A change for Tim Drake

[knightsintights]

Ok so how old is Tim Drake? He seemed older to me during knightfall than now. Everytime I see him now he seems to be being drawn younger. Even in Comic time, knightfall was at least 5 years ago.

Is he still in High School? or College?

I have heard Tim will end up taking the mantle of the Bat in the future, but for now, dont you guys think it is about time for Tim to get a new identity, like Dick did in becoming Nightwing.

Thats what they should have done, and let Stephanie Brown be the new Robin instead of killing her off.

[Damo]

You've got it backwards. DC is hardcore against the idea of making Batman look older. It's one of the main reasons they wanted Nightwing dead - he was a constant reminder of how old Batman is. If anything I'd say they're going to use the "New Earth" after IC to say that Tim is younger than we thought.

And any rumors that Tim is going to take on the mantle are made up by fans that want to sound important.

[Kaos]

I swear Tim is like..16...but he's crazy short 5'6 or sumin...I was never 5'6 at 16...shorty

[wes_rk]

wow, everybody is pretty tall, this same idea came up at the dc boards, is it so hard to accept that Tim is shorter than what we might think? If we go by what wikipedia says (not very reliable, but still) is says
here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height#Average_adult_height_around_the_wor ld) that the average height for a non-hispanic white is 5' 10.2". So yeah, Tim will definitely be under the national average... is it really THAT hard to accept?


Besides, DC is slowly, but surely, de-aging him, because, like Damo pointed out, DC is trying to keep Batman from aging.

[David Atkins]

I guess that is one good thing about these 'Year One' and rehashed 'First Time' books. They could, potentially, create room for a character like Batman to grow, evolve, and age while still keeping the character timeless/ageless.

If they were being used like that, my dislike for them would be greatly diminished.

And I actually like the idea of Tim Drake aging and possibly becoming the next Batman. That would be very cool. Maybe then the Flash wouldn't be the only legacy character that works.

[Agentum]

It's very short for a male, but if he is just 16 he can still grow some more.

[The Xenos]

Well, I'm not sure how old Tim is. Tim is as tall as each artist draws him.

As for going to school. Give the kid a break. He lived in Gotham. He kept changing schools, which clearly must have held him back. Plus it was Gotham, so you had plauges and quakes and various catastophes to mess up the school year. Plus he and his dad, who's now dead anyway, had problems settling down. So as for the school thing, who knows? Hell, with me and my friends in college, between us messing up and the school screwing over students, we gave up counting years and names for them.

[Rylon]

Ok so how old is Tim Drake?I've put his recent appearences at about 16 or 17.

He seemed older to me during knightfall than now.Really? I've always put Tim at 15 or 16 during Knightfall. IIRC, he was 14 in A Lonely Place of Dying. His first min taks place about 15 and Knighfall happens early in his career. (Well, for a comic character.) DC really took some baby steps to get Tim to be Robin. He had three solo minis. The first took place in Europe, away from Batman and Gotham alltogether, the second in Gotham with Batman away, and the last in Gotham with Batman available. Knightfall was used to give Robin his own series. Even Dick didn't have his own series back then.

Everytime I see him now he seems to be being drawn younger. Even in Comic time, knightfall was at least 5 years ago.Hmmm. He maybe drawn younger, I can't tell anymore. Tim stoped aging after Knightfall, so refrence points are hard to find.

Clearly he's still in High School.

Most atempts to give Tim a normal life meet with failure. Does anyone remember his 1st girlfriend? The Russian from the 3rd mini? When he got the regular series, Chuck couldn't get rid of her fast enough.

[quote]I have heard Tim will end up taking the mantle of the Bat in the future, but for now, dont you guys think it is about time for Tim to get a new identity, like Dick did in becoming Nightwing.Tim was origionaly created to be Robin. If you read Batman: Year 3 and it's sequal A Lonely Place of Dying, Tim makes it clear that Batman needs Robin and the point of the story is that Tim is designed to be Robin, and Tim wanted to do nothing else. Dick was supposed to be the clear sucsessor.

Way back when, DC did an annual crossver where Waverider went around touching Superheroes and watching their futures to see if they would become the evil dictator. Of the future stories had Tim quit Robin to become a politition. Later, he wore the Robin costume again on one last case with Batman. The message DC wanted to send out was clear: Tim is only going to be Robin. Really, it was almost a sledge hammer.

