Was Bucky's return a good idea?

[Mister Mets]

The big question here is "Was the return of Bucky in Ed Brubaker's Captain America" a good idea?

I've noticed that there's some controversy about the subject, so I'm curious to see how the board will vote.

[Mo S.]

I can understand readers have more than a few reservations about the concept, but, IMO, it was very well-done.

[Lanowar]

It is one of those things that when you hear you go "WHAT How could they just bring him back it's stupid"

But when you actually read it your just "Wow this is great stuff" it's one of those examples of how to do stuff correctly. Unlike Jason Todd whose reapperance was chalked up to Superboy Prime punching walls of reality. Bit pathetic in comparrison really.

[1WEBHEAD]

Yeah in the begining everyone hated the idea, but Brubaker worked his magic and executed the idea perfectly.No regrets on that.I'm glad they brought Bucky back and put more depth into him.

[Syzygy]

I can understand readers have more than a few reservations about the concept, but, IMO, it was very well-done.

The question isn't "was it well done" but "should it have been done".

No, it should not have been done (i.e., was not a good idea).

Certainly, it's possible for a skilled writer to construct a well-written story where, for example, Batman's parents are revealed to have been alive all along, or Superman's older brother--complete with Kryptonian family--arrives on Earth. But each of these occurrences would change an essential element of their character, personality, motivation, and core identity. It changes an essential aspect of their personal myth.

Batman isn't Batman unless his parents died horribly. Superman is Superman unless he's the Last Son of Krypton.

Cap's losing Bucky was an essential part of his personal myth.

So, however skillfully it was done, it should not have been done.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Expletive Deleted]

Thing is, Bucky wasn't essential to Cap's character and hadn't been for years. Uncle Ben with Spider-Man? Yeah. Batman with his parents? Yeah. Cap with Bucky? Less so. Cap isn't motivated by tragedy so much as he's motivated by idealism and a sense of duty.

I'd say it was a good idea since it was well executed. If it'd been poorly executed, it would've sucked.

[drwho]

AS a character if he was given his own series what would really differentiate himself from some one like the Punisher? Do we know what type of personality he has yet?

[Expletive Deleted]

What about him is similar, aside from using guns?

[drwho]

Dont know, but what is different? i guess I cant tell what his personality is like yet.

[Expletive Deleted]

Well, he's not motivated by the same things, he's operating in a different genre, and he's got an entirely different modus operandi and skill set.

You might as well ask how Cable is different from Punisher.

[Joe Acro]

I don't like the idea. Even after reading the unfinished story, I don't like. Mind you, the story itself is wonderful, possibly the best thing written in 616 continuity right now. But bringing back Bucky feels wrong to me. For me, it seems to embody the end of death in comics...

[Expletive Deleted]

Pfft. That ship sailed in 1986.

[Joe Acro]

Pfft. That ship sailed in 1986.
Was that when Jean came back?

[Cayman]

It could've been a bad idea, but it was well-done and gave us a cool new character in Winter Soldier.

[Siddon]

It was done well and was a great Cap epic... I just wish the issues afterwards were just as good.

[Syzygy]

Bucky hasn't been an integral part of Cap's story since Stan was writing him. Regardless, there's nothing sacred about continuity. If someone can get a good story out of it while still remaining true to the character, what's the problem?

The problem is that Stan Lee's original idea for Marvel's comic-book characters was that they were like us, but with powers. They loved, lost, bickered, and cried.

Now, there's no longer loss.

When Grant Morrisson was plotting out his run on X-Men, he originally wanted to use Moira MacTaggert (scientist) and Colossus (Strength, vusuals). When he heard they were deceased he chose Beast and a "diamond-bodied" Frost instead because, "The X-Men, like us, know loss."

It used to be that Captain America, like us, knew loss too. No longer.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Joe Acro]

When he heard they were deceased he chose Beast and a "diamond-bodied" Frost instead because, "The X-Men, like us, know loss."
How does a diamond-bodied Emma show her knowing loss?

[Kid Bushido]

The thing some people semm to be failing to get is that he was PRESUMABLY dead. There wasn't any real record or evidence of his death. Cap's last memory before being frozen is the plane exploding, he didn't even get to see Bucky's corpse. So Brubaker saw that and did a great story. For me it was a good idea because it added new plots and stories.

[Young Avenger]

The problem is that Stan Lee's original idea for Marvel's comic-book characters was that they were like us, but with powers. They loved, lost, bickered, and cried.

Now, there's no longer loss.

When Grant Morrisson was plotting out his run on X-Men, he originally wanted to use Moira MacTaggert (scientist) and Colossus (Strength, vusuals). When he heard they were deceased he chose Beast and a "diamond-bodied" Frost instead because, "The X-Men, like us, know loss."

It used to be that Captain America, like us, knew loss too. No longer.

Peace,
Syzygy

Then you should know that Bucky's death is a retcon. Bucky survived in the original stories and continued being Cap's sidekick into the 50s. When Stan Lee brought back Cap in 64 he killed off Bucky because he didn't like the idea of kid sidekicks. Like Kid Bushido said, Bucky was PRESUMABLY dead. His corpse was never found. The way I see it Bucky's return is way overdue.

[garin]

It used to be that Captain America, like us, knew loss too. No longer.I don't think Cap needs a dead Bucky to know loss. The guy was in ice for fifty years, everyone he knew is either elderly or dead.

[Expletive Deleted]

It used to be that Captain America, like us, knew loss too. No longer.Eh, Cap's got more than enough loss left.

[Syzygy]

Then you should know that Bucky's death is a retcon. Bucky survived in the original stories and continued being Cap's sidekick into the 50s. When Stan Lee brought back Cap in 64 he killed off Bucky because he didn't like the idea of kid sidekicks. Like Kid Bushido said, Bucky was PRESUMABLY dead. His corpse was never found. The way I see it Bucky's return is way overdue.

Since Cap's return in '64, Bucky has been dead, and the fifties Cap, officially, a different one. Cap has been mourning him all that time. Stan had the right idea in killing Bucky. It was a loss to temper and humanize him.

Modern Marvel's cap was the Stan Lee Cap. And for the '60's+ Cap, it was part of his myth. We all know that the 50's Cap--with Bucky--was not "our" Cap. We've known it since Stan brought Cap back. There's no real reason to change that, and the elements of it, certainly not merely for a story. There are plenty of other stories to be told without an unnecessary--and even gratuitous--resurrection.

IMO, it was done for shock value, and as a sales tactic. Brubaker used a similar shock tactic in Deadly Genesis.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

How does a diamond-bodied Emma show her knowing loss?

Grant decided to keep Moira and Colossus dead because "the X-Men, like us, know loss."

So he chose replacements: Dr. Beast for Dr. Moira, and Diamond Frost for Steel Colossus.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

I don't like the idea. Even after reading the unfinished story, I don't like. Mind you, the story itself is wonderful, possibly the best thing written in 616 continuity right now. But bringing back Bucky feels wrong to me. For me, it seems to embody the end of death in comics...

Agree. Some characters should just stay dead. Some ongoing stories should just move forward, not backwards.

