Cap, Doom, Tchalla,Namor and Storm.

[bluezulu]

With this possible coaltion forming (check black panther 21) is there any hope for Tony and his crew? How did any one think that the Black Panther as the leader of one of the wealthiest most technological advance nations of the world would be able to stand by and do nothing. The tide to the civil war is about to change.

tchalla is thinking that if tony had his way after the reg community who has resorted to using villians and placing the opposition in the neg zone finished with america would they allow for other nations with super powered beings to sit idly by? tchalla has agreed to work with namor and the resistance as the safer option for his nation. he trusts captain america and he distrusts iron man. i think cap would trust doom to be doom. hmm dooms has a choice to form a temporary alliance to help protect his nation and can then business as usual afterwards? sounds like a plan to me.

[Berkey]

With this possible coaltion forming (check black panther 21) is there any hope for Tony and his crew? How did any one think that the Black Panther as the leader of one of the wealthiest most technological advance nations of the world would be able to stand by and do nothing. The tide to the civil war is about to change.
I alos was thinkning about this I mean it would be the one way the two sides would team up if lets say Atlantis, the inhumans and the criminal world all attack at the same time so well just have to see whats in store

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I'd have a hard time buying Cap having anything to do with Doom, or anyone who's shaken Doom's hand. T'Challa might be a problem - then again, he should be unwilling to drag Wakanda into a US domestic conflict, which could conceivably limit him to providing support, and himself only as manpower (I assume, what with two Daredevils running around, the fact that a guy in a panther costume is seen on Cap's team wouldn't automatically drag Wakanda into the fire). As for Namor, I suspect he'll end up being a pain in the arse to both sides equally.

[Shellhead]

I'd have a hard time buying Cap having anything to do with Doom, or anyone who's shaken Doom's hand.

Cap and Doom teamed up once before, against the Red Skull:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/83631092200.11.gif

[Jmacq1]

Cap and Doom teamed up once before, against the Red Skull:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/83631092200.11.gif

Somehow I don't think that's -quite- how it played out. More like Doom and Skull turned on each other in a way that just happened to put Doom against the Skull as well.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Cap was being buddy-buddy with Doom before or after.

T'Challa and Namor? We already know Cap would work with them, but even being Anti-Reg, I doubt Cap would approve of something that puts the United States itself nor civilian lives directly at risk. He hasn't shown any indications that overthrowing the government is his goal. Heck, he hasn't really shown any indications beyond "doing what we always do" coupled with "keeping other heroes out of SHIELD custody."

[Shellhead]

Somehow I don't think that's -quite- how it played out. More like Doom and Skull turned on each other in a way that just happened to put Doom against the Skull as well.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Cap was being buddy-buddy with Doom before or after.


You are correct that Cap and Doom weren't exactly buddies before or after. However, they did actually team up against their mutual enemy, the Red Skull. Believe it or not, Doom is one of the Red Skull's greatest enemies. Although Marvel covers were sometimes misleading at that time, this one is fairly accurate. Doom and Red Skull clashed, and when the Shroud tried to attack Dr. Doom, Captain America stopped him.

[Magneto Rocks]

Nevertheless, the fact remains: Doctor Doom is a diabolical megalomaniac. If Cap teams up with him, that's WORSE than Tony recruiting his super-villain Thunderbolts- at least they can be controlled, and they're definitely small-time next to Doom.

If Doom helps the Antis, it's because he will enjoy watching Richards see his friends turn against him- and if Doom helps the antis, it could be an indication that he's AFRAID that the SHRA will make America much more effective. And he will have his own motivations.

If Doom helps the Pro-Regs, it could well be so that he can legally and with the full support of the law destroy Susan and Jonathan RIchards right in front of Reed's eyes, or else he may wish to ensure the heroes which survive the Civil War are discredited etc afterwards. (For having allied with a power-hungry tyrant.)

We've already seen that Doom and the Skull are current allies. WHichever side gets Doom (if he enters the war on either side) has a massive advantage in terms of WINNING- but will certainly be double-crossed ere the end.

[Doom]

Somehow I don't think that's -quite- how it played out. More like Doom and Skull turned on each other in a way that just happened to put Doom against the Skull as well.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Cap was being buddy-buddy with Doom before or after.

T'Challa and Namor? We already know Cap would work with them, but even being Anti-Reg, I doubt Cap would approve of something that puts the United States itself nor civilian lives directly at risk. He hasn't shown any indications that overthrowing the government is his goal. Heck, he hasn't really shown any indications beyond "doing what we always do" coupled with "keeping other heroes out of SHIELD custody."

Actually it was more like Doom sought out Cap's help to both team up and defeat the Red Skull.

But they have worked together before.

In Secret Wars Cap offered to help Doom against the villians and Doom considered it, until he thought that Cap's smile ment he was laughing at Doom.

Then there was the Waid issue of Cap where Cap ran into Latveria and asked for Doom to supply him with a Jet, costume and Shield so Cap could save Bill Clinton.

[zulu801]

Somehow I don't think that's -quite- how it played out. More like Doom and Skull turned on each other in a way that just happened to put Doom against the Skull as well.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Cap was being buddy-buddy with Doom before or after.

T'Challa and Namor? We already know Cap would work with them, but even being Anti-Reg, I doubt Cap would approve of something that puts the United States itself nor civilian lives directly at risk. He hasn't shown any indications that overthrowing the government is his goal. Heck, he hasn't really shown any indications beyond "doing what we always do" coupled with "keeping other heroes out of SHIELD custody."

Namor's attitude is a given when it comes to Namor's POV of the USA. Your statement above, "I doubt Cap would approve....." do you believe that T'Challa has the thought of putting US and all US civilians lives at risk not if, but when we read BP and Cap being partners within the CW? BP does not have a thought in his intecllect to place US civilians at risk.

[XPac]

Nevertheless, the fact remains: Doctor Doom is a diabolical megalomaniac. If Cap teams up with him, that's WORSE than Tony recruiting his super-villain Thunderbolts- at least they can be controlled, and they're definitely small-time next to Doom.

If Doom helps the Antis, it's because he will enjoy watching Richards see his friends turn against him- and if Doom helps the antis, it could be an indication that he's AFRAID that the SHRA will make America much more effective. And he will have his own motivations.

If Doom helps the Pro-Regs, it could well be so that he can legally and with the full support of the law destroy Susan and Jonathan RIchards right in front of Reed's eyes, or else he may wish to ensure the heroes which survive the Civil War are discredited etc afterwards. (For having allied with a power-hungry tyrant.)

We've already seen that Doom and the Skull are current allies. WHichever side gets Doom (if he enters the war on either side) has a massive advantage in terms of WINNING- but will certainly be double-crossed ere the end.

Doom is at times a monster. But at the same time he actually has a very long history of teaming up with heroes against all sorts of threats. So it probably depents on the context, because there are plenty of occasions that the heroes were justified in accepting help from Doom.

There is of course a potential danger in dealing with Doom... but I'd assume Panther knows what he's doing if he decides to bring Doom on board.

And though Doom is dangerous, I'm not sure he's WORSE than say a Green Goblin or a Vemon. I think Doom more than most villians does have a desent sense of the greater good. THat's part of the reason why I think heroes do sometimes team up with Doom. He's a bastard... but he's never evil just for the sake of being evil. Doom I think in a lot of ways is one of the safest villians to team up with even if he is insanely dangerous.

[Haunt]

Doom is at times a monster. But at the same time he actually has a very long history of teaming up with heroes against all sorts of threats. So it probably depents on the context, because there are plenty of occasions that the heroes were justified in accepting help from Doom.

There is of course a potential danger in dealing with Doom... but I'd assume Panther knows what he's doing if he decides to bring Doom on board.

And though Doom is dangerous, I'm not sure he's WORSE than say a Green Goblin or a Vemon. I think Doom more than most villians does have a desent sense of the greater good. THat's part of the reason why I think heroes do sometimes team up with Doom. He's a bastard... but he's never evil just for the sake of being evil.

tell that to Valeria, Baby Val, and Franklin.

[Jmacq1]

Namor's attitude is a given when it comes to Namor's POV of the USA. Your statement above, "I doubt Cap would approve....." do you believe that T'Challa has the thought of putting US and all US civilians lives at risk not if, but when we read BP and Cap being partners within the CW? BP does not have a thought in his intecllect to place US civilians at risk.

