Spider-Girl's Peter Parker

[El Santo]

I just don't like how it seems as though every chance he gets, DeFalco finds some way of getting rid of Peter Parker. First he makes Peter a clone of some other "real" Spider-Man, and then through a kid. I like May and all, but why does Peter have to be a gimp in order for her to be Spider-Girl? I hate the Peter Parker of the Spider-Girl comics. He's not funny anymore, he tends to come off as kind of a weenie, and in issue #100 he just....ugh. How did experience make him a crappier Spider-Man? The "old" Spider-Man from "Happy Birthday" (ASM #498-500) was bad-ass, and he was much older, and facing death.

[bulbasteve]

I just don't like how it seems as though every chance he gets, DeFalco finds some way of getting rid of Peter Parker. First he makes Peter a clone of some other "real" Spider-Man, and then through a kid. I like May and all, but why does Peter have to be a gimp in order for her to be Spider-Girl? I hate the Peter Parker of the Spider-Girl comics. He's not funny anymore, he tends to come off as kind of a weenie, and in issue #100 he just....ugh. How did experience make him a crappier Spider-Man? The "old" Spider-Man from "Happy Birthday" (ASM #498-500) was bad-ass, and he was much older, and facing death.

Well Peter like...grew up and raised a kid, and your kid risking their life every night is bound to make you a bit more weenie, and really he didn't have the costume on for about 15 years you are bound to lose some of that fighting spark.

And anyway Pete has always been different in and out of the costume, he only really jokes around with the mask on, and he only puts it on nowadays in situations where even he wouldn't crack a joke.

[El Santo]

Well Peter like...grew up and raised a kid, and your kid risking their life every night is bound to make you a bit more weenie, and really he didn't have the costume on for about 15 years you are bound to lose some of that fighting spark.

And anyway Pete has always been different in and out of the costume, he only really jokes around with the mask on, and he only puts it on nowadays in situations where even he wouldn't crack a joke.

Really? Why couldn't raising a child who becomes a hero make him a stronger, better person? Even without the mask, Peter Parker's best trait has generally been his ability to roll with the punches and remain strong under pressures that would crush anybody else. Spider-Girl's Peter Parker looks like he's about to fall to pieces over just about anything. Plus that white streak and goatee look awful.

[bulbasteve]

Really? Why couldn't raising a child who becomes a hero make him a stronger, better person? Even without the mask, Peter Parker's best trait has generally been his ability to roll with the punches and remain strong under pressures that would crush anybody else. Spider-Girl's Peter Parker looks like he's about to fall to pieces over just about anything. Plus that white streak and goatee look awful.

Are we talking about the same Spidey? How many times has did he say he was totally seriously omg really going to hang up his webs? Heck "I am the Spider", he has snapped about just as many times.

Anyway as a father and forensic scientist he is probably doing more good than he ever did with the webs.

[El Santo]

Are we talking about the same Spidey? How many times has did he say he was totally seriously omg really going to hang up his webs? Heck "I am the Spider", he has snapped about just as many times.

Anyway as a father and forensic scientist he is probably doing more good than he ever did with the webs.
The difference is, he never actually did it before. And hanging up his tights isn't the same as turning into some kind of useless, goatee-wearing nancy-boy. Gah, I just really, really hate the way DeFalco writes Peter Parker. Even in a book where he's relegated to support character-status, he's too irritating for me to stand.

And how do you figure Peter Parker, a chemist and engineer brilliant enough to invent web fluid, mini-trackers that interact with his powers, web-shooters, and various devices/strategies to neutralize his enemies, and is now wasting all of that talent on simple forensic lab tests to be doing more good than he did as Spider-Man? Talk about your disappointing failures. He's let his mind atrophy along with his leg.

[bulbasteve]

The difference is, he never actually did it before. And hanging up his tights isn't the same as turning into some kind of useless, goatee-wearing nancy-boy. Gah, I just really, really hate the way DeFalco writes Peter Parker. Even in a book where he's relegated to support character-status, he's too irritating for me to stand.

Come on man, you say he is strong and rolls with the punches, then how do you explain like everything he did right before the Clone Saga? He went literally bat**** crazy. Hell didn't he even hit MJ once? Not exactly the kind of attitude you want to have bringing a kid up.

And how do you figure Peter Parker, a chemist and engineer brilliant enough to invent web fluid, mini-trackers that interact with his powers, web-shooters, and various devices/strategies to neutralize his enemies, and is now wasting all of that talent on simple forensic lab tests to be doing more good than he did as Spider-Man? Talk about your disappointing failures. He's let his mind atrophy along with his leg.

There is already Richards and Stark in terms of superscience. And don't you remember that Tangled Web story The System? The one where it showed that most of the criminals Spidey webbed up were let go because of the "Spider-Man Defense"? He probably has a better track record of putting criminals away now than he ever did as Spider-Man.

Heck pretty much the same thing happened to him in Earth X, he joins the police force and becomes a secondary character using none of his science know-how and noone complains about that.

The fact is this is how a mature Spider-Man should be, his greatest responsiblity is being there for his kid and taking care of her.

Not to mention this is all done from May's point of view, she doesn't know (and Peter doesn't show) that side of himself. Why would he? Think of all the crap Spidey went through in his costumed days? Would anyone want that for their kid? No matter how responsible they think they are they sure don't want them beat up, buried, drugged, losing loved ones and all the other stuff that happens. He wouldn't be a good parent if he was acting all happy go lucky and everything is going to be A OK and superheroing is just fun and games.

[El Santo]

Come on man, you say he is strong and rolls with the punches, then how do you explain like everything he did right before the Clone Saga? He went literally bat**** crazy. Hell didn't he even hit MJ once? Not exactly the kind of attitude you want to have bringing a kid up.

Since when are the only two options "be totally crazy" and "be a total weenie"? Spider-Man today is neither a weenie nor a psycho. The Spider-man of the future in "Happy Birthday" seemed to be in control of his faculties, accepted that whatever he did was absolutely necessary, and bravely faced his death. When you look at the Peter Parker of Spider-Girl, you'd never believe he ever was, or ever could be a hero. He's a useless human being.



There is already Richards and Stark in terms of superscience.
So...the existence of TWO scientists negates the existence of any more? What about T'Challa? Hank Pym? Hank McCoy? This is the worst excuse ever for Spider-Man suddenly becoming an idiot.


And don't you remember that Tangled Web story The System? The one where it showed that most of the criminals Spidey webbed up were let go because of the "Spider-Man Defense"? He probably has a better track record of putting criminals away now than he ever did as Spider-Man.

Right, because Tangled Web was totally canon. And no other superhero has faced this problem...to say nothing of the fact that being apprehended by citizen's arrest (basically what Spidey is doing when he webs up a mugger) doesn't excuse you from prosecution. This is called bad writing. Plus, Peter is now doing something that anyone could be doing. If he wasn't in that lab, one of a thousand other techs could do what he does there. How many of them could use their chemistry knowledge to develop medications, or even cures of diabetes and cancer? How many of them could knock out Dr. Octopus?


Heck pretty much the same thing happened to him in Earth X, he joins the police force and becomes a secondary character using none of his science know-how and noone complains about that.

The fact is this is how a mature Spider-Man should be, his greatest responsiblity is being there for his kid and taking care of her.
So, Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman are bad parents because they actually make themselves useful?

[bulbasteve]

Since when are the only two options "be totally crazy" and "be a total weenie"? Spider-Man today is neither a weenie nor a psycho. The Spider-man of the future in "Happy Birthday" seemed to be in control of his faculties, accepted that whatever he did was absolutely necessary, and bravely faced his death. When you look at the Peter Parker of Spider-Girl, you'd never believe he ever was, or ever could be a hero. He's a useless human being.