Peace,
Syzygy

[mattbib]

Grant decided to keep Moira and Colossus dead because "the X-Men, like us, know loss."

So he chose replacements: Beast for Moira, and Diamond Frost for Steel Colossus.
True, Grant chose replacements, but I'm fairly certain that Marvel, not Morrison, decided to keep Moira and Colossus dead. Given Marvel's whole "dead means dead" policy at the time.

[Syzygy]

True, Grant chose replacements, but I'm fairly certain that Marvel, not Morrison, decided to keep Moira and Colossus dead. Given Marvel's whole "dead means dead" policy at the time.

In my Hardcover edition of New X-Men, there's a copy of Grant's notes for the series, and written in the margins is "Colossus and Moira should stay dead. The X-Men, like us, know loss." My understanding was that that's Grant's note, and his decision....

Seems I was wrong. It was Mark Powers who wrote the comment in the margins.

Nevertheless, the point is well taken. Here is what Powers wrote:



Colossus and Moira both died recently...if we're to get away from the elements that are "static/septic", they have to stay dead. The X-Men, like us, know loss.

I agree, with the comments, whether they come from Grant or Mark.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Jake V]

In my Hardcover edition of New X-Men, there's a copy of Grant's notes for the series, and written in the margins is "Colossus and Moira should stay dead. The X-Men, like us, know loss." My understanding was that that's Grant's note, and his decision....


Peace,
Syzygy
It was Mike Powers' note. Grant just wrote the actual text.

But Bucky suddenly being alive now doesn't negate the loss he felt for the past 10 years of continuity. Besides, he still feels the loss of every single other person he knew prior to going off to war.

[Syzygy]

It was Mike Powers' note. Grant just wrote the actual text.

But Bucky suddenly being alive now doesn't negate the loss he felt for the past 10 years of continuity. Besides, he still feels the loss of every single other person he knew prior to going off to war.

Yes, I finished editing my post at 11:31...the same exact time you posted yours.

Nevertheless, it's the idea that's important. I agree with it.

And yes, it DOES negate Cap's sense of loss, because of all those lost, Bucky was most important to him.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Deus ex Chris]

And yes, it DOES negate Cap's sense of loss, because of all those lost, Bucky was most important to him.
If he's lost others, then he still knows loss.

[Jake V]

If he's lost others, then he still knows loss.
Hey screw you! His entire family dying while he was at the bottom of the ocean isn't nearly as important as the "death" of his teenage sidekick! Get with the program!

[Agentum]

Absolutly pointless as nobody remember the character or care for him.

[StoneGold]

The problem is that Stan Lee's original idea for Marvel's comic-book characters was that they were like us, but with powers. They loved, lost, bickered, and cried.


Frankly, that's crap. It's heroes with feet of clay, not heroes like us. Because I'm not an atomic scientist, I'm not a billionaire industrialist playboy, I'm not a brilliant physician (take your pick), I'm not an astronaut, and I think you're getting the point here. My college roommate isn't trying to kill me, the devil isn't constantly resurrecting my dead ex-girlfriend (oops, there goes the whole loss thing), and I'm not constantly being cured and uncured of my horrible skin condition.

And probably the most poignant issue, none of the characters Stan killed off were dead long enough to bring back and be suitably interesting by the time he stopped most of his writing.

[Syzygy]

Frankly, that's crap. It's heroes with feet of clay, not heroes like us.

Feet of clay = like us.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

Hey screw you! His entire family dying while he was at the bottom of the ocean isn't nearly as important as the "death" of his teenage sidekick! Get with the program!

Bucky was like a son to him. He was responsible for Bucky.

Imagine how you'd feel if, while you were watching out for your son, nephew, or kid brother, he got killed. A loss like that creates a special wound, a lingering guilt.

In mythology studies (i.e., Joeseph Campbell), this kind of wound is called a "Fisher King" wound, a wound that stays with you your whole life and never heals.

And I find your remark--"screw you"--offensive. Even though it was ostensibly directed at Deus Ex Chris in a facetious fashion, it's really directed against me in a serious one. Don't you know any other way to express yourself?

Sarcasm and mockery are the lowest forms of wit.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Agentum]

Frankly, that's crap. It's heroes with feet of clay, not heroes like us. Because I'm not an atomic scientist, I'm not a billionaire industrialist playboy, I'm not a brilliant physician (take your pick), I'm not an astronaut, and I think you're getting the point here. My college roommate isn't trying to kill me, the devil isn't constantly resurrecting my dead ex-girlfriend (oops, there goes the whole loss thing), and I'm not constantly being cured and uncured of my horrible skin condition.

.
It's more like soap opera characters, they experience 1000 times as much things we do:D

I would think that if the chracters was ordinary peoples with ordinary lives nobody would like to read it.

[Lanowar]

Guys the impression I'm getting here is that regardless of how much we're going to say The Winter Solider arc was good it won't change the mind of those who think it's a bad call.

I agree with Brubaker saying that Bucky's death was the typical Stan Lee thing that all his characters needed some form of tradgey in there life to become a better person.

It made sense, though ok it was'nt at first a good move but how the series is panning out the Bucky thing adds a whole new dimension to Cap's character. I'm hoping he'll start popping up in New Avengers and Civil War as perhaps someone sent to take cap down.

[Syzygy]

If he's lost others, then he still knows loss.

Here’s another way to look at it:

In our world, the real world, when we’re at a funeral and that coffin is lowered into the ground, we know that its permanent. The sense of loss, aching in our gut, is real. Our loved one is gone, and is never coming back. Ever. All we’re left with is the bitter tears, which must be confronted if we’re to move on.

But in the Marvel Universe, with every additional resurrection that occurs, there’s less need confront loss--to know loss--in all its bitter permanence.

Why should Cap mourn anyone at all? If Bucky can come back, surely, say, Scott Lang, Jack of Hearts, or (ahem) Hawkeye, can come back?

After Bucky’s resurrection, when Cap’s watching another friend’s coffin go into the ground, he doesn’t have to confront the loss--to know loss, aching in the gut--because he knows there’s a very real chance they’ll be back.

Hey, why not? Bucky, Hawkeye...whoever.

The idea behind Marvel characters is that, whatever their powers, they’re like us in their essential humaness. They love, fight, bicker, lose their temper, and mourn. That is, they know loss.

No need for Cap to mourn anybody with a sense of awful, despairing permanence that is a psychological confrontation with death. He just tells himself, “Well, there’s a very real, very good chance that they’ll be back! And he strolls away from the funeral, whistling a happy tune.

He’s not “like us” in his essential humaness anymore. We have to confront death. He doesn’t.

The ultimate result of this process is exemplified by Siryn in Peter David’s X-Factor. Her father, Banshee, is dead, but why should she worry? He’ll be back, won’t he? No need for mourning, for heart-rending, soul-shattering grief. No need for despair at the passing of a parent. After all...he’ll be back.

And the funny thing is...he probably will.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

Guys the impression I'm getting here is that regardless of how much we're going to say The Winter Solider arc was good it won't change the mind of those who think it's a bad call.

Mind you, I'm not saying it was poorly written or drawn. Brubaker is a good writer. There's nothing wrong with his techinque. I just thought it was a bad idea whether handled well or poorly.

