Boys In Bop

[Gail Simone]

Do you feel Oracle would have guys on the team as full-timers, or not?

Gail

[Jeff Brady]

I see Babs as an EOE.

[Constantine Drakon]

Would Oracle? Sure. Why not? She wouldn't care about gender as long as it was what's best for saving the world. That doesn't mean I'd want guys on the team for the book. She'd probably ask a few guys, if she was recruiting, and if it just so happened that the only people to say "yes" to her were women, well that's not the character's fault, is it?

Too bad the Question is in 52. Oh well, that series can't last forever.

[Corrina]

Oracle would. And has, I suppose. There's Ted and Jason Bard, as two examples.

But I kinda like the idea of BoP being the one place where I can find female heroines written well.

[Gail Simone]

That answer SEEMS correct, but at the same time, it FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical.

Weird.

Gail

[suedenim]

Only if they're cross-dressers or transgendered (kidding, but that's actually something I *would* kinda like to see handled with both taste and humor* somewhere....)


* - humor, as in "not a totally turgid '70s "relevance" type treatment

[Indigo Al]

No Dick in Bops.

Nightwing has his own mag already.

BoPs doesn't have to be so all-inclusive. Would Charlie's Angels take on a male angel?

[titanfan]

I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical.

Honestly, that's how I've seen it too. If you were to ask her why no men, she'd give you (on the surface) a rational explanation--but ultimately it would be easy to pick apart the argument.

And when it comes to a lot of things (Dick, Wheelchair) Babs isn't always logical--although she tries to be. It's no coincidence that she never invited Blue Beetle or Jason Bard or the various men she worked with to be a part of the team. I always saw Savant and Creote as part timers.

[Weetomuncher]

I think BOP works better as a girly book as it holds a special place in the market as there aren't many girl teams out there.

Adding permanent male members would just make it into another Outsiders or Teen Titans. The all girl team format is great as it is.

[heystacy]

Do you feel Oracle would have guys on the team as full-timers, or not?

Gail


Good question. Would Babs or the other ladies find the guy(s) distracting?

Having leading ladies in Birds has been great reading pleasure. The dynamics would change, perhaps, but I would be open to some changes.

I still miss Creote and Savant.

Question: Does Babs think guys would not follow her orders?

[Gail Simone]

The cross-dressing thing almost happened. My very first bop pitch had a guy dressing as Black Canary, trying to take up her mantle.

Gail

[Corrina]

That answer SEEMS correct, but at the same time, it FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical.

Weird.

Gail

Well...hmm...Ted did sort of stumble onto Oracle as her cyber-buddy. And Jason was her fiance. And he kinda accidentally stumbled into the operation with Canary in the first BoP arc. So she didn't go out of her way to hire either of them. Except Jason, in the Ra's arc, but I think Babs was running a fever that arc, she was so out of character. So we can forget that, if you like.

:puts out couch:

Shrink: Now, Ms. Gordon, why have all your operatives been men?

Babs: They haven't. I've used men.

Shrink: Sparingly, Ms. Gordon. Sparingly. Do you not trust men, hmm?

Babs: I trust men just fine. I trust my dad. My adopted dad, I mean. My biological dad was a drunk and...well, not fun. But my adopted dad I trust implicitly, except for the part where I never told him I was Batgirl or Oracle. And I trust Batman. Except for the part where he never listens to me and shuts me out and gets Stephanie Brown killed and didn't work hard enough to save the sanity of the young woman I gave my Batgirl mantle to. And I trust Dick. Except for the part where he slept with that murderess who tried to kill me and then shut me out and is busy boffing the redhead who looks like me...

Shrink: hmm....cleans glasses....Ms. Gordon, I ask again, do you not trust men?

Babs: :crosses arms over chest:

Shrink: Ms. Gordon, did any of the male heroes help you get started?

Babs: Of course. There was Batman. Except he said to quit but then he sent Robin to teach me anyway. And there was...um....well....

Shrink: Hour's up, Ms. Gordon. I think we've made excellent progress.

Babs: I want a female shrink.

[Noah Johnson]

Seems to me Babs has seen a LOT of superhero teams where the female members get shunted into backup roles while some swaggering alpha male tells everyone what to do. Nothing wrong with her not wanting that to happen to her team.

Also, she lives in Gotham City, so it's likely that every time she thinks of it hypothetically, there's one name that comes immediately to mind. "Hmmm... what would happen if we got some guys in? Like, in theory, what if Batman were... OH DEAR CHRIST NO."

[suedenim]

The cross-dressing thing almost happened. My very first bop pitch had a guy dressing as Black Canary, trying to take up her mantle.

Gail

That would've been interesting!

Back on the general question, I think the Birds of Prey are more tight-knit, more "intimate," than a lot of groups, not to mention smaller. On the JLA or Avengers, for instance, there's an implicit "best heroes available" criteria, and while they need to be able to work together, it's not necessarily intolerable if some don't particularly like each other.

But BoP is more like (for "core" people, and although it's an incomplete and not 100% accurate description) "Babs and her best friends." And it's not especially remarkable that her best supehero-type friends would also be women.

[TomStillwell]

The core should always be female. That's just how it is.

Strong support characters can and should be male.

[DungeonmasterJim]

It makes sense to have Oracle pick people based on abilities but I've always felt BoP was one of those all female groups. I've always had this feeling that Oracle at least prefers an all female group first with supporting males as a second.

DM Jim

[Arawn]

That answer SEEMS correct, but at the same time, it FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical.

Weird.

Gail


Could the all girls team be part of how Babs deals with what happenned to her? Not only the trauma of all the beatings she took as Batgirl, but the attack from the Joker.

When I was a trauma concellor they used to break men and women down into about 4 types of reactions.

Babs seems to have type 2, she's been emotionally turned off to the point that it's really hard for her to be anything but numb and untrusting towards any guy. She will subconciously push them away, due to the fact that she still can't completely purge herself of the fear of a repeat attack. And as such tries to only be around women, and more importantly to her, women who have sufferred in a similar way.

But then I'm constantly being told how little I know, and 18 months of training 3 1/2 years of actual use I'm probably very wrong about how this appears. I'll go back to the hole I was told to hide in.

[TCJohnson]

My theory is this...

Babs is a femenist. Not a hard core one that would never ask for man's help, but a femenist all the same.

Birds of Prey is, for Babs even if she does not admit it, a rehabilitation clinic for wounded super heroines. She first rehabilitated herself after her physical wound, and she is now seeking out superheroines with emotional wounds. This is what caused that rift between Barbara and Huntress...she was trying to rehabilitate Huntress by manipulating her.

And for Barbara, it is a little bit like what Lea Hernandez is doing with giving grants to female cartoonists. It is not that she hates men, but she wants to see other super heroines succeed. Part of the reason she started out was to show she can be just as good as Batman and Robin. Now she wants others to follow in her footsteps. She seeks out heroines that have a lot of potential but hurdle is holding them back. Barbara wants to help them get over that hurdle.

Her feminism is not so strong that she would refuse to accept help from male heroes. Her idealism is always tempered with a real world practicality. She would definitely recruit men for missions. But she wouldn't let them into her inner circle because it really is not for them.

Of course, I also think this is all on an unconscious level. If a man were to join she would feel uncomfortable but she wouldn't know why...and the why is because she wants to help those around her. BUt to help people on an emotional level (as opposed stopping villains from beating up on them) she has to be able to sympathize with them and get in their heads...and she cannot do that as well with men as she can with women.

In order for her to accept a man in her inner circle, that man would have to have a lot of potential to make it worth her time and have an wound so deep that Barbara can't help but want to try hard to help him. Of course, with somebody that emotionally scared it could very well backfire on her.

