Gail what do you think of this opinion of Sue Storm in Civil War?

[Briareos]

Here ya go:

http://tammy212.livejournal.com/2099.html

[Jack Zodiac]

While I think Mark's writing, especially what he's doing in Civil War, is extremely poor, and his characterization totally off-base, I don't think it's for the same reasons as this... nutty blogger believes.

Sue and Johnny are going to the losing side in a superhuman civil war. Of course she isn't bringing her children. She's leaving them with their father, both because he's the only remaining family they'll have with their mother and uncle underground and their surrogate uncle apparently moving to Canada, and because she thinks it might help Reed wise up. He's been a giant prick, as of late (just like pretty much every other character Marvel's writing, now). Also, placing her self on the opposing side forces him to choose between what he, for whatever completely uncharacteristic reason, believes is right and his family.

I don't think her actions were out of character. In fact, of all of the characters in this fucking debacle, she's probably the only one being written even halfway decent.

[PatrickG]

Anyone remember Walt Simonson's FF run where the new FF formed and Reed betrayed Sue for a Skrull woman? Those were my first FF comics. I believed he was actually betraying her at the time. I loved the fakeout all the more in retrospect for not seeing through Reed's ruse. His catch phrase he used to let Roberta the robot receptionist know he was lying was something like, "You can tell that to all my friends in the Navy."

I keep waiting for him to spout off that line in Civil War.

I mean, sure, he and Sue would have some drama if he was faking a pro-Reg stance. It would be awkward if he maybe even made sure that she would leave him by INTENTIONALLY pushing her away and INTENTIONALLY being a dick and if maybe he was INTENTIONALLY pushing Spidey's buttons to switch sides.

But that would be CLASSIC Reed Richards. Set up an elaborate scheme years in advance, lie to everyone you know, jeopardize your marriage and your friendships... Only to reveal that you were covertly on the same side as them all along.

Now, if he really is Pro-Reg, I'd say he's the victim of bad writing, not Sue, unless we're missing something HUGE.

I mean, the guy got his powers by STEALING A GOVERNMENT ROCKET. And if jailing Hornet is justified for being unregistered, putting a bullet in Franklin's head is justified for once having powers that could create and destroy universes. Also, both of Reed's personal lawyers oppose registration. And Reed has waved the flag of freedom in Doom's face more than once.

Heck, Reed should be ultra-progressive and a bit anarchist by virtue of being, essentially, A MAD SCIENTIST. It makes sense for Tony to be pro-reg. But Reed is the type of guy who performs illegal experiments and gets by with it because he knows people in government and they know him. Blanket safety laws would cripple Mr. Fantastic.

But Reed would totally create a few clones and push his family away and engage in a decade long conspiracy as a ruse. I could buy that.

So we'll see how this goes.

[Cayman]

It's a little extreme. I don't think Sue thinks Reed is evil but she does believe him wrong. She knows he loves their children and that they'd be safer with him than joining her as a fugitive from the law being pursued by SHIELD agents.

I thought Sue has rocked in CW.

I'm more curious how Marvel feels about a writer in their employ posting something like that though. Does DC or Marvel give their writers guidelines on how they can present themselves in blogs and message board discussions?

[shrike]

From what I read of Civil War (I read it in the shop, much like Identity Crisis when it came out... I wont actually BUY these things) Sue actually has been written much better than most of the cast, IMO.

[Cayman]

From what I read of Civil War (I read it in the shop, much like Identity Crisis when it came out... I wont actually BUY these things) Sue actually has been written much better than most of the cast, IMO.

Yeah, Sue seems pretty cool so far to me. But then I've always liked her more than Reed.

[Night Swordsman]

While I think Mark's writing, especially what he's doing in Civil War, is extremely poor, and his characterization totally off-base, I don't think it's for the same reasons as this... nutty blogger believes.

Sue and Johnny are going to the losing side in a superhuman civil war. Of course she isn't bringing her children. She's leaving them with their father, both because he's the only remaining family they'll have with their mother and uncle underground and their surrogate uncle apparently moving to Canada, and because she thinks it might help Reed wise up. He's been a giant prick, as of late (just like pretty much every other character Marvel's writing, now). Also, placing her self on the opposing side forces him to choose between what he, for whatever completely uncharacteristic reason, believes is right and his family.

I don't think her actions were out of character. In fact, of all of the characters in this fucking debacle, she's probably the only one being written even halfway decent.

This is not a slam or disagreement with your opinions(most of which in the past i have disagreed with),but merely wishing to state a fact about the "Nutty Blogger".
I just wanted to state the fact that the "Nutty Blogger",as you call her,is none other than Tamora Pierce,writer of the upcoming White Tiger mini-series and published fantasy author. This is NOT stating that you did or did not know this,but i noticed that NO where on this thread has it been mentioned who's blog it was,who was stating their opinions,and i felt it should be mentioned.
Thats it.
Pure information,nothing else.

[Matt Linton]

Just to inject my opinion, I think "Nutty Blogger" is out of line regardless of who the blogger is. It's a lazy dismissal of an opinion by catergorizing the writer as someone who shouldn't be listened to, before even taking on their opinion. I do give Jack credit for backing up his disagreement, but he'd have had a much stronger case if he hadn't started off the way he did.

[shrike]

Just to inject my opinion, I think "Nutty Blogger" is out of line regardless of who the blogger is. It's a lazy dismissal of an opinion by catergorizing the writer as someone who shouldn't be listened to, before even taking on their opinion. I do give Jack credit for backing up his disagreement, but he'd have had a much stronger case if he hadn't started off the way he did.