As it happens, of course he handled it well. He's a good writer.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Joe Acro]

No need for Cap to mourn anybody with a sense of awful, despairing permanence that is a psychological confrontation with death. He just tells himself, “Well, there’s a very real, very good chance that they’ll be back! And he strolls away from the funeral, whistling a happy tune.

He’s not “like us” in his essential humaness anymore. We have to confront death. He doesn’t.
So you're saying that through the return of Bucky he could become like Peter when Mary Jane "died?"

[Mister Mets]

Since I started the thread, I should include my opinion.

I think Bucky's return was a good idea, and it was executed well.
The most important reason is that we got a great story out of it. I've read "Man Without a Country," the first two Essential volumes, and all of Stern/ Byrne, and Brubaker's run is the best I've seen in the regular Captain America tales.
It introduces a character with a great sense of history to the Marvel Universe, which only serves to enrich it.
Before he came back, Brubaker had to find something to make the character interesting, and the idea that Bucky was Cap's ruthlessly efficient advance scout (and 19 at the end of the war) worked.

And back to Avengers #4
We never saw Bucky's corpse.
The idea that he's still alive has been toyed with before, even by Lee.

[Sandy Hausler]

The big question here is "Was the return of Bucky in Ed Brubaker's Captain America" a good idea?

I've noticed that there's some controversy about the subject, so I'm curious to see how the board will vote.

I'd say bad idea, but not a bad story. But I also think that the story stretched credibility even more than usual in a comics story, and it did some retconning that I didn't like.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Thing is, Bucky wasn't essential to Cap's character and hadn't been for years. Uncle Ben with Spider-Man? Yeah. Batman with his parents? Yeah. Cap with Bucky? Less so. Cap isn't motivated by tragedy so much as he's motivated by idealism and a sense of duty.

I'd say it was a good idea since it was well executed. If it'd been poorly executed, it would've sucked.

How often is Uncle Ben mentioned in Spider-Man. Once in a while.

How often has Bucky been mentioned in Captain America? Once in a while. In the earlier days (60s- early 70s), he was mentioned a lot more. Probably a lot more than Uncle Ben ever was.

Cap is a to some extent a man out of time and Bucky was a very important part of the time he came from, so I think that his death was important to his mythos.

On the other hand, when a character hangs around for forty years, stuff that was important in the beginning becomes less important as time goes on. Spider-Man is not Spider-Man because of Uncle Ben anymore. He's Spider-Man because he's a good guy with super powers. He doesn't often flash back to the burgler incident anymore.

But, of course, Uncle Ben is still important to his mythos. It just isn't as evident anymore.

The same is true with Cap and Bucky, in my opinion.

But what's done is done and there's no use crying about it. Brubaker brought Bucky back. Now let's see what he does with him.

Sandy Hausler

[Shellhead]

Hey screw you! His entire family dying while he was at the bottom of the ocean isn't nearly as important as the "death" of his teenage sidekick! Get with the program!

In all seriousness, I don't know the names of any of Steve's family members. So yes, the "death" of his teenage sidekick is more important, at least from this reader's standpoint.

[Alan2099]

The whole thing was a bad idea and we just ended up with a new Nomad out of the deal.

Former Bucky kept in supsended animation and turned into a long haired tough as njails gun totating vigilante? That's who Jack Monroe was.

Plus the storyline completley changes the aspect of who Bucky was. I don't care what the writers say s to try to justify things, nobody in their right mind has ever thought of Bucky as being a cold hearted killing machine.

Bucky has been dead since Stan Lee was first starting the marvel universe. Everybody knew Bucky was dead and nobody wanted him back. The story bringing him back wasn't just shock it was schlock.

The whole ideas was dumb.

[darkhawk76]

it was an interesting idea, but I'm not glad that he's back

I'll give props to Ed he did a very good story, I just wish Bucky had stayed dead though

[Jmacq1]

Plus the storyline completely changes the aspect of who Bucky was. I don't care what the writers say s to try to justify things, nobody in their right mind has ever thought of Bucky as being a cold hearted killing machine.

"No one in their right mind?"

Funny, I'm not currently diagnosed with any psychological disorders, nor have I ever been, and I think the story's the best Cap's ever been, and I've been reading Cap for quite a while.

The thing is, Bucky wasn't the "cold-hearted killing machine" until he got brainwashed by the soviets. Until then, he was a soldier, doing what (some) soldiers did during wartime. There's no evidence he was "cold hearted" about it. He just did it. Like the rest of the soldiers.

You know what -I- think is insane? The thought that they'd send a 13 year old boy to the front lines of World War II in the first place. Then expecting him not to kill anyone is foolishness of the highest order. Brubaker's retcons are not only sensible, but practically necessary to prevent Cap himself from being a grade-A idiot responsible for endangering the life of a child through most of World War II.

Bucky was mostly a cipher anyway. Quite frankly, Brubaker's run has made Bucky more engaging as a character than he's ever been. Why? Because now he -is- a character, as opposed to some beatific ghost of the past.

[DDM]

Was that when Jean came back?

Yes, Jean Grey came back in 1986 in Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286 when a mysterious cocoon was found in Jamaica Bay where the original Starcore space shuttle crashed & the first Phoenix rose from the water in Uncanny X-Men #101. Jean's resurrection was important for the original X-Men to form X-Factor; however, I believe Jim Shooter lacked the vision of what Jean's resurrection would do long term damage for both Marvel Girl & Phoenix down the road.

[Joe Acro]

But even after Jean came back, resurrection was still pretty rare in comics. I think the trend towards bringing characters back from the dead started more recently. I just can't determine where it began...

[DDM]

But even after Jean came back, resurrection was still pretty rare in comics. I think the trend towards bringing characters back from the dead started more recently. I just can't determine where it began...

Wonder Man, who died in Avengers #9, came back in Avengers #151 years later.

[Cayman]

Having Bucky be alive but turned into a killing machine for decades is arguably a greater loss than Bucky just being dead.

[Alan2099]

"No one in their right mind?"

Funny, I'm not currently diagnosed with any psychological disorders, nor have I ever been, and I think the story's the best Cap's ever been, and I've been reading Cap for quite a while.
Prior to that run, have you ever thought of Bucky as a cold hearted killing machine?



You know what -I- think is insane? The thought that they'd send a 13 year old boy to the front lines of World War II in the first place. Then expecting him not to kill anyone is foolishness of the highest order. Brubaker's retcons are not only sensible, but practically necessary to prevent Cap himself from being a grade-A idiot responsible for endangering the life of a child through most of World War II.
You know what I think is insane? retconning fun lighthearted stories because they aren't realistic or grim enough. It seems to be a major problem these days both in Marvel and DC. People can't accept that stories were meant to be entertaining and not in your face real (and by "real" they always seem to mean "as depressing and/or violent as possible.")

The retcons AREN'T sensible because nobody was ever looking at those stories wanting them to make sense. It's the whole round pegs and square holes bit again. When you try to force something into being something it's not, the whole thing suffers.

