10/18 previews - Civil War: X-Men #4, Ms. Marvel #8

[chanzero]

PopCultureShock Previews updated with "last minute looks" at Civil War: X-Men #4 (http://www.popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=40456), Ms. Marvel #8 (http://www.popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=40453) and more books out tomorrow

EDIT: sorry if some of you tried some of those and they didn't work -- they should be ok now

[Blackcat]

CW: X-Men looks cool!

Seems Carol is loosing not only her patience, but also her balance, reasonability and Arana

[Magneto Rocks]

Well, CW: X-Men 4 is looking alright, if thoroughally UN-CWish as usual.

Ms Marvel is doing a fairly good job at presenting a balanced story considering rhe writer's admittedly anti-reg.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Nice, Ms Marvel lays down the law. I almost wish she wasn't getting so heated - she makes some good points. It hasn't been a bad treatment of CW so far, in terms of balance, so I hope whatsisname there in the restraints doesn't get to be too much of a suffering saint in chains.

[XPac]

Funny how mad Carol is at Julie... I thought Julia was most agreeable in their last encounter.

She asked Julie to pull over and Julie tried to pulled over (course, it also slammed Carol into a guard rale at 100 miles an hour, but it's not Julia's fault Carol was between the guard rail and Julia's car when she was asking her to pull over).

Carol does need to watch that temper... I already though Julia stole her thunder in Carol's own book in the last issue. That's never a good sign in your own book.

[Bobster777]

Nice, Ms Marvel lays down the law. I almost wish she wasn't getting so heated - she makes some good points. It hasn't been a bad treatment of CW so far, in terms of balance, so I hope whatsisname there in the restraints doesn't get to be too much of a suffering saint in chains.
Yeah, I agree. Let's finally get some good debate rather than just inspirational lingo from the anti side.

[Haunt]

Funny how mad Carol is at Julie... I thought Julia was most agreeable in their last encounter.

She asked Julie to pull over and Julie tried to pulled over (course, it also slammed Carol into a guard rale at 100 miles an hour, but it's not Julia's fault Carol was between the guard rail and Julia's car when she was asking her to pull over).

there's no polite way to ask someone if they are on crack so i'll just assume that you misinterpreted that entire fight. Julia rammed her with her car and kept on going. there was no attempt to pull over. :)

Carol does need to watch that temper... I already though Julia stole her thunder in Carol's own book in the last issue. That's never a good sign in your own book.

the villains always steal the thunder. they are there to liven things up.

[binaural]

does anyone know much about the ff the end? is it about the ff breaking up in cw?

[XPac]

there's no polite way to ask someone if they are on crack so i'll just assume that you misinterpreted that entire fight. Julia rammed her with her car and kept on going. there was no attempt to pull over. :)



the villains always steal the thunder. they are there to liven things up.

Julia was pulling over... she just didn't stop. The moral of the story is this... don't ask someone to pull over while you are directly between the car and the side of the road. That's almost the equivalent of saying: "Julia, if it's not too much trouble can you please hit me with the car?"

As for Julie being the villian... the way it's written I'll wager plenty of people (and you're clearly not one of them) walked away from that issue pulling for Julia. So it's not quite the same thing.

[Haunt]

Julia was pulling over... she just didn't stop. The moral of the story is this... don't ask someone to pull over while you are directly between the car and the side of the road. That's almost the equivalent of saying: "Julia, if it's not too much trouble can you please hit me with the car?"

that's felon-logic.

[XPac]

that's felon-logic.

No, I think it's good advince for felons and non-felons alike to not position themselves between a car and a guard rail when they're asking someone to pull over.

[Haunt]

No, I think it's good advince for felons and non-felons alike to not position themselves between a car and a guard rail when they're asking someone to pull over.


better advice would be to decelerate before pulling over, especially near a guard rail. Julia rammed her with her car. Carol, by rights, could have used lethal force.

[XPac]

better advice would be to decelerate before pulling over, especially near a guard rail.

Well, maybe Carol will be smart enough to mention that next time she's asking someone to pull over while positioning herself between the car and the side of the road.

Telling someone to pull over their car while positioning yourself so you'll get hit by the car almost seems like entrapment to me.

[Haunt]

Well, maybe Carol will be smart enough to mention that next time she's asking someone to pull over while positioning herself between the car and the side of the road.

Telling someone to pull over their car while positioning yourself so you'll get hit by the car almost seems like entrapment to me.


there is no entrapment defense for attempted murder.

[Cthulhudrew]

Adding spoilers, since my question pertains to events alluded to in the preview for Ms. Marvel, and this thread isn't marked spoilers. So if you haven't read the preview, and aren't planning to, don't read the spoilers!! (Of course, if you have no interest in the preview, you're probably in the wrong thread anyway...) :)

I just hope that Brian Reed remembers that the Doomsday Man has already turned up again in recent memory- specifically in Kurt's Avengers v.3.

[XPac]

there is no entrapment defense for attempted murder.

True... Julia really should have ignored Carol when she asked her to pull over while Carol was between the car and the guard rail. I guess that's the moral of the story in Civil War... sometimes you really shouldn't listen to someone just because they have the law on their side. Cause they might be idiots... like Carol was in this situation.

[Mothmonsterman]

I'm having a hard time deciding which one of you is joking and which one of you doesn't get the joke.

[Haunt]

I'm having a hard time deciding which one of you is joking and which one of you doesn't get the joke.

if facts are funny, then i must be the one joking. :)

True... Julia really should have ignored Carol when she asked her to pull over while Carol was between the car and the guard rail. I guess that's the moral of the story in Civil War... sometimes you really shouldn't listen to someone just because they have the law on their side. Cause they might be idiots... like Carol was in this situation.


the moral of the story is to not endanger your children by helping your fugitive boyfriend escape the U.S. in a stolen car.

[Mothmonsterman]

if facts are funny, then i must be the one joking. :)


I was leaning to you being the one not getting the joke.

