Spider-Man and the Red Skull

[Ian Boothby]

Something that's always bothered me about Spider-Man. The Red Skull killed his parents. But that never gets brought up. Spider-Man never thinks to go after the guy when he's on the loose. He doesn't care the times he's faked his death. Just doesn't care.
Also Nick Fury in his dealings with Spider-Man never brings up that his folks were spies. Good ones. Never gets brought up.

[the4thpip]

Maybe it's because that annual (considering the quality of the regular Spidey books at the time) wasn't very good?

[Noah Johnson]

Something that's always bothered me about Spider-Man. The Red Skull killed his parents. But that never gets brought up.
A. Pete never knew his parents. Like, at all. Their deaths, like their lives, are kind of abstract for him.

B. So the Red Skull killed your parents. BFD. Get in line with a million other people. Boo hoo, two MORE corpses on the Skull's resumé. Throw' em on the stack. :)

[Lester C.]

There were a few novels that by Adam Troy Castro.:confused: These novels greatly expanded Spider Man's parents, their death and the real cause, but will ofcourse never be cannon. Still good reading though.

[Michael P]

Also, 'twas a fake Skull who's pretty much dead now.

[Gail Simone]

I didn't even KNOW the Red Skull killed his parents.

Man, that Red Skull is MEAN!

Gail

[Damo]

I didn't even KNOW the Red Skull killed his parents.

Man, that Red Skull is MEAN!

Gail

Ja ja. Ist dieses zutreffend.

Ich bin schlecht.

Wer lieben die Frau sprechen?

Sorry, I don't know how Skull got on my computer...

And it shouldn't be followed up on because it's a bad idea. Peter's parents spies? And killed by Captain America's arch enemy? Sigh.

[TCJohnson]

I didn't even KNOW the Red Skull killed his parents.

Man, that Red Skull is MEAN!

Gail


I bet if Red Skull posted here you would ban him! Lucky guy!


By the way, when was this revealed?

[PatrickG]

Weren't they superscientists in the Ultimate Universe?

I've only read through the arc before the Venom arc on Ultimate Spidey but I thought I heard something about Richard and Mary Parker inventing Venom or something.

*sigh*

'Course, the Ultimate Universe did change Reed Richard's dad from a guant morally ambiguous super genius cyborg with a goatee who fathered Kristoff Vernard into an overweight schlub who couldn't get past his son's intellect and liked Ben Grimm more.

[PatrickG]

I bet if Red Skull posted here you would ban him! Lucky guy!


By the way, when was this revealed?

Back in a 60s Spider-man annual.

But it was the Communist Red Skull, not the Nazi Red Skull.

[Charles RB]

Weren't they superscientists in the Ultimate Universe?

Richard Parker is, I don't think Mary was.

I heard something about Richard and Mary Parker inventing Venom or something.

Peter's dad and Eddie Brock's dad invented "The Suit" (the symbiote to you and me) originally as a cure for various diseases up to and including cancer; they turned to Trask Industries for cash, which - after it became pretty obvious how dangerous the thing was - decided to take over the project and gear it towards military applications. Richard & Eddie tried a lawsuit to get control of the project back, failed, and were involved in a dodgy plane crash that killed them.


'Course, the Ultimate Universe did change Reed Richard's dad from a guant morally ambiguous super genius cyborg with a goatee who fathered Kristoff Vernard into an overweight schlub who couldn't get past his son's intellect and liked Ben Grimm more.

I'm not too upset about that, really.

[PatrickG]

I'm not upset about that latter bit either, mind you.

Now... Doom with metal skin and goat legs... *sigh*

[Charles RB]

Now... Doom with metal skin and goat legs... *sigh*

Oh dear, those goat legs. :(

[ninjapeps]

Oh dear, those goat legs. :(
that seemed to disappear during the previous story arc (Frightful, I think) with no explanation.

[EdContradictory]

that seemed to disappear during the previous story arc (Frightful, I think) with no explanation.
The armor covered them, I think.

[the4thpip]

This one:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/77997099222.5.GIF

GCD lists it as Stan Lee (Script), Larry Lieber (Pencils), Mike Esposito (as Mickey Demeo) (Inks), Art Simek (Letters), but I bet it's actually Stan Lee (Plot), Larry Lieber (Breakdowns), Mike Esposito (as Mickey Demeo) (fionished art), Art Simek (Letters).
The story is included in Essential Spider-Man 4, which is in front of me right now. The credits are vague (Presented by Lee and Lieber, Embellished by Demeo). Both the art and the story are leagues behind everything else in that Essential collection.