You still havent explained it. You said "Peter Parker's best trait has generally been his ability to roll with the punches and remain strong under pressures that would crush anybody else." He hasn't remained strong under pressures, he has snapped on more than one occation. He KNOWS what happens to him under pressure and he doesn't want his kid having to live through that, hell that was part of the reason why he retired the first time around in the Clone Saga. You think he wants to have one of those bust up the entire apartment episodes of his with a 2 or 3 year old kid there?

So...the existence of TWO scientists negates the existence of any more? What about T'Challa? Hank Pym? Hank McCoy? This is the worst excuse ever for Spider-Man suddenly becoming an idiot.

And the fact he was never much interested in becoming a super-scientist. Do you see him as a super-scientist now? No he is a teacher in 616, does that mean he is an idiot? Just because you aren't fufilling some supposed potential you have suddenly become an idiot is about the worst logic I can think of.

Right, because Tangled Web was totally canon. And no other superhero has faced this problem...to say nothing of the fact that being apprehended by citizen's arrest (basically what Spidey is doing when he webs up a mugger) doesn't excuse you from prosecution. This is called bad writing. Plus, Peter is now doing something that anyone could be doing. If he wasn't in that lab, one of a thousand other techs could do what he does there. How many of them could use their chemistry knowledge to develop medications, or even cures of diabetes and cancer? How many of them could knock out Dr. Octopus?

So what if something contradicts what you think it isn't canon? Sorry to burst your bubble but it happened and there has been no story to contradict it. As well as I said there are more than enough super-scientists far smarter than Parker, if Richards can't cure Cancer I really would doubt Peter could. And anyway you don't even know what his job really entails, this is SUPER-crime we are talking about, he seems to be the first on the scene for those, what is to say it does not involve SUPER-forensics?

So, Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman are bad parents because they actually make themselves useful?

Yeah remember how Psi-Lord had a mother in suspended animation for most of his life and his father was a robot? And how torn up he is about that? That is some great heroics, but bad parenting.

[El Santo]

Your entire argument seems to be based on DeFalco's interpetation of the characters...c'mon now, Psi-Lord?

And just because Peter has, in past stories, flipped out a bit doesn't change the general resiliency of his character. A trait firmly lacking in DeFalco's Peter Parker, because apparently DeFalco isn't happy unless Peter is some kind of drooling cripple.

The 616 Peter Parker has a good reason for not being a full-time scientist: he's too busy being a superhero. He doesn't have the resources and assistance that Reed Richards has, so he's not going to be able to spend that much time on research. But if/when Peter retires, it's ridiculous to think that he'd go into something as mundane as forensics. That's the kind of day job he would get while he was an active hero.

Honestly, I wish DeFalco would just grow the balls to do what he's been clearly wanting to do all these years and kill Peter off. He's useless to the story, he's useless to May (she already has a mentor in Urich, and she's closer to MJ anyway), and he's a waste of space as a human being.

[Arilou]

I think Peter Parker in Spider-Girl is perfectly in-character.

Remember, he lost his leg. He couldn't just go back to being Spidey again. So he took the next best thing, hung up his webs and got on with his life. Raised his child and spent time with his wife, while still doing what he could for the community at large.

And now his daughter is doing the same thing he did. And yeah, he understands that, but that doesen't mean he's not going to be worried silly. Every time she goes out there I bet he remembers all the time he only made it barely, and he'll think "What if she isn't as lucky?" And he'll worry, and fret. Because that's what parents do.

Heck, I doubt even MJ can really understand how dangeorus it is out there. And she has patched him up more than once.

I also suspect he wanted a relatively "low profile" job, just so that none of his former enemies would put two and two together and start coming after him.

EDIT: Not to mention that Peter has always been ambivalent towards being Spider-Man. Yeah, he feels he has to be, but I've always got the feeling that if he had an excuse that he himself could stand he'd quit within a second.

[Crimson]

This Spider-Man has responsibilities.

Can you imagine your parents partying, drinking, clubbing, date someone isn't suitable at all etc.? No... Because they give you a kick up the ass any time you do these things.

This is Peter as a parent, and it makes perfect sense he would become kind of a stuffy old dad. Responsibility is very important too him and has been since Amazing Fantasy #15

I personally feel Peter has to have some kind of injury of otherwise he’d rush into every fight May has to save her because that’s the guy he is. If he was in fine health their would be no logically chance for May to grow as a hero.

Edit: Was it even DeFalco who came up with the Clone Saga? He may of wrote some of the issues but I don't think he was brains for the "Get rid of Peter" thing.

You seem to looking over the two great runs he's had Spider-Man, and only looking at the bad stuff from one of them.

[Spidey-kid1]

Originally Posted by El Santo
Right, because Tangled Web was totally canon. And no other superhero has faced this problem...to say nothing of the fact that being apprehended by citizen's arrest (basically what Spidey is doing when he webs up a mugger) doesn't excuse you from prosecution. This is called bad writing. Plus, Peter is now doing something that anyone could be doing. If he wasn't in that lab, one of a thousand other techs could do what he does there. How many of them could use their chemistry knowledge to develop medications, or even cures of diabetes and cancer? How many of them could knock out Dr. Octopus?

Accually, any of them can knock out Doc Ock.
It wouldn't be that hard to biuld an EMP device
to take out the tenticles. Then they could use
whatever tech they got to knock him out.
Sleeping gas for example. They can make
it in a chemistry lab.

[littleredhat]

I happen to love Peter in Spider-Girl. He could no longer be Spider-Man so he did his best as Peter Parker.

And remember Peter is not just some police lab grunt he runs the place and has won dozens of awards from the city for his work.

He never seems out of character to me just older and shaped by his experiences.

[Alan2099]

I think Peter became a bit bitter since he lost his leg, but only a tad and it's understandable. There was always a part of him that loved swinging though the city and he couldn't get away with that anymore.

[El Santo]

Um...I didn't create this thread. :confused:

That said, I wouldn't expect the future Peter Parker to be a partying nutcase or irresponsible, because he isn't like that in 616 either. I do expect him to maintain his usual personality. I expect him to be a great father, a cool father. Instead he's this stodgy dork that makes the old 1960's Highschool Peter Parker seem like a fun-loving guy. And yes, he IS a useless lab drone in Spider-Girl. What does he do when he's not at work? Nothing. What kind of mentorship has he given his own daughter? She respects the freaking Gold Goblin more than she does Peter Parker, and I don't blame her.

I *hate* the way DeFalco writes Peter Parker, and I think it's pretty clear that he hates Peter Parker as well. I really do wish he would just kill him and get it over with. He's already killed the Peter Parker I know.

[El Santo]

I think Peter Parker in Spider-Girl is perfectly in-character.

Remember, he lost his leg. He couldn't just go back to being Spidey again. So he took the next best thing, hung up his webs and got on with his life. Raised his child and spent time with his wife, while still doing what he could for the community at large.

And now his daughter is doing the same thing he did. And yeah, he understands that, but that doesen't mean he's not going to be worried silly. Every time she goes out there I bet he remembers all the time he only made it barely, and he'll think "What if she isn't as lucky?" And he'll worry, and fret. Because that's what parents do.

Heck, I doubt even MJ can really understand how dangeorus it is out there. And she has patched him up more than once.

I also suspect he wanted a relatively "low profile" job, just so that none of his former enemies would put two and two together and start coming after him.

EDIT: Not to mention that Peter has always been ambivalent towards being Spider-Man. Yeah, he feels he has to be, but I've always got the feeling that if he had an excuse that he himself could stand he'd quit within a second.
Peter hasn't been ambivalent for years. In 616, he accepted his responsibilities and has sacrificed a lot of things to continue being Spider-Man. Like any hero, he does have priorities in terms of protecting his loved ones, but even now in Civil War, he tries to get them to safety first, then do what he has to do. He doesn't just quit so they can be safe.