[Haunt]

I was leaning to you being the one not getting the joke.

there was a joke? :confused:

[Nevets F]

Julia had every right.

Carol is causing me to not like her with these comments.

[Mothmonsterman]

Julia had every right.

You don't have the right to evade arrest and try to run somebody over with a car on the highway.

Ever.

[streator]

about civil war: x-men...

cyclops has blown through mountains before. is the entire premises enclosing the 198 supposed to be made of whatever the door ismade of? if not, just blow a hole in the mountain next and make an entrance somewhere.

[Nevets F]

You don't have the right to evade arrest and try to run somebody over with a car on the highway.

Ever.

Sure you do, when you live in comic book world and and the woman is flying and near invulnerable. Plus, is acting like a total facist. I would do the same. I would do more.

[XPac]

the moral of the story is to not endanger your children by helping your fugitive boyfriend escape the U.S. in a stolen car.

That's actually an interesting question... is Julia's daughter in danger? Will the PRO side threaten her daughter? I am curious to see how far they would go if we're talking about a young child.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Sure you do, when you live in comic book world and and the woman is flying and near invulnerable.
It's actually quite an interesting situation. I know my first reaction when Julia slammed Carol was "Jesus!" - if that happened in the real world, it'd be downright evil. But then when you consider the power levels involved, she basically did no more than shove Carol out of her way, which you wouldn't blink at if it happened in the real world, in a rebelling-against-wrongful-arrest kind of story.

Gives an insight into why people in the MU are afraid of superheroes - the disparity between them and regular humans is just so blatant.

[Mothmonsterman]

Sure you do, when you live in comic book world and and the woman is flying and near invulnerable.

Oh, were the people in the other cars on the highway all invulnerable, too?

Plus, is acting like a total facist.

You would be no more capable of successfully supporting that claim than the Civil War writers have been, and they've been pretty embarrassingly incapable of it.

I would do the same. I would do more.

And I would certianly hope that a force for justice would throw you in jail.

[XPac]

Gives an insight into why people in the MU are afraid of superheroes - the disparity between them and regular humans is just so blatant.

Course, I do wonder whether or not the public considers the registered heroes any less scary now that they're running around with Storm Troopers.

I guess it's a matter of how you look at it. A group of rogue heroes accountable to no one but themselves can potentially cause incidents like Stanform. An army of organized trained heroes directly under the control of the world's most powerful military organization could take over the world. To me that sounds a lot scarier. Because they're not less moreful... they're potentially MORE powerful now. But like I said, I guess it's a matter of how you look at it.

[Blackcat]

To me this story is showing Arachne in a better light compared to Carol herself. Ms. Marvel is not the center of the story to me, but Arachne

[Alpow]

Oh, were the people in the other cars on the highway all invulnerable, too?

No, which is why it might have been a good idea for the registered heroes (who are supposed to be so much more responsible now) to not intercept her there and simply track her until it was safer to bring about a confrontation.

The Pro-Reg people seem to blame the New Warriors for Stanford (even though there were extenuating circumstances) so how come Carol gets a pass here for any collateral damage that may have been caused by engaging the "bad guy"?

[XPac]

To me this story is showing Arachne in a better light compared to Carol herself. Ms. Marvel is not the center of the story to me, but Arachne

I agree. There's just something more compelling about her trying to get to her child and escape the country before the Cape Killers get to her or her daughter.

Honestly, I was never a huge Arachne fan. This is the first time I've ever really be interested in the plight of the character.

[Mothmonsterman]

No, which is why it might have been a good idea for the registered heroes (who are supposed to be so much more responsible now) to not intercept her there and simply track her until it was safer to bring about a confrontation.

So Cops are to blame when a criminal resists arrest and, in doing so, endangers lives?

[Mothmonsterman]

I agree. There's just something more compelling about her trying to get to her child and escape the country before the Cape Killers get to her or her daughter.

It compels me to wonder why she was so stupid as to put herself in that position in the first place.

[Alpow]

So Cops are to blame when a criminal resists arrest and, in doing so, endangers lives?

Apparently costumed vigilantes (who have worked with the Police before as Speedball has) are so why not the costumed Agents of Shield?

Beyond that is the fact that if a Cop acts in a particularly ill considered manner then it can be considered that they also bare some responsibility for what happens, can you give any rational reason why they just couldn’t have followed Arachne and waited for her to stop and then take her?

[Eallison]

So Cops are to blame when a criminal resists arrest and, in doing so, endangers lives?

Apparently so, isn't that why the New Warriors were crucified in the media and court of Public Opinion for Stamford? And yet, magically, Tony wasn't when his out-of-control god-clone murdered Goliath and then tried to kill other fleeing fugitives (pretty sure cops can't shoot fleeing criminals in the back).

So I guess the answer is, it depends on what "moral" Civil War is ramming down our collective throats.

So, in the light of "Clor" versus the New Warriors, I don't really have a problem with Julia's actions -- hell, Carol is as much to blame for forcing the confrontation in public (you know, like the New Warriors did, the ones that were ostensibly the cause of the SRA?).

Either the actions were foolhardy, or not. And since Pro-SRA heroes have been acting, IMHO, as recklessly as the New Warriors, t'would seem the SRA (that thing supposedly making heroes more accountable and careful) is a mighty hypocritical thing.

Take it and run.

[Eallison]

That's actually an interesting question... is Julia's daughter in danger? Will the PRO side threaten her daughter? I am curious to see how far they would go if we're talking about a young child.

I don't see why not, S.H.I.E.L.D. was perfectly willing to go after Prowler's wife, pretty much KNOWING she wasn't involved, just to make Prowler talk. What's a young child at this point? I mean, as long as they don't blow her up, they're certainly not doing anything wrong ...

Score another point for the "both sides have legitimate points of view" angle :rolleyes:

Take it and run.

[jaxcs]

Oh, were the people in the other cars on the highway all invulnerable, too?

