Of mutants and appearances... [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

The Lucky One

10-12-2006, 09:10 PM

Hey, gang. The recent discussion of Psylocke's British vs. Asian body has got me thinking, specifically about recognition factor and how it influences the characters we all know and love. As much as some fans might wish otherwise, it's a fact that superhero depictions in other forms of media (TV, movies) have a definite influence on their comic counterparts... look no further than Spidey's new organic webshooters, or Blade's Snipes-ification. But the particular example I'm thinking of concerns Psylocke -- when Betsy Braddock returned from the dead and we discovered her brother Jamie was involved, many fans felt Claremont was headed toward restoring the British version of Betsy. Well, that didn't happen, and I remember hearing that someone had asked Chris about it and he said essentially "the Asian version is the one most non-comics people know and recognize, so Marvel thinks she's more marketable that way." Which, whether we like it or not as fans, makes some sense from a business standpoint.

Okay, now follow me here: since the beginning of Grant Morrison's X-Men run in 200... 1?, Beast has had a devolved, cat-like form. Leaving aside all debate on whether that was a "good" idea or not (and please, let's not turn this thread into a "Cat Beast sucks!" "No way, it's brilliant!" fight), I think pretty much all of us can agree that the general public, when they think "Beast," think of the more ape-like form. He even appeared that way in X3... and yet numerous comic writers have mentioned that they'd like to revert Beast back to ape form, but haven't been allowed to. Which is Marvel's perogative... but I guess my question is, what do you feel like differentiates the two circumstances? Is it because they have too much respect for Morrison's run? (But if so, why the Xorneto retcon?) Do they think as long as he's still blue and furry, the general public wouldn't notice the difference? I'm not being snide, I truly have no agenda here; I'm just genuinely curious about what everyone thinks might be the reason why Psylocke remains in her Asian form because it's more marketable, but Beast retains the Garfield look, action figures be damned.

Thoughts?

-D

CaptainCanada

10-12-2006, 09:16 PM

Well, since Whedon is authoring Beast right now, I'm guessing he likes it (being an avowed fan of Morrison's run), and Marvel lets him do what he wants.

Joe Acro

10-12-2006, 09:19 PM

Marvel is currently all about opening up new directions in storytelling. Beast being in cat form allows writers to take Beast in a new direction, as a more introspective, scientific character. Off the top of my head, I can't see any way for new stories to be formed around Psylocke being reverted.

Christopher O

10-12-2006, 09:22 PM

Well, since Whedon is authoring Beast right now, I'm guessing he likes it (being an avowed fan of Morrison's run), and Marvel lets him do what he wants.
That would actually be my guess, as well. Besides, the Psylocke thing may also have to do with the fact that a reversion to her original body would be, in a sense, turning a minority character into a white one. Now, that's just a thought. I don't have any proof or anything.

The Lucky One

10-12-2006, 09:27 PM

Besides, the Psylocke thing may also have to do with the fact that a reversion to her original body would be, in a sense, turning a minority character into a white one. Now, that's just a thought. I don't have any proof or anything.

As opposed to a white person taking over a minority person's body, and the original minority person dying?
;)

No, I get what you mean, though.

-D

Christopher O

10-12-2006, 09:29 PM

As opposed to a white person taking over a minority person's body, and the original minority person dying?
;)

No, I get what you mean, though.

-D
Yeah, we know it's more complicated than that, but new and potential readers likely wouldn't, and neither would the mainstream media.

Beast

10-12-2006, 09:31 PM

It's all about marketing for Marvel. In the case of Psylocke, Claremont has indeed confirmed several times that Marvel won't allow her to be reverted to her original appearance due to the Asian Ninja version of her being more marketable. Note the fact that there's been several action figures (including one this year) and statues of Psylocke (3 this year) in her current look and very few items that feature her original look.

The same is true for Beast. Marvel Marketing sells the 'Apeman' Beast on almost all of it's products. He was also the version they featured movie. They even have altered Hank's current Astonishing X-Men look to look Ape-like for the top of it's action figure cards and other products. The iconic ape form is the one that Marvel chooses to sell, and if it wasn't for Whedon at the moment, he would have been reverted a long time ago.

