Pick Your Retcon 6: Sage!

[HellFrost]

Hey guys. Pick Your Retcon 6: Sage is here. She's a controversial topic, after having been retconned into the very heart of the X-Men, when Claremont made her Xavier's first student.

Choice 1: Tessa was not Xavier's secret spy.

Originally, Tessa worked for Sebastion Shaw, as more or less, his personal assistant. There appeared to be no ties between Tessa and Xavier, strengthed by the fact that he stated he did not trust her to deal with Donald Pierce in the New Mutants Graphic Novel. Another fact that disproves Tessa's connection to Xavier can be found in her inaction during The Dark Phoenix Saga. While UncannyXMen.net speculates her lack of warning was connected to the X-Men being believed to be dead and Xavier's time in space, it still comes off a bit odd, making one wonder the believability of the situation.

Choice 2: Tessa is Sage, Xavier's secret spy, the deus-ex-machina

In this retcon, Sage found Xavier trapped after his crippling battle, under wreckage. They parted, but met again when she became Xavier's student, who he began training around the time he founded the X-Men. Instead of asking her to join the team, he told her to watch Sebastian Shaw as his spy. She served him with varying degrees of loyalty the years before he eventually turned her away. She joined the X-Men then, after being rescued by Storm. On top of this, she does seem to have numerous powers that had never been stated before. she is a cyberpath, with a mind that is only comparible to that of a super computer with its many functions, has telepathy strong enough to block out Emma Frost and Phoenix, can scan people for all possible mutants, and is able to jumpstart latent mutations.

My choice:
I personally love Sage and the concept of a character that old and steeped into the comics secretly having worked for Xavier. I like powers, even though I understand they can be hard to believe at times.

So start voting, ppl!

[Beast]

I love Sage also, and like what CC's developed Tessa into. Yes there's some minor problematic continuity issues, but nothing any bigger than retcons to anyone elses origins. I also like Sage's comments in X-Treme about punishing herself for not being able to save Jean from the Hellfire Club.

[HellFrost]

I love Sage also, and like what CC's developed Tessa into. Yes there's some minor problematic continuity issues, but nothing any bigger than retcons to anyone elses origins. I also like Sage's comments in X-Treme about punishing herself for not being able to save Jean from the Hellfire Club.
I totally agree. I also loved that line. It showed he knew what he was doing with her. I think that she makes most of the issues she's been in a lot of fun!

[Omega Alpha]

Lame and unecessary retcon which contradicts the original comics completely and makes her look like the world's worse spy.

[That JonoGuy]

I LOVE the idea that Sage was Xavier's first student. The fact that it didn't come out till a long way after and the mishandling of her situation by Xavier brings a whole different light onto him. Plus, the fact that she still isn't the most trustworthy of allies just makes her all the most interesting.

[Deus ex Chris]

I really enjoyed Sage a great deal during the first half of X-TREME X-MEN, but I eventually got sick of her. That being said, I do like the idea of her being a spy, but I think I may have enjoyed it more, if it had been revealed that she simply switched sides. For instance, the Phoenix debacle could have caused her to re-assess her loyalties and ultimately lead to her becoming a covert X-Man. Being there all along just doesn't work for me.

[Syzygy]

The problems with believing Sage to be Xavier's secret spy are far from minor. This retcon was Chris Claremont at his worst, making a major, unnecessary, nonsensical, and wholly illogical "revision" in X-Men history.

This has been proven at length, in great detail:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=121729

The medicine for shaking off this utter absurdity (even by comic-book standards!) is to read the Dark Phoenix Saga from the point of view that Tessa is Xavier's spy, and that therefore Xavier had prior knowledge of Frost, Shaw, and the Club. And that's just for starters.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Beast]

The problems with believing Sage to be Xavier's secret spy are far from minor. This retcon was Chris Claremont at his worst, making a major, unnecessary, nonsensical, and wholly illogical "revision" in X-Men history.

This has been proven at length, in great detail:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=121729

Peace,
Syzygy
Not proven what so ever. That's just your opinion of the situation.

[Syzygy]

Not proven what so ever. That's just your opinion of the situation.

Totally proven.

I note you never participated in that thread and attempted to refute any arguments.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Beast]

Totally proven.

I note you never participated in that thread and attempted to refute any arguments.

Peace,
Syzygy
So what? You have your opinion and I have mine. Nuff said.

[Joe Acro]

I don't like Sage simply because we have too many mentalists! Admittedly, her power isn't exactly telepathy, but she has demonstrated telepathic feats in the fast, I believe. In terms of the retcon, I don't know whether it was bad considering past continuity or not. But I don't see a reason for her to be Xavier's first student or even to be his spy.

[Faded]

I really enjoyed Sage a great deal during the first half of X-TREME X-MEN, but I eventually got sick of her. That being said, I do like the idea of her being a spy, but I think I may have enjoyed it more, if it had been revealed that she simply switched sides. For instance, the Phoenix debacle could have caused her to re-assess her loyalties and ultimately lead to her becoming a covert X-Man. Being there all along just doesn't work for me.

I didn't know what to post, but this right here is a good one.

[Alan2099]

I find Sage to be boring as a character, I think her powers aren't interesting, and the retcon really doesn't seem to fit or seem nessisary.

On top of that, it makes Sage herself seem rather ineffective as a spy and it adds yet another black mark to Xavier.

[brundlefly]

#1. Despite whether or not it was a retcon or she was always intended to be a sleeper agent by CC, it still seems a bit of a stretch how she was never able to warn any of the Hellfire Club's intended targets (like Xavier himself, the X-Men, New Mutants, etc.) of danger before attacks on them. Plus, I liked her role as Tessa in the HFC as Shaw's ever-present, DUNE-style personal Mentat, providing him with detailed backgrounds on foes or analysis of threats and complex situations at a glance. Since becoming "Sage", she's just kind of MATRIX's Trinity-lite and not all that essential a member to any of the X-teams.

[Jake V]

Cyclops is the first student. Sage is merely a pet character.

Not much more needs to be said.

[JLarson]

I don't have a problem with the idea of different original students, but Sage is... kinda stupid.

[Gene M.]