I think for every superhero battle except for CW1, no civilians were ever hurt or put in any real danger. If we don't follow this rule then nearly every battle in every title likely resulted in civilian deaths.

[jaxcs]

So Cops are to blame when a criminal resists arrest and, in doing so, endangers lives?

You can argue all you want about whether Arachne was justified in attempting to flee but please stop arguing from the prespective of potential harm to civilians. I point out to you that Ms. Marvel knocked out the wheel of a car and sent it flying across a hightway divider. Didn't this endanger lives, both the people in the car and other motorists? Where did all that shield training go? Aren't the pro-heroes supposed to me better trained and less reckless than the New Warriors?

[The Cool Thatguy]

(pretty sure cops can't shoot fleeing criminals in the back).

Actually, if said criminal poses a danger to the community, lethal force is allowed to prevent the person from fleeing.

I know we're used to heroes fighting one on one and 'fighting fair', but that's never really how real police operate. Cops (smart cops anyways) never want a fight and so, they usually respond to dangerous situations with overwhelming force. When a criminal sees ten cops ready to beat his butt, he's more likely to surrender than if faced by, say, two. It's standard O.P. for all law enforcement agencies that I know of, and IMO is a smart policy.

'Course, that won't prevent writers from treating the cops and such as storm troopers, sigh...

[Eallison]

Actually, if said criminal poses a danger to the community, lethal force is allowed to prevent the person from fleeing.

I know we're used to heroes fighting one on one and 'fighting fair', but that's never really how real police operate. Cops (smart cops anyways) never want a fight and so, they usually respond to dangerous situations with overwhelming force. When a criminal sees ten cops ready to beat his butt, he's more likely to surrender than if faced by, say, two. It's standard O.P. for all law enforcement agencies that I know of, and IMO is a smart policy.

'Course, that won't prevent writers from treating the cops and such as storm troopers, sigh...

Maybe, but were these fleeing heroes a "danger to the community"? My argument would be that they weren't, and a "Clor" willing to use lethal force at the drop of a hat WOULD be more of a threat.

Take it and run.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Maybe, but were these fleeing heroes a "danger to the community"? My argument would be that they weren't, and a "Clor" willing to use lethal force at the drop of a hat WOULD be more of a threat.

Take it and run.

Well, I'm just talking about 'in theory'. Civil War, in terms of execution, stinks seven ways to Sunday.

[XPac]

So Cops are to blame when a criminal resists arrest and, in doing so, endangers lives?

Well, her motivations aren't as clear as some other characters (it's not like her own book afterall).

I suspect she expereinced the same thing Spiderman and even some readers experienced... they discovered the registration was a LOT worse than she probably initially thought. Helping to catch heroes that are breaking the law is one thing... helping to catch them then throwing them in the negative zone for life without trial is another. Not saying she knows about that, but I think in general it's possible she didn't plan on turning them all along, but changed her mind.

If she knew the pro side did the things they would do ahead of time, I'll wager she would have taken her daughter and left earlier. Same with Thing and Spiderman. Not everyone had Caps foresight on how it would turn out.

[Mothmonsterman]

Apparently costumed vigilantes (who have worked with the Police before as Speedball has) are so why not the costumed Agents of Shield?


Apparently so, isn't that why the New Warriors were crucified in the media and court of Public Opinion for Stamford?

No.

Are you guys even reading Civil War?

The New Warriors were seen by the whole nation on tape admitting that the villains were out of their league but going in anyway because it would be good ratings for a reality television show.

The New Warriors forcing a fight with a bunch of supervillains to boost their television ratings is quite different from a cop telling a lawbreaker to pull her car to the side of the road.

[Alpow]

No.

Are you guys even reading Civil War?

The New Warriors were seen by the whole nation on tape admitting that the villains were out of their league but going in anyway because it would be good ratings for a reality television show.

First off, without Nitro’s power boost they actually would have handled them quite easily, obviously (and ironically) the New Warriors (bar Speedball) were being overly cautious.

Secondly, they didn't actually initiate things they were spotted before they finally went for it.

The New Warriors forcing a fight with a bunch of supervillains to boost their television ratings is quite different from a cop telling a lawbreaker to pull her car to the side of the road.

Lastly, at worst (and ignoring what is stated above) they initiated combat with villains in an area and it lead to collateral damage, that is no different than Carol starting a Super powered fight in the middle of a busy high way.

If the New Warriors are responsible for Stanford then Carol is certainly responsible for any civilians harmed in that fight.

[jaxcs]

No.

Are you guys even reading Civil War?

The New Warriors were seen by the whole nation on tape admitting that the villains were out of their league but going in anyway because it would be good ratings for a reality television show.

The New Warriors forcing a fight with a bunch of supervillains to boost their television ratings is quite different from a cop telling a lawbreaker to pull her car to the side of the road.

I think you need to read CW 1 again.

It's not entirely clear that the entire dialogue with speedball and the other New Warriors was broadcast. Some of that dialogue seems to be off the record particularly Speedball's comment to Namorita that she should get a dust up so that her pimple wouldn't show up on TV.

Namorita asked what the plan was and speedball was replying and in mid-sentence when Coldheart spotted them. At that point they went forward because they had only the two choices of backing off or going in. Maybe they made the wrong decision to go in but this is far from your comment that they knew they were over their heads and went in irrespective of their abilities.

There is also good reason to believe that they made the right choice because they were able to defeat every villain in the house with the exception of Nitro. Namorita may have beaten him as well except he was taking power enhancing drugs.

So, the New Warriors forcing a fight in the house and Carol forcing a fight on a busy highway are not that dissimilar. In fact, the New Warriors had less choice since they were spotted. Why didn't Carol follow the car for a couple of miles until traffic cleared and then attempt an arrest?

[Haunt]

I think you need to read CW 1 again.

It's not entirely clear that the entire dialogue with speedball and the other New Warriors was broadcast. Some of that dialogue seems to be off the record particularly Speedball's comment to Namorita that she should get a dust up so that her pimple wouldn't show up on TV.