But recently, in Teen Titans, it's being sugesteded that Tim is going to replace Batman, not Dick. So Tim's role in the DCU has obviously changed.

But, in reality...

And any rumors that Tim is going to take on the mantle are made up by fans that want to sound important.I don't know if they want to sound important, but there is definaly no truth to them. DC will permanently replace Bruce Wayne as Batman.

Thats what they should have done, and let Stephanie Brown be the new Robin instead of killing her off.While I don't have a problem with Spoiler as Robin, I'm going to agree with Damo: DC dosen't want Batman to pile-up Robins because it will cause fans to think Bruce is old.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

So did he hook up with Ariana Dzerchenko at 12 then?

Continuity is stuffed already.

He's old enough to have done the business with Spoiler and her to be reproductively viable.

I don't think they had them having sex at 11.

And if you tell me that stuff is out of continuity I'm leaving.

[Brack360]

Tim was established as 16 prior to One Year Later (he turned 16 during Jon Lewis' run), so he should be 17 now. However, comic book characters, especially teen characters, do not always age in real time. As others have said, it would be difficult for them to age Tim any further without pushing Batman into his forties.

Tim was 13 or 14 during "Knightfall" and the early years of his own title. He was able to get his driver's license at a younger age because his father was handicapped and he had t drive him around.

[Damo]

Bye Ten!

No, seriously, I think DC's second most likely response (other than ignoring all of it together and putting their fingers in their ears when you say "shouldn't he be older?") will be that all those things we read about happened... just faster. Things that we thought took months actually took weeks, things we thought took weeks took days, etc. etc. He'll still have started at about 13, but he won't have had that 16th Birthday party he thought he had before the OYL jump.

But the most likely response will be to keep it all in continuity and just ignore the fact that he really should be older after all those things that have happened to him. Just send out a memo that reads "okay, you're not allowed say the word "Birthday" or anything else that implies large amounts of time have passed".

[Kaos]

he was thirteen when he started, and xenos I'm just saying that height cos I read somewhere he was about 5'5" or sumin....cos impulse was TINY and then superboy was 5'7" :| he's never gonna get to supes height being 5'7" at 16....swear down..my brother is 5'8" and he's thirteen..lol

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Bye Ten!

No, seriously, I think DC's second most likely response (other than ignoring all of it together and putting their fingers in their ears when you say "shouldn't he be older?") will be that all those things we read about happened... just faster. Things that we thought took months actually took weeks, things we thought took weeks took days, etc. etc. .

So Batman fought me during the 60s and mentioned the then current event of the Vietnam war and also fought the KGBeast in 1987 and mentioned Ronald Reagan....cool.

[Damo]

Shhh! As long as you don't talk about it too loudly, it happened!

[Buried Alien]

Frankly, I'm more than prepared to deal with the idea that Batman (and Superman, etc.) is around forty years old. These days, forty is the new thirty. Moreover, it's nice to think that all those adventures and experiences Batman has built up over the years have added up to something: greater wisdom and skill than he had when he started his career at age 25 (or whatever age it was he started). To artificially lock him at a younger age is to also force him to be a static character.

I'm glad that DC reconsidered the decision to kill Nightwing in INFINITE CRISIS. To kill such a popular, historic, and well-developed character just to keep Batman "youthful" would have been very wrongheaded.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[90'sCartoonMan]

Even in Comic time, knightfall was at least 5 years ago.

Keeping NML and OYL in mind, Knightfall was probably 3 years ago, no more than 4.



He's old enough to have done the business with Spoiler and her to be reproductively viable.

I don't think they had them having sex at 11.

I don't think Tim has had sex. With anyone. By the time Spoiler got pregnant, she was positive it wasn't his because they didn't have sex. It didn't seem like he got that far with his previous girlfriend either.

I hope they're in no hurry to make Tim turn 18. I get the feeling if they did that, he'd shoot up in height (Bart went from 16 to 20 and he got pretty tall). I remember when they aged Tim in Sins of Youth, he was about as tall as Dick.