You know, I'm very indifferent, but isn't it weird to chastise someone for the word 'nutty' in describing someone when we have THREAD TITLES that call people 'assholes', 'dipshits' and, well, 'cunts' (ugh... hate that word)?

The opinion that someone is a 'nutty blogger' seems rather tame, imo.

[Briareos]

I called Adam Crocker Norwegian once...

[Matt Linton]

You know, I'm very indifferent, but isn't it weird to chastise someone for the word 'nutty' in describing someone when we have THREAD TITLES that call people 'assholes', 'dipshits' and, well, 'cunts' (ugh... hate that word)?

The opinion that someone is a 'nutty blogger' seems rather tame, imo.

True, but I don't like those either. Anyway, I just finished watching STUDIO 60, and I'm feeling Sorkin-ly idealistic.

[PatrickG]

Are we talking the Sorkin who got on West Wing boards and used a pseudonym to defend WW against critics?

Not that I have a problem with that but I'd wager Sorkin has made charges about on the level of "nutty blogger".

[Matt Linton]

I meant "Sorkin-ly" in terms of the idealistic characters he writes, not the man himself.

[Gail Simone]

I've heard of this but I'm way behind on Civil War so I can't say much. I think Tamora Pierce and Mark Millar are both insane talents, though. Ask me again when I've read it!

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I've spoken with Tammy a lot, and she is FAR from some nut with a grudge. She's sharp as a tack, knows what the hell she's talking about, and writes #1 bestsellers.

Gail

[Cayman]

Pierce responded on the LITG board. http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3833432&postcount=5

I've never read anything she's written but I'm really looking forward to White Tiger.

[shrike]

Pierce responded on the LITG board. http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3833432&postcount=5

I've never read anything she's written but I'm really looking forward to White Tiger.

I don't agree with her stance, but I LOVE the fact that she stands up for what she believes in. That takes serious guts, and not something you see a lot of in comicsland anymore.

[Ian Boothby]

Here's my big problem with the way Reed is written in Civil War. He's the law and order guy. The law is what matters.

But in Fantastic Four number one, this is the guy that talks his pals into stealing a rocket.

[EdContradictory]

But in Fantastic Four number one, this is the guy that talks his pals into stealing a rocket.
And in Waid's run caused an international incident by taking over Latveria.

But the "Law & Order" thing isn't really the motivation given for him in the main Civil War book, that's the motivation JMS gave him in ASM and F4.

[NickThompson]

And in Waid's run caused an international incident by taking over Latveria.

But the "Law & Order" thing isn't really the motivation given for him in the main Civil War book, that's the motivation JMS gave him in ASM and F4.
My one iritation with CW as a whole is a lot of the pro-reggers only have the stance of "It's the law!". DEADPOOL has given better reasoning than that! There are plenty of reasons why one could be pro-reg, why not use them?


Spider-Man saying it makes sense though, he's said pretty much the same thing before.

[Matt Linton]

The one motivation I can understand at this point is Tony Stark's. He was anti-reg before Stanford, now he's pro-reg. Very much like many fairly dovish people in our world became hawks after 9/11.

[NickThompson]

The one motivation I can understand at this point is Tony Stark's. He was anti-reg before Stanford, now he's pro-reg. Very much like many fairly dovish people in our world became hawks after 9/11.
Let's see, possible motivations off the top of my head...



- You want to be a superhero to fight crime.

- It's the law.

- The bill will pass - better to be trying to change it on the inside than on the outside as a fugitive.

- Accountability and responsibility. Police are trained, doctors are trained, hostage negotiators are trained, guns are registered. Why are superheroes above this?

[Gail Simone]

I'm gonna say again, Tamora Pierce is no fool. She's an incredibly generous and smart person.

So is Mark Millar.

I'd better read this dang issue so I know what I'm talking about!

Gail

[Matt Linton]

The "It's the law" argument would hold more water if most of these folks hadn't been breaking the law already by being vigilantes. Long before Civil War.

[shrike]

Let's see, possible motivations off the top of my head...



- You want to be a superhero to fight crime.

- It's the law.

- The bill will pass - better to be trying to change it on the inside than on the outside as a fugitive.

- Accountability and responsibility. Police are trained, doctors are trained, hostage negotiators are trained, guns are registered. Why are superheroes above this?

Cloning is illegal, so what about Clor? That's also a 'law' issue, correct?

I also draw the line when super heroes take more time to hunt down other super heroes... not only THAT, but they also enlist known killers to assist in said hunting. That'd be like bringing out Charles Manson to help find and arrest the Zodiac Killer. It's completely flawed logic, no matter how you cut it.

[Ian Boothby]

It's the mistake of going, "You know realistically..." when it comes to a superhero universe. It's so founded on magic, aliens, gods and radioactive accidents that when you focus on details and justification it all falls apart.

What you can do is deal with emotions realistically. That works. Saying, "We have people here who are walking atomic bombs that could destroy a city" doesn't. It would on our world but one where Galactus drops by to try and eat the planet over and over, where Asgard hovers over New York, where Hell itself occastionally bursts through the streets? No. The atomic bomb guy is no more a threat than what happens every Thursday.

But when you deal with emotions realistically you can't just make someone change their personality to fit the plot you want. That's what's happening here. It's what happened in Identity Crisis. It makes heroes behave in shocking ways but doesn't get there honestly.

[shrike]

It's the mistake of going, "You know realistically..." when it comes to a superhero universe. It's so founded on magic, aliens, gods and radioactive accidents that when you focus on details and justification it all falls apart.

