also entertained by the recent Dukes of Hazzard movie as well ;) :p

I agree it's not that good... it's not that bad either... just "meh."

Exactly. For all the bashing in this thread of SON OF THE DEMON as "mediocre," Morrison's Batman so far has been pretty, as you said, "meh" and has most certainly not justified all the hype around it, particularly given that he himself doesn't seem to be taking it very seriously or putting much effort into it. Frankly, I'm enjoying Dini's DETECTIVE run more at the moment and find Kubert's art to be the highlight of BATMAN, as opposed to Morrison's involvement.

[Harding Prime]

My only problem with the Dini run is that they all seem to be one shots. I'm not a huge fan of the art either. Kubert is one of my favorite artists.

[The Shadow]

I'm enjoying Dini's DETECTIVE run more at the moment
As am I.

I think it's some of the best and most consistent Batman in YEARS.

[brundlefly]

As am I.

I think it's some of the best and most consistent Batman in YEARS.

Agreed. His great usage of some of the iconic Bat-rogues, like Riddler, Penguin and Ivy is a breath of fresh air after the pre-IC overexposure of junk villains like Hush and Black Mask. I love Riddler's recurring role as a private detective. The one-issue story format of DETECTIVE doesn't bother me, particularly these days with two or three issue stories being padded into six-part TPB formats.

[carabas]

the relationship and the feelings between the two have been ignored. Even the last encounter between Batman and Talia that took place in Death and The Maidens, has been ignored.

Really? In my copy, that encounter ends this way:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Talia1.jpg

'Death and the Maidens' effectively ended the relationship (until a writer comes along who thinks otherwise anyway).

This story makes it seem like and implies that Batman and Talia have not crossed paths in years.

How so? Just because there is no Claremontian summary of the last three decades? If so, any time any of the JLA met the others was in JLA #1.

This is really sloppy and lazy on Morrison's part. It's not like he was handed the book to write two weeks before the publishing deadline. And it's not like SOD is hard to get a hold of.

Sticking to the details of 20 year old stories that weren't very good to begin with might be a virtue in a historian, but not in a writer of fiction.

It's not like Talia is some obscure girlfriend or character.

No. She's the woman partly responsible for the destruction of Blüdhaven. She sicked Jason Todd on himl.

This story is so ludicrous and absurd that I have no doubt that it will either be retconned out or someone will fix it.

I don't think anyone will lose sleap over whether or not this remains in continuity or not, least of all Morrison.

And to think that it's SOD that taken out of continuity. Mike Barr must be shaking with rage.

Shaking with rage? He really should not be working in the comic book industry if that's his likely reaction.

[Joe Rice]

Really? In my copy, that encounter ends this way:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Talia1.jpg

'Death and the Maidens' effectively ended the relationship (until a writer comes along who thinks otherwise anyway).



How so? Just because there is no Claremontian summary of the last three decades? If so, any time any of the JLA met the others was in JLA #1.



Sticking to the details of 20 year old stories that weren't very good to begin with might be a virtue in a historian, but not in a writer of fiction.



No. She's the woman partly responsible for the destruction of Blüdhaven. She sicked Jason Todd on himl.



I don't think anyone will lose sleap over whether or not this remains in continuity or not, least of all Morrison.



Shaking with rage? He really should not be working in the comic book industry if that's his likely reaction.

Quoted post, I love what you've done with your hair. How would you like to spend an evening with a bottle of wine, some feathers, and a waterbed? Smell my musk. It seethes for you.

[Sean Whitmore]

Quoted post, I love what you've done with your hair. How would you like to spend an evening with a bottle of wine, some feathers, and a waterbed? Smell my musk. It seethes for you.


You're cheating on that post from the Superman Confidential thread already? Shameless.


SEAN

[Joe Rice]

You're cheating on that post from the Superman Confidential thread already? Shameless.


SEAN

Listen, there's a lot of beautiful, beautiful posts out there. Maybe one day I'll be able to commit to one and only one. But right now, in the prime of my youth, I feel it is my duty to love them as much as I can, as often as I can.

[carabas]

Quoted post, I love what you've done with your hair. How would you like to spend an evening with a bottle of wine, some feathers, and a waterbed? Smell my musk. It seethes for you.

Not with an avatar looking like that I won't. It is... disturbing.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

This is all because of that shoehorned character Nyssa.

I knew something bad would happen when Klaus Janson drew her like my sister-in-law. I was right. Two Stories around about the same time destroyed 30 years of continuity. Death & The Maidens and Close Before Striking by Brian Vaughn.

Both of which were unreadable dreck.

[Harding Prime]

And to think that it's SOD that taken out of continuity. Mike Barr must be shaking with rage.

SOD was brought BACK into continuity for this story arc, so why would Barr be mad?

[The Batman]

Or maybe Mike Barr has other things going on and isn't that worry about if stories he wrote 20 years ago are in or out of continuity?

[Mia]

SOD was brought BACK into continuity for this story arc, so why would Barr be mad?


Because Morrison has been advertising this since the beggining that it was a revitalisation of SOD. When this story clearly has nothing to do with SOD. Nothing at all. The only thing that these two stories have in common. It was disengenuous of him in the first place to have mentioned that it was an influence when he clearly did not use it.

Or maybe Mike Barr has other things going on and isn't that worry about if stories he wrote 20 years ago are in or out of continuity?

Probably. Since SOD was effectively taken out of continuity soon after it was published. So he's known for quite some time that it's not in continuity.

[Sean Whitmore]

Because Morrison has been advertising this since the beggining that it was a revitalisation of SOD.

Has he? I've never heard him say he was utilizing anything besides the one plot point.


SEAN

[Mia]

The boy with Talia - again, just getting everyone on the right page - he's the baby from Son of the Demon? Why pick that particular piece of history (that was at one time argued out of continuity, by Denny O'Neil) back into play?
GM: I was a huge fan of Mike Barr's Batman stories and well aware of the controversy surrounding Son of the Demon, so I thought it might be interesting to launch my run with a story guaranteed to raise some eyebrows. I also really liked the Ibn Al Xu'ffasch character from Kingdom Come (who was essentially the Son of the Demon baby all grown up) and felt that the notion of the bad son had a strong place in Batman lore and could be used to generate some interesting new stories.


The baby in this story is not the child from SOD or even Ibn Al Xu’ffasch, that child was given up after birth and adopted. Damien wasn’t.


Morrison would have been better having said that he wanted to write a story about Batman having to pay the consequences of his actions after having shagged (impregnated) the wrong woman. The whole invoking the use of SOD is misleading.

[Mia]

Originally Posted by Mia
the relationship and the feelings between the two have been ignored. Even the last encounter between Batman and Talia that took place in Death and The Maidens, has been ignored.

Really? In my copy, that encounter ends this way:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Talia1.jpg

'Death and the Maidens' effectively ended the relationship (until a writer comes along who thinks otherwise anyway)..

Exactly. That scene shows Talia has turned on Batman. But Batman did not turn on Talia and shows that he has feelings for her. Morisson's story implies that he never did. That it was merely one of him having sex with her while drugged.




How so? Just because there is no Claremontian summary of the last three decades? If so, any time any of the JLA met the others was in JLA #1.).

No because, as has been mentioned several times. It cancels out years and years of storytelling. Talia did not have feelings for Batman and he for her. And that their paths have never crossed since. In Batman 656, Talia says to Batman "Ra's Al Ghul is dead. This is my very own magnum opus." Well duh! Batman already knew that from DATM.







Sticking to the details of 20 year old stories that weren't very good to begin with might be a virtue in a historian, but not in a writer of fiction..).

Uh yes it is. It is part and parcel of comic book story telling. A comic book is
relating a sustained narrative. And like I said above, if the story was 'no good to begin with' then why claim that it was an influence in the first place?


No. She's the woman partly responsible for the destruction of Blüdhaven. She sicked Jason Todd on himl...).

LOL! Show me title and issue where Talia destroyed Bludhaven. Jason Todd already hated Batman. I hardly think that he would need anyone to sick him on Bruce.



I don't think anyone will lose sleap over whether or not this remains in continuity or not, least of all Morrison.

No I don't think that anyone would loose sleep, I haven't seen anyone here posting that they've lost sleep. But I've seen plenty here annoyed by the poorly thought out story, and being fooled into believing that one story was a tie in from another. When it has nothing to do with it.



Shaking with rage? He really should not be working in the comic book industry if that's his likely reaction.

Guess so, especially when the industry is permeated with sloppy, lazy who don't do any research like Grant Morisson.;)

[Sean Whitmore]

Morisson's story implies that he never did. That it was merely one of him having sex with her while drugged.

Morrison's story implies no such thing. Batman was beaten to hell and held down while Talia gloated. Of course he's gonna verbally attack her.


LOL! Show me title and issue where Talia destroyed Bludhaven.

She acted in concert. It's exactly as bad.


SEAN

[Apathy Boy]

And to think that it's SOD that taken out of continuity. Mike Barr must be shaking with rage.Mike Barr is a professional writer. I'm sure he knew that doing work-for-hire writing for a commercially owned character meant something like this could happen down the line. If anything, he's probably happy Morrison did this, because now Barr gets to collect a royalty cheque for the recent re-printing of SON OF THE DEMON. Writers do it for the money, folks.

Anyway, I don't think Morrison is under any obligation to "do his homework" on a story that was written 20 years ago... and was written out of continuity more than 10 years ago... and was never referenced in another comic book even when it was in continuity. Especially since Morrison started writing the story hot on the heels of an event that essentially wipes the history of the DCU clean wherever the author sees fit.

[carabas]

Exactly. That scene shows Talia has turned on Batman. But Batman did not turn on Talia and shows that he has feelings for her. Morisson's story implies that he never did. That it was merely one of him having sex with her while drugged.

No, he didn't turn onTalia in D&TM. Of course, that was before Talia became a founding member of The Society, and went from somewhat ambiguous figure to one of the vilest villains in the DCU.

No because, as has been mentioned several times. It cancels out years and years of storytelling. Talia did not have feelings for Batman and he for her. And that their paths have never crossed since. In Batman 656, Talia says to Batman "Ra's Al Ghul is dead. This is my very own magnum opus." Well duh! Batman already knew that from DATM.

*sigh*
It also wasn't mentioned in Batman 656 that Brusce's paretns were murdered. Does that mean that that is out of continuity too now?
Just because something doesn't get referenced doesn't mean it's out of continuity.
And at the end of D&TM, Ra's Al Ghul was very much alive. It was just the previous bearer of the title that had been killed, by his successor.
Who has since been killed by Batgirl (probably to clear the path for the return of the old man, quite possibly under Morrison's pen).

Uh yes it is. It is part and parcel of comic book story telling. A comic book is relating a sustained narrative. And like I said above, if the story was 'no good to begin with' then why claim that it was an influence in the first place?

Comic book story-telling of the continuity-slaved variety, is not usually a good example of good writing.

LOL! Show me title and issue where Talia destroyed Bludhaven. Jason Todd already hated Batman. I hardly think that he would need anyone to sick him on Bruce.

