The Giffen JLA hate continues!!

[Sean Walsh]

Regarding Scott Beatty and Rags Morales' upcoming Dr. Mid-Nite story in JSA CLASSIFIED:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=88346


NRAMA: ...getting back to JSA Classified, any final reasons you want to share with readers on why they should check out this story?

SB: Icemaiden skinned alive...


She's technically more of a post-Giffen JLAer, but from that same series so I make the stretch and yell loudly like a good interweb fanboy should. :p

[marshal99]

She's a wank gerard Jones era JLA replacement for Ice , not Giffen.

[the4thpip]

But I read her first appearance in SuperFriends when I was a wee lad.

I remember wondering how she would hug her children and kiss them good night if she had no body warmth at all (which was a major plot point in the book). Kids, eh?

[Agentum]

AND another non american hero dies.

I'm tired of this.

Must every story have a dead hero in it, is this what sells comics?

They already have killed of most of the non american heroes that has been used in JL.
And then they start a new JLA series again, thinking so small yet, don't they understand that the world is bigger than America.

Ok, i don't feel much for this character but i feel it's a waste, i hate when they later come up with som stupid reason to take the dead heroes back again.

Good storytelling dont need shit like this.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm torn between my love of Dr. Mid-Nite and my complete disinterest in offing third-stringers.

[Buried Alien]

I don't think there's any more "hate" for the Giffen Justice League than there was for the Silver Age Justice League during the 1980s and 1990s when the classic Silver/Bronze Age Leaguers were getting trashed left and right.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Gnarl]

Yet another "Women in refridgerators" entry. When are writers going to stop writing stories they know will make them cringe later on?

[Lorendiac]

Yet another "Women in refridgerators" entry. When are writers going to stop writing stories they know will make them cringe later on?

Even granting the assumption about what they "know" in advance of its actually happening, the answer is probably: "When both the writers and the editors realize that market realities have changed to such a degree that such stories will no longer sell!"

So maybe in another 50 or 100 years? I don't see it happening much sooner!

[Agentum]

Maybe it's not hate, but more like the big wigs of DC doesn't like the era with JLI/E and so on, it shows.

I hope somebody in 10 years kill the new heroes they have created now :D

And it's probably just we readers from this era that care, reading forums like this most people really just read new comics and don't care for old ones even if there are runs out there that is superior to anything DC puts out now.

So big killing and raping events sells, no heroes will ever be retired, they will die instead.

I wonder if they will try to create new lesser heroes instead of the dead ones, i mean they are important.
You can't just wipe them away and only keep important american heroes(well maybe that is what most readers want).
I'm sad that the heroes from other parts of the world is shrinking so much leaving nothing intresting left.

I think it would be good for american readers to aknowledge that there is a big world out there with their own storys and heroes, there is so much more than america that can be used.
Yes i know people on this forum is a lot more open than other comic readers so maybe i'm wrong and it all would colapse if USA don't get to be superior alone.

The new JLA was a step in the wrong direction imho.

But i'm from Europe so i will of course care for this more, i like DCU to be a world, not DCAmerica.
I always have thought that pretending 90% of the heroes are americans was stupid, they wold be as many in other parts of the world, or what are they trying to say? that other people are to stupid/weak/chicken to be heroes, it's not all about metapowers.

I don't write this as a fact, it's just my opinion so don't get angry if you feel it's wrong:-D

[titanfan]

I don't think there's any more "hate" for the Giffen Justice League than there was for the Silver Age Justice League during the 1980s and 1990s when the classic Silver/Bronze Age Leaguers were getting trashed left and right.

I can't wait until the next age, when they start killing off the big gun Morrison JLAers!

[Astonishing X-Fan]

The worst part is the people who will scream "women in refridgerators!"

Seriously, male characters are humiliated and horribly killed just as much as females.

DC is an equal opportunity mutilator.

[stealthwise]

The worst part is the people who will scream "women in refridgerators!"

Seriously, male characters are humiliated and horribly killed just as much as females.

DC is an equal opportunity mutilator.

Eh... not with the same amount of frequency, given that there are FAR more prominent male characters.

[shyguy]

I don't think there's any more "hate" for the Giffen Justice League than there was for the Silver Age Justice League during the 1980s and 1990s when the classic Silver/Bronze Age Leaguers were getting trashed left and right.

Except when they drove Hal Jordan nuts, it wasn't done with a bunch of metacommentary on how bad old Green Lantern comics were and other little jabs that are frequently directed toward the Giffen JLA era (which, don't know you know, was all the - always evil - Maxwell Lord's nefarious scheme which somehow involved an "ineffectual" group of superheroes or whatever).

You have to ignore a lot of DC comics published in the past couple years to say that there isnt' some retroactive trashing of the Giffen JL going on.