Sage was not the first student. I can ignore all of the plot holes that surround the idea of her being a spy, I can ignore how ridiculously overpowered I think she is, but Sage being the "real" first X-Man is just...so...stupid.

[twilight]

Not a fan of the "First X-Man" idea.

I'll pick option one thanks.

[HellFrost]

Ok... I can respect other peoples opinions but... I just don't understand why some of you feel that way. Why is Sage stupid? Are her powers really that uninteresting? I get that she's overpowered but she's still fun to read sometimes... at least to me.

[Beast]

Well, she technically wasn't his first X-Man. He gave her training, nothing more.

[Deus ex Chris]

He gave her training, nothing more.
That's what he wants you to believe.

Remember his secret crush?

[curefreak]

i personally dont like retcons and this is one of the reasons.. so im voting for one.
she has potential to be an interesting character but i think they should just stick to her having a computer mind and whatever benefits she gets from that.
and i dont buy she was the first x-men and i usually dont buy most retcons either, just cause the powers that be say such and such happened like tony stark not being in the vietnam war even tho we have proof positive that he was,
i understand it ages his character but so what?

[d newton]

I found these quotes from the aforementioned link to be very funny:
Read, but go and get your barf-bag first, because you’ll need it.


&

Barf me a river! You know it isn’t a false lead!

[HellFrost]

..................................Huh? :confused:

[Babylon23]

While I'm not a huge fan of the retcon (in that I can see where the continuity problems are), I love Sage as a hero. I think she was one of the best things to emerge from X-Treme. I think the retcon could have been handled better, and I like Dues Ex Chris' idea of DPS making a better turning point.

Still, I find Tessa a lot more interesting as Sage, so I'll vote for option 2.

[curefreak]

im glad to see that most people arent stupid enough to believe these ludacris retcons.
thats not to condemn the ones that do tho.

[That JonoGuy]

im glad to see that most people arent stupid enough to believe these ludacris retcons.
thats not to condemn the ones that do tho.

It's not really about believing in them, but more a matter of disagreement about them. The changes are there. Sage was one of Xaviers first pupils. That won't change unless it's re-retconned out of existence.

[Jake V]

It's not really about believing in them, but more a matter of disagreement about them. The changes are there. Sage was one of Xaviers first pupils. That won't change unless it's re-retconned out of existence.
It's not part of my personal canon! lalalalalalalalalalala

[curefreak]

It's not really about believing in them, but more a matter of disagreement about them. The changes are there. Sage was one of Xaviers first pupils. That won't change unless it's re-retconned out of existence.
well since im not to that point its easy for me not to believe it.
but i usually choose not to believe in retcons especially the stupid ones.

[Beast]

well since im not to that point its easy for me not to believe it.
but i usually choose not to believe in retcons especially the stupid ones.
Well, comics have featured retroactive continuity since they originally began. So deal with it.

[Beast]

im glad to see that most people arent stupid enough to believe these ludacris retcons.
thats not to condemn the ones that do tho.
Whether you like the retcon or not, calling people stupid that have a different opinion of you is over the line. As I said above, retcons have been a part of comics since they began. They will always be a part of comics. And whether you like them or not, they are going to happen. Minor ones occur every issue. And what do you mean your not 'condemning' those who do. You just called people stupid. Jesus Christ on a Cracker.

[Beast]

i usually dont buy most retcons either, just cause the powers that be say such and such happened like tony stark not being in the vietnam war even tho we have proof positive that he was,
i understand it ages his character but so what?
Well, you have to buy them if you want a stable comic timeline. You have to take into account the sliding time scale. It's no longer the vietnam war that he was involved in. And you wouldn't be saying 'So What?' if characters aged in real time. Marvel employs a sliding timescale where events slide forward. It's the only way to keep from having the Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spider-man from being in their 60's or older.

[Syzygy]

Well, comics have featured retroactive continuity since they originally began. So deal with it.

The point isn’t “Well, comics have always had retcons, so you should just accept them without whining.” The point is that comic retcons are subject to the same standards of the elements of fiction as every other. A retcon can be good or bad, necessary or superfluous, logical and coherent or brain-crackingly absurd. The Sage retcon was bad, unnecessary, and brain-crackingly absurd.

To prove that point, we only need look at the complete and total discontinuity between her mission, and her performance.


First, just what was Tessa’s mandate?

In X-Treme X-Men #3, the X-Bard himself, Chris Claremont, tells us what Tessa's mission was:


"Tessa’s mission was much the same, to serve as Shaw’s shadow and report everything she learned to her own mentor, the founder of the X-Men, Charles Xavier."


This is straight from Claremont’s own narrative. He’s telling us what Tessa’s mission was in clear, straightforward--even, authoritative--terms: “report everything she learned”.

“Report everything she learned”, “report everything she learned,” “report everything she learned.”


Second, how did she perform:

1) Warhawk bugs Cerebro in Uncanny #110. Yet in Uncanny #129, we see that the bug is still functioning, and Shaw and others are spying on Xavier audio-visually. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier of this? It was her job to report everything she learned.

2) Frost outfits Mastermind with the mindtap mechanism to corrupt Jean Grey and convert her to evil. Frost is Shaw’s agent, and Shaw would have consulted Tessa on the matter. Wouldn’t Tessa have contacted Xavier and said, “Mastermind is tampering with Grey’s psyche”? It was her job to report everything she learned.

3) In Uncanny #132 Cyclops learns, too late, that Mastermind has joined the Hellfire Club. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier? It was her job to report everything she learned.

4) In Uncanny #132, Colossus hits Shaw, not once, but twice. If Tessa was Xavier’s spy, wouldn’t Xavier know the specific nature of Shaw’s absorption power? It was her job to report everything she learned.

5) In a later issue, Uncanny #151, Frost and Shaw lure Storm into a trap, and Frost exchanges bodies with Storm in order to steal her powers and capture the X-Men totally by surprise. The plan works. Only Amanda Sefton’s previously hidden sorcerous powers manage to save everybody’s lives. But Tessa would have known of this plan, and warned Xavier. It was her job to report everything she learned.