Infinite Crisis #whatever.
Büdhaven was leveled by The Society. Talia is one of the leaders of The Society. And even if you want to wash her hands of that specific atrocity, she was most definitlty part of the assault on Metropolis that caused thousands of casualties.

That aside, lying about a miscariage is also rather big if more personal offense.
Woman whom you loved a couple of years ago but has since then changed a lot drops in and dumps a kid you thought dead andthat you mourned in your lap. you gonna chitchat about the good old days, or are you going to have a rather big fight?

Guess so, especially when the industry is permeated with sloppy, lazy who don't do any research like Grant Morisson.
It's only lazy when you think sticking to the old story was ever the goal.

GM: I was a huge fan of Mike Barr's Batman stories and well aware of the controversy surrounding Son of the Demon, so I thought it might be interesting to launch my run with a story guaranteed to raise some eyebrows. I also really liked the Ibn Al Xu'ffasch character from Kingdom Come (who was essentially the Son of the Demon baby all grown up) and felt that the notion of the bad son had a strong place in Batman lore and could be used to generate some interesting new stories.
The baby in this story is not the child from SOD or even Ibn Al Xu’ffasch, that child was given up after birth and adopted. Damien wasn’t.

Where exactly in that quote does Morrison even slightly indicate that he is going to stick exactly to those stories, rather than just use an idea or two from them?

[Mia]

Anyway, I don't think Morrison is under any obligation to "do his homework" on a story that was written 20 years ago... and was written out of continuity more than 10 years ago... and was never referenced in another comic book even when it was in continuity. Especially since Morrison started writing the story hot on the heels of an event that essentially wipes the history of the DCU clean wherever the author sees fit.


No he isn't. However it would be proffessionalism as opposed to hack work. Pity this is what the industry has turned into.

[The Mirrorball Man]

No he isn't. However it would be proffessionalism as opposed to hack work. Pity this is what the industry has turned into.
If you don't like that, there are many other fields where slavish adherence to the canon is considered more important than good writing. The Roman Catholic Church is one good example.

[carabas]

No he isn't. However it would be proffessionalism as opposed to hack work. Pity this is what the industry has turned into.

SotD was (and unles you can show we exactly where it says otherwise, still is) out of continuity.

'Batman and Son' is not a sequel to SotD. It just borrows a plot element from it. Whatever details in SotD were, they are completely and utterly irrelevant.

[Kid Omega]

No he isn't. However it would be proffessionalism as opposed to hack work. Pity this is what the industry has turned into.

Here's the problem: Your particular idea about what constitutes professional fiction writing has no relation whatsoever to reality. What you have decided constitutes "lazy" writing is not a standard in anyone's mind but your own. You keep calling this story "lazy" and "hack work" when in fact, I think it's a pretty well constructed story, with the occasional brilliant moment. You need to realize that those of us who don't care are not lowering our standards, we're just not judging things according to your starndards, which are frankly ridiculous.

So he tweaked the perosnality of a villain.... it doesn't matter. It happens all the time. The Penguin is a legit nightclub owner now, as opposed to a wanted gangster. Does that upset you? How about Catwoman? She's an entirely different character every ten years. The Joker went from being the Clown Prince of Crime to a serial killer. Is anyone saying that these changes are "lazy"?

None of this has anything to do with being lazy on the author's part.

People are saying that this "error" distracts them from the story. That's legitimate. Calling it "hack work" is entirely ridiculous. To me, "hack work" is usually found in some trite, contrived comic that is about reconciling continuity rather than telling a good story.

But that's apparently what you're looking for. You want a story, first and foremost, to service your need for continuity. Many people don't care about that, and in the history of fiction criticism, that has almost never superceded little things like plot, structure, pacing, etc... Your needs are meaningless in the end. They have nothing to do with telling a fun, well-built, three-act adventure yarn about a character whose history has been repeatedly tweaked for 70 years.

This is your hang up. Please don't pretend that it relegates an author's efforts to "hack work".

In the end, Batman having an extended love affair with the terrorist daughter if someone who has repeatedly tried to kill him is entirely fucking stupid. It makes no sense, and if Morrison wants to finagle their history so that it makes sense to him, as a writer, I say go for it. This story works for me, judged on it's own merits.

[kane]

Well how about writing good stories that are in continuity? I think a good writer can do both. A good story and continuity don´t contradict each other.

[Kid Omega]

Well how about writing good stories that are in continuity? I think a good writer can do both. A good story and continuity don´t contradict each other.

No they don't. And likewise, a good story that ignores elements of continuity is not automatically "hack work".

In the fifties, batman and Robin were fighting Martians and travelling in time. Ten years later, carmine Infantino was writing straight detective stories.

Continuity is an illusion. It exists to bolster good stories, when needed. but it is fleeting and fickle.

As long as Batman and Robin are crimefighters in Gotham city, most everything else is just baggage, and ultimately meaningless.

[kane]

No they don't. And likewise, a good story that ignores elements of continuity is not automatically "hack work".

In the fifties, batman and Robin were fighting Martians and travelling in time. Ten years later, carmine Infantino was writing straight detective stories.

Continuity is an illusion. It exists to bolster good stories, when needed. but it is fleeting and fickle.

As long as Batman and Robin are crimefighters in Gotham city, most everything else is just baggage, and ultimately meaningless.

The question is how do you define most everything else. You could say, Batman and Robin could also fight crime in New York.

[Kid Omega]

The question is how do you define most everything else. You could say, Batman and Robin could also fight crime in New York.

"Most everything else" is what isn't important to the central concept.

Ask an eight year old who Batman is. What he (or she) tells you? Those are the only details that matter.

[glennsim]

"Most everything else" is what isn't important to the central concept.

Ask an eight year old who Batman is. What he (or she) tells you? Those are the only details that matter.

Interesting. Personally, I prefer my entertainment to be slightly more complicated than what the average 8-year-old can retain in its entirety.

[Ed Cunard]

Interesting. Personally, I prefer my entertainment to be slightly more complicated than what the average 8-year-old can retain in its entirety.

Have you tried Ulysses?

[Matt Algren]

Interesting. Personally, I prefer my entertainment to be slightly more complicated than what the average 8-year-old can retain in its entirety.Because that's exactly what he was saying.

Oy.

[Kid Omega]

Interesting. Personally, I prefer my entertainment to be slightly more complicated than what the average 8-year-old can retain in its entirety.

Wow- way to entirely miss my point, and make a bizarrely metatextual commentary on the state of superhero comics.

Tremendous!

[Joe Rice]

Wow- way to entirely miss my point, and make a bizarrely metatextual commentary on the state of superhero comics.

Tremendous!

Yeah, that was a work of art.

[Tadhg]

I hate humanity.

[carabas]

"In it make him die"?

That's not even a sentence...

[Tadhg]

"In it make him die"?

That's not even a sentence...

It should have a comma, but it is a sentence.

[Damo]

Hnh.

After the second time I heard someone say that even if Talia did rape Bruce it would be no big change for her, I had to wonder if maybe I was confabulating a little. So I pulled out as many back issues with Talia as I could to see what I could find.

A black and white view on evil is incompatible with a good understanding of her character. She was designed to be nothing if not grey.

She shows up in 1971. During the 70s and 80s (Ra's is absent for most of the 80s, strangely enough) her role is fairly straightforward. She swings between loyalty to Batman and Ra's, helping her father escape here, slipping Batman an antidote there, torn between the two. What kinds of "evil" does she do? She gets kidnapped, she pretends to get kidnapped, she rescues Batman from a treacherous assassin that was about to finish Batman off, killing the guy in the process, she almost kills a man that she thought had killed Ra's, and her dad sends her off a few times when others villains had gotten ahold of of his doomsday weapons with an intent to use them for personal profit (vs. Ra's plans to "save the world"). 1987 gives us Son of the Demon, with Talia giving up her infant son because she sees the knoeldge of father hood throwing Bruce off his game, and she knows Bruce would give up the life he feels is so important in order to be with her and his child.

That brings us to the 1990s. Azrael, Contagion, Legacy, Bane of the Demon... more or less the same. She keeps on going along with Ra's for the most part, disobaying him here and there behind his back (like when she saved Azrael from Ra's' men). We do see something new when Ra's starts talking about having Bane as an heir though. Talia is not cool with that, and she says so. Open defiance.

So that brings us to 2000. Tower of Babel by Mark Waid. For the first time Ra's decides Talia should take an active part in one of his genocide plots, and she's not happy with it. "Only one target now remains. Then perhaps we can put this madness behind us." "Madness? Lady Talia, it is an honor to soldier under Ra's al Ghul's orders. Do you not wish to please him?" "There is no 'honor' is assassin's work... and, frankly, I tire of my father's manipulations. All I wish is peace for myself, and my beloved." She makes no bones about it, what she does to Batman is "betrayal", and she feels "shame" for it. She says as much to Ra's, to his shock, condemning him for ordering her "to corrupt and betray" her beloved's plans and intentions. And in the end she betrays Ra's far more than ever before, trying to scupper all his plans and alert the heroes. She ends up leaving him.

So then there's Hush, which has Batman and Talia a bit confused as to what exactly they are to one another these days.

Then comes along Death and the Maidens which certainly shakes things up. I'm normally a fan of Rucka's, but I can't say I cared for this. Still, Talia is tortured and traumatized beyond belief by Nyssa, right up until she breaks and then a little bit more for good measure. Nyssa convinces Talia that killing Ra's is just freeing him from the pain he must be in after so many deaths, and convinces her that Batman is their enemy. Oh, and Ra's nearly kills her.

So then she appears in the Society. My initial reaction was "WTF?!?" It was like... oh I dunno... someone in charge had this idea about putting a bunch of well known villains together and din't much care about characterization. But there's no one like that at DC... Still, as weird as it was for Talia to be working with these guys, and as weird as it was for her to be the one on the Society an not her more dominant sister Nyssa, we did get an explanation. Here's Nyssa, apparently still in charge of her sister, explaining the plan in Batgirl: "Vast stockpiles of food rot, while people starve. Millions die from curable diseases, while drug companies rake in the billions. Our environment chokes on our waste, becoming so toxic that life fails. It's genocide by greed, apathy, and neglect. These are the real crimes. Something must change. The Society's plans are vast... they will succeed. I can't stop them. When the world gets a true taste of violent oppression, and their heroes lie dead and broken -- apathy will die. That's when you'll lead my league to sanction key society members. Leaving Talia and I to lead the revolution. A new world will be born, one of peace and equality. Millions of lives will be saved." (Honestly her predicted number of saved lives is astonishingly low. If her plan really did succeed we'd be talking billions of lives saved, not mere millions). Mass destruction to unify the world in peace. Adrian Veidt would have approved.

So you have Talia giving up her father's plans to wipe out mankind and save the environment, instead embracing her sister's plans to stun mankind into cleaning up its act. And yes, she's working with the people in the Society, planning on killing the bastards in charge and uniting the world in peace and equality. And yes, she's been brainwashed by her sister to think Batman is an enemy.

