Bush Administration used Religious Right (while mocking them)

[Crowley]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/14/60minutes/main2089778.shtml
A Loss Of Faith
Former White House Insider Tells Lesley Stahl Staffers Called Evangelicals "Nuts" And "Goofy"

CBS) David Kuo is an evangelical Christian and card-carrying member of the religious right, who got a job in the White House in the president’s Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. He thought it was a dream-come-true: a chance to work for a president whose vision about compassionate conservatism would be matched with sweeping legislation to help the poor.

But Kuo says the so-called compassion agenda has fallen short of its promise and he blames President Bush for that in his new book.

As correspondent Lesley Stahl reports, he also says the White House was a place that cynically used religion for political ends and that White House aides ridiculed the very Christian leaders who helped bring Mr. Bush to office.

In his book, Kuo wrote that White House staffers would roll their eyes at evangelicals, calling them "nuts" and "goofy."

Asked if that was really the attitude, Kuo tells Stahl, "Oh, absolutely. You name the important Christian leader and I have heard them mocked by serious people in serious places."

Specifically, Kuo says people in the White House political affairs office referred to Pat Robertson as "insane," Jerry Falwell as "ridiculous," and that James Dobson "had to be controlled." And President Bush, he writes, talked about his compassion agenda, but never really fought for it.

"The President of the United States promised he would be the leading lobbying on behalf of the poor. What better lobbyist could anybody get?" Kuo wonders.

What happened?

"The lobbyist didn’t follow through," he claims.

"What about 9/11?" Stahl asks. "All the priorities got turned about."

"I was there before 9/11. I know what happened before 9/11 … The trend before 9/11 was…president makes a big announcement and nothing happens," Kuo replies.

Kuo speaks as an insider. Even before he became the number two guy in the White House faith-based office, he had a long resume in the world of Christian conservatives.

Kuo says he took candidate Bush at his word during the 2000 campaign.

At the time, Bush proposed for the first time that he would spend $8 billion dollars on programs for the poor.

"I think it's one of the most important political speeches given in the last generation. I really do," says Kuo. "It laid out a whole new philosophy for Republicans."

After the election, to much fanfare, President Bush created the office of faith-based initiatives to increase funds to religious charities.

But Kuo says there were problems right off the bat. For one, he says the office dropped very quickly down the list of priorities.

Asked how much money finally went to them, Kuo says laughing, “Oh, in the first two years, first two years I think $60 million.”

"When you hold it up to a promise of $8 billion, I don't know how good I am at math, but I know that's less than one percent of a promise," says Kuo.

Part of the problem, he says, was indifference from "the base," the religious right. He took 60 Minutes to a convention of evangelical groups – his old stomping ground - and walked around the display booths, looking for any reference to the poor.

"You’ve got homosexuality in your kid’s school, and you’ve got human cloning, and partial birth abortion and divorce and stem cell," Kuo remarked. "Not a mention of the poor."
the rest at:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/14/60minutes/main2089778.shtml

and more here:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Olbermann-Kuo.mov

[PatrickG]

Huh. Scary if true.

[the4thpip]

I never had any doubt that this administration is only pro-power and pro-money. Everythig else is used as pawns.

[The Xenos]

I also think the poor guy who's the President is a pawn. I honestly think that W is a decent guy who unfortunatley doesn't realize what he's doing and how people are pulling his strings and leading him along.

[the4thpip]

I also think the poor guy who's the President is a pawn. I honestly think that W is a decent guy who unfortunatley doesn't realize what he's doing and how people are pulling his strings and leading him along.
Yeah, because his life pre-politics was so awe inspiring. Like the time he used his family's influence to keep him out of the 'Nam and then didn't even fullfill his duty at the national guard. Or when he became a drunk and a coke head. Or when he failed at all those business ventures.

Salt of the Earth, that man!

[PatrickG]

Pip:

I sincerely loathe the way this administration has conducted itself. However... Xenos may be right.

Bush may not be a saint. But everything you mentioned sound like acts of fear, confusion and desparation. All of which are qualities that SHOULD disqualify someone from leadership when put together, IMO, but I do feel compelled to defend the man somewhat AS a man and not a leader.

He could very well be a stubborn, bullheaded, confused, dangerous man taking advice from some evil people without being evil himself.