6) New Mutants #14 (or thereabouts) Kitty Pryde goes on as trip to the Massachusetts Academy with Doug Ramsey. She and Xavier both believe Frost is still in a coma. Xavier is so sure this is the case, he takes the team out searching for aliens (the Beyonder) rather than stick around and back Pryde up. But wouldn’t Tessa have told him that Frost had awakened? It was her job to report everything she learned.

(Some fans believe Tessa’s mission was primarily or solely to be a sleeper in regard to ferreting out the Shadow King [or Bogan]. This is an incorrect hypothesis. Never mind that Xavier still believes SK to be dead as far as Uncanny #117, well after Tessa’s all trained and in the field! Her mission was to report everything she learned.

Given her powers of Computation, Telepathy, and whatever else she’s got, and given her special training by Xavier specifically for this task, she sure did a lousy job of learning and reporting.


Primary Implication of This:

The hallmark of Marvel Comics is characters who, though they have superpowers, have behaviors, motivations, and personalities that are explicable, that make sense.

The primary problem I have with the “Tessa As Spy” scenario is that it makes a mockery of what I see as the Marvel Comics trademark, namely, the believability of the characters. That means characters with motivation and personalities that are explicable, that do make sense. Behavior that can be understood.

If Xavier has prior knowledge of the Hellfire Club, but he sends his team unwittingly into a deadly ambush for absolutely no gain whatsoever, what does that say about his personality and motivations? Does he want his team to get killed?

If Tessa is Xavier’s spy at the Hellfire Club, but she never warns him when the X-Men are about to be attacked, what does that say of her personality and motivations?

What about other characters, like Cyclops, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler. Suppose they’re sitting around the Mansion talking about their old “capers”, when Nightcrawler speaks up: “Scott, Logan, there’s something I’ve been meaning to ask you. If Charles had Tessa working as a spy within the Hellfire Club’s Inner Circle, why is it that the Club always blindsided us?”

Are Cyclops, Logan, and Kurt too dense to spot this problem, too stupid to ask this question?



Yeah, the spy angle doesn't work because The X-Men never gained any advantage having Tessa as an inside person. In all respects, the retcon makes Charles Xavier, The X-Men and The Hellfire Club look stupid.

In the 20 years between the introduction of The Hellfire Club and Sage joining The X-Men, there was not even a justifiable possibility showing that Xavier had a mole working for them. I never heard of a spy who never reported anything to her supervisor the way Sage did from 1979 through 2001.

So, ultimately, I believe that this is what’s primarily wrong with the “Tessa as Spy” scenario. It takes away from us what Chris Claremont himself has spent decades cultivating--believable characters, with explicable personalities and motivations that make sense.

And that’s why this retcon is so much worse than others, like, for example, making Xavier a Vietnam Vet rather than a Korea vet. That’s what makes it a bad, illogical, superfluous, and brain-crackingly absurd retcon.

Peace,
Syzygy

[curefreak]

Well, you have to buy them if you want a stable comic timeline. You have to take into account the sliding time scale. It's no longer the vietnam war that he was involved in. And you wouldn't be saying 'So What?' if characters aged in real time. Marvel employs a sliding timescale where events slide forward. It's the only way to keep from having the Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spider-man from being in their 60's or older.
or you could just pretend they stopped aging at 30 or 40 its not any less easier to swallow for me at least.

[curefreak]

Whether you like the retcon or not, calling people stupid that have a different opinion of you is over the line. As I said above, retcons have been a part of comics since they began. They will always be a part of comics. And whether you like them or not, they are going to happen. Minor ones occur every issue. And what do you mean your not 'condemning' those who do. You just called people stupid. Jesus Christ on a Cracker.
i meant that unlike some people i will alllow people to believe what they wanna believe and accept that as being a different opinion (unlike some people)
and retcons have not always been a part of comics cause roy thomas invented it and he hasnt always been around and to be honest i dont remember ever seeing a retcon when i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s.

[Sentinel K]

i meant that unlike some people i will alllow people to believe what they wanna believe and accept that as being a different opinion (unlike some people)
and retcons have not always been a part of comics cause roy thomas invented it and he hasnt always been around and to be honest i dont remember ever seeing a retcon when i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s.

Phoenix not being Jean after all. Jean turning up alive. 1985. RETCON.

I'm sure there are many earlier ones.

Your memory can't be that good.

[Crimson]

i meant that unlike some people i will alllow people to believe what they wanna believe and accept that as being a different opinion (unlike some people)
and retcons have not always been a part of comics cause roy thomas invented it and he hasnt always been around and to be honest i dont remember ever seeing a retcon when i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s.

In the 60's Professor Xavier died, only to return 10 or so issues later.

There are a few retcons in the 60s, most likely early, but we just accept them as the true stories now

[curefreak]

In the 60's Professor Xavier died, only to return 10 or so issues later.

There are a few retcons in the 60s, most likely early, but we just accept them as the true stories now
but comics have been around before the 60s tho.

[curefreak]

Phoenix not being Jean after all. Jean turning up alive. 1985. RETCON.

I'm sure there are many earlier ones.

Your memory can't be that good.
ouch! actually it is pretty bad i think i smoked too much weed or something.

[Sentinel K]

but comics have been around before the 60s tho.

So? What's your point?

[Crimson]

but comics have been around before the 60s tho.

Sorry, I thought you meant with this comment "remember ever seeing a retcon when i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s." before the 90s we never had the retcon usage we have today.

I was confused. :o

[Mikl C]

Syzygy is my God. Agree with him completely. It just doesn't make sense. Add on the fact that I dislike Sage (especially X-Treme Sage) and it's option 1 all the way.

[curefreak]

So? What's your point?
well beast said retcons have been around forever and i was proving him wrong.

[curefreak]

Sorry, I thought you meant with this comment "remember ever seeing a retcon when i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s." before the 90s we never had the retcon usage we have today.

I was confused. :o
now you're confusing me !

[Sentinel K]

well beast said retcons have been around forever and i was proving him wrong.

Well they've existed as long as long running stories have existed. i.e Golden Age Marvel and DC.

So pretty much forever.

[curefreak]

Well they've existed as long as long running stories have existed. i.e Golden Age Marvel and DC.

