Morisson, Explains Batman and Son

[Sean Whitmore]

Good thing you didn't say that on the X-Board. We'd have twenty more pages on this thread.


You're telling me. I've been in some of those threads. :)


SEAN

[Lee Kaye]

For those who don't think Morrison has been paying attention to older stories. This just in.... ;)

http://www.grant-morrison.com/images/batman.jpg

[StrikeForce Albert]

Good thing you didn't say that on the X-Board. We'd have twenty more pages on this thread.


and they all would amount to "ZOMG! Morrison suxxorz, bring back Austen"

[Mia]

Well, you can't take the murderer's point of view as valid.

I could just as easily say, "Well, the Joker my be a crazy serial killer to you, but as far as he's concerned he's just getting rid of stiffs who don't get the joke."


SEAN

Like I said, Ra's is murderer to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned you (or most of mankind) is murdering the planet and need to be stopped. They've been given several chances to clean up their act. But they haven't so they need to be stopped once and for all. To him the ends justify the means. I didn't say I agreed with the rational I'm just explaining it.

[Harding Prime]

Like I said, Ra's is murderer to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned you (or most of mankind) is murdering the planet and need to be stopped. They've been given several chances to clean up their act. But they haven't so they need to be stopped once and for all. To him the ends justify the means. I didn't say I agreed with the rational I'm just explaining it.

But where is your point???

Agreed though that certain people in this thread are taking Talia as the only character in this storyline or something. I don't know how Morrison ruined this character for having her in two pages. You people will try to slam anything sometimes. The story isn't my favorite...so far, but I have always enjoyed the risks Morrison has taken with big characters and will probably buy all 15 issues he does.

[Harding Prime]

BTW - referring to his bold chances with big characters, I wanted to put in a quote from him from a interview he did with Newsarama.com.

"NRAMA: Just so everyone's on the same page - that was the real Joker getting shot in the real face by a real gun by a guy who wasn't Batman in our reality, right?

GM: No, it was Xorn."

Hahahaha, the man has balls, you gotta give him that!

[Damo]

Like I said, Ra's is murderer to you. But as far as Ra's is concerned you (or most of mankind) is murdering the planet and need to be stopped. They've been given several chances to clean up their act. But they haven't so they need to be stopped once and for all. To him the ends justify the means. I didn't say I agreed with the rational I'm just explaining it.

But where is your point???

A few years ago I had dinner with three women doctors from Japan. The conversation got around to marriage, and eventually the question popped up: What would they do when/if they got pregnant? All of them, without hesitation, said they would just retire and become mothers full time. I pressed, and they basically shrugged off the pros and cons - this was how it was done, so this was how they intended to do it. They were all quite intelligent well educated women, but they were raised in a culture where this was barely even a question, it was just the way the world worked.

Talia is an extremely clever and strong woman. But she was raised by an extremely clever, strong, and charasmatic man, who has firmly convinced himself of a half truth and who has put a great deal of time and thought into rationalizing the horrible things he does. He isn't some common bank robber working out of greed - he thinks he's a hero, and he raised Talia to think what he does is heroic. He's also got a large number of followers going around repeating and reinforcing what he says, making that image of him as a hero even stronger. It's one thing to have a father that's a bank robber, its another to have one that says he's saving the world, and is followed all over the place by people nodding in agreement. Talia was indoctrinated on his world view since birth, it's a testament to her as a character that she ever questioned it or disobayed him, much less that she eventually broke away from him.


Agreed though that certain people in this thread are taking Talia as the only character in this storyline or something. I don't know how Morrison ruined this character for having her in two pages.

I don't think that's a very good argument. You don't have to be one of the main characters in the story to be affected by it. Tim wasn't one of the story where Steph died, but her death clearly had a huge effect on him. Tim and Jack Drake weren't the main characters in Identity Crisis, it had a huge impact on them. Talia was in, like, a panel of Batgirl, and it provided her entire reason for joining the Society. Okay, so Talia's in two pages. In those two pages we've got her first major interaction with Batman since Death and Maidens, and she's a far bigger shrew here than she was there. She's lost her class (either being a rapist, or not minding being called one), has helped raise a monster (when Damian says his mother let him do things, how does that reflect on her?), apparently kept Batman's son from him for far less altruistic reasons than she did in Son of the Demon, and has apparently taken up Ra's' crusade to an extent we've never seen from here, despite the fact that she had been following Nyssa's extremely different vision for years now, and Nyssa's body is barely even cold. Even if she isn't one of the main characters, Morrison has basically set up a lot of details regarding Talia's current role in the DCU. Maybe some of the groundwork was already there from other writers, but I'm not liking where he decided to go with it, and I don't like what it sets up to be her future role.



You people will try to slam anything sometimes.

That's a pretty big accusation, that anyone that disagrees with you is doing it just because they like being disagreeable. But so you don't think I'm too negative, I think the following books rock: 52, Action Comics, All Star Superman, Atom, Batman and the Mad Monk, Birds of Prey, Checkmate, Detective Comics, Manhunter, Nightwing, Secret Six, Superman, and Teen Titans. I'm probably leaving some I like out.

We're pretty much talking in circles now though. Going to take a break from this thread until the next issue comes out in a few days.