So far there has only been 3 items that feature the Feline Beast among the hundreds of items that feature the Apeman. A Mini-Mate, a Bust, and a variant of an action figure. Two of which that were sold under the 'Astonishing X-Men' banner. Where as he got several figures featuring the Apeman visage, and a Halloween Costume that features his Astonishing X-Men outfit with an Apeman Beast mask. He even got an Adult Halloween mask this year featuring his more Iconic appearance, because that's the one that people know and will buy.

streator

10-13-2006, 05:00 AM

i think him still being blue and furry are recognizable enough characteristics.
the way artists draw him changes from appearance to appearance, anyway.
also, if you take they way he was originally drawn in cat-form in new x-men and compare it to the way cassaday draws him now there are some significant differences.
it would seem that as long as an artist gets that he's an intelligent beast, blue and furry there is some leeway allowed with the remaining details.

i would say iceman is a comparable character right now in terms of appearance and use.
artists draw him differently and like to put their own spin on how he should look.
as long as he still looks like 'iceman' then some changes are allowed. compare the way he looked in milligan's x-men to x-men: the 198 or the way he looks in x-men: civil war to carey's x-men. they're not the same, but they are at least recognizable as being versions of the same character.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 05:21 AM

Which is Marvel's perogative... but I guess my question is, what do you feel like differentiates the two circumstances?

Thoughts?

-D
I'm annoyed, that's what.

Story wise to every point I can think of, changing Psylocke back to caucasian body made sense. Leaving her as she was was understandable but when put against reasons to change back, lost big time.

Beasts change is an odd one, and they are happy to leave it whcih I find odder and it's a huge double standard. I guess they think techincally it's still a blue furry guy.

Of course most recently, Gambit went from a white guy with brown hair to a guy with black skin and white hair. Is that iconic and marketable (as Beast said above marketing comes into play)?

It's double standards. Of course with most artists you wouldn't notice a difference, most artists just draw faces teh same.

Off the top of my head, I can't see any way for new stories to be formed around Psylocke being reverted.
How about the one we just had with her in?

Valmore

10-13-2006, 05:28 AM

Well this is easy -

Boys like ninjas. Boys like thongs. Boys like boobs. Boys like hot chicks.

Ninja-babe Psylocke is all of that.

Which makes her more marketable than Birthin'-hips British Psylocke.

As for Beast - who the heck knows why they keep Beast as that abomination Morrison made?

The Fury

10-13-2006, 05:33 AM

Which makes her more marketable than Birthin'-hips British Psylocke.

What x-men comics did you read?

Valmore

10-13-2006, 05:34 AM

What x-men comics did you read?

What, this week?

The Fury

10-13-2006, 05:37 AM

What, this week?
No, back when caucasian psylocke was in comics.

twilight

10-13-2006, 05:46 AM

As for Beast - who the heck knows why they keep Beast as that abomination Morrison made?

Doesn't the opening post request people to leave crap like this at the door.

But I would just like to say that Cat-Beast rocks.

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 06:30 AM

How about the one we just had with her in?
There's been a recent story with a white Psylocke? That's news to me.

Mikl C

10-13-2006, 06:48 AM

Agreed with Valmore. Asian psylocke is "hotter" than British Psylocke.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 06:55 AM

There's been a recent story with a white Psylocke? That's news to me.
No, the story would have worked better with caucasian psylocke.

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 08:47 AM

No, the story would have worked better with caucasian psylocke.
How so? And even if that were so, reverting her for the sake of writing one story would be cheap. If she were to be reverted, I would only hope it's because the writer feels they can do some good stories which such a revision for a while. I think eventually, this Beast thing will run its course and someone will change him back.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 09:10 AM

How so? And even if that were so, reverting her for the sake of writing one story would be cheap. If she were to be reverted, I would only hope it's because the writer feels they can do some good stories which such a revision for a while. I think eventually, this Beast thing will run its course and someone will change him back.
It wouldn't be for one story, it would be afor a story that involved the entire Braddock family and Psylocke's past. She would stay as caucasian after.