So pretty much forever.well according to wikipedia roy thomas invented it and coined the phase so thats what im going on, since im not a golden age kind of guy.

[Sentinel K]

well according to wikipedia roy thomas invented it and coined the phase so thats what im going on, since im not a golden age kind of guy.

He may have coined the phrase but he didn't invent the idea.

Retcons have been happening since the Golden Age.

I haven't raed any Golden Age stuff but I still know that it's been happening since then!

Why can you not accept that? :confused:

[curefreak]

He may have coined the phrase but he didn't invent the idea.

Retcons have been happening since the Golden Age.

I haven't raed any Golden Age stuff but I still know that it's been happening since then!

Why can you not accept that? :confused:
im almost positive that wikipedia gave him credit for inventing the idea and the term.
tho i always found it weird since hes supposed to be the king of continuity.

[Sentinel K]

im almost positive that wikipedia gave him credit for inventing the idea and the term.
tho i always found it weird since hes supposed to be the king of continuity.

Nope

The term "retroactive continuity" was popularized by comic book writer Roy Thomas in his 1980s series All-Star Squadron

And it's best not to completely trust wikipedia anyway. It's just some bloke who's written it. It isn't infallible.

[curefreak]

Nope



And it's best not to completely trust wikipedia anyway. It's just some bloke who's written it. It isn't infallible.
well ya gotta trust someone and besides its done by comitee so if i all of a sudden change something in roy thomas's profile and it doesnt fit the community standerds it will get changed back.

[HellFrost]

well ya gotta trust someone and besides its done by comitee so if i all of a sudden change something in roy thomas's profile and it doesnt fit the community standerds it will get changed back.
.......wikipedia is done by ordinary people who tend to disagree with one another....... your right, it might change back because(and this isn't meant to sound offensice) people like you would change it back.......

He did not invent the concept. He invented or 'popularized' the term.......


well beast said retcons have been around forever and i was proving him wrong.
And here your just being nit picky and immature because you know your wrong.........
------------------------------------------
Anyway, I totally see your points guys, but one of the things that's got me is that Tessa was supposed to be struggling between her loyalty to Xavier and Shaw....... why is it so hard to believe that she'd withold information?

[curefreak]

.......wikipedia is done by ordinary people who tend to disagree with one another....... your right, it might change back because(and this isn't meant to sound offensice) people like you would change it back.......

He did not invent the concept. He invented or 'popularized' the term.......



And here your just being nit picky and immature because you know your wrong.........
------------------------------------------
Anyway, I totally see your points guys, but one of the things that's got me is that Tessa was supposed to be struggling between her loyalty to Xavier and Shaw....... why is it so hard to believe that she'd withold information?
im immature? beast is constantly argueing against everything i believe just for the sake of arguement what does that make him???
and i rarely ever change things on wikipedia and the stuff i have changed is not that important.

[HellFrost]

im immature?
When you argue something so meaningless as 'retcons have been around forever' when you know that's not what they meant..... yeah. i'd say it does.
beast is constantly argueing against everything i believe just for the sake of arguement what does that make him???
It makes him argumentative, not that that's what I think he was doing. How do you know he just doesn't have completely opposite views than you.
and i rarely ever change things on wikipedia and the stuff i have changed is not that important.
ugh.... If you read the post... I said 'people like you' (still not meant offensive) I didn't even think you did change stuff in wikipedia until you just said that..........

I meant people who share your very strong... 'beliefs'.

[curefreak]

When you argue something so meaningless as 'retcons have been around forever' when you know that's not what they meant..... yeah. i'd say it does.

It makes him argumentative, not that that's what I think he was doing. How do you know he just doesn't have completely opposite views than you.

ugh.... If you read the post... I said 'people like you' (still not meant offensive) I didn't even think you did change stuff in wikipedia until you just said that..........

I meant people who share your very strong... 'beliefs'.
so im immature and beast is not?
even tho you have yet to clarify why you feel this way.
so that makes you another person trying to knock me down because of my beliefs i dont think that speaks of any kind of maturity in my opinion.

[Beast]

well beast said retcons have been around forever and i was proving him wrong.
Ahem... Captain America originally remained active through the 1950's with Bucky. His origins were retconned in the first couple of issues of Avengers when they discovered him frozen in ice. Now he had fallen into ice cold water and ended up frozen in the 1940's and that Bucky died. The Captain Americas and Buckys who continued appearing after that point were retconned into different people carrying on the name of Captain America and Bucky after Steve and Bucky supposedly died. So yes, retcons have long existed. :p

[curefreak]

Ahem... Captain America originally remained active through the 1950's with Bucky. His origins were retconned in the first couple of issues of Avengers when they discovered him frozen in ice. Now he had fallen into ice cold water and ended up frozen in the 1940's and that Bucky died. The Captain Americas and Buckys who continued appearing after that point were retconned into different people carrying on the name of Captain America and Bucky after Steve and Bucky supposedly died. So yes, retcons have long existed. :p
whatever !

[Sentinel K]

whatever !

Mmmmm..... I wonder why people call Curefreak immature......?

[curefreak]

Mmmmm..... I wonder why people call Curefreak immature......?
maybe i just got tired of argueing with beast? thats not anymore immature than continuing to argue with him..

[curefreak]

i seriously doubt that retcons have been around since the beginning of comic books cause they werent taken that seriously at first, so why retcon anything? and second of all caps "disapearance" was retconned in the 60s that doesnt prove that retcons have been around forever.

[Sentinel K]

i seriously doubt that retcons have been around since the beginning of comic books cause they werent taken that seriously at first, so why retcon anything? and second of all caps "disapearance" was retconned in the 60s that doesnt prove that retcons have been around forever.

Don't take the word 'forever' so literally. That obviously isn't what he meant.

He was talking about modern serial comics. The start of DC and Timely.

[curefreak]

Don't take the word 'forever' so literally. That obviously isn't what he meant.

He was talking about modern serial comics. The start of DC and Timely.
so now you can read beasts mind?

[Sentinel K]

so now you can read beasts mind?

No. I just know when to not take something someone has said too literally.

[Frodo-X]

i seriously doubt that retcons have been around since the beginning of comic books cause they werent taken that seriously at first, so why retcon anything?