What you can do is deal with emotions realistically. That works. Saying, "We have people here who are walking atomic bombs that could destroy a city" doesn't. It would on our world but one where Galactus drops by to try and eat the planet over and over, where Asgard hovers over New York, where Hell itself occastionally bursts through the streets? No. The atomic bomb guy is no more a threat than what happens every Thursday.

But when you deal with emotions realistically you can't just make someone change their personality to fit the plot you want. That's what's happening here. It's what happened in Identity Crisis. It makes heroes behave in shocking ways but doesn't get there honestly.

Haha after the first two paragraphs I had decided to write something along the lines of 'Maybe you should have passed that info to Brad Meltzer' but obviously the third paragraph rendered it moot. :D

[NickThompson]

Cloning is illegal, so what about Clor? That's also a 'law' issue, correct?
IN THEORY, yes. It depends how Clor turns out, of course. Legally, there may be a loophole as he is a god :)

I don't know the exact cloning laws in the US. Of course, the other angle is wether it is right ethically. I don't think it is. However, one could argue that the MU Earth NEEDS a Thor. Most heroes are pretty much replacable on a wide scale, but people like Thor and Dr Strange are on another level. Can we truly afford to be without them?

Cloning Thor is very Stark-y to me. Remember, this is a man who has previously executed prisoners, fought SHIELD agents and heroes and formed a pro-active superhero team.

I also draw the line when super heroes take more time to hunt down other super heroes... not only THAT, but they also enlist known killers to assist in said hunting. That'd be like bringing out Charles Manson to help find and arrest the Zodiac Killer. It's completely flawed logic, no matter how you cut it.
I'm a fan of the Dirty Dozen, so I think you can see my view on New Thunderbolts :)

[Corrina]

I'm gonna say again, Tamora Pierce is no fool. She's an incredibly generous and smart person.

So is Mark Millar.

I'd better read this dang issue so I know what I'm talking about!

Gail

Given what others have said, I can almost see Sue leaving the kids with Reed, given she's going into a dangerous situation, she knows Reed will make sure they're safe, and also that having to deal with them (which he will have to when she's not around) will affect him. Plus, the Baxter building is a fortress.

But sleeping with him before she goes...um...???

[PatrickG]

It's the mistake of going, "You know realistically..." when it comes to a superhero universe. It's so founded on magic, aliens, gods and radioactive accidents that when you focus on details and justification it all falls apart.

What you can do is deal with emotions realistically. That works. Saying, "We have people here who are walking atomic bombs that could destroy a city" doesn't. It would on our world but one where Galactus drops by to try and eat the planet over and over, where Asgard hovers over New York, where Hell itself occastionally bursts through the streets? No. The atomic bomb guy is no more a threat than what happens every Thursday.

But when you deal with emotions realistically you can't just make someone change their personality to fit the plot you want. That's what's happening here. It's what happened in Identity Crisis. It makes heroes behave in shocking ways but doesn't get there honestly.


Y'Know... Fair point.

Thing is, you can keep everyone in character and have harebrained shocking THINGS happen.

For instance... and this is an ABSURD instance... Zombie plague hits Metropolis. Superman is trying to fight the zombies without hurting them in case a cure is possible. The Lord of the Zombies chains a piece of Kryptonite to Superman. Jimmy Olsen runs out despite Superman's protests and gets infected by the zombie plague in the process of saving Superman's life. The millitary comes in to take out the zombies. There's a huge explosion before Superman can fully recover and he finds he has the (still living) zombie decapitated head of Jimmy Olsen in his lap. He promises Jimmy that he'll find a way to restore him and takes zombie Jimmy Olsen head back to his Fortress of Solitude where he places it on life support.

BAM. Shocking. Creepy as hell. Admittedly absurd.

But nobody's out of character there.

[PatrickG]

Given what others have said, I can almost see Sue leaving the kids with Reed, given she's going into a dangerous situation, she knows Reed will make sure they're safe, and also that having to deal with them (which he will have to when she's not around) will affect him. Plus, the Baxter building is a fortress.

But sleeping with him before she goes...um...???

She's not divorcing him, just leaving him.

[Cayman]

Given what others have said, I can almost see Sue leaving the kids with Reed, given she's going into a dangerous situation, she knows Reed will make sure they're safe, and also that having to deal with them (which he will have to when she's not around) will affect him. Plus, the Baxter building is a fortress.

But sleeping with him before she goes...um...???

I honestly don't think that's unrealistic. She still loves him but can't be with him at the moment.

[Cayman]

I'm gonna say again, Tamora Pierce is no fool. She's an incredibly generous and smart person.

So is Mark Millar.

I'd better read this dang issue so I know what I'm talking about!

Gail

And also because it's a whole lot of fun.

[Cayman]

I don't agree with her stance, but I LOVE the fact that she stands up for what she believes in. That takes serious guts, and not something you see a lot of in comicsland anymore.

Yeah, I don't thik she said anything outrageous or ridiculous. It's a lot different than, say, the Paty Cockrum thing about Grant Morrison.

And anyway, with her first issue about to drop, I'm sure she'll have to deal with someone on the internet saying she wrote Daredevil or Iron Fist or whomever wrong.

[Corrina]

I honestly don't think that's unrealistic. She still loves him but can't be with him at the moment.

Let's just say I can't follow the logic. Women aren't usually interested in sex, even with someone they love, when they're pissed and disappointed. Certain characters might be (Elektra comes to mind) but those characters tend to be fueled by rage, seeking the physical release provided by sex.