As much as I find the character of May Parker intriguing, I can't stand to see Peter Parker reduced to the status of a whiny, nervous bitch.

[Arilou]

Peter hasn't been ambivalent for years.

Remember, the Spider-Girl timeline diverges "quite a few years back"

In fact, didn't Peter Quit being Spidey a bit after the Clone Saga, too?

I can't stand to see Peter Parker reduced to the status of a whiny, nervous bitch.

Heh, I find that completely in-character. He's always been a bit of a worrywort, and with Aunt May (the mother of all worryworts) I'd expect that trait to be even further exaggerated. He can't be out there webslinging anymore, and it makes sense that while he knows why his daughter is doing it he also wants to keep her from doing it.... Becuase it's not a happy life.

EDIT: And of course, like so many good people, he is unwilling to let others make the sacrifices he himself does daily.

[El Santo]

Remember, the Spider-Girl timeline diverges "quite a few years back"

In fact, didn't Peter Quit being Spidey a bit after the Clone Saga, too?



Heh, I find that completely in-character. He's always been a bit of a worrywort, and with Aunt May (the mother of all worryworts) I'd expect that trait to be even further exaggerated. He can't be out there webslinging anymore, and it makes sense that while he knows why his daughter is doing it he also wants to keep her from doing it.... Becuase it's not a happy life.

EDIT: And of course, like so many good people, he is unwilling to let others make the sacrifices he himself does daily.
Worrying is one thing; what made Spider-Man worth reading was that he did something about it. He wasn't just a passive wimp; he acted. Yes, he was nervous about the outcome of things, but he saw them through. He made something out of his life.

The Spider-Girl continuity throws all of that out. Peter Parker retired in his late 20's and went on to do...nothing. He didn't go back into science, he didn't teach (inspiring young kids to make something of themselves), hell, he didn't even mentor his own daughter. All that's left is for DeFalco to go back in time and retcon everything worthwhile Peter ever did, and he'll have succeeded.

[kalorama]

Worrying is one thing; what made Spider-Man worth reading was that he did something about it. He wasn't just a passive wimp; he acted. Yes, he was nervous about the outcome of things, but he saw them through. He made something out of his life.

The Spider-Girl continuity throws all of that out. Peter Parker retired in his late 20's and went on to do...nothing. He didn't go back into science, he didn't teach (inspiring young kids to make something of themselves), hell, he didn't even mentor his own daughter. All that's left is for DeFalco to go back in time and retcon everything worthwhile Peter ever did, and he'll have succeeded.

All kinds of wrong all over the place.

The SG Peter is a forensic scientist for the NYPD. He uses his brain to do the same thing he did with his fists as Spider-Man: put criminals behind bars and protect the publc.

As for not doing anything ... He raised his daughter to be a responsible, level-headed young adult with strong values and morals. Sounds like something to me.

Peter devoted most of his life to helping others, at great cost to himself, as Spider-Man. I canb't ee a reason to begrudge him the opportunity to pursue some quite happiness in his life, once being Spider-Man cost him his leg (and made it impossible for him to continue).

[Arilou]

The Spider-Girl continuity throws all of that out. Peter Parker retired in his late 20's and went on to do...nothing.

What do you mean "nothing"? He became a policeman, a pillar of the community. He raised a daughter, heck, he had the life he had always wanted. (As someone put it, Parker is a square. He wanted two kids a dog and a mortgage, at least since after Gwen died)

He kept it up because he felt responsible: As long as he had his powers he could not, in good conscience, just let things slide, when he lost his legs, new heroes started taking his place and so on and so forth he felt he could retire. The world was in safe hands, and he wouldn't of much help anyway.

hell, he didn't even mentor his own daughter

He did, but Mayday wouldn't have it. He was too cautious (partially due to Mary Jane not wanting to go through the hell of having another Spider-person again) and Mayday ignored him.

And I think that's *perfect* Peter Parker. Overprotective would be his middle name.

[El Santo]

All kinds of wrong all over the place.

The SG Peter is a forensic scientist for the NYPD. He uses his brain to do the same thing he did with his fists as Spider-Man: put criminals behind bars and protect the publc.

As for not doing anything ... He raised his daughter to be a responsible, level-headed young adult with strong values and morals. Sounds like something to me.

Peter devoted most of his life to helping others, at great cost to himself, as Spider-Man. I canb't ee a reason to begrudge him the opportunity to pursue some quite happiness in his life, once being Spider-Man cost him his leg (and made it impossible for him to continue).
The thing is, he never seems happy in Spider-Girl. So he hasn't found happiness, he lost his leg, he's doing a simpleton's job instead of really challenging his intellect, and his daughter is learning how to be a hero from everyone BUT him.

Sounds like a failure to me.

[kalorama]

The thing is, he never seems happy in Spider-Girl. So he hasn't found happiness, he lost his leg, he's doing a simpleton's job instead of really challenging his intellect, and his daughter is learning how to be a hero from everyone BUT him.

Sounds like a failure to me.

Well, I guess it's true: People hear what they want to hear.

[El Santo]

How is that inaccurate?

He's a distant, cold, and unsupportive parent.

His career has stalled in a dead-end technician job. If he was doing research that would be something, but he's doing a job that any intern could do.

He an MJ don't really seem to have any spark to their marriage anymore.

He never seems to be any happier than he was before he had children.

This is a happy ending for Peter Parker? I think he was better off being killed by the cyber-cops in Happy Birthday.

[Sonicjuce]

How is that inaccurate?
He's a distant, cold, and unsupportive parent.
His career has stalled in a dead-end technician job. If he was doing research that would be something, but he's doing a job that any intern could do.
He an MJ don't really seem to have any spark to their marriage anymore.
He never seems to be any happier than he was before he had children.
This is a happy ending for Peter Parker? I think he was better off being killed by the cyber-cops in Happy Birthday.
This may be a little extreme, but I see his point. Peter in Spider-girl really is all of the above said things. I see where everyone else is coming from saying he is acting like a parent though. I don't really know about an intern being able to do his job. It is also possible we don't see the spark b/w MJ and Peter because they are parents, and they have to act appropriate in front of their kids.

I do agree that I was never a huge fan of PP in SG. It could have been better. One thing I would say though is although he is not the Peter I want to see, he has still grown over the span of the book. The characterization has been really well done, so even if he is not a good character it is still a testament to DeFalco's abilities with character growth.

[Arilou]

The thing is, he never seems happy in Spider-Girl.

I think he seems perfectly happy.
Worried beyond his wits because his daughter is out risking her life? Hell yeah! But not *unhappy*.

And of course he whines! Remember, we see him from Mayday's POV. He's the parent of a teenager, they *always* come across as whiny.

he's doing a simpleton's job instead of really challenging his intellect

Hardly a simpletons job!

He's a distant, cold, and unsupportive parent.

False! I don't even see where you get that impression from. If anything he worries too much and is too involved.

Distant and uncaring!? If anything he's meddling and overprotective (which leads to Mayday distancing herself a bit)

His career has stalled in a dead-end technician job. If he was doing research that would be something, but he's doing a job that any intern could do.

He's doing well enough, yeah, he's hardly Anthony Stark, but then, I don't think he ever wanted to be.

He an MJ don't really seem to have any spark to their marriage anymore.

They've been married for what, 15 years? Of course they're not teenagers in love anymore. But they certainly seem to love each other and care for each other deeply.

He never seems to be any happier than he was before he had children.