Tell me, prior to that story arc, how many people can you think of that ever question why Bucky was in the War to begin with? And how many of those felt it was a major plot point that needed to be touched up and not just some Golden Age sillyness?

It's just a story that nobody wanted told that dirties up a character that had a defined role in the marvel Universe, even if it was a bit silly. Now he's just another dime a dozen violent guy with guns and a mysterious past. He's even got a metal arm for crying out loud. We've reached 90s Image territory here and peopel think this is a good thing?



Bucky was mostly a cipher anyway. Quite frankly, Brubaker's run has made Bucky more engaging as a character than he's ever been. Why? Because now he -is- a character, as opposed to some beatific ghost of the past.
yeah, he's a character alright. A character that completley contradicts every apperance or reference to the character up until this storyline and one that goes completley against the way everyone thinks of Bucky.

[Joe Acro]

Wonder Man, who died in Avengers #9, came back in Avengers #151 years later.Sure, Wonder Man came back, but so did Xavier. And neither them nor Jean caused this trend in resurrections.



It's just a story that nobody wanted told that dirties up a character that had a defined role in the marvel Universe, even if it was a bit silly. Now he's just another dime a dozen violent guy with guns and a mysterious past. He's even got a metal arm for crying out loud. We've reached 90s Image territory here and peopel think this is a good thing?

This comment suddenly made me think we now have a new Cable sans mental powers. It's a guy displaced in time with guns, fighting skills, and a metal arm!

[Jmacq1]

Prior to that run, have you ever thought of Bucky as a cold hearted killing machine?



You know what I think is insane? retconning fun lighthearted stories because they aren't realistic or grim enough. It seems to be a major problem these days both in Marvel and DC. People can't accept that stories were meant to be entertaining and not in your face real (and by "real" they always seem to mean "as depressing and/or violent as possible.")

The retcons AREN'T sensible because nobody was ever looking at those stories wanting them to make sense. It's the whole round pegs and square holes bit again. When you try to force something into being something it's not, the whole thing suffers.

Tell me, prior to that story arc, how many people can you think of that ever question why Bucky was in the War to begin with? And how many of those felt it was a major plot point that needed to be touched up and not just some Golden Age sillyness?

It's just a story that nobody wanted told that dirties up a character that had a defined role in the marvel Universe, even if it was a bit silly. Now he's just another dime a dozen violent guy with guns and a mysterious past. He's even got a metal arm for crying out loud. We've reached 90s Image territory here and peopel think this is a good thing?


yeah, he's a character alright. A character that completley contradicts every apperance or reference to the character up until this storyline and one that goes completley against the way everyone thinks of Bucky.

I'm guessing you haven't read much Golden Age Cap. As I recall, Bucky wielded a pretty mean Tommy back then. If you do it with a smirk and some snappy patter, does that mean you're not "cold hearted" anymore? Or that you're not a killer? Sorry...elements were there, even if you don't want to see them.

And no, I didn't think Bucky was a cold-hearted killer, and guess what? I don't think he is now either. What he did as a brainwashed Russian killing machine doesn't really count. I don't have a problem with soldiers that kill. Clearly, you're looking for "stupid but fun" when some people might look for a little bit more. I know as soon as I was old enough to understand the implications, I sure as hell wondered why they'd send Bucky to war. And I seem to recall that issue was brought up more than once in the comics since, too.

But hey, don't like it, don't read it (though I support your right to express your opinion on it). It's pretty clear we'll have to agree to disagree, and it'll waste both of ours' time to try to convince either of us otherwise. Most of the time I've found I tend to agree with you on things...just not this time, I guess.

[Jmacq1]

This comment suddenly made me think we now have a new Cable sans mental powers. It's a guy displaced in time with guns, fighting skills, and a metal arm!

Funny enough, Cable eventually developed into a character that a lot of people like. Heck, people liked him to begin with, given how many copies of his comics sold back in the day.

Difference being that Bucky's starting out more engaging and better-drawn than Cable did.

[Magneto Rocks]

As has been said a thousand times:

To have Bucky return is not in iteself a good idea.

With the masterful writing and superb scripts we've had, it was the greatest idea in Cap. History :P

[Alan2099]

I'm guessing you haven't read much Golden Age Cap. As I recall, Bucky wielded a pretty mean Tommy back then. If you do it with a smirk and some snappy patter, does that mean you're not "cold hearted" anymore? Or that you're not a killer? Sorry...elements were there, even if you don't want to see them.
Elements are there, but when you stop to pick up the elements and ignore the general conception of the character, it fals apart.

Spider-man hit his wife. Thor used to make robots. Captain America smoked on a regular basis.

All of these are things people ignore because the details conflict with the big picture.

back then EVERYBODy killed nazis. That's what they were there for. They were the original Stromtroopers. I don't have a problem with anybody killing Nazis. The problem I have with it is how it was written. Bucky came across as some uber black ops Metal gear wanna be super soldier and was written up like he was better than Cap at his job.

[Shellhead]

As has been said a thousand times:

To have Bucky return is not in iteself a good idea.

With the masterful writing and superb scripts we've had, it was the greatest idea in Cap. History :P

Time will tell if it was worth it. If they sacrificed a key part of Cap's background for just one story, it wasn't worth it. If the Winter Soldier becomes a Jack Monroe-retread, it wasn't worth it. But if we keep getting great Winter Soldier stories from time to time, then it was worth it. Cap could certainly use another great rogue, as we all get tired of Red Skull from time to time.

[StoneGold]

Feet of clay = like us.

Peace,
Syzygy
Yeah, except you want "like us" to mean all kinds of crazy stuff can happen, except the dead rising from the grave. Which is crap. You're creating your own personal definition of what you want, then saying it's what Stan intended. Believe me, I can see grampa coming back a lot easier than me becoming a Norse thunder god to fight aliens.

[StoneGold]

As has been said a thousand times:

To have Bucky return is not in iteself a good idea.

With the masterful writing and superb scripts we've had, it was the greatest idea in Cap. History :P
What is the quote? Give people what they want, but in a way that they don't know that they want it? This was the opposite. Give them what they don't want, but in a way that has them begging for more.

[Joe Acro]

Spider-man hit his wife. Thor used to make robots. Captain America smoked on a regular basis.

I have no such recollection of these things. Explain yourself.

[StoneGold]

I have no such recollection of these things. Explain yourself.
Spidey smacked MJ once when he was all dark and spooky in the early to mid 90s. Don Blake once helped build an android in one of the earlier Thor stories, I think a Larry Lieber penned one (LIEBER!!!!!!). Cap smoked a pipe back in the 40s.

[DMike]

I have no such recollection of these things. Explain yourself.
Spidey smacked MJ once when he was all dark and spooky in the early to mid 90s.

Just to clarify, Peter accidentally hit his wife while she came up behind him and his Spider-sense went off while he was having a heated argument with Ben Reilly. (Just to clear that up before we get another round of "90s Spider-Man = wife-beater = 90s BAD!")