Seriously, male characters are humiliated and horribly killed just as much as females.

Actually, not really. When you consider how there are comparitively fewer female characters running around the DCU, they sure do come to mind quickly when you think of the most awful things that DC has done to some of its characters (Alex in the refridgerator, Wonder Woman being strangled with her own lasso, Sue Dibny being retroactively raped and burned alive, Pantha getting her head punched off, Hippolye being burned to a crisp, etc.).

Being a woman in the DCU makes it a lot more likely that something pretty awful is going to happen to you at some point. Having been a prominent member of the Giffen Justice League means that something awful has probably already happened to you.

[the4thpip]

The worst part is the people who will scream "women in refridgerators!"

Seriously, male characters are humiliated and horribly killed just as much as females.

DC is an equal opportunity mutilator.
You're missing the point about WiR.

Women in comics are killed (and stuffed in refrigerators, thouh not always), or raped, or tortured, or maimed, to further the story of male heroes. Not in their own great stories.

You might notice that this is not an Ice Maiden comic book, but a Doc Midnight comic book.

Same way Killing Joke crippled Babs as a plot point in a Batman story, not a Batgirl story. Dinah was tortured and maimed (losing her super powers for a long time as a result) in a Green Arrow story, not a Black Canary story.
Check the original essay by Gail Simone. It's really not about "bad things happening" - it's about becoming suffering plot points in the men's stories.

[skally19]

uum. nightwing was raped. and uh. if you think writers have something against women, then i think that's kinda dumb. having problems with the killing joke cause it was babs who got crippled is dumb too. i hope i don't get banned for using dumb too much.

[the4thpip]

uum. nightwing was raped. and uh. if you think writers have something against women, then i think that's kinda dumb. having problems with the killing joke cause it was babs who got crippled is dumb too. i hope i don't get banned for using dumb too much.
Was Nightwing raped in a Wonder Woman comic, then?

[JelloBiafra]

So if it were the 25th issue of The Adventures of Batgirl where Babs got shot things would be okay?

Or If Dinah was tortured in Birds of Prey?

Should there be a rule that women only suffer pain in titles that they star in?

[the4thpip]

So if it were the 25th issue of The Adventures of Batgirl where Babs got shot things would be okay?

Or If Dinah was tortured in Birds of Prey?

Should there be a rule that women only suffer pain in titles that they star in?
Are you trying to be annoying?

The point is that women are victimized as plot points in the stories of male superheroes, while male heroes suffer in their own stories, usually to make them look more heroic, while the women are often stuck with the victim role (at least until somebody remembers them and does something worthwhile with them, like Ostrander did with Babs).

[TheTen-EyedMan]

The worst part is the people who will scream "women in refridgerators!"

Seriously, male characters are humiliated and horribly killed just as much as females.

DC is an equal opportunity mutilator.

Most comic writers are emotionally stunted, sexually repressed males and are pandering....sorry, selling to emotionally stunted, sexually repressed males.

I steal from Peter Finch's finest hour and mess with it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Finchsm.jpg

You're beginning to believe the illusions we're spinning here, you're beginning to believe that the comics are reality and your own lives are unreal. You do. Why, whatever the comics tells you: you dress like the comics, you eat like the comics, you raise your children like the comics, you even think like the comics. This are mass madness, you maniacs. In God's name, you people are the real thing, WE are the illusion.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Whatever. Over the past couple years, the amount of male character that have been horribly killed is easily double or triple the amount of female characters.

I like how everyone screams WiR over Pantha's death when two male Titans died at the same damn time.

And really, the whole, "they were used to support a male's story" thing is stupid. 90% of the comics out there star male characters. So yeah, if something bad happens to a female character, chances are it's going to happen in a book starring a male character. What, are writers supposed to not ever have something bad happen to any female character in the pages of a Batman or Flash or Green lantern book? No one gets this pissed off when a male character suffers to help another male character's story.

Gee, I wonder why Batgirl was crippled in a Batman story. Oh yeah, maybe because she was a BATMAN SUPPORTING CHARACTER. Like, DUH. It's no different than Dick Grayson losing his parents in a Batman story, or Spoiler and Jason Todd dying in Batman stories.

By the way, Max Lord died in the pages of Wonder Woman. Oh noes!!! Men in Refridgerators!

God people need to get over the WiR crap.

[the4thpip]

All I'm saying is that people who say we shouldn't cry WiR should
a. learn how to spell "refrigerator."
b. educate themselves to what is meant with the term. Go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Refrigerator).

And no, Pantha is not a "real WiR." But Ice Maiden (if that hint turns out to be true), is a classic case.

[the4thpip]

And really, the whole, "they were used to support a male's story" thing is stupid.
Are you calling Gail Simone stupid then?