[PatrickG]

Let me add... I've heard and I believe from watching Bush that his life was a series of desparate moves.

Picture this:

You're born into a successful family. Your father is a bright man, versed in policy if not especially charismatic, who is capable of juggling things like international intelligence and espionage. You are perhaps fairly average. Maybe you have a learning disabillity or some psychological issues. Everyone expects you to make it big but everything keeps falling apart. You're lost. You turn to the bottle. You turn to drugs. Because YOU can't feel "normal".

Joe Shmoe can go manage an Applebee's making six figures and be fairly content. And while you know you can do that, everybody you know will label you a miserable abortion of a human being if you do something like that -- or at least, you feel like they'll label you that even if they tell you otherwise.

Then you find something in support groups and religion that enriches your life. You and your wife have a rennaissance. You feel like you're going somewhere. For the first time in your life, you have hope and you become convinced that the whole world needs a dose of the light you found. Soon, you become charged that you can make the world better.

Suddenly, powerful people who once wouldn't give you the time of day are calling you up. They're interested in you. And you feel that those powerful people may give you the chance to make the world better even as your life has gotten better.

People dog you about your past mis-steps but you know they're wrong; it's BECAUSE of your past that you can make the world better. You have a growing faction of supporters reaffirming this idea for you. You CAN'T be wrong. You KNOW in your heart that this all adds up to something and means something wonderful that you can give to the world.

And now, you're in a position to protect people. You can go after the man who hurt your father, who TRIED TO KILL your father and repay your father for all those years he sheltered and nourished you when you weren't able to BE somebody. You can provide for your family.

And when 9-11 happens, it just crystalizes things. The meandering phase of your life was caused by evil in the world. The people who wouldn't speak to you. The people who laughed at you. If the world was a good place, you would never feel unloved and you'd never need to worry about your family. No one would try to hurt your father. Your daughters wouldn't be tempted by the things that sidetracked your life.

Evil has a face and you're sure it's in the middle east. You BELIEVE it's ALL got to come down to the man who tried to kill your father.

Your father tries to talk you out of going to war but you KNOW he's just protecting you. People question your advisors. People say your friends are greedy or corrupt or manipulative but you don't believe that. These are people like you. They couldn't fake the care and concern that these people, your co-workers, seem to show for you.

No. The people who challenge you are cynics, their vision clouded by the darkness in the world. And if you hit hard enough and stay the course, you can rid the world of that evil. You can make the world safe and free and happy and prosperous. This is what you want. The world at large doesn't matter because that world turned its back on you, didn't see the potential in you. And the people you've surrounded yourself with, people who seem to show care and concern for you, tell you that you can do it... and that if you don't act bravely and decisively and strike at the evil in the world with all the brutal force you can muster, using ANY means necessary, there won't be a world left tomorrow.

It doesn't matter, of course, that you're being manipulated and lied to because you can't see that. Because deep down, you're an outsider who doesn't have faith in anyone who doesn't have faith in you. The people who are loyal to you are people who cannot be wrong and so you become their defender. You give them whatever they ask for. Because this is your one and only chance at ever having true happiness, the kind you're sure normal people have.

Failure is not an option. Not on anything. Even the smallest point. Concede nothing. Ask no one's permission. Fight to do it your way without compromise.

[Gail Simone]

This same thing is the vibe I get from Fox news and the various rightie pundits. You cannot respect someone you're making a chump out of. With Rush, I believe you can actually feel his loathing of the saps who adore him.

A pity.

Gail

[Evan Waters]

Specifically, Kuo says people in the White House political affairs office referred to Pat Robertson as "insane," Jerry Falwell as "ridiculous," and that James Dobson "had to be controlled."

Damn. I agree with the Bush administration.

[Noah Johnson]

I think it's unfair to say Dobson has to be "controlled".

It would be fair to say he has to be "smacked upside the head so hard he walks crooked."

[Dark Galaxy]

As correspondent Lesley Stahl reports, he also says the White House was a place that cynically used religion for political ends and that White House aides ridiculed the very Christian leaders who helped bring Mr. Bush to office.

This surprises me in no way, shape or form.

Power corrupts, and absolute powers corrupts absolutely.
Or so they say.