No, I don't think Black Panther would really attack the US or much less US Civilians. Unless the situation was a clear and present danger to Wakanda...then he might consider it but I'm not sure that he'd condone it even then. He has lots of ways he can mess with the US without going to outright war with them.

What I basically meant is that Cap A: Would trust T'Challa and work with him and B: Has been shown as one of the few people on the planet that Namor respects enough to take orders from/listen to. He wouldn't condone Namor trying to destroy the US anymore than he would Doom, I'd imagine.

Now staging a mock-attack/mini-skirmish to distract the Pro-Reg while he tries to break everyone out of the Neg Zone prison? Yeah....that I could see. ;)

[Jmacq1]

Doom is at times a monster. But at the same time he actually has a very long history of teaming up with heroes against all sorts of threats. So it probably depents on the context, because there are plenty of occasions that the heroes were justified in accepting help from Doom.

There is of course a potential danger in dealing with Doom... but I'd assume Panther knows what he's doing if he decides to bring Doom on board.

And though Doom is dangerous, I'm not sure he's WORSE than say a Green Goblin or a Vemon. I think Doom more than most villians does have a desent sense of the greater good. THat's part of the reason why I think heroes do sometimes team up with Doom. He's a bastard... but he's never evil just for the sake of being evil. Doom I think in a lot of ways is one of the safest villians to team up with even if he is insanely dangerous.

Yeah, trying to say Doom is worse than Goblin or Bullseye is kind of like saying Apples are better than Oranges: It's a matter of perspective.

Doom is a megalomaniac of the highest order. He's a killer, certainly, but he doesn't seem to take particular pleasure in killing, nor does the need to kill or base violent urges drive him like say, Bullseye or Venom. He also has a long history of mildly redeeming qualities. He has a strong sense of honor. He feels responsible for and takes good care of the people he rules, though he does so through an absolute dictatorship.

Doom certainly thinks and operates "larger scale" than Goblin or Bullseye, but he generally doesn't kill on a whim, nor seek death for death's sake. To some people, that might make him less "evil" than some of the others mentioned.

But the real bottom line is that they're all bad guys, and neither side should be working with them if they can at all avoid it. ;)

[XPac]

Yeah, trying to say Doom is worse than Goblin or Bullseye is kind of like saying Apples are better than Oranges: It's a matter of perspective.

Doom is a megalomaniac of the highest order. He's a killer, certainly, but he doesn't seem to take particular pleasure in killing, nor does the need to kill or base violent urges drive him like say, Bullseye or Venom. He also has a long history of mildly redeeming qualities. He has a strong sense of honor. He feels responsible for and takes good care of the people he rules, though he does so through an absolute dictatorship.

Doom certainly thinks and operates "larger scale" than Goblin or Bullseye, but he generally doesn't kill on a whim, nor seek death for death's sake. To some people, that might make him less "evil" than some of the others mentioned.

But the real bottom line is that they're all bad guys, and neither side should be working with them if they can at all avoid it. ;)


For a Captain America, I think his general philosophy would be to NOT work with villians.

But for a Black Panther, I imagine he'll use whatever resource is available to him. Also, I doubt the "help" Doom would bring would be in the form of him beating up PRO guys. For that matter, I'm iffy whether Panther will go to that level. I imagine for both Doom and BP it'll be more about offering some political muscle and at most technology (though probalby not weapons).

I feel okay about Doom being involved if Panther is the one arranging this because I do think Panther (especially a Hudlin written Panther) can handle Doom if he needs to.

[Magneto Rocks]

Yeah, trying to say Doom is worse than Goblin or Bullseye is kind of like saying Apples are better than Oranges: It's a matter of perspective.

Doom is a megalomaniac of the highest order. He's a killer, certainly, but he doesn't seem to take particular pleasure in killing, nor does the need to kill or base violent urges drive him like say, Bullseye or Venom. He also has a long history of mildly redeeming qualities. He has a strong sense of honor. He feels responsible for and takes good care of the people he rules, though he does so through an absolute dictatorship.

Doom certainly thinks and operates "larger scale" than Goblin or Bullseye, but he generally doesn't kill on a whim, nor seek death for death's sake. To some people, that might make him less "evil" than some of the others mentioned.

But the real bottom line is that they're all bad guys, and neither side should be working with them if they can at all avoid it. ;)

The problem with Doom is that he always has a plan within a plan.

I think he is incalculably more dangerous than Bullseye or the Goblin because not only is he MUCH more intelligent, but Doom could quite literally use the plan as a stepping stone towards taking over the entire country. Certainly Doom doesn't kill for the pure sake of killing- nor does the Goblin when he's written well. Hell, the RED SKULL doesn't just kill anyone for the sake of it and I think we can all agree he's very very bad news to team up with as well.

Teaming up with Venom, Bullseye etc puts you at risk because you never know when they'll turn on you and stab you in the back. Teaming up with Doctor Doom on the other hand is putting a LOT more at stake. Doom has honour, he always keeps his word- but he has a very literal interpretation of 'his word' and frankly he's one of the most dangerous super-villains on Earth on a global scale, which can't be said for Venom, the Goblin or Bullseye.

Now true, Doom has teamed up with heroes for his own ends, normally to obliterate a huge threat to him- such as Onslaught. But if Doom teams up with EITHER side in the Civil War, it's not because there's a threat to him unless that threat is Clor or the SHRA. And that means there's no reason for him to stay faithful to that side at all.

Having Doom on your side in this war is potentially as dangerous as having him against you, because he doesn't have anything at STAKE. With Onslaught, he HAD to work with the heroes, otherwise he and Latveria were (pardon the pun) doomed.

Doctor Doom will never ever have a better oppurtunity than this to destroy all the heroes who plagued him and to take over America if he wants to. He's had a good month or more to plan exactly what he wants to do. At this stage, if either side teams with Doctor Doom, they are making a colossal mistake and the worst case scenario of teaming up with Doom is a thousand times worse than the worst case scenario of teaming up with Bullseye.

[Hulk Strongest One]

With this possible coaltion forming (check black panther 21) is there any hope for Tony and his crew? How did any one think that the Black Panther as the leader of one of the wealthiest most technological advance nations of the world would be able to stand by and do nothing.

Because to get involved in another nation's internal activities by the official head of state of another nation is an act of war?

Whatever writer is coming up with this idea is a bonehead.

Doom, on the other hand, is in the same boat, but he often gets involved anyway. Why he cares, though, I don't know.

The tide to the civil war is about to change.

It still boils down to Reed vs. Doom, and Reed usually comes out on top, barring PIS to move the story along.

tchalla is thinking that if tony had his way after the reg community who has resorted to using villians and placing the opposition in the neg zone finished with america would they allow for other nations with super powered beings to sit idly by?

And risk a war invading another country?

tchalla has agreed to work with namor and the resistance as the safer option for his nation. he trusts captain america and he distrusts iron man. i think cap would trust doom to be doom. hmm dooms has a choice to form a temporary alliance to help protect his nation and can then business as usual afterwards? sounds like a plan to me.

So the heads of state of three foreign nations are conspiring to wage war on the US? God, if only I got to be the president's press secretary in Marvel Earth...

[XPac]

The problem with Doom is that he always has a plan within a plan.

I think he is incalculably more dangerous than Bullseye or the Goblin because not only is he MUCH more intelligent, but Doom could quite literally use the plan as a stepping stone towards taking over the entire country. Certainly Doom doesn't kill for the pure sake of killing- nor does the Goblin when he's written well. Hell, the RED SKULL doesn't just kill anyone for the sake of it and I think we can all agree he's very very bad news to team up with as well.

Teaming up with Venom, Bullseye etc puts you at risk because you never know when they'll turn on you and stab you in the back. Teaming up with Doctor Doom on the other hand is putting a LOT more at stake. Doom has honour, he always keeps his word- but he has a very literal interpretation of 'his word' and frankly he's one of the most dangerous super-villains on Earth on a global scale, which can't be said for Venom, the Goblin or Bullseye.

Now true, Doom has teamed up with heroes for his own ends, normally to obliterate a huge threat to him- such as Onslaught. But if Doom teams up with EITHER side in the Civil War, it's not because there's a threat to him unless that threat is Clor or the SHRA. And that means there's no reason for him to stay faithful to that side at all.