[C.O. Jones]

I agree, Ian. I also had the same thoughts during Byrne's 'Namor' run about how he never went after and took down Llyra once and for all for killing Lady Dorma. (...or has he...?) :confused:

[Crowley]

also Peter Parker's parents came back as...
ROBOTS.

they were around for a year and then it turned out they were evil killer Robots that Norman Osborn had programmed to fuck with peter long after he had died.


as a thirteen year old I knew that this story sucked...

[Beacon]

also Peter Parker's parents came back as...
ROBOTS.

they were around for a year and then it turned out they were evil killer Robots that Norman Osborn had programmed to fuck with peter long after he had died.


as a thirteen year old I knew that this story sucked...

Harry Osborn. Norman hadn't been retconned into being an evil mastermind yet. He was just a dead crazy person who carried bombs in his man-purse.

[Ian Boothby]

I remember the robot story. Good for Norman, having the ability to build perfect robots of people and not using that skill ever again.

You know your story is in trouble when your big plot twist involves robots, magic or a time machine. I'll add the brank spanking new retcon punching to that list.

It was an odd plotline to have the Skull be the killer of Spider-Man's folks. Similar to having Captain Boomerang be the one who killed Robin's dad. Seems cool at the time but makes future storylines a bit messy unless you just ignore it.

[Lester C.]

I remember the robot story. Good for Norman, having the ability to build perfect robots of people and not using that skill ever again.

It was an odd plotline to have the Skull be the killer of Spider-Man's folks. Similar to having Captain Boomerang be the one who killed Robin's dad. Seems cool at the time but makes future storylines a bit messy unless you just ignore it.
Without ruining too much of the storyline it makes sense. The story was written during the cold war, and Peter parents had been spies, so it made perfect sense for the communist Red Skull to dispatch and discredit them.

[shrike]

God I forgot about his parents as spies.

How (as much as I hate this words).... retarded.

[Lester C.]

God I forgot about his parents as spies.

How (as much as I hate this words).... retarded.
If it makes you feel better it's a trivia question now, which is probably no longer in continuity. Like the fact that Flash Thompson undergone an extensive personality change because of his experience in Vietnam which would put Peter in his fifties or older.

[Crowley]

Harry Osborn. Norman hadn't been retconned into being an evil mastermind yet. He was just a dead crazy person who carried bombs in his man-purse.
are you sure? I recall it being Norman.

remeber because about a year later they ressurected him.

[Crowley]

I remember the robot story. Good for Norman, having the ability to build perfect robots of people and not using that skill ever again.

You know your story is in trouble when your big plot twist involves robots, magic or a time machine. I'll add the brank spanking new retcon punching to that list.

It was an odd plotline to have the Skull be the killer of Spider-Man's folks. Similar to having Captain Boomerang be the one who killed Robin's dad. Seems cool at the time but makes future storylines a bit messy unless you just ignore it.

I think it's like professional wrestling... after you've been hit in the head with a steel chair a few times your focus shifts pretty easily.

"I'm after the title Destroyer!"
"oh snap! Bruticus just stole my girlfriend! it's on!"
"who's Destroyer?"
"oh he wants to team up?"
"tag team ahoy!"

[Charles RB]

If it makes you feel better it's a trivia question now, which is probably no longer in continuity. Like the fact that Flash Thompson undergone an extensive personality change because of his experience in Vietnam

As far as I know, it's not out of continuity that Flash fought in a war overseas and was changed as a result, it's just we keep vague about what war it was. (I remember a columnist making the sad point that it's not really that hard to find a suitable war Flash could've gone overseas to fight in whatever year it is)

[Ian Boothby]

As far as I know, it's not out of continuity that Flash fought in a war overseas and was changed as a result, it's just we keep vague about what war it was. (I remember a columnist making the sad point that it's not really that hard to find a suitable war Flash could've gone overseas to fight in whatever year it is)

A bit trickier for him to bring back a Vietnamese girlfriend from the Middle East.

[Corrina]

Without ruining too much of the storyline it makes sense. The story was written during the cold war, and Peter parents had been spies, so it made perfect sense for the communist Red Skull to dispatch and discredit them.


But...the Red Skull isn't a communist! He's a Nazi. Well, hateful fascist. :)

[Beacon]

But...the Red Skull isn't a communist! He's a Nazi. Well, hateful fascist. :)

Commi RS and Nazi RS are different people.

[shrike]

But...the Red Skull isn't a communist! He's a Nazi. Well, hateful fascist. :)

That's odd, I coulda SWORE he was Republican.










I keed!