Can I ask for reason why bringing her back as east asian Psylocke was better for the story? How her crazy brother who knew Psylocke best in her original form (having met her like once while she was in her asian body) would decide to leave her that way? In this case marketing got in the way of story.

Of course I'm just bitter becuase on the other hand Marvel editors allow Gambit to be changed like he didn't have a market.

AceOfSpades

10-13-2006, 09:22 AM

I gotta say that the whole Psylocke thing is really confusing. I tried explaining it to my sister, but she was lost completly, to her Psylocke has been and always will be asian (or at least ninja if she isn't drawn as looking asian)

Marvel, i'm guessing, kept Betsy like she is simply because a hot ninja is more appealing to new readers, or at least more likely to draw them in. And, by this point she has been ninja longer than she was british

The Fury

10-13-2006, 09:47 AM

Marvel, i'm guessing, kept Betsy like she is simply because a hot ninja is more appealing to new readers, or at least more likely to draw them in. And, by this point she has been ninja longer than she was british
Character in the comics wise or publishing wise, becuase she was 25 or so when her body was swapped. 4 years doesn't compare to 25.

Publising sure.

But how about a less sterio-typical ninja? A caucasian one...how many of those are there?

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 09:51 AM

It wouldn't be for one story, it would be afor a story that involved the entire Braddock family and Psylocke's past. She would stay as caucasian after.

Can I ask for reason why bringing her back as east asian Psylocke was better for the story? How her crazy brother who knew Psylocke best in her original form (having met her like once while she was in her asian body) would decide to leave her that way? In this case marketing got in the way of story.

Of course I'm just bitter becuase on the other hand Marvel editors allow Gambit to be changed like he didn't have a market.
Jamie's not an idiot. If he brings her back and the X-Men find her, they'll question her being white instead of Asian. But in any case, her being her classic British self again wouldn't present new stories. The same stories can be written with the current Psylocke. She'll just look different.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 09:59 AM

But in any case, her being her classic British self again wouldn't present new stories. The same stories can be written with the current Psylocke. She'll just look different.
I think personally loads of new stories could ahve been writen. Why do you think she was killed in the first place(and Claremont wanted to bring her back again)? Thats' right...no good stories with the character.

East Asain ninja in hardly anythign has been done.

fishtaco

10-13-2006, 10:00 AM

I gotta say that the whole Psylocke thing is really confusing. I tried explaining it to my sister, but she was lost completly, to her Psylocke has been and always will be asian (or at least ninja if she isn't drawn as looking asian)Did you include Revanche in her transformation to an asian body, or did you mention the Crimson Dawn? Or what happened recently?

Mariah

10-13-2006, 10:12 AM

Personally, the only thing that was worse for Psylocke was when they gave her telekinetic powers. Seriously, let's get back to the telepathy.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 10:25 AM

Personally, the only thing that was worse for Psylocke was when they gave her telekinetic powers. Seriously, let's get back to the telepathy.
Oh yeah, tha'll do for now. :D

brundlefly

10-13-2006, 10:32 AM

It could be a case of just not being enough of a hot-button issue to be seen as in need of immediate "fixing" by Joe Q/Marvel editorial. After Morrison's New X-Men ended, the two "immediate fix needed" items in the X-Universe were Too Many Mutants (addressed/resolved in HOUSE OF M) and Crazy Nazi Magneto (addressed/resolved in CC's EXCALIBUR). Since Whedon "inherited" cat-Beast from Morrison for his Astonishing team, and CaptainCanada noted that Whedon likes Morrison's work, Whedon either likes cat-Beast or could have just seen rebooting him back to ape-Beast as being disrespectful to Morrison's run, as it would be another retcon on top of the other retcons that were going on around the same time. Given that Beast is still blue, furry and is essentially still the same character (and still matches his current merch and action figures well enough), I would think it's probably being left up to the writer/artist team as opposed to a reversion being mandated for marketing purposes. I agree that a return to "iconic" ape-Beast is inevitable (and I prefer it to cat-Beast), but I don't think it's high on the writer's (in this case, Whedon's) "to do" list.

Mariah

10-13-2006, 10:37 AM

Whedon wanted to revert him back with the cure storyline, as did Bendis with the House of M, but editorial shot them down both times.