Having Doom on your side in this war is potentially as dangerous as having him against you, because he doesn't have anything at STAKE. With Onslaught, he HAD to work with the heroes, otherwise he and Latveria were (pardon the pun) doomed.

Doctor Doom will never ever have a better oppurtunity than this to destroy all the heroes who plagued him and to take over America if he wants to. He's had a good month or more to plan exactly what he wants to do. At this stage, if either side teams with Doctor Doom, they are making a colossal mistake and the worst case scenario of teaming up with Doom is a thousand times worse than the worst case scenario of teaming up with Bullseye.


You're absolutely right... there is always that risk. I think Panther (especially a Hudlin written one) can keep him in check, but there's always a risk involved in dealing with Doom. You have to really weight risk vs reward before doing something like this... but if Panther can get a descent coalition with people like Namor and the Inhumans on board, Doom himself will have to weight the risks and rewards here. You gotta think long and hard about betraying Panther, Namor, and Black Bolt all in one time.

I don't think the registration is an immediate threat to Doom... but like just about every other world leader on the face of the earth I do suspect Doom is hesitant for the US to gain control of the Superhuman community (and possibly SHIELD which is suppossed to be UN terrirory) like it is doing now. I think even someone as powerful as Doom is uncomfortable with the balance of power shifting that much... and as we saw in Secret War, it's certainly not below SHIELD or the US hero community to invade his land. He more than any other nation probably has a right to be concerned.

[Magneto Rocks]

You're absolutely right... there is always that risk. I think Panther (especially a Hudlin written one) can keep him in check, but there's always a risk involved in dealing with Doom. You have to really weight risk vs reward before doing something like this... but if Panther can get a descent coalition with people like Namor and the Inhumans on board, Doom himself will have to weight the risks and rewards here. You gotta think long and hard about betraying Panther, Namor, and Black Bolt all in one time.

LEt's be honest. A Hudlin written Panther can keep Thor and the Sentry in check. At the same time. And agaun, this is Doom. If he joins a coalition with these guys, then it's because he has plans and means of destroying each and every other member- just in case they betray him. In any case, knowing Doom he would obliterate with rapid force one of them before the other two could respond.


I don't think the registration is an immediate threat to Doom... but like just about every other world leader on the face of the earth I do suspect Doom is hesitant for the US to gain control of the Superhuman community (and possibly SHIELD which is suppossed to be UN terrirory) like it is doing now. I think even someone as powerful as Doom is uncomfortable with the balance of power shifting that much... and as we saw in Secret War, it's certainly not below SHIELD or the US hero community to invade his land. He more than any other nation probably has a right to be concerned.

Exactly. Doctor Doom is concerned about the Super Human Registration Act because it will make his enemies far stronger and give them a greater chance of destroying him. Nice Pro-Reg argument :P

I'd still think not twice but about sixty-eight times before ever joining in a coalition with Victor Von Doom. And how do you think Sue would take it? She hasn't fought side by side with Doom since he, oh I dunno... killed the Thing, scarred Reed, burnt her alive, kidnapped her daughter and sent her son to Hell?

I don't think she would be exactly tolerant of Doom on her side.

[XPac]

LEt's be honest. A Hudlin written Panther can keep Thor and the Sentry in check. At the same time. And agaun, this is Doom. If he joins a coalition with these guys, then it's because he has plans and means of destroying each and every other member- just in case they betray him. In any case, knowing Doom he would obliterate with rapid force one of them before the other two could respond.




Exactly. Doctor Doom is concerned about the Super Human Registration Act because it will make his enemies far stronger and give them a greater chance of destroying him. Nice Pro-Reg argument :P

I'd still think not twice but about sixty-eight times before ever joining in a coalition with Victor Von Doom. And how do you think Sue would take it? She hasn't fought side by side with Doom since he, oh I dunno... killed the Thing, scarred Reed, burnt her alive, kidnapped her daughter and sent her son to Hell?

I don't think she would be exactly tolerant of Doom on her side.


When the Overmind was threatening the earth and took over Reed, Sue went to Doom for help . Doom actually has a long history working with heroes. As dangerous as Doom potentially is, in some ways he's one of the most reliable villians not only because of his effectiveness but because he does have a legit concern for the greater good and a certain code of honor.

And I'm sure Doom will have all sorts of contingency plans to deal with Panther and the rest if he needs to. But you're selling Panther short if you don't think he factored that hin and likewise has ways of dealing with Doom. I don't think even Doom will double cross Panther, Namor, and Black Bolt unless he has something to gain... and at this point I'd argue he has more to gain by helping them than double crossing them.

I'll simply say I suspect Panther (especially a Hudlin written one) will have it covered. Beyond that, we'll wait and see.

[PatchMadripoor]

I can see that. With the VERY pro-active and harsh tactics the Pro side has been using to capture and contain their own heroes, once they are done with domestic issues of the anti-side, the SHRA will turn to foreign threats, and Dr. Doom would rank very high on that list of opposing powers to dethrone.

It is to Doom's benefit (as ruler of Latveria) to join a international coalition against the SHRA. Not because he is a villian (one of the greats) but it suits his needs as a foreign head of state.

Politics make strange bedfellows.

[XPac]

I can see that. With the VERY pro-active and harsh tactics the Pro side has been using to capture and contain their own heroes, once they are done with domestic issues of the anti-side, the SHRA will turn to foreign threats, and Dr. Doom would rank very high on that list of opposing powers to dethrone.

It is to Doom's benefit (as ruler of Latveria) to join a international coalition against the SHRA. Not because he is a villian (one of the greats) but it suits his needs as a foreign head of state.

Politics make strange bedfellows.

Yeah... I think in this case, Doom is acting as a politician and not as a villian (though I suppose the more skeptical among us might argue that's just splitting hairs).

[Jmacq1]

Yeah... I think in this case, Doom is acting as a politician and not as a villian (though I suppose the more skeptical among us might argue that's just splitting hairs).

Not that it makes him any more trustworthy. ;)

But I suspect T'Challa won't exactly tell Cap that he's working with Doom.

[jackolover]

There is of course a potential danger in dealing with Doom... but I'd assume Panther knows what he's doing if he decides to bring Doom on board.

It's a Hudlin story, and we've already seen BP walk into Latveria and face off Doom in his own backyard, so, no. I don't think BP is going into a relationship with Doom, blind. And there could be a nice rectification if Doom does step out of line.

[jackolover]

tell that to Valeria, Baby Val, and Franklin.

Doom did save baby val when Johnny pleaded with him to save her.

[jackolover]

Yeah, trying to say Doom is worse than Goblin or Bullseye is kind of like saying Apples are better than Oranges: It's a matter of perspective.

Doom is a megalomaniac of the highest order. He's a killer, certainly, but he doesn't seem to take particular pleasure in killing, nor does the need to kill or base violent urges drive him like say, Bullseye or Venom. He also has a long history of mildly redeeming qualities. He has a strong sense of honor. He feels responsible for and takes good care of the people he rules, though he does so through an absolute dictatorship.

Doom certainly thinks and operates "larger scale" than Goblin or Bullseye, but he generally doesn't kill on a whim, nor seek death for death's sake. To some people, that might make him less "evil" than some of the others mentioned.

But the real bottom line is that they're all bad guys, and neither side should be working with them if they can at all avoid it. ;)

I think Doom is genuinly concerned at what can come out of an America with the SHRA. He talks like he can take advantage of it, but in the background, he sees an alliance with Namor and BP as a security against hegemony. It's starting to look cold war-ish when these things happen.

[Magneto Rocks]

Doom did save baby val when Johnny pleaded with him to save her.

Yes, he saved her so that he could prove he was better than Reed AND later turn her into his 'familiar' and use her as a conduit for sorcery. Around the time he sealed Franklin in Hell and was on the verge of killing or hurting Val. ("If anything happened to you... why that would drive your father positively mad, wouldn't it?) So yeah, I don't think the FF can really count that as a good deed.

When the Overmind was threatening the earth and took over Reed, Sue went to Doom for help . Doom actually has a long history working with heroes. As dangerous as Doom potentially is, in some ways he's one of the most reliable villians not only because of his effectiveness but because he does have a legit concern for the greater good and a certain code of honor.