[Joe Acro]

By the time Spoiler got pregnant, she was positive it wasn't his because they didn't have sex.

Just to clear up this matter. Whether or not she believed he is the father or not is irrelevant. The fact is that he isn't, as you suggested.

[Drakonnen]

Nightwing is a great character. I'd hate to see him ever get killed off.

If ever there was going to be a successor to Bruce, it should be Dick who is more like his son, not Tim.

Why can't Tim be like 19 and still be Robin? There isn't anything automatic that says that Robin can only be a young kid.

[Kaos]

thats true..and his costume isnt so kid-ish anymore..away with the pixie boots said tim

[colossus34]

Why can't Tim be like 19 and still be Robin? There isn't anything automatic that says that Robin can only be a young kid.

Because once Tim turns 19 we have to releive all the same issues Dick went through at that age when he wanted to break out on his own and become a different man than Batman's sidekick. DC is not going to let that happen for quite some time I imagine as they need Tim to be the boy wonder for a while.

[Super Buddies Forever]

When you consider that it took Dick Grayson nearly thirty years, real-time, to become an adult, I'd say we have a ways to go with Drake.

Frankly, I'm more than prepared to deal with the idea that Batman (and Superman, etc.) is around forty years old.

I agree. I don't understand the hesisitation about this anymore. Hell, even if DC refuses to acknowledge this as their age, I've been seeing them as being in their early forties for some time now.

[boy wonder]

Because once Tim turns 19 we have to releive all the same issues Dick went through at that age when he wanted to break out on his own and become a different man than Batman's sidekick. ...
Except for the small detail that they're very different characters that would react to certain situations in different ways.

[Choppa]

How could he be 16? I thought that when he got his special license he was 16? I vaguely remember him saying that b/c his father was handicapped that he got it one year early.

[Damo]

How could he be 16?

DC: Because WE say so.

[Joe Acro]

How could he be 16? I thought that when he got his special license he was 16? I vaguely remember him saying that b/c his father was handicapped that he got it one year early.
Wouldn't that have made him fifteen? Enlighten me. I don't live in New York.

[Alan2099]

He's 16 because various pople have reset the timeline sveral times since he got older.

[Kaos]

17, 17 I Say!!

[Damo]

Tim: *Sighs.* I'm gonna be jailbait forever, aren't I?

Fangirls: YES.

[Choppa]

Wouldn't that have made him fifteen? Enlighten me. I don't live in New York.

You get your license at 17, so at that point in time he would be 16, and that was in real time like 10+ years ago, so it's got to be at least a year ago in comic time. (I don't know what the converation rate from comic time to real time is)

[TheTen-EyedMan]

DC: Because WE say so.

Blind allegience is no allegience at all.

[glennsim]

I think what hurts is that different writers have a different take on how long these heroes have been doing this. So you have Brad Meltzer having Elongated Man saying he's been doing this for 20 years, while other writers are using a much shorter period.

I think there should be some basic guidelines:

Things that were originally published in the 50's, 60',s and 70's happened "years ago".

Things that happened in the 80s happened "a few years ago"

Things that happened in the 90s happened "months ago"

Things that happened in the 2000s happened "a few months ago".

Teenage characters should not have birthdays or be in a specific year of high school. They certainly shouldn't graduate from high school.

[glennsim]

Frankly, I'm more than prepared to deal with the idea that Batman (and Superman, etc.) is around forty years old. These days, forty is the new thirty. Moreover, it's nice to think that all those adventures and experiences Batman has built up over the years have added up to something: greater wisdom and skill than he had when he started his career at age 25 (or whatever age it was he started). To artificially lock him at a younger age is to also force him to be a static character.

I'm glad that DC reconsidered the decision to kill Nightwing in INFINITE CRISIS. To kill such a popular, historic, and well-developed character just to keep Batman "youthful" would have been very wrongheaded.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

There's a few tight spots in the timeline, but the existing one is actually not too bad, if you allow for 15 years of super-heroing and a 39-year-old Batman (using 39 rather than 40 sorta like selling something for $19.99 rather than $20.00). I just spent way too much time thinking about this:

In 2006, let's say Bruce is 39, Dick is 25, Jason is 21, and Tim is 17.