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 10:41 AM

I think personally loads of new stories could ahve been writen. Why do you think she was killed in the first place(and Claremont wanted to bring her back again)? Thats' right...no good stories with the character.

East Asain ninja in hardly anythign has been done.
Look, I'm not saying no good stories can be written with Psylocke. The Savage Land story after her return was pretty good. And sure, as a ninja she's been in lots of adventures. Just give me an example of more than one story that cuold be written with British Betsy as opposed to Asian Betsy.

Mariah

10-13-2006, 10:54 AM

brundlefly

10-13-2006, 11:01 AM

Whedon wanted to revert him back with the cure storyline, as did Bendis with the House of M, but editorial shot them down both times.

Huh. Well, I stand corrected on that theory, then. I could see Marvel editorial mandating that Beast be switched back to ape-form for pure marketing reasons, but I don't see their rationale for demanding that he be kept in cat form. Unless they've got some big cat-Beast merchandise push in the works. But if that's the case, then I wonder why they went with the ape-Beast look in X3, if they're so adamant about keeping the cat-Beast look in the actual comics?

subliminal

10-13-2006, 11:15 AM

Hmmm... I would think that an ape-like Beast would be easier for the make-up people in movies than a cat-like Beast -- but with CGI these days, who knows.

I don't understand how the color of Betsy's skin makes her a different character. It's like a haircut or a new costume to me, she's still the same person inside. I don't get the asian body = automatic ninja 'powers' thing either. Is it the systemic conditioning/training between the body and brain? I thought ninja skills were just like swordmanship skills, you just learn them? Or maybe the body of caucasian Betsy wasn't as flexible? Anyway, I prefer precognitive Betsy. It was strange to see Psylocke with shadow teleportation powers in the movies.

I like Iceman when he's not covered in ice or snow. I don't know if he would look 'real' if they covered him up all the time in the movies.

Otherwise, I generally like what has been done in terms of appearance to the X-characters for the movies and related merchandise. Mystique is way cooler with her body scaling thing than that horrid white dress she used to wear in costumes. And I applaud Marvel for accepting actors of color for the roles of Callisto, Psylocke, Kid Omega and Arclight. Even though their appearance and backround story is different, the story is still good and entertaining. The designers of visuals for different media know what their doing... People have to stop being so literal sometimes.

Beast

10-13-2006, 11:44 AM

Whedon wanted to revert him back with the cure storyline, as did Bendis with the House of M, but editorial shot them down both times.
Where have you heard that? Everything I've heard is that Whedon doesn't want to do it right now, hence why Bendis couldn't do it for HoM. That's what Bendis said anyway.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 11:48 AM

Look, I'm not saying no good stories can be written with Psylocke. The Savage Land story after her return was pretty good. And sure, as a ninja she's been in lots of adventures. Just give me an example of more than one story that cuold be written with British Betsy as opposed to Asian Betsy.
Okay os there aren;t any except for ones based around she;s changed again.

But then you can say that about any character who goes through a change. The first story would be about their change then nothing, all the stories revert back to what they were. Beast is still Beast after all.

I'm not saying that better stories can come from her as caucasian, but the recent story would have made a lot more sense then it did. This is beside the fact I think a non-asian ninja is a concept that comic companies seem to be affriad to do.

Faded

10-13-2006, 12:07 PM

Honestly, I think it depends on whatever the higher up's preferences are. I don't blame them if that's the case.

If it really is marketing, I'd say that the appearance of a female probably matters more than that of a male.

Then there's the race thing...

subliminal

10-13-2006, 12:10 PM

I'm not saying that better stories can come from her as caucasian, but the recent story would have made a lot more sense then it did. This is beside the fact I think a non-asian ninja is a concept that comic companies seem to be affriad to do.

Huh? Like Elektra? Betsy could have Psi-sais! *fun to say actually*

The Fury

10-13-2006, 12:12 PM

Huh? Like Elektra? Betsy could have Psi-sais! *fun to say actually*
...quiet you, I'm trying to build an argument.

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 12:33 PM

Okay os there aren;t any except for ones based around she;s changed again.