[Agentum]

But well, when they bring back characters from limbo just to kill them off in some horribly way it feels a bit cheap i think.

It's clear that the character is not there for anything else than die, and they want som more points in using an character that some may know about instead of inventing a character to kill off.

I hope this kiling craze takes a vacation soon, i don't even think the storys has been that very good no matter how many they have killed.

[Jkid099]

Are you calling Gail Simone stupid then?

No, I believe Astonishing X-Fan clearly stated the concept is stupid. If he called Gail Simone stupid he would have said "Gail Simone is stupid." Just because someone shows distaste for the idea does not mean he or she feels the same about the person who came up with it.

[JelloBiafra]

Are you trying to be annoying?

The point is that women are victimized as plot points in the stories of male superheroes, while male heroes suffer in their own stories, usually to make them look more heroic, while the women are often stuck with the victim role (at least until somebody remembers them and does something worthwhile with them, like Ostrander did with Babs).

Yes, I am absolutely trying to be annoying.:rolleyes:

I am curious as to whether there has ever been any instance where a female character suffered that wasn't considered to be an example of WiR?

Like Supergirl getting killed in CRISIS, was that the work of a raging misogynist?

[titanfan]

Are we even 100% sure IceMaiden is going to die? There's always the chance she could be saved and the writer is just teasing us.

[Constantine Drakon]

I am curious as to whether there has ever been any instance where a female character suffered that wasn't considered to be an example of WiR?


Absolutely. In fact you're about to bring one up.



Like Supergirl getting killed in CRISIS, was that the work of a raging misogynist?

No, it is not. Supergirl died proving herself a hero. CRISIS was not the story of any one hero, and while her death certainly motivated others, it was not included simply for that reason. The same cannot likely be said for the death of Alex DeWitt, the crippling of Barbara Gordon, or the torture and depowerment of Black Canary which left her infertile. These things happened just to move along the hero's story. Though this is not necessarily misogyny, it is nonetheless unfortunate.

Although Gail boiled it down to "if you demolish most of the characters girls like, then girls won't read comics," for the purpose of this discussion it can be expanded on.

WiR refers to the use of the death or injury of a female comic book character as a plot device in a story starring a male comic book character - as a motivating tragedy for a male hero, to move his story along, and especially to create a grudge between him and a villain.

Now, the most common response is that "hurting a loved one" as a plot device crosses gender lines evenly, and that gender aside, the supposed death of long-running characters is common in comic books.

Looking at non-hero supporting cast members alone, is it the case that both genders are equally likely to be hurt? Perhaps. I haven't seen any dependable breakdown. Certainly the death of Jack Drake is fresh in our minds. I am inclined to say that it is not the case however, simply because (as someone pointed out) most books are about male superheroes and for whatever reason writers think it makes for a better story to go after girlfriends than male friends (how many girls has Daredevil gone through anyway? Less than the Savage Dragon, but that's not saying much.)

Looking at heroines tells a different story, however. How often has a male hero died or been severely injured (I'm not talking showing up in a cast next issue, I'm talking crippled, comatose, depowered, etc.) purely to cement anamosity between the hero and the villain? I'll see your Jason Todd and raise you a Spoiler, a character that had been around for far longer than Jason and who didn't get any nice glass case. Booster Gold? Blue Beetle? Horrible deaths, but they each went down in part of a story that was mainly about them. Jade (the only female Green Lantern of earth, if I remember right) is killed by some vague cosmic manipulations of Alex Luthor, in part of a story that really had nothing to do with her, and her death makes Kyle Rayner a more powerful character. I suppose Firestorm's death was equally stupid, but that was part of the larger plan of replacing him with a new non-white Firestorm. And yes several Titans died during Superboy Prime's rampage. Still, whose head was it that got punched off? That's a pretty strong image (and a stupid one if you think about it - apply that kind of force and the head will react like a watermelon to a sledgehammer, not fly off), and of all the Titans that were killed it was the woman who had it used on her. Again, it doesn't mean that a heroine can't be hurt without it being WiR. But if a viable heroine is, and it's for no other purpose than to move along a hero's story, or cement a villain's evilness or the like, and it seems to happen to a large enough percentage of heroines, people are going to start talking. Again, there doesn't have to be anything misogynist about it. It's simply that there are more male heroes with books than women, more female heroines that have to be supporting cast in men's books, and when writers want to hurt someone with emotinal investment to make the hero angry, they make good targets.

[Tobias March]

Most comic writers are emotionally stunted, sexually repressed males and are pandering....sorry, selling to emotionally stunted, sexually repressed males.

I steal from Peter Finch's finest hour and mess with it.


Any man who quotes Network is a good man in my book :)

Oh and WiR stands. The responses of various writers to Gail's page makes fascinating reading.

[Paul Newell]

Topic? What topic?