[Harding Prime]

That's a pretty big accusation, that anyone that disagrees with you is doing it just because they like being disagreeable. But so you don't think I'm too negative, I think the following books rock: 52, Action Comics, All Star Superman, Atom, Batman and the Mad Monk, Birds of Prey, Checkmate, Detective Comics, Manhunter, Nightwing, Secret Six, Superman, and Teen Titans. I'm probably leaving some I like out.

We're pretty much talking in circles now though. Going to take a break from this thread until the next issue comes out in a few days.

It's just everything I have read from you in any thread has been mostly negative. But I understand your argument...to a small degree. The fact of the matter is I don't give a shit about Talia as a character, which is my opinion. But thanks for letting me know the next book is coming out on Wednesday, I was wondering.

P.S. - I too am really excited about Richard Donner doing Action Comics right now.

[the film freak]

It's just everything I have read from you in any thread has been mostly negative. But I understand your argument...to a small degree. The fact of the matter is I don't give a shit about Talia as a character, which is my opinion. But thanks for letting me know the next book is coming out on Wednesday, I was wondering.

P.S. - I too am really excited about Richard Donner doing Action Comics right now.

It does bum me out when some people just come here (not naming anyone specifically) to bitch about stuff. You know part of the reason I'm come to this site is to find out some cool stuff to read... not what not to read.

[Hellcow]

It does bum me out when some people just come here (not naming anyone specifically) to bitch about stuff. You know part of the reason I'm come to this site is to find out some cool stuff to read... not what not to read.

For some of us, the "what not to read" opinions can save us a lot of time and money. Life is too short to be reading crappy stuff, and a lot of crappy stuff does get published, because icons like batman sell no matter how poor the product is.

Some of us like to read a healthy balance of negative and positive opinions.

If you don't like the negative opinions, no one is forcing you to read them, so just skip them and read all the happy happy joy joy posts. Problem sorted...

[Mia]

Some of us like to read a healthy balance of negative and positive opinions.

If you don't like the negative opinions, no one is forcing you to read them, so just skip them and read all the happy happy joy joy posts. Problem sorted...


Sounds like a plan!

[GRANT!]

I'd like a healthy balance of positive and negative too but from where I'm standing I'm seeing mostly negative. We're all entitled to rant but you know after a while it gets boring reading about how much people hate Dark Knight Strikes Again or whatever.

[Harding Prime]

So I just got done reading Son of the Demon again, and refreshed myself and read the entire story arc of Batman & Son, being involved in many discussions and threads, including Mia. I can understand some readers that have a problem with the evolution of Talia from SOD to now, but it was an evolution and you seem to realize that, especailly hence the brainwashing. I enjoyed the end of the arc the most, because it actually gave a finished product of the questions of what the fuck Grant thinks he is doing...he's doing a good job. I thought I might see some retractions of what people were bashing Grant over after the final product, but I highly doubt he changed the story to appease the Talia fans, it was just part of the evolution of the story. Batman was pretty pissed when he was attacked by about 100 ninja Man-Bats, so anything he says to the bitch that did it to him once he wakes back up, might need to be taken in jest. What is he suppose to do, say thanks honey for having the shit kicked out of me by your mutated league of assasins, want to make another baby. It was a good conclusion that you should have let finish before you tear it up. You can speculate all you want, we all do, but people seem to write shit off before they get the finished product. Here is to the Joker in the next story arc!

[carabas]

I highly doubt he changed the story to appease the Talia fans

Especially since he probably wrote it months before the previous issue even came out.

[The Batman]

Especially since he probably wrote it months before the previous issue even came out.

I think that's very likely. Also, given the brievity of Talia's previous appearance in the story it's likely that we weren't able to get a proper idea of exactly how Morrison was going to treat Talia. She was in it for what, two pages? That hardly seems like the best base to jump to a conclusion from.

[Harding Prime]

I think that's very likely. Also, given the brievity of Talia's previous appearance in the story it's likely that we weren't able to get a proper idea of exactly how Morrison was going to treat Talia. She was in it for what, two pages? That hardly seems like the best base to jump to a conclusion from.


That is all I've been saying, is just give it a chance.

[MadroxTMMan]

Why do I suspect this will be the first of a million such things this fuzzy "new" Earth continuity will give us to try and decipher for lazy writers or editors?

[Harding Prime]

Why do I suspect this will be the first of a million such things this fuzzy "new" Earth continuity will give us to try and decipher for lazy writers or editors?

Only time will tell...

[Damo]

It's just everything I have read from you in any thread has been mostly negative.

Hm. Looking over my past posts, I think that may be because usually when I talk about the things I enjoy there doesn't seem to be much more discussion about them ("loved that latest issue of Secret Six!" "Yeah, me too!" "...." "Yup."), and when I end up defending something I like, I guess that could come off as being "negative" too. I'll keep an eye on that though.

For the record it was unbelievably cool that Nunzio DeFilippis popped in to clarify something in one of the Checkmate threads. I love DeFilippis and Weir's work.

[Harding Prime]

For the record it was unbelievably cool that Nunzio DeFilippis popped in to clarify something in one of the Checkmate threads. I love DeFilippis and Weir's work.

I was talking to Ed Brubaker about me being a little amiss in some of the the Captain America books. It is pretty cool.