Non-Legacy "Diversity" characters? [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Damo

10-12-2006, 02:29 PM

So in another thread it was brought up that while DC's trying its best to promote diversity in its lineup, it's pretty much being done by replacing existing white heroes. I like the new Firestorm, Spectre, Blue Beetle, and Atom (heck I like the new Beetle only slightly less than Ted, and that's saying a lot).

But I think it's reasonable to be afraid some of these new characters might have problems down the line if DC wants to put the old characters back. And inheriting someone else's name and powers... well, it's kind of a step down from doing everything yourself, isn't it?

So with that in mind, what NON-LEGACY characters do you think could support their own book, while helping DC's quest for diversity?

My own thoughts:

Black Lightning - This is too obvious.
Static (as in Static Shock) - I know there are still some people hoping Milestone Comics will come back. It's feeling really unlikely, and this is a good character being unused.

Bronze Tiger and Vixen - I can't be the only one who salivated at the thought of this miniseries that never happened. He beat Batman, she's well known due to Justice League Unlimited. Come on DC!

Steel - another obvious one.

the4thpip

10-12-2006, 02:44 PM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/63065424397.1.GIF

A black gay middle aged guy, a black woman, a latina teenager, an Asian guy from Hong Kong... All brand new, nobody cared. :(

Bat-Mite

10-12-2006, 02:56 PM

a latina teenager

I read Power Company, and I don't remember anything that might lead one to think the girl (Candi?) was Hispanic. I have some vague recollection that she had an Italian surname (which technically would mean she is latin) but not "latina".

Kurt Busiek posts on these boards. I think I have seen him or hallucinated about him in this message board. I hear that if you say his name three times in front of a mirror, he appears and answers about forgotten comics lore. He also kills you with an ax.

Kurt Busiek! Kurt Busiek! Kurt Busiek!

Damo

10-12-2006, 03:28 PM

The "all new" part with Power Company was part of the problem. They weren't ALL new, but nobody really had the "almost star" status of Black Lightning, Static, or even Vixen.

Kurt Busiek

10-12-2006, 03:40 PM

I read Power Company, and I don't remember anything that might lead one to think the girl (Candi?) was Hispanic. I have some vague recollection that she had an Italian surname (which technically would mean she is latin) but not "latina".

Candace Jean "Candy" Gennaro.

Yeah, she's American of Italian descent, not Latina.

kdb

malephoenix

10-12-2006, 04:08 PM

Candace Jean "Candy" Gennaro.

Yeah, she's American of Italian descent, not Latina.

kdb

I take this to mean that Bat-Mite just met an untimely end from Kurt Busiek's Ax of Forgotten Comics Lore.

And my problem with Power Co. wasn't the "All-New." It was the debut. There were several one-shots made that lead up to the beginning of Power Co. and introduced the main characters. But I didn't have that kinda money. It was like a bunch of little #0 issues all at the same time. And since I didn't get in on the ground floor, I pretty much just decided to not check out the ongoing at all. I probably would have eventually, but it didn't last long enough for me to. :(

Bat-Mite

10-12-2006, 04:09 PM

Thanks for answering, Mr. Busiek... and not killing me with an axe.

Peter M.

10-12-2006, 04:10 PM

The "all new" part with Power Company was part of the problem. They weren't ALL new. Really? Aside from some tangential relations to previous superheroes, they were all new characters.

Peter M.

10-12-2006, 04:19 PM

well, it's kind of a step down from doing everything yourself, isn't it? Well then the same could be said for so many Silver Age characters like Atom, Green Lantern, Hawkman, etc.

Black Lightning - This is too obvious.
Static (as in Static Shock) - I know there are still some people hoping Milestone Comics will come back. It's feeling really unlikely, and this is a good character being unused.
DC doesn't own the rights to Static Shock and I believe there are also issues regarding the rights of Black Lightning too.

Jack Zodiac

10-12-2006, 11:34 PM

Really? Aside from some tangential relations to previous superheroes, they were all new characters.

Well, Bork's the only character from the original line-up who wasn't created by Kurt for the series. He was a one-time-only villain for The Flash and Batman in an issue of Brave and the Bold. The rest, though, were all brand-new, until Ronnie joined the team for a little while.