Sue Storm is a woman far closer to my mindset, a women in a long-term marriage with a man she loves and had children with, and is dealing with him being an asshole of the first order. Given her character and that situation, nope, I don't see sex on the agenda one bit.

[Cayman]

Let's just say I can't follow the logic. Women aren't usually interested in sex, even with someone they love, when they're pissed and disappointed. Certain characters might be (Elektra comes to mind) but those characters tend to be fueled by rage, seeking the physical release provided by sex.

Sue Storm is a woman far closer to my mindset, a women in a long-term marriage with a man she loves and had children with, and is dealing with him being an asshole of the first order. Given her character and that situation, nope, I don't see sex on the agenda one bit.

That's cool. I've had experiences that make me feel this is a believable situation though.

[PatrickG]

I don't think the sex was for her. I don't think she wanted to have sex. I think she was doing it to give Reed a "perfect evening" together before she left.

I don't think it's THAT unusual. I imagine a lot of couples have sex when one of the two isn't into it to make the other one happy and I imagine that in some couples, it goes back and forth -- potentially in such a way where there's never a point when both of them want it but they both do it to make the other one happy.

[Corrina]

I don't think the sex was for her. I don't think she wanted to have sex. I think she was doing it to give Reed a "perfect evening" together before she left.

I don't think it's THAT unusual. I imagine a lot of couples have sex when one of the two isn't into it to make the other one happy and I imagine that in some couples, it goes back and forth -- potentially in such a way where there's never a point when both of them want it but they both do it to make the other one happy.

It's damn unusual when you're pissed at your husband. Give him a perfect evening? Think about what you said and then think about Sue's level of anger and disappointment and Reed's behavior. Perfect evening, my ass.

It can happen sometimes when you're tired and you want to please the other person, sure.

Pissed, annoyed, and basically mad as hell....and wanting to make the partner happy? I don't think so.

More to the point, the reason I bought up my experience is that Sue's mindset and character, as previously established, is in that ballpark, not in the one which thinks "oh, poor Reed, I'm leaving him and he'll be sad, so I'll make him happy one last time before I go." Where is anything in Sue's character pointing to her doing that??

(In fairness, Reed's characterization is all messed-up as well...probably worse, in fact.)

[Jack Zodiac]

This is not a slam or disagreement with your opinions(most of which in the past i have disagreed with),but merely wishing to state a fact about the "Nutty Blogger".
I just wanted to state the fact that the "Nutty Blogger",as you call her,is none other than Tamora Pierce,writer of the upcoming White Tiger mini-series and published fantasy author. This is NOT stating that you did or did not know this,but i noticed that NO where on this thread has it been mentioned who's blog it was,who was stating their opinions,and i felt it should be mentioned.
Thats it.
Pure information,nothing else.

Thanks, Swordsman. Don't know her work, and I didn't know that anybody was working on a new White Tiger book. I didn't really like what Bendis did with the mantle until the end, when the new White Tiger (can't remember her name, just that she was one of the agents assigned to watch Murdock) helped Daredevil screw The Kingpin over in the end. I'll definitely check it out, as long as it isn't in some way directly tied to Civil War.

At any rate, I don't think it really matters whose blog that was. It could've been a resurrected Hunter S. Thompson and I still would've disagreed with it.

Just to inject my opinion, I think "Nutty Blogger" is out of line regardless of who the blogger is. It's a lazy dismissal of an opinion by catergorizing the writer as someone who shouldn't be listened to, before even taking on their opinion. I do give Jack credit for backing up his disagreement, but he'd have had a much stronger case if he hadn't started off the way he did.

I'm sure she won't lose any sleep over me calling her a "nutty blogger." Calling her that in no way makes me lazy, nor does it mean I'm dismissing her opinion, or even categorizing her with someone who shouldn't be listened to; and, in fact, I did take on her opinion of Sue's characterization. I read her blog (not lazy), accepted her opinion on the subject (not dismissing), and then disagreed with it point by point. I respect her opinion, as much as I disagree with it.

"Nutty blogger" was my tagline for this random person I didn't know and disagreed with. Even for the Internet, a response like that is ridiculously sensitive, and on behalf of (for all intents and purposes) a complete and total stranger.

I've spoken with Tammy a lot, and she is FAR from some nut with a grudge. She's sharp as a tack, knows what the hell she's talking about, and writes #1 bestsellers.

Gail

She could be a Harvard grad who wrote the sequel to The Bible and I'd still disagree with her on this one.

[Ian Boothby]

Y'Know... Fair point.

Thing is, you can keep everyone in character and have harebrained shocking THINGS happen.

For instance... and this is an ABSURD instance... Zombie plague hits Metropolis. Superman is trying to fight the zombies without hurting them in case a cure is possible. The Lord of the Zombies chains a piece of Kryptonite to Superman. Jimmy Olsen runs out despite Superman's protests and gets infected by the zombie plague in the process of saving Superman's life. The millitary comes in to take out the zombies. There's a huge explosion before Superman can fully recover and he finds he has the (still living) zombie decapitated head of Jimmy Olsen in his lap. He promises Jimmy that he'll find a way to restore him and takes zombie Jimmy Olsen head back to his Fortress of Solitude where he places it on life support.

BAM. Shocking. Creepy as hell. Admittedly absurd.

But nobody's out of character there.

Throw in a gorilla and you've got a 1960s Jimmy Olsen story there.