But then you can say that about any character who goes through a change. The first story would be about their change then nothing, all the stories revert back to what they were. Beast is still Beast after all.

Beast is a different Beast from before his change. He changed emotional state, way of thinking, and general attitude. This has allowed for some interesting scenes that might've been different with the old Beast. (I can't say for sure because the old Beast wasn't in them.)

The Fury

10-13-2006, 12:42 PM

Beast is a different Beast from before his change. He changed emotional state, way of thinking, and general attitude. This has allowed for some interesting scenes that might've been different with the old Beast. (I can't say for sure because the old Beast wasn't in them.)
I'm sorry, but as far as I can see he hasn't. Okay so he's less jokey but he make the occasional joke in books that are not Morrison's X-men or Astonishing. He's about to hang out with his best mate, Wonderman soon, joke will probably commence.

But Betsy changed as well, as caucasion you had a girl who was reserved and shy. She wore armour. She left that and was suddenly comfortable wearing next to nothing, A change I thought when I first read it a bit odd, now people do change becuase of certain events but that much. I guess you could argue that some of it was her brainwashing but she did revert back to her old mind yet was more then comfortable dressing in nothing.

Now, while teh same change is not likely if she went back to caucasian, there still might be a change. change in body might cause loss or gain in certain personality traits.

Gambit in his current form (brainwashed I know) might end up being a lot more quiet and shadowy, not the womanising hotshot from the 90s.

Beast

10-13-2006, 12:47 PM

I'm sorry, but as far as I can see he hasn't. Okay so he's less jokey but he make the occasional joke in books that are not Morrison's X-men or Astonishing. He's about to hang out with his best mate, Wonderman soon, joke will probably commence.
Being a major fan of the character, I can tell you that he is. His personally is radically different now than it used to be. He's more mopey and depressed, and generally suffering from massive levels of X-Angst, something he's generally avoided for the most part before. However that shift began as far back as when the Legacy Virus stuff started. Hank was pulled off the field and thrown in the lab, and got gloomy and scientific instead of having an upbeat personality. The cat change made him even moodier and angstier. I'm hoping when we finally have a revision of his appearance, we regain some of the more upbeat and less angsty elements of Beast's character. They really have managed to drain almost all the fun out of the character.

Mariah

10-13-2006, 12:49 PM

Where have you heard that? Everything I've heard is that Whedon doesn't want to do it right now, hence why Bendis couldn't do it for HoM. That's what Bendis said anyway.
I don't remember where exactly. Possibly an interview or something I read.

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 01:00 PM

Now, while teh same change is not likely if she went back to caucasian, there still might be a change. change in body might cause loss or gain in certain personality traits.

Gambit in his current form (brainwashed I know) might end up being a lot more quiet and shadowy, not the womanising hotshot from the 90s.
My whole argument has been based around the assumption that she wouldn't change much, if at all, when reverting back. Although, I have little basis for such a notion. If she were to change and the writer included a mood shift that made sense, I wouldn't mind it at all. And I suspect the change in Gambit, although unfortunate, if also part of Marvel's desire to take characters in new directions and allow for different stories.

Canemacar

10-13-2006, 01:24 PM

I don't see Marvel reverting Psylocke back to her original form any time soon. It won't accomplish anything but make old time fans happy and we know Joe doesn't care about that demographic. Most of the newer readers see her as being Asian and would be jarred to see her walking around as an Englishwoman. Kinda like seeing a black Michael Jackson again. The older fans would be happier, but most people would just be WTF?

The transformation with Beast is something Marvel can afford to stick with because the change isn't a big as the one with Psylocke and won't affect the marketability of the character too much. His cat look is close enough to the ape one that Marvel probably feels safe enough to use both looks: cat look in the books to maintain the "progress and evolution of the character" claims and ape in the movies and merchandise to get money from the fans.

Gambit's transformation was just Marvel taking away yet another of his defining characteristics that made him popular in the first place. It's character assassination. I don't see it as them trying to give him a new direction since they haven't bothered to actually wrap up what happened to him or follow through with it and Carey is just including a single issue appearance to give Rogue some closure.