Sucks that it got cancelled. That book was great for a sudden launch of a title with a cast of completely new characters. Despite being so new, I really enjoyed each of their characters and motivations. And the book was going in such a great direction. An almost-forgotten Wonder Woman villain was being rebuilt, Ronnie Raymond was almost on a team again, Dr. Polaris was being given another chance at his initial characterization (the schizo angle), Kurt brought back The Haunted Tank!, and Witchfire was being given a lot of deserved attention that didn't get to lead anywhere given the abrupt ending.

Anyway, I agree. DC needs to start giving existing minority characters their own books. Many of them can hold one, easily. Black Lightning has been given a lot of attention in the past seven years that could make for great stories. Steel! He's practically a star in 52 right now. Hopefully afterwards, they'll work on getting him a title. Or at the very least, some more minis.

Damo

10-13-2006, 12:27 AM

Well then the same could be said for so many Silver Age characters like Atom, Green Lantern, Hawkman, etc.

Fair enough. But if you look at all the characters with their own books right now, I don't think DC has a single one where the original mantle-owner wasn't white. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to inherit a mantle from a white character - I think Mr. Terrific is a great example of just how well it can work. But when there's not even one character with their own book that made the mantle famous all by their lonesome, that's... something that could definitely bear improving on, no?

What's the current status on Black Lightning and Static, anyway? I thought from his JLA membership that Lightning's legal problems were being dealt with. I know Static's more of headache, but considering the guy has his own toon, it still seems weird that no kind of compromise has even been worked out.

Agentum

10-13-2006, 12:53 AM

And i don't get why they have so hard to just retire heroes, no they must kill them before a new one can take over.

That way they always must come up with the most stupid storys there is to get the dead back whne the new heroes fails.

And i agree that they could start non-legacy characters more often, but i guess writing them so good that people like them is harder than just give them the name of a previous loved hero to start with.

tracker7

10-13-2006, 12:59 AM

Does Aztek count?

Paragon

10-13-2006, 01:53 AM

My opinion:

The big problem with diversity characters as a whole is that writers make them all act in stereotype. (Read: ‘not interesting’).

This does not appeal to their specific demographic or to the traditional one.

This is why I like Mr Terrific so much. He is not just ‘anotha brotha’ from the ghetto.
He is not a white character with a black skin either.

Give them a good writer and good attributes, like any other good character.

And give them diversity of character
Everyone hates monotone 1 dimensional books.

I detest it when the characters / books are angsty/ emo/ bitter/ preachy/ silly/ dickish/ uber/ depro/ paranoid/ whatever all the time.

Why do writers always think that a character from a specific demographic must act in a certain way continuously? Give them something extra or different and refreshing.

I want more variety; as a matter of fact I would appreciate more characters outside of the US borders.

Look at the GL corpse for example. I want more Kilowog’s, and Mogo’s.

the4thpip

10-13-2006, 06:05 AM

Candace Jean "Candy" Gennaro.

Yeah, she's American of Italian descent, not Latina.

kdb
Oops, my bad. Went from memory there. Should dug out the series one of these days and read it start to finish again.

the4thpip

10-13-2006, 06:09 AM

Well, Bork's the only character from the original line-up who wasn't created by Kurt for the series. He was a one-time-only villain for The Flash and Batman in an issue of Brave and the Bold. The rest, though, were all brand-new, until Ronnie joined the team for a little while.

I wouldn't exactly call Manhunter brand new, even though this particular clone of Paul Kirk had (probably) not been seen before.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/63065424397.15.P2.GIF

Joe Acro

10-13-2006, 06:12 AM

Well, Bork's the only character from the original line-up who wasn't created by Kurt for the series. He was a one-time-only villain for The Flash and Batman in an issue of Brave and the Bold. The rest, though, were all brand-new, until Ronnie joined the team for a little while.

Did Busiek write the Manhunter series where the clone idea originated? We theoretically could've seen that Manhunter then, but would have had no way of knowing for sure.

Edit: Well, darn. I was beaten to it...

Bat-Mite

10-13-2006, 07:13 AM

Did Busiek write the Manhunter series where the clone idea originated?

No, that was Archie Goodwin.

Bat-Mite

10-13-2006, 07:16 AM

Does Aztek count?

Hard to say. Despite being whiter than white, he did come from south America, but his series ended abruptly, so we'll never know what his story was supposed to be.

Kurt Busiek

10-13-2006, 11:59 AM

Thanks for answering, Mr. Busiek... and not killing me with an axe.