[MrSuslov]

For instance... and this is an ABSURD instance... Zombie plague hits Metropolis. Superman is trying to fight the zombies without hurting them in case a cure is possible. The Lord of the Zombies chains a piece of Kryptonite to Superman. Jimmy Olsen runs out despite Superman's protests and gets infected by the zombie plague in the process of saving Superman's life. The millitary comes in to take out the zombies. There's a huge explosion before Superman can fully recover and he finds he has the (still living) zombie decapitated head of Jimmy Olsen in his lap. He promises Jimmy that he'll find a way to restore him and takes zombie Jimmy Olsen head back to his Fortress of Solitude where he places it on life support.
I'd buy that book, for sure.

[Tobias March]

It's damn unusual when you're pissed at your husband. Give him a perfect evening? Think about what you said and then think about Sue's level of anger and disappointment and Reed's behavior. Perfect evening, my ass.

It can happen sometimes when you're tired and you want to please the other person, sure.

Pissed, annoyed, and basically mad as hell....and wanting to make the partner happy? I don't think so.

More to the point, the reason I bought up my experience is that Sue's mindset and character, as previously established, is in that ballpark, not in the one which thinks "oh, poor Reed, I'm leaving him and he'll be sad, so I'll make him happy one last time before I go." Where is anything in Sue's character pointing to her doing that??

(In fairness, Reed's characterization is all messed-up as well...probably worse, in fact.)


Yeah that's the part of the blog's argument that rankles the most. But a thought just occured to me. Someone above mentioned the Walt Simonson fakeout. Bearing inmind that I haven't read the issue in question (I am interested in Civil War though) was Sue making love to Reed depicted? Or is this another ridiculous comicbook fakeout - that they did not have sex at all and Sue is referring to some strange code?

Now this is an absurd suggestion, but it just struck me. Plus the transcipt in LITG reads - really stilted. Whether or not Millar is writing CW chars properly, Sue's words in that letter just read wrong. They barely scanned for me. So giving Millar the benefit of the doubt, it might be a code.

On the other hand it could be just kinda lousy writing. Occams Razor and such :confused:

[kingdom2000]

I didn't see any problem with the characterization. If anything it did a lot to make her interesting as a character (then again the FF has never captured my interest). Its funny to me how people always decide a character is out of character when its a story arc they don't like but otherwise its all grand and nice.

Actually reading that rant from the white tiger writer guaranted I will not read her title as she holds characters a little to sacroscant for my interests. If go into the kind of detail and what if scenarios she was spinning off in, its real easy to pick apart any direction a writer takes a character. That way lies stagnation. I find it especially ironic considering she is developing a character created by Bendis who is considering by many the king of mis-charactization. (Makes me wonder if her mindset is more on "fixing" rather then creating). For me, the best comics is about change. Sometimes the change is enjoyed, sometimes its not, but I want change. Static is boring.

Its why after the disaster of One Year Later, I dropped nearly every single DCU title because nearly all of them reset back to norm after the first story arc. Thats not change. Thats a hiccup. Sure years from now the Marvel U will shift back to normal Spider-Man is who, FF is a family, Iron Man/Cap America friends forever and so forth but I am looking forward to the ride until then.

[MacQuarrie]

Here's my big problem with the way Reed is written in Civil War. He's the law and order guy. The law is what matters.

But in Fantastic Four number one, this is the guy that talks his pals into stealing a rocket.
Yup.

As a scientist, Reed knows the difference between laws and regulations. Laws are necessary. Without them, the system collapses. Regulations are routines devised to make things easier for the authorities. They don't need to be adhered to; if you're willing to pay the fine, you can ignore them all day long.

There's no way Reed is a Law and Order guy. He's a pragmatic "do what works" guy.

[MacQuarrie]

I didn't see any problem with the characterization. If anything it did a lot to make her interesting as a character (then again the FF has never captured my interest). Its funny to me how people always decide a character is out of character when its a story arc they don't like but otherwise its all grand and nice.
Have you ever met a mother? There's no way that any mother who really cares about her kids would leave them in that situation. They either take the kids with them or they stay and endure the crap.

That was the single worst piece of writing ever put in a comic. Worse than Identity Crisis. Worse than all of Infinite Crisis rolled together.

[Bob Violence]

The only way CW works for me is if I think of the characters as soap-opera actors who have to follow the script, no matter how screwed up and out of character it may be. Identity Crisis works that way too. I think of it as "The Justice League in.." and things make more sense.

[MacQuarrie]

The only way CW works for me is if I think of the characters as soap-opera actors who have to follow the script, no matter how screwed up and out of character it may be. Identity Crisis works that way too. I think of it as "The Justice League in.." and things make more sense.
That's gold. Really.

[Sabrinaset]

Really, the big problems I'm having with Civil war are that ... well ...

1) It's a great story, but you have to completely ignore all the characterizations of these characters in order to make it work. I mean, reed ... there's a reason I use a robotic font when I do Reed's dialogue in my Civil war satires. Spidey an Iron Man quisling. Implications of Reed and Tony doing this for the monetary windfall. Why, they couldn't POSSIBLY be doing this because it's right ... well, except for the occasional portrayal of Tony as hoping he's doing the right thing. Reed cloning Thor and thinking that's a GOOD thing. Like, they WERE friends ... or was I dreaming that?

2) Completely one-sided, despite what Marvel promised. Reed's only real defense of the SHRA? "Uhm ... I supported the McCarthy Hearings." Oookay ... yeah, thanks JMS, that's a REAL nice way to have Reed defend it. Okay, let's be honest here, JMS ... he didn't WANT to present both sides, just make one side look really good and the other really bad. One side is being compared to Nazis. Hmm. ANY chance the OTHER side will be called sabotuers? Terrorists? If they have, not in what I've bought. AND a huge traitor on the side of the pro-reggers. Nope ... not seeing anything like that on the anti-reg side, no sirree.