So next up is Morrison. Should he have stuck to what was told in Son of the Demon? Eh, I don't mind if he didn't, provided I get a good story with consistent characterization. It would be nice, what with the dang thing being released at the same time as this arc (that "20 year old" argument loses a little weight with the thing being reprinted to coincide with Morrison's story, but whatever). But hey, whatever. I do expect a few things though. I don't expect Batman to start accusing her of rape. She's done some bad things, but she's always had a twisted sense of honor, and up until her brainwashing in Death and Maidens she consistently betrayed Ra's to try and help him. That was just total left field, and her bland response was as good as admitting it. Gloating? Yeah, with the brainwashing you probably could argue that she's been turned so evil that she gloats at the downfall of her former love. Is she calling him beloved now to mock him? What? Death and Maidens had her saying he was beloved no more, convinced that he was out to hurt her sister. Her sister who's now dead. And Batman says she's carrying on Ra's goals, not Nyssa's, despite the fact that she's been carrying out Nyssa's plans since Maidens. Maybe Morrisson shouldn't have to get things right from a story 20 years old, But how about keeping track of the fact that she was brainwashed into following Nyssa's insane plans for saving as many lives as possible through use of force, instead of following Ra's' plans to eradicate as much of mankind as possible?

And she shrugs off accusations of rape from the man she loved. Yeah, Nyssa brainwashed her, so she thinks he's out to destroy he, so maybe she doesn't mind being called a rapist by the man she once loved. Maybe. Although since she was still, even while working with the Society, meant to be someone doing horrible things for noble goals, and still had a twisted sense of honor, I reckon it was grossly out of character for her to not be outraged at that accusation. But hey, brainwashing, retcon punch, whatever. You can come up with explanations that work in universe. I still say it's horrible characterization, and a waste of potential. There's so much more you could do with her without turning her into a pale shadow of her father.

So yeah, talk about how he shouldn't be bound to 20 year stories. I'd be happy if he researched her more recent ones, and wrote her in a way I feel matches the last 30 years of characterization. I'm not buying the Talia that would have let her kid be raised by the League of Assassins (something that would have had to take place before the whole brainwashing escapde), would have a kid that turns out to be such a monster, or that would hand her kid over to Batman, calling him beloved, while not minding being accused of rape. Either the brainwashing is in place and she hates his guts, or else he's her beloved. Trying to do both at once feels completely wrong to me. Is she still following Nyssa's goals, or back to Ra's? Does she love Batman again, or hate him still? I can't tell what's meant to be going on with her any more. Getting the details wrong from a 20 year old story is one thing. But I do expect enough research into a major character that's undergoing a big change that I'm not going "hold the phone, what's going on? This feels completely wrong."

Really the problem is that without Ra's someone needs to be in charge of the Demon, and nobody could be bothered to use Nyssa. So Talia's had a goatee and black hat slapped on her, as if one al Ghul is as good as another.

[Mia]

A good story and continuity don´t contradict each other.

Bravo and well said!

[literally exaggerated]

a good story and continuity don´t contradict each other.

Correction: a good story and continuity don't necessarily contradict each other.

That most certainly does not mean they can't. And if I can only have one, I'd MUCH rather have the good story. Continuity can be nice, but not as a straightjacket.

My biggest problem with comic fandom is their treatment of characters and continuity. Specifically, they are violently opposed to any sort of dramatic alterations to the status quo. You see this most clearly with deaths. Kill any character, especially if its in a way that doesn't give them some huge, melodramatic "last hurrah" type moment, and there is a tremendous outcry.

Another poster here once said it best, "Comic fans don't want good stories. They want imaginary friends that exist in perpetuity, unchanging and doing their thing forever and ever."

Thats a gross generalization, but I do think there's an element of truth to that. A huge number of fans place characters over story.

My stance is, and always has been, who cares about ANYTHING except whether a story is good?

The best works of art, in comics or elsewhere, have never been afraid to make changes, to do things that have an impact. Characters die, they change. Sometimes they get better, sometimes they get worse.

If instead of Morrison making Talia much more evil, he had made her much more good, I GUARANTEE you there would be no outcry. If she showed up, and was a 100% sympathetic, pure ally to Bruce and completely loving and devoted mother to her son, that would be totally fine. Never mind that that interpretation would ignore her past evil actions just as much as the current one ignores her past good ones.

Because fans aren't pissed that the story is bad. They're pissed that their imaginary friend Talia isn't acting like the friend they knew and loved.

[Mia]

Correction: a good story and continuity don't necessarily contradict each other.

That most certainly does not mean they can't. And if I can only have one, I'd MUCH rather have the good story. Continuity can be nice, but not as a straightjacket.



My biggest problem with comic fandom is their treatment of characters and continuity. Specifically, they are violently opposed to any sort of dramatic alterations to the status quo. You see this most clearly with deaths. Kill any character, especially if its in a way that doesn't give them some huge, melodramatic "last hurrah" type moment, and there is a tremendous outcry.



There's a huge difference between comic book fans not wanting something changed and wanting something to remain in continuity. Changes happen in comic books all the time. But a good writer will account for that change. For example when Jean-Valley played the role of Batman, that was a change. But comic book readers saw how that came to be. Jean Valley wasn't suddenly Batman and Bruce Wayne was never Batman to begin with.







Another poster here once said it best, "Comic fans don't want good stories. They want imaginary friends that exist in perpetuity, unchanging and doing their thing forever and ever."

Thats a gross generalization, but I do think there's an element of truth to that. A huge number of fans place characters over story.

Actually I agree, I think that it is the love that people have for characters that keeps them coming back month after month. Especially with the shoddy, boring and lackluster stories that are printed in most books. I'm sure that if most comic book readers were simply interested in a good story. Then they would stick to reading novels.




My stance is, and always has been, who cares about ANYTHING except whether a story is good? .

Exactly if a story is good. But part of good comic book story telling is to acknowlege that the story taking place is part and parcel of stories that came before it. That does not mean that a re-cap is needed for each story that came before it. But a story should acknowledge the impact of other stories or the influence that previous stories had on a particular character. For example Bruce Wayne is saddened by the death of his parents. Then it's silly and out of character and continuity to now show stories of him rejoicing because of it.






If instead of Morrison making Talia much more evil, he had made her much more good, I GUARANTEE you there would be no outcry. If she showed up, and was a 100% sympathetic, pure ally to Bruce and completely loving and devoted mother to her son, that would be totally fine. Never mind that that interpretation would ignore her past evil actions just as much as the current one ignores her past good ones.

That's not true.

Gail Simone has used Talia as a villain in two recent issues of Birds of Prey (not to mention Villains United) And she was pure evil. And there was certainly no 'outcry' from fans there because of the portrayal. I liked the portrayal. I liked it a lot. And I am not a big fan of the author. But I was tremendously impressed with the way in which she wrote Talia. Cunning, shrewd and ruthless And brilliant. She wasn’t merely the one dimensional spiteful shrew that Morrison reduced her to in this story.





Because fans aren't pissed that the story is bad. They're pissed that their imaginary friend Talia isn't acting like the friend they knew and loved.

No fans are just pissed because the author didn’t do his research, wrote people out of character in order to suit his story, and downright sloppy and lazy writing.

[Kid Omega]

Exactly if a story is good. But part of good comic book story telling is to acknowlege that the story taking place is part and parcel of stories that came before it.

Says you. And there are plenty of people disagreeing.

[Damo]

Because fans aren't pissed that the story is bad. They're pissed that their imaginary friend Talia isn't acting like the friend they knew and loved.

I disagree with your reasoning, and honestly take a little offense that you would presume me to be so childish. My bookshelf and video collection have no shortage of examples of friends becoming enemies. It's an idea that's been around a long time, and if written well can be quite powerful. And then there's "Alfred the Butler becomes the villainous Outsider!" and "Leslie Thompson: Child Killer!" You want to turn someone bad, it has to be a logical progression, it has to flow from their characterization.

Besides, we aren't talking about a good guy becoming a bad guy. We're talking about a complex character that resisted easily being classified as good or evil being made into a less complex character that raises her kid to be a terror and has no apparent sense of honor. Since when is a loss of complexity a good thing?

Frankly I'm pissed because I think the story is bad. Now, I'm a big Morrisson fan. Animal Man? Big Dave? Yep, I've got 'em. Heck, I even enjoyed Really and Truly (but hated Aztek and Skrull Kill Krew, so there you go). Suffice to say I expected a lot better of him. His ninja man bats were nifty, his Batman good (except for with Talia). I didn't like his Robin, Bruce Wayne, or Talia... and I hate Damian, although I'm probably meant to, so the jury's still out on how he handles the runt. Still, I am not enjoying this story so far.

Correction: a good story and continuity don't necessarily contradict each other.

...and? Listen, I'm not going to say that there aren't examples where a slavish devotion to continuity has straightjacketed what could have been a good story. I am, however, going to say that in this case that argument isn't relevant. Would it have been impossible to keep Talia in character and still get this story? Hardly, it would have been easy as pie. Cut out the accusations of rape, say that Damian was taken by Ra's from the good family she left the kid with, and raised by assassins without her knowledge until she ended up taking over The Demon. Presto you've basically got the same story without the character assassination that's got some folks annoyed. I've heard people annoyed at Talia's characterization, and I've heard people defending Morrison for loose continuity. What I haven't heard so far is anyone saying that bitch-queen Talia is an improvement over what there was before. So I'm not buying lines like "he needed to be unbound by continuity" or "people are just upset that she's changed", because I'm not seeing anyone going on about how happy they are regarding this change. You can say that he needed to ignore past characterization of Talia to tell a good story when there are as many people saying how great it is that she's being presented in this way as there are people saying it stinks. I've heard a lot of people defending his interpretation of Talia. Not much in terms of praising it.

If instead of Morrison making Talia much more evil, he had made her much more good, I GUARANTEE you there would be no outcry. If she showed up, and was a 100% sympathetic, pure ally to Bruce and completely loving and devoted mother to her son, that would be totally fine. Never mind that that interpretation would ignore her past evil actions just as much as the current one ignores her past good ones.

I find that hard to believe. In this thread there are people saying what a horrible person she is for working with the Society, and how rape wouldn' t be much of a leap for her. I don't see those people being happy with Batman turning a blind eye to her past actions in light of her being a mama. The sad fact of the matter is, we are judged more by the evil we do than the good. Someone tried to tell me the other day about how Green Arrow and Black Canary should get together again. "Sure he cheated on her once, but what about all the times he didn't?" That kinda line doesn't fly. You do something bad, it sticks out in people's memories a lot more than all the good things you've done. Just ask Hank Pym.


Because fans aren't pissed that the story is bad. They're pissed that their imaginary friend Talia isn't acting like the friend they knew and loved.

This fan says you're wrong. I have no problem with friends becoming enemies provided it's consistent with their characterization. Right now one of my favorite shows has one of my favorite characters turning into a villain, and it's completely in keeping with his personality and motivations. It's horrible, but it's making for a great story. I'm not seeing how Talia's poor characterization is in any way responsible for the things people are enjoying in this story.

[Harding Prime]

Exactly. That scene shows Talia has turned on Batman. But Batman did not turn on Talia and shows that he has feelings for her. Morisson's story implies that he never did. That it was merely one of him having sex with her while drugged.

Seems to me that you are just picking out your on "implications" to harbor your distaste for Morrison as a writer. I don't think Morrison implies that never felt anything for Talia. He more sounds like a former lover jaded by someone who turned their back on them. You ever felt anamosity towards an Ex???