[Charles RB]

A bit trickier for him to bring back a Vietnamese girlfriend from the Middle East.

There's probably some way of ignoring bits of that.

[howyadoin]

There's probably some way of ignoring bits of that.She could bleach her hair and get eyelid surgery.

[Noah Johnson]

That's odd, I coulda SWORE he was Republican.

He was. Couple years back, he was SecDef under the name Dell Rusk.

This storyline was decried as prejudiced by the kind of people who can only get through the day by believing Hitler was left-wing.

[PatrickG]

In all fairness, Hitler being right wing and being an evil fascist are two distinct issues.

[Corrina]

Commi RS and Nazi RS are different people.

Oh. Well, that clears it all up then.

(Aside: I think it's kinda fun the current Red Skull is residing, well, in the skull of a former Red Army officer. I bet Brubaker did that on purpose. :)

[Ian Boothby]

Al-Qaeda RS, also a totally different guy.

[The Xenos]

You know your story is in trouble when your big plot twist involves robots, magic or a time machine.

See. This is why I keep telling people Runaways is a piece of crap and Brain K Vaughn is a hack writer. Guilty on three counts.

[Lester C.]

Stan Lee, along with the artists he worked with, were true giants and should be given much in the way of respect and love from the modern day comic fan. Still I wonder if they would have told their stories differently had they realized that all of their wonderful creations would be around close five decades later and still going strong. Little things like Mr. Fantastic and the Thing being World War Two veterans or Captain America being a product of the cold war are central to their characters but can’t be used to justify those characters as the time and placed they lived in at the time of their creation no longer exists.

[stealthwise]

See. This is why I keep telling people Runaways is a piece of crap and Brain K Vaughn is a hack writer. Guilty on three counts.

Except that he's playing with common superhero conventions and focusing more on the emotional consequences rather than anything else.

The story with time travel didn't focus on the technobabble or have the Runaways turn into a poor man's Exiles/Sliders, but rather focused on how hurt Chase was at the thought of losing Gert, and how Victor had to deal with his true nature. Vaughan doesn't rely on these tropes to tell his story, he uses them as conventional approaches to tell a story within a genre that's used to those kinds of things.

Time travel, robots and magic rarely work in Spider-Man because his title has always been much more grounded in "reality," and by that I mean an urban setting that deals with your common, every-day purse-snatching thugs and occasional spider-slayer. Things that are TOO far out there, like clones, magicians with all-knowing power, and, well, robotic clones, just don't fit with how the character's been traditionally portrayed.

[JKCarrier]

I remember the robot story. Good for Norman, having the ability to build perfect robots of people and not using that skill ever again.

He picked it up from Don Blake. :p

[Crowley]

he built a robot that replaced the REAL JMS with the the Robot Doppleganger who wrote that Awful Norman Gwen storyline.

[Ian Boothby]

Time travel, robots and magic rarely work in Spider-Man because his title has always been much more grounded in "reality," and by that I mean an urban setting that deals with your common, every-day purse-snatching thugs and occasional spider-slayer. Things that are TOO far out there, like clones, magicians with all-knowing power, and, well, robotic clones, just don't fit with how the character's been traditionally portrayed.

I agree. It's like Batman. You can have him hang with the JLA and go to outer space but in his own book he should be grounded and deal with things in a more down to earth way. You shouldn't have anything important to him be connected with other superheroes because his world should stand on its own. This is why having Robin's dad killed by Captain Boomerang is messy.

As for Spider-Man. If Peter Parker and Johnny Storm leave the same building in the New York and go for a walk, Peter's going to spot a mugger or an animal themed bad guy. Johnny is going to see an alien invasion or a tidal wave with Namor on top riding a whale. They live in the same city but different worlds. You can cross them over for fun but when you tie them too close together with something like Civil War it doesn't work.

[Charles RB]

This is why having Robin's dad killed by Captain Boomerang is messy.

Not that difficult to just say Robin's dad was killed by a supervillain and just not mention the specific name (Boomerang's dead, after all, he's not going to come back to fight Robin and need recapping).

[Damo]

Red Skull:Stille und essen sie Grundy!

[stealthwise]

I agree. It's like Batman. You can have him hang with the JLA and go to outer space but in his own book he should be grounded and deal with things in a more down to earth way. You shouldn't have anything important to him be connected with other superheroes because his world should stand on its own. This is why having Robin's dad killed by Captain Boomerang is messy.