Next time!

kdb

Kurt Busiek

10-13-2006, 12:03 PM

Did Busiek write the Manhunter series where the clone idea originated? We theoretically could've seen that Manhunter then, but would have had no way of knowing for sure.

Actually, when I did the POWER COMPANY: MANHUNTER one-shot with Dan Jurgens, we show which scene from the Goodwin/Simonson series our guy "defected" in, and I picked out which character it was in one of Walt's panels.

Don't know if I could do it again, mind you, but as far as I'm concerned, our guy did make an appearance in the original series, even if he didn't have any lines.

kdb

Damo

10-13-2006, 12:33 PM

Now that is just awesome.

And no, Aztek doesn't count. He was white as snow.

Erebus

10-13-2006, 02:50 PM

Well, Isis and Osiris are both Middle Eastern, and Mas y Menos are Latino.

Bat-Mite

10-13-2006, 02:54 PM

And no, Aztek doesn't count. He was white as snow.

That doesn't mean he can't be Hispanic, ya know. South America also had blond immigrants. There aren't many, but they exist. Heck, my grandma was blonde, and so are two of my aunts.

Bat-Mite

10-13-2006, 02:56 PM

Well, Isis and Osiris are both Middle Eastern

Now that you mention it, I think The Further Adventures of Isis and Black Adam could sustain their own book for a while.

EZMOHR

10-13-2006, 03:06 PM

Now that you mention it, I think The Further Adventures of Isis and Black Adam could sustain their own book for a while.

I think a Marvel Family comic with them appearing sometimes would do better than just a solo Isis and Black Adam comic. Black Adam is the best character re-do of the 2000's, they don't t need to over expose him.

And while Aztek was lily white.....there are quite a few non Nazi white folk in South America.

titanfan

10-13-2006, 04:43 PM

Don't forget Checkmate!

Amanda Waller, Mr. Terrific, and Fire are big players in the book. There is a chinese and a Middle Eastern character in the book as well.

Is Kyle Rayner still considered Hispanic? I know Ron Marz made a point of showing that Kyle's real father was hispanic...

G. Wayne

10-13-2006, 06:06 PM

I think a Marvel Family comic with them appearing sometimes would do better than just a solo Isis and Black Adam comic. Black Adam is the best character re-do of the 2000's, they don't t need to over expose him...

I'm anxious (to put it lightly) to see how the whole Black Adam/Isis/Osiris thing works out in 52 and Teen Titans. As much as I'd love to see a Black Adam solo title, a Black Marvel Family series (based in Kahndaq even) might work better, depending on how current things resolve, of course.

Xero

10-13-2006, 06:25 PM

Damo

10-13-2006, 08:29 PM

Amazing Man I and II, Mystek, Shango and the Orishas, Vulcan from Son of Vulcan, Bloodpack (Nightblade, Ballistic, Mongrel), half of Sovereign Seven, Supermen of America (Maximum and White Lotus), Muhammad X, Doom Patrol (Celcius, Tempest I), Cadre of Immortals (Muhammad Ib Bornu, Musashi, Maya, Seneca, Xiuhuatl) etc etc etc.

There are huge lists on wikipedia of heroes by ethnic group, many of them are seriously obscure like the Moondancers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_black_superheroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hispanic_superheroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle_Eastern_superheroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_superheroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_superheroes

Yeah I know... I want to say a little more than half of them, but I'm not sure how many of them could hold their own title. I don't see it happening with Muhammad X, Mystek (nifty idea, not done so well so far), or even Amazing Man (which is a pity, I really like him), although those three probably would be the best bets. Vulcan has a shot, although he is technically a legacy character. The rest I really don't see doing too well as main characters in a book.

Bat-Mite

10-13-2006, 09:12 PM

Well, any character could, theoretically, hold its own series. Barring of course one note joke characters and other exceptions.

There is no reason why Empress from Young Justice, or I dunno, Piñata from blue Beetle can't have their own stories. Just give them a setting, a cast of secondary characters and they can have their own stories. now, who the heck is going to buy them is not up to me to say.

phantom1592

10-14-2006, 04:37 AM

ONe of the problems I've seen mentionedis that there aren't enough Minority WRITERS. Whenever white guys try to write other characters they end up... unbelievable by actual minorities. This leads to "token" characters in teams and things like "sweet Christmas" Then someone, somewhere gets offended and things just become a mess.