On Topic: Bucky being retconned as never dying doesn't bother me in the least since his death was a retcon itself. Besides, most of the people who complain about death in comics not being permanent end up being the same ones who complain that comics are trying too hard to be realistic and all that, which just makes the whole argument hypocritical and circular anyway. Because people flying and shooting lasers from their eyes or knowing 30 different martial arts while wielding magical weapons doesn't break suspension of disbelief, but coming back from the dead or surviving death-like situations apparently does.

[Leebenhouse]

Funny story for you hulk fans out there reading this.

Remember Agamemnon from the Pantheon? Who was eternally a teenager thanks to secret genetic alteration by the Troyjans. Peter David was hinting that he was Bucky, and that he merely faked his death when the plane exploded. Would have worked too, since Bucky was around the concentration camps, and the timing would have coincided with his meeting Achillies.

Kind of regrettable nobody remembers this. And from reading the Brubaker interview in the Marvel Spotlight publication, he was basically treating Bucky as a sort of special forces trained teenager, about 16 at the beginning of the war, so he was 20-21 at the wars end. And Brubaker, from his own experience as an army brat, characterizes Bucky as a rough and tumble kind of army brat, the kind of kid that would have actually picked on Steve Rogers had he met him before he became Cap. After all, he'd have had to have been tough to try and lie about his age to join the army, like was said in some versions of Bucky's origin.

I dont think Brubaker's interpretation of bucky is too bad, since, special forces at that time really meant troops trained to sneak up and slit throats and do some sabotage, not the myraid training that special forces experience today. And hell, to be the super-soldier's partner, he'd have had to have been extensively trained.

[geordiesteve]

Yes, because it was done well and with good taste and didn't pee all over previous mentions of Bucky. Wasn't keen on the idea, but then I read it and really enjoyed it. Jason Todd on the other hand........

[Sandy Hausler]

Just to clarify, Peter accidentally hit his wife while she came up behind him and his Spider-sense went off while he was having a heated argument with Ben Reilly. (Just to clear that up before we get another round of "90s Spider-Man = wife-beater = 90s BAD!")

On Topic: Bucky being retconned as never dying doesn't bother me in the least since his death was a retcon itself. Besides, most of the people who complain about death in comics not being permanent end up being the same ones who complain that comics are trying too hard to be realistic and all that, which just makes the whole argument hypocritical and circular anyway. Because people flying and shooting lasers from their eyes or knowing 30 different martial arts while wielding magical weapons doesn't break suspension of disbelief, but coming back from the dead or surviving death-like situations apparently does.

Brubaker retconned his origin as well.

Sandy Hausler

[Jeff-E]

I really like the new Bucky/Winter Soldier. Bucky was "alive" and "died" long before I was ever even thought of, so I had no special bond, or fondness of the character, I know who he was but honestly in 20+ years of comic reading I have never read an original Bucky reprint story, out side of the occasional flash back. So I have no problem with Bucky's return, and to boot it gave us a interesting new character... The Winter Soldier.

[Shellhead]

Bucky was mostly a cipher anyway. Quite frankly, Brubaker's run has made Bucky more engaging as a character than he's ever been. Why? Because now he -is- a character, as opposed to some beatific ghost of the past.

I haven't read any golden age comics featuring Bucky (and Cap), but I was a fan of the original Invaders series in the 70's. Bucky was in every issue, and it lasted for over three years. There was one particularly interesting storyline that even crossed over into Marvel Premiere, when Red Skull captured and brainwashed all of the Invaders... except Bucky, who he ignored as a powerless kid. In response, Bucky mobilized a group of independent heroes fighting crime in America as a new team called the Liberty Legion, just to battle the now-evil Invaders and the Red Skull.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Because people flying and shooting lasers from their eyes or knowing 30 different martial arts while wielding magical weapons doesn't break suspension of disbelief, but coming back from the dead or surviving death-like situations apparently does.
The former doesn't damage narrative truth and emotional verisimilitude, the latter does. Believing that a man can fly is the essence of the superhero genre. Believing that any character can come back from the dead at any time disconnects us from this fictional world.

[Shellhead]

Besides, most of the people who complain about death in comics not being permanent end up being the same ones who complain that comics are trying too hard to be realistic and all that, which just makes the whole argument hypocritical and circular anyway. Because people flying and shooting lasers from their eyes or knowing 30 different martial arts while wielding magical weapons doesn't break suspension of disbelief, but coming back from the dead or surviving death-like situations apparently does.

It's not about suspension of disbelief. When too many "dead" characters are brought back to life in comics, then death has truly lost its sting. At that point, it's difficult to get readers to care anymore. Who cares if the hero is in danger? If he's at all popular, he will be brought back to life anyway. When danger isn't danger anymore, the fight scenes become little more than slapstick comedy that isn't actually funny.

[CaptainCanada]

It's been a great story so far.

[phantom1592]

I would say No, it wasn't a good idea. He should have stayed dead. It was a good story, but I don't see it "adding" enough to Cap to justify weaking the Dead rule.

For the longest time the only guaranteed DEAD characters were, Uncle Ben, Robin II, and Bucky. Look where we stand now ;)

[StoneGold]

It's not about suspension of disbelief. When too many "dead" characters are brought back to life in comics, then death has truly lost its sting. At that point, it's difficult to get readers to care anymore. Who cares if the hero is in danger? If he's at all popular, he will be brought back to life anyway. When danger isn't danger anymore, the fight scenes become little more than slapstick comedy that isn't actually funny.
Except that's a fallacy, because if the character is popular, there's not much of a threat of them dying at all.

[Sandy Hausler]

Except that's a fallacy, because if the character is popular, there's not much of a threat of them dying at all.

Really, the point of a super hero story is not whether the hero wins, but how he (or she) does.

Sandy Hausler

[TheDrizzt]

Just to clarify, Peter accidentally hit his wife while she came up behind him and his Spider-sense went off while he was having a heated argument with Ben Reilly. (Just to clear that up before we get another round of "90s Spider-Man = wife-beater = 90s BAD!")
Point of order: that was actually a retcon. The original intent of him smacking MJ was to tarnish the character so the fans would have no choice but to accept Reilly as the One True Spider-Man. When that idea flopped, the "accident" retcon was invented to allow Parker back under the mask.

BTW, the Winter Soldier plot is a very well-written story that's derailed by the fact it's main idea is a bad one and that it rectons Bucky into a killer.

[Max]

Put me down as a yes.

Although I typically dont like it when a dead character is brought back, but this was done quite well.

I have never read a Cap comic prior to Brubaker. So I have no history with Bucky or any of the retconning that may have went down.

[Rich L]

It could have been truly, truly awful - but in actuality it's been handled much better than I thought possible.

The MU has gained a great new character in the Winter Soldier - and don't forget, Cap still has guilt. Now its not over Bucky's death but the fact that he survived and what he was turned into.

[alextron]

The fact that they seemed to be doing the same thing at the exact same time in Batman made the idea awkward.

[kenjeffrey]

I don't think they should have done it, but they have made a damn good story out of it so far.

[Ed Brubaker]

I don't have a problem with anybody killing Nazis. The problem I have with it is how it was written. Bucky came across as some uber black ops Metal gear wanna be super soldier and was written up like he was better than Cap at his job.