Let's also say that a Robin has to be 13 to actually get out there and kick butt (although training could begin at age 12). An 8-year-old Robin is stupid.

So 4 years ago, Tim got started; Jason, though dead, was 17, Dick was 21, and Bruce was 35.

8 years ago, Jason got started. Little Timmy was 9 years old, Dick was 17 (a little young, but not far off from ready to become Nightwing), and Bruce was 31 - old enough to take in an orphan kid.

12 years ago, Dick got started. Baby Timmy has just turned 5, which makes it difficult to believe that he was old enough to remember seeing Dick at the circus beforehand, but we'll say that happened at age 4, and he saw Dick-Robin on TV at age 7 or so. Jason is 9, Bruce is 27, barely old enough to take in an orphan, but doable.

And, of course, 15 years ago, Bruce is starting out as Batman at age 24, long enough to have gotten some sort of college education and do his world tour. Dick is 10 (and has recently joined the family act), Jason is 6, and Baby Timmy is 2.

Really, Tim is the main problem, and that's just relative to Dick's age, not Bruce's.

[Buried Alien]

I think there should be some basic guidelines:

Things that were originally published in the 50's, 60',s and 70's happened "years ago".

I would amend that to stories published during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s being set between 8-15 years ago.

And in the Post-INFINITE CRISIS scheme of things, I would move all Golden Age stories back to Earth-Two, with the Earth-Two heroes joining the mainstream continuity from COIE onwards.


Things that happened in the 80s happened "a few years ago"

I would amend that to 4-8 years ago.


Things that happened in the 90s happened "months ago"

2-3 years ago.


Things that happened in the 2000s happened "a few months ago".

Within the past two years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Choppa]

If stuff like NML and Knightfall happened that recently, then the characters should be reeling from it. Like you don't hear other villians say stuff like "you Bane's that dude who broke the bat! he's badazz!" anymore cuz the story was 10+ years ago. Nor do you hear ppl in Gotham be like, "oh there's Bruce Wayne, he killed that girl and paid some dude to take the fall," even though in real time it only happened like a few years ago.

[Constantine Drakon]

"Wow, look, it's Bane! You know, he broke Batman's back like, a year ago."

"So what? Look at everything that's happened since then. Hell, the sun got snuffed out a few months ago and you're excited about Batman's back?"

"We sure do live in fast paced times."

"That's the truth."

[glennsim]

I would amend that to stories published during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s being set between 8-15 years ago.

And in the Post-INFINITE CRISIS scheme of things, I would move all Golden Age stories back to Earth-Two, with the Earth-Two heroes joining the mainstream continuity from COIE onwards.



I would amend that to 4-8 years ago.



2-3 years ago.



Within the past two years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I was speaking more in terms of how the characters speak.

"But that battle with the Penguin was months ago!"

"It's been years now since I began this crusade..."

Stuff like that. Besides, when they use actual numbers is when things get wonky.

[Choppa]

I asked a scientist friend and he developed this formula to convert real world time to comic book time:

1 Real Year = 1 Comic Year - (3 Zero Hour Yrs + 1 IC Yr)

[boy wonder]

1 Real Year = 1 Comic Year - (3 Zero Hour Yrs + 1 IC Yr)
So all in all, 1 Real Year = -1 Comic Years?

No wonder Tim's getting younger.

[Super Buddies Forever]

"Wow, look, it's Bane! You know, he broke Batman's back like, a year ago."

"So what? Look at everything that's happened since then. Hell, the sun got snuffed out a few months ago and you're excited about Batman's back?"

"We sure do live in fast paced times."

"That's the truth."

This is why comic time should be vague without trying to say the last fifteen years have all happened within three. Otherwise, in that short time, Superman would have died, Batman would have had his back broken, Coast City would have been annihilated, Jordan would have gone insane and destroyed the Corps, time and space would have been erased and restarted, Neron would have initiated his scheme, the sun would have gone out, Gotham would have been hit by a plague, earthquake, and quarantine, Luthor would have been elected president, the Imperiex war would have occured, Sue Dibney would have been murdered, and the Infinite Crisis mess would have gone down.

There's no way the populace of the DCU would still be mentally functionable. By now they'd all be staying inside and sucking their thumbs, gently weeping into ther pillow and awaiting the next yellow fear demon from the anti-matter universe who wants to black out the moon to revive the Third Reich.