True, but as I said at that stage Doom hadn't held her son hostage in Hell, set her face on fire, tortured her brother at length, planned to kill her daughter having used her as a conduit for sorcery, had the Thing beaten half to death....

You see why things may have changed?

And yes, but what DOOm determined as the greater good is very different from most heroes. He has a code of honour but that still doesn't JUSTIFY working with him.

This has gotten bogged down in discussing whether Doom would backstab them, which is hardly a major concern. The point I raised earlier was that working with Doom is just as morally questionable, if not MORE (because he is a larger scale villain and they have no means of controlling him) as the Thunderbolts army.

[jackolover]

For a Captain America, I think his general philosophy would be to NOT work with villians.

But for a Black Panther, I imagine he'll use whatever resource is available to him. Also, I doubt the "help" Doom would bring would be in the form of him beating up PRO guys. For that matter, I'm iffy whether Panther will go to that level. I imagine for both Doom and BP it'll be more about offering some political muscle and at most technology (though probalby not weapons).

I feel okay about Doom being involved if Panther is the one arranging this because I do think Panther (especially a Hudlin written Panther) can handle Doom if he needs to.

I think the Globals will offer their services to Cap, and Cap will use them in a strategy to put pressure on IM's side. I don't think Cap will just let the Globals act on their own, hoping they do the right thing. Cap will want full control, if the Globals come on board. I like the idea of Doom forming some devices to sabotage Shield operations. I think Doom will do anything to stop the progress of the SHRA going on in America. Even cooperating with the Anti-regs

[jackolover]

LEt's be honest. A Hudlin written Panther can keep Thor and the Sentry in check. At the same time. And agaun, this is Doom. If he joins a coalition with these guys, then it's because he has plans and means of destroying each and every other member- just in case they betray him. In any case, knowing Doom he would obliterate with rapid force one of them before the other two could respond.

Yeah, the Hudlin Doom would be a handful. Hudlin does add a lot of gumption to the Supers doesn't he? And as for Sue accepting Doom on her side, the CW has made some strange bedfellows, so I don't think people are thinking pre-CW any more. The Millar attitude atributed to the heros is a little out there now. So, just Doom taking this step to be apart of the Globals (If he does) is just the kind of concern the Millar group have put into their characters. God, Reed looks more like Doom than Doom does, at the moment.

[Magneto Rocks]

Yeah, the Hudlin Doom would be a handful. Hudlin does add a lot of gumption to the Supers doesn't he? And as for Sue accepting Doom on her side, the CW has made some strange bedfellows, so I don't think people are thinking pre-CW any more. The Millar attitude atributed to the heros is a little out there now. So, just Doom taking this step to be apart of the Globals (If he does) is just the kind of concern the Millar group have put into their characters. God, Reed looks more like Doom than Doom does, at the moment.

Disagree with the Reed/Doom thing, but even so.

I just can't see Sue being anything resembling comfortable with Doom on her side.

Maybe it';s because I see Doom as coming down PRO-REG if he wanted to destroy the law. It's simple; barter with Agent Hill- Latveria will announce it's support for the act (or even NOT announce it if that would be worse for public relations given that it's Latveria) in return for which SHIELD gives Latveria some good press. (perhaps he gives his word not to oppose the act or aid any forces opposing the act or some such thing)

Doom then sends in Doombots to enforce the law in the most brutal manner imaginable, causing huge collateral damage and gutting Sue and Johnny. The whole thing is technically perfectly legal. Instant MASSIVE bad press for the pro-reg side, doing a great deal to rectify public opinion. THAT is more Doom's style.

[jackolover]

Not that it makes him any more trustworthy. ;)

But I suspect T'Challa won't exactly tell Cap that he's working with Doom.

Hey, I think this has already come out about Doom. I think this is why Tony is preparing to give BP a cold welcome next issue, because Tony already knows Doom is in the picture as part of the Globals. Cap can't be unaware of this, if Tony knows. I don't know why, but information is filtering between the 2 sides for some reason.

[bluezulu]

hudlin panther? ahem. the world loved priest panther had a contingency plan for galactus, i think it would not be above reason for this current black panther (which has been retretconned to be the panther you all know and love) to be able to handle doom or namor. all things being even i would say that tchalla=namor=dr.doom as far as resources, leadership and ability to serve as king of a kingdom.

[Mjolnir]

heh. that's quite a NEW and FANTASTIC FOURsome lined up there.

Doom T'Challa, Namor and Storm.

heh.

[XPac]

heh. that's quite a NEW and FANTASTIC FOURsome lined up there.

Doom T'Challa, Namor and Storm.

heh.

Yeah... I gotta say the balance of power is starting to shift a bit. After CW #4, Cap apparently has the numbers as far as the superhero community. Panther is assembling a lot of political muscle. Looks like the ANTI's finally have a shot here.

[Jmacq1]

I dunno about that, really. Aside from the numbers thing. Until we see effects from this "alliance" showing up in the main "Civil War" series, it's pretty negligible.

After all, one of the whole points is to make sure that readers don't have to buy the tie-ins to understand what's going on in the main series. If suddenly in Civil War #7 they say "Oh, well the Latervia/Wakanda/Atlantis political alliance convinced the US to rethink the Registration Act!" and everyone that hasn't been reading "Black Panther" goes "Uh....what?" They're not doing a very good job of that.

Besides that, Latveria, Atlantis, and Wakanda are only three countries (two of which are pretty much "micro-nations" at that). We as readers tend to give them heavier weight because of who leads them, but the fact of the matter is that while this alliance can probably find a way to defeat any nation on Earth, beating every nation on Earth is a different proposition, and as we've seen, several of the "real" countries in the world seem to be in favor of registration or considering registration programs of their own (if they don't already have them). This "alliance" trying to run roughshod over the US offers up pretty much the exact same scenario that they claim to fear (A superhuman takeover) from a different angle (A superhuman monarch takeover). They have to walk a fine line or they make themselves as much a target as the US Supers. Not so much a problem for Namor because of geography, but Latveria and Wakanda are considerably easier to find.

All that, and how much political power does Wakanda, Latveria, and Atlantis really have? If I recall correctly (and I may not), only Wakanda has an actual vote in the UN (possibly Latveria as well, but I'm not sure on that one), and Atlantis only has "advisors" without any actual votes. Certainly, they have ways they can try to apply leverage, but most of those options would require outright warlike actions against the US (Disrupting shipping for Atlantis, Economic sanctions from Wakanda). Neither of which the UN is likely to approve when it's dealing with what many will see as a "U.S. Internal Matter." Namor and Doom might be OK with that (as well as Black Bolt currently), but I doubt T'Challa's aim is to make the people of the US suffer for the actions of their government and some of their supers.

Basically, unless it's touched upon/explained in the main series, this "semi-alliance" will probably be little more than a footnote.

[phantom1592]

Cap would work with Doom.

Doom is one of the smartest people on the planet and Cap wouldn't let a resource like that go to waste. As someone pointed out he has tried to work with him in the past in Secret Wars. I also remember Doom trying to help the others in one of the infinity books.

The PROBLEM is that Doom has too big of an Ego. He won't help unless everyone does what HE wants. Also you have to ASK for his help. On your knees would be best ;) As such Cap never bends to him and they go their seperate ways.

Doom would have no problems backstabbing anyone, but he wouldn't do it unless he has to. If his goal is to stop the SHRA and the alliance does so, then there is no need to betray anyone. In fact he will probably remind Captain America that he OWES Doom and then go back to his castle and gloat.

Doom can be a very subtle villian. He doesn't need to clear the whole chessboard to think he won. If the SHIELD super-army is disrupted and the heroes owe him a favor. That's a win :)

[XPac]

I dunno about that, really. Aside from the numbers thing. Until we see effects from this "alliance" showing up in the main "Civil War" series, it's pretty negligible.

After all, one of the whole points is to make sure that readers don't have to buy the tie-ins to understand what's going on in the main series. If suddenly in Civil War #7 they say "Oh, well the Latervia/Wakanda/Atlantis political alliance convinced the US to rethink the Registration Act!" and everyone that hasn't been reading "Black Panther" goes "Uh....what?" They're not doing a very good job of that.