Speedball knew exactly who they were going up against and didn't tell the others.

So, the New Warriors forcing a fight in the house and Carol forcing a fight on a busy highway are not that dissimilar. In fact, the New Warriors had less choice since they were spotted. Why didn't Carol follow the car for a couple of miles until traffic cleared and then attempt an arrest?

because she had faith that Julia wasn't a homicidal maniac willing to risk the lives of innocent human beings just so she wouldn't have to register. whoops.

[XPac]

because she had faith that Julia wasn't a homicidal maniac willing to risk the lives of innocent human beings just so she wouldn't have to register. whoops.

That still is a fault of Carols part. That whole scene demonstrated Carol being almost comically stupid. And this is the woman they chose to train young heroes? I'm thinking they heroes of the future would be better of on their own. On the average most of them are probably less of a screw up than Carol usually is.

[jaxcs]

Speedball knew exactly who they were going up against and didn't tell the others.
There's absolutely no evidence of this. Make your case. Why demonize the guy? Why can't all of civil war be an overreaction? This doesn't make IM look bad. He predicted something like this would happen. IM is just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

because she had faith that Julia wasn't a homicidal maniac willing to risk the lives of innocent human beings just so she wouldn't have to register. whoops. Really, just stop with the endangering innocent human lives bit. Carol made the car flip over and jump the lane onto traffic going the other way. Maybe she is the homicidal manic?

I'll give Carol credit. She tried to defuse the situation by asking Jula to pull over. Julia responded badly but she knows Carol's limitations, heck scraping Carol against the divider didn't even scatch Carol's costume. But here is the thing, Carol is among shield's best and she almost caused a disaster. I don't think she could have done better against Nitro than Nimorita did without all that training.

[bulbasteve]

It's not entirely clear that the entire dialogue with speedball and the other New Warriors was broadcast. Some of that dialogue seems to be off the record particularly Speedball's comment to Namorita that she should get a dust up so that her pimple wouldn't show up on TV.

It obviously wasn't being broadcast live, that isn't how reality TV works. School was still in session, no matter how bad the ratings were I seriously doubt the show would be premiering at noon or whenever. Clearly they also wouldn't have edited a "very special everyone dies episodes", they just gave the raw footage to the media, including all the pimple stuff since as we all know they record EVERYTHING, and certainly even more so in this case since his producers get the live video signal and were watching it on their screens.

There's absolutely no evidence of this. Make your case. Why demonize the guy? Why can't all of civil war be an overreaction? This doesn't make IM look bad. He predicted something like this would happen. IM is just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Night Thrasher was suprised in hearing that speedfreak almost took down the Hulk, and Microbe said they are out of their league and they shouldn't be doing this. So clearly they were not told who these guys were and their power. Speedball on the other hand was not suprised at all, and was verifying if they were on the FBI most wanted list with his producer and was even able to name Coldheart out of costume before his producer named them all, so obviously he knew who these guys were and his team did not.

Namorita asked what the plan was and speedball was replying and in mid-sentence when Coldheart spotted them. At that point they went forward because they had only the two choices of backing off or going in. Maybe they made the wrong decision to go in but this is far from your comment that they knew they were over their heads and went in irrespective of their abilities.

Two of the people on the team thought they were over their heads, and as you said, they weren't even able to make a plan (which really should be done before you go spying on people).

There is also good reason to believe that they made the right choice because they were able to defeat every villain in the house with the exception of Nitro. Namorita may have beaten him as well except he was taking power enhancing drugs.

So? He was still rammed into a schoolbus that was parked right on the sidewalk in front of school, hell there was a kid stepping right on the other side of the sidewalk. Those kids would have died if he blew up even in his weakest state.

Really, just stop with the endangering innocent human lives bit. Carol made the car flip over and jump the lane onto traffic going the other way. Maybe she is the homicidal manic?

How did she make it happen? Did she suddenly develop TK when I wasn't looking and was able to steer the car into herself? Usually when you are in a high speed chase you assume (especially with a hero) that they have a little more sense than to recklessly endager everyone by ramming people into guardrails. Should all cops wait until they are in a lonely stretch of country road before they try to pull over people speeding along the highway because they might ram their car into things?

[jaxcs]

It obviously wasn't being broadcast live, that isn't how reality TV works. School was still in session, no matter how bad the ratings were I seriously doubt the show would be premiering at noon or whenever. Clearly they also wouldn't have edited a "very special everyone dies episodes", they just gave the raw footage to the media, including all the pimple stuff since as we all know they record EVERYTHING, and certainly even more so in this case since his producers get the live video signal and were watching it on their screens.

It may be that nothing was broadcast. We know that it was being filmed not that it was broadcast. Anyway, whether it was broadcast or not is really immaterial to the story I bring it up becuase the original poster seemed sure that it was broadcast.

Night Thrasher was suprised in hearing that speedfreak almost took down the Hulk, and Microbe said they are out of their league and they shouldn't be doing this. So clearly they were not told who these guys were and their power. Speedball on the other hand was not suprised at all, and was verifying if they were on the FBI most wanted list with his producer and was even able to name Coldheart out of costume before his producer named them all, so obviously he knew who these guys were and his team did not.

I don't think that this proves anything. I'll accept that you have an alternate reading, let me give you mine. Couldn't it have been that since these guys broke out of Rykers and are on the FBI list that Speedball and the rest of the team really do know who might be on it? Speedball being able to identify known villans doesn't clearly show that he was hiding things from his teammates. Maybe everyone had a nodding acquaintance with the list but not everyone knew all the villain stats the same way that you might not know every stat of the the opposing team in a ball game. Me: "Did you know that the next guy batting hit two triples in the last game?" You: "No way!" Our buddy Mike: "Oh yeah...We are doomed."