I think you answered your own question. Nobody took them seriously, so nobody really cared about continuity. Because of that, the writers could change whatever they wanted to suit the story and it wouldn't have mattered.

[Beast]

whatever !
Excellent reply. And you wonder why people get annoyed with you.

And considering DC comics have been around since the 1930's or so, it's been a long time.

[curefreak]

Excellent reply. And you wonder why people get annoyed with you.

And considering DC comics have been around since the 1930's or so, it's been a long time.
so everythings my fault:rolleyes: if people get annoyed with me its my fault even tho i get completly frustrated with a lot of people on here (including you)so if i get annoyed with you then its youre fault according to you and then maybe you should do something that doesnt annoy me right?
im tired of talking about me can we just get to the subject at hand for christ sakes!

[Beast]

I think you answered your own question. Nobody took them seriously, so nobody really cared about continuity. Because of that, the writers could change whatever they wanted to suit the story and it wouldn't have mattered.
Exactly. That's why in those early issues of Superman from the 1930's and so, continuity was changed every issue. Because the writers just wanted to tell fun stories, and didn't care about what had been told before. That's why later they established those different versions that didn't gel were actually taking place on different earths. Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. That's why DC needed a Crisis to clean up their mess of continuity. I prefer how Marvel handles their continuity, with small frequent retcons instead of massive 'Crisis' level ones. :)

[Arrjay]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.

[curefreak]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.
arrjay are you ok? i think maybe we should call a doctor for you....

[Alan2099]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.
can somebody translate that to english for me?

[curefreak]

can somebody translate that to english for me?
well my ebonics is rusty but i think hes trying to say "cyke was the original first x-men and i dont buy the sage retcon"

[caney]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.

TESTIFY!!!!

[Frodo-X]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.

Word.67890

[Sentinel K]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.

Billy-Bollocks.

[Frodo-X]

Billy-Bollocks.

I assume this is English for something unpleasant.

[Wind-Breaker]

I liked the whole Xavier Spy angle. It goes with the secret X-Men theme of Deadly Crisis. As for Sage being the first X-Man, when you really think about it, even if she worked with Xavier before Summers did, Scott in some ways this still the first. He lead the taskforce, he went through all the training, and he was the successor if something happened to Xavier. All Sage was a spy, she didn't particpate with the taskforce or anything, she was just a wildcard. So I think you can have it both ways.

[Arrjay]

I assume this is English for something unpleasant.

He's basically saying William Balls.

[Beast]

I liked the whole Xavier Spy angle. It goes with the secret X-Men theme of Deadly Crisis. As for Sage being the first X-Man, when you really think about it, even if she worked with Xavier before Summers did, Scott in some ways this still the first. He lead the taskforce, he went through all the training, and he was the successor if something happened to Xavier. All Sage was a spy, she didn't particpate with the taskforce or anything, she was just a wildcard. So I think you can have it both ways.
Exactly. Considering her the 'First X-Man' would be like considering Magneto to be one also.

[Uncle Nobs]

Y'all better back up 'fore y'all get smacked up.

We 'bout to get wild up in here.

My boy Cyke be a playa.

Da first.

Sage be a retcon mofo bitch.

Dawg.
can somebody translate that to english for me?
I say thee nay! Hearken to me, disciples, for mine own vision is unclouded by falsehoods, blasphemies, and curses most black!

Wisdom be the order of the day.

Verily, yon Summers lad be the one true inheritor of the mage's legacy, as surely as if he were the elder's own progeny. By honor born and by glories hard-earned, the mantle be his!

Wast he not the first of his kind, e'er destined to be so?

"Sage"? I thinkest not. Assuredly, "Unsage" tickles thy ribs with more candor and wit, mayhap?

Dragon.

[curefreak]

this thread has really turned the corner into the twilight zone....

[Frodo-X]

I say thee nay! Hearken to me, disciples, for mine own vision is unclouded by falsehoods, blasphemies, and curses most black!

Wisdom be the order of the day.

Verily, yon Summers lad be the one true inheritor of the mage's legacy, as surely as if he were the elder's own progeny. By honor born and by glories hard-earned, the mantle be his!

Wast he not the first of his kind, e'er destined to be so?

"Sage"? I thinkest not. Assuredly, "Unsage" tickles thy ribs with more candor and wit, mayhap?

Dragon.

Finally, someone I can understand!

Tell me Nobs, woulds't thou agree with Arrjay's appraisal of the situation? Or do you feel in your soul that he hath made a grievous error in judgement?

[Wind-Breaker]

Finally, someone I can understand!

Tell me Nobs, woulds't thou agree with Arrjay's appraisal of the situation? Or do you feel in your soul that he hath made a grievous error in judgement?

This is the number one reason I never read Thor books, my puny mind can't comprend such linguistics.

Now back on subject, who did Sage side with after the Deadly Crisis aftermath, Xavier or Scott?

[Uncle Nobs]

Tell me Nobs...
Eh. I love the concept of the retcon, but Claremont didn't have to make her the first.

He also needed to provide some reasoning for the gaping holes Syzygy pointed out. I think they're correctable, but the effort it would take would just make the original sloppiness of the retcon that much more apparent.

Or not. I don't know. Maybe someone could tell an intriguing story about just what she and Xavier were up against (Bogan?) and why they couldn't let the X-Men catch on at all, even if it meant sacrificing them.

Like I said, I love the concept, hate the execution. I don't think she's "goth". I can think of a few Eastern European women that remind me of her. I'd like to see her powers more clearly defined, too.

[DDM]

First, just what was Tessa’s mandate?

In X-Treme X-Men #3, the X-Bard himself, Chris Claremont, tells us what Tessa's mission was:



This is straight from Claremont’s own narrative. He’s telling us what Tessa’s mission was in clear, straightforward--even, authoritative--terms: “report everything she learned”.

“Report everything she learned”, “report everything she learned,” “report everything she learned.”

Tessa had to know or have the knowledge to report it in the first place as I will explain below.


1) Warhawk bugs Cerebro in Uncanny #110. Yet in Uncanny #129, we see that the bug is still functioning, and Shaw and others are spying on Xavier audio-visually. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier of this? It was her job to report everything she learned.