[titanfan]

The only semi-shocking thing about this is that it only took the evangelicals this long to realize they were being used?!?!? Hello, it was blatantly obvious to everyone else. If you look at Bush's history, prior to the 2000 election, he really did have more of a moderate background.

[Sabrinaset]

So is W becoming Ted Turner? :p

[Evan Waters]

I think it's unfair to say Dobson has to be "controlled".

It would be fair to say he has to be "smacked upside the head so hard he walks crooked."

Six of one, half a dozen of another...

[TomStillwell]

I also think the poor guy who's the President is a pawn. I honestly think that W is a decent guy who unfortunatley doesn't realize what he's doing and how people are pulling his strings and leading him along.

To Xenos and Patrick:

I don't believe any of that for a moment.

Bush, while not the sharpest tack in the box, knows how his world works. You aren't born into a family like that and not know how to take advantage of your standing.

The Republicans took George in hand and led him to this point. He couldn't have done it on his own but that doesn't mean he didn't know what was going on. He may be a puppet, but he's a willing puppet eager to cash in on whatever his role brings him.

[PatrickG]

So...

Vandal Savage is not a tuna sandwich?

[Lester C.]

Even if Bush comes out and says, " !@#$ the religious right you'll nothing but mu !@#$%^." So what? It's not as if the religious right are going to start to become Democrats unless Democrats abandon their views on subjects like Abortion.

What both parties should do is start focusing on the Hispanic vote. Have you seen the birth rate of Hispanics when compared to that of Blacks and Whites? It's insane, simply insane and that doesn't included the legal immigrants. The party that gets that vote, is the party that's going to get the future. Unless we switch to an Apartheid from of government, which you know isn't that inconceivable.

[Briareos]

Here's what he really said instead of what cbs cherry picked:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/160/story_16092.html

Here's a actual quote from Kuo

"I have deep respect, appreciation, and affection for the president. No one who knows him even a tiny bit doubts the sincerity and compassion of his heart. Likewise, the people around the president are good and caring people. I know this firsthand because I experienced it during a health crisis in my own life when their kindness was evident."

[Corrina]

Even if Bush comes out and says, " !@#$ the religious right you'll nothing but mu !@#$%^." So what? It's not as if the religious right are going to start to become Democrats unless Democrats abandon their views on subjects like Abortion.



But they won't come out to vote, either. The Republicans have gotten terrific voter turnout from the religious right and with all this, I think they're going to have trouble continuing to do that.

As strong as the Republicans seem, it is worth remembering that the Kerry/Bush election was fairly close in the popular vote. The religious right vote was definitely a big factor in Bush's second presidential win. Well, that and he was able to sell Kerry as a "crazy anti-war traitor from Massachusetts."

[Crowley]

Here's what he really said instead of what cbs cherry picked:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/160/story_16092.html

Here's a actual quote from Kuo
read the article and watch the show Bri...

you're making stuff up now. Kuo said alot of good things about the President during the interview... even so... he still condemns Rove.

[Briareos]

So he was lying when he said that he believed that Bush and the people in his administration cared about him?

[Crowley]

Not the point Bri...
but here's what the White House had to say recently about Kuo:
The White House calls Kuo’s book "ridiculous," and Kuo’s old boss, Jim Towey, who ran the faith based office until this past June says Kuo is "naïve and simplistic."


here are some good key points made by David Kuo:
"The President of the United States promised he would be the leading lobbying on behalf of the poor. What better lobbyist could anybody get?" Kuo wonders.

What happened?

"The lobbyist didn’t follow through," he claims.

"What about 9/11?" Stahl asks. "All the priorities got turned about."

"I was there before 9/11. I know what happened before 9/11 … The trend before 9/11 was…president makes a big announcement and nothing happens," Kuo replies.

At the time, Bush proposed for the first time that he would spend $8 billion dollars on programs for the poor.

"I think it's one of the most important political speeches given in the last generation. I really do," says Kuo. "It laid out a whole new philosophy for Republicans."

After the election, to much fanfare, President Bush created the office of faith-based initiatives to increase funds to religious charities.

But Kuo says there were problems right off the bat. For one, he says the office dropped very quickly down the list of priorities.

Asked how much money finally went to them, Kuo says laughing, “Oh, in the first two years, first two years I think $60 million.”

"When you hold it up to a promise of $8 billion, I don't know how good I am at math, but I know that's less than one percent of a promise," says Kuo.