[Super Sonic]

I'd love to see more guys appearing more in BoP, as of right now, I'm a bit sick of the all women cast (even the villains seem to be women) and would love if a bit of male company was injected into the mix.

[Drink]

I don't mind guest appearances and all that, but as full time? As said, it wouldn't feel right. The team has been all-female to date, and it's one of its hooks.

Not sure how you'd rationalise that from the character's prespective though, short of Barbara putting a sign up outside the tower that says "No boyz allowed" with the proper reversal of certain letters and poor penmanship. :D

[Damo]

Gail: There was an issue of Avengers there a few years back, where the team was trying to add some new members to their then-current core roster. It was pointed out that the team was entirely white. They wanted to be picking the best people for the job, but they couldn't deny the fact that there was some symbolism to the team. Their end decision was that they would start by contacting old Avengers to try and get them to rejoin, but they would start by asking the old Avengers that weren't white.

I think Babs might think of taking a similar route. She wants the best people for the job, but she comes from a background of being told that women can't do it. She'll ask the most qualified people if they want to join the team, but after she makes a list of the most qualified people - both men and women - she'd ask the women first. Especially if she sees qualified women that aren't getting what she considers to be equal opportunities. That's just how I see her thinking though.

[dazzler_slave]

Personally, I prefer the book being an all girl book. So many female characters are written badly in comics, or are relegated to the token girl, the damsel in distress or just wallpaper. It is so refreshing to see strong well written characters who are women. That is something that has always set BOP apart. From it's very beginning and continuing today with you Gail, the women of BOP are strong women without being caricatures or amazons. They are human and flawed but great role models. I like having male heroes drop in for the occasional job, like Blue Beetle, Wildcat and Savant & Creote all did, but I think te core should always be female.

As for Babs' reason...I figure she just feels more comfortable working with other women. This could be because when she was Batgirl she was the sole girl in a boys club full of alpha males. I imagine this would have been difficult for her, especially considering how overbearing Batman can be, and how overprotective Nightwing can be. This may just be her reaction to her past. Am I making any sense, or just babbling?

[Dr Ray Palmer]

I think in "real life" Babs would probably have some male agents (if nothing else I bet she would've had Blue Beetle on the payroll), but for story purposes, I think it's more fun and interesting to have an all-female cast.

Notice, though, that when Huntress was off the team following her blowup with Oracle at the end of "Hero Hunters," the two "agents" she recruited were both men (Creote and Savant). Well, and Josh. Meaningful? I doubt it, but it's fun to think about.

I miss Savant and Creote, too. I just re-read "Of Like Minds" the other night and had forgotten how much fun they are.

[ChadtheH]

Lately, I've gotta say, BOP begins to feel like a depository for every female DC character who doesn't quite have enough following for her own series. Kind of an est-fest book (pardon my lack of PC). I'd like to see it streamlined back to BC and Oracle a little more, but still be a female-driven book.


That answer SEEMS correct, but at the same time, it FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up.
Gail

Here here. Perhaps the closeness of that working relationship, being the voice in somenoe's head while they are her substitute body, feels too intimate if a man is involved? Or, she lives vicariously through the heroines who most closely resemble what she used to be? That would explain why Dinah is her most successful operative, Helena a little less so, and others like Power Girl are too different and can't work.

Just my two cents.

[Indigo Al]

Maybe unconsciously, she feels the same way Winged Victory from Astro City does?

[NickG]

Having a male on the team just seems off, I am not sure why. Ted was good when he showed up but, eh again having a male teammate, it just seems off.

[NickThompson]

I'd have no problem with it. Would three women and one man really change the balance that much?

[Charles RB]

Babs would hire full-time male heroes who possess whatever abilities she's looking for in Birds because thinking "that hero would work well on this team but they're not the Right Sort so I better ignore them" is bloody stupid and a load of pointless faffing about, considering she's running a team that's supposed to save lives.

But she can't because that would change the comic's dynamic and selling point, and not even Babs is going to do dare do that and incure the wrath of DC editorial. ;)

I don't think it'd be a good idea to actually call attention to it in the comic by having Babs come out with some sort of reason for why it's all female, any more than it'd be a good idea for the leader of an all-male superhero team to say why they don't have any heroines on team (or non-white members). What reason can you give that won't sound either sexist, arseholish or really effing stupid?

(On the effing stupid front was when I heard that the reason the Angels, the elite fighter jet squad, in Captain Scarlet are all female is because... men would be heavier and slow the plane down. I really doubt the weight factor between male & female military pilots is going to be that great unless the male pilot is Fat Bastard. I was quite happy not wondering why the Angels are all female, because it didn't really seem that important.)

[Lester C.]

Here is my theory. This book has a reputation for an all female cast and cheese cake shots that pander to horny men. I for one don't want to see Savant and Creote's shredded undergarments.

If it sounds like I'm ripping the book I'm not. There is a lot of depth and substance here, but let's be honest in terms of story we really didn't need all the up-close shots of the female protagonist's um more delectable features. Again this book is more substance than style and I love it but you have to do what you have to do to have an all female cast book reach 100 issues and BOP has done that in glorious fashion.

[shrike]

Do you feel Oracle would have guys on the team as full-timers, or not?

Gail

If you add Blue Jay to the team I will continue this book.

[MartinRedmond]

Boys in Heels? No, just no.

[Beacon]

Sure. Savant, Creote, Ted Kord, Jason Bard, Nightwing, and Robin were pretty much part of the team for a while and a guy like the Question or a properly written Elongated Man might make for a good fit too. I think the thing is that, all other things being equal, she’s going to pick the female operative over the over the male one so the men should always be in the minority even if the team happens to have one or two at the time..

[Lester C.]

I just thought of something. Jim Gordon's divorce and the death of Bab's parents occurred around the same time. As a result of all that Babs was raised single handly by Jim Gordon. A man who is a total workalic that spent far more time with Batman than Babs as she more or less raised herself. As a result she has issues with Batman who is a male superhero who more or less stole her father and Jim who more or less abondoned her for Gotham. As a result of all this she hates male superheroes and men in general.

[TCJohnson]

a properly written Elongated Man might make for a good fit too.

Except for the fact that Gail really doesn't like the character much. ;)

[Beacon]

Except for the fact that Gail really doesn't like the character much. ;)

I didn’t know that. Funny, considering I’ve seen people suggest she write Martian Manhunter and I KNOW she’s said she doesn’t get that character.

[PatrickG]

Hey... Gail.

Introduce an all-male boy's club BoP counterpart and see how Babs reacts.

IMO when you have a character who seems to do things without your knowledge, best thing to do is to bait the trap and see what you catch.

Off the top of my head, I think she has trouble interacting with men.

Her father was an absentee dad. The male mentor she sought out as Batgirl was distant and rejected her a lot early on.

The one male she seems most romantically connected to is younger and a wisecracker. I mean, Dick when done well is non-threatening and someone who can diffuse tension.

Barbara was a shy librarian once. She's a policy maker and an idea person. Now she works behind computers.

I'm not sure that she deals well in a social atmosphere. Not to say she can't be authoritative or strong; we KNOW she can be. But she needs an idea to back her up.

Even without the chair, she can't fully walk on her own; she needs the support of something else. The chair almost works as a metaphor for something she's grappling with. That issue is the same issue that caused her to become BATgirl instead of inventing a new crimefighting identity and the same reason she uses all-female field agents now.

I think once that idea or concept (whatever it is) is dealt with, she'll walk again... and yet she can't be Batgirl or Oracle once that's resolved either. In the end, paralysis or death or things like that are never real for fictional characters; they're metaphors whether that's the authors' intent or not.