[Choppa]

^Yeah but cmon, how much of that stuff do most ppl actually know about? The plague and NML type stuff sure, but Bruce's broken back, Sue's murder, Parallex, etc?

We should get a book that focuses on some ordinary people so that we can get a sense of how their interpret what we see in the other books. Kind of like Marvels.

[Nstar83]

For sanitys sake couldn't one just assume Tim Drake/Robin of the era is a male teenager between 15-17 years of age.Being dewcribed as a year older or younger an inch shorter or taller as the story dictates an needs him to be for those interactions.

For me personally its Tim 17 Dick 25, Batman 34 as my guidline roughly

[Charagon]

I've spent many a sleepless night trying to pin down ages of the Batclan at any specific time.



I think it may have driven me mad.

[Candyland_Assassin]

Am I the only one who thinks its getting to the point where they need to just start all over? I mean, everyone loves TAS, partly because everything makes sense and its in continuity throughout all the DCAU. Thats what makes it so great, and Bruce Timm so genius. DC has gotten so out of hand if they wanted to just wipe the slate clean and start telling all these stories again, I'd commend them and back them 100%.

I've been preaching this since "No Man's Land". Theres just too much to go back and retcon it all.

[hmnut73]

Am I the only one who thinks its getting to the point where they need to just start all over? I mean, everyone loves TAS, partly because everything makes sense and its in continuity throughout all the DCAU. Thats what makes it so great, and Bruce Timm so genius. DC has gotten so out of hand if they wanted to just wipe the slate clean and start telling all these stories again, I'd commend them and back them 100%.

I've been preaching this since "No Man's Land". Theres just too much to go back and retcon it all.

Major retcons are just too dangerous. Because you are always going to have to cancel someones favorite book, or kill off a character people have grown to love.

Off the top of my head Tim Drake. Not that I am a big fan, but I know a lot of people are. If they Retconned Bats back to his early days that's a few years before he hooks up with Dick that's a few years before Dick leaves and Jason comes in that's a few years before Jason "Dies" and Tim comes in. Even if they speed through that stuff ultra fast that's like 5-10 years before Tim even shows up again, people will be complaining every day for all of those year.

Even if they skip Dick and/or Jason, there will be just as many cry babies who say it is a crime to not have Dick and/or Jason there.

Just saying retcons are not the cure all they may seem to be.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Plus, even if you junk everything and start over, your new continuity will eventually run into the exact same problems. It's better to leave your rich history intact and try to reconcile the problems rather than toss it all every twenty years.

[Sizzle]

There's a few tight spots in the timeline, but the existing one is actually not too bad, if you allow for 15 years of super-heroing and a 39-year-old Batman (using 39 rather than 40 sorta like selling something for $19.99 rather than $20.00). I just spent way too much time thinking about this:

In 2006, let's say Bruce is 39, Dick is 25, Jason is 21, and Tim is 17.

Let's also say that a Robin has to be 13 to actually get out there and kick butt (although training could begin at age 12). An 8-year-old Robin is stupid.

So 4 years ago, Tim got started; Jason, though dead, was 17, Dick was 21, and Bruce was 35.

8 years ago, Jason got started. Little Timmy was 9 years old, Dick was 17 (a little young, but not far off from ready to become Nightwing), and Bruce was 31 - old enough to take in an orphan kid.

12 years ago, Dick got started. Baby Timmy has just turned 5, which makes it difficult to believe that he was old enough to remember seeing Dick at the circus beforehand, but we'll say that happened at age 4, and he saw Dick-Robin on TV at age 7 or so. Jason is 9, Bruce is 27, barely old enough to take in an orphan, but doable.

And, of course, 15 years ago, Bruce is starting out as Batman at age 24, long enough to have gotten some sort of college education and do his world tour. Dick is 10 (and has recently joined the family act), Jason is 6, and Baby Timmy is 2.

Really, Tim is the main problem, and that's just relative to Dick's age, not Bruce's.

Pretty close, though I'd put Bruce a few years younger at 35 current time.

[Kaos]

I reckon a good change for Tim's life would be to stop giving him such heart wrenching drama...lol