Why do I prefer my interpretation to your interpretation? Well, why would Speedball would hold out on his teammates? If you can give me a motive for this without making up an incident such as that they had argued about taking down major villians before and Speedball was in favor of this while the rest of the team objected then I will accept your position. I think you read a lot of bad motive into two pages of dialogue when the easier explanation is actually to believe there is none. My interpretation makes the incident at Stamford a tragedy and doesn't make IM or Speedball look terribliy bad. The villian is definitely Nitro. Your inerpretation makes Speedball almost as guilty as Nitro. (Is that the point?)

Two of the people on the team thought they were over their heads, and as you said, they weren't even able to make a plan (which really should be done before you go spying on people).

But they didn't know who was there.

So? He was still rammed into a schoolbus that was parked right on the sidewalk in front of school, hell there was a kid stepping right on the other side of the sidewalk. Those kids would have died if he blew up even in his weakest state.

It's hard to argue about what definitely would have happened or would not have happened in a story. In this story, Nitro was destined to kill some kids but in other stories such as the one where Carol sends a car crashing, nothing happens. Still, maybe if Nitro wasn't on drugs, maybe only 20 kids would have died. Still a large number but not the mind-blowing 400 that we hear again and again.

BTW, is Namorita defintely dead? She seemed to be pretty close to Nitro when he exploded. Why didn't Wolverine's trick of being extemely close to Nitro when he blows up work? Do you basiclly have to hump his leg to be safe?

How did she make it happen? Did she suddenly develop TK when I wasn't looking and was able to steer the car into herself? Usually when you are in a high speed chase you assume (especially with a hero) that they have a little more sense than to recklessly endager everyone by ramming people into guardrails. Should all cops wait until they are in a lonely stretch of country road before they try to pull over people speeding along the highway because they might ram their car into things?

She did it by punching out the wheel of the car. Have you ever had a blow out on your car? The car swerves to one side. In this case, it not only swerved but flipped end over end over a divider. Who are you claiming was endangered, are we talking about Carol or other civilans? Carol is tough, her costume wasn't even torn. As to whether cops should wait until things clear up on the road the answer is yes if they expect a fight. Shroud and Arachne had already battled with shield, was there isn't any reason to suspect this wouldn't happen again? As well trained agents, they should act accordingly and wait until things are calmer before attacking, especially if their primary concern is the well being of civilians.

[Violently Apathetic]

I know that in high speed police chases that the officers are often advised to back off if the situation escalates as to not endanger the public. Ms. Marvel, and many of the other Pro-Reg people, seem to be forgetting this basic principle. You do not engage a suspect in a crowded area unless they pose an immediate threat to innocent people, and people like Julia, Captain America or the Young Avengers clearly don't unless they are being actively pursued. With the full capacity of SHIELD behind them I think that the Pro-Reg people have MANY options other than pushing these people into fights in areas where there are lots of civilians hanging about. Had someone died when SHIELD or any of its Agents pursued a suspect into a crowded area they WOULD share the blame for those deaths in my eyes, just like a cop would share the blame if he engaged in a firefight with a suspect in a Mall or something. Not all the blame, obviously, I'm not advocating stringing them up, but they are behaving recklessly and there has got to be some sort of punishment for that.

[Haunt]

I know that in high speed police chases that the officers are often advised to back off if the situation escalates as to not endanger the public.


Carol was right alongside the car. there would be no reason to back off. if you were running from police (in a car) and they were able to catch up with you, they'd take you down hard. if you're the type to ram vehicles, it would be more of a risk to let you go. they'd probably demand that you pull over and shoot you, if you didn't. Carol should have blasted Julia. but you'd all still see her as the bad guy.


Ms. Marvel, and many of the other Pro-Reg people, seem to be forgetting this basic principle. You do not engage a suspect in a crowded area unless they pose an immediate threat to innocent people,


Julia was posing an immediate threat to innocent people. she stole some guy's car and clothing. she drove recklessly on the highway and was planning to flee the country. she should be ashamed of herself; pretending to be a hero. and i used to like this lady.

Had someone died when SHIELD or any of its Agents pursued a suspect into a crowded area they WOULD share the blame for those deaths in my eyes, just like a cop would share the blame if he engaged in a firefight with a suspect in a Mall or something.

criminal law would say that any death during a commission of a crime is the fault of the criminal.


I don't think that this proves anything. I'll accept that you have an alternate reading, let me give you mine. Couldn't it have been that since these guys broke out of Rykers and are on the FBI list that Speedball and the rest of the team really do know who might be on it? Speedball being able to identify known villans doesn't clearly show that he was hiding things from his teammates.
Why do I prefer my interpretation to your interpretation? Well, why would Speedball would hold out on his teammates?

he was a stupid reckless kid! he didn't hold out on them. it just didn't occur to him to inform his teammates. all he was thinking about was the ratings and how cool taking the supervillains down was going to look on tv. NightThrasher had no idea what he was walking into despite having been the leader of the team in the former series. and Speedball was calling most of the shots. that leads me to believe that Thrash was replaced as the lead of the show and that the producers were talking, mainly, to Speedball.

[XPac]

I know that in high speed police chases that the officers are often advised to back off if the situation escalates as to not endanger the public. Ms. Marvel, and many of the other Pro-Reg people, seem to be forgetting this basic principle. You do not engage a suspect in a crowded area unless they pose an immediate threat to innocent people, and people like Julia, Captain America or the Young Avengers clearly don't unless they are being actively pursued. With the full capacity of SHIELD behind them I think that the Pro-Reg people have MANY options other than pushing these people into fights in areas where there are lots of civilians hanging about. Had someone died when SHIELD or any of its Agents pursued a suspect into a crowded area they WOULD share the blame for those deaths in my eyes, just like a cop would share the blame if he engaged in a firefight with a suspect in a Mall or something. Not all the blame, obviously, I'm not advocating stringing them up, but they are behaving recklessly and there has got to be some sort of punishment for that.