[Kid Omega]

(cross-posted from the Comm Board)

Here's a bottom line on my end, that often has little to do with quality: sales.

This new Batman story is the subject of much contention on the bat-forum, and you might think it was a real controversy that had people everywhere talking. On the sales floor, it is the best-selling Batman monthly I have ever seen.

People can bitch all they want about Morrison writing Talia out of character and being "lazy", but he's delivering the numbers, and the numbers go up with each issue. Which goes back to the disconnect between the Internerd and reality. The sturm and drang we see online is a) almost never ever a point of conversation in the shops I've worked in, and b) does not affect sales in any way.

Our best-selling book last summer was FUN HOME, which has rarely (if ever) been mentioned on these boards by anyone but myself. Our best-selling superhero monthly is ALL STAR SUPERMAN, which is gleefully "out of continuity".

And as much as people bitch about CIVIL WAR online, it sells like candy and has increased sales on every single book it touches!

So when people complain about the Morrison book, all i can think is "it sure doesn't read like 'lazy' writing to me" and "damn, that book sells like f#@king hotcakes!"

It's really only "unprofessional" if you hold Son of The Demon up as something sacred, or feel that any story ever written should be treated as important canonical works to be researched and studied and sweated over. But some of us see "professional" as simply meaning crafting a well-told, well-structured story that follows the basic working concept of the character.

In the end BATMAN AND SON is a fun romp with a vague nod to an older story. And big piles of people are buying it and enjoying it.

[Damo]

It's really only "unprofessional" if you hold Son of The Demon up as something sacred,


You keep saying things like that. And I'm saying back at you, no, I don't think Son of the Demon is sacred, and if he wanted to change that, okay. He probably should have read it since it's being rereleased at the same time, but yeah, okay. Whatever. Meanwhile with the depiction of Talia, like I said, I'd be happy if she felt in line with her more recent appearences, and was writen her in a way I feel matches the last 30 years of characterization. Most recently she was in full Batman-hating mode, following Nyssa's plans to save mankind by shocking the world into taking action. Here we've got her acting horrible to him while calling him beloved, we've got her apparently knowing all along that her kid was being raised to be a monster, something that's out of character for Talia before and after Death and Maidens, and shrugging off accusations of rape as if she has neither pride nor honor. Batman's accusation is left field too. In Tower of Babel she utterly betrayed Ra's for him, in Hush they were uncomfortable but not hostile, in Death and Maidens she'd been brainwashed into thinking him an enemy, and now he's accusing her of rape? Maybe he's in denial because of her involvement with the Society, but this doesn't flow comfortably, and her personality seems to be a hodgepodge without any work done to find out why she turned against Ra's and Batman. Does she still believe he's always been her enemy, like Nyssa wanted her to think? Does she love him, or still hate him? Is she following Ra's' dreams of Nyssa's? I can't tell what's meant to be going on with her any more. Getting the details wrong from a 20 year old story is one thing. But I have no idea what's meant to be going on with her any more.


And if sales are what matters then stuff like Liefeld's Youngblood and Miller's All Star Batman and Robin are pure genius.

[Kid Omega]

And if sales are what matters then stuff like Liefeld's Youngblood and Miller's All Star Batman and Robin are pure genius.

I guess you missed this part of my post:
Here's a bottom line on my end, that often has little to do with quality: sales.

[Kid Omega]

You keep saying things like that. And I'm saying back at you, no, I don't think Son of the Demon is sacred, and if he wanted to change that, okay. He probably should have read it since it's being rereleased at the same time, but yeah, okay. Whatever. QUOTE]

Some people in this thread are taking it far more seriously than you are.

[QUOTE=Damo]But I have no idea what's meant to be going on with her any more.


She's the daughter of the villain Ra's Al Ghul, she is a jilted lover of Batman, and seems homicidal. She also left what may or may not be their son with our protagonist. Seems easy enough.

[The Shadow]

On the sales floor, it is the best-selling Batman monthly I have ever seen.
Nah... you just never paid attention to sales much before (I'm guessing anyway) or are talking from a perspective where you know someone who owns a store. Because any Joker appearance after the first movie in 1989 sold more issues that Morrison's Batman. A Death in the Family sold more and so on.

It MIGHT be the best selling Batman this decade though... but how is it comparing with Lee's Hush?

[Damo]

You keep saying things like that. And I'm saying back at you, no, I don't think Son of the Demon is sacred, and if he wanted to change that, okay. He probably should have read it since it's being rereleased at the same time, but yeah, okay. Whatever.

Some people in this thread are taking it far more seriously than you are.



No, I don't think so. I've read the posts. I think the others agree with me, but we're saying things differently, emphasising our beliefs differently in our posts, and have maybe have a few degrees worth of difference in our opinions. "Broad Strokes" can be enough right? If he can tell a good tale that doesn't have fans of the character going "that's just entirely wrong" then I suspect we'd have been okay. If he flubbed some details in a way that didn't make much of a difference to the character I don't see the thread getting to 200+ posts.

There's plenty of good stories where writers play it loose with the continuity. I think pretty much everyone that's been criticizing him in this htread will agree that sometimes someone that made mistakes because they were working from recollection turned out damn good irregardless. Here I don't think he had a good enough grasp of the character to be writing the story. Whether he read SOD, or Fables, or Daughter of the Demon, whatever, I think he needed to refresh his memory of what this character was like years ago, since a big part of it hinges on things she would have done before Death and Maidens. She underwent a major personality overhaul a few years back, so you need a grasp of what she was like before the trauma and brainwashing. And I'm also not picking up that he knows what the character's been up to lately.


She's the daughter of the villain Ra's Al Ghul, she is a jilted lover of Batman, and seems homicidal. She also left what may or may not be their son with our protagonist. Seems easy enough.

That's a terrible summary of her character, I'm sorry. That's the kind of summary Didio gave for what's going on with Cassandra Cain. "Hey, she's the daughter of two assassins!" Seems easy enough.

She's the daughter of the villain Ra's al Ghul. She also often disagreed with him, and ended up ultimately betraying him because she saw no honor in how he was conducting his affairs.

She's also the sister of Nyssa al Ghul, who had very different ideas from Ra's, and she was following Nyssa's plans until (from her perspective) probably just the other day.

She's a jilted lover of Batman? Jilt, to cast aside unfeelingly? Back in the day she knew why she couldn't be with Batman, although she still tried. Right up until Death and the Maidens she neved stopped loving him, and he never stopped loving her, but their lives were just too complicated for it to work. She stopped being in love after Nyssa brainwashed her into thinking Batman was her enemy. When she was in love with him there was no "jilted" aspect, and when she was brainwashed into thinking he was out to get her there was no "love" any more. So if we're working from that part then she shouldn't be leaving her kid with our protagonist or calling him beloved.

As for "she seems homicidal," in the past she was willing to kill to save Batman, or her father, or to kill her father's murderer when she thought he was dead. The one time her father asked her to go out and attack people for him she was so ashamed she left him. She was convinced by Nyssa to think of Batman as an enemy, and to try and kill Ra's to spare him the pain of more deaths. She worked with the Society with the plan of saving more lives than she took, and of killing the homicidal people in charge. This new take on why she would be "homicidal" at the moment feels incomplete.

[Harding Prime]

No, I don't think so. I've read the posts. I think the others agree with me, but we're saying things differently, emphasising our beliefs differently in our posts, and have maybe have a few degrees worth of difference in our opinions. "Broad Strokes" can be enough right? If he can tell a good tale that doesn't have fans of the character going "that's just entirely wrong" then I suspect we'd have been okay. If he flubbed some details in a way that didn't make much of a difference to the character I don't see the thread getting to 200+ posts.

There's plenty of good stories where writers play it loose with the continuity. I think pretty much everyone that's been criticizing him in this htread will agree that sometimes someone that made mistakes because they were working from recollection turned out damn good irregardless. Here I don't think he had a good enough grasp of the character to be writing the story. Whether he read SOD, or Fables, or Daughter of the Demon, whatever, I think he needed to refresh his memory of what this character was like years ago, since a big part of it hinges on things she would have done before Death and Maidens. She underwent a major personality overhaul a few years back, so you need a grasp of what she was like before the trauma and brainwashing. And I'm also not picking up that he knows what the character's been up to lately.

That's a terrible summary of her character, I'm sorry. That's the kind of summary Didio gave for what's going on with Cassandra Cain. "Hey, she's the daughter of two assassins!" Seems easy enough.

She's the daughter of the villain Ra's al Ghul. She also often disagreed with him, and ended up ultimately betraying him because she saw no honor in how he was conducting his affairs.

She's also the sister of Nyssa al Ghul, who had very different ideas from Ra's, and she was following Nyssa's plans until (from her perspective) probably just the other day.

She's a jilted lover of Batman? Jilt, to cast aside unfeelingly? Back in the day she knew why she couldn't be with Batman, although she still tried. Right up until Death and the Maidens she neved stopped loving him, and he never stopped loving her, but their lives were just too complicated for it to work. She stopped being in love after Nyssa brainwashed her into thinking Batman was her enemy. When she was in love with him there was no "jilted" aspect, and when she was brainwashed into thinking he was out to get her there was no "love" any more. So if we're working from that part then she shouldn't be leaving her kid with our protagonist or calling him beloved.

As for "she seems homicidal," in the past she was willing to kill to save Batman, or her father, or to kill her father's murderer when she thought he was dead. The one time her father asked her to go out and attack people for him she was so ashamed she left him. She was convinced by Nyssa to think of Batman as an enemy, and to try and kill Ra's to spare him the pain of more deaths. She worked with the Society with the plan of saving more lives than she took, and of killing the homicidal people in charge. This new take on why she would be "homicidal" at the moment feels incomplete.

It seems more like Batman is the jilted lover (see picture in thread for proof).
and you seem to be more of a fan of Talia then Bruce. Talia, in that black and white way, is, will, and always has been above all else, a batman villian. It is where you will find her in DCU Encyclopedia. Same as Catwoman, after everything the characters have been through together, do u not think they could be at each others throat the next time they crossed paths...yes. Talia and Catwoman both have a little crazy in their backgrounds, but Talia has Villainous tendencies in her DNA.

Nature over Nuture, Nature always wins. (c) Christopher Walken


I don't think it has been a bad portrayal of Talia, but I'm going to read DNA one more time and get back to you.

P.S. - Some one take Cass out of her misery...

[Damo]

It seems more like Batman is the jilted lover (see picture in thread for proof).

...okay? I don't see what you're saying here.

and you seem to be more of a fan of Talia then Bruce.

Oh. Well... um... I'm not? Yay Bruce?

Talia, in that black and white way, is, will, and always has been above all else, a batman villian. It is where you will find her in DCU Encyclopedia. Same as Catwoman, after everything the characters have been through together, do u not think they could be at each others throat the next time they crossed paths...yes.