Err, He strikes me as tcontent and (apart from worrying about Mayday) relatively at ease. Compared to the constant angsting that has been Peter's life as long as he has been Spider-Man this is the happiest portrayal he has *ever* had :p

This is a happy ending for Peter Parker? I think he was better off being killed by the cyber-cops in Happy Birthday.

It seems obvious that you either haven't read the book, or has a completely different definition of words than I do.

[El Santo]

I think he seems perfectly happy.
Worried beyond his wits because his daughter is out risking her life? Hell yeah! But not *unhappy*.

And of course he whines! Remember, we see him from Mayday's POV. He's the parent of a teenager, they *always* come across as whiny.

Geez, when was the last time you were a teenager? I don't know too many whiny parents.



Hardly a simpletons job!
Sure it is. If you're willing to go to school for about 4-6 years, you can work in a forensic lab. It's not hard. It's just rote memorization of procedures. There's no creativity, no real thinking, no research, and nothing new. All of the new forensic techniques are pioneered by researchers, not police CSI teams.


False! I don't even see where you get that impression from. If anything he worries too much and is too involved.

Distant and uncaring!? If anything he's meddling and overprotective (which leads to Mayday distancing herself a bit)

He doesn't relate well to his daughter, and I've never seen him try. He badgers her about her choice to be a superhero, and worries. That's not parenting! I've never seen him make a real effort to get to know May on her own terms, and that's just not how a parent should act with a teenager. Well, not if they want to have a healthy adult relationship with the kid when they grow up.


They've been married for what, 15 years? Of course they're not teenagers in love anymore. But they certainly seem to love each other and care for each other deeply.

Wow, you don't know any married couples, do you? I know several couples who have been married for more than 25 years who still spend time together, share moments together, have lunch, hang out, and generally still dig each other. Peter and MJ basically just live in the same house.

[Venom]

I don't know too many whiny parents.

You haven't met my mum mate.

[Arilou]

Geez, when was the last time you were a teenager? I don't know too many whiny parents.

Two years ago? Oh, not many parents are whiny, but there are very few teenagers who don't think their parents are whiny.



Sure it is. If you're willing to go to school for about 4-6 years, you can work in a forensic lab. It's not hard. It's just rote memorization of procedures. There's no creativity, no real thinking, no research, and nothing new. All of the new forensic techniques are pioneered by researchers, not police CSI teams.

That doesen't make it "a simpletons job".

He doesn't relate well to his daughter, and I've never seen him try. He badgers her about her choice to be a superhero, and worries. That's not parenting! I've never seen him make a real effort to get to know May on her own terms, and that's just not how a parent should act with a teenager. Well, not if they want to have a healthy adult relationship with the kid when they grow up.

Of course he badgers! He's worried! And he has a hard time getting to know his daughter who is, you know, most of the time away fighting Angel Face or Venom or the Goblin Queen, when she's not hanging with her friends.

I just don't see how you can interpet the characters that way, it's just.... Surreal.

Wow, you don't know any married couples, do you? I know several couples who have been married for more than 25 years who still spend time together, share moments together, have lunch, hang out, and generally still dig each other. Peter and MJ basically just live in the same house.

Err....What? I distinctly recall moments where they did all of those things.
And if they don't show that more, well, duh, we see them from Mayday's POV (a Mayday who is absent probably more than your average teenager, what with both the social life and the webslinging and all) so that's not really strange.

[El Santo]

Two years ago? Oh, not many parents are whiny, but there are very few teenagers who don't think their parents are whiny.

Just because YOU had whiny parents, doesn't mean we all did.



That doesen't make it "a simpletons job".

Yes, it does. If a simpleton can do it, then it's a simpleton's job. It's a waste of his life. If Reed Richards got a job at McDonald's, you'd say he was wasting his talent. Same thing here.


Of course he badgers! He's worried! And he has a hard time getting to know his daughter who is, you know, most of the time away fighting Angel Face or Venom or the Goblin Queen, when she's not hanging with her friends.

It's not what he does, it's what he doesn't do. He never just talks to her. He never does anything nice with her. He doesn't really have the relationship you'd expect a good father to have with his daughter. He cares, but he doesn't show it outside of whining. A good parent demonstrates their concern with more than just words. They make an effort to be part of their kid's life.


Err....What? I distinctly recall moments where they did all of those things.
And if they don't show that more, well, duh, we see them from Mayday's POV (a Mayday who is absent probably more than your average teenager, what with both the social life and the webslinging and all) so that's not really strange.

I don't expect a whole issue of their romantic relationship, but based on their dialogue, mannerisms, and the way you see them whenever they appear together...they just don't seem to be in love.

[Edward J Cunningham]

I like May and all, but why does Peter have to be a gimp in order for her to be Spider-Girl?

Yes. Knowing Peter's sense of responsibility, I am not sure that even the responsibility of raising up a daughter would be enough to force him to hang up his webs. Losing his leg and almost leaving her an orphan would.

Amazing Spider-Girl is not for everybody. It is set in the next generation of Marvel's heroes. The bigger names of the current Marvel Universe take a back seat to the younger generation. I'm glad that you like Mayday, but if you do not like an older, retired Peter Parker taking a supporting role in Mayday's book, perhaps you would be better off sticking to the main Spidey books.

[Arilou]

Just because YOU had whiny parents, doesn't mean we all did.

I don't think my parents were whiny.... Now. When I was a teenager it was a different matter, and most of my friends and classmates thought the same thing.

Yes, it does. If a simpleton can do it, then it's a simpleton's job. It's a waste of his life. If Reed Richards got a job at McDonald's, you'd say he was wasting his talent. Same thing here.

But a simpleton couldn't do forensics now could he?

Especially not award-winning ones.

It's not what he does, it's what he doesn't do. He never just talks to her. He never does anything nice with her. He doesn't really have the relationship you'd expect a good father to have with his daughter. He cares, but he doesn't show it outside of whining. A good parent demonstrates their concern with more than just words. They make an effort to be part of their kid's life.

*shrugs* I think he does. Certainly he seems to care more than any other comic-book parent I can think off....

I don't expect a whole issue of their romantic relationship, but based on their dialogue, mannerisms, and the way you see them whenever they appear together...they just don't seem to be in love.

I just have to disagree with you on this.

[El Santo]

Yes. Knowing Peter's sense of responsibility, I am not sure that even the responsibility of raising up a daughter would be enough to force him to hang up his webs. Losing his leg and almost leaving her an orphan would.

Amazing Spider-Girl is not for everybody. It is set in the next generation of Marvel's heroes. The bigger names of the current Marvel Universe take a back seat to the younger generation. I'm glad that you like Mayday, but if you do not like an older, retired Peter Parker taking a supporting role in Mayday's book, perhaps you would be better off sticking to the main Spidey books.
I don't mind him being older and retired. It's the utter lack of dignity in how the character is portrayed. I want to see him with a REAL job, making a REAL difference, even as a civilian. Him becoming some sort of nerdy cop does nothing for me.

[Arilou]

I don't mind him being older and retired. It's the utter lack of dignity in how the character is portrayed. I want to see him with a REAL job, making a REAL difference, even as a civilian. Him becoming some sort of nerdy cop does nothing for me.

You know, you seem to hold an awful lot of contempt for the profession of being a policeman.

[Alan2099]

So what would you like him to be doing? He's using his scientific knowledge and fighting crime at the same time. The only thing he isn't doing much of anymore is picture taking.

[El Santo]

I don't think my parents were whiny.... Now. When I was a teenager it was a different matter, and most of my friends and classmates thought the same thing.
No comment, other than to say that this is not universal. I had other complaints about my parents as a teenager.



But a simpleton couldn't do forensics now could he?