Actually, all of the things Bucky did in issue 5 were taken from a documentary I saw on History Channel or somewhere about British SAS training from WW2. I just gave him the training as it seemed like he'd have to work alongside a Super-Soldier.

[StoneGold]

Point of order: that was actually a retcon. The original intent of him smacking MJ was to tarnish the character so the fans would have no choice but to accept Reilly as the One True Spider-Man. When that idea flopped, the "accident" retcon was invented to allow Parker back under the mask.

BTW, the Winter Soldier plot is a very well-written story that's derailed by the fact it's main idea is a bad one and that it rectons Bucky into a killer.
Or un-retconning him as a killer, as it were, since Bucky did his share of killing in the original comics.

[FrogMan]

I was really hoping the Winter Soldier was gonna end up being NFL SuperPro.

[static]

before i actually read the story i would 100% have said hell no...after reading it ??? Winter solider is easily my favorite "new" character in the last 5 years....cant wait for the marvel legends fig...:)

[lightning]

On paper, it sounds like a really stupid idea, but it has been executed well. If I were in charge, I probably wouldn't have done it, but what's done is done, and like I said, it's been carried off well, so I don't mind.

[static]

having Bucky kill is no retcon...look at those early Cap comics...in the golden age there was no prob with a hero killing a bad guy...that and the fact that its war...you see bucky tearing across a battle field with a machine gun, spraying bulletts all over an advancing regiment of german soliders and you dont think anyone got killed huh?

[malephoenix]

I haven't read the whole thread, but my answer isn't available from the two choices:

If you read the book and have enjoyed the story and it makes sense, then yes, it may have been a good idea.

If you don't read the book, like myself, then it sure doesn't sound like a good idea at all.




(I like Brubaker's work, but just hearing about this development kinda sucks.)

[Mister Mets]

I haven't read the whole thread, but my answer isn't available from the two choices:

If you read the book and have enjoyed the story and it makes sense, then yes, it may have been a good idea.

If you don't read the book, like myself, then it sure doesn't sound like a good idea at all.




(I like Brubaker's work, but just hearing about this development kinda sucks.)
Fortunately there's more to Brubaker's run than this development (which he does do very well.)
I do highly recommend his entire run in trade form.
Both are available for a decent price on amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/103-4900610-3495026?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Captain+America&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
Just keep in mind that both volumes are available in hardcover, and trade form.

[Kirk G]

I agree. You're trying to pass judgement on a major development that has been in development through the last two years of detailed story development. I URGE you to pick up the trades or the hardbound and follow the progress of this wonderfully crafted story that is STILL unfolding...

[estee]

He was brought back very well...not heavy handed at all. Great job.

[Captain Shady]

Thing is, Bucky wasn't essential to Cap's character and hadn't been for years. Uncle Ben with Spider-Man? Yeah. Batman with his parents? Yeah. Cap with Bucky? Less so. Cap isn't motivated by tragedy so much as he's motivated by idealism and a sense of duty.


Agreed. Bucky is only relevant to his character when he considered taking on partners or mentoring youth. Clearly he was over it, despite the inevitable and repetitive interior monologue vacillations, based on how many subsequent partners he took on. Those vacillations got old pretty quickly because he always came to the same conclusion. Now, if Nomad, Rick Jones, Falcon even, D-Man all also kicked the bucket in action at his side, it would define his character. As it stands, this is something that happened before he was frozen in time. An interesting take now would be for cap to add a teen as his sidekick and have him take it between the eyes. "So what if Bucky didn't die! Why didn't I learn the lesson from his fake death!"

Cap's character is America's ideals, and a man out of time, even moreso American's better ideals from a better time struggling with current America.

Bucky's death is sentimental only to fanboys, as for the character himself, his actions indicated he moved forward a long time ago.

[static]

bucky never even died in a proper comic...he died in a flashback ...it was never the definining aspect of cap...the man out of time and the american ideal were...WINTER SOLIDER ROCKS !

[Charagon]

The question isn't "was it well done" but "should it have been done".

No, it should not have been done (i.e., was not a good idea).

Certainly, it's possible for a skilled writer to construct a well-written story where, for example, Batman's parents are revealed to have been alive all along, or Superman's older brother--complete with Kryptonian family--arrives on Earth. But each of these occurrences would change an essential element of their character, personality, motivation, and core identity. It changes an essential aspect of their personal myth.

Batman isn't Batman unless his parents died horribly. Superman is Superman unless he's the Last Son of Krypton.

Cap's losing Bucky was an essential part of his personal myth.

So, however skillfully it was done, it should not have been done.

Peace,
Syzygy


This is the absolute best answer in this thread.

[Person Man]

bucky never even died in a proper comic...he died in a flashback ...it was never the definining aspect of cap...the man out of time and the american ideal were.

Bingo. Frankly, it's a damned good story which gave us, in a sense, a new character altogether. Well-written retcons are fine with me - I'm not a continuity nerd, and that's exactly what Bucky's death was anyway, a retcon.

I enjoyed the story immensely. It put Steve through the ringer and showed what he was all about. It's not the loss - he feels that everybody counts on him, and he needs to live up to all of that as Captain America. Hell, the flashbacks show that he knew loss even when Bucky was around, if you wish to play THAT card.

With that being said, why did Bucky have to be tied to Wolverine? Why does everybody have to be tied to Wolverine?

[Bloodstrike]

I reckon Bucky should stay DEAD. Marvel is getting to a be joke bringing Dead Heroes & Villians back from the DEAD. They do anything to Get Sales for their Books. DC Comics are doing the same thing. I like to see all the Dear Departed Heroes & Villians come back from being Dead, but come on they bring em back and give the Characters a complete Overhaul and them they sort of die out again in the books because of lack of fans.

So Yeah Once Dead they should stay Dead. :evilangry

[Person Man]

Is that better than deciding to retcon a living character as being dead, though? Or giving us The Sentry? We didn't get a "yellow fear monster," we got an excellent story. Isn't that why we read comics, for a good story?

[Bloodstrike]

Thats True! we all read Comics for a good Storyline, But why bring Cap's Sidekick back only to kill him off again later down the track when the Book gets boring and the Powers to Be decide that the title is going no where and they decide to have a Major Storyline involve killing Bucky to boost sale's.

[Person Man]

Because it makes a good story now and because good writers should not live in fear of the bad ones. Why ever create any character then? Some Avengers writer could knock them off. Hell, even good writers kill off characters. But we've been given, through a retcon which reversed a retcon (Stan Lee's or not), a character who can go in several different directions, a conflicted character who works on a human level and thus, unlike The Sentry, can actually go somewhere in a story.

Sure, some hack could kill Bucky for cheap thrills, but a good writer might put him on the Avengers and play off the tension involved in that. It opens up possibilities, for good and for bad, but right now the story we have is a hell of a read. In my opinion, anyway, that's what counts.

And the one road which has not been brought up - pains are taken in the story to establish that the weilder of the Cosmic Cube will not get entirely what he wants "like the jokes about the man who found the magic lantern." We can probably assume that this guy truly is Bucky, but there is likely to be some sort of retribution headed Cap's way. I hope it's not something cheap, like a quick re-killing, but I think it's a fallacy to just assume it will be.