"This message that has been sent out to Christians for a long time now: that Jesus came primarily for a political agenda, and recently primarily a right-wing political agenda - as if this culture war is a war for God. And it’s not a war for God, it’s a war for politics. And that’s a huge
difference,"

Asked if in retrospect this was morally wrong, Kuo says, "I feel like it was more spiritually wrong. You’re taking the sacred and you’re making it profane. You’re taking Jesus and reducing him to some precinct captain, to some get-out-the-vote guy."

Kuo believes they helped some Republicans win elections, but that didn’t translate into more money for religious charities.

[Screwtape]

Ol' George is an ignorant puppet and - while Jerry Fallwell is ridiculous, James Dobson frightening, and Pat Robertson demented - all wealthy, entitled politicians loathe the average joe who voted them into office. That's the reason Clinton was so successful: you could clearly tell the man had been tailgating before.

[shrike]

But they won't come out to vote, either. The Republicans have gotten terrific voter turnout from the religious right and with all this, I think they're going to have trouble continuing to do that.



I actually believe this will pass over the religious right like water off a duck... I'm sure it will be spun to say it never happened, and I also then bet that those people will buy the drivel they are fed.

[The Xenos]

Let me add... I've heard and I believe from watching Bush that his life was a series of desparate moves.

Picture this:

You're born into a successful family. Your father is a bright man, versed in policy if not especially charismatic, who is capable of juggling things like international intelligence and espionage. You are perhaps fairly average. Maybe you have a learning disabillity or some psychological issues. Everyone expects you to make it big but everything keeps falling apart. You're lost. You turn to the bottle. You turn to drugs. Because YOU can't feel "normal".

Joe Shmoe can go manage an Applebee's making six figures and be fairly content. And while you know you can do that, everybody you know will label you a miserable abortion of a human being if you do something like that -- or at least, you feel like they'll label you that even if they tell you otherwise.

Then you find something in support groups and religion that enriches your life. You and your wife have a rennaissance. You feel like you're going somewhere. For the first time in your life, you have hope and you become convinced that the whole world needs a dose of the light you found. Soon, you become charged that you can make the world better.

Suddenly, powerful people who once wouldn't give you the time of day are calling you up. They're interested in you. And you feel that those powerful people may give you the chance to make the world better even as your life has gotten better.

People dog you about your past mis-steps but you know they're wrong; it's BECAUSE of your past that you can make the world better. You have a growing faction of supporters reaffirming this idea for you. You CAN'T be wrong. You KNOW in your heart that this all adds up to something and means something wonderful that you can give to the world.

And now, you're in a position to protect people. You can go after the man who hurt your father, who TRIED TO KILL your father and repay your father for all those years he sheltered and nourished you when you weren't able to BE somebody. You can provide for your family.

And when 9-11 happens, it just crystalizes things. The meandering phase of your life was caused by evil in the world. The people who wouldn't speak to you. The people who laughed at you. If the world was a good place, you would never feel unloved and you'd never need to worry about your family. No one would try to hurt your father. Your daughters wouldn't be tempted by the things that sidetracked your life.

Evil has a face and you're sure it's in the middle east. You BELIEVE it's ALL got to come down to the man who tried to kill your father.

Your father tries to talk you out of going to war but you KNOW he's just protecting you. People question your advisors. People say your friends are greedy or corrupt or manipulative but you don't believe that. These are people like you. They couldn't fake the care and concern that these people, your co-workers, seem to show for you.

No. The people who challenge you are cynics, their vision clouded by the darkness in the world. And if you hit hard enough and stay the course, you can rid the world of that evil. You can make the world safe and free and happy and prosperous. This is what you want. The world at large doesn't matter because that world turned its back on you, didn't see the potential in you. And the people you've surrounded yourself with, people who seem to show care and concern for you, tell you that you can do it... and that if you don't act bravely and decisively and strike at the evil in the world with all the brutal force you can muster, using ANY means necessary, there won't be a world left tomorrow.

It doesn't matter, of course, that you're being manipulated and lied to because you can't see that. Because deep down, you're an outsider who doesn't have faith in anyone who doesn't have faith in you. The people who are loyal to you are people who cannot be wrong and so you become their defender. You give them whatever they ask for. Because this is your one and only chance at ever having true happiness, the kind you're sure normal people have.

