Legion of Superheroes Request

[JoshuaB]

Can anyone recommend me some Legion issues (separate issues, arcs, runs, etc..) that would be a good read...I'm getting the Great Darkness Saga as soon as I can here, really excited to read it. Can anyone recommend any others? Really like to get into this series (even if it's in older volumes).

[Ontir]

Earthwar by Levitz, Sherman, and Staton from the 70's.

See if you can find the Digests from the 80's. There are some great stories re-printed there.

Legion of the Damned and Legion Lost were great DnA and Olivier Coipel runs.

Anything Legion with the name Kieth Giffen attached to it!

The Steve Lightle issues are great too.

[marshal99]

Following on from the great darkness saga , there's somewhat of a sequel to that story in the more recent Legion 25-29 featuring the resurrection of Darkseid and a timelost Conner Kent in legion which i believe is collected in the "Legion Foundations" TPB.
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/47784642877.30.P3.GIF

[Killer Frost]

Here are all the trades

Pre-Crisis Legion
THE GREAT DARKNESS SAGA

Post-Zero Hour Legion
BEGINNING OF TOMORROW
FOUNDATIONS

Current series
TEENAGE REVOLUTION
DEATH OF A DREAM
STRANGE VISITOR FROM ANOTHER CENTURY (available next week)

[Killer Frost]

Not in trade but worth hunting down.

EARTHWAR (1978. Superboy & LoSH #241-245)
LSV WAR (1984. LoSH volume 3, #1-5)
LEGION LOST (2000/2001. 12-issue maxi-series + LEGION WORLDS 6-issue mini)

The post-Crisis period, 1986-1994, does nothing for me and I personally can't recommend it.

[Paul Newell]

You can also read the first 15 years or so of the Legion in the Legion Archives 1-12 if you wish. Lots of Silver Age goodness from, amongst others, Jerry Seigel, Jim Shooter, Curt Swan, Jim Mooney, Carey Bates, Dave Cockrum and Mike Grell. :)

As to stuff not in trade, I'd also recommend the first 13 issues of Legion of Super-Heroes v4 1-13.

[kenaustin]

All the above are great picks, and I'll be re-recommending them. Definitely "Great Darkness Saga", "Legion of the Damned (LSH #122-124, Legionnaires #79-80) & Legion Lost", "The LSV War" (LSH Baxter #1-5), "The Universo Project" (LSH Baxter #32-35), "The Death of Superboy" (LSH Baxter #37-38), Superboy's Legion #1-2 (Elseworlds), for comedy The Legion of Subtitute Heroes Special & DC Comics Presents #59, Levitz & Giffen's Bwah-ha-ha in the 31st century.

Keith Giffen (writing & pre-loosening up penciling) was great on the legion. Second term Paul Levitz writing was even better. Paul Levitz writing, (Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle, Greg Larocque, take your pick!) penciling, ... that was heaven. I liked Abnett & Laning's "Legion" series over-all, although I thought they dropped the ball on their "Great Darkness" follow up.

Good luck, and welcome to the ranks! :)

[Matthew E]

There's little to add to all of the above, but I'd like to put in a word for Legion of Super-Heroes v2 Annual #1 (from about '80, '81). It's a great introduction to the team, and if you can you should read it *before* the Great Darkness Saga.

[Calybos]

The LSV War was one of their best storylines, in my opinion, but to my knowledge it hasn't been released as a trade.

[Ontir]

Yeah, the Legion of Super-Villains war from the 1st 5 issues of the baxter series WAS quite good! There were major events which unfolded in that story, and the Legion didn't emerge un-scarred from it. Maybe I'm old and jaded; but I just don't buy "an invasion of evil soul-munching aliens devour the Earth and the Legionnaires - all of them - are just fine."

That was my ONE complaint about Legion of the Damned. At least Karate Kid and Livewire should've been dead at the end of that arc!

[the4thpip]

http://www.golden-age-collectibles.com/Images/Category_15/subcat_1029/Thumbs/2406%20010.jpg

DC Limited Collectors Edition C-55 with the wedding of Garth and Imra.

[Ontir]

Interesting, in all the re-boots, this story never gets mentioned.

It's also noteable for being the first appearance of Rond Vidar's time platform, and Starboy's V-Neck.