3) The story is almost completly absorbed in the punishment of whoever violates the law. NO real mention of the good that comes from following the law, just inhumane prisons in the negative Zone sapping your life and suicides while locked away. No real insight into the training of future heroes. Oh, well ... we DO have murderous psychopaths working for Tony hunting down Cap and co. Well, okay ... Venom is a beneficiary of the SHRA. Goblin too. Not Cap, though. Not Goliath. Ultimately, who benefits from the SHRA? Villains. Uh-huh.

Yep ... sure is easy for Marvel to use some ham-fisted plotting to give us a great story and twisting everything and everyone around in the process. I wish Quesada had been honest about this at least and said "Look. We're gonna present a one -sided story. We're gunna have some heroes do some VERY nasty things to some people who you THOUGHT were their friends. You will NOT like who these people become. But that's Millar doing what he does best!"

The more I think about it ... the more I wish they had done this sorta like Moore did with Watchmen ... use the Charlton caharters, but alter them so they were barely recognizable, THEN do whatever he wanted to do with them.

[Tommy]

Well being that I believe I have every single appearance of Valeria Richards, and the entire third volume of Fantastic Four, I can say with out a shadow of a doubt that Reed has been as perfect a father as he could be. At least as good as Sue.

I find it hard to believe that Sue would take two children (one of whom is only around a year or two old) into the life of a fugitive rather than leave them with their loving father. Especially considering she could have dumped them off in Attilan.

[Sabrinaset]

Uhm ... she DID leave the kids with Reed!

[Cayman]

I'm not sure the Inhumans would be ok with babysitting with their current status in the MU.

[Jack Zodiac]

1) It's a great story, but you have to completely ignore all the characterizations of these characters in order to make it work.

I thoroughly agree with this, because the initial idea of registering superhumans (while used before) sounded like a great political story that could've made for a decent introspective on the way superheroics work and how that would change with regulations set in place by the government. However, every single character has been written like shit.

My number one biggest problem with Civil War? They let Mark Millar write it. If they were gonna' give this guy an entire universe to fuck up, they should've let him do it with the Ultimate Universe. All of the MU counterparts there are already assholes anyway.

[shrike]

All of the MU counterparts there are already assholes anyway.

Very true.

I'm just so friggin sick of writers trying to put story over character, when in reality both suffer in the end.

Brad Meltzer, Mark Millar and Geoff Johns seriously have made comics suck much ass in recent times with these insipid 'big stories'.

[Jack Zodiac]

Yep. When instead, if they focus on just telling one great story that doesn't have to revolutionize whatever universe they're working with, they can all tell incredible stories. Geoff's run on Hawkman and The Flash were incredible. Meltzer's "Archer's Quest" from Green Arrow is still the best run on the relaunch to date. And Millar's work on The Authority and his Superman: Red Son prestige mini was awesome.

Give them some huge blockbuster event, though, and they all turn to shit.

[Sabrinaset]

Hehe thanks!

You know, the one thing I was GOING to write when I first posted that ... well, and I got so worked up I forgot to actually write it ... is ... well ... WHY would Nick Fury help the anti-reggers? I mean, really ... it makes NO sense to me. This guy has arranged I dunno HOW many super-powered agents of SHIELD because he wanted heroes he could have under governmental control, has found out the ID's of many heroes ... Spidey, Thor, etc ... bought out 51% of Stark Industries stock in order to control that ... I mean, you'd think that he, of ALL people, who's spent most of his life working for the gov't and controlling heroes/making them work for him by coercing them by hook or by crook, in one way or another ... would be furiously PRO-reg ... but there he is working for the other side. The characterization is just 180 degrees away from where he should be. And he's just ONE of them. Don't get me started on why Battlestar is anti-reg.

It really makes NO sense to me. And the only answer we get is "Uhm ... wait til next year ... or maybe later for that answer..." I dunno.

But I DO like Civil War ... cuz, besides All-Star Batman and Robin, it gives me something to satirize!

[Magneto_X]

That'd be like bringing out Charles Manson to help find and arrest the Zodiac Killer. It's completely flawed logic, no matter how you cut it.

Police have used convicted killers to help them catch others before. Authorities used Ted Bundy to assist them in getting the Green River Killer, for example.

[Magneto_X]

I don't think the sex was for her. I don't think she wanted to have sex. I think she was doing it to give Reed a "perfect evening" together before she left.

I don't think it's THAT unusual. I imagine a lot of couples have sex when one of the two isn't into it to make the other one happy and I imagine that in some couples, it goes back and forth -- potentially in such a way where there's never a point when both of them want it but they both do it to make the other one happy.

I haven't read the issue so I'm not sure *exactly* what happened but are you sure they even had sex in the first place? Could it have been a ruse to make any people listening in via bugs (wouldn't pout it past Iron Dick or Director Hill) or "allies" of Reed in close proximity to fool them?

They may have just been discussing what the next step is.

[shrike]

Police have used convicted killers to help them catch others before. Authorities used Ted Bundy to assist them in getting the Green River Killer, for example.

Yes, but they didnt realease the man from prison to do it.

[Magneto_X]

Yes, but they didnt realease the man from prison to do it.

That's true.

[PatrickG]

Throw in a gorilla and you've got a 1960s Jimmy Olsen story there.