At the end of the day, what does this show us? That the registration does absolutely NOTHING. The whole thing about heroes being better trained and more accountable is just hogwash.

The big difference is that now, because she's a SHIELD agent, anything she does wrong probably be swept under the carpet. Because for political reasons, a relatively high profile hero that actually is suppossed to be training the other heroes can't publically get busted for doing the exact thing the registration is suppossed to prevent.

[Eallison]

Carol was right alongside the car. there would be no reason to back off. if you were running from police (in a car) and they were able to catch up with you, they'd take you down hard. if you're the type to ram vehicles, it would be more of a risk to let you go. they'd probably demand that you pull over and shoot you, if you didn't. Carol should have blasted Julia. but you'd all still see her as the bad guy.

Because her actions, on their face, are no better than those of the New Warriors -- yet so many here are frantically handwaving them away for her. Either the SRA is to provide safer superheroing, or it isn't. The whole POINT of Registration was accountability and more responsibility. Can you honestly say that Carol acted responsibly here? She couldn't keep following Julia until the traffic thinned out? Please :rolleyes:

It's not like Julia was planning to electrocute scores of fleeing citizens, or taking hostages, here. She was fleeing, end of story. And again, I don't recall the Pro-SRA "heroes" EVER being this zealous with real, geniune villains before, either.

Finally, mixing the real-world rationalizations in with the addled reasonings of "Civil War" do not a cohesive whole make :) The logic applies as long as the writers can use it for their stories, and no farther. Because a hero populace with the mentality of the SRA? Wouldn't HAVE villains for long, since they'd be exiled or killed.


Julia was posing an immediate threat to innocent people. she stole some guy's car and clothing. she drove recklessly on the highway and was planning to flee the country. she should be ashamed of herself; pretending to be a hero. and i used to like this lady.

Yeah, thank God she didn't clone an old teammate who then killed someone, then she'd REALLY be bad :) Seriously, she was a hell of a lot less of a threat than many of the ACTUAL villains the Pro-SRA movement is recruiting, so I think your point falls short. And driving recklessly? Seriously? Wow, Tony's crew will be really busy dealing with reckless drivers :) Then again, Julia wouldn't have been so erratic if she weren't being chased, either. Carol exacerbated the situation (much as the New Warriors did at Stamford, and yet one group was condemned -- Carol, not so much, and she SHOULD be, if the logic and reasoning here were at all honest).



criminal law would say that any death during a commission of a crime is the fault of the criminal.

Psssst! Could you maybe clue Millar and Brevoot and Joey Q in on this? Because I seem to recall a tremendous backlash against the New Warriors for something NITRO did. So, hey, if the NW are guilty for Stamford, Carol can take the fall for any damages or injuries in her pursuit of Julia -- after all, fair is fair, and Carol IS allegedly one of those more responsible, accountable, REGISTERED heroes, right?



he was a stupid reckless kid! he didn't hold out on them. it just didn't occur to him to inform his teammates. all he was thinking about was the ratings and how cool taking the supervillains down was going to look on tv. NightThrasher had no idea what he was walking into despite having been the leader of the team in the former series. and Speedball was calling most of the shots. that leads me to believe that Thrash was replaced as the lead of the show and that the producers were talking, mainly, to Speedball.

Agreed here. Assigning malicious motives to Speedball at this point is creating issues whole-cloth.

Take it and run.

[jaxcs]

Carol was right alongside the car. there would be no reason to back off. if you were running from police (in a car) and they were able to catch up with you, they'd take you down hard. if you're the type to ram vehicles, it would be more of a risk to let you go. they'd probably demand that you pull over and shoot you, if you didn't. Carol should have blasted Julia. but you'd all still see her as the bad guy.

You're side steping the issue. Carol wasn't always beside the car. She could have let them go for a bit. They were fleeing NYC to go to Denver. This is a trip that would take at least 2 days driving the car nearly non-stop. Did it really have to take place in NJ or in a populated area?

Julia was posing an immediate threat to innocent people. she stole some guy's car and clothing. she drove recklessly on the highway and was planning to flee the country. she should be ashamed of herself; pretending to be a hero. and i used to like this lady.

She stole the car and clothing a while before Carol and WM got involved. Imediate threat means action must be taken imediately or things will get much worse. I don't think driving on the highway with a stolen car and stolen laundry constitutes immediate threat. She didn't drive erractically until Carol came into the picture. It's not as if she was DWI.

criminal law would say that any death during a commission of a crime is the fault of the criminal.

A hearing would take place to determine if the officer could have taken steps to prevent the death. The officer gets the benefit of doubt but it's not an immediate pass and you wouldn't want it to be one either. Police officers aren't justices like in Judge Dredd.

he was a stupid reckless kid! he didn't hold out on them. it just didn't occur to him to inform his teammates. all he was thinking about was the ratings and how cool taking the supervillains down was going to look on tv. NightThrasher had no idea what he was walking into despite having been the leader of the team in the former series. and Speedball was calling most of the shots. that leads me to believe that Thrash was replaced as the lead of the show and that the producers were talking, mainly, to Speedball.

Speedball certianly was eager and may have been reckless but I repeat, since these villans broke out of prison and are on a list, persumablily one incuding a picture, why couldn't all the New Warriors know who they were fighting? Make your argument.

[bulbasteve]

It may be that nothing was broadcast. We know that it was being filmed not that it was broadcast. Anyway, whether it was broadcast or not is really immaterial to the story I bring it up becuase the original poster seemed sure that it was broadcast.

Almost every recap has mentioned it was broadcast, many tie-ins have said it.

I don't think that this proves anything. I'll accept that you have an alternate reading, let me give you mine. Couldn't it have been that since these guys broke out of Rykers and are on the FBI list that Speedball and the rest of the team really do know who might be on it? Speedball being able to identify known villans doesn't clearly show that he was hiding things from his teammates. Maybe everyone had a nodding acquaintance with the list but not everyone knew all the villain stats the same way that you might not know every stat of the the opposing team in a ball game. Me: "Did you know that the next guy batting hit two triples in the last game?" You: "No way!" Our buddy Mike: "Oh yeah...We are doomed."