[Matt Algren]

Yeah, the Legion of Super-Villains war from the 1st 5 issues of the baxter series WAS quite good! There were major events which unfolded in that story, and the Legion didn't emerge un-scarred from it. Maybe I'm old and jaded; but I just don't buy "an invasion of evil soul-munching aliens devour the Earth and the Legionnaires - all of them - are just fine."

That was my ONE complaint about Legion of the Damned. At least Karate Kid and Livewire should've been dead at the end of that arc!
Yeah, but it was a four issue arc as a tryout for DnA, and they weren't completely unscarred. Remember that the affects of UBoy, KidQ, and Umbra being blighted were examined in Legion Lost.

As to the original question, I recently read from right before Legion of the Damned (beginning in Legionnaires #78, LoSH#122) through the end of both series (Legionnaires #81, Legion #125), Legion Lost, Legion Worlds, then the new Legion series through issue 18 (Sensor's change). A great read that really holds up.

[FanboyStranger]

I'm not too great with keeping up with which volume of Legion is which, but I'd recommend issues 1-14 of the five-year gap/Giffen-Bierbaum Legion of Superheroes. The series was still good after that, but the ever densening plot (and revolving artists) eventually led to the reboot.

[Matthew E]

That was LSH v4. And I was okay with it right up until the Terra Mosaic story ended, in about issue #38. After that: the deluge.

[Matt Algren]

That was LSH v4. And I was okay with it right up until the Terra Mosaic story ended, in about issue #38. After that: the deluge.
I actually liked the Stuart Immonen issues. Looking back, you can tell they had completely free reign because Zero Hour was coming, and that allowed them to do stories that had a more visible impact on the team.

[Ontir]

Stuart Immonen was the ONLY good thing about his tenure. The stories went in circles, clearly because no one gave a damn, knowing they were about to throw it all away. Such a sad, sad, time.

[Matt Algren]

Stuart Immonen was the ONLY good thing about his tenure. The stories went in circles, clearly because no one gave a damn, knowing they were about to throw it all away. Such a sad, sad, time.Well, they did turn the book over to the colorist, after all . . .

And it was much worse in Legionnaires. I forget the name of the penciller, maybe something Gardener, but it was awful. Really, worse than the worst Liefeld.

[JoshuaB]

It's amazing how many closet Legion fans there are out there....I'm gonna pick up Great Darkness Saga and Legion of the Damned next time I can get to a con and find some back issues...I've always wanted to read Legion Lost and Worlds, but I can never find a complete set, but I'm still looking...

It's funny, I've picked up random issues of Legion before and it seemed like what was an amazing premise with such a rich history and cast of characters to pick from, but it just always seemed to be lacking something, I don't know what yet. I've picked up the first year or so of issues of Legionnaire and that was freaking cool stuff...really liked it...not great for re-readability, but it was still neat.

[JoshuaB]

The other thing that's hard, and I know probably everybody agrees (although feel free to correct me), is that as soon as you read a run of Legion, and really fall in love with the characters and get used to them, boom there comes a Crisis, or a Zero Hour, or another Crisis, and everything is wiped clean...the characters are different, relationships, powers, everything....it seems that these great stories like Great Darkness Saga and the like were just that..great stories..but they have no impact on today's legion whatsoever....

And I don't really see a way to reconcile everything without saying that all the different Legions were of different worlds...(didn't Waid say that the Legion Lost characters were really Earth-2 Legion in an interview not too long ago?)

[Matthew E]

I don't know if you've tried the current series (your sig suggests you aren't reading it *now*), but it's worth a look too. It's a little slow-moving and Kitson has missed a few issues, but the premise behind the book is quite solid and the characterization is better than it has ever been.

[Zero Hunter]

A couple of my personal favorites:

Superboy/Legion 250-251 - The Omega story

Legion of Super Heroes 69-72 & Legionaires 24-28 and Annual 2 - The White Triangle Saga

Legion of Super Heroes (Baxter series)
1-5 - Legion of Super Villians War
13 - Timber Wolf solo story
17-26 - Sensor Girl storyline
32-35 - Universo Project
37-38, Superman 8, Action Comics 591 - Death of Superboy

Legion Of Super Heroes (Giffen Run) 1-38

Legion of the Damned/Legion Lost/Legion 1-18

L.E.G.I.O.N. - 1-24 Annual 1. (Really I would say pick up the whole run)

[Zero Hunter]

I don't know if you've tried the current series (your sig suggests you aren't reading it *now*), but it's worth a look too. It's a little slow-moving and Kitson has missed a few issues, but the premise behind the book is quite solid and the characterization is better than it has ever been.