I disagree vehemently (and does the DCU Encycopedia really list Catwoman as a villain? Wow. Weird). Like I said before, that "black and white" view on evil is incompatible withunderstanding her character. If you can't understand that a character can resist being classified as either one you will never understand her. She definitely took a more villainous turn after Death and Maidens (although she still continued to do good, leaking Luthor's secrets to Superman and selling Lexcorp's assets to the Wayne Foundation), but for the vast majority of her history she was there beside Ra's, with her loyalty to him being her flaw, but she consistently gave aid to the heroes too. The best analogy I can think of is that cliche of the honorable and noble samurai faithfully serving a wicked lord out of loyalty. Do I think they would be at one another's throats after recent events? Not like this. Not with such horrible characterization, no. Certainly not with indications that she was always so evil. I'd find it a stretch if this entirely reflected on what sort of person she is now, but this also reflects on what sort of person she was before Nyssa's brainwashing.


Talia and Catwoman both have a little crazy in their backgrounds, but Talia has Villainous tendencies in her DNA.

Oh dear. Cassandra Cain is screwed. There's a villainy gene.



Nature over Nuture, Nature always wins. (c) Christopher Walken


I hate quotations. Tell me what you know (c) Ralph Waldo Emerson



I don't think it has been a bad portrayal of Talia, but I'm going to read DNA one more time and get back to you.


DNA?

[Harding Prime]

...okay? I don't see what you're saying here.
Really? In my copy, that encounter ends this way:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Talia1.jpg


That......

[Harding Prime]

Oh. Well... um... I'm not? Yay Bruce?

Obviously anyone that has read your post here or in any other thread know that you seem much more partial to female characters...sarcasm aside.



I disagree vehemently (and does the DCU Encycopedia really list Catwoman as a villain? Wow. Weird). Like I said before, that "black and white" view on evil is incompatible withunderstanding her character. If you can't understand that a character can resist being classified as either one you will never understand her.

What I am understanding right now and pretty much most of the storylines I have read with her in them....Hush...SOD...death, madiens...and now SOTB, she's been a pretty brutal Beeyotch.



Oh dear. Cassandra Cain is screwed. There's a villainy gene.

That seems to be how it works in DC Universe...Keep on killing Cass!




I hate quotations. Tell me what you know (c) Ralph Waldo Emerson

If anyone quotes Christopher Walken, I'm pretty sure it's joke. And thanks for quoting a pansy.



DNA? Sorry, I meant SOD.:eek:

[Damo]

That......

Yes, I understood that you meant that picture. What I'm not seeing its relevance to what I was talking about. I guess he... might be feeling rejected? I'm more inclined to think his reaction would be "well, that sure came out of nowhere". I'm finding it a leap that after the woman he loves and who loved him back point a gun at him and yell at him for no apparent reason, that he would then start remembering her as a rapist.


Obviously anyone that has read your post here or in any other thread know that you seem much more partial to female characters...sarcasm aside.

Do you want me to do my Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger are back and kicking butt like they should dance?

*Does so.*

If it seems that way maybe I'm just upset that a few of my favorite female characters have recently gotten the shaft. And as for guy characters I like that have gotten the shaft... I'm just so tired of talking about what happened to the guys. Booster Gold and Blue Beetle deserved better, end of story. After a while you just become numb to seeing the Giffen League killed and/or dragged through the mud.

Do a search for my Richard Dragon posts though. I've gone on about him at length. And man am I happy now that Dixon's retcon seems to be gone.



What I am understanding right now and pretty much most of the storylines I have read with her in them....Hush...SOD...death, madiens...and now SOTB, she's been a pretty brutal Beeyotch.

I mean no offence when I say this, but that's a terrible sampling of stories and precisely what I meant when I said you needed to look at the older stories if you wanted to get to know her character. 30 years of stories and you're mostly going by her characterization following a major change in her character two years ago (and a cameo in Hush). There is virtually no way you could hope to know what she was like before Nyssa's brainwashing with that reading list.


And thanks for quoting a pansy.


I had a Chuck Norris one too, but it kept crashing my browser as I typed it. It was that bad ass.

Sorry, I meant SOD.:eek:

It's a start. But the majority of her appearances were before Death and Maidens. So really to be a judge on how her past actions should be portrayed, you might want to look at a few other old stories. Tower of Babel, the Fables crossover... heck, Batman the Animated Series had a good handle on her pre Maidens personality.

[Harding Prime]

But we are not talking about older stories, we are talking about the here and the now, and as of late, or the past decade, she has been a wench. I'm not going to look back because there really is no reason, she is what she is now and has been for a while, so that isn't really Grant's doing. He takes what he likes of certain characters, that have already been established, like most writers, and puts it out in his own way. If Batman is tired of being treated like *ish over and over by Talia, maybe he doesn't even know how he could have ever had feelings for her. What happened between them must have been a mistake...or worse.

[Damo]

But we are not talking about older stories, we are talking about the here and the now, and as of late, or the past decade, she has been a wench.

No, we're talking about context. This story is heavily built around things meant to happen in the past, and if you don't know the history of Talia and Bruce you miss pretty much all the significance of those stories you read. Just like Jason Todd's becoming Red Hood, or Cassandra Cain turning evil, the last few years of Talia's stories are built around what there was before the change.


And I'm afraid those stories you listed are not how she's been written for the "last decade". Hush came out in 2002, Death and Maidens in 2003. If you actually want to see how she's been portrayed for the last decade add things like Tower of Babel, Azrael, Legacy and Bane of the Demon to your reading list.

m not going to look back because there really is no reason, she is what she is now and has been for a while, so that isn't really Grant's doing.

So I guess if you wanted to write Nightwing, and wanted to have part of your story be based on things he did as Robin, I guess all you need to do is read Devin Grayson's run, huh?

[Harding Prime]

No, we're talking about context. This story is heavily built around things meant to happen in the past, and if you don't know the history of Talia and Bruce you miss pretty much all the significance of those stories you read. And yet, if you did that to every character ever written, went through their history, you would run into a contridiction for every character ever written. Dealing with 10, 20, 70 years of a character that doesn't exist in the real world, your going to run into contridictions. People are going to see meanings taken differently, and creators are going to take what one character did differently then a reader, but guess what, they got the pen.

To lay out my opinion, not the best story because I don't like kids, but Talia seems to fit what I know of the character over the past many years. Talia is no Selina Kyle when it comes to Bruce's affection.

So I guess if you wanted to write Nightwing, and wanted to have part of your story be based on things he did as Robin, I guess all you need to do is read Devin Grayson's run, huh?

I guess so...but I'm not writing it.

[Matt Algren]

So I guess if you wanted to write Nightwing, and wanted to have part of your story be based on things he did as Robin, I guess all you need to do is read Devin Grayson's run, huh?More to the point, it wouldn't bother me in the least if some writer in 2036 decided that ignoring or contradicting Devin Grayson's run would be worth the story that came from it.

In fact, I'd rather prefer it if someone did that earlier than that. Like next month, for example.

[Damo]

And yet, if you did that to every character ever written, went through their history, you would run into a contridiction for every character ever written. Dealing with 10, 20, 70 years of a character that doesn't exist in the real world, your going to run into contridictions. People are going to see meanings taken differently, and creators are going to take what one character did differently then a reader, but guess what, they got the pen.

A minute ago the current characterization was okay because you said it had been there for the last decade. But now knowing about the, what, 6 stories she's had over the last 10 years is too much work for a writer? Sorry, while I'm fine giving some leeway with continuity, I expect a writer to know the "big picture" of 91.4% of the character's appearances over the years, not base his or her understanding on the most recent 8.9% (that's quickly calculated from her time after Death and Maidens as it relates to her total time in print).

You don't need to read the last 10 or 20 years of Batman stories to write a good Batman tale. For one thing, there's plenty of new appearances of him every month, and, with some notable differences, he's not gone through any huge changes in character over the last few years that would make the Batman of 10 years ago a virtual stranger. A character like Talia has actually fewer appearances, although most are a good few years old, and she has undergone a massive change very recently. You want to write a major character and get her right, and she's been in something like 6 stories (usually as a supporting character) for the last ten years, and a quick google search can tell you she underwent a big change in personality recently, then yeah, you really might want to find out what she's like in those stories. It shouldn't take long, and you'll have gotten to know the character.


Talia is no Selina Kyle when it comes to Bruce's affection.

Yup. She's probably come closer to making Bruce give it all up to live with her, for one thing.


So I guess if you wanted to write Nightwing, and wanted to have part of your story be based on things he did as Robin, I guess all you need to do is read Devin Grayson's run, huh?

I guess so...

:eek:

More to the point, it wouldn't bother me in the least if some writer in 2036 decided that ignoring or contradicting Devin Grayson's run would be worth the story that came from it.

So if I understand you correctly, you think it's more important to have a good understanding of how Nightwing's been presented for most of his appearances, and would object to someone writing him basically based on how he's been presented for the last 4 years (Devin having taken over Nightwing in 2002... and Death and Maidens having come out in 2003, giving us the more evil Talia).

[Matt Algren]

So if I understand you correctly, you think it's more important to have a good understanding of how Nightwing's been presented for most of his appearances, and would object to someone writing him basically based on how he's been presented for the last 4 years (Devin having taken over Nightwing in 2002... and Death and Maidens having come out in 2003, giving us the more evil Talia).No, it's more important that a good story be told, even if it contradicts a little piece of the backstory.

[Damo]

No, it's more important that a good story be told, even if it contradicts a little piece of the backstory.

Hm. See, I'm not getting how a major character's personality as it was depicted for 91% of the years the character has been around is a "little piece of the backstory".

But okay, let's say there's a writer you trust. Grant, maybe. And he's about to write a big story in Nightwing, with some pretty significant changes in Dick, and revelations about Dick's past. Involving a son, or a sibling, or something. And he seems to be mostly basing this, even the revelations about things that happened in the past, on Dick's characterization during Devin's run.

Be honest, how would you feel about hearing that?

[Kid Omega]

Hm. See, I'm not getting how a major character's personality as it was depicted for 91% of the years the character has been around is a "little piece of the backstory".

But okay, let's say there's a writer you trust. Grant, maybe. And he's about to write a big story in Nightwing, with some pretty significant changes in Dick, and revelations about Dick's past. Involving a son, or a sibling, or something. And he seems to be mostly basing this, even the revelations about things that happened in the past, on Dick's characterization during Devin's run.

Be honest, how would you feel about hearing that?

You're ignoring the "as long as it's a good story" part.

[Damo]

You're ignoring the "as long as it's a good story" part.

Not at all. I said it's Grant Morrison writing it. Don't you trust Grant Morrison to write a good Nightwing story, including major changes to the character, and the appearance of a long lost sibling or son or something, based on the charactrization Nightwing's gotten the last few years? He can even have something new and cool, like the ninja man bats but obviously something we haven't heard of before, in it. I'm positive that people coming in only knowing Nightwing from the last few years, reading this hypothetical story without older stories, would say it's a good one. And if continuity is an illusion, retcon punch, he's got lots of freedom to have a younger Dick be anything he wants. Maybe Dick used to be a real asshole. I bet Grant could write a good story about a young Robin the boy wonder that's a jerk and fathered a kid, and eventually Robin became the depressed Nightwing that seems to fail a lot from Devin's run, and he undergoes serious personality changes after meeting the kid he fathered. Or something like that. Grant's no slouch at writing, he could make something like that great, provided you don't mind the use of the recent Devin depiction, or the retcons.