Failure is not an option. Not on anything. Even the smallest point. Concede nothing. Ask no one's permission. Fight to do it your way without compromise.

Wait.. I lost you there. Is that how Bush came into power or the plot of Star Wars Episode II & III?

I kid. That's a pretty awesome theory. I think it's accurate. Can I prove it? Not really.

Though there was a really good Frontline ep (one I found online actually) called Frontline: "The War Behind Closed Doors - Bush's Iraq war policy". If you read between the lines even just a little you can come to the conclusion you made.

To Xenos and Patrick:

I don't believe any of that for a moment.

Bush, while not the sharpest tack in the box, knows how his world works. You aren't born into a family like that and not know how to take advantage of your standing.

The Republicans took George in hand and led him to this point. He couldn't have done it on his own but that doesn't mean he didn't know what was going on. He may be a puppet, but he's a willing puppet eager to cash in on whatever his role brings him.

Well, I'm not a strong supporter of that theory, but I'm also sick of Bush being villianized so much. It just reaks of left wing smear tactics and crap from radicals who have their head up their butt. Looking at facts and even the man himself, who's quite off the cuff, I don't think he's really as bad as many make him out to be.

He isn't Darth Vader even if he is rather aligned with the Sith. He still thinks he's a Jedi fighting the good fight. Which somewhat makes it sadder to me.

Acutally, you might as well put Bush up there as a religious right winger who got suckered by his administration. Though, I belive the man is on a much higher rung and far nicer than jerks like Fallwell and Robertson.

[Noah Johnson]

Looking at facts and even the man himself, who's quite off the cuff, I don't think he's really as bad as many make him out to be.

He believes in torturing innocent people.

What the fuck is YOUR standard?

[alextron]

People in Hollywood mock the rest of us all the time, their so smug. I hold no allusions that the film industry really cares what happens to people in the U.S. as long as they dole out the cash. So, as cynical as politics can be I won't believe everything I see or read either.

[Lester C.]

He believes in torturing innocent people.

What the fuck is YOUR standard?
Hey, so do I. Then again I'm in training to be a Sith Lord. What's his excuse?

[Noah Johnson]

People in Hollywood mock the rest of us all the time, their so smug. I hold no allusions that the film industry really cares what happens to people in the U.S. as long as they dole out the cash. So, as cynical as politics can be I won't believe everything I see or read either.


...


That post's just kinda wandering around looking for a conversation to be part of, ain't it?

[the4thpip]

Well, I'm not a strong supporter of that theory, but I'm also sick of Bush being villianized so much. It just reaks of left wing smear tactics and crap from radicals who have their head up their butt. Looking at facts and even the man himself, who's quite off the cuff, I don't think he's really as bad as many make him out to be.

He isn't Darth Vader even if he is rather aligned with the Sith. He still thinks he's a Jedi fighting the good fight. Which somewhat makes it sadder to me.

Acutally, you might as well put Bush up there as a religious right winger who got suckered by his administration. Though, I belive the man is on a much higher rung and far nicer than jerks like Fallwell and Robertson.
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he is a guy they'd rather have a beer with than John Kerry.
(apologies to Usual Suspects)

[PatrickG]

He believes in torturing innocent people.

What the fuck is YOUR standard?


That IS wrong.

However... I think Bush has been brought around to the point where he can't see that.

I don't see Bush as getting any sadistic pleasure from that idea. I think he has been swayed to a position by people who DO get sadistic pleasure from that but who have convinced him that doing something wrong to someone else is the only choice.

I think he's honestly at the (illogical) point where he thinks that if we don't torture these people, it will somehow lead to millions of deaths.

I mean, killing is wrong but people do it in defense of their families. I don't think they should... And yet, I'm sure there are people who HAVE killed in defense of their families who believe it IS wrong and would do it again.

The problem is that Bush believes that torture somehow saves lives and he's been fed some kind of argument for it that he isn't sharing with US.

The problem with "National Security" or "Homeland Security" is that it creates a scenario where people in power can privately spread and believe arguments that don't stand up to public scrutiny or international law.