No it really isn't. The characteraztion is so off on most of the characters it just hurts to read most of the time. Waid has spent more time on all the periheral characters than he has on all but a few of the main ones. The book is Boring.

You are better off readidng the older stuff than the current book.

[mswood]

I forgot about the universo and Sensor Girl stories, those aren't bad

I wish I had saved mine but I personally liked the Omega two parter eiterh 250-251 or 249-250 (can never remember).

I also liked a lot of stuff around the earth khund war. And a few years before as well.

I wish those issues were easier to find.

[FanboyStranger]

L.E.G.I.O.N. - 1-24 Annual 1. (Really I would say pick up the whole run)

It was a great book altogther, but I'd vote for 30-40 with the new recruits, Maxmillion G'odd, and the Ice Man. That was when Kitson returned after a short hiatus and kicked it up to a higher level.

[spoon_jenkins]

I'm another fan who likes the Legion of Super-Villains War from issues 1-5 of LSH volume 3 in 1984. In fact, I really like the first 30 or so issues of vol. 3.

The issues of The Legion (the 2001 series) drawn by Olivier Coipel and Chris Batista, but the fill-in artists were often pretty weak.

[Killer Frost]

The other thing that's hard, and I know probably everybody agrees (although feel free to correct me), is that as soon as you read a run of Legion, and really fall in love with the characters and get used to them, boom there comes a Crisis, or a Zero Hour, or another Crisis, and everything is wiped clean...the characters are different, relationships, powers, everything.... Not everything changes. The Legionnaires personalities, powers and backstories have been tweaked over the years, but no more than any other characters in the DC Universe. Most of them are still recognizable as modernized versions of the same beloved characters first created in the Silver Age. The futuristic society they live in is very different than it was decades ago, as are their attitudes towards it, but that's only to be expected. It's not the Kennedy administration anymore.

And I don't really see a way to reconcile everything without saying that all the different Legions were of different worlds...(didn't Waid say that the Legion Lost characters were really Earth-2 Legion in an interview not too long ago?) The post-Zero Hour Legion was from Earth-247, as revealed in Infinite Crisis. Earth-2 never had a Legion in its future. The current incarnation is the Legion of the recently formed New Earth. As for the earlier versions, we all reconcile them differently. In my opinion, the original Legion came to an end in 1985 and the original characters ceased to exist when their Earth-One Superboy was erased from history, but others will disagree.

I, too, suggest you read the current series if you aren't already doing so. I personally find it quite enjoyable and very reminisant of the Silver Age LoSH. The best way to find out is to read it and judge for yourself.

[Paul Newell]

No it really isn't. The characteraztion is so off on most of the characters it just hurts to read most of the time. Waid has spent more time on all the periheral characters than he has on all but a few of the main ones. The book is Boring.

You are better off readidng the older stuff than the current book.
They're completely new versions of the characters, so how could the characterisation be off? This is this version's characterisation, not the same character in an updated costume.

[Ontir]

The Xanthu issue of Legion Worlds is one of the best Legion issues ever, IMHO. The intensity of the story, and the beginning introductions of concepts that would continue through DnA's run, and should have fueled the book for the next 20 years, really began to show in that story.

[Samurai]

A couple of my personal favorites:

Superboy/Legion 250-251 - The Omega story

Legion of Super Heroes 69-72 & Legionaires 24-28 and Annual 2 - The White Triangle Saga

Legion of Super Heroes (Baxter series)
1-5 - Legion of Super Villians War
13 - Timber Wolf solo story
17-26 - Sensor Girl storyline
32-35 - Universo Project
37-38, Superman 8, Action Comics 591 - Death of Superboy

Legion Of Super Heroes (Giffen Run) 1-38

Legion of the Damned/Legion Lost/Legion 1-18

L.E.G.I.O.N. - 1-24 Annual 1. (Really I would say pick up the whole run)
That Omega story was the first Legion books I ever read, and I still remember it fondly. One by one or in small groups the Legion tried to stop a creature called Omega, and every one of them failed, until the shocking ending...