Although I'm willing to bet that people that've been reading about Nightwing longer than the last 4 or 5 years would have objections.

[Slortex]

Its one thing to ignore continuity. In fact, I prefer it when stories don't feel tethered to years of backstory. But when you're writing a story that's supposed to pick up where another one left off, its just plain sloppy not to have read the first story. Being selective with story elements from past tales is fine, but if the past tale in question is being rereleased to coincide with your work, and your work is being billed as returning such and such story to canon...

That's just ridiculous.

I don't remember Morrisson's official take on it, but wasn't he saying that this was a sequel to the events in Son of the Demon? If not, and he did say that he was merely using it as an influence, then these criticisms don't really apply, but I was under the impression that he intended it as a sequel.

[Kid Omega]

Not at all. I said it's Grant Morrison writing it. Don't you trust Grant Morrison to write a good Nightwing story, including major changes to the character, and the appearance of a long lost sibling or son or something, based on the charactrization Nightwing's gotten the last few years? He can even have something new and cool, like the ninja man bats but obviously something we haven't heard of before, in it. I'm positive that people coming in only knowing Nightwing from the last few years, reading this hypothetical story without older stories, would say it's a good one. And if continuity is an illusion, retcon punch, he's got lots of freedom to have a younger Dick be anything he wants. Maybe Dick used to be a real asshole. I bet Grant could write a good story about a young Robin the boy wonder that's a jerk and fathered a kid, and eventually Robin became the depressed Nightwing that seems to fail a lot from Devin's run, and he undergoes serious personality changes after meeting the kid he fathered. Or something like that. Grant's no slouch at writing, he could make something like that great, provided you don't mind the use of the recent Devin depiction, or the retcons.

Although I'm willing to bet that people that've been reading about Nightwing longer than the last 4 or 5 years would have objections.

It's really weird how you're turning this into a "new readers" vs "old readers" thing, when that's entirely not the situation.

[Damo]

It's really weird how you're turning this into a "new readers" vs "old readers" thing, when that's entirely not the situation.

That is not what I intended to do. I may have slanted some of my responses in that light because Prime was insisting that he's read enough to understand the character, having read Son of the Demon and the Talia stories published since 2003. With some characters and some stories, 3 or 4 years might be enough for sufficient understanding of the character and the character's past. In this case it's not. The character we've seen the last few years is one that underwent an enormous change, and there haven't been many appearances by the character either.

My intent however was to illustrate that a story might very well be considered quite "good" if it existed in a vacuum, so to speak, but could simultaneously be viewed as being quite bad if read by people with a better understanding of the character's history and past characterizations. As it so happens, "old readers" are more likely to be the ones to realize that there have been changes made to the character's history and past characterizations, although there might be "new readers" that have read some old stories and likewise realize what's amiss with the characterization.

You argue that continuity might be an illusion. I reply that a writer should usually at least know the broad strokes of a character's past characterizations.

[JKCarrier]

A character like Talia has actually fewer appearances, although most are a good few years old, and she has undergone a massive change very recently.

I just don't see it as that massive a change, nor is it completely without precedent. Talia was quite the ruthless manipulator in her earliest appearances. It's true, she softened up quite a bit over the years, but that doesn't mean she couldn't ever backslide. Personally, I prefer her with a bit more spine, as opposed to the simpering, "Woe is me, I am torn between my Daddy and my Boyfriend, whatever shall I do" version. The whole point of the Bats-Talia dynamic, IMHO, is that they are powerfully attracted to each other, but his rock-solid morals (and her complete lack of same) means they can never have any kind of serious relationship. Each of them wishes the other would see the error of their ways and jump to the other side of the fence, but it'll never happen.

Whether Damian was conceived in a moment of passion, or in a drugged stupor, doesn't make much difference from Batman's point of view. Either way, he represents the consequences of a moment of weakness, and a cautionary tale about what Batman would become if he tried to live in Talia's world.

[Matt Algren]

Hm. See, I'm not getting how a major character's personality as it was depicted for 91% of the years the character has been around is a "little piece of the backstory".

But okay, let's say there's a writer you trust. Grant, maybe. And he's about to write a big story in Nightwing, with some pretty significant changes in Dick, and revelations about Dick's past. Involving a son, or a sibling, or something. And he seems to be mostly basing this, even the revelations about things that happened in the past, on Dick's characterization during Devin's run.

Be honest, how would you feel about hearing that?You're intentionally forming the hypothetical story in such a way that I can't say it wouldn't bother me. You know what, though? What you outlined above honestly wouldn't bother me.

If a writer has a good story to tell that needs Dick to have a brother, then continuity be damned, I'd like to read the story. Dick having a brother would take nothing away from what's come before, and it would allow a writer to examine the sibling dynamic.

Is he's alive or dead now? Eh, who cares. They'd probably want to kill him off at the end of the story, but I'd be fine with him staying around too. Again, the story's the thing.

And please tell me you didn't actually take the time to do the math on the 91% thing.

[the film freak]

You argue that continuity might be an illusion. I reply that a writer should usually at least know the broad strokes of a character's past characterizations.

It seems like Morrison is getting the broad strokes though. It seems like people are hung up on the details.

[carabas]

I don't remember Morrisson's official take on it, but wasn't he saying that this was a sequel to the events in Son of the Demon? If not, and he did say that he was merely using it as an influence, then these criticisms don't really apply, but I was under the impression that he intended it as a sequel.

Morrison has never said that it is a sequel to SotD. Just that he liked that run, as well as the grown up version of BAtman's son Ibn Al'SomethingwithanXinnit, and liked to do something with that specific ploy idea. SotD has been out of continuity for yonks, and unles someone can show me a link saying otherwise, it still is.

Batman and Son is inspired by an out-of-continuity tale, and an Elseworlds story.

As for Talia, she always was evil, it's just that her sister finally gave her a spine.

Seriously, people call Talia a shades of grey character because she can't make up her mind between daddy and Batman?
Daddy is the guy that wants to kill a couple of billion people. If she has any doubt at all as to what side she should choose, she either is the biggest wimp in the history of comics, or she is simply evil and always was, and her occasional alliances with Batman were purely hormone driven.

And finally, 'Batman And Son' is not about Talia. She is in it for all of two pages, and doesn't get enough panel time to clearly establish her character.
It's been said that Talia would never have her son trained by the League of Assassins. Why not? And even if she didn't, what makes you think she had any choice in the matter?
The kid's Ra's Al Ghul's heir, and I think that Talia would have had very little input in his upbringing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Seriously, people call Talia a shades of grey character because she can't make up her mind between daddy and Batman?
Daddy is the guy that wants to kill a couple of billion people.

Bingo.

By all indications, in Talia's perfect world, she would be with Batman and they'd aid her genocidal father together.


SEAN

[Constantine Drakon]

...I probably don't want to know where the Son of Nightwing scenario came from. He's probably slept around enough for more than one though. We really should have a few Nightwhelps showing up. :rolleyes:



Personally, I prefer her with a bit more spine, as opposed to the simpering, "Woe is me, I am torn between my Daddy and my Boyfriend, whatever shall I do" version.

I suppose if she was written like that I would hate her too. I never saw much of her actively despairing of her plight though, no "woe is me" speaches. Usually she just seemed to do whatever she could in a given situation to keep them both safe from one another. And we saw her spine in Tower of Babel.


The whole point of the Bats-Talia dynamic, IMHO, is that they are powerfully attracted to each other, but his rock-solid morals (and her complete lack of same) means they can never have any kind of serious relationship. Each of them wishes the other would see the error of their ways and jump to the other side of the fence, but it'll never happen.

If she had a complete lack of morals, why did she feel shame for what they did in Tower of Babel, breaking away from Ra's for it? She wasn't written as someone without morals. She was written, I feel, as someone with morals who had fallen under the sway of a maniac convinced he was saving the world through genocide.

It seems like Morrison is getting the broad strokes though. It seems like people are hung up on the details.

I don't think he has a good grasp of Talia. There are some things that I think Talia would not do, because of self respect or because she would feel too ashamed. I think that's pretty essential to her, and falls under the "broad strokes" of her history. Some people might call that "details" I guess. Broad strokes, details, whatever. Quite simply the scene did not ring at all true for me.

Morrison has never said that it is a sequel to SotD. Just that he liked that run, as well as the grown up version of BAtman's son Ibn Al'SomethingwithanXinnit, and liked to do something with that specific ploy idea. SotD has been out of continuity for yonks, and unles someone can show me a link saying otherwise, it still is.

I'm unsure how to feel about how Morrison presented this. In interview he was basically asked "that's the baby from Son of the Demon, right? Why'd you pick that thing from the past, which had been taken out of continuity, and bring it back?" And then he went on to say how much he liked the original Barr story, and how he thought it was good to do something controversial, and so on. He never really addressed that the story he was writing was not really a sequel to Son of the Demon. I don't know if he just didn't realize most people assumed it was, or if he didn't want to point out the mistake, or if DC had asked him not to since they were reprinting Son. I do wish he had been clearer. There definitely were people that bought Son thinking they should read it before this.

As for Talia, she always was evil, it's just that her sister finally gave her a spine.

I disagree. She showed she had a "spine" and that she wasn't always "evil" by betraying Ra's to the heroes in Tower of Babel. Her sister, if anything, removed her "spine". Talia had left her father and was her own woman. Nyssa betrayed her, brainwashed her, tortured her, and manipulated her. By the end of it she was no longer her own woman, she was following Nyssa the same way she used to follow Ra's.

Seriously, people call Talia a shades of grey character because she can't make up her mind between daddy and Batman?
Daddy is the guy that wants to kill a couple of billion people.

To save the planet. And while Ra's is more black and white (because he shows such glee in the downfall of his enemies, unlike Talia who often shows pity) that doesn't mean that everyone who falls for his lines is evil. His idea of killing most of mankind to save the world is not evil in the same way as one of the Joker's killing sprees. He is not an evil man trying to destroy the world, or a good man trying to save the world, or greedy man out to further his own ends, that's all too simple. He believes he is doing good and that the ends justify the means. By his reasoning if he doesn't whittle mankind down to a managable size then there won't be a world left soon enough. A good person who's heard his rationalizations their entire life is probably going to see the twisted "logic" in them. Talia stayed by his side, but often questioned him to ask if there was no better way. And in the end she broke away from him. But really, to me, saying she's evil enough to follow Ra's so she should have no problem with doing anything else evil misses a lot of the character's complexity. There are people that will do some very bad things but draw the line at other things. Talia interested me because not every villainous act was fair game.

If she has any doubt at all as to what side she should choose, she either is the biggest wimp in the history of comics, or she is simply evil and always was, and her occasional alliances with Batman were purely hormone driven.

As I see it, she listened to Ra's arguments and doomsday scenarios for what would happen if mankind continued to go unchecked, for pretty much her entire life, and for a long time she believed that the greater good could be achieved through evil, but she eventually broke away from Ra's. I can understand why someone would see her as stupid, weak, or evil for seeing Ra's' side and working with him. I saw her as a person that might have turned out completely good if things had gone differently, and who still has a warped sense of honor. Both Ra's and Talia were able to have respect for the heroes pitted against them, although Ra's cast aside that respect quicker than Talia. That's different from your run of the mill "evil".