I think that if you crack this nut, it will lead Barbara Gordon into the next phase of her life and may just be the end for the BoP.

[Gail Simone]

Except for the fact that Gail really doesn't like the character much. ;)

Stinky Plas rip-off!

Gail

[Beacon]

Stinky Plas rip-off!

Gail

Elongated Man is completely different than Plastic Man. Ralph is actually funny.

And yes, I’m aware of the potential heresy involved in telling Gail Simone what is funny and what isn’t.;)

[Gilda Dent]

Only if they're cross-dressers or transgendered (kidding, but that's actually something I *would* kinda like to see handled with both taste and humor* somewhere....)

Lord Fanny in The Invisibles. Grant Morrison plays with gender ambiguity issues better than any other writer in comics. He thinks he's written a transsexual, but she's really more of a hardcore crossdresser, but still the best, deepest portrayal of a transgendered hero in comics.

Gilda

[Indigo Al]

Hey... Gail.

Introduce an all-male boy's club BoP counterpart and see how Babs reacts.



We have seen this concept once...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0539264/

[ChthonicSpirit]

That answer SEEMS correct, but at the same time, it FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical.

That was the feeling that I got, on this issue. And no, it isn't logical . . . its sad, really. I don't need any more reasons to dislike Babs, but they just keep popping up.

[Budgie Inspector]

She'll ask the most qualified people if they want to join the team, but after she makes a list of the most qualified people - both men and women - she'd ask the women first. Especially if she sees qualified women that aren't getting what she considers to be equal opportunities.

...Or any opportunities. I think the all-female-team aspect of BoP is the perfect way to flesh out the DCU's underused female characters, especially the street-level fighters.

[Alix Harrower]

a properly written Elongated Man

Careful what you wish for; the nimrods running DC think that Elongated Man as written these past few grim'n'gloomy years think they ARE writing Elongated Man properly.

[Cam63]

I prefer BoP to be an exclusive sheila team with occasional blokes guesting.

I love Corrina's shrink session post with Babs, btw. :)

[Charles RB]

...Or any opportunities.

Eh? In the DCU itself, the fictional universe and not the company, what's stopping female superheroes from having the same opportunities as the male ones? It's not like they know they haven't got a solo title or, in universe, that would stop them having battles against supervillains and the like.

[Gail Simone]

That was the feeling that I got, on this issue. And no, it isn't logical . . . its sad, really. I don't need any more reasons to dislike Babs, but they just keep popping up.

Lots of other books to read, Cht.

Gail

[ChthonicSpirit]

Lots of other books to read, Cht.

Gail

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, here, but it's the simple truth - the more messed up and strange Babs seems, the less I can like her.

[thespianphryne]

...FEELS wrong. I have this feeling that Babs is resisting adding guys to the team, but only vague theories to back it up. It certainly isn't logical...
Gail

Well, Oracle's thoughts on the matter might be in the order of:
Yes. No. Which guy? No. Yes. Maybe that guy. Yes. No. O.K., fine! Or maybe not. Or...erm... Who is it again?

It needn't be a rational explanation, but more an intuited sense. Like a kinaesthetic person might know how to disassemble a complex engine block by hand but not be able to explain it to someone else even with a visual cue present. Or it could be like picking a horse: you can have a printed, rational sheet that lists provenance, pedigree, and training but until you meet the beast...:shrug:

[Karen El]

I could see her trying a guy on the team because she couldn't see a reason why not, even though it felt wrong, and then having it completely screw the dynamic so she comes to properly understand why it doesn't work.

It would just be a waste of a plot to have her work it out without any trauma.

[Charles RB]

then having it completely screw the dynamic

The dynamic of the book, yeah - but how would it screw the dynamic of the team itself? (I'm assuming the male in question isn't a jerk here)

[Gozwald73]

Let's keep BoP girl-focussed. There's plenty of "boy-band" groups out there for those that want it.

The odd visit from a peepee is fine, but the book should remain a clamhaven.

[kingdom2000]

Would Oracle prevent men from being on the team? No, whatever tool gets the job done (learned from batman but minus the ass quotient).

Would comic creators keep men off the team out of "tradition"? Possibly.

Should you just add men just because though? No, need a particular reason to otherwise why bother.

Last I checked real birds of prey don't follow gender rolls

[Tad Sivana]

It's pretty established in the Chuck Dixon run that Babs has used male agents as required, (even suggested that she may have used Slade at one time).
But her relationship with Dinah and Helena is different from those with other characters she's encountered, including Lois Lane and Power Girl...let's face it, sometimes a team just clicks, and that's what the recent BOP team has had going for it. I don't think Babs would shy away from working with a guy, if he was the right guy....but she hasn't found that yet (I think she would have gotten there with Ted) and who's to say she ever will?
Finding and rehabilitating Savant and Creote doesn't mean they'll ever connect to her like Dinah did.
This will be the adventure of the new lineup!
I also think that Barbara is playing on the psychology (false) of her opponents that women supers are less of a threat than their male counterparts. She uses that to her advantage.
As a heroine addict, I love the spotlight in BOP being on the women of the DCU....but please don't lose the contrast that interacting with the guys gives the series. I think the Ted Kord, Tim Drake, Dick Grayson cameos have given us some of the best scenes in the series.

[Night Swordsman]

Sigh. This one hurts.
My awnser right now? Go ahead. Frankly BOP is Oracle,Black Canary,and Huntress. Babs may be the soul of the team,but Dinah was it's heart and Helena was its eyes. To replace Dinah with Manhunter is like taking..oh,Spider-man out of his comic,tell him he was never the REAL spider-man,put in a clone and have him take over the comic.

So adding guys? No big deal. The damage for me has already been done,and for what? A very poor JLA restart. Sigh.

These are my personal feelings. I am sticking with BOP because i BELIEVE in Gail,but i am not looking forward to it thou. I just detest Manhunter and have no desire to see her in BOP.

[CanaryNoir]

That was the feeling that I got, on this issue. And no, it isn't logical . . . its sad, really. I don't need any more reasons to dislike Babs, but they just keep popping up.

Yep, that's Oracle. Keepin' the mensfolk down. When will men be recognized as valuable members of a superteam and not just eye candy? WHEN?!

[Justin Carr]

The cross-dressing thing almost happened. My very first bop pitch had a guy dressing as Black Canary, trying to take up her mantle.

Gail

Well, if they could change one of the women in Apartment 3-G to a cross-dressing man, then I don't see why you couldn't. *G*

[curefreak]

I really wonder if any man in the dcu is in touch with himself to take orders from a female who used to be semi lame sidekick and now is crippled and sort of a geek,
i cant think of anyone off hand.
it seems like they dont mind her as long as shes giving information out, but to take orders from her might seem funny, but i could be wrong i dont know for sure, i just dont want to see it happening cause of the female bonding we get wich is kind of refreshing change of pace compared to everything else.

[TCJohnson]

And yes, I’m aware of the potential heresy involved in telling Gail Simone what is funny and what isn’t.;)

Oh no it's not. She thinks SCTv is hysterical...something not right about that girl!

[TCJohnson]

And I was proud of my little bit of reasoning behind there only being female BoPers.

[Lester C.]

I like an all female lead mainstream comic reaching the big 100 issue milestone. This should be a much bigger deal than it is.

[shrike]

I like an all female lead mainstream comic reaching the big 100 issue milestone. This should be a much bigger deal than it is.

True, how many femalecentric comics REACH 100, let alone 50?

[The Xenos]

Sure. Savant, Creote, Ted Kord, Jason Bard, Nightwing, and Robin were pretty much part of the team for a while and a guy like the Question or a properly written Elongated Man might make for a good fit too.