And I'll second those who said The Great Darkness Saga. While Omega was a cool little story that got me to pick up a few more random issues of Legion over the years, whenever the cover or storyline grabbed me, GDS hooked me and made me a full-time collector, and a big enough fan to set out to get every single issue of the Legion from the time it changed from Superboy to the end of the series! I finally completed the set a few years ago (For the longest time I was only missing 1 book, one of the 100 page issues). After you read GDS, you'll probably never look at Darkseid the same way again...

[Matt Algren]

The Xanthu issue of Legion Worlds is one of the best Legion issues ever, IMHO. The intensity of the story, and the beginning introductions of concepts that would continue through DnA's run, and should have fueled the book for the next 20 years, really began to show in that story.What I really loved was the all-too short follow up they did later on in (I think) #18, when they restored life to Xanthu with the Terrorforms. Great emotional scene with Star Boy and XS.

God, I miss that book.

[Zero Hunter]

They're completely new versions of the characters, so how could the characterisation be off? This is this version's characterisation, not the same character in an updated costume.

He said the characteraztion is better than it has ever been and I called Bull on that. Waid hasn't fleshed out hardly any of the new verisons of his characters beyond a little surface stuff, and to me that does not equell good characteraztion. And beside if he is redoing old characters with that much history then they are automatically going to be compared to the old versions no matter what.

To me that has been the biggest faling of the Waidboot. He is too busy trying to beat you over the head with his lofty morality tale that he ignores the basics of good writing, and that is making you care about the characters.

[Matthew E]

I did say that, and I meant it.

It's true that there are some Legionnaires who haven't had a whole lot of screen time yet, and haven't been fleshed out in that much detail. But after fewer than two dozen comics, we've already got a pretty clear picture of almost two dozen characters. And some of them (Cosmic Boy, Chameleon Boy, Invisible Kid, Dream Girl, Brainiac 5, Triplicate Girl) have been portrayed with such creativity and subtlety that I occasionally have to sit back and buy a vowel. There's a *lot* more than 'surface stuff' going on.

Don't be distracted by the kids-versus-grownups stuff. That's not what the comic is about; it's just background. It's good background, mind you, interesting and sensible, but still just details of the setting.

I'm not trying to tell you you should like the comic. If you don't, you don't. But I think you're focusing on the wrong aspect to criticize.

[mswood]

For myself after teh Universo storyline I don't think the Legion was ever teh same.

While I liked some of Giffens future stories (I hated the artwork), and I have liked some of the various otehr individual stories.

But to me the Legions been dead a very long time now. And I haven't found anything that has really matched it since.

So give me Legion from about 210-to 20's of the baxter series and leave me there.

[Ontir]

The thing is, Cosmic Boy is STILL Cosmic Boy. If you're going to write him, you can play with the edges of the character; but you don't fundamentally alter him. He's never been an asshole before, and he ought not to be now. Further, when there's a character who should be, it helps that character, if he or she is the one, or few for whom that description applies. In this Legion, it's a word that can pretty accurately be applied to almost all of them.

For this degree of revisionism, Waid should have just created his own proprietary answer to the Legion, and done that as he did Hunter/Killer, or as he and Kitson did Empire.

Of the many things this messy slog of a book is, LEGION isn't one of them.

[JoshuaB]

Did I hear somewhere that the writer is leaving soon, though?

[Sir Tim Drake]

Did I hear somewhere that the writer is leaving soon, though?

I don't believe so. He said he has the first three years of stories planned, but he hasn't said that he'll be leaving the series after three years.

[Paul Newell]

He said the characteraztion is better than it has ever been and I called Bull on that. Waid hasn't fleshed out hardly any of the new verisons of his characters beyond a little surface stuff, and to me that does not equell good characteraztion. And beside if he is redoing old characters with that much history then they are automatically going to be compared to the old versions no matter what.
But you aren't comparing the new versions to the old...You are assuming they should be written the same as previous writers have written them when you make a statement about the characterisation being "off". You're saying you want consistency, not comparing.