Especially not award-winning ones.

Do you even know what that job entails? He's just another CSI guy. It doesn't take a genius to excel in that position. And he hasn't even managed to score a promotion.

*shrugs* I think he does. Certainly he seems to care more than any other comic-book parent I can think off....

What? Without even trying, I can think of plenty of more caring comic book parents:

May Parker
Ma and Pa Kent (raised Clark, Kon, Supergirl)
Bruce Wayne (raised Dick Grayson)
Black Lightning (father of Thunder)
Reed and Sue Richards

All of these people have a more positive relationship with their kids than Peter does, even when their kids were teens.

And really, can you name the last time Spider-Girl's Peter Parker and Mary Jane acted like they were in love? When was the last time they even kissed?

[El Santo]

So what would you like him to be doing? He's using his scientific knowledge and fighting crime at the same time. The only thing he isn't doing much of anymore is picture taking.
Research. I'd like to see him curing diseases, designing new things for law enforcement to use, developing treatments for mutants dying of the Legacy Virus or something...something worthy of the most underrated intellect in the Marvel Universe.

[kalorama]

How is that inaccurate?

Well, since you asked:

He's a distant, cold, and unsupportive parent.

Wrong. He's quite a clearly and unambiguously very concerned and caring parent. He wants the best for his daughter and (crazy him) in his mind that means discouraging her from following his footsteps into a "career" that could get her killed before she graduates high school. He knows first hand the kind of pain (physical and otherwise) and heartache wearing that costume can bring. And, like any number of caring parents, he wants his daughter to have an easier/better life than he had.

His career has stalled in a dead-end technician job. If he was doing research that would be something, but he's doing a job that any intern could do.

He's a forensic scientist/analyst for the police. A job that's vital to gaining convictions of dangerourous criminals. And if you think any intern could do it, you clearly know nothing of what the job entails.

He an MJ don't really seem to have any spark to their marriage anymore.

Ask anyone who's been married for 20 years (or anyone who knows anyone who'se been married that long) and most would tell you they wished they had as much "spark" as those two.

He never seems to be any happier than he was before he had children.

Based on what? Happiness doesn't always meean dancing around with a giant smile. He's a man in his 40s in a loving marriage with a woman he loves and two kids. The kinbd of happiness in that scenario is a lot different than the kind of happiness you'd expect to see in a 24 year old single guy.

This is a happy ending for Peter Parker? I think he was better off being killed by the cyber-cops in Happy Birthday.

Well, that's just silly.

Bottom line, really, is that most of your complaints are undercut by the simple fact that the book is not about Peter and Mary Jane. They're supporting characters who get relatively limited screen time. Making sweepingly negative generalizations about the state of their relationship is mostly speculation, because we don't really know the full details of what happens in their lives when May's not around. That's not what the book is about. But what we do see pretty well refutes your argument.

[kalorama]

You know, you seem to hold an awful lot of contempt for the profession of being a policeman.

To say nothing of being a husband and parent.

[El Santo]

To say nothing of being a husband and parent.
If he was a good husband and father, I'd have no complaints. But he's not. Being a good parent requires more than just worrying and nagging. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: he takes no interest whatsoever in May as a person. He knows nothing about her life, other than the fact that she wants to be a superhero, and he doesn't like that. He never asks or seems to have any knowledge about her personal life.

[Arilou]

If he was a good husband and father, I'd have no complaints. But he's not. Being a good parent requires more than just worrying and nagging. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: he takes no interest whatsoever in May as a person. He knows nothing about her life, other than the fact that she wants to be a superhero, and he doesn't like that. He never asks or seems to have any knowledge about her personal life.

Err, didn't he have quite a lot of discussions about her interests and the fact that she gave up basketball, about her various prospective boyfriends, etc. etc.?

[El Santo]

Err, didn't he have quite a lot of discussions about her interests and the fact that she gave up basketball, about her various prospective boyfriends, etc. etc.?
Right, as part of his usual obsession with getting her to quit. Where was his interest when she was actually playing basketball and dating? And where is his concern when she's making googly eyes at Normie Osborn, the guy who has tortured and tried to kill her?

[Arilou]

Right, as part of his usual obsession with getting her to quit. Where was his interest when she was actually playing basketball and dating? And where is his concern when she's making googly eyes at Normie Osborn, the guy who has tortured and tried to kill her?

Err, he was showing a lot of concern about Normie!

[matrix]

:confused: um after reading through this thread i just got to say does peter parker have to be the same character in every universe he appears in. i mean his portrayal in spider-girl is the closest non-tradition characterzation that actually last longer than two years. :p dude, if you hate his character in spider-girl read most of Howard Mackie run and tell me which is worse.

[littleredhat]

Just one thing.


Peter is a top forensic scientist in NYC. In the third issue he is said to have recieve a comendation from the Mayor complete with a big ceremony.

And I think that Peter would still want to fight crime even if he was unable to be Spider-Man.

So he became a CSI. A great one.

[El Santo]

Just one thing.


Peter is a top forensic scientist in NYC. In the third issue he is said to have recieve a comendation from the Mayor complete with a big ceremony.

And I think that Peter would still want to fight crime even if he was unable to be Spider-Man.

So he became a CSI. A great one.

That's like the Black Panther quitting his job and becoming the best damn Burger King nigh manager EVER.

[Effect]

I think at this point we can conclude that El Santo has to either be arguing for the sake of arguing or he seriously has no clue what he's reading or reading something completely different from is in Spider-girl.

How he's coming up with his conclusions here is beyond me.

El Santo, what is with your hate or general dismissiveness of the police profession anyway? Do you know exactly what Peter's job is like when you look at the real world version and the kind of knowledge a person needs to have?

I don't think all parents are the same. However just because your parents or childhood was one way doesn't mean that May's has to be. May and Peter's relationship could be similar or dissimilar to millions of kids and parents. Kids try to pull away. Parents sometimes don't understand the kids. Sometimes the exact opposite happens. Of course he's going to keep trying to get her to stop being Spider-girl. He knows first hand how dangerous the job is and will try to use every chance he can to make her stop. Him trying to get her to stop is a clear example of how much he cares. I'd be more worried if he wasn't trying to get her to stop or wasn't worried about her. She of course will have her own opinion about it and will try to be her own person which goes against his concerns. I don't think that's a lack of respect but it can appear that way. We don't want May being a yes person and not having her own personality.

As for marraige. I've been around plenty of married couples, including my own parents. Each one of them were different and expressed their love for one another in different ways. You just change over time as a couple. Some couples can't keep their hands off of each other while others are just happy being around the other person and not saying anything. Hell some like arguing all the time and that's how they express their feelings after a time. Like anything, there is no set way how one acts or should act. Hell my own parents can go from all smiles with each other to arguing and getting pissed the next minute to being fine a few hours later and have been together for over 20 years.. How they act is completely different form my aunts and uncles or even my grandparents or friends that are married. You just aren't going to keep that same "spark" you had when you were younger. Especially not after kids and life in general. The relationship takes on a different tone and direction and for a LOT of people they are fine with that, expect it, and happy that it does change or even prefer it.

[bulbasteve]

And really, can you name the last time Spider-Girl's Peter Parker and Mary Jane acted like they were in love? When was the last time they even kissed?

Uuuh you know May just got a baby brother recently, right? Let me tell you about the birds and the bees kiddo, it takes a lot more than just kissing to get one of them bundles of joy :p

I mean really, I don't know what hippie commune you were raised on, but in many households the parents don't share their affections in front of their kids. May is literally gone all day and night most of the time, you think they don't have enough self control to lay their hands off each other when their kid comes in the house all bruised up from a super-fight?