Another thing I think is a problem with new characters is $$$. With the prices comics are going right now, you have to have SOMETHING to get me to take a chance on a book. I spend enough as it is. Using Legacy characters like Atom and Firestorm is a hook for pre-existing fans.

Petertime

10-14-2006, 09:27 AM

One of the problems I've seen mentionedis that there aren't enough Minority WRITERS. Whenever white guys try to write other characters they end up... unbelievable by actual minorities.

Thank you!
This is the issue. Its just a matter of what experience the writer is coming from, so we need to branch out and get more writers from more backgrounds.
*AND* as fans, we need to actually support any efforts. Now I am not saying you should buy something cause its "ethnic" but rather
TRY something new, and if it doesn't work send the writer/publisher a letter with some constructive criticism, what work and what didn't for you.

The other point is, sitting down and trying to come out with a character that isn't white isn't a good starting point. We need the creation to be organic, not forced. But how exactly do you encourage that?

the4thpip

10-14-2006, 11:53 AM

I'd like to see Ivan Velez, jr. get a new shot at one of the big two. His "Blood Syndicate" was one of my favorite series of the 90s. I was probably one of the few people enjoying his Ghost Rider stories (though the temporary, and probably editorially mandated, new look was a nightmare, and not in a good way). His Abominations and Eradicator minis were very disappointing, but those weren't exactly characters that wrote themselves.
I could see him on Titans East, Suicide Squad, Legion of Superheroes.

Apathy Boy

10-14-2006, 02:48 PM

Honestly, the industry isn't too kind to any superhero book that doesn't have some kind of tie to a decades-old franchise, regardless of the character's ethnic or social background. How many "new" superhero books created in the 2000s have gone on to success? RUNAWAYS? INVINCIBLE? And... err... uh...

I do think DC has at least one non-legacy "diversity" character who could have a successful run based on name recognition alone: Cyborg. Wouldn't be a smash hit unless it had a superstar team attached, but the series would last a few years because of the cache the character's earned from 25 years of Teen Titans membership and cartoon and TV appearances.

Damo

10-16-2006, 12:52 AM

It's true that the industry isn't kind to any new superhero book without some kind of hook. That's why I was asking if people could think of existing characters that are already well known enough that they could get people's attention.

Cyborg is an excellent example. I would totally buy that.

Person Man

10-16-2006, 06:05 AM

Found this lying around and thought it relevant.

The discussion that time was over whether a woman would inherently do a better job of writing WONDER WOMAN than a man, which is a sex-based assumption that, boiled down to principle, says that black writers can't write Batman as well as white writers, or female writers can't write the Hulk as well as male writers. Or, taken to the extreme, rich writers, abused writers, criminal writers and on and on. Part of the job of being a writer involves being convincing when not writing about yourself or people exactly like you -- which is good in Wonder Woman's case, since few working comics writers, male or female, were made out of clay and brought to life by the gods. I think Grant Morrison's the only one.

Leebenhouse

10-16-2006, 01:44 PM

Yes!!!

And what about all the international heroes the DC created for it's annuals, then abandoned, with a few exceptions.

In all honesty, I think that DC has more superheroes lying around than marvel does, so out of all the attempts they've made to create new heroes, theres dozens, like Amazing Man, who end up fading into the ether. Mind Amazing man was (sort of) killed by the Mist in Star Man along with the majority of the JLE.

Bat-Mite

10-16-2006, 02:35 PM

You mean Planet DC? I think the problem is they mostly sucked... a lot.

Bat-Mite

10-16-2006, 02:35 PM

You mean Planet DC? I think the problem is they mostly sucked... a lot.

Bat-Mite

10-16-2006, 02:36 PM

Double Post. Ignore.

Effect

10-16-2006, 08:42 PM

Well then the same could be said for so many Silver Age characters like Atom, Green Lantern, Hawkman, etc.

DC doesn't own the rights to Static Shock and I believe there are also issues regarding the rights of Black Lightning too.

It's a shame. Static is a great character and I can see him just fitting in well with the Teen Titans and then future Justice League ala DCAU. The show was great as well and loved how they somehow allowed it to sync up with the DCAU and even had him as a member of the Justice League in the Batman Beyond future. His looking up to both Batman and Green Lantern (John) was a nice touch as well.