Besides that, Latveria, Atlantis, and Wakanda are only three countries (two of which are pretty much "micro-nations" at that). We as readers tend to give them heavier weight because of who leads them, but the fact of the matter is that while this alliance can probably find a way to defeat any nation on Earth, beating every nation on Earth is a different proposition, and as we've seen, several of the "real" countries in the world seem to be in favor of registration or considering registration programs of their own (if they don't already have them). This "alliance" trying to run roughshod over the US offers up pretty much the exact same scenario that they claim to fear (A superhuman takeover) from a different angle (A superhuman monarch takeover). They have to walk a fine line or they make themselves as much a target as the US Supers. Not so much a problem for Namor because of geography, but Latveria and Wakanda are considerably easier to find.

All that, and how much political power does Wakanda, Latveria, and Atlantis really have? If I recall correctly (and I may not), only Wakanda has an actual vote in the UN (possibly Latveria as well, but I'm not sure on that one), and Atlantis only has "advisors" without any actual votes. Certainly, they have ways they can try to apply leverage, but most of those options would require outright warlike actions against the US (Disrupting shipping for Atlantis, Economic sanctions from Wakanda). Neither of which the UN is likely to approve when it's dealing with what many will see as a "U.S. Internal Matter." Namor and Doom might be OK with that (as well as Black Bolt currently), but I doubt T'Challa's aim is to make the people of the US suffer for the actions of their government and some of their supers.

Basically, unless it's touched upon/explained in the main series, this "semi-alliance" will probably be little more than a footnote.

Namor is on the Cover of Civil War 6 (or the Turner cover at least). I imagine the global alliance will be mentioned at least there, if at all.

As you mentioned, Doom and Namor will do whatever the hell they want (they have outright invaded the US), and the Inhumans are technically at war with them. Panther has to walk a the line between what he can actually do... though I'll wager Panther is smart enough to make a difference without him getting in hot water.

Honeslty, I'll wager pretty much ALL the other nations of the world will breath a sign of RELIEF if the US loses direct control over the superhuman community. They already seem to have almost direct control over SHIELD which is suppossed to be a UN force. I'm sure even the US allies will feel they are powerful enough without the supers on the payroll.

[Economist]

Seems to me, Priest's Panther wasn't the type of King to let superheros run around in Wakanda with out govt oversight. If he would let them at all. Sure he tried to protect his people, but he is a king not an elected official. Just as Doom would not allow heros in his country without oversight. These are allies that have different motives then Cap would.

Would Cap teaming with Doom really be that different then Tony's recruiting of villians. Unless Thanos picks a side, it is hard to find someone more dangerous than Doom.

[Jmacq1]

Namor is on the Cover of Civil War 6 (or the Turner cover at least). I imagine the global alliance will be mentioned at least there, if at all.

As you mentioned, Doom and Namor will do whatever the hell they want (they have outright invaded the US), and the Inhumans are technically at war with them. Panther has to walk a the line between what he can actually do... though I'll wager Panther is smart enough to make a difference without him getting in hot water.

Honeslty, I'll wager pretty much ALL the other nations of the world will breath a sign of RELIEF if the US loses direct control over the superhuman community. They already seem to have almost direct control over SHIELD which is suppossed to be a UN force. I'm sure even the US allies will feel they are powerful enough without the supers on the payroll.

I believe it's already been stated that several of the US allies are considering registration programs of their own. Israel is for certain (according to Sabra in Civil War: X-Men), and I think Britain and Canada may have been mentioned as well (though I'm not sure). That doesn't scream "sigh of relief" to me. That screams "Hey, for once these Yanks have a good idea!" Heck, given that 90 percent of Canada's superheroes have been government-funded and sponsored anyhow, they practically have de-facto registration anyway.

China and Russia both seem to already have mechanisms in place to try to insure that all "supers" are in the control of the government. Not always successful, but the effort is there.

So basically, a good chunk of the "real world" powers would appear to be Pro-Registration in some form or another. Not exactly chomping at the bit for the US program to get derailed. Bear in mind that while the SHRA puts a lot of superhuman power in the US/SHIELD's hands, it also (in theory) insures that Superheroes can't go willy-nilly invading other people's countries without getting punished for it (if they did it without official "orders").

Prior to the SHRA, Iron Man could practically have gone and blown up Beijing or Pyongyang (not that he -would- but still) and while realistically the US would publicly condemn him for it, they could also quite honestly claim "He doesn't work for us!"

That's not the case with the SHRA in place. Sure there are risks involved in giving the US government that much power (and personally I wouldn't trust them with it myself, and I'm an American citizen), but at least in -theory- the SHRA also provides certain protections for other nations as well. There's no overwhelming indication that the whole world is against the US on this, tacitly or otherwise.

[phantom1592]

Would Cap teaming with Doom really be that different then Tony's recruiting of villians. Unless Thanos picks a side, it is hard to find someone more dangerous than Doom.


OH yes. Big difference.

Doom's main purpose is to make the world a better place. Granted in his mind that means him as ruler. He's not a villian because he was made fun of as a child or because he wants revenge.... Well not counting that blasted richards of course. Doom does what he does because he feels it is right.

Doom is a highly accomplished Scientist, a sorceror, and tactition. There are MANY reasons to put Doom on a team, as long you can convince him its in his best interest. Is he dangerous? Ohhhh Yes. But his uses outweigh any moral issue. Dooms been an ally to Earth for years.

Bullseye and Venom kill people. That is ALL they are good for. Its their only skill. If you give Bullseye money, its because you want him to kill someone. Its impossible to use them and NOT be Evil. Some villians would be fine.... but the CHOICE they're using is my problem.

[XPac]

I believe it's already been stated that several of the US allies are considering registration programs of their own. Israel is for certain (according to Sabra in Civil War: X-Men), and I think Britain and Canada may have been mentioned as well (though I'm not sure). That doesn't scream "sigh of relief" to me. That screams "Hey, for once these Yanks have a good idea!" Heck, given that 90 percent of Canada's superheroes have been government-funded and sponsored anyhow, they practically have de-facto registration anyway.

China and Russia both seem to already have mechanisms in place to try to insure that all "supers" are in the control of the government. Not always successful, but the effort is there.

So basically, a good chunk of the "real world" powers would appear to be Pro-Registration in some form or another. Not exactly chomping at the bit for the US program to get derailed. Bear in mind that while the SHRA puts a lot of superhuman power in the US/SHIELD's hands, it also (in theory) insures that Superheroes can't go willy-nilly invading other people's countries without getting punished for it (if they did it without official "orders").

Prior to the SHRA, Iron Man could practically have gone and blown up Beijing or Pyongyang (not that he -would- but still) and while realistically the US would publicly condemn him for it, they could also quite honestly claim "He doesn't work for us!"

That's not the case with the SHRA in place. Sure there are risks involved in giving the US government that much power (and personally I wouldn't trust them with it myself, and I'm an American citizen), but at least in -theory- the SHRA also provides certain protections for other nations as well. There's no overwhelming indication that the whole world is against the US on this, tacitly or otherwise.

If I saw another country forming a giant superhero army, I'd try to do the same thing. That to me other countries running to register heroes scream a certain amount of fear in what the US is doing, as they are doing the exact same thing. It's basically turning the world into an arms race, with metahumans being the equivalent of nukes. That will be the global legacy of the registration if it sticks around.

[phantom1592]

I believe it's already been stated that several of the US allies are considering registration programs of their own. Israel is for certain (according to Sabra in Civil War: X-Men), and I think Britain and Canada may have been mentioned as well (though I'm not sure). That doesn't scream "sigh of relief" to me. That screams "Hey, for once these Yanks have a good idea!" Heck, given that 90 percent of Canada's superheroes have been government-funded and sponsored anyhow, they practically have de-facto registration anyway.

China and Russia both seem to already have mechanisms in place to try to insure that all "supers" are in the control of the government. Not always successful, but the effort is there.

So basically, a good chunk of the "real world" powers would appear to be Pro-Registration in some form or another. Not exactly chomping at the bit for the US program to get derailed. Bear in mind that while the SHRA puts a lot of superhuman power in the US/SHIELD's hands, it also (in theory) insures that Superheroes can't go willy-nilly invading other people's countries without getting punished for it (if they did it without official "orders").