[El Santo]

Just to clear things up, I *have* read the comic. I read the whole first TPB (the old one), some random issues in the middle, and issue 100 of the old series. I'm not a huge fan of the series, so I don't read it religiously. But people keep talking about it, so I checked it out from time to time.

Peter Parker, in Spider-Girl, is a weenie. Period. There's no defending it. He gave up on life. What he does for a living is fine...for a regular person. But he's a genius. He has experiences that a regular person doesn't have. He should be doing more with his "retirement". He should be able to relate to his daughter at least as well as his wife does, but instead he just watches her from the outside. And his marriage to MJ just looks...cold. If I didn't know better, I wouldn't even think they were married. Ma and Pa Kent have more chemistry going on.

[Arilou]

Just to clear things up, I *have* read the comic. I read the whole first TPB (the old one), some random issues in the middle, and issue 100 of the old series.

Which means you haven't read the series.

Oh, you've read parts of it. But you haven't read the series.

[El Santo]

Well, I'd be kind of an idiot if I read every issue of a series that I didn't like.

[Arilou]

True, but reading the first TPB, the last issue and "some random issues in the middle" hardly gives you the authority to describe Peter's character now does it?

It actually explains a lot, yeah, I can see how you'd get that impression if you didn't read the entire series.

[becominAfanAgain]

Your entire argument seems to be based on DeFalco's interpetation of the characters...c'mon now, Psi-Lord?

And just because Peter has, in past stories, flipped out a bit doesn't change the general resiliency of his character. A trait firmly lacking in DeFalco's Peter Parker, because apparently DeFalco isn't happy unless Peter is some kind of drooling cripple.

The 616 Peter Parker has a good reason for not being a full-time scientist: he's too busy being a superhero. He doesn't have the resources and assistance that Reed Richards has, so he's not going to be able to spend that much time on research. But if/when Peter retires, it's ridiculous to think that he'd go into something as mundane as forensics. That's the kind of day job he would get while he was an active hero.

Honestly, I wish DeFalco would just grow the balls to do what he's been clearly wanting to do all these years and kill Peter off. He's useless to the story, he's useless to May (she already has a mentor in Urich, and she's closer to MJ anyway), and he's a waste of space as a human being.

Well I agree with bulbasteve on most of the stuff El Santo is complaining about. The main think you have to remember is that the book is from May's point of view, so her father is going to seem kind of preachy and weenie/nagging. That's how most teenagers see their parents. And I don't see anything wrong with being a forensics scientist all Peter really care about is helping stopping criminal which is what he's doing as a forensics scientist. Heck his a school teacher in 616 universe.

[Crimson]

Um...I didn't create this thread. :confused:

That said, I wouldn't expect the future Peter Parker to be a partying nutcase or irresponsible, because he isn't like that in 616 either. I do expect him to maintain his usual personality. I expect him to be a great father, a cool father. Instead he's this stodgy dork that makes the old 1960's Highschool Peter Parker seem like a fun-loving guy. And yes, he IS a useless lab drone in Spider-Girl. What does he do when he's not at work? Nothing. What kind of mentorship has he given his own daughter? She respects the freaking Gold Goblin more than she does Peter Parker, and I don't blame her.

I *hate* the way DeFalco writes Peter Parker, and I think it's pretty clear that he hates Peter Parker as well. I really do wish he would just kill him and get it over with. He's already killed the Peter Parker I know.

Peter's job allows him to use science and fight crime.

Also, Peter for the majority of the time is only "cool" when he's Spider-Man.

It's only since his ID has become more and more known the two seem to have merged.

Just to clear things up, I *have* read the comic. I read the whole first TPB (the old one), some random issues in the middle, and issue 100 of the old series. I'm not a huge fan of the series, so I don't read it religiously. But people keep talking about it, so I checked it out from time to time.

Peter Parker, in Spider-Girl, is a weenie. Period. There's no defending it. He gave up on life. What he does for a living is fine...for a regular person. But he's a genius. He has experiences that a regular person doesn't have. He should be doing more with his "retirement". He should be able to relate to his daughter at least as well as his wife does, but instead he just watches her from the outside. And his marriage to MJ just looks...cold. If I didn't know better, I wouldn't even think they were married. Ma and Pa Kent have more chemistry going on.

He relates to the danger. It's like doctors who are more freaked out when their kids hurt themselves because they have seen the worse case scenerio.

Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborn, Norman Osborn, Captain Stacy, Betty Brant's Brother... all these people died and he fears his daughter could end up dead too. He'd rather she didn't do it but she goes ahead and does it anyway.

He has trained her a few times.

[El Santo]

Well I agree with bulbasteve on most of the stuff El Santo is complaining about. The main think you have to remember is that the book is from May's point of view, so her father is going to seem kind of preachy and weenie/nagging. That's how most teenagers see their parents. And I don't see anything wrong with being a forensics scientist all Peter really care about is helping stopping criminal which is what he's doing as a forensics scientist. Heck his a school teacher in 616 universe.
I'd rather him still be a school teacher. The country actually has a shortage of those, and he'd be doing more good in the long run.

[El Santo]

True, but reading the first TPB, the last issue and "some random issues in the middle" hardly gives you the authority to describe Peter's character now does it?.

Sure it does. Since when do you have to read every last appearance of a character to comment on them? Tell me, have you read EVERY Spider-Man comic book ever printed? No? Then how dare you discuss him on an internet messageboard?

I've read a reasonable chunk of the book, and I find Peter to be offensively out of character. Regular Peter Parker GREW UP from High School. Even outside of the costume, while he's not as sarcastic, he's still a pretty regular guy. He is not a weenie. It's as though DeFalco has something against smart people. He'd rather Spider-Man be someone like Ben Reilly, or May Parker (athlete, most popular girl in school, etc.).

[Alan2099]

Spider-man has a daughter.
His daughter is in a dangerous line of work.
He's lost a leg doing the same line of work.
He's older.
He no longer has his main method of stress relief to clear his head.

Any one of those would make the character act a bit more serious.

[El Santo]

Spider-man has a daughter.
His daughter is in a dangerous line of work.
He's lost a leg doing the same line of work.
He's older.
He no longer has his main method of stress relief to clear his head.

Any one of those would make the character act a bit more serious.
Funny, Peter has never let life break him before. I guess that's one of the "character growths" that DeFalco has written huh?

[Peter Parker]

Meh, when the writers are changed, the story gets weird at times.

It might be good to get ol' Stan to write once again.

[Beacon]

I just don't like how it seems as though every chance he gets, DeFalco finds some way of getting rid of Peter Parker. First he makes Peter a clone of some other "real" Spider-Man, and then through a kid. I like May and all, but why does Peter have to be a gimp in order for her to be Spider-Girl? I hate the Peter Parker of the Spider-Girl comics. He's not funny anymore, he tends to come off as kind of a weenie, and in issue #100 he just....ugh. How did experience make him a crappier Spider-Man? The "old" Spider-Man from "Happy Birthday" (ASM #498-500) was bad-ass, and he was much older, and facing death.

DeFalco didn’t get rid of Peter Parker in the MC2 universe; he got rid of Spider-Man (assuming we don’t count the times Peter suited up after his retirement or that Drew idiot). Peter is still there and he’s hardly a weenie. Heck, its arguable he does more good as a police scientist because now he can insure that the evidence keeps criminals jail instead of catching them in the act, webbing them to a lamppost, and hoping for the best.