[Paul Newell]

The thing is, Cosmic Boy is STILL Cosmic Boy. If you're going to write him, you can play with the edges of the character; but you don't fundamentally alter him. He's never been an asshole before, and he ought not to be now.
Why not? Most other Legion writers have done exactly that to the characters previously. A lot of the Levitz Legionnaires had completely different personalities than they did under previous writers. A lot of the Giffen/Bierbaum Legionnaires had completely different personalities again....As did the Post Boot...As did the DnA Legion...

And Cos was a real asshole a various times....He was a real asshole for many of the Silver Age stories.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Why not? Most other Legion writers have done exactly that to the characters previously. A lot of the Levitz Legionnaires had completely different personalities than they did under previous writers. A lot of the Giffen/Bierbaum Legionnaires had completely different personalities again....As did the Post Boot...As did the DnA Legion...

And Cos was a real asshole a various times....He was a real asshole for many of the Silver Age stories.

And not just in the Silver Age stories... in one early '70s story, he refuses to join in a fight for religious reasons, and when Ayla calls him a coward, he slaps her!

[Zero Hunter]

But you aren't comparing the new versions to the old...You are assuming they should be written the same as previous writers have written them when you make a statement about the characterisation being "off". You're saying you want consistency, not comparing.

That just it though. How can you not compare them? They have the same name. They live in the same time. They are in the same book. There is no way that anyone who has been reading the Legion for a while can not in the back of their mind compare the two.

I think if Waid was writing a better book than the differences would not stick out so much, but he isn't. This is the weakest version of the Legion since the middle of the reboot era. The book is just boring as hell so the flaws are even more pronouced. I thought he was getting it together with the Supergirl storyline, but that has really gone nowhere for the last 3 issue or so. It is just more stupid filler. If he would actully get to something instead of pilling subplot on top of subplot on top of subplot. Yeah maybe he does have a grand scheme plan in mind, but if he bores everyone to death with his senceless filler before he gets there than he is really not acomplishing anything.

And Matthew E what else is there to this book? Really. The first storyline was over a year long and it really was about as memorbale as a newspaper you read last week. I mean really can you name one name of a member of Terra Firma? Waid constanly beats you over the head with the young/old thing. I mean they brought in Supergirl because they saw the book was tanking because most people who were fans of the book got bored with Waids preachathon very quickly, and the numbers still are not that great. For a book with such a high profile creative team and such a big push for the new title to still not be going anywhere but down says something.

[Matthew E]

And Matthew E what else is there to this book?

Strengths of the current SLOSH title:

1. Kitson's art, once his hand recovers (next issue, I think)
2. The most intelligent conception yet of how there can be a team of superteenagers in the future, and why they're as prominent as they are
3. The most intelligent conception yet of what a team of future superteenagers from different worlds might actually be like
4. (As I said before) the deftest, most nuanced and most deeply thought out characterizations the Legionnaires have ever received

I admit there are weaknesses. The villains haven't been a particularly exciting lot, except probably Elysion. The stories are a bit light on action. The pace is slow, and Waid's being a bit coy about where exactly all this is going. And the generational aspects of the setting (though I like them and think they make all kinds of sense) aren't for everyone.

But that's a far cry from saying that it's 'not the Legion' or that it's a bad comic book. I'm as much a Legion fan as anybody and I say it is the Legion and it is good, so where does that leave us?

[Ontir]

I'll give you Barry's art.

There's nothing really THAT different in the team's conception - aside from them being thugs and assholes - from any previous version. They weren't automatically deputized originally, there was a story that told how that happened, and they were often at odds, with the authorities.

The third I completely disagree with! Waid's half-baked "Wild in the Streets" Legion just doesn't work. It could; but he's nowhere near pulling it off.

Brainy's an ass; but it works. Dreamgirl and Triplicate Girl are interesting; but "nuance?" For the most part, it's a comparison between pale white, and pale pale white. They're all arrogant, they're nearly all thugs, there's very little that's actually heroic about them, and certainly nothing idealistic. I think they're actually rather cynical. I've asked before, where are the Thomas Jefferson, the Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Payne, Frederick Douglas, and Elizabeth Cady Stantons of the group? They are, from what we've been show, based upon the idea of Silver Age Super-Heroes, so where does that translate to their perspectives and actions? I get that they're all incredibly alien to each other, and that's fine; but there should be some unifying point in their ideals. I've never seen anything past lip-service, to suggest that they've any concept of that.