Ah. I forgot about Jaosn Bard too. That was a pretty neat arc. Hadn't heard of the character before.


No Dick in Bops.

Nightwing has his own mag already.

BoPs doesn't have to be so all-inclusive. Would Charlie's Angels take on a male angel?

What are you talking about? He's already been in two of them. Zing. I tell ya. What an audience!

Anyway, I want me some Nightwing and Birds crossovers. Now, not actually crossovers, but I'd like to see them meeting in their respective books. Well, Marc Andreyko is writing Babs into the Annual.

As for other DCU guys, I really liked when Ted Kord appeared in the book. Wouldn't it be awsome if he sho.. wait.. no.. nevermind. Grumble.. grumble.. Countdown.. gumble.

I'd love to see Huntress and Question together again. Of course the thing is they can't be like the JLU ep, at least not right off the bat. I gotta reread Cry for Blood, but I'd like to see the two of them together. Then again, I just want to see more Question anyway. Plus I can't think of anyone I'd rather see Helena with.

[Lunar Daydreamer]

I think you should have bloakes in it. As main cast members.

I can't see why Oracle or any of the others for that matter would exclude anyone who wasn't the best person for the job/team.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

I really wonder if any man in the dcu is in touch with himself to take orders from a female who used to be semi lame sidekick and now is crippled and sort of a geek,
i cant think of anyone off hand.
it seems like they dont mind her as long as shes giving information out, but to take orders from her might seem funny....

I would hope there would be very few male DC characters who would have a problem with this.

But then I was thinking about this issue and realized I'm hard-pressed to think of too many DC teams that have had female leaders over the years. (Yes, I realize you mentioned a number of issues some people might have taking orders from Oracle, only one of which was her gender.) The only two "present-day" (i.e., not Legion) examples I can think of are Jade, who was leader of the Outsiders for about 12 seconds before she got killed, and Donna Troy (who I think was leader of the Teen Titans briefly while Dick Grayson was between identities, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong).

I expect there are others, especially during the '90s when I was away from comics for an entire decade, but it does seem that Marvel has had lots more female team leaders: Wasp was leader of the Avengers for ages, and Captain Marvel/Photon, Black Widow (right?), and Scarlet Witch also come to mind; Heather Hudson in Alpha Flight; and then in the various X-teams we've had Storm (who I'd argue is the 2nd most prominent X-Men leader ever, after Cyclops), Mystique, Karma, Dani Moonstar, Rogue, Blink, etc.

What do y'all think? Has Marvel had more female team leaders than DC, or am I just forgetting a bunch of DC cases?

[NickThompson]

True, how many femalecentric comics REACH 100, let alone 50?
These days, how many comics reach 100 period :)

[Jeff F]

I just skimmed the thread and have yet to see this point raised.

Would the dude in question hang out with Babs and Helena? If so, bring him on.

BoP is about a lot of things: action, adventure, humor... but the most important thing, to me at least, is it's humanity. The best parts of the book, the part of the book that make me really feel for the characters, when they're just hanging out. They fight, they rag on each other, they listen to each other.

If you can bring in a guy who will hang out with the ladies on his off time, who is as close to Helena and Babs as they were to Dinah, and whom you want to write, then by all means go for it.

That being said, the book is Birds of Prey:)

[suedenim]

I would hope there would be very few male DC characters who would have a problem with this.

But then I was thinking about this issue and realized I'm hard-pressed to think of too many DC teams that have had female leaders over the years.

Wonder Woman was the leader of one of the Justice League's incarnations - I want to say it was somewhere between Superman's death and return, but that may or may not be accurate.

[Lester C.]

I think you should have bloakes in it. As main cast members.

I can't see why Oracle or any of the others for that matter would exclude anyone who wasn't the best person for the job/team.
All of the males generally get their asses handed to them, or in Yogo's case executed, so I'd stay away from this book if I was a bloke.

[Charles RB]

I really wonder if any man in the dcu is in touch with himself to take orders from a female who used to be semi lame sidekick and now is crippled and sort of a geek

Seemingly half the DCU turns to Oracle for tactical support and data gathering, enough so that she was a member of the Justice League under Morrison (and the Suicide Squad before that IIRC). I don't think they're going to have any issues about taking orders from her in the field after all that.

[vanityman]

while having a guy may work organically with the writer's vision, i think ultimately it goes against the core brand of the series...

or maybe i've been focusing on archetypes too much lately...

[blackcanary_416]

I think Babs should have a seperate Birds sector with the guys.

I do think that the core should stay female.

A guy trying to take up the Canary mantle? hmmm...I would have liked to see that, maybe a future issue?

[AndrewCrossett]

If you brought in guys you'd have to rename it "Blokes of Prey."

I'd also like to see the core of the group remain female, though there's no reason for a strict "no boyz allowed" rule.

[curefreak]

I would hope there would be very few male DC characters who would have a problem with this.

But then I was thinking about this issue and realized I'm hard-pressed to think of too many DC teams that have had female leaders over the years. (Yes, I realize you mentioned a number of issues some people might have taking orders from Oracle, only one of which was her gender.) The only two "present-day" (i.e., not Legion) examples I can think of are Jade, who was leader of the Outsiders for about 12 seconds before she got killed, and Donna Troy (who I think was leader of the Teen Titans briefly while Dick Grayson was between identities, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong).

I expect there are others, especially during the '90s when I was away from comics for an entire decade, but it does seem that Marvel has had lots more female team leaders: Wasp was leader of the Avengers for ages, and Captain Marvel/Photon, Black Widow (right?), and Scarlet Witch also come to mind; Heather Hudson in Alpha Flight; and then in the various X-teams we've had Storm (who I'd argue is the 2nd most prominent X-Men leader ever, after Cyclops), Mystique, Karma, Dani Moonstar, Rogue, Blink, etc.

What do y'all think? Has Marvel had more female team leaders than DC, or am I just forgetting a bunch of DC cases?
Yeah Donny Troy has been leader a few times that i've read during the wolfman\perez years, but no Karma has never lead the New Mutants, tho i know shes teaching now at the school, but she was barely in New Mutants if that's what you're talking about..

[curefreak]

Seemingly half the DCU turns to Oracle for tactical support and data gathering, enough so that she was a member of the Justice League under Morrison (and the Suicide Squad before that IIRC). I don't think they're going to have any issues about taking orders from her in the field after all that.
Yes i know i think i pointed that out, but there's a big difference between using someone for information and taking direct orders from them.
considering that some people find her manipulative (at least on here) and that the guy in question is gonna find out sooner or later that they're working for a female who's a crippled ex-sidekick turned hacker, im just not sure i see too many guy's being down with that.

[SteelChrysanthemum]

Except for the fact that Gail really doesn't like the character much. ;)
Good. I'd have a very hard time reading BoP if the Elongated Man was added. There are some characters I really can't stand.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

... but no Karma has never lead the New Mutants, tho i know shes teaching now at the school, but she was barely in New Mutants if that's what you're talking about..

Karma was the first leader of the New Mutants in their original 1980s incarnation. When Xavier assembled the team, he made her the leader because she was the oldest and the only one with any combat experience. Then when she apparently died fighting Viper in NM #6, Sam Guthrie and Dani Moonstar took over as co-leaders.

[TomStillwell]

considering that some people find her manipulative (at least on here) and that the guy in question is gonna find out sooner or later that they're working for a female who's a crippled ex-sidekick turned hacker, im just not sure i see too many guy's being down with that.

Yes, because most guys are narrow-minded cretins.:rolleyes:

[curefreak]

Yes, because most guys are narrow-minded cretins.:rolleyes:
Well in real life, yes but that's another story, but a lot of the main DC male hero's have big ego's in my opinion, so if they were gonna pick someone it would have to be someone like Blue Beetle who has been sort of portrayed as a loser in comparison to the rest of the Justice League'ers(this is not my opinion of him mind you just the way he's been portrayed) and doesnt have a lot of ego to check out the door.