Tessa is obviously unaware of the Hellfire Club's plan to bug Cerebro. The Hellfire Club also make an exact copy of the Xavier's Danger Room & Cerebro for Emma Frost's Massachusettes Academy. Frost uses the Hellfire Club's copy of Cerebro to form the Hellions & recruit Firestar.

2) Frost outfits Mastermind with the mindtap mechanism to corrupt Jean Grey and convert her to evil. Frost is Shaw’s agent, and Shaw would have consulted Tessa on the matter. Wouldn’t Tessa have contacted Xavier and said, “Mastermind is tampering with Grey’s psyche”? It was her job to report everything she learned.

Tessa is not aware of the Hellfire Club's plan to subvert Phoenix. She is not present in Uncanny X-Men #129-131.

3) In Uncanny #132 Cyclops learns, too late, that Mastermind has joined the Hellfire Club. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier? It was her job to report everything she learned.

Tessa's double agent activity is far deeper, to find the source of the Hellfire Club's evil who is the Shadow King. Exposing Mastermind would blow her cover. It's not worth the deed.

4) In Uncanny #132, Colossus hits Shaw, not once, but twice. If Tessa was Xavier’s spy, wouldn’t Xavier know the specific nature of Shaw’s absorption power? It was her job to report everything she learned.

Tessa is meant to be a spy. Helping the X-Men at the juncture would compromise her mission.

5) In a later issue, Uncanny #151, Frost and Shaw lure Storm into a trap, and Frost exchanges bodies with Storm in order to steal her powers and capture the X-Men totally by surprise. The plan works. Only Amanda Sefton’s previously hidden sorcerous powers manage to save everybody’s lives. But Tessa would have known of this plan, and warned Xavier. It was her job to report everything she learned.

I don't think Sebastian Shaw tells Tessa of his every plan to defeat the X-Men. He did not tell Tessa about the Hellfire Club's plan to subvert Phoenix into the Black Queen.

6) New Mutants #14 (or thereabouts) Kitty Pryde goes on as trip to the Massachusetts Academy with Doug Ramsey. She and Xavier both believe Frost is still in a coma. Xavier is so sure this is the case, he takes the team out searching for aliens (the Beyonder) rather than stick around and back Pryde up. But wouldn’t Tessa have told him that Frost had awakened? It was her job to report everything she learned.

I think you're being facicious. A spy does not report everything in details for fear of being exposed (especially with the presence of a powerful telepath, Emma Frost, the White Queen).

(Some fans believe Tessa’s mission was primarily or solely to be a sleeper in regard to ferreting out the Shadow King [or Bogan]. This is an incorrect hypothesis. Never mind that Xavier still believes SK to be dead as far as Uncanny #117, well after Tessa’s all trained and in the field! Her mission was to report everything she learned.

The Shadow King took on a more aggressive role than remain in the shadows with Chris Claremont's big story when the Shadow King had infiltrated the US government, the Hellfire Club, & taken over the Muir Island X-Men. The Shadow King is the primary reason Magneto renounced his membership with the Hellfire Club in Uncanny X-Men #275. It makes perfect sense for the Shadow King to be the source of the Hellfire Club's evil.



The primary problem I have with the “Tessa As Spy” scenario is that it makes a mockery of what I see as the Marvel Comics trademark, namely, the believability of the characters. That means characters with motivation and personalities that are explicable, that do make sense. Behavior that can be understood.

If Xavier has prior knowledge of the Hellfire Club, but he sends his team unwittingly into a deadly ambush for absolutely no gain whatsoever, what does that say about his personality and motivations? Does he want his team to get killed?

If Tessa is Xavier’s spy at the Hellfire Club, but she never warns him when the X-Men are about to be attacked, what does that say of her personality and motivations?

Editorial said Sage had to go when Psylocke returned in Uncanny X-Men #455. I think Chris Claremont is not done with Sage's character development; therefore, he put her in New Excalibur to answer some of your questions.

[Arrjay]

I'd like to see her powers more clearly defined, too.

Amen to that.

[Joe Acro]

Tessa is meant to be a spy. Helping the X-Men at the juncture would compromise her mission.

It would have compromised her mission to tell the X-Men about Shaw's power? How so? Would Shaw automatically assume the information came from within the Club? And even so, would he assume Tessa was responsible?

[DDM]

It would have compromised her mission to tell the X-Men about Shaw's power? How so? Would Shaw automatically assume the information came from within the Club? And even so, would he assume Tessa was responsible?

In X-Treme X-Men, Chris Claremont reveals Xavier already knew Sebastian Shaw & possibly knew his mutant power. Tessa was Xavier's wild card to keep an eye from within the secret Hellfire Club & keep tabs on Shaw.

[Joe Acro]

So if Xavier already knew his power, why didn't he tell his students?

[Beast]

So if Xavier already knew his power, why didn't he tell his students?
Why didn't he tell them when he faked his death? Why didn't he tell them the countless other times about his secret agendas and such. It's Xavier, he's not exactly the most open guy about everything. ;)

[Syzygy]

Tessa had to know or have the knowledge to report it in the first place as I will explain below.

DDM, you've explained absolutely nothing.

We had a thread debating this, and every one of your answers and explanations came up short, both in logic, and in facts.

Here is the thread where this isssue was discussed--with much greater depth and thoroughness than the convoluted conjectures you've invented to justify one of the most ill-thought out retcons in Marvel history. If not the worst:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=121729

DDM, you are exceedingly disingenuous. Every one of your attempted repairs of this sorry retcon has already been addressed.

Perhaps later I'll find the energy to "cut and paste" some of what's been said there--numerous times--back here. Until then:

Tessa's double agent activity is far deeper, to find the source of the Hellfire Club's evil who is the Shadow King. Exposing Mastermind would blow her cover. It's not worth the deed.

OH MY GOD! Did you at all comprehend the post I put up in this thread?

We know exactly what Tessa's task was: to report everything she learned.

CLAREMONT TELLS US THIS IN X-TREME X-MEN #3!!!!!


First, just what was Tessa’s mandate?