[El Santo]

DeFalco didn’t get rid of Peter Parker in the MC2 universe; he got rid of Spider-Man (assuming we don’t count the times Peter suited up after his retirement or that Drew idiot). Peter is still there and he’s hardly a weenie. Heck, its arguable he does more good as a police scientist because now he can insure that the evidence keeps criminals jail instead of catching them in the act, webbing them to a lamppost, and hoping for the best.
Wrong; he destroyed Peter Parker. The only reason he's even in the comic is because DeFalco didn't feel like writing MJ have an immaculate conception. There is little to nothing of Peter's personality left in the portrayal in the book, and his daughter doesn't really take after him at all, other than having a strong sense of responsibility and spider powers.

[Beacon]

Wrong; he destroyed Peter Parker. The only reason he's even in the comic is because DeFalco didn't feel like writing MJ have an immaculate conception. There is little to nothing of Peter's personality left in the portrayal in the book, and his daughter doesn't really take after him at all, other than having a strong sense of responsibility and spider powers.

MC2 Peter "only" having a "strong sense of responsibility and spider powers" is still more Spider-Man than the guy in the "canon" books now.

[El Santo]

MC2 Peter "only" having a "strong sense of responsibility and spider powers" is still more Spider-Man than the guy in the "canon" books now.
...you're obviously not reading any "canon" books right now, then.

Also, I was referring to May as having those things. Really, she's about as related to Peter as Spider-Woman is, for all intents and purposes.

[Beacon]

...you're obviously not reading any "canon" books right now, then.

Why would I? I haven’t enjoyed the core books across the board since before the reboot and it has become harder and harder to find decent “canon” stories since Paul Jenkins’ stopped doing single issue stories in Peter Parker: Spider-Man. I’ll take the real Peter as wallpaper in MC2 over the high profile imposter in Civil War. JMS drove me away from Amazing years ago and I’ve tried to give Sensational a chance but it’s terrible (Spidey picking fights with a powerful villain in a crowded museum? I thought this registration BS was supposed to be about accountability). What I’ve seen of FN has been okay but ultimately PAD is just – to use a cliché – rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[kalorama]

So it's becoming clearer and clearer that El Santo's real problem isn't with Peter, police officers, husbands, or fathers. It really seems to be with Tom DeFalco. Which, of course, raises the question: Since it's a book written by a writer you appear to despise, featuring a depiction of a character you can't stomach, why are you reading it? And if you aren't reading it, why are you wasting time complaining about it?

[El Santo]

Why would I? I haven’t enjoyed the core books across the board since before the reboot and it has become harder and harder to find decent “canon” stories since Paul Jenkins’ stopped doing single issue stories in Peter Parker: Spider-Man. I’ll take the real Peter as wallpaper in MC2 over the high profile imposter in Civil War. JMS drove me away from Amazing years ago and I’ve tried to give Sensational a chance but it’s terrible (Spidey picking fights with a powerful villain in a crowded museum? I thought this registration BS was supposed to be about accountability). What I’ve seen of FN has been okay but ultimately PAD is just – to use a cliché – rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
If you took your head out of the sand and actually READ the books, you'd see that Ultimate Spider-Man does a better job of paying homage to the classic high-school Spider-Man than DeFalco ever has, and Straczinsky's Spider-Man is one of the most humanistic and responsible interpetations of the character EVER. Outside of Sins Past, I've yet to hear a valid gripe about 616 Spider-Man being out of character.

I can't really comment about Sensational though, since the art was so bad I couldn't read past page 1.

[Alan2099]

I can't stand the majority of the kids in Ultimate Spider-man. That includes Peter. I really don't see any homage in that. It's not like he even hangs out with them or cares about them much anymore.

Straczinsky's version may be the most humanistic and responsible ever, (which i doubt, but for sake of arguement let's say he is.) he also strikes me as the most dull and unintresting version being published now.

Outside of Sins past, I'd say Peter's unmasking was extremely out of character, as was when he took MJ and Aunt May with him to raid Doom's castle, and those are just off the top of my head. I'd say it's quite out of character for a person that's supposed to worry about his family and make sure their safe to actualy go out of his way to make them targets.

[El Santo]

I can't stand the majority of the kids in Ultimate Spider-man. That includes Peter. I really don't see any homage in that. It's not like he even hangs out with them or cares about them much anymore.

Straczinsky's version may be the most humanistic and responsible ever, (which i doubt, but for sake of arguement let's say he is.) he also strikes me as the most dull and unintresting version being published now.

Outside of Sins past, I'd say Peter's unmasking was extremely out of character, as was when he took MJ and Aunt May with him to raid Doom's castle, and those are just off the top of my head. I'd say it's quite out of character for a person that's supposed to worry about his family and make sure their safe to actualy go out of his way to make them targets.

1. May and MJ were wearing Iron Man armor, Peter was dying, and that issue was written by Reginald Hudlin, not Straczinsky.

2. You and I have very different definitions of 'dull'.

3. The unmasking made a lot of sense in the context of Tony Stark's increasing "fatherly" influence over Peter, and has made for an interesting story.

But I suppose if you prefer a book about people who never change, a Peter Parker who never does anything vaguely exciting with his life, and where the resident Spider-Person is the most popular kid in school, good-looking, and always successful, then that's what Spider-Girl is for. People who like the costume of Spider-Man, and that's about it.

[Alan2099]

1. May and MJ were wearing Iron Man armor, Peter was dying, and that issue was written by Reginald Hudlin, not Straczinsky.
You said you hadn't heard any complaints about 616 Spider-man. You didn't say you hadn't heard any complaints about Straczinsky Spider-man.

Of course with Peter dying, that makes it even worse. He's even less likely to be able to defend two people with no practicle combat experience wearing obsolute armor and storming Dr. Doom's castle.

2. You and I have very different definitions of 'dull'.
I'm glad to hear that.

3. The unmasking made a lot of sense in the context of Tony Stark's increasing "fatherly" influence over Peter, and has made for an interesting story.
Nothing about Civil War has been intresting, and the idea of Tony being a father figure is mornic. You complain that Peter doesn't help Spider-girl enough, but he's never outright manipulated her or threatened her. He may have grounded her a time or two, but that's about it.

But I suppose if you prefer a book about people who never change, a Peter Parker who never does anything vaguely exciting with his life, and where the resident Spider-Person is the most popular kid in school, good-looking, and always successful, then that's what Spider-Girl is for. People who like the costume of Spider-Man, and that's about it.
I suppose if you like a Spider-man that doesn't act like Peter Parker, gets pushed around and manipulated by guys that are supposed to be "father figures", doesn't wear the old Spider-suit, and has magical powers, and has no life outside of the super hero set, then you're all set too.

Glad we've each found something we can enjoy. :p

[El Santo]

You said you hadn't heard any complaints about 616 Spider-man. You didn't say you hadn't heard any complaints about Straczinsky Spider-man.

Of course with Peter dying, that makes it even worse. He's even less likely to be able to defend two people with no practicle combat experience wearing obsolute armor and storming Dr. Doom's castle.

You've...just never read "The Other", have you? You're basing your gripes on something you read ABOUT it. He was still able to fight in his condition. And again, putting this on JMS is kind of dumb, seeing as he didn't write the damn book.

Nothing about Civil War has been intresting
I could say something insulting here, but why bother? Suffice it to say that myself and a few hundred thousand other people disagree with you.

and the idea of Tony being a father figure is mornic. You complain that Peter doesn't help Spider-girl enough, but he's never outright manipulated her or threatened her. He may have grounded her a time or two, but that's about it.

A father figure and a father are two different things, and neither of them is the same as a *good father*. Tony Stark did a lot of nice things for Peter, and took him under his wing. Peter felt obligated to follow Tony's lead, until he realized the full scope of what Tony was doing. He learned an important lesson about being his own man, and making a tough choice that could endanger his loved ones. Going along with Stark was, at the time, the best thing for May and MJ, because they were in the safest place possible (Tony Stark's home), and doing so kept them out of the reach of the legal authorities. Refusing, as he is doing now, endangers them, but it also honors the trust they have in Peter to do the right thing.