Faded

10-13-2006, 02:24 PM

Gambit's transformation was just Marvel taking away yet another of his defining characteristics that made him popular in the first place. It's character assassination. I don't see it as them trying to give him a new direction since they haven't bothered to actually wrap up what happened to him or follow through with it and Carey is just including a single issue appearance to give Rogue some closure.

You think Gambit had it bad? Look at what they did to poor Chamber! :(

Canemacar

10-13-2006, 02:31 PM

I thought they were setting him and Blink up for an Apocalypse/Sinister storyline sometime next year.

Alan2099

10-13-2006, 02:32 PM

Maybe they could start a team.

The Brotherhood of Poorly Made Over Mutants.

Or maybe the Xacerbated men

Canemacar

10-13-2006, 02:38 PM

Or maybe just a "recovery room" X-book where characters who have been butchered can go and get patched up or take some time off from the core books.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 02:38 PM

You think Gambit had it bad? Look at what they did to poor Chamber! :(
Don't get me started on that.

Chamber was so cool. Now...well, makes me sad. :(

Beast

10-13-2006, 02:41 PM

Don't get me started on that.

Chamber was so cool. Now...well, makes me sad. :(
Now you all know how I feel about that cowardly lion imposter. :p

The Fury

10-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Now you all know how I feel about that cowardly lion imposter. :p
..we already knew, you say it dayly. :D

Valmore

10-13-2006, 03:18 PM

Now you all know how I feel about that cowardly lion imposter. :p

Careful - we're supposed to not post that "crap" according to some poster who likes cowardly lion Beast!

Beast

10-13-2006, 03:22 PM

..we already knew, you say it dayly. :D
Not daily. But often. :D

AceOfSpades

10-13-2006, 03:30 PM

Now you all know how I feel about that cowardly lion imposter. :p
i wouldn't call him the cowardly lion.. he doesn't have that weird laugh/chuckle/whine that the lion did

Beast

10-13-2006, 03:33 PM

i wouldn't call him the cowardly lion.. he doesn't have that weird laugh/chuckle/whine that the lion did
Dark Beast has called him that. He's where I got it from. :D

Grunty

10-13-2006, 03:36 PM

I agree that some X-men will be always asociated with one or two very prominent looks.

Collosus with his Red suit, Kitty with the standart X-men uniform, Angel with organic wings (which was most likely the reason they brought them back) and some more.

By the way i also noticed it for Marrow. Why her?
During her existance she went through some styles. From her Gene Nation style (half bald and swimmsuit) to her Operation Zero Tolerance style (short full hair, two parter, and the Alien style grips on the back), over the second X-men style (symetric bones, horns and near full controll) to the Weapon X style (no bones but full controll to create them like she wants) and finnaly the 2nd Gene Nation style (bones on feet and horns).

That are already quite some styles for such a "minor" (as some might see her) character.

However from what i see nearly everyone when thinking about Marrow first remembers her OZT style. Not only does she apears in this form on most artworks (fans and official artist) she also apeared with that in Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 and X-men Legends.
And to tell the truth i also think this way.

The Fury

10-13-2006, 04:15 PM

Collosus with his Red suit, Kitty with the standart X-men uniform, Angel with organic wings (which was most likely the reason they brought them back) and some more.

You are bringing up a lot of good point that had forgotten about that makes Psylockes non-change seem odder.

Although costumes are not that of a big change, Angel has gone through a lot of changes, He had the metal wings and blue skin for ages...nearly 20 years in real time, yet Marvel seemed more then happy to remove hi metal wing (yes 10 years ago but still) but they removed his blue skin not long after Psylocke died.

jawbreaker

10-13-2006, 10:26 PM

Of course I'm just bitter becuase on the other hand Marvel editors allow Gambit to be changed like he didn't have a market.

that one is more mind boggling to me than Beast. Just what *are* they trying to acomplish with Gambit's very drastically different new look?!? His old look is well recognized from the animated series & they still use it to sell toys(an action figure & a mini Zizzlinger figure just showed up at stores recently. And dont ask me to explain what Zizzlinger means, its too complicated):rolleyes:

& I want to know why new Chamber=baby Apocalypse, when his old look was so much cooler...:(