Microbe was sweating with a worried look on his face, that isn't a "har har he fought the Hulk" look, it's pretty darn clear what the intention of that scene was, since Speedball had to go and explain WHY they should be doing this. He didn't go "haha, yeah" he argued for the ratings, they were ARGUING, not chitchating.

Why do I prefer my interpretation to your interpretation? Well, why would Speedball would hold out on his teammates? If you can give me a motive for this without making up an incident such as that they had argued about taking down major villians before and Speedball was in favor of this while the rest of the team objected then I will accept your position. I think you read a lot of bad motive into two pages of dialogue when the easier explanation is actually to believe there is none. My interpretation makes the incident at Stamford a tragedy and doesn't make IM or Speedball look terribliy bad. The villian is definitely Nitro. Your inerpretation makes Speedball almost as guilty as Nitro. (Is that the point?)

They say it right there, they say the villains are over their heads, so Speedball kept the fact from them, it's as simple as that.

But they didn't know who was there.

So then you agree they were fatally reckless? Their idea of intel is to have their TV van parked on the street, in broad daylight and to bring the whole team and full camera crew with them? Somehow I think doing it at night with a guy who does not have multi-colored balls floating around him would have drew a bit less attention.

It's hard to argue about what definitely would have happened or would not have happened in a story. In this story, Nitro was destined to kill some kids but in other stories such as the one where Carol sends a car crashing, nothing happens. Still, maybe if Nitro wasn't on drugs, maybe only 20 kids would have died. Still a large number but not the mind-blowing 400 that we hear again and again.

It really isn't hard to argue. He is listed as equivalent 250 pounds of TNT, he was right next to a schoolbus with children literally 3 steps away. Those kids would have died even with the most generous comic logic. And remember originally only Happy Hogan was to have died, so clearly it wouldn't have mattered if 20 or 2000 died, it was still going to happen.

She did it by punching out the wheel of the car. Have you ever had a blow out on your car?

That was after she was rammed into, and she was fast enough to catch the car with Wondermans help, noone on the road was hurt at all, hell they had the guys in the semi truck with their door open gawking at them. That situation was perfectly in control.

[Sheldon]

Did Civil War X-men 4 come out?

[sherlockbones]

Carol was right alongside the car. there would be no reason to back off. if you were running from police (in a car) and they were able to catch up with you, they'd take you down hard. if you're the type to ram vehicles, it would be more of a risk to let you go. they'd probably demand that you pull over and shoot you, if you didn't. Carol should have blasted Julia. but you'd all still see her as the bad guy.
Julia was posing an immediate threat to innocent people. she stole some guy's car and clothing. she drove recklessly on the highway and was planning to flee the country. she should be ashamed of herself; pretending to be a hero. and i used to like this lady.

i would compare it to the advice trautman gives teasle in rambo: let him go arrest him when the dust has settled.
otherwise you could get yourself or other innocent bystanders killed. so what is the gain in endangering a highway full of civilians with an arrest attempt if the person that is trying to escape (and mm knows that) only trying to live in peace with her daughter?
but no! she broke the law! grab her
that is teasle thinking

and why is this discussed in the preview thread now that the issue is out?

[jaxcs]

Almost every recap has mentioned it was broadcast, many tie-ins have said it.
Something was broadcast but not necessarily everything we saw. Some of those panels included the camera man.

Microbe was sweating with a worried look on his face, that isn't a "har har he fought the Hulk" look, it's pretty darn clear what the intention of that scene was, since Speedball had to go and explain WHY they should be doing this. He didn't go "haha, yeah" he argued for the ratings, they were ARGUING, not chitchating.

They say it right there, they say the villains are over their heads, so Speedball kept the fact from them, it's as simple as that.

So then you agree they were fatally reckless? Their idea of intel is to have their TV van parked on the street, in broad daylight and to bring the whole team and full camera crew with them? Somehow I think doing it at night with a guy who does not have multi-colored balls floating around him would have drew a bit less attention.

The claim that Speedball either purposely or negligently withheld information from his teammates depends on him having prior knowledge of villains being in the house but there's very little dialogue to support this. In fact, it depends entirely of Night Thrasher exclaiming no way and Microbe rejoining that the villains are over their heads. This argument that you speak of occurs in a single panel in the entire comic. Namorita never says anything about the villains.

You must have great respect for Millar as a writer to think that he would communicate so much plot with such economy. Personally, I think he hits you over the head with his ideas. I would expect that he would spend more than one panel on this issue and that the comments by Night Thrasher and Microbe would be more personal. Something like, "Speedball you idiot what have you gotten us into!"

Even if your interpretation is the correct one, I still think you lay too much responsibility at Speedball's feet. Not only do you blame him for failing to fully inform his teammates, he is responsible for the placement of the TV van. What responsibility should the other team members have toward being well informed about villains that they are about to combat? What responsibility do the reality show producers have toward their equipment? I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around.

It really isn't hard to argue. He is listed as equivalent 250 pounds of TNT, he was right next to a schoolbus with children literally 3 steps away. Those kids would have died even with the most generous comic logic. And remember originally only Happy Hogan was to have died, so clearly it wouldn't have mattered if 20 or 2000 died, it was still going to happen.

I agree that in this tale, the kids had to die. But this is due to the needs of the story, not logical necessity. Egregious comic logic would have made the bus empty and the kids on the sidewalk whisked away by parents and teachers.

We don't really know how MGH affects Nitro and had Namorita known about the drug perhaps she would have pounded the snot out of the guy instead of giving him a chance to give up and deliver his monologue. Perhaps she wouldn't have died. I mean 250 TNT is a lot but she's tough. Bullet proof vests can protect you from small arms fire but I doubt they are much use against a .50 caliber MG.