[DDM]

Because it makes a good story now and because good writers should not live in fear of the bad ones. Why ever create any character then? Some Avengers writer could knock them off. Hell, even good writers kill off characters. But we've been given, through a retcon which reversed a retcon (Stan Lee's or not), a character who can go in several different directions, a conflicted character who works on a human level and thus, unlike The Sentry, can actually go somewhere in a story.

Sure, some hack could kill Bucky for cheap thrills, but a good writer might put him on the Avengers and play off the tension involved in that. It opens up possibilities, for good and for bad, but right now the story we have is a hell of a read. In my opinion, anyway, that's what counts.

And the one road which has not been brought up - pains are taken in the story to establish that the weilder of the Cosmic Cube will not get entirely what he wants "like the jokes about the man who found the magic lantern." We can probably assume that this guy truly is Bucky, but there is likely to be some sort of retribution headed Cap's way. I hope it's not something cheap, like a quick re-killing, but I think it's a fallacy to just assume it will be.


Although it may be a good story now, it can still have damaging, unforseen consequences down the road. Jean Grey's resurrection in Fantastic Four #286 is a good story; likewise, all of the original X-Men as X-Factor from X-Factor #1-70. But Marvel started to turn the worm on Jean's resurrection as Marvel Girl when she became Phoenix, again, in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4. Over time, Jean's Phoenix & Marvel Girl stories have become convoluted stories. Jean's dead. No, she's not. It's just a mess.

Bucky could be heading in a similar direction...

[StoneGold]

Thats True! we all read Comics for a good Storyline, But why bring Cap's Sidekick back only to kill him off again later down the track when the Book gets boring and the Powers to Be decide that the title is going no where and they decide to have a Major Storyline involve killing Bucky to boost sale's.
So, we're going to complain about a story that hasn't happened, and possibly never will?

[Bloodstrike]

So, we're going to complain about a story that hasn't happened, and possibly never will?

Dude i have seen it all before with Marvel. They don't give a **** about Fanboys all they think about is the Sale's. If they put Bucky in a Limited Series i reckon it won't even hit the Previews 100 chart spot. Bucky was a Ok Character in his time with Cap in the WWII, but put him into the books of today what are you gonna get a Character that alot of New Readers won't give a **** about and so he will end up as a Support cast Character and die out again. Been Collecting Comics for 20 years seen it all before happen.

[Firemane]

I could see Bucky as the new Captain America, I mean he is more a man out of time now then Steve is now.But more then likely I see Head of Shield in his furture.

[Young Avenger]

Although it may be a good story now, it can still have damaging, unforseen consequences down the road. Jean Grey's resurrection in Fantastic Four #286 is a good story; likewise, all of the original X-Men as X-Factor from X-Factor #1-70. But Marvel started to turn the worm on Jean's resurrection as Marvel Girl when she became Phoenix, again, in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4. Over time, Jean's Phoenix & Marvel Girl stories have become convoluted stories. Jean's dead. No, she's not. It's just a mess.

Bucky could be heading in a similar direction...

I don't see Bucky having this problem. For one he never truly died (according to the new retcons). And Unless Bucky becomes possessed by a cosmic entity the likelihood of Bucky having a convoluted history like the Phoenix is low.

[StoneGold]

I doubt they'll go the new Cap route. They've done that before. Granted, it was like 15 years ago, but there's enough market research data on how well that particular gambit works over the last decade or so. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Green Lantern... it just doesn't work with your primary characters. OK, yes, it worked for Flash, but that took a couple of years to actually catch on, and was with a character "destined" to take over the role from the beginning.


You don't kill off Cap in the middle of the best run he's had in ages.

[Alan2099]

Winter Soldier really doesn't strike me as an original charactr like some people are trying to say.

He's just the new Nomad under a different name.

[DDM]

I don't see Bucky having this problem. For one he never truly died (according to the new retcons). And Unless Bucky becomes possessed by a cosmic entity the likelihood of Bucky having a convoluted history like the Phoenix is low.

Again, Bucky's resurrection is alot like Jean Grey's return. In the Phoenix retcon, Jean never died since she never became Phoenix. For her resurrection to work, Marvel needed to keep Marvel Girl separate from Phoenix. But Marvel dropped the ball when Marvel Girl became Phoenix again in 1994. It was a slow transformation at first. Jean was simply Phoenix in name then over time she began to manifest the Phoenix Effect.

Bucky's legacy will eventually become a convoluted mess. Worse, Marvel tarnished a perfectly good character who did not need to be resurrected.

[MadroxTMMan]

I think bringing back a relatively minor character like Bucky makes it harder for fans to suspend their disbelief. Who can invest in a universe where no death has any significance? And really, if not to be absorbed into a believable fantasy for a while, why do any of us read comics?

For example, one of my faves is Hawkeye. He's dead. For the moment. And he will most certainly be back. I'd like for him to be back, but really, the moment he is, everything that came in the wake of his death feels irrelevant, and seeing him in peril going forward will have zero dramatic tension. After all, if he gets killed again, it just takes one hair-brained plot to resurrect him once more.

[Sandy Hausler]

I think bringing back a relatively minor character like Bucky makes it harder for fans to suspend their disbelief. Who can invest in a universe where no death has any significance? And really, if not to be absorbed into a believable fantasy for a while, why do any of us read comics?

For example, one of my faves is Hawkeye. He's dead. For the moment. And he will most certainly be back. I'd like for him to be back, but really, the moment he is, everything that came in the wake of his death feels irrelevant, and seeing him in peril going forward will have zero dramatic tension. After all, if he gets killed again, it just takes one hair-brained plot to resurrect him once more.

What exactly came in the wake of his death? Not much. Heck, was there even a memorial service? (There may have been, but I don't recall where.) And given the manner of his death, it always appeared that he hadn't REALLY died.

Sandy Hausler.

[StoneGold]

I think bringing back a relatively minor character like Bucky makes it harder for fans to suspend their disbelief.
Apparently you, since you're named after a character who died of the Legacy Virus.


Seriously, people been pulling out that old chestnut for ages. And guess what? You're still here.

[DDM]

Apparently you, since you're named after a character who died of the Legacy Virus.


Seriously, people been pulling out that old chestnut for ages. And guess what? You're still here.

But the comic book market is a shadow of its former self. Therefore, no, a lot of people have not returned to comic books. And it's going to have to take more than stunts to get people back & stay. Good, timeless, lasting stories would be a start. However, given the current editorial climate, it is going to take years to have the readership that was in comics before they left.

Bucky's return may be a good story, but will it damage Captain America's story in the long run? It might. It might not.

[StoneGold]

But the comic book market is a shadow of its former self. Therefore, no, a lot of people have not returned to comic books.
And that has everything to do with suspension of disbelief, as opposed to rising costs, a gazillion alternate forms of entertainment, the direct market taking over the industry, etc.

If people stopped tuning in because people were coming back from the grave, soap operas would have been canceled years ago. Have nothing to do with comics? It has about as much to do with it as lower numbers than 1986 have to do with people coming back from the grave or not.