I don't know if it's a "small step" or a "big leap" for her to go from what she was before to this, but I always thought she was interesting and more three dimensional because there were some bad things she just wouldn't do. If she's going to be written with the philosophy "She's evil, so anything evil is fair game" then I've the character I liked, and lost my interest in her as well.

But this is all really premature, isn't it? When does the next issue come out? It's hard to judge this story as good or bad, or accurately examine how it treated characters when it's still unfinished. Personally I want to see how he wraps up everything with Talia, Damien, the ninja man bats and Robin before I judge this. I haven't been enjoying this much so far, but he might really surprise me.

[Harding Prime]

A minute ago the current characterization was okay because you said it had been there for the last decade. But now knowing about the, what, 6 stories she's had over the last 10 years is too much work for a writer? Sorry, while I'm fine giving some leeway with continuity, I expect a writer to know the "big picture" of 91.4% of the character's appearances over the years, not base his or her understanding on the most recent 8.9% (that's quickly calculated from her time after Death and Maidens as it relates to her total time in print).

Why would you base the character on anything but what was last written about them. There again I don't see the problem with what Morrison did. He is holding true to how the character has evolved, not the precious innocent character you hold on to...why you do i have no idea.

You don't need to read the last 10 or 20 years of Batman stories to write a good Batman tale.
Are you trying to make my point for me. Thanks...i guess.


Yup. She's probably come closer to making Bruce give it all up to live with her, for one thing.

Psych, maybe in the precious world that you hold dear for Talia, but over and over he keeps going back to Selina.

So if I understand you correctly, you think it's more important to have a good understanding of how Nightwing's been presented for most of his appearances, and would object to someone writing him basically based on how he's been presented for the last 4 years (Devin having taken over Nightwing in 2002... and Death and Maidens having come out in 2003, giving us the more evil Talia).

It is best to write how the character has evolved, which is what Morrison has done.

[Constantine Drakon]

Why would you base the character on anything but what was last written about them.


Because when a character changes you're not meant to forget what there was before. You were meant to remember Hal Jordon the hero when he was Parallax, and the fact that Harry and Peter were friends before Harry became the Green Goblin. I always thought that to be really basic comic storytelling.


Are you trying to make my point for me. Thanks...i guess.


I believe the point was that there's a difference between writing Batman and other characters. Which makes sense. If you read ten years of stories about a character that appears monthly you're going to get a lot of the same things being repeated in terms of characterization. Ten years of a character that only appears every other year is different.


Psych, maybe in the precious world that you hold dear for Talia, but over and over he keeps going back to Selina.


I think they've come about equal. Up until Hush Talia clearly had an edge, but Batman made a big change in his relationship with Catwoman in Hush. During the 70s 80s and 90s it was no contest though. Catwoman was the flirt that Batman felt sexual tension with, Talia was the one that tempted Bruce with a relationship.

Of course now there's baby Helena complicating things. I really do wonder if Will Pfieffer (sp?) has lost his mind.

[Harding Prime]

Because when a character changes you're not meant to forget what there was before. You were meant to remember Hal Jordon the hero when he was Parallax, and the fact that Harry and Peter were friends before Harry became the Green Goblin. I always thought that to be really basic comic storytelling. The Difference between Talia and Hal Jordan though is Hal is a Major Character. If you make changes to someone who may not be in the top ten of Batman's Rogue Gallery, basing your work on her last appearance makes more sense.


I think they've come about equal. Up until Hush Talia clearly had an edge, but Batman made a big change in his relationship with Catwoman in Hush. During the 70s 80s and 90s it was no contest though. Catwoman was the flirt that Batman felt sexual tension with, Talia was the one that tempted Bruce with a relationship. I disagree...Yeah!

[Constantine Drakon]

The Difference between Talia and Hal Jordan though is Hal is a Major Character. If you make changes to someone who may not be in the top ten of Batman's Rogue Gallery, basing your work on her last appearance makes more sense.

I disagree. We have different cut off points for how important a character must be to read their last 10 or so appearances.

I disagree...Yeah!

Well, to be fair to Catwoman, there was that period in the 70s and 80s where she was kind of an ally, before Dr. Moon turned her evil again. I honestly didn't care for those Catwoman stories, and didn't read more than a few (what an awful costume she had). Maybe they were closer than I remember. From what I read, up until Hush Catwoman was more of a flirt, although during her "good girl" period she seemed to be all wistful sighs and goo goo eyes. Maybe that time before she was mindwiped again would put her into the lead. I don't know, they've both seemed to have their moments, but I never felt there was much there between Batman and Catwoman until he revealed his identity in Hush.

[Harding Prime]

Ok, so here it is, (in my mind). Talia is being re-vamped to possibly come out of her fathers shadows and become a mojor player in the Batman scene. To try something different, Morrison took and old story that was taken out of continuity, brought the basis of the story back, and made it something of his own. Since it was taken out of continuity, he could really do whatever he wanted to the story. He decided to change it up a little and make it a little more vindictive, since he feels that Talia is taken for granted as a villian, she isn't all peachy and nice, she wants kill millions of people in the eye of her father, to better serve mankind. She wanted Batman to join and would go by any means neccesary to do it. Through love or child. Morrison, or anyone, could write that her love was just a ploy to get him to join in the ultimate plan of world cleansing. Totally retconning her "Grey" persona, and doing it pretty easily. At least he is using Talia, and she will get more exposure, (for those who give a..). I personally like Morrison's portrayal of Bruce going back to his more Michael Keaton ways. It's more fun to read now after OYL, and look forward to 12 more issues from him...and hopefully Kubert too.

[carabas]

If she had a complete lack of morals, why did she feel shame for what they did in Tower of Babel, breaking away from Ra's for it?

Having read his fill-in issues during the Morrison run, I didn't feel any urge to invest in the Waid trades. What exactly was she ashamed of? I'm assuming it is something more severe than stealing Batman's plans for containing the League.

I don't think he has a good grasp of Talia.

He has not written enough of her to say either way.
The exotic flashback seemed spot-on to me anyways.

I'm unsure how to feel about how Morrison presented this. In interview he was basically asked "that's the baby from Son of the Demon, right? Why'd you pick that thing from the past, which had been taken out of continuity, and bring it back?" And then he went on to say how much he liked the original Barr story, and how he thought it was good to do something controversial, and so on.

I think the problem lies more in the clumsy way the interviewer posed the extremely suggestive question. 'Leading the witness', as the say in court room dramas.

I disagree. She showed she had a "spine" and that she wasn't always "evil" by betraying Ra's to the heroes in Tower of Babel. Her sister, if anything, removed her "spine". Talia had left her father and was her own woman. Nyssa betrayed her, brainwashed her, tortured her, and manipulated her. By the end of it she was no longer her own woman, she was following Nyssa the same way she used to follow Ra's.

I concede this point.

To save the planet.

Huhwhat? He wanted to kill 90% of the world population, but it's okay becauser it was to save the planet?!

And while Ra's is more black and white (because he shows such glee in the downfall of his enemies, unlike Talia who often shows pity) that doesn't mean that everyone who falls for his lines is evil. His idea of killing most of mankind to save the world is not evil in the same way as one of the Joker's killing sprees. He is not an evil man trying to destroy the world, or a good man trying to save the world, or greedy man out to further his own ends, that's all too simple. He believes he is doing good and that the ends justify the means.

Which is all nice and well, but Hitler was also pretty sure he was working towards a greater good. Ra's was evil. Deluded, mad, twisted, and evil.

saying she's evil enough to follow Ra's so she should have no problem with doing anything else evil misses a lot of the character's complexity.

That's not what I said. I just said that she was always evil.

There are people that will do some very bad things but draw the line at other things. Talia interested me because not every villainous act was fair game.

Joker will kill dozens for a laugh, but he won't hurt a fly unles it's funny.
Drawing the line at some point does not exclude one from villainy. And anyone who works with the guy that wants to kill 90% of humanity, even if she has doubts, is far more villainous that you make her seem to be.

I saw her as a person that might have turned out completely good if things had gone differently, and who still has a warped sense of honor. Both Ra's and Talia were able to have respect for the heroes pitted against them, although Ra's cast aside that respect quicker than Talia.

That's pretty much spot on.

That's different from your run of the mill "evil".
Nobody said she was run of the mill evil. At least I didn't. Does that even exist, run of the mill evil?

If she's going to be written with the philosophy "She's evil, so anything evil is fair game" then I've the character I liked, and lost my interest in her as well.
There are no indications to this so far.

But this is all really premature, isn't it?

Very. But it doesn't really seem like the issue will be wrapped in this arc, with only 22 pages left. There'll be a Ra's Al Ghul arc sometime next year, I think. Why else kill Nyssa?

[Sean Whitmore]

I disagree. She showed she had a "spine" and that she wasn't always "evil" by betraying Ra's to the heroes in Tower of Babel.

She betrays Ra's a lot, but always ends up going back to him.


To save the planet. And while Ra's is more black and white (because he shows such glee in the downfall of his enemies, unlike Talia who often shows pity) that doesn't mean that everyone who falls for his lines is evil. His idea of killing most of mankind to save the world is not evil in the same way as one of the Joker's killing sprees.

His goals may not be evil, but his actions most definitely are. He wants to kill most of mankind, and no matter how nice he dresses it up, it's still iredeemably evil. Same as Doctor Doom for wanting to take over the earth because he honestly thinks he'd be good for it, or Apocalypse wanting to kill alll but the "fit".


SEAN

[Mia]

She betrays Ra's a lot, but always ends up going back to him.

No she hasn't.

Starting from the JLA: Tower of Bable run on. There are a string of stories of Talia washing her hands of Ra's and turning her back on him. Up until DATM there was no reconciliation between the two.


His goals may not be evil, but his actions most definitely are. He wants to kill most of mankind, and no matter how nice he dresses it up, it's still iredeemably evil. Same as Doctor Doom for wanting to take over the earth because he honestly thinks he'd be good for it, or Apocalypse wanting to kill alll but the "fit".


SEAN


I'm not an Eco fanatic so I don't agree with him. But as far as Ra's is concerned. Mankind is a cancer on the earth who is destroying it. They haven't improved or done better so they should be done away with.




Why would you base the character on anything but what was last written about them. There again I don't see the problem with what Morrison did. He is holding true to how the character has evolved, not the precious innocent character you hold on to...why you do i have no idea.

But no he isn't holding true to how the character has evolved. He isn't at all.
Talia is not like the Joker who does things simply for 'kicks'. Talia is a brilliant, shrewd and cunning strategist. Everything she does is for a reason and to further her goals. Even Gail Simone got that when she wrote the character in Birds of Prey and VU. Just because Talia has gone over to the 'dark side', wouldn't change her skills as a strategist or way of opperating.

One thing I noticed from his treatment of Emma in the X-Men. Was how over the top she was when he wrote her. I recently picked up some of my old Generation X issue and was surprised at Emma's portrayal. Oh she was arrogant and imperial. But Emma never behaved like the bitchy highschool mean queen that Morrison portrayed her as.