Did I mention that the Lord of the Zombies was a mod, British, tweed suit wearing intellectual mutant gorilla with a monocle and a pipe? He comes from the year 7,667 where everyone on earth is a gorilla with zombie servants thanks to radioactive missiles launched by aliens in an interstellar war?

The solution, naturally, is for Superman to break the time barrier and recruit an old west gunslinger, a caveman, an Indian chief, Gilgamesh, John F. Kennedy and Dean Martin to diffuse the war in the year 7.647 thus preventing the Lord of the Zombies from ever becoming a mutant gorilla zombie lord and restoring Jimmy Olsen to normal.

Of course, this all causes Clark Kent to nearly miss a dinner date with Lois where she had rigged an high powered X-Ray cannon to reveal his secret identity but in a daring save, Dean Martin dashes in dressed as Superman in a gorilla suit and claims to have been mutated into a gorilla by red Kryptonite (conveniently a new routine in his lounge act) just SECONDS before Lois is ready to pump Clark full of high powered radiation.

Which naturally prompts Clark to think, "Gee... Looks like Dean Martin sure made a monkey out of Lois...!"

But of course that's part 3 of our *sob* Amazing 3-Part Full Length Novel Adventure. Not a dream, hoax or imaginary story.

Just some trippy shit.

[shrike]

Did I mention that the Lord of the Zombies was a mod, British, tweed suit wearing intellectual mutant gorilla with a monocle and a pipe? He comes from the year 7,667 where everyone on earth is a gorilla with zombie servants thanks to radioactive missiles launched by aliens in an interstellar war?

The solution, naturally, is for Superman to break the time barrier and recruit an old west gunslinger, a caveman, an Indian chief, Gilgamesh, John F. Kennedy and Dean Martin to diffuse the war in the year 7.647 thus preventing the Lord of the Zombies from ever becoming a mutant gorilla zombie lord and restoring Jimmy Olsen to normal.

Of course, this all causes Clark Kent to nearly miss a dinner date with Lois where she had rigged an high powered X-Ray cannon to reveal his secret identity but in a daring save, Dean Martin dashes in dressed as Superman in a gorilla suit and claims to have been mutated into a gorilla by red Kryptonite (conveniently a new routine in his lounge act) just SECONDS before Lois is ready to pump Clark full of high powered radiation.

Which naturally prompts Clark to think, "Gee... Looks like Dean Martin sure made a monkey out of Lois...!"

But of course that's part 3 of our *sob* Amazing 3-Part Full Length Novel Adventure. Not a dream, hoax or imaginary story.

Just some trippy shit.


I think not only did you stand next to Morrison, you very well sucked the brain from his body after reading this.

[NickThompson]

1) It's a great story, but you have to completely ignore all the characterizations of these characters in order to make it work. I mean, reed ... there's a reason I use a robotic font when I do Reed's dialogue in my Civil war satires. Spidey an Iron Man quisling. Implications of Reed and Tony doing this for the monetary windfall. Why, they couldn't POSSIBLY be doing this because it's right ... well, except for the occasional portrayal of Tony as hoping he's doing the right thing. Reed cloning Thor and thinking that's a GOOD thing. Like, they WERE friends ... or was I dreaming that?
Spider-Man thought he was doing the right thing, and now realises he disagrees.

Also, I see the financial thing as simply a tool to fuel Peter's paranoia.

2) Completely one-sided, despite what Marvel promised. Reed's only real defense of the SHRA? "Uhm ... I supported the McCarthy Hearings." Oookay ... yeah, thanks JMS, that's a REAL nice way to have Reed defend it. Okay, let's be honest here, JMS ... he didn't WANT to present both sides, just make one side look really good and the other really bad. One side is being compared to Nazis. Hmm. ANY chance the OTHER side will be called sabotuers? Terrorists? If they have, not in what I've bought. AND a huge traitor on the side of the pro-reggers. Nope ... not seeing anything like that on the anti-reg side, no sirree.
I think JMS has been pretty fair in ASM, to be honest. We've had some good moments in Stark's head, and in the early arc I thought good pro-reg arguments were made.

I do think a lot of the pro-reg arguments have been a bit weak though, considering the fact that there are a lot of good reasons for it. Worryingly, Deadpool was making one of the best arguments for it :)

[Typo Lad]

Frnakly, the Sue "Having sex she isn't interested in for Reed's sake" fits almost every writer's take on her in the 60's and 70's. My blog is littered with samples of this.

Not saying that it is in character. I'm saying some writer's views of wives belong back in the dark ages.

[Cayman]

Who said Sue wasn't interested in it? It might've been the last time she made love with the man she loves.

[Typo Lad]

Except she wasn't loving him just then. In fact, she was leaving him. Because she was angry at him.

Let me tell you, when someone does something that revolts and disgusts you, the last thing you wanna do is let them elongate in you.

[Cayman]

Except she wasn't loving him just then. In fact, she was leaving him. Because she was angry at him.

Let me tell you, when someone does something that revolts and disgusts you, the last thing you wanna do is let them elongate in you.

She still loves him and she wants him to wake up to what he's doing and change so they can be together again.

[Typo Lad]

You can still love someone and not want to have sex with them because they're being a shitheel.

[Cayman]

You can still love someone and not want to have sex with them because they're being a shitheel.

I don't think that's what happened in this story.

[PatrickG]

Provided without context except to say that THIS seems to be continuing with the "creepy Reed" take.

http://images.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Jan07/covers/NEWAVNIL002_col.jpg

[Ian Boothby]

I see this for the last issue of Civil War.