[curefreak]

Karma was the first leader of the New Mutants in their original 1980s incarnation. When Xavier assembled the team, he made her the leader because she was the oldest and the only one with any combat experience. Then when she apparently died fighting Viper in NM #6, Sam Guthrie and Dani Moonstar took over as co-leaders.
I dont recall that at all, but that doesnt mean it didnt happen.

[TomStillwell]

Well in real life, yes but that's another story, but a lot of the main DC male hero's have big ego's in my opinion, so if they were gonna pick someone it would have to be someone like Blue Beetle who has been sort of portrayed as a loser in comparison to the rest of the Justice League'ers(this is not my opinion of him mind you just the way he's been portrayed) and doesnt have a lot of ego to check out the door.

I can't think of any hero in the DCU that would have a problem with the reality of the person behind Oracle. Oracle has helped save the world countless times over by organizing, coordinating, and providing communication & information to herokind.

Hell, even a bastard like Guy Gardner would give Babs the respect she deserved...and then he'd hit on her.

[curefreak]

I can't think of any hero in the DCU that would have a problem with the reality of the person behind Oracle. Oracle has helped save the world countless times over by organizing, coordinating, and providing communication & information to herokind.

Hell, even a bastard like Guy Gardner would give Babs the respect she deserved...and then he'd hit on her.
I personally cant see anyone from the major end of the League taking orders from her, i mean why did she choose someone like Black Canary who was feeling low, when she could have used people she has personal connections with in the Bat-family to help her?

[TomStillwell]

I personally cant see anyone from the major end of the League taking orders from her, i mean why did she choose someone like Black Canary who was feeling low, when she could have used people she has personal connections with in the Bat-family to help her?

See, I think you're really missing the point but also projecting some pretty poor values at the same time.

One, the use of the term "cripple" really speaks a lot about how you view the handicapped. It's kind of appalling to think a hero would meet Babs face-to-face and demiss all she's done because of a wheelchair. It's sad that you believe this sort of thing.

Two, I'm pretty sure most of the League knows who Oracle really is. They already take orders from her.

Three, you're being dismissive of her role as Batgirl. Formerly being Batgirl is not something she'd be ashamed of and no hero in the DCU would have a notion to make her feel shame.

I can imagine a hero being surprised to find out who Oracle is. I can't imagine of them thinking lesser of Oracle after such a revelation. Just the opposite. I think they'd have more respect for Oracle and the work she does.

[curefreak]

See, I think you're really missing the point but also projecting some pretty poor values at the same time.

One, the use of the term "cripple" really speaks a lot about how you view the handicapped. It's kind of appalling to think a hero would meet Babs face-to-face and demiss all she's done because of a wheelchair. It's sad that you believe this sort of thing.

Two, I'm pretty sure most of the League knows who Oracle really is. They already take orders from her.

Three, you're being dismissive of her role as Batgirl. Formerly being Batgirl is not something she'd be ashamed of and no hero in the DCU would have a notion to make her feel shame.

I can imagine a hero being surprised to find out who Oracle is. I can't imagine of them thinking lesser of Oracle after such a revelation. Just the opposite. I think they'd have more respect for Oracle and the work she does.
Well were just gonna have to disagree, but you didnt answer my question about why Babs didnt use her connections to the Bat-family (specially Nightwing)to run her errands and join her team?

[TomStillwell]

but you didnt answer my question about why Babs didnt use her connections to the Bat-family (specially Nightwing)to run her errands and join her team?

I thought answer was pretty clear without me having to explain it to you.

Writer's fiat.

[curefreak]

I thought answer was pretty clear without me having to explain it to you.

Writer's fiat.
I dont even know what a fiat is:confused:

[TomStillwell]

It's when a writer takes the story in the direction of his choosing in order to further a certain goal.

For example, we've seen Batman fight Superman many times and even beat him. People explain this away that Batman is smarter then Superman and is always prepared for these fights. Or he's had Kryptonite handy.

If you really think about it, Superman is unbeatable by a normal human, even with Kryptonite around. Superman could just blitzkrieg Batman from the stratosphere before Batman knew he was coming.

But that doesn't happen. Why? Because that wouldn't be a very good fight. It's not a good story.

Barbara doesn't reach out to the Bat-family because Chuck Dixon and later on Gail didn't want to tell another Bat-story. As much sense as it seems to us that Babs would call in Nightwing before Dinah, it's the writers who decide what is best for the story. For their story.

That is writer's fiat.

[curefreak]

It's when a writer takes the story in the direction of his choosing in order to further a certain goal.

For example, we've seen Batman fight Superman many times and even beat him. People explain this away that Batman is smarter then Superman and is always prepared for these fights. Or he's had Kryptonite handy.

If you really think about it, Superman is unbeatable by a normal human, even with Kryptonite around. Superman could just blitzkrieg Batman from the stratosphere before Batman knew he was coming.

But that doesn't happen. Why? Because that wouldn't be a very good fight. It's not a good story.

Barbara doesn't reach out to the Bat-family because Chuck Dixon and later on Gail didn't want to tell another Bat-story. As much sense as it seems to us that Babs would call in Nightwing before Dinah, it's the writers who decide what is best for the story. For their story.

That is writer's fiat.Well in that sense i can't see any males becoming part of the girls club that is BoP.

[TCJohnson]

See, I think you're really missing the point but also projecting some pretty poor values at the same time.

One, the use of the term "cripple" really speaks a lot about how you view the handicapped. It's kind of appalling to think a hero would meet Babs face-to-face and demiss all she's done because of a wheelchair. It's sad that you believe this sort of thing.

Ya know though, I could see most of the Justice League having problems taking orders from Oracle. Batman wouldn't because he still remembers the Batgirl he trained. Superman I could see as being too over protective of Barbara to take orders from her. Aquaman is an arrogant SOB and doesn't take orders from anybody. The only ones out of the big 7 I really think would be able to take orders from Babs is Wonder Woman, Martial Manhunter and Hal Jordan under the right circumstances.

ANd Guy Gardner? No way. TO begin with, he has said many times he doesn't take orders from women. He doesn't give anybody respect unless they earn it, and with Babs she would have to work really hard to get it.


Two, I'm pretty sure most of the League knows who Oracle really is. They already take orders from her.

They pretty much know who she is but she takes orders from them. "Oracle, I need information on so and so."

[thespianphryne]

Hell, even a bastard like Guy Gardner would give Babs the respect she deserved...and then he'd hit on her.

Ah HA HA! He's my kind of Guy. Absolutely. Information is power you know. And whoever has the information has the power. But the question isn't would the superdude come to work for Oracle - because I think many would - but would someone like Oracle have a superdude come work for her on a permanent basis.

I think Ms. Simone's asking a story question, not a plot question, and those are much, much harder to justify when all one has is a feeling.

--Phryne

[Jmacq1]

I dunno about a full team member, but I heartily second the motion for the Question as a regular supporting character!

I felt so robbed that there was never much/any interaction between Vic and Helena after "Cry For Blood". I know they're significantly different in JLU, but there's potential there, doggone it!

[TomStillwell]

Ya know though, I could see most of the Justice League having problems taking orders from Oracle. Batman wouldn't because he still remembers the Batgirl he trained. Superman I could see as being too over protective of Barbara to take orders from her. Aquaman is an arrogant SOB and doesn't take orders from anybody. The only ones out of the big 7 I really think would be able to take orders from Babs is Wonder Woman, Martial Manhunter and Hal Jordan under the right circumstances.