Prior to the SHRA, Iron Man could practically have gone and blown up Beijing or Pyongyang (not that he -would- but still) and while realistically the US would publicly condemn him for it, they could also quite honestly claim "He doesn't work for us!"

That's not the case with the SHRA in place. Sure there are risks involved in giving the US government that much power (and personally I wouldn't trust them with it myself, and I'm an American citizen), but at least in -theory- the SHRA also provides certain protections for other nations as well. There's no overwhelming indication that the whole world is against the US on this, tacitly or otherwise.


The other countries are doing the same thing, but even they don't want America to do it. Remember that for whatever reason American Superheroes outnumber British and Russian superhumans by probably 50 to 1. If WW III became a war fought with Superhumans then America wins by default. Just because England wants to register their army of 100 doesn't mean they approve of America having an army of 1000s.


As for you other point, THAT is why I believe that Fury is Anti registration. Unlike Hill, he wasn't as much a control freak. He didn't WANT jurisdiction of the Superheroes. he prefered a few loose cannons he could manipulate into doing what he wanted while keeping "plausible deniablity"

Superheroes are a very.... rowdy bunch. I wouldn't want to be getting a phone call every time a battle crossed a county line.:o

[Jmacq1]

Oh, I don't disagree with you, but let's be honest, if they other countries of the world were that opposed to the Registration, they'd apply more direct political leverage than simply trying to emulate them.

You know, like if every country in the world suddenly stopped trading with the US.

Basically, if the world really wanted the US to -not- do registration, there are definitely ways they can make it happen. It might inconvenience them in the short term (American dollars being a huge part of the world economy), but sometimes that's what you have to do to win the long-term battle. And since the US is having such trouble getting the registration on-track, now would be the time for them to make those kinds of political moves. Instead, they opt for emulation instead of condemnation. That doesn't scream "we're all really against this but following along cause we have no choice". Of course, the Marvel writers' grasp of world politics might not exactly be greatly in-depth either.

And yes, I've maintained from the beginning that a balance between government-run and "disavowable" heroes would be a more ideal situation.

[XPac]

Oh, I don't disagree with you, but let's be honest, if they other countries of the world were that opposed to the Registration, they'd apply more direct political leverage than simply trying to emulate them.

You know, like if every country in the world suddenly stopped trading with the US.

Basically, if the world really wanted the US to -not- do registration, there are definitely ways they can make it happen. It might inconvenience them in the short term (American dollars being a huge part of the world economy), but sometimes that's what you have to do to win the long-term battle. And since the US is having such trouble getting the registration on-track, now would be the time for them to make those kinds of political moves. Instead, they opt for emulation instead of condemnation. That doesn't scream "we're all really against this but following along cause we have no choice". Of course, the Marvel writers' grasp of world politics might not exactly be greatly in-depth either.

And yes, I've maintained from the beginning that a balance between government-run and "disavowable" heroes would be a more ideal situation.

It's very hard to apply direct pressure to the US because that usually hurts the other country MORE than it hurts the US. US is one of the most self-sufficent countries on the planet.

And I think Black Panters little group is a symbollic way of showing other countries against the registration. Because it's a comic, you have to largely deal with metaphors more than anything else. Having real life countries use trade embargos against the US really has no place in a comic book because it's frankly BORING. If a writer in a comic wants so show the countries of the world rising against the US they're going to use Wakanda and Latveria rather than France or Britian.

Civil War dips it's tows into real life politics, but you only want to do so far. It's a funner book when you use fictional countries run by comic book characters rather than using the real life countries.

[Magneto Rocks]

All that, and how much political power does Wakanda, Latveria, and Atlantis really have? If I recall correctly (and I may not), only Wakanda has an actual vote in the UN (possibly Latveria as well, but I'm not sure on that one),

Well, Latveria has a UN representative at the very least. (Avengers #500)

OH yes. Big difference.

Doom's main purpose is to make the world a better place. Granted in his mind that means him as ruler. He's not a villian because he was made fun of as a child or because he wants revenge.... Well not counting that blasted richards of course. Doom does what he does because he feels it is right.

Doom is a highly accomplished Scientist, a sorceror, and tactition. There are MANY reasons to put Doom on a team, as long you can convince him its in his best interest. Is he dangerous? Ohhhh Yes. But his uses outweigh any moral issue. Dooms been an ally to Earth for years.

Bullseye and Venom kill people. That is ALL they are good for. Its their only skill. If you give Bullseye money, its because you want him to kill someone. Its impossible to use them and NOT be Evil. Some villians would be fine.... but the CHOICE they're using is my problem.

I disagree- Doom is an ally of Doom, and nothing more. He doesn't want to gain domination for the sake of humanity, he wants it because in his mind it is his rightful place. He SHOULD be world leader, it's what he is destined to be- those urchins who stand before him are simply impeding a rightful ascension. Doubtful he feels it would benefit all, but that's hardly his main reason for doing it.

I STRONGLY disagree with 'his uses outwegh any moral issues'. Firslty because Tony's sins are nowhere near the level of Doom's, but also because there are an ENORMOUS number of moral issues and that sounds like 'ends justify the means', which is exactly what the pro-reg side are accused of. You said yourself, he will ally with you as long as it's in his own his best interests. Not Earth's, but his OWN.

And being Doctor Doom, there's no such thing as 'too far'. Ally with Doom and you are standing on the edge of a knife- as long as there is no immedaite massive threat, he will play his games, and he will have another plan and he will win. With Venom and Bullseye they may kill, but worst case scenario you're looking at a murderous rampage. With Doom, worst case scenario is the destruction of democracy and freedom.

Judge for yourself which is worse.

[XPac]

Well, Latveria has a UN representative at the very least. (Avengers #500)



I disagree- Doom is an ally of Doom, and nothing more. He doesn't want to gain domination for the sake of humanity, he wants it because in his mind it is his rightful place. He SHOULD be world leader, it's what he is destined to be- those urchins who stand before him are simply impeding a rightful ascension. Doubtful he feels it would benefit all, but that's hardly his main reason for doing it.




I think BOTH assumptions are true ... I think Doom truelly believes that that him gaining domination of the earth benefits the earth. And as he proved in Emperor Doom, in a lot of tangilbe ways he was right as he eliminated war, poverty, homelessness, and racism across the globe (albeit he achieved that in a horribly unethical manner).

I do think he believes that he's doing it for the betterment of mankind. The fact of the matter is, everytime he's ever actually suceeded in conquering the world he ended up really really bored.

I think that's an aspect of Doom which seperates him from most world conquerers... and why I do think he sides with the heroes far more often than almost any villian out there.

[Yaw]

Because to get involved in another nation's internal activities by the official head of state of another nation is an act of war?

Whatever writer is coming up with this idea is a bonehead.



Hmm, do you pay attention to real life global politics? Nations get involved with other nations' internal affairs all the time. The good ol U.S. of A. does it all the time. Essentially this coalition is like being formed on for the same reason the U.S, appealed the U.N. to interfere with Iraqi politics: the stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction or in Marvel's words, amassing an army of superhumans.

It makes perfect sense.

[jackolover]

I think BOTH assumptions are true ... I think Doom truelly believes that that him gaining domination of the earth benefits the earth. And as he proved in Emperor Doom, in a lot of tangilbe ways he was right as he eliminated war, poverty, homelessness, and racism across the globe (albeit he achieved that in a horribly unethical manner).

I do think he believes that he's doing it for the betterment of mankind. The fact of the matter is, everytime he's ever actually suceeded in conquering the world he ended up really really bored.

I think that's an aspect of Doom which seperates him from most world conquerers... and why I do think he sides with the heroes far more often than almost any villian out there.

Doom does appear to the apocalyptic world leader (like the John Connor in Terminator), who is out of time and place, but has his heart in the right place. When things get bad - really bad - who do they call? For some reason, Doom stands for the last resort, if you have no where to go.

I can imagine a world, destroyed by war (much like the Earth 2 Doom), where Doom would coalesce the remnant of humanity for a fight back. Doom would not be someone accepted in the stable earth we are currently experiencing.