As for Spider-Man. If Peter Parker and Johnny Storm leave the same building in the New York and go for a walk, Peter's going to spot a mugger or an animal themed bad guy. Johnny is going to see an alien invasion or a tidal wave with Namor on top riding a whale. They live in the same city but different worlds. You can cross them over for fun but when you tie them too close together with something like Civil War it doesn't work.

Even Batman is sticky. It's really hard to buy him as a member of the JLA fighting aliens, etc, unless, as you point out, it's done sparingly, and in a way that considers his strengths, rather than his limitations. I love that shortpacked strip, where is it...

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20050131a.gif

Anyways, I think that the Spider-Man limitation thing came up during... was it the Trial of Galactus or Secret Wars thing, when he and Daredevil basically sit around talking about how the cosmic threat they're facing is too big for street-level guys like them. The problem for big crossovers like those is that everyone wants the icons to be involved, hence Batman's role in Infinite Crisis and Spider-Man's in Civil War. If they want to bring Spidey into junk like this, then they should REALLY pander to the 80s and 90s fanboys and give him both his old alien costume AND the cosmic powers he had for about six months.

[TCJohnson]

Anyways, I think that the Spider-Man limitation thing came up during... was it the Trial of Galactus or Secret Wars thing, when he and Daredevil basically sit around talking about how the cosmic threat they're facing is too big for street-level guys like them.

There was a thing they did in a recent issue of Amazing Spider-Man...a news program was showing various archived footage of Spider-Man and his greatest battles. The newscaster said, "This is a scene from Spider-Man's first battle with Galactus." The next panel shows Galactus walking down the street (You can only see up to his knees) with Spider-Man hanging onto his ankle by his fingertips screaming, "Hey! Hey! HeyheyheyheyHEY!"

[the4thpip]

Commi RS and Nazi RS are different people.
Um... does anybody have a link to info about Commie RS?
I've been reading Marvel comics for almost 30 years (gah! I'm old!), and I've never heard of the commie version.

[Michael P]

Um... does anybody have a link to info about Commie RS?
I've been reading Marvel comics for almost 30 years (gah! I'm old!), and I've never heard of the commie version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Skull

"With Schmidt's disappearance after 1945, the reputation of the Skull still was formidable enough to prove useful. In 1953 a Communist agent named Albert Malik set up his spy/criminal organization in Algeria and assumed the identity of the Red Skull, pretending that he was the original, when he was actually serving Soviet interests. During the 1950s he faced the then active version of Captain America who was also using the identity of Steve Rogers, pretending to be the original. The two impersonators continued to battle each other throughout the decade. But while the Captain, referred to as Captain America IV in some sources, was placed into suspended animation when his flawed replicate of the Super Soldier treatment seriously affected his mind, Albert continued his activities, over time cutting his links to the Soviet Union. He was among other things responsible for the deaths of Richard Parker and Mary Fitzpatrick-Parker, the parents of Peter Parker (a.k.a. Spider-Man), tipped off by the super-criminal Gustav "The Gentleman" Fiers... When Johann reappeared, he and Albert, though his age was starting to catch up with him, started to antagonize each other while both claiming the identity of the Red Skull. Finally Albert was the victim of an assassination organized by Johann, at the hands of Scourge of the Underworld."

[the4thpip]

Ah, I found it in Wikipedia:

Post-World War II Era

With Schmidt's disappearance after 1945, the reputation of the Skull still was formidable enough to prove useful. In 1953 a Communist agent named Albert Malik set up his spy/criminal organization in Algeria and assumed the identity of the Red Skull, pretending that he was the original, when he was actually serving Soviet interests. During the 1950s he faced the then active version of Captain America who was also using the identity of Steve Rogers, pretending to be the original. The two impersonators continued to battle each other throughout the decade. But while the Captain, referred to as Captain America IV in some sources, was placed into suspended animation when his flawed replicate of the Super Soldier treatment seriously affected his mind, Albert continued his activities, over time cutting his links to the Soviet Union. He was among other things responsible for the deaths of Richard Parker and Mary Fitzpatrick-Parker, the parents of Peter Parker (a.k.a. Spider-Man), tipped off by the super-criminal Gustav "The Gentleman" Fiers.

So this was the Red Skull from the 1950s Captain America fights the Commies books that were later retconned to not have been the real Captain America at all.

They should have just left those out of Marvel continuity. Much as I love Roy Thomas, making every single Captain America Marvel ever published canon is just a nightmare.

[TCJohnson]

Here is more details: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Red_Skull_(Albert_Malik)

Actually, this is the best site: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rskul2.htm

[the4thpip]

By the way, there is nothing in that Spider-Man annual that would make it clear which Red Skull he is facing. There are no references to either Nazis or Commies, and Skull's origin or real name are not given. When was it "revealed" that it was the Commie RS and not the Nazi RS who killed the Parkers and faced Spider-Man in Algeria?