Reed comes back from a secret trip he took in outer space. Turns out the Reed we've seen is really Skrull. Then we learn Tony was also a Skrull. And everyone else who's acted our of character, Skrull, Skrull, Skrull. Maybe one Dire Wraith and a couple of Space Phantoms too.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, it's not a bad way of eliminating the moral ambiguity - the 'who is right' issue.

Not that they haven't done that already....

[EdContradictory]

Man, everybody wants it to be Skrulls...

[Typo Lad]

I'm pulling for Dire Wraiths.

[Lester C.]

Maybe this is like the Devin Grayson situation in Nightwing. Maybe a lot of the content is editorially driven and Mark is just taking the heat from decisions he had no say in.

[PatrickG]

I see this for the last issue of Civil War.

Reed comes back from a secret trip he took in outer space. Turns out the Reed we've seen is really Skrull. Then we learn Tony was also a Skrull. And everyone else who's acted our of character, Skrull, Skrull, Skrull. Maybe one Dire Wraith and a couple of Space Phantoms too.

Your bordering very close to a story or two I've got saved up.

Needless to say, what if there were more Skrulls than even the Skrulls knew about? What if, on one given day, EVERYONE was a Skrull or a shapeshifter of some kind putting on an act, none of them even realizing that the impersonators are putting on acts to convince OTHER impersonators...?

[Typo Lad]

Maybe this is like the Devin Grayson situation in Nightwing. Maybe a lot of the content is editorially driven and Mark is just taking the heat from decisions he had no say in.
You sir, are a Dire Wraith apologist.

Your cell in the Negetive Zone awaits.

[Jerry Kraut]

I still think Sue was mocking Reed's overtly intellectual response (and the escapistic way he abides in it, the whole not visiting Johnny and so on) to what is essentialy an emotional problem.
I might be overanalyzing.

[Lester C.]

You sir, are a Dire Wraith apologist.

Your cell in the Negetive Zone awaits.
I never apologize on Mark's behalf on the account of the fact that he's a lying manipulating bastard that will say anything to increase the sales of his books. He has taken me in on several of his bullshit claims and will never have my respect again as a result of that fact. I think of him as the Emperor Palpatine of comics.That said he's one of the best writers of all time regardless of the fact that he is an asshole, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Typo Lad]

See, I guess that's where we differ. I haven't read anything by Miller that I've liked in ages. Loathed his Authority, thought Wanted was a masterbatory exercise, and Ultimates leaves me yawning.

[Alex L]

Hehe thanks!

You know, the one thing I was GOING to write when I first posted that ... well, and I got so worked up I forgot to actually write it ... is ... well ... WHY would Nick Fury help the anti-reggers? I mean, really ... it makes NO sense to me. This guy has arranged I dunno HOW many super-powered agents of SHIELD because he wanted heroes he could have under governmental control, has found out the ID's of many heroes ... Spidey, Thor, etc ... bought out 51% of Stark Industries stock in order to control that ... I mean, you'd think that he, of ALL people, who's spent most of his life working for the gov't and controlling heroes/making them work for him by coercing them by hook or by crook, in one way or another ... would be furiously PRO-reg ... but there he is working for the other side. The characterization is just 180 degrees away from where he should be. And he's just ONE of them. Don't get me started on why Battlestar is anti-reg.

It really makes NO sense to me. And the only answer we get is "Uhm ... wait til next year ... or maybe later for that answer..." I dunno.

But I DO like Civil War ... cuz, besides All-Star Batman and Robin, it gives me something to satirize!

It takes away his fun?

Less interesting to manipulate someone into following your orders when they are legally obligated to follow your orders...

[stealthwise]

That said he's one of the best writers of all time regardless of the fact that he is an asshole, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Go say that on the "Best writers/artists of all time" thread on the Community board. :D

Seriously, Millar's done some... interesting stuff, like Chosen, Wolverine: Enemy of the State, The Authority, Superman: Red Son, Ultimate X-Men, and The Ultimates, but often he swings for the fences. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it seems to fail miserably. He's also probably at his best when he's working on out of continuity stuff, because then he doesn't have to actually learn about how characters have worked for decades, and can just make it up as he goes along.

[Lester C.]

Go say that on the "Best writers/artists of all time" thread on the Community board. :D

Seriously, Millar's done some... interesting stuff, like Chosen, Wolverine: Enemy of the State, The Authority, Superman: Red Son, Ultimate X-Men, and The Ultimates, but often he swings for the fences. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it seems to fail miserably. He's also probably at his best when he's working on out of continuity stuff, because then he doesn't have to actually learn about how characters have worked for decades, and can just make it up as he goes along.
I just looked at that list and there are some mighty fine names and pictures on that thread. Not quite sure the names are in the right order, but it brought back many good memories. Thank you for suggesting that I go there.

[stealthwise]

I just looked at that list and there are some mighty fine names and pictures on that thread. Not quite sure the names are in the right order, but it brought back many good memories. Thank you for suggesting that I go there.

No problem. I'm shocked that both Tim Sale (shocked in a bad way) and Rob Liefeld (shocked in a good way) have yet to appear on either. I think that the last two artists will end up being Jack Kirby and Jim Lee.

The consensus for writers seems to be Morrison and Moore, though in what order I'm not sure.

[Pop Culture Corn]

Gail, did you listen to White Tiger podcast? It's hilarious.

http://www.marvel.com/rss/podcasts/Tamora_Pierce_talks_White_Tiger.mp3