ANd Guy Gardner? No way. TO begin with, he has said many times he doesn't take orders from women. He doesn't give anybody respect unless

Yet, in Gail's Villains United special Babs pretty much commands every earthbound hero against The Society's outbreaks.

"Hold the line, Green Arrow. That's an order!"

[Charles RB]

there's a big difference between using someone for information and taking direct orders from them.

Yes, you expect whoever's giving you orders to have tactical expertise - which Oracle has and is well-known for, even before she co-ordinated metahumans worldwide in the Villains United Special.


the guy in question is gonna find out sooner or later that they're working for a female who's a crippled ex-sidekick turned hacker, im just not sure i see too many guy's being down with that.

The sidekick thing isn't going to be that much of a problem since there's a whole bunch of sidekicks turned independent superhero in the DCU (does anyone disrespect Nightwing for being a former Robin), and they already know she's a hacker. AFAIK, they also know she's female. Can't see many superheroes having an issue with her being crippled when her being crippled doesn't have any basis on her tactical abilities.

And why would male heroes by more bothered about working for a "crippled ex-sidekick turned hacker" than female heroes?


I personally cant see anyone from the major end of the League taking orders from her

Not only was she a valued member of the JLA and they listened to her, she did give orders to major Leaguers during Infinite Crisis.

[curefreak]

Yes, you expect whoever's giving you orders to have tactical expertise - which Oracle has and is well-known for, even before she co-ordinated metahumans worldwide in the Villains United Special.



The sidekick thing isn't going to be that much of a problem since there's a whole bunch of sidekicks turned independent superhero in the DCU (does anyone disrespect Nightwing for being a former Robin), and they already know she's a hacker. AFAIK, they also know she's female. Can't see many superheroes having an issue with her being crippled when her being crippled doesn't have any basis on her tactical abilities.

And why would male heroes by more bothered about working for a "crippled ex-sidekick turned hacker" than female heroes?



Not only was she a valued member of the JLA and they listened to her, she did give orders to major Leaguers during Infinite Crisis.
The only people who have issues with Robin are in the real world, in the dc universe he's pretty much the king of the sidekicks, since he's lead two teams and they took orders from her one time during a major disaster most of Oracles job's are pretty low on the totem pole of seriousness,
i dont think too many people know that she constantly hacks into government computers.
from what i understand most people in the Justice League that i've seen dont know who Oracle really is the exceptions being the Bop's and the Bat-family.

[Constantine Drakon]

"Okay Black Lightning, Arsenal, Atom Smasher... I've pulled up the plans to the building the Kobra terrorists have taken over, and I think I've found a way you can navigate around their patrols. You're going to have to keep very quiet, and if you're attacked I'm afraid Vigilante won't be able to use his guns - there's very volatile gasses stored in that area. Luckily I've got some schematics on the new powered armor suits Kobra agents have been using, and there's a flaw you can exploit. You're going to need to-"

"Listen, Oracle, this isn't working out. I heard you're in a wheelchair, and a girl, and used to be Batgirl, and are just, like, a hacker these days. Who the hell do you think you are giving us orders? We can walk!"

[Charles RB]

The only people who have issues with Robin are in the real world, in the dc universe he's pretty much the king of the sidekicks

But still a sidekick. According to your logic in regards to Babs, they'd take him less seriously because he's an ex-sidekick - and they don't.


they took orders from her one time during a major disaster

So during a major disaster, when the stakes were really high and they all knew they needed a good leader... they took orders from Oracle. If they trust her command during a massive disaster, why wouldn't they trust it in less serious situations, especially after they've seen how well she did in more serious situations? Are they thick or something?


i dont think too many people know that she constantly hacks into government computers.

Where do they think she gets the data from?

[dazzler_slave]

The only people who have issues with Robin are in the real world, in the dc universe he's pretty much the king of the sidekicks, since he's lead two teams and they took orders from her one time during a major disaster most of Oracles job's are pretty low on the totem pole of seriousness,
i dont think too many people know that she constantly hacks into government computers.
from what i understand most people in the Justice League that i've seen dont know who Oracle really is the exceptions being the Bop's and the Bat-family.
So if you think Robin gets respect and he's a sidekick, then why wouldn't Oracle for being an ex-sidekick? That makes no sense.

Many of Oracle's jobs are very much on the top of the totem pole (to use your term). For example, I think the work she did during World War III, DC One Million and Villains United IC Special were very much high priority and affected the entire world. She's not just some back alley hacker.

Many heroes DO know who she is, but you are right, most don't. However, she gets serious respect from the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman so I doubt anyone else will feel she's worthless.

You also mentioned that you couldn't see Justice Leaguers taking orders from her...what about the time she WAS a member of the JLA and was feeding the other JLers information and orders All...The...Time?

[dazzler_slave]

"Okay Black Lightning, Arsenal, Atom Smasher... I've pulled up the plans to the building the Kobra terrorists have taken over, and I think I've found a way you can navigate around their patrols. You're going to have to keep very quiet, and if you're attacked I'm afraid Vigilante won't be able to use his guns - there's very volatile gasses stored in that area. Luckily I've got some schematics on the new powered armor suits Kobra agents have been using, and there's a flaw you can exploit. You're going to need to-"

"Listen, Oracle, this isn't working out. I heard you're in a wheelchair, and a girl, and used to be Batgirl, and are just, like, a hacker these days. Who the hell do you think you are giving us orders? We can walk!"
I seriously LOVE this post! Best post of the day! :D

[titanfan]

Ya know though, I could see most of the Justice League having problems taking orders from Oracle.

Most of them don't know she's a woman.

[curefreak]

Most of them don't know she's a woman.
Not too many men go back Oracle as a nickname or a real name.

[TomStillwell]

Oracles job's are pretty low on the totem pole of seriousness

Do you actually read comics or just look at the pretty pictures?

[curefreak]

Do you actually read comics or just look at the pretty pictures?
I'm sorry taking after ex cons with personal vendatta's isn't the same as saving the universe from Darkseid.

[TomStillwell]

You just proved my point.

WWIII, DC One Million, Infinite Crisis, Villains United IC Special. She helped save the DCU in all of these stories.

See, the words in the books, the ones in the little bubbles...those are called the story. You read the words and they tell a story...

[curefreak]

You just proved my point.

WWIII, DC One Million, Infinite Crisis, Villains United IC Special. She helped save the DCU in all of these stories.

See, the words in the books, the ones in the little bubbles...those are called the story. You read the words and they tell a story...
Boy you do need to grow up, don't you?

[Damo]

Hon, note that a lot of people are disagreeing with you. Maybe I missed some posters agreeing with you, but I think it's fair to say they're outnumbered at this point.

You don't like the idea. That's fine. But you're saying these characters would never listen to her, when there's several canon examples of them doing just that. You're not just on shaky ground with your statements, you're on no ground at all.

No, not every situation suits her as a leader. Not every situation suits Superman for a leader. But there are some situations she's ideal for. Villains United. Worldwide jailbreaks, heroes disorganized and needing to know where to go to maximize their effectiveness. She was there, the General giving all those superhero troops orders - she had the resources, she had the brain, she could do the coordinating and process all the information. I think you don't give these characters half the credit they deserve if you honestly think they're going to say "well Oracle is telling me I can meet up with some other heroes outside the city so we can stop a prison break, and she'll guide me to the best defensible positions in the prison... but she's just a sidekick in a wheelchair, and I'm important, so screw her."

[TomStillwell]

Boy you do need to grow up, don't you?

Didn't you already do this dance with MacQuarrie and come out the loser?

I'm not as nice as Mac.

[Cam63]

Cure freak, you need a different set of values.