I really think that if Morisson was simply interested in writing about a spiteful bitchy 'Paris Hilton' like villainess. Then he should have invented one of his own. Bruce's life is certainly rich enough and eventful enough to have allowed him to have crossed and impregnated such a woman.

[Sean Whitmore]

No she hasn't.

Starting from the JLA: Tower of Bable run on. There are a string of stories of Talia washing her hands of Ra's and turning her back on him. Up until DATM there was no reconciliation between the two.

That's exactly my point, though. Shouldn't there only ever be ONE story of her washing her hands of Ra's? ;)


But as far as Ra's is concerned. Mankind is a cancer on the earth who is destroying it. They haven't improved or done better so they should be done away with.


Yeah, but Magneto feels the same way about humans . :) I get his point, and there's a nice germ of an idea buried deep beneath his insanity, but he's still nothing more than a mass-murderer.


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

But no he isn't holding true to how the character has evolved. He isn't at all.
Talia is not like the Joker who does things simply for 'kicks'. Talia is a brilliant, shrewd and cunning strategist. Everything she does is for a reason and to further her goals. Even Gail Simone got that when she wrote the character in Birds of Prey and VU. Just because Talia has gone over to the 'dark side', wouldn't change her skills as a strategist or way of opperating.

Ok, we are 3 issues deep, and only one with Talia in it. This seems like something that she isn't just doing for kicks, at all, why you assume that is beyond me. This seems 13 years calculated to me. This is all part of her sceme to follow in her father's footsteps and "cleanse" the world. Let the story evolve before you jump to conclusions. And even then I want give a @#$# about Talia.

[Mia]

That's exactly my point, though. Shouldn't there only ever be ONE story of her washing her hands of Ra's? ;)


That's up the writer's isn't it? However my point is that not once in any of these stories did she ever go back to her father. In fact in all of them she made it clear how repulsive she found him.





Yeah, but Magneto feels the same way about humans . :) I get his point, and there's a nice germ of an idea buried deep beneath his insanity, but he's still nothing more than a mass-murderer.


SEAN

Well he is to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned they are getting rid of a cancer on the earth.

[Constantine Drakon]

He decided to change it up a little and make it a little more vindictive, since he feels that Talia is taken for granted as a villian, she isn't all peachy and nice, she wants kill millions of people in the eye of her father, to better serve mankind. She wanted Batman to join and would go by any means neccesary to do it. Through love or child. Morrison, or anyone, could write that her love was just a ploy to get him to join in the ultimate plan of world cleansing. Totally retconning her "Grey" persona, and doing it pretty easily.

That may very well be what he is trying to do. I find that a much more boring character, and think it diminishes her. I can understand why you like it, but I find I am missing what would be lost if that were implimented across the board.

(Has anyone else ever noticed that there aren't many good antonyms for "improvement"?)

Having read his fill-in issues during the Morrison run, I didn't feel any urge to invest in the Waid trades. What exactly was she ashamed of? I'm assuming it is something more severe than stealing Batman's plans for containing the League.

Corrupting and betraying Batman's plans, and asking her to be on one of the teams using the plans. She feels ashamed and dishonored as she does it, asks Ra's "where will it all end" or something, gives a speech about how she wasn't happy with what he asked her, along with a lot of things recently, and then she betrays him.

Huhwhat? He wanted to kill 90% of the world population, but it's okay becauser it was to save the planet?!

Which is all nice and well, but Hitler was also pretty sure he was working towards a greater good. Ra's was evil. Deluded, mad, twisted, and evil.

A good analogy (and there goes Godwin's law...). Like Hitler, the evil Ra's does can be couched by the villain in terms to make it sound good. Neither of them said they were doing bad things for themselves, out of greed. They said they were doing it for others, for the greater good. Talia has listened to her father's propaganda and half truths her entire life. Yes, Ra's is evil and Hitler is evil. But consider someone raised in the Hitler youth, knowing nothing but the propaganda that Hitler was good and noble, and the rest of the world was filled with evil monsters. If someone from that background keeps going along with what they were taught, but has moments of doubt and shows mercy to the ones they're meant to think are evil monsters, I would not think them necessarily evil. That's essentially how I view Talia's allegiance to Ra's. She isn't stupid, she's quite clever, and we get glimpses to show she's kind of a good person raised to believe the wrong things are "moral", but the propaganda Ra's feeds her has been the dominant influence in her life, and he knows how to phrase it so that it sounds like he's a hero.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well he is to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned they are getting rid of a cancer on the earth.

Well, you can't take the murderer's point of view as valid.

I could just as easily say, "Well, the Joker my be a crazy serial killer to you, but as far as he's concerned he's just getting rid of stiffs who don't get the joke."


SEAN

[carabas]

I really think that if Morisson was simply interested in writing about a spiteful bitchy 'Paris Hilton' like villainess. Then he should have invented one of his own. Bruce's life is certainly rich enough and eventful enough to have allowed him to have crossed and impregnated such a woman.

But it isn't a Talia story. She's in it for two pages only, by necessity. And she is neither particularly spiteful nor bitchy in it. But they have been enemies for a couple of years now.
Also, SHE STOLE HIS SON. And she did it in the wonderful non-Morrison masterwork 'Son of the Demon'.
What did you expect? A welcome snog, some flowery prose about the good old days, and perhaps some make-up sex?

The story is not about Talia, Talia is not the villain, she is not a protagonist, she is an extra. It is about Batman and Robin. The son in the title is Robin, not Damien. Talia has a very minor part in it, and barely has a line or two.

[Harding Prime]

That's up to the writer's isn't it?

That is our point...Mommy, she took took our point.

Well he is to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned they are getting rid of a cancer on the earth.

You would be part of that cancer though, so do u think you deserve to die for Ra's greater good?

[Constantine Drakon]

I could just as easily say, "Well, the Joker my be a crazy serial killer to you, but as far as he's concerned he's just getting rid of stiffs who don't get the joke."


It doesn't exactly have the appeal of "if I don't stop mankind the very world itself will be destroyed. Here, let me show you examples of the horrible things mankind has done. Now picture a beautiful Eden. Wouldn't that be better?"

Still, you could indoctrinate someone from birth with either viewpoint and produce someone more misguided than truly evil.

[Constantine Drakon]

That is our point...Mommy, she took took our point.

I believe what the lady was trying to say was that regardless of whether or not writers showed her "breaking away" more than once (and I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, there was one big break and maybe some reminders that she was no longer following him), none of those writers set up something like this.

You would be part of that cancer though, so do u think you deserve to die for Ra's greater good?

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that Ra's ideas should actually be implimented. Only that because he thinks he's a good guy and can phrase his ideas in ways that they sound like they're for the greater good, someone can follow him, having been indoctrinated since birth, and not be a truly evil person.

[Sean Whitmore]

Still, you could indoctrinate someone from birth with either viewpoint and produce someone more misguided than truly evil.

Now that's a fair point. Talia was most likely raised from childhood to believe Ra's views were right and everyone who disagreed wasn't just wrong, they were friggin' nuts.

The only thing is you can't put it completely on Ra's, other than to suggest Talia has no free will of her own. It even calls into question her feelings for Bruce...does she love him because she loves him, or because Ra's keeps saying he's the kind of guy she should love?


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

I believe what the lady was trying to say was that regardless of whether or not writers showed her "breaking away" more than once (and I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, there was one big break and maybe some reminders that she was no longer following him), none of those writers set up something like this. It's called taking something out of context, don't you watch political ads??



Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that Ra's ideas should actually be implimented. Only that because he thinks he's a good guy and can phrase his ideas in ways that they sound like they're for the greater good, someone can follow him, having been indoctrinated since birth, and not be a truly evil person. Did you read what she said. It seems that is axactly what she was doing.

[Harding Prime]

Let's not forget that through most of the character, Talia was young. A lot of her running away might just have been a rebellion from her father that has been, to put lightly, strict. Now that he is gone, she sees the error in the ways of humanity and the love for her father has blossomed for her to take the mantle of her father and cleanse the world.

[Constantine Drakon]

Now that's a fair point. Talia was most likely raised from childhood to believe Ra's views were right and everyone who disagreed wasn't just wrong, they were friggin' nuts.

The only thing is you can't put it completely on Ra's, other than to suggest Talia has no free will of her own. It even calls into question her feelings for Bruce...does she love him because she loves him, or because Ra's keeps saying he's the kind of guy she should love?


Hm. Interesting point. I think her personality was heavily shaped by Ra's - particularly Ra's as he wants to be, the noble hero. He's quite willing to condemn something in others but do it himself, but I think Talia would have been raised by what he said more than what he was actually willing to do.

Ra's never told her to love Batman. But there is no doubt that in the Ghul household certain qualities were held up to be admirable, and Batman exemplifies many of them.

As for her free will, I think the way that she went behind his back many times and ultimately left him goes a long way toward showing that she did have free will. It took her a long time to leave, but she did love him, and that was a big move for her. I really detest Nyssa, who just shoved Talia right back into her old subordinate role with torture and brainwashing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Ra's never told her to love Batman. But there is no doubt that in the Ghul household certain qualities were held up to be admirable, and Batman exemplifies many of them.


Yeah, in the animated series you could barely bring up Batman's name without Ra's saying something like, "You're such a worthy opponent" or "What a perfect heir he would make."


SEAN

[The Batman]

But it isn't a Talia story. She's in it for two pages only, by necessity. And she is neither particularly spiteful nor bitchy in it. But they have been enemies for a couple of years now.
Also, SHE STOLE HIS SON. And she did it in the wonderful non-Morrison masterwork 'Son of the Demon'.
What did you expect? A welcome snog, some flowery prose about the good old days, and perhaps some make-up sex?

The story is not about Talia, Talia is not the villain, she is not a protagonist, she is an extra. It is about Batman and Robin. The son in the title is Robin, not Damien. Talia has a very minor part in it, and barely has a line or two.

Very good points. Talia isn't even the focus of this story and after her appearence in it I didn't find myself wondering why she was acting so grossly out of character. After all, she'd been behaving in a somewhat more openly sinister manner for some time now. Batman's recollections also don't seem that they should be taken at face value. He's either hurt or disappointed and that's either colouring his recollections or at the very least how he's going to talk about Talia with others. Most people usually don't have alot of nice things to say about an ex that screwed them over, it's the human thing to do afterall and isn't Batman human?

I'm not worried that this story doesn't get Son of the Demon 100% right. Yes, it sucks that Morrison wasn't more thorough but it's also not nearly the big deal that people appear to be making it out to be.

I'm having a ball reading this. It's alot of fun. I'm wondering if Damien is really Batman's kid or if this is all some complex plot on the part of Talia to distract the world's greatest detective while she does something dastardly rather than on how faithful this is to a 20 year old story.

Sometimes I feel that it gets too easy to focus on the minor details and totally overlook the big picture.

[the film freak]

Yeah, but Magneto feels the same way about humans . :) I get his point, and there's a nice germ of an idea buried deep beneath his insanity, but he's still nothing more than a mass-murderer.

Good thing you didn't say that on the X-Board. We'd have twenty more pages on this thread.