1) My take on Iraq is this:

Bush was paranoid about Iraq anyway. One of his first priorities in office was to be prepared for war against them. And I think somebody -- whether or not Bush was aware -- had the bright idea to use Iraq as a diversionary tactic. But not a POLITICAL diversionary tactic.

I think SOMEBODY realized that Al Queda was NOT tied to Saddam Hussein. But was also terrified of the U.S. fighting a homefront war. So the idea was to find a place in the middle east to create some chaos and lure Al Queda's attention.

In other words, I think we wanted to make Iraq a hotbed of terrorism to keep the terrorists from attacking domestic targets.

In MMORPG terms, we ninjaed a country and now we're forcing that country to tank for us, to draw Al Queda's aggro.

Which is sick. But I don't think it's about oil or religion or conventional imperialism. I think it's about making our soldiers a target instead of our civilians by sending them somewhere with a big target on their backs.

And that's why the Bush Administration feels that they've effectively combatted domestic terrorism. Because they created a terrorist target in the middle east and I think that the plan was for Iraq to become a mess... at least on some level.

And I think the HOPE was that Bush could declare victory and that Americans wouldn't notice what a mess it was... when in fact, it was PLANNED to be a mess.

2) My take on torture:

I think the Bush Administration KNOWS that torture does not provide valuable intelligence and KNOWS that it's wrong.

However, I think they want to torture people not for the sake of the people being tortured.

Torture isn't going to disuade terrorists.

I think they want to scare kids who haven't signed up to become terrorists yet.

So, basically, I think we're torturing people for information we know they can't give us in order to freak out their five year old kids into being terrified of terrorism.

The torture isn't for the terrorists; it's for their friends and family.

We know that killing them doesn't scare the family because they can take comfort in their loved one being rewarded as a martyr.

I think that if we followed the thinking behind this and didn't have international law, the ideal scenario would be to psychologically scar and mutilate a few thousand people and send them home as a message.

3) Conclusion:

I think we're practicing terrorism.

[TomStillwell]

Patrick, with all due respect, I think you're woefully naive on the subject of George Bush.

You want to believe Bush is just some moron being misled into thinking he's doing the right thing. That he's just some hapless shill unaware of his actions.

I'm not buying it. Bush is an adult. He's responsible for his own actions whether they originate with him or not. You mistake not caring for not knowing.

[PatrickG]

I'm not saying he isn't WHOLLY responsible.

I think he should be tried at a War Crimes Tribunal and found guilty.

However, I don't accept that he sees moral fault with his actions and I think it would be a disservice and a danger to this country if there were not parties within his administration who were probed even more extensively and punished more severely.

[MatthewC]

People in Hollywood mock the rest of us all the time, their so smug. I hold no allusions that the film industry really cares what happens to people in the U.S. as long as they dole out the cash. So, as cynical as politics can be I won't believe everything I see or read either.

Complaining that the film industry doesn't care what happens to the people in the US as long as they dole out the cash strikes me as making about as much sense as complaining that the potato-farming industry doesn't care about people so long as they keep buying potatoes.

It's true, but completely irrelevant.

[EdContradictory]

People in Hollywood mock the rest of us all the time, their so smug. I hold no allusions that the film industry really cares what happens to people in the U.S. as long as they dole out the cash. So, as cynical as politics can be I won't believe everything I see or read either.
Maybe they are just mocking you for misusing the words "their" and "allusions".

[the4thpip]

Patrick, with all due respect, I think you're woefully naive on the subject of George Bush.

You want to believe Bush is just some moron being misled into thinking he's doing the right thing. That he's just some hapless shill unaware of his actions.

I'm not buying it. Bush is an adult. He's responsible for his own actions whether they originate with him or not. You mistake not caring for not knowing.
Also, there was a clip on the internet a couple of years ago of Bush during a debate or campaign event when he ran for Governor of Texas.

He was coherent. :eek: He spoke quickly and well. He was, by all accounts, a decent to great public speaker back then.

Edit: I found it here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRhhtkRp8aM)

So I see 2 possibilities here:

1. Drugs, a stroke or early onset dementia have diminished his cognitive abilities.

2. The "dumb guy act" is exactly that, an act to make him more likable.

[shrike]

2. The "dumb guy act" is exactly that, an act to make him more likable.

Okay, I REALLY loathe discussing my personal political stance but you cannot... for one instant... make me believe that his stupidity is an act.