[DMike]

I liked the idea I heard before of Oracle using Savant and Creote as "freelance" Birds without giving them any official status. If Dinah were staying I would have loved to see the Ray as a freelance Bird for a mission where they need a powerful meta-type (though that may interfere with my theory that he's gonna turn out to be the Starman who shows up in the new JSA).

[curefreak]

Cure freak, you need a different set of values.
Isn't that a song?

[Cam63]

I have trouble relating to some of your posts.

[curefreak]

I have trouble relating to some of your posts.
I'm sorry you feel that way:confused:

[Lester C.]

Now that I think of it, Oracle isn't as high up on the totem pole as she once was. Back during Morrison's JLA run, and when Chuck Dixon was writing all the bat books, she was every were. She literally was guest staring in every DC. As a fan I hated that because writers always used her character as a short cut to get from point A to B.

I am very much in love with today's approach to Oracle. A quality over quantity approach as penned by Gail and a few others here and there.

[curefreak]

Now that I think of it, Oracle isn't as high up on the totem pole as she once was. Back during Morrison's JLA run, and when Chuck Dixon was writing all the bat books, she was every were. She literally was guest staring in every DC. As a fan I hated that because writers always used her character as a short cut to get from point A to B.

I am very much in love with today's approach to Oracle. A quality over quantity approach as penned by Gail and a few others here and there.Thank you i always knew you were a good soul.:)

[titanfan]

s a fan I hated that because writers always used her character as a short cut to get from point A to B.

I am very much in love with today's approach to Oracle. A quality over quantity approach as penned by Gail and a few others here and there.

Me too. She was guest starring in JLA, making appearances in Nightwing, JSA, everywhere...NO MORE PLOT DEVICE ORACLE!!!

They've noticeably reduced this and I think that everyone is much better for it.

[Metronome35]

You don't like the idea. That's fine. But you're saying these characters would never listen to her, when there's several canon examples of them doing just that. You're not just on shaky ground with your statements, you're on no ground at all.

I don't think Curefreak's saying that he/she doesn't like the idea of Oracle as a leader, but that he/she can't see many of the major male superheroes taking orders from her.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't think Curefreak's saying that he/she doesn't like the idea of Oracle as a leader, but that he/she can't see many of the major male superheroes taking orders from her.

Really? And which heroes would these be?

I'm coming into this discussion a little late, so I'm looking to get up to speed.

[suedenim]

Heck, very few people have any idea who Oracle really is, right? And she operates on the Internet with the avatar and voice of a hot chick? Thus, most heroes probably conclude that she's actually a man who looks like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. (Who, of course, they have no trouble following, because he's a male.)

[Rhydaman]

Do you feel Oracle would have guys on the team as full-timers, or not?

Gail
Yes, if she thought that there were any guys that she'd get on with as well as she did with Dinah and Helena. But they had the close bond that if you do get it in mixed-gender workplaces would start people thinking of sexual tension. And that tension (whether it's well-founded or not) often leads to complications and threatens the close bonds.

So I could see why she'd be very cautious about bringing guys in now: In DC time, the Birds have been running for, what, 3 or 4 years? And have been working pretty well. Babs is bright, why would she change a working formula now for something that might be risky?

She would also wonder which DCU guys would accept an invitation to become one of the girls.

Why do you think the guys would have a particular insight into what Babs would think, anyhow?

[Tad Sivana]

I say revive Booster and Ted and let them operate under Bab's direction as
"Buds of Prey"

[TomStillwell]

Maybe she can find a few rogue Wildebeast agents still roaming around.

Yep, you guessed it...Herds of Prey.

[Tommy]

I really like what you have done with Josh, Creote and Savant. I think the core should allways be female, but with male supporting cast.

[Lester C.]

Really? And which heroes would these be?

I'm coming into this discussion a little late, so I'm looking to get up to speed.
Speed bad for your heath. Can't you look for, oh I don't know, a glass of water.

[Sharpandpointies]

Speed bad for your heath. Can't you look for, oh I don't know, a glass of water.

An even better plan. Lester delivers. :)

[titanfan]

Oops, I wanted to comment on this, but I forgot:


But there are some situations she's ideal for. Villains United. Worldwide jailbreaks, heroes disorganized and needing to know where to go to maximize their effectiveness. She was there, the General giving all those superhero troops orders - she had the resources, she had the brain, she could do the coordinating and process all the information.

I thought Oracle did a *horrible* job in this one. She spread her resources too thin--all the villains escaped and tons of heroes and villains died. She seemed to have no long term plan at all--it was all just a read and react. If Oracle was a politician, she would have been crucified for that fiasco.

That's not to say it was all her fault--it clearly wasn't and was short handed to begin with--but I'm surprised that Babs has not suffered any fallout from what happened.

[TomStillwell]

Have you ever been in a true crisis situation?

[curefreak]

I don't know why anyone would take orders from someone they've never met, but it's a comic book so logic goes out the door.

[Damo]

Not every hero should ordinarily take orders from someone like Oracle. Not all of them should be in positions to need the kind of service she provides. Superman is unlikely to be needing someone to come up with a complex plan involving plans for a building, or the known weaknesses of a villain, or whatever. But more street level characters, even JSA/JLA folks, that's another matter. Wildcat, Atom Smasher, Plastic Man, Hour Man, Steel, Sandman, Black Lightning, etc. etc. etc... Yeah, I can see any one of them being as willing to listen to Oracle as Black Canary was. Which isn't to say there would never be any disagreement, but Oracle does good work.

As for Villains United, she does good work, but she's not psychic, which is what you would need to have figured out what was going on and prevented things like spreading forces out too thin. To paraphrase the Simpsons, she turned a potential Chernobyl into a mere Three Mile Island.

[TomStillwell]

I don't know why anyone would take orders from someone they've never met, but it's a comic book so logic goes out the door.

Many soldiers have never personally met George W. Bush or any of the higher ups in the military food chain. Yet they still take orders from them.

[curefreak]

Many soldiers have never personally met George W. Bush or any of the higher ups in the military food chain. Yet they still take orders from them.
But that's completly different cause they're not taking direct orders from Bush, i personally dont think he knows the difference between a tank and a jeep.

[TomStillwell]

I've never met the people behind the drive thru at McDonalds but they take my order just fine.

[curefreak]

I've never met the people behind the drive thru at McDonalds but they take my order just fine.
I'm not even sure i know what you're talking about anymore, but youre metaphors need some work.

[TomStillwell]

I'm not even sure i know what you're talking about anymore

That makes two of us.


but youre metaphors need some work.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

[Cam63]

I thought the metaphor worked fine.

[Lester C.]

I don't know why anyone would take orders from someone they've never met, but it's a comic book so logic goes out the door.
Information is a commodity. It can be bought or sold which is why information is power. If you are a superhero and someone is willing to supply you information to do your job or save your life you are going to take it even if you hate women. Beside it's not like they know Babs is a woman and yes I realize Babs doesn't sell her information but gives it to a select few. Still that does not diminish the power of the information she possesses.

[curefreak]

Information is a commodity. It can be bought or sold which is why information is power. If you are a superhero and someone is willing to supply you information to do your job or save your life you are going to take it even if you hate women. Beside it's not like they know Babs is a woman and yes I realize Babs doesn't sell her information but gives it to a select few. Still that does not diminish the power of the information she possesses.
I find it hard to believe that they dont think a person named Oracle is'nt a female.

[curefreak]

I've never met the people behind the drive thru at McDonalds but they take my order just fine.
What exactly do you mean by" behind the drive thru" the person whos taking you're order and handing youre food you see them, you may not "know them" but you do see there face.
this is why the metaphor doesnt work for me unless you care to explain what that meant.