That was after she was rammed into, and she was fast enough to catch the car with Wondermans help, noone on the road was hurt at all, hell they had the guys in the semi truck with their door open gawking at them. That situation was perfectly in control.

No one died and most people would take a win anyway they can get it. But, the tag team of Carol and WM didn't get their win through intensive training like the magic of a no-look pass but through shear mad luck. Are you forgetting the part where she says that the car was too heavy and speeding too fast for her to handle? She was lucky that WM was there to pick up the slack. He wasn't there though due to some kind of prior planning. This wasn't team dynamics.

[patch]

can we stop with this farce that the new warriors were somehow out of their league against a bunch of almost lower than d-list villians and barring nitro's powerboost, this fight would not have lasted long at all.

[Jmacq1]

And let's just completely not take into account that Microbe's "we're in over our heads" line may very well have been nothing more than his personal opinion. He was, after all, the "newbie" on a team comprised of several people that helped take down freakin Terrax. You know..."Herald of Galactus" Terrax?

If the whole team thought they weren't going to be able to handle those guys, they wouldn't have gone in. Speedball ain't exactly Captain America when it comes to convincing people to face impossible odds.

So ascribing Microbe's comment to some conspiracy theory about Speedball is a pretty desperate attempt to make Speedball look worse than he already does, and as noted giving far too much credit to Millar as a writer.

The New Warriors weren't out of their league by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that except for Nitro's explosion they were beating the crap out of those guys all but proves it.

As for Civil War: X-Men #4 - It did indeed come out. And was mostly unremarkable save for the fact that it was yet another comic that really ended up making the Pro-Reg side look decent (surprisingly given it was an X-Men title). Ultimately though, the series really only touched on "Civil War" a tiny bit. It was mostly a mini-series to wrap up/resolve the situation between the X-Men, the 198, and O*N*E.

In a (very brief) nutshell:


Val Cooper tries to interrogate General Lazer for codes to get into the bunker, but Johnny Dee kills him before she can get the info.

Cyclops and Bishop attempt the same stunt from earlier in the series to blow open the bunker. Iron Man and Warbird show up to help out, and coordinate with the O*N*E Sentinels. Together, the group gets the bunker open.

Bishop gets an offer to join (and possibly lead) O*N*E. He says he'll think about it. Also, the nature of the Xavier Estate "reservation" is going to be changed so it's far less restrictive. Much more like a real Indian reservation (IE it's voluntary if mutants want to live there or not, and they can come and go as they please). I'm not sure if the Sentinels will still be there or not, but if they are, it's literally just to help guard the grounds, not to keep people from getting out.

[Jeff-E]

Just my two cents... The New Warriors were pretty well idiots in the Stamford incident. They have very limited range and dealing with someone like Nitro thats what you have to do, keep him at arms length(not literally, I mean you need to keep your distance). I know S.H.I.E.L.D. did the same in that issue of Wolverine, but the writer on that arc isn't all that good either. This is a guy who can EXPLODE at will, do you A) Rush in headstrong and see what happens, or B) Take him out from a distance? Yes they took on Terrax, but Terrax isn't known for firing blasts out of his ax(which yes we know he can do) but rather trying to imbed it in to his opponents skulls, he's fairly up front, and usually very close range, while Nitro deffinetly has range and a parimeter you just don't violate when trying to fight him unless you have someone or something that can negate that... the Warriors didn't. If you are a carpenter you show up for work with a hammer and the proper tools, the Warriors didin't have the proper tools and to make it worse they are not exactly novices.

How did the debate even come back to the Stamford incident anyway?

[XPac]

Just my two cents... The New Warriors were pretty well idiots in the Stamford incident. They have very limited range and dealing with someone like Nitro thats what you have to do, keep him at arms length(not literally, I mean you need to keep your distance). I know S.H.I.E.L.D. did the same in that issue of Wolverine, but the writer on that arc isn't all that good either. This is a guy who can EXPLODE at will, do you A) Rush in headstrong and see what happens, or B) Take him out from a distance? Yes they took on Terrax, but Terrax isn't known for firing blasts out of his ax(which yes we know he can do) but rather trying to imbed it in to his opponents skulls, he's fairly up front, and usually very close range, while Nitro deffinetly has range and a parimeter you just don't violate when trying to fight him unless you have someone or something that can negate that... the Warriors didn't. If you are a carpenter you show up for work with a hammer and the proper tools, the Warriors didin't have the proper tools and to make it worse they are not exactly novices.

How did the debate even come back to the Stamford incident anyway?


Range wasn't really the problem though... the ONE mistake they made tactically was purely that Namorita didn't hit him hard enough (though I do agree with the criticism that they shoudln't have engaged in the battle at all in front of a school yard full of kids).

Namorita was able to fly up and hit him. And she SHOULD in theory be strong enough to knock him out, she just didn't hit him hard enough. The idea that they were out of their league isn't exactly accurate... they could have won that fight, power up or no power up.

[Grunty]

Civil War X-men was lame, somehow i didn't felt anything there. No thrill what happens next, no urge to read it.
The sentinels where uglier than the regular ones.

And what the hell was that with Marauders, Gene Nations and Morlocks hanging around like friends all the time. I mean they all are related in actions of hate and fear for each other.

Leech action in the end shows that he really is a little pooser, for a side character he is damm powerfull. I wonder why Sinister never tried to clone him?

So in the end no hint for Cecilia Reyes, even thought Operation Zero Tolerance was mentiod in the last issue and both Sabra and Icemen where in this book as well.

The thing that disturbs me as well is how Fever Pitch was hanging in the air in the last pannel.

[Haunt]

Leech action in the end shows that he really is a little pooser, for a side character he is damm powerfull. I wonder why Sinister never tried to clone him?

Because Sinister had Scrambler (the marauder). his power was like Leech's but nastier.

[Grunty]

Remind me if i am wrong wasn't that the asian boy who accidently touched Rouge during the Morlock Massacre, which resulted in a double K.O?