[TCJohnson]

I believe at the time that happened the commie red skull was the only one active.

[the4thpip]

Here is more details: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Red_Skull_(Albert_Malik)

Actually, this is the best site: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rskul2.htm
Thank you for those.

[Tommy]

(Aside: I think it's kinda fun the current Red Skull is residing, well, in the skull of a former Red Army officer. I bet Brubaker did that on purpose. :)
What I think is odd is that Red Skull would tolerate living in an inferior race.

[the4thpip]

And I see it was Steve Englehart, not Thomas, who gave us the multiple Caps and Skulls in continuity.

[the4thpip]

I believe at the time that happened the commie red skull was the only one active.
It was retconned to be the Commie Skull in Captain America 155 by Steve Englehart, according to your second link.

[Beacon]

Um... does anybody have a link to info about Commie RS?
I've been reading Marvel comics for almost 30 years (gah! I'm old!), and I've never heard of the commie version.

Basically the writers had written the Red Skull as a communist during some of the Cold War years because that was seen as the “evil” of the time in the same way that Nazi’s were standard villain of the second World War. Eventually the writers wrapped their heads around the idea that Nazis and communists were entirely different things and all the appearances where he’s a communist (such as the one where he killed Peter’s parents) were retconned into being a guy named Albert Malik. Johann Shmidt, the original Red Skull, eventually had him killed.

And I repeat that Norman had NOTHING to do with the robot parents. The Chameleon had them built at the suggestion of HARRY Osborn. As far as I know, the “robot parents” thing is one of the last Spider-Man stories where Norman WASN’T the evil mastermind. ;)

[Mr_Fox]

They should have just left those out of Marvel continuity. Much as I love Roy Thomas, making every single Captain America Marvel ever published canon is just a nightmare.

Methinks it was Steve Englehart who wrote those issues. Unless your point was that Roy as editor made Steve write that.

Lights pipe and pondes.

[Michael P]

Basically the writers had written the Red Skull as a communist during some of the Cold War years because that was seen as the “evil” of the time in the same way that Nazi’s were standard villain of the second World War. Eventually the writers wrapped their heads around the idea that Nazis and communists were entirely different things and all the appearances where he’s a communist (such as the one where he killed Peter’s parents) were retconned into being a guy named Albert Malik. Johann Shmidt, the original Red Skull, eventually had him killed.

And I repeat that Norman had NOTHING to do with the robot parents. The Chameleon had them built at the suggestion of HARRY Osborn. As far as I know, the “robot parents” thing is one of the last Spider-Man stories where Norman WASN’T the evil mastermind. ;)
One wonders why, as Harry was dying and apologizing to Peter for all the evil he'd done, he didn't mention this.

[the4thpip]

Methinks it was Steve Englehart who wrote those issues. Unless your point was that Roy as editor made Steve write that.

Lights pipe and pondes.
Roy at least wrote Captain America Annual 13, which was part of this whole retconning operation. But most of it was indeed done by Steve Englehart.

[stealthwise]

One wonders why, as Harry was dying and apologizing to Peter for all the evil he'd done, he didn't mention this.

Because the writers obviously hadn't thought that far ahead? I thought that Harry died months before Peter's new "parents" came into the picture.

[JKCarrier]

Methinks it was Steve Englehart who wrote those issues. Unless your point was that Roy as editor made Steve write that.

IIRC, Thomas came up with the idea of explaining those '50s Cap stories, but never got around to actually doing it while he was writing the series. When he became editor, he handed off the basic idea to Englehart, who ran with it and came up with that classic "Original Cap vs. '50s Cap" arc. But that still didn't quite cover all the stuff Thomas wanted to reconcile, so Thomas himself went on to write the WHAT IF issue that inserted two more Captain Americas into the mix.

Which kind of points out the difference between the two writers. Given the same general premise, Steve goes: "Oh boy! An excuse to talk about the racism, jingoism, and paranoia of the 1950s!". And Roy goes: "Oh boy! An excuse to fix continuity!". ;)

[Noah Johnson]

Which kind of points out the difference between the two writers. Given the same general premise, Steve goes: "Oh boy! An excuse to talk about the racism, jingoism, and paranoia of the 1950s!". And Roy goes: "Oh boy! An excuse to fix continuity!". ;)
Thank you for summing up so neatly why I like Englehart's work better than Thomas's. Writing comic books about comic books < Writing comic books about things that aren't comic books.