The villains, at least up through the last issue I bought, #19, were piss-poor. One looked like she's probably a re-working of Beauty Blaze, what was her name? I have to ask, because it hasn't yet occurred to Waid to bother identifying the characters. Sure, we get a whole page to identify model-sheet shots of the Legionnaires; but as to the people they're dealing with, you have to hunt back 4 or 5 issues to see who's talking in the latest issue. "Terror Firma?" What, beyond a bad attempt at a pun is that? Why do they call themselves that? Why are they banded together, and why the sudden change of heart? Elysion was devoted to Lemnos, that much we know; but not the why. For that matter, what leads Brainy to the assumption that Lemnos can reverse death? If he can, than perhaps he has some way to, I don't know, re-boot the brains of Colu, or bring back the entire planet of Orando?

And none of that begins to discuss the book's complete lack of a pulse.

I don't recall the story where Cos slaps Ayla; but the bulk of my collection is still back east, so I can't look it up at the moment.

[Matthew E]

There are several points in your post I could dispute, but most of them can be dismissed as no more, or not much more, than 'difference of opinion'. But I do have a problem with this one:
them being thugs and assholes[...]They're all arrogant, they're nearly all thugs, there's very little that's actually heroic about them, and certainly nothing idealistic.

I've seen this complaint before. I didn't really understand it then and I don't understand it now. How are they thugs? What have they done that's thuglike? Okay, Ultra Boy is kind of a thug, but that's consistent with the earlier versions of the character, so there's no point in starting to complain about it *now*. They've been acting heroically and idealistically right from the first issue of the series, so I don't see how you can say that they haven't.

As far as whether they're 'arrogant' or 'assholes', well... they're teenagers. They think they know everything they need to know. It's inevitable. All teenagers (I imagine some teenagers are reading this, and I hope they can recognize the truth in this and take no offense), even the best of them, are, in their worst moments, 'assholes'. Why should the Legion be any exception? That's an important source of story--growing up! So, yeah, they have their obnoxious moments, but for the most part they're good kids, same as they've always been.

[Ontir]

Once again, being teens doesn't give them any greater ability to be asses than any other age group, and in general, when you see teens who are civic-minded, in volunteer organizations, they don't steal helmets from police, beat up police, chase other citizens, and berate them, all of which the Legion does on a regular basis. There's nothing deeper than the paper the issues are printed on, to these characters. They have no ethos, except some ill-defined objective, which generally leads to irresponsible, and threatening behaviour, which is in direct contrast, if not open conflict, to the examples in the comic books they allegedly look to for inspiration.

[Matthew E]

Once again, being teens doesn't give them any greater ability to be asses than any other age group

No, just a greater tendency.

and in general, when you see teens who are civic-minded, in volunteer organizations, they don't steal helmets from police

Youthful high spirits. Hey, Bertie Wooster steals policemen's helmets, and nobody calls him a thug.

beat up police

That's only a valid criticism if the Legion picked the fight, and I don't recall such a case.

chase other citizens, and berate them

Not sure what you're talking about here. But, yes, they're trying to stir things up. That's one of their goals--to shake up the status quo.

There's nothing deeper than the paper the issues are printed on, to these characters.

Doesn't matter how many times you say that, you can't make it come true. I've got an entire blog that's more or less dedicated to exploring the depths of this comic book, and I know you've read at least some of it. So what about all that stuff I'm writing about? Does it just not count? Am I making it up?

They have no ethos, except some ill-defined objective which generally leads to irresponsible, and threatening behaviour, which is in direct contrast, if not open conflict, to the examples in the comic books they allegedly look to for inspiration.

It is ill-defined, isn't it? That, to me, is another important source of story. It's equally true that they don't really know that much about how to be superheroes. What would you expect? The only manuals they have apply to a society that hasn't existed for a thousand years. I'm really looking forward to seeing how that continues to play out.

I wonder if the guy who started this thread looking for advice is getting anything out of our discussion.

[Ontir]

I can't address your blog, as I've no idea where it is, and I'm not really that interested, if it's more of what you've written here. I think I've got your view already.

Your point about their "manuals" being out of date, is the first, and only explanation of their bad behaviour that makes any sense; but there's no reason to believe that's occurred to Waid. Thus far, there's no evidence.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I can't address your blog, as I've no idea where it is, and I'm not really that interested, if it's more of what you've written here. I think I've got your view already.