[sookibong]

Well, Latveria has a UN representative at the very least. (Avengers #500)



I disagree- Doom is an ally of Doom, and nothing more. He doesn't want to gain domination for the sake of humanity, he wants it because in his mind it is his rightful place. He SHOULD be world leader, it's what he is destined to be- those urchins who stand before him are simply impeding a rightful ascension. Doubtful he feels it would benefit all, but that's hardly his main reason for doing it.

I STRONGLY disagree with 'his uses outwegh any moral issues'. Firslty because Tony's sins are nowhere near the level of Doom's, but also because there are an ENORMOUS number of moral issues and that sounds like 'ends justify the means', which is exactly what the pro-reg side are accused of. You said yourself, he will ally with you as long as it's in his own his best interests. Not Earth's, but his OWN.

And being Doctor Doom, there's no such thing as 'too far'. Ally with Doom and you are standing on the edge of a knife- as long as there is no immedaite massive threat, he will play his games, and he will have another plan and he will win. With Venom and Bullseye they may kill, but worst case scenario you're looking at a murderous rampage. With Doom, worst case scenario is the destruction of democracy and freedom.

Judge for yourself which is worse.


Well his motivations seem rather gray in Secret Wars. Doom is a visionary who believes he alone has the intelligence and will to rule and he's fought long and hard to get where he is. He feels what he does is for a greater good of some kind, even if he is deluded.
Personally, I would be far more comfortable in a room with Doom than Venom or Bullseye. And ultimately, the job of a hero is to protect innocent lives regardless of the state of democracy and feedom. For this reason alone I would think that Cap views Bullseye with far more disdain than Doom.

[AllisterH]

The other countries are doing the same thing, but even they don't want America to do it. Remember that for whatever reason American Superheroes outnumber British and Russian superhumans by probably 50 to 1. If WW III became a war fought with Superhumans then America wins by default. Just because England wants to register their army of 100 doesn't mean they approve of America having an army of 1000s.




Except for one tiny little problem.

The US IRL can do this right now. Seriously, the US Navy in terms of tonnage has 5 times the weight as the next 5 biggest navies COMBINED and this doesn't factor in that 2 of those navies are technologically at least 2 decades behind.

The real reason why America doesn't go conquering the world is because Americans don't want it. While comics like to portray the government as trying to take over the world, the fact is, the US gov't could care less what Nepal does as long as it doesn't threaten the security of America.

[XPac]

Except for one tiny little problem.

The US IRL can do this right now. Seriously, the US Navy in terms of tonnage has 5 times the weight as the next 5 biggest navies COMBINED and this doesn't factor in that 2 of those navies are technologically at least 2 decades behind.

The real reason why America doesn't go conquering the world is because Americans don't want it. While comics like to portray the government as trying to take over the world, the fact is, the US gov't could care less what Nepal does as long as it doesn't threaten the security of America.

Conventional warfare and superhero warfare would be completely different things.

As powerful as the American military is, any military action on their part would cost millions of dollars. And as advanced as our military it, even we can lose hundreds of lives.

What previously cost millions and requires hundred of people can now cost next to nothing utilizing half a dozen people with the same level of effectiveness. If you're america, that sounds terribly efficient. If you're the rest of the world, that's just terrifying. That doesn't mean they will think the US would proceed to conquer the world... but given how SHIELD has already taken control of SHIELD I don't think any nation would particularly support the notion of the balance of power shifting MORE in the favor of a single nation.

[AllisterH]

But as another poster mentioned, the current situation actually makes it easier for the US.

If a random super assassinates the president of Timbuktu, the US has plausible denialability since quite rightly, they can argue, "What do you want us to do? We don't even know who that guy was", whereas with the situation of closely monitored heroes/supers, the US is automatically on the hook.

Its kind of similar to the problem the US is having in the DCU as shown in Checkmate & 52. The American supers regularly violate sovereign's countries Airspaces, beat up a villain by destroying property and having the nation deal with the rebuilding AND they also have the habit of destroying any alien tech that lands on the planet.

So even though the DC Earth has been invaded, the downed spaceships are apparently destroyed by American superheroes. Needless to say, the US govt's response of "Not our fault, they don't work for us, hell, the do the same over here" is NOT flying well with the rest of the DCU nations.

[Alpow]

I believe it's already been stated that several of the US allies are considering registration programs of their own. Israel is for certain (according to Sabra in Civil War: X-Men), and I think Britain and Canada may have been mentioned as well (though I'm not sure).


Canada had registration and it was ruled unconstitutional, we haven't heard anything on Britain (Micromax made no allusion to the fact, he was simply there to help out the US) except Storm’s opinion that the UK would pass one (something T'Challa didn't consider all that likely because he was thinking about bringing Captain Britain in to lead the globals, which I thought odd until I remembered he is also a Monarch).

If Marvel universe UK politics is anything like real world UK (similar to how the Marvel US is supposed to be like real US) then registration isn’t that likely in the wake of the US doing it.

[Alpow]

Except for one tiny little problem.

The US IRL can do this right now.

A big navy is all well and good but it wouldn't help you invade anybody with a sizeable air force and a defensive advantage, the US for example couldn't invade the EU (or some of the more sizeable parts thereof).

Seriously, the US Navy in terms of tonnage has 5 times the weight as the next 5 biggest navies COMBINED and this doesn't factor in that 2 of those navies are technologically at least 2 decades behind.


Except the US would enter a MAD situation by going against any of the other true nuclear powers (or anybody they were willing to go to war to protect), when you have people who can sneak into a country and disable silos/mobile platforms/submarines/bombers and even intercept missiles in flight, nuclear deterrence becomes a much more risky proposition.

[PatchMadripoor]

This topic is about the coming allegiance of Doom, T'Challa, Namor and Black Bolt vs. the SHRA

[Lanowar]

This topic is about the coming allegiance of Doom, T'Challa, Namor and Black Bolt vs. the SHRA

Yea but at the same Same time Doom has his mits everywhere he's neither anti nor pro he's all about DOOM and what he can get out of it. An inital part of the arguement is that Namor and Doom are more intrested in there intrests or in Namor's case the intrests of his nation. He's already sent advance agents in Frontline. A member of alantian royalty is dead and the american goverment seemed more intrested in controlling those who fight injustice then the one person who actually killed her. Though Nitro is well... how do we say "indisposed" at the moment since they took it into there own hands to get him.

Those who read Captain America know that Doom is'nt above an alliance with anyone if it helps advance his station.

[PatchMadripoor]

Not only is she a leader of the faction of the X-men and a formidable power in her own right, she also commands the Morlocks (of the 198 who remain loyal to her), and they are literally the embedded within the U.S., and a branch of the foreign Thieves Guild of her youth left to her by her master theif Achmed el-Gibar.

[bluezulu]

Not only is she a leader of the faction of the X-men and a formidable power in her own right, she also commands the Morlocks (of the 198 who remain loyal to her), and they are literally the embedded within the U.S. and a branch of the foreign thieves guild of her youth.
--------------------------
great point and much like the insurgents in iraq, a small gorilla warfare group that believe they are fighting for their lives can be very very dangerous and formidable opponents.

[jaxcs]

Personally, I would be far more comfortable in a room with Doom than Venom or Bullseye. And ultimately, the job of a hero is to protect innocent lives regardless of the state of democracy and feedom. For this reason alone I would think that Cap views Bullseye with far more disdain than Doom.

Sure, until Doom tells you to fetch his slippers and you tell him that there aren't any slippers around and he vaporizes you. Or maybe he turns you into a toad and then he vaporizes for daring to speak when you should be on your way to the store to purchase them as a good servant should. Doom is every bit as volatile as Venom or Bullseye. I wouldn't want to be in a room with any of them.

[Markavian]

Doom ..Black Bolt.....Namor ALL recently fought withy the Panther or met and parted under very poor terms. Also if Namor and the Panther get wind of Doom sucking up to the Skull it will assure their Distrust/ Hatred of him stays the dominating factor on how they view him.As for the Inhumans in New Avengers 24 they pretty much assured their continued Neutrality.With Sentry joining Tonys side it seems a lock on a Pro Reg victory ..Maybe a costly victory but a Victory none the less.