[Kirk G]

I still say there is good mileage to be milked from this.
There has been NOTHING presented in the Winter Soldier storyline that contradicts something I have been positing since we keep reviewing Bucky's apparant demise on the drone plane in WWII.

EVERY retelling of the story shows cap calling for Bucky to let go, that the plane is boobytrapped. The most recent version show Bucky calling that he can't, that he's caught and can't get free.
MUCH of Cap's angst has been that Bucky died and that he couldn't save him.

I suggest that what REALLY happened, is that Cap was telling Bucky that he HAD TO HANG ON... THAT IT WAS HIS DUTY...TO SAVE LONDON...ETC. And that what cap has been going through all these years is not only survivor's guilt (now removed with Bucky's survival), but also a mental block due to his guilt over ORDERING Bucky to stay on.

What happens when Bucky and Cap finally get together and Bucky blurts out that it's all Cap's fault that he lost an arm... that it was really Cap who almost got him killed... and Cap finally has to deal with the guilt that he has blocked from his mind all these years. He has mis-remembered the sequence to protect his mind from the guilt of ordering Bucky to his supposed death!

I maintain there is a gold-mine of material now available instead of Stan Lee's endless angst over the death of his partner.

Comments?

[StoneGold]

I still say there is good mileage to be milked from this.
There has been NOTHING presented in the Winter Soldier storyline that contradicts something I have been positing since we keep reviewing Bucky's apparant demise on the drone plane in WWII.

EVERY retelling of the story shows cap calling for Bucky to let go, that the plane is boobytrapped. The most recent version show Bucky calling that he can't, that he's caught and can't get free.
MUCH of Cap's angst has been that Bucky died and that he couldn't save him.

I suggest that what REALLY happened, is that Cap was telling Bucky that he HAD TO HANG ON... THAT IT WAS HIS DUTY...TO SAVE LONDON...ETC. And that what cap has been going through all these years is not only survivor's guilt (now removed with Bucky's survival), but also a mental block due to his guilt over ORDERING Bucky to stay on.

What happens when Bucky and Cap finally get together and Bucky blurts out that it's all Cap's fault that he lost an arm... that it was really Cap who almost got him killed... and Cap finally has to deal with the guilt that he has blocked from his mind all these years. He has mis-remembered the sequence to protect his mind from the guilt of ordering Bucky to his supposed death!

I maintain there is a gold-mine of material now available instead of Stan Lee's endless angst over the death of his partner.

Comments?
I dunno, that seems a bit too overdone for my tastes. There's enough right now for Cap to feel guilty about as it is with Bucky just being alive. I don't think you really need to milk it further.

[Taskmaster]

As much as I've been enjoying the story I don't think it should have been done. Bucky and Uncle Ben were the only people who died and stayed dead and now they are both back to an extent, I didn't agree with "Dead means Dead" in some cases, but how can we trust Joey Q if he can't even keep Bucky in the ground?

[DDM]

bucky never even died in a proper comic...he died in a flashback ...it was never the definining aspect of cap...the man out of time and the american ideal were...WINTER SOLIDER ROCKS !

Using your logic, the Champions never broke up because it happened in a flashback (Spectacular Spider-Man #16-17)! Frankie Raye never became the Herald of Galactus as Nova because the story happened in a flashback (Fantastic Four #244)! Jean Grey's telepathy never surfaced as a child because it happened in with a flashback of a flashback (Bizarre Adventures #27)! Attuma never turned Phoenix & Sara Grey into water-breathers because it happened in a flashback (Bizarre Adventures #27)! A flashback is just as substantial as an actual real time story; it's just a different way to tell the said story.

[Person Man]

Yeah, except there had been a Bucky who was alive past that point and suddenly that was another Bucky entirely. Surely Stan Lee did not feel retconning should get in the way of telling a good story! It's a Ben Reilly-level plotdevice, really. This isn't a flashback - it's a retcon. He retconned a retcon. If this one's wrong, why not the first?

[Kirk G]

I dunno, that seems a bit too overdone for my tastes. There's enough right now for Cap to feel guilty about as it is with Bucky just being alive. I don't think you really need to milk it further.

Oh, I agree. Ed's got plenty of grist for his mill right now.
I'm not suggesting that this be revealed next issue....
Only pointing out that there is nothing in the original Stan Lee stories (retcon, whatever) nor in subsequent stories that contradicts the possibility that Cap still doesn't want to remember what really happened...
And IF it is revealed that this is the root of his guilt complex, then his motivation for both versions of Bucky's "demise" (both Stan Lee's blown to smithereens, and, Ed Brubaker's died-but-was-recovered and revived in suspended annimation update) is still valid and workable...:rolleyes:

[Hrist]

So, this is an interesting thread five years later.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Wow. Compare this to the 'Bring Bucky Back' thread after FI #3 and there's a pretty big difference. I think that poll had around 85% yeses.

[satchmo the dragon]

Buck's rebirth could have sucked but they made him a cool communist assassin character. I could live with despite not liking it fully. But now his lame fake death and return due to fan outcry has forever tainted the character. Prediction: he'll never be as popular as he was before, not supporting his own book for long anyway.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Buck's rebirth could have sucked but they made him a cool communist assassin character. I could live with despite not liking it fully. But now his lame fake death and return due to fan outcry has forever tainted the character. Prediction: he'll never be as popular as he was before, not supporting his own book for long anyway.

It wasn't due to fan outcry, Bru had that plan all along. You really think Marvel would discard a potentially profitable character like that so easily?

[tliscord]

It wasn't due to fan outcry, Bru had that plan all along. You really think Marvel would discard a potentially profitable character like that so easily?

Fan whining had nothing to do with his return, I agree (I was whinning too). It was originally planned at the end of Gulag but during one of the retreats faking his death was moved to Fear Itself.
Fraction certainly took a lot of heat for that one, much to his credit. Brubaker must've bought him a case of Bordeaux!

[tliscord]

I still say there is good mileage to be milked from this.
There has been NOTHING presented in the Winter Soldier storyline that contradicts something I have been positing since we keep reviewing Bucky's apparant demise on the drone plane in WWII.

EVERY retelling of the story shows cap calling for Bucky to let go, that the plane is boobytrapped. The most recent version show Bucky calling that he can't, that he's caught and can't get free.
MUCH of Cap's angst has been that Bucky died and that he couldn't save him.

I suggest that what REALLY happened, is that Cap was telling Bucky that he HAD TO HANG ON... THAT IT WAS HIS DUTY...TO SAVE LONDON...ETC. And that what cap has been going through all these years is not only survivor's guilt (now removed with Bucky's survival), but also a mental block due to his guilt over ORDERING Bucky to stay on.

What happens when Bucky and Cap finally get together and Bucky blurts out that it's all Cap's fault that he lost an arm... that it was really Cap who almost got him killed... and Cap finally has to deal with the guilt that he has blocked from his mind all these years. He has mis-remembered the sequence to protect his mind from the guilt of ordering Bucky to his supposed death!

I maintain there is a gold-mine of material now available instead of Stan Lee's endless angst over the death of his partner.

Comments?

Well said. I agree this is turning out better than the original Lee approach, although WS probably couldn't have existed without the former plot device by Stan.