It's the link in his signature. I highly recommend reading it-- Matthew presents some very sharp analyses of the WaK Legion, and points out numerous things that wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise.

[Ontir]

I've never been averse to learning something, Tim, thanks for adding the insult. As I said, I don't agree with his assessment, and it's not some knee-jerk reaction, I've given it some consideration, and really gave this book a good shot, before coming to the conclusion that it just wasn't very good. I stand by that.

[Paul Newell]

Settle down, guys.

[Matt Algren]

It's the link in his signature. I highly recommend reading it-- Matthew presents some very sharp analyses of the WaK Legion, and points out numerous things that wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise.I've read some of Matthew's blog, and while it's clear that he's put a lot of time, thought, and effort into it, I just don't agree with him. I think he gives Waid, some of whose work I've enjoyed (some fanatically so), way too much credit. Waid's Legion is a bunch of self-absorbed brats whose parents should have spanked them more. That's as deep as it gets.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I apologize for the insulting line and I've edited it out of my post.

[Matthew E]

I can't address your blog, as I've no idea where it is, and I'm not really that interested, if it's more of what you've written here. I think I've got your view already.

I know you've read at least some of my blog because I remember you from this (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3685181&postcount=5).

I just don't agree with him. I think he gives Waid, some of whose work I've enjoyed (some fanatically so), way too much credit. Waid's Legion is a bunch of self-absorbed brats whose parents should have spanked them more. That's as deep as it gets.

I would never try to tell either of you guys that you should like this comic. You've tried it, you've given it a fair chance and you don't like it. That's perfectly fair; it's exactly the way this is supposed to work. I'll keep reading SLOSH and you read what you want and everybody's happy.

My only problem, and the thing that keeps me in this discussion, is that you're denying the comic book qualities that it possesses. I know it has those qualities because I've written a stack of blog posts about them, and how could I do that if they didn't exist? My imagination isn't that good. (Edited to clarify: what I mean is that this Legion comic is operating on certain levels of story and characterization. If you had said that the comic was doing a bad job with its subtext and hidden characterization and so on, I wouldn't argue; what I'm arguing about is that you seem to be saying that it's not doing anything at all on those levels.)

Also I don't want to see a Legion comic cancelled again--if it keeps happening, DC might stop restarting it, and then where would we be? I want it to succeed (which includes wanting it to be better than it is now), and that means I will, where possible, challenge what I see as inaccurate statements about it. I won't dispute a bad review, but I honestly think you're getting some facts wrong here.

Maybe I'm not doing any good, but I'm not wasting my time; it's always a pleasure to talk about comic books with people.

[Killer Frost]

Aside from the rumble they had at HQ about a year ago, where not one person was really hurt, I challenge any reader to come up with a single credible instance where any of the following Legionnaires has behaved like a thug or an asshole.

Dream Girl, Colossal Boy, Element Lad (weird and occasionally annoying only), Lightning Lad, Phantom Girl, Saturn Girl, Star Boy, Supergirl, Timber Wolf

These next members have had a few mildly mischevious, bitchy or bad-tempered moments, but calling them "thugs and assholes" is a GROSS exaggeration

Chameleon, Karate Kid, Light Lass, Princess Projectra, Triplicate Girl, Sun Boy

That leaves the Legion with three certifiable "assholes" ....

Brainiac 5 (TBD if he's permanently changed his ways), Cosmic Boy, Invisible Kid

... and three "thugs"

Atom Girl (for punching Gim's gay brother), Shadow Lass and Ultra Boy.

Describing the entire team in terms of the behavior of 1/3 of its members is, to put it kindly, incredibly specious reasoning.

[Matthew E]

And even that is stretching things a bit. I don't think Atom Girl's a thug for punching Gim's brother. Yes, she overreacted, but I suspect that his magic-fairies comment touched the one raw spot she has.

My thoughts about Invisible Kid are more complex (http://legionabstract.blogspot.com/2006/10/legionnaires-invisible-kid.html).

Brainiac 5 will always be arrogant. Sure, right now he's a total jerk (or almost total; a couple of his conversations with Dream Girl reveal that he's got some more going on inside too), and that's got to change, just like it did for the reboot Brainy, but he'll always be arrogant.