[Lester C.]

I find it hard to believe that they dont think a person named Oracle is'nt a female.
There are many organizations with the name Oracle. You only think of Oracle as a person because you know Bab's back story and see her do her job. However if you are a superhero and see a hologram with an artificial voice or someone taps into your communication gear with an artificial voice you are going to think that there is an organization at the other end rather than a person.

[dazzler_slave]

What exactly do you mean by" behind the drive thru" the person whos taking you're order and handing youre food you see them, you may not "know them" but you do see there face.
this is why the metaphor doesnt work for me unless you care to explain what that meant.
He means that initially they don't see him because he orders through a mic. They don't know who he is but to do their job properly, they take his order to complete their task. Just like when people follow Oracle's orders. They may not see who is giving the order, but they need the information to do THEIR job (crime fighting) so they follow the order.

[curefreak]

He means that initially they don't see him because he orders through a mic. They don't know who he is but to do their job properly, they take his order to complete their task. Just like when people follow Oracle's orders. They may not see who is giving the order, but they need the information to do THEIR job (crime fighting) so they follow the order.
I really don't think the comparison is valid you see the person 5 seconds after you make the order, with oracle most people never see her.

[PatrickG]

Oracle does use a female holographic avatar sometimes.

I find it more likely that they would know she was female but not know she used to be Batgirl.

However, the new Supergirl knew BOTH within a few months of her debut so I gather Barbara's secrets (along with the rest of the Bat-family except Bruce) are more open than you might think. I mean, Ray Palmer's ex-wife knew that Tim Drake was Robin.

[hellokittykat]

NO BOYS!!!

They have COOTIES!

[Metronome35]

I don't think the drive-through anology is much good, personally.
The two cases use different definitions of the word "order". Look the word up in a dictionary and you'll see them listed as separate entries under the word's definition.

[Rhydaman]

Oracle does use a female holographic avatar sometimes.

I find it more likely that they would know she was female but not know she used to be Batgirl.

However, the new Supergirl knew BOTH within a few months of her debut so I gather Barbara's secrets (along with the rest of the Bat-family except Bruce) are more open than you might think. I mean, Ray Palmer's ex-wife knew that Tim Drake was Robin.
I think Kara is probably a special case. She had access to Harbinger's orb, as well as guidance from the big 3, and all sorts of other nifty abilities.

[bert]

is there any way in hell (or Superboy Prime's "power punch") that you could get "Boy" from The Invisibles in BoP ?

'cause *that* would kick major ass. . .

(and just what is Crazy Jane upto these days?. . could you imagine the fun Oracle could have w/ an operative who's powers you could never be sure of?)

[Charles RB]

is there any way in hell (or Superboy Prime's "power punch") that you could get "Boy" from The Invisibles in BoP ?

'cause *that* would kick major ass. . .

Oh hell yes!

[The Xenos]

Oracle does use a female holographic avatar sometimes.

I find it more likely that they would know she was female but not know she used to be Batgirl.

However, the new Supergirl knew BOTH within a few months of her debut so I gather Barbara's secrets (along with the rest of the Bat-family except Bruce) are more open than you might think. I mean, Ray Palmer's ex-wife knew that Tim Drake was Robin.

Yeah, but Identity Crisis was a steaming pile of crap passed off as a well written comic. That Ray Palmer's ex knew Tim Drake was Robin was one of many huge gaping plot holes in the story.

Though there's an intersting addition to BoP. The Identity Crisis version of Jean Lorning. She's psychotic and can pull a flame thrower out of thin air for no good reason other than to move along plot.

[Grazzt]

(and just what is Crazy Jane upto these days?. . could you imagine the fun Oracle could have w/ an operative who's powers you could never be sure of?)

She's on Danny the World right now.

Hmmm, Danny might make an interesting member, too. And he's a transvestite, so you might have less backlash about admitting a male member.

[Gozwald73]

I thought the metaphor worked fine.

Yay, a Phor with superpowers!

[TG Black Canary]

Birds of Prey is about female empowerment, about how women can kick butt and how they don't have to fit the stereotype.

And I have the feeling that Barbara probably feels a male member would try to dominate her, which is what she hates the most, or at least hit on the teammates, or open the doors to yet another mostly male superhero team.

I had an idea I've wanted to write for some time, btw:

There's an all-female team, but they let someone who's a brain in a robot body join because the brain was female.

Later said robot reveals he's actually male, and really wanted on the team for some non-pervish reason (like he was going to get scrapped otherwise, or maybe he though one of them was his sister), so they keep him on the team as long as he keeps up the female act.

[Charles RB]

And I have the feeling that Barbara probably feels a male member would try to dominate her

Why would she feel that?

[OzBat!]

I think it was implied early on in chuck's run on BoP that Barbara had multiple agents. Clearly the Birds are her main team. Plus she does all that kibbitzing as the 911 for the JLA and the batsquad. But if Barbara has multiple agents, I'm pretty sure she's compartmentalising her people. The Birds definitely started out as the rehabilitation program for injured superheroines. Savant and Create were brought on board only because the Birds crossed their paths, and then Oracle needed to keep track of them and hopefully rehabilitate them as well. But interestingly, Oracle gave Savant his own project, seperate from what she was doing with Dinah and Helena. Compartmentalising again.

I think it would be interesting to show this facet of Oracle more often. Maybe a case where two separate projects cross over, and the Birds need to work with some male operatives on the same case. What would be their reaction? Especially if it became clear that Oracle is still in the rehabilitation business with these male heroes? At various times Dinah, Helena and Karen (PeeG) have all come to the very uncomfortable conclusion that Barbara was manipulating things to try and help them heal or change and grow. Would seeing this happening to male heroes help them understand what makes the Oracle tick?

I think this would also explain why there are no male members for this particular team we know as the Birds of Prey. They just wouldn't work as part of the healing dynamic that Barbara is molding for our team; they need something tailored for them specifically.

[PatrickG]

Yeah, but Identity Crisis was a steaming pile of crap passed off as a well written comic. That Ray Palmer's ex knew Tim Drake was Robin was one of many huge gaping plot holes in the story.

Though there's an intersting addition to BoP. The Identity Crisis version of Jean Lorning. She's psychotic and can pull a flame thrower out of thin air for no good reason other than to move along plot.

...!

She should be transformed into a cosmic, female Deadpool.

I mean... Psychotic. Able to make weapons appear out of nowhere. (With a technological explanation, no less.)

Was actually AROUND in the Silver Age so the pastiche possibilities are limitless.

I think she should be turned into a wisecracking serial killer with a heart of gold or something equally jarring.

Take everything Deadpool is, make the range MORE jarring and amp it up about ten notches.

You go from horror movie with bloody messages on walls to slapstick pie fights full of 70s pop culture gags in a matter of panels.

[OzBat!]

You go from horror movie with bloody messages on walls to slapstick pie fights full of 70s pop culture gags in a matter of panels.Do it all in the same panel (I'll allow a splash page!) and I'll be first in line!

[Gail Simone]

I really shoulda just replaced the whole team with Josh, and then HE would be marrying Green Arrow.

Gail

[ElvisGuy]

I really shoulda just replaced the whole team with Josh, and then HE would be marrying Green Arrow.

Gail

YES !!!...and a BIG score goes to Gail !! :)

[matterconsumer]

I really shoulda just replaced the whole team with Josh, and then HE would be marrying Green Arrow.

Gail

Well that's what you get for procrastinating. You could have revealed that Josh was The Ostrich all along but NOOO you wouldn't do it.

[heystacy]

I really shoulda just replaced the whole team with Josh, and then HE would be marrying Green Arrow.

Gail

Don't joke like that. Someone will take you seriously. ;)