NO ONE is that good of an actor.

I feel he is manipulated by a number of people because he is not the brightest wattage in the bulb section, but only because they understand things better than him. I _am_ pretty sure he is QUITE aware of how these things he does affects others, but I honestly don't think he has the capacity, on his own, for any personal long term plans or goals.

[the4thpip]

Okay, I REALLY loathe discussing my personal political stance but you cannot... for one instant... make me believe that his stupidity is an act.

NO ONE is that good of an actor.

I feel he is manipulated by a number of people because he is not the brightest wattage in the bulb section, but only because they understand things better than him. I _am_ pretty sure he is QUITE aware of how these things he does affects others, but I honestly don't think he has the capacity, on his own, for any personal long term plans or goals.
Have you looked at the clip?

Also, I give two options. I think option 1 is much more likely, but I would not completely rule out either one.

[TomStillwell]

I think #2 is the more logical option.

Let's face, most of America is pretty dumb. We're way behind where we should be education-wise. Your average voter has maybe a high school diploma. What would appeal more to these voters, a candidate appearing to be just like them or someone with an Ivy League background?

Whatever you believe about Bush, you can't deny he's great at looking like a regular joe when it counts. Clinton was great at this too. George Sr., not so much.

Kerry was almost gift wrapped that election but still lost it partly because he lacked any appeal to the average voter. He wasn't likable and he didn't seem like anyone could relate to him.

When Bush gets caught swearing to Blair people can relate to that. We talk shit about other people to one another all the time.

[shrike]

Have you looked at the clip?

Also, I give two options. I think option 1 is much more likely, but I would not completely rule out either one.

It has to be a clone or a hologram or something.

My brain cannot accept certain things... alien space forms, time travel and a coherent, intelligent President Bush.

[Ed Cunard]

So is W becoming Ted Turner? :p

That's not fair, Sabrina. I mean, I hate the president as much as any dyed-in-the-faux-wool liberal, but that's just low. Sure, he's arguably been one of the worst presidents of all time, but the man never sunk so low as to release a colorized version of Casablanca.

[Crowley]

Advantage: Ed

[Ed Cunard]

Advantage: Ed

No, seriously, you're misreading me. There was little sarcasm there, but for that act of violation, Ted Turner is dead to me.

[shrike]

Ted Turner is dead to me.

Odd.

Are you really Jane Fonda?

[Ed Cunard]

Odd.

Are you really Jane Fonda?

Nope--just snobby!

[Jeff Brady]

Nope--just snobby!

And more attractive.

[Crowley]

No, seriously, you're misreading me. There was little sarcasm there, but for that act of violation, Ted Turner is dead to me.
and to me too... didn't he also color Citizen Kane?

[Ed Cunard]

and to me too... didn't he also color Citizen Kane?

If he has, I haven't seen it anywhere. Thankfully.

But, then again, he does have Turner Classic Movies (my favorite TV channel), so maybe I was a little harsh.

[Spike-X]

Let's face, most of America is pretty dumb. We're way behind where we should be education-wise. Your average voter has maybe a high school diploma. What would appeal more to these voters, a candidate appearing to be just like them or someone with an Ivy League background?


If people are "threatened" by anyone who can speak in coherent sentences, they don't deserve to be allowed to vote.

[Dark Galaxy]

If people are "threatened" by anyone who can speak in coherent sentences, they don't deserve to be allowed to vote.


Nah. That Kerry guy was way to "thinky" and "bookish" to be able to understand the average American. You need to be brought up in a wealthy and powerful family and never want for anything to understand the average citizen.

[the4thpip]

Kerry was almost gift wrapped that election but still lost it partly because he lacked any appeal to the average voter. He wasn't likable and he didn't seem like anyone could relate to him.

To me, that was always a bit of a Republican Talking point that the media ate up and ran with.

When Kerry ordered Green Tea on a campaign stop and they didn't have it, it could have been a story about a recent cancer survivor taking on a huge effort that doesn't let him do the healthy things he should be doing. Instead Candy Crowley turned "green tea moment" into an idiom for Kerry's supposed elitism.

[Crowley]

and for the record... no relation to Candy Crowley...

[Lester C.]

and for the record... no relation to Candy Crowley...
What about the old wizen wizard that had sex with a goddess and a teenager in Alan Moore's Promethia?