[jackolover]

Doom ..Black Bolt.....Namor ALL recently fought withy the Panther or met and parted under very poor terms. Also if Namor and the Panther get wind of Doom sucking up to the Skull it will assure their Distrust/ Hatred of him stays the dominating factor on how they view him.As for the Inhumans in New Avengers 24 they pretty much assured their continued Neutrality.With Sentry joining Tonys side it seems a lock on a Pro Reg victory ..Maybe a costly victory but a Victory none the less.

War makes strange bedfellows. I will wait and see how this alliance comes about, in the next few issues of Panther. Just getting these characters in the same room will be well worth it. And I am so looking forward to this strong, assured, Panther that Reg Hudlin has put up.

I am a bit concerned that Namor manuevered Panther into the leadership. Is it a ploy by Namor to stroke Panthers ego to make him the leader? Any one of them could be the leader. Why Panther? I fear Panther is being put up as some kind of scapegoat being the leader of this Global resistance, if it all goes belly up.

[lightning]

The underlying principle behind the whole thing is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which is just a fancy way of saying you'll get stabbed in the back down the line. While Doom might share Namor's concern that the SHRA could potentially lead to Ultimates-style interventions in foreign countries - which as the head of a sovereign state, he'd almost have to oppose by default, there's no question that he's got something else in the works. I mean, the guy is working with the freakin' Red Skull on something, which is never a good sign.

Alliances born out of expediency and convenience are all fine and good so long as everyone agrees. Once someone doesn't the whole thing comes apart, since there's no real reason to stay together otherwise.

[Hulk Strongest One]

Conventional warfare and superhero warfare would be completely different things.

As powerful as the American military is, any military action on their part would cost millions of dollars. And as advanced as our military it, even we can lose hundreds of lives.

With a gun in your hand, you're more "super" than 90% of Marvel's superheroes, power-wise. But for the fact they are money-making characters who therefore can't die, Cap, Batman, Flash, any number this side of Superman, Hulk, and Thor would long since have gone bye-bye.

Even within comic rules, characters get shot, or just barely avoid being shot, all the time. If a writer needed the US military to go nuts on superheroes, the vast majority would be rounded up in no time. "Government heroes vs. rogue heroes" is only needed for a small subset of heroes, if you ask me.

What previously cost millions and requires hundred of people can now cost next to nothing utilizing half a dozen people with the same level of effectiveness.

Now this is a good point. If you've got it, use it.

If you're america, that sounds terribly efficient. If you're the rest of the world, that's just terrifying. That doesn't mean they will think the US would proceed to conquer the world... but given how SHIELD has already taken control of SHIELD I don't think any nation would particularly support the notion of the balance of power shifting MORE in the favor of a single nation.

Yes, but what would they do about it? Doom and Namor are the acknowledged leaders of their nation (well, I am not sure about Namor's current status but he has been in the past.) Is Black Panther acknowledged as the leader or does he maintain a secret identity?

And just because use of superheroes might be more efficient does not preclude use of regular military if the situation calls for it. "You didn't take out XYZ because the heroes weren't available? Please resign now."

[XPac]

Doom ..Black Bolt.....Namor ALL recently fought withy the Panther or met and parted under very poor terms. Also if Namor and the Panther get wind of Doom sucking up to the Skull it will assure their Distrust/ Hatred of him stays the dominating factor on how they view him.As for the Inhumans in New Avengers 24 they pretty much assured their continued Neutrality.With Sentry joining Tonys side it seems a lock on a Pro Reg victory ..Maybe a costly victory but a Victory none the less.

The Inhumans are pretty much already going to war with the US government. So even if they're not ANTI registration, they're still ANTI US government.

If anything the Inhumans are less neutral... they've already declared war. It has nothing to do with the registration, but nonetheless it is a case where there's a common enemy even if it's for a different purpose.

[zulu801]

With a gun in your hand, you're more "super" than 90% of Marvel's superheroes, power-wise. But for the fact they are money-making characters who therefore can't die, Cap, Batman, Flash, any number this side of Superman, Hulk, and Thor would long since have gone bye-bye.

Even within comic rules, characters get shot, or just barely avoid being shot, all the time. If a writer needed the US military to go nuts on superheroes, the vast majority would be rounded up in no time. "Government heroes vs. rogue heroes" is only needed for a small subset of heroes, if you ask me.



Now this is a good point. If you've got it, use it.



Yes, but what would they do about it? Doom and Namor are the acknowledged leaders of their nation (well, I am not sure about Namor's current status but he has been in the past.) Is Black Panther acknowledged as the leader or does he maintain a secret identity?

And just because use of superheroes might be more efficient does not preclude use of regular military if the situation calls for it. "You didn't take out XYZ because the heroes weren't available? Please resign now."

Black Panther, King T'Challa, is the leader of Wakanda and T'Challa's identity is not a secret. All world, business, scientist, military and religious leaders know the identity of the Black Panther.

[NickThompson]

Canada had registration and it was ruled unconstitutional, we haven't heard anything on Britain (Micromax made no allusion to the fact, he was simply there to help out the US) except Storm’s opinion that the UK would pass one (something T'Challa didn't consider all that likely because he was thinking about bringing Captain Britain in to lead the globals, which I thought odd until I remembered he is also a Monarch).

If Marvel universe UK politics is anything like real world UK (similar to how the Marvel US is supposed to be like real US) then registration isn’t that likely in the wake of the US doing it.
I hope that if this is an ongoing plot that we see people on both sides internationally.

[jackolover]

I hope that if this is an ongoing plot that we see people on both sides internationally.


I hope we get some sort of delegation set up, that comes up to Tony with a warning. T'Challa remembers that moment when Tony stuck his mask into T'Challa's face and said - you're making a big mistake. I'd like to see T'Challa walk up to Tony and say - not as big as you're going to make, if you even talk about going International. Then show a fleet of flying Wakandan War vessels manned by Atlantians, with Doom, hovering on one of his levitation discs. Doom could say - I know where your little Neg Prison is, Tin Man, and I know how to open it.

It would send a clear message, that just because America assembles a large army of SH's, doesn't mean they have unhindered access to anywhere in the world. Then, If IM has to chase Cap to Hawaii, 3 busloads of Wakadian warships assemble on the west coast. Panther says - touch one hair on Caps head and good bye LA. Whats it gonna be?

That's what I hope goes down.

[curefreak]

Is it possible theyre going to take a wait and see approach to all of this?, instead of just jumping into the fire as it where.

[jackolover]

Is it possible theyre going to take a wait and see approach to all of this?, instead of just jumping into the fire as it where.

That would be boring.

Namor - but if Captain America's efforts cannot curb Tony Stark and Reed Richards' schemes, then a global response is certain.

Panther - (Storm - whats really bothering you about this?) You mean besides violating the non-aggression policy that is a cornerstone of our nations history for centuries?

This doesn't sound like a wait and see approach. This sounds like a proactive response, is planned. Granted, there has to be some evidence of Caps failure before the globals act, so from that perspective, they have to wait and see. But after a setback to cap, I see some intervention on the anti-side.

If, after CW5, (where the new TBolts go at the anti's), and we see a shift in the balance of power towards Stark, I can see the Globals intervene.

[curefreak]

That would be boring.

Namor - but if Captain America's efforts cannot curb Tony Stark and Reed Richards' schemes, then a global response is certain.

Panther - (Storm - whats really bothering you about this?) You mean besides violating the non-aggression policy that is a cornerstone of our nations history for centuries?

This doesn't sound like a wait and see approach. This sounds like a proactive response, is planned. Granted, there has to be some evidence of Caps failure before the globals act, so from that perspective, they have to wait and see. But after a setback to cap, I see some intervention on the anti-side.

If, after CW5, (where the new TBolts go at the anti's), and we see a shift in the balance of power towards Stark, I can see the Globals intervene.When is the next issue supposed to come out?and why did i hear that penance on the T-bolts?

[jackolover]

I just re-read Cable and Deadpool 30, and it looks like Cable could be added to the Globals, as well. Cable already offered Cap a trip to his country, when Caps side looses, so there's your trigger point for the globals to act.

[ADamiani]

With this possible coaltion forming (check black panther 21) is there any hope for Tony and his crew? How did any one think that the Black Panther as the leader of one of the wealthiest most technological advance nations of the world would be able to stand by and do nothing. The tide to the civil war is about to change.


Cap would never make such a faustian bargain.

Doom, on the other hand, might screw with things just to piss Richards off.