Moral complexity, true personal growth, navigating grey areas to find the "right" thing to do...I can see why this would be foreign to you, reading DeFalco's work.

I suppose if you like a Spider-man that doesn't act like Peter Parker, gets pushed around and manipulated by guys that are supposed to be "father figures", doesn't wear the old Spider-suit, and has magical powers, and has no life outside of the super hero set, then you're all set too.

He doesn't have magical powers. At most, he's gained an upgrade to his existing powers, learned of a different interpetation of his origin that may or may not be valid, and gained a couple of stingers. Compared to the shapeshifting clothes and endless webbing he got from the alien costume, this isn't really much worse. And it's temporary. The current 616 Peter Parker is much closer to the one I remember from childhood than the blubbering, distant, out-of-touch failure that he's become in Spider-Girl.

[Alan2099]

I like how you accuse me of not reading something I criticise when you openly admitted you didn't read what you're critisizing.

Pot meet kettle.

El Santo, meet igore button.

[Beacon]

See the real tragedy of this is that if I’d already read through this whole thread before posting I would have read the post Effect made a page ago where it’s pointed out quite succinctly that El Santo was “arguing for the sake of arguing or he seriously has no clue what he's reading or reading something completely different from (what) is in Spider-Girl”. Instead I had to waste time by getting involved with posting in this conversation and figure it out myself as his arguments become more and more nonsensical as they completely change to suit the situation. On the bright side, Alan and Kalo have already said just about everything I was thinking (though certainly not necessarily the way I would have said it) and saved me a lot of trouble.

[El Santo]

I like how you accuse me of not reading something I criticise when you openly admitted you didn't read what you're critisizing.

Pot meet kettle.

El Santo, meet igore button.
I *did* read it. I read it before,I read it recently, and I read a bit of it in between. You don't have to read the entirety of a character's appearances to comment on them, otherwise this would be a very quiet forum.

[bulbasteve]

Funny, Peter has never let life break him before. I guess that's one of the "character growths" that DeFalco has written huh?

Clearly you are not only not reading Spider-Girl but 616 spidey or even the previous posts on this very topic because life has broken Spider-Man MANY times before. I mean jesus dude, didn't I just talk about his whole "I am the Spider" phase a page or two back? Weren't you around in the 90s?

[El Santo]

Clearly you are not only not reading Spider-Girl but 616 spidey or even the previous posts on this very topic because life has broken Spider-Man MANY times before. I mean jesus dude, didn't I just talk about his whole "I am the Spider" phase a page or two back? Weren't you around in the 90s?
Is he broken now? No? Then guess what? That means life didn't break him. Life breaks Peter Parker down, but he always gets up again...unless you're in the MC2 Universe, where he has apparently settled into the life of a broken man.

[Effect]

You'd do well to remember that MC2 Spidey lost a leg. Didn't have it broken but lost it as in gone, only having one leg. That is a extremely dramatic thing to have happen to you, especailly when its when he took down his most dangerous villian. It's not unreasonable for him to realize that he could stop or to evne realize he had to do stop. Also remember he was still Spidey even after May was born. I believe this was also said in this thread.

He's simply changed as a result of his experiences. I'm pretty sure when you have a family and children (as I don't have any myself) your outlook on life and what is important to you will change. As well as what will make you happy and what you desire out of life. I don't see why Spidey wouldn't go through these changes as well.

It isn't a destorying of the character but a simple progression as a result of events in his life. Events that 616 Spider-man has not gone through.

[El Santo]

You'd do well to remember that MC2 Spidey lost a leg. Didn't have it broken but lost it as in gone, only having one leg. That is a extremely dramatic thing to have happen to you, especailly when its when he took down his most dangerous villian. It's not unreasonable for him to realize that he could stop or to evne realize he had to do stop. Also remember he was still Spidey even after May was born. I believe this was also said in this thread.

He's simply changed as a result of his experiences. I'm pretty sure when you have a family and children (as I don't have any myself) your outlook on life and what is important to you will change. As well as what will make you happy and what you desire out of life. I don't see why Spidey wouldn't go through these changes as well.

It isn't a destorying of the character but a simple progression as a result of events in his life. Events that 616 Spider-man has not gone through.

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself here.

I don't have a problem with him retiring; I mean really, if he was still Spider-Man, it would kind of horn in on Spider-Girl's job, eh? My problem is with:

1. The manner of his retirement
2. The personality (or lack thereof) he is written with
3. The cold, loveless way that his marriage is portrayed
4. How terrible he seems as a father; the Peter Parker I know is a guy that May could look up to.

[bulbasteve]

Is he broken now? No? Then guess what? That means life didn't break him. Life breaks Peter Parker down, but he always gets up again...unless you're in the MC2 Universe, where he has apparently settled into the life of a broken man.

What you said was "Peter has never let life break him before". Just because he puts himself back together again does NOT mean he was not broken in the first place, life doesn't just "retcon" the bad things out of existence.

1. The manner of his retirement

He had a kid and thought his greater responsibility to her, was he lost a leg in which even with Richards tech he was not able to be back to his old fighting standards, found a job where he was able to help people without a mask. Any one would be a valid reason for quitting, and certainly all those factors together should not be big problem for a reader.

2. The personality (or lack thereof) he is written with

He was always different in and out of the mask. He was a straight laced little dweeb in High School, so you know what...that IS his character. He is that dork many of us are but is able to be a free wheeling jokester when he puts on the mask.

3. The cold, loveless way that his marriage is portrayed

We did this already. He JUST had another kid. After 16+ years of marriage they have another kid and you call that cold and loveless?

4. How terrible he seems as a father; the Peter Parker I know is a guy that May could look up to.

Somehow I think Spider-Girl #81 was one of those issues you didn't read.

[jwd]

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself here.

I don't have a problem with him retiring; I mean really, if he was still Spider-Man, it would kind of horn in on Spider-Girl's job, eh? My problem is with:

1. The manner of his retirement
2. The personality (or lack thereof) he is written with
3. The cold, loveless way that his marriage is portrayed
4. How terrible he seems as a father; the Peter Parker I know is a guy that May could look up to.


1. Would you prefer he just quit? He's done that before. Stopping the Green Goblin and losing a leg in the process is a good reason to quit. Also to take care of his family.

2. Remember this books focus is May. The book isn't about Peter. He's given the role of a parent as seen through the eyes of a teenager.

3. Again - The book is about May. I'm sure she'd *love* it if her parents made out while she was around. Just imagine they're doing enough to make most people blush when May is out with friends and Ben is asleep in bed.

4. Terrible as a father? Just curious - Do you have any kids? To me Peter's potrayal as a father is one of the best I've seen in comics. May has made no indication she doesn't respect and love him. She just doesn't always obey him but that's pretty much the norm with any parent/teenager relationship.

[becominAfanAgain]

1. Would you prefer he just quit? He's done that before. Stopping the Green Goblin and losing a leg in the process is a good reason to quit. Also to take care of his family.

2. Remember this books focus is May. The book isn't about Peter. He's given the role of a parent as seen through the eyes of a teenager.

3. Again - The book is about May. I'm sure she'd *love* it if her parents made out while she was around. Just imagine they're doing enough to make most people blush when May is out with friends and Ben is asleep in bed.

4. Terrible as a father? Just curious - Do you have any kids? To me Peter's potrayal as a father is one of the best I've seen in comics. May has made no indication she doesn't respect and love him. She just doesn't always obey him but that's pretty much the norm with any parent/teenager relationship.


You hit the nail right on the head that is exactly how I feel and what I was going to say to El Santo.