Shadow Lass has attitude and may enjoy the physical side of her job a bit too much, but I wouldn't go so far as to call her a thug. She's about like Hawkgirl from the animated Justice League. (While we're on the subject: Barry Kitson has confirmed that she didn't steal that guy's goggles in #16, only borrowed them. (He intentionally drew her without them as she flew away.) So, obnoxious, but not larcenous.)

Ultra Boy is kind of a thug. At some point, though, he's going to have to get over that at least a little; wonder how that's going to be handled.

I don't know why everyone's always harshing on Cosmic Boy; I think he's great. Certainly he's the most mature Legionnaire. Okay, he's long-winded, but I'm the last guy who should criticize him for that.

[Killer Frost]

And even that is stretching things a bit. Deliberate hyperbole in order to characterize them in their worst possible light. Don't want to provide the opposition with any loopholes ;)

The "thug" Shadow Lass is currently my favorite Legionnaire. The "asshole" Brainiac 5 is probably my second favorite.

My thoughts about Invisible Kid are more complex.I'll be sure to read it when I get the chance. IK's an interesting "shades of gray" character, to say the least.

I don't know why everyone's always harshing on Cosmic Boy; I think he's great. Certainly he's the most mature Legionnaire. Okay, he's long-winded, but I'm the last guy who should criticize him for that.I'm not a Cosmic Boy fan myself but he's loads more interesting now than he's been in the last 15 or 20 years. Waid's version is a masterful updating and fleshing-out of the Cos of the 60s and 70s, the occasionally nasty, anal-retentive and paranoid sides of him as well as his strong, heroic side.

[Zero Hunter]

The "thug" Shadow Lass is currently my favorite Legionnaire. The "asshole" Brainiac 5 is probably my second favorite.

.

I can see why you like them. I liked them too when they were Larisa Mallor and Vril Dox in LEGION back in the 90's. They both are almost copies of the way those two acted. Hell Kinston even draws Bariniac 5 so he looks just like Dox right down to the buzz cut. It is easy to describe the team in a bad light since for the most part we have hardly seen much of the team besides the jerks in anything except cameos or filling space. We see a little of them here and there, but then Waid goes right back to his little core of favorites.

Like others have said like it or not its your choice. My choice is not to like it and quite buying it until they either reboot it again or get rid of Waid. I will keep telling people when they ask what I think about the Waidboot era, and how I personly think it is a very weak take. I honestly am to the point now where I really don't care if it is canceled or not. Maybe if they cancelled it and let it sit for a year or two they could come back with something much better.

[Killer Frost]

I can see why you like them. I liked them too when they were Larisa Mallor and Vril Dox in LEGION back in the 90's. .
Nope. Never read L.E.G.I.O.N. Never wanted to. I enjoy the Shadow Lass and Brainy for the pure and simple reasons they've got personality and are two of the most alien members of the team. I like the new, more alien incarnation of Chameleon nearly as much for exactly the same reasons.

I will keep telling people when they ask what I think about the Waidboot era, and how I personly think it is a very weak take. I honestly am to the point now where I really don't care if it is canceled or not. Maybe if they cancelled it and let it sit for a year or two they could come back with something much better.You might convince a few, but fortunately most people are wise enough to pick up a few issues and judge for themselves. But don't ever let anyone discourage you from speaking your mind. The more controversy and passionate disagreement LoSH generates, the more attention it will draw. The more attention it draws, the longer it's likely to run.

[Matthew E]

I liked them too when they were Larisa Mallor and Vril Dox in LEGION back in the 90's. They both are almost copies of the way those two acted. Hell Kinston even draws Bariniac 5 so he looks just like Dox right down to the buzz cut.

I never read L.E.G.I.O.N. but I keep thinking I should. I've heard some good things about it.

My choice is not to like it and quite buying it until they either reboot it again or get rid of Waid. I will keep telling people when they ask what I think about the Waidboot era, and how I personly think it is a very weak take. I honestly am to the point now where I really don't care if it is canceled or not. Maybe if they cancelled it and let it sit for a year or two they could come back with something much better.

Well, in the meantime, they might be coming out with a comic based on the animated series (although there's been no official word yet). Maybe you'll like that better. I certainly plan on checking it out. You know, if it ever exists.