[Crowley]

possibly...

[MacQuarrie]

But they won't come out to vote, either. The Republicans have gotten terrific voter turnout from the religious right and with all this, I think they're going to have trouble continuing to do that.

As strong as the Republicans seem, it is worth remembering that the Kerry/Bush election was fairly close in the popular vote. The religious right vote was definitely a big factor in Bush's second presidential win. Well, that and he was able to sell Kerry as a "crazy anti-war traitor from Massachusetts."
Remember, not since Reagan has the religious right voted "for" anything except the "Contract with America." For the last 20 years, Christian conservatives turn up at the voting booth to vote against the people they loathe. They grudgingly elect people they barely trust and don't much like, just to keep people they hate from getting in.

Prior to the '80s, a lot of Christians didn't vote at all. Many churches taught that taking part in the political process was wrong. It was seen as "rendering unto Caeser" the things that are God's, or getting distracted from eternal things by worrying about worldly things. The church as political entity in America is a fairly recent phenomenon, and one that may be running out.

[MacQuarrie]

Nah. That Kerry guy was way to "thinky" and "bookish" to be able to understand the average American. You need to be brought up in a wealthy and powerful family and never want for anything to understand the average citizen.
That wasn't it. It was that he practically oozed contempt for the common people. "Don't you know who I AM?" was practially his motto.

He seemed very similar to Nelson Rockefeller in that regard.

[Cam63]

Patrick, with all due respect, I think you're woefully naive on the subject of George Bush.

You want to believe Bush is just some moron being misled into thinking he's doing the right thing. That he's just some hapless shill unaware of his actions.

I'm not buying it. Bush is an adult. He's responsible for his own actions whether they originate with him or not. You mistake not caring for not knowing.

I did read he was once trapped in a turtleneck sweater for two days.

[TomStillwell]

If people are "threatened" by anyone who can speak in coherent sentences, they don't deserve to be allowed to vote.

I totally agree.

America shouldn't hold elections. We just need to find the smartest, most capable men in the country and make them cage match to the death. Survival of the fitest, baby.

[Ed Cunard]

I totally agree.

America shouldn't hold elections. We just need to find the smartest, most capable men in the country and make them cage match to the death. Survival of the fitest, baby.

Can they also be cute, and can it be a cage pudding death match?

Because, I mean... if we're going that far, we might as well go just a wee bit further.

[Sabrinaset]

Can they also be cute, and can it be a cage pudding death match?

Because, I mean... if we're going that far, we might as well go just a wee bit further.


Time for me to announce my candidacy for President!

My platform? *rips open blouse*

[Cam63]

All hail President Bree !

[shrike]

Time for me to announce my candidacy for President!

My platform? *rips open blouse*

Ok, if there isn't a t shirt under that blouse I believe I just barfed in my mouth a little bit.

That said, two things are going to hold you back.

1) Your age.

2) I'm _pretty_ sure that the US, as progressive as they may be in some areas, is not quite yet ready for a conservative, nudist lesbian as its next Comander In Chief. Vivid Video Fantasy Series notwithstanding.

[TomStillwell]

Let me amend my statement.

The most capable and smart people.

[Spike-X]

Remember, not since Reagan has the religious right voted "for" anything except the "Contract with America." For the last 20 years, Christian conservatives turn up at the voting booth to vote against the people they loathe. They grudgingly elect people they barely trust and don't much like, just to keep people they hate from getting in.

Sounds a lot like Democrat voters.

[Samurai]

Ok, if there isn't a t shirt under that blouse I believe I just barfed in my mouth a little bit.

That said, two things are going to hold you back.

1) Your age.

2) I'm _pretty_ sure that the US, as progressive as they may be in some areas, is not quite yet ready for a conservative, nudist lesbian as its next Comander In Chief. Vivid Video Fantasy Series notwithstanding.
Speaking for the Conservatives of America, if her political positions are right, YES WE ARE! ;)

(Just so long as she isn't one of those butch, thick-necked, tree-trunk-legged, hairy, flannel-wearin' type o' lesbian... ;) )

[the4thpip]

(Just so long as she isn't one of those butch, thick-necked, tree-trunk-legged, hairy, flannel-wearin' type o' lesbian... ;) )
Like yo momma? ;)