In X-Treme X-Men #3, the X-Bard himself, Chris Claremont, tells us what Tessa's mission was:

"Tessa’s mission was much the same, to serve as Shaw’s shadow and report everything she learned to her own mentor, the founder of the X-Men, Charles Xavier."

This is straight from Claremont’s own narrative. He’s telling us what Tessa’s mission was in clear, straightforward--even, authoritative--terms: “report everything she learned”.

“Report everything she learned”, “report everything she learned,” “report everything she learned.”

Stop making stuff up. Claremont himself tells us what her mission was in the text. Fan-based rumor and your own imaginings count for nothing. Work with the text.

As for "Tessa was not aware," "Tessa didn't know," "Tessa was out of the loop,"---AGAIN AND AGAIN? IN EACH OF THESE INSTANCES?

BAH!

First, she's one of the most intelligent beings on the planet, she has telepathy and other powers, and Shaw trusted her enough to rely on her when he launched his coup again the former ruler of the HFC, Brickman. That little short in the back of Classic X-Men shows how much Shaw relies upon her. But for every one of the numerous oversights in the retcon, suddenly, Shaw's freezing his human computer out of the loop rather than rely upon her to help him plan out his attacks against the X-Men--which is exactly the sort of task he'd use a human computer for.

In addition, DDM, you'd paint Sage as an incompetent bimbo. Whenever--WHENEVER--something in the HFC is going down as against the X-Men, in your imagination, she's wholly ignorant. THIS ISN'T CONSISTENT AT ALL WITH THE SUPER-COMPETENT MUTANT WE'VE ALL SEEN IN X-TREME X-MEN.

In short, you comments are conjecture, and they've already been refuted in the aforementioned thread.

[Syzygy]

UncannyXMen.net speculates her lack of warning was connected to the X-Men being believed to be dead and Xavier's time in space....

Xavier's going away into space actually serves to expose the invalidity of the retcon, not repair it.

When Xavier leaves for space Lilandra tells him, "There is nothing for you here, my darling. You have done your share and more--let others bear this burden!"

What about Sage? Is she nothing? His last "working" student--and he leaves for space with her undercover, in a dangerous situation? Charles is really taking Lilandra literally; it's Tessa's turn to "bear this burden", albeit without Xavier for backup.

And while she's at the HFC and Xavier's off in space, who does she report to? Who extracts her if her cover is blown? What purpose can she serve at the HFC with the X-Men dead and her spymaster off in space?

By this reading, Charles Xavier simply abandons her. She becomes the spy who can never come in from the cold. She has no one to report to, no one to extract her, no one to vouch for her true loyalties and allegiance. Xavier literally hangs her out to dry and throws her away with the trash.

And this is a man who cares about his students? His ONLY in field student (to his knowledge)...and he just leaves her to the wolves?

Bah!

As to those who believe her true mission was to expose the Shadow King--yes, DDM, I'm talking to you--wouldn't that mission still be on? Looks like it wasn't too important after all, since Chuckie just walks away from it, leaving poor Tessie to get gobbled up by the big bad Shadow King.

Which, of course, proves that exposing the Shadow King couldn't have been her mission at all....

And by the way, in Uncanny #117, Xavier tells Lilanddra that Amahl Farouk is dead. THIS IS LONG AFTER TESSA IS TRAINED AND IN THE FIELD:


XAVIER: I was in his mind when he died. It was like a guided tour of Hell."


SO...NO SPECIAL MISSION TO FERRET OUT THE SHADOW KING:

1) Claremont tells us Tessa's mission was to "report everything she learned."

2) If the Shadow King mission existed, and if it was so all-important, Xavier wouldn't have gone into space. He would stay on Earth and receive Tessa's intelligence reports, awaiting the time to duel his old foe again for the fate of Earth.

3) Xavier tells Lilandra in Uncanny #117 that he believes he killed Farouk long, long, ago...way before he trained Tessa and sent her in the field. Since he still believes it as of #117, Tessa's mission can't have to do with the SK.

So, DDM: No special mission to ferret out the Shadow King.

And this is just one more problem with this horrid, horrid retcon. As the aforementioned thread reveals, the rabbit hole goes much, much deeper than this.

[Mikl C]

Heh. Flawless argument, well presented. Kudos Syzygy.

[jarrod]

There's definitely issues with Tessa's retconned origin, but considering the scale of established canon we're looking at, it's surpringly clean overall. Certainly much moreso than any of the other continuity/logic clusterfucks in these "Pick Your Retcon" topics (Jean/Phoenix, Psylocke/Revanche, Lorna/Magnus, etc).

Obviously the Tessa retcon would take some cleaning up, but it can make perfect sense with just a little tweaking. No retcon's going to hold up under the microscopic, literal examinations that fandom demands... hell, people even had major issues with Bru's Alex/Lorna exchange in last month's Uncanny. With comic history, you have to be open to interpretation of events I think, rather than literal analysis... that's probably why I like Claremont and Morrison so much, they leave things relatively wide open.

[DDM]

As to those who believe her true mission was to expose the Shadow King--yes, DDM, I'm talking to you--wouldn't that mission still be on? Looks like it wasn't too important after all, since Chuckie just walks away from it, leaving poor Tessie to get gobbled up by the big bad Shadow King.

Which, of course, proves that exposing the Shadow King couldn't have been her mission at all....

And by the way, in Uncanny #117, Xavier tells Lilanddra that Amahl Farouk is dead. THIS IS LONG AFTER TESSA IS TRAINED AND IN THE FIELD:



SO...NO SPECIAL MISSION TO FERRET OUT THE SHADOW KING:

1) Claremont tells us Tessa's mission was to "report everything she learned."

2) If the Shadow King mission existed, and if it was so all-important, Xavier wouldn't have gone into space. He would stay on Earth and receive Tessa's intelligence reports, awaiting the time to duel his old foe again for the fate of Earth.

3) Xavier tells us in Uncanny #117 that he believes Farouk dead long after Tessa is trained and in the field.

So, DDM: No special mission to ferret out the Shadow King.

And this is just one more problem with this horrid, horrid retcon. As the aforementioned thread reveals, the rabbit hole goes much, much deeper than this.

However, read The New Mutants #6-7. Xavier does not believe Karma is dead; however, he allows the other New Mutants to believe she is. Why? Xavier senses a familiar presence. He does not make his opinions known, but it seems he knows the Shadow King is involved.

The Shadow King forms the Gladiators--who first appear in Beauty & the Beast #1-4--then Claremont reveals that Amahl Farouk is responsible for their formation in The New Mutants #29-31. Shadowcat, Rachel Summers, Lila Cheney & Dazzler all play important roles to help Magik & Cannonball free Magma & Sunspot from the the Gladiators. Now, lets go back to The New Mutants #28, Empath, who feels scorned by the White Queen by having his mutant powers inhibited, gets his "revenge" on the New Mutants--Sunspot & Magma--to be kidnapped by the Gladiators. How does the Hellfire Club know of the Gladiators? Even Emma Frost's secretary knows of the Gladiators. I believe this is Claremont's groundwork for laying that the Shadow King has connections to the Hellfire Club.

[tetragene]

The Shadow King forms the Gladiators--who first appear in Beauty & the Beast #1-4--then Claremont reveals that Amahl Farouk is responsible for their formation in The New Mutants #29-31. Shadowcat, Rachel Summers, Lila Cheney & Dazzler all play important roles to help Magik & Cannonball free Magma & Sunspot from the the Gladiators. Now, lets go back to The New Mutants #28, Empath, who feels scorned by the White Queen by having his mutant powers inhibited, gets his "revenge" on the New Mutants--Sunspot & Magma--to be kidnapped by the Gladiators. How does the Hellfire Club know of the Gladiators? Even Emma Frost's secretary knows of the Gladiators. I believe this is Claremont's groundwork for laying that the Shadow King has connections to the Hellfire Club.


But in Beauty & The Beast the Gladiators had no affiliation with the Shadow King. They were formed by a mutant who claimed to be Dr Doom's son. The Gladiators by that point seemed to be pretty well known (and popular, even) with the wealthy and powerful--why wouldn't Emma--who is also rich and powerful (or the Hellfire Club in general), know about it?

[DDM]

But in Beauty & The Beast the Gladiators had no affiliation with the Shadow King. They were formed by a mutant who claimed to be Dr Doom's son. The Gladiators by that point seemed to be pretty well known (and popular, even) with the wealthy and powerful--why wouldn't Emma--who is also rich and powerful (or the Hellfire Club in general), know about it?

Chris Claremont reveals the Shadow King is the creator behind the scenes of the Gladiators in The New Mutants #29-34. I believe Dazzler is involved due to the Beauty & the Beast #1-4.

Even in the Hellfire Club, the Inner Circle is a secret club. The Shadow King is again working behind the scenes with the Hellfire Club not being aware that he is the source of the Hellfire Club's evil. The Hellfire Club is not aware that they are pawns of the Shadow King.

[Madrox84]

I kinda like the retcon, but it does cause quite a few continuity problems... I liked Sage during the first two or three story-arcs of X-Treme but she got a bit annoying after a while.

[sherlockbones]

i am seriously questinoning if "stupid retcons" aren´t a secret law of monthly publishing. you can only stretch story telling so far. i think i like none of the revelations from the last 10 years.
that doesn´t mean there haven´t been good stories made possible with these revelations, but generally it is all more like "what if?" going canon.

logan "i wanna be james now"
kurt "evil demon daddy" wagner
emma "i can change" frost
tessa "D'Bari wasn´t my fault, i had other orders"
...

get used to it, they won´t rest till everybody has 3 longlost relatives returning with superpowers and a vendetta, everybody´s origin involving evil, transdimensional, timewalking aliens, every mass murderer is redeem by alice-in-wonderland-logic.

as long as they re creative in the process i might enjoy the ride. even stupidity can be amusing

[Syzygy]

There's definitely issues with Tessa's retconned origin, but considering the scale of established canon we're looking at, it's surpringly clean overall. Certainly much moreso than any of the other continuity/logic clusterfucks in these "Pick Your Retcon" topics (Jean/Phoenix, Psylocke/Revanche, Lorna/Magnus, etc).

Obviously the Tessa retcon would take some cleaning up, but it can make perfect sense with just a little tweaking. No retcon's going to hold up under the microscopic, literal examinations that fandom demands...

The other three retcons that you mention don't require that we assume that Xavier, the X-Men, the Hellfire Club, and Sage are all abominably incompetent...and that's just for starters:


Yeah, the spy angle doesn't work because The X-Men never gained any advantage having Tessa as an inside person. In all respects, the retcon makes Charles Xavier, The X-Men and The Hellfire Club look stupid.

In the 20 years between the introduction of The Hellfire Club and Sage joining The X-Men, there was not even a justifiable possibility showing that Xavier had a mole working for them. I never heard of a spy who never reported anything to her supervisor the way Sage did from 1979 through 2001.

I find the "microscopic, literal examinations" comment to be exceedingly disingenuous, at the least. As a debating tactic, it's sometimes called "belittling"--trying to make an oppopnent's objections seem less serious than they are by mocking them. But the effects of the Sage retcon are not merely on an essential, core element of X-Men history. They also have weighty implications as to the basic motivations and personalities of the characters involved:

The primary problem I have with the “Tessa As Spy” scenario is that it makes a mockery of what I see as the Marvel Comics trademark, namely, the believability of the characters. That means characters with motivation and personalities that are explicable, that do make sense. Behavior that can be understood.

If Xavier has prior knowledge of the Hellfire Club, but he sends his team unwittingly into a deadly ambush for absolutely no gain whatsoever, what does that say about his personality and motivations? Does he want his team to get killed?

If Tessa is Xavier’s spy at the Hellfire Club, but she never warns him when the X-Men are about to be attacked, what does that say of her personality and motivations?

What about other characters, like Cyclops, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler. Suppose they’re sitting around the Mansion talking about their old “capers”, when Nightcrawler speaks up: “Scott, Logan, there’s something I’ve been meaning to ask you. If Charles had Tessa working as a spy within the Hellfire Club’s Inner Circle, why is it that the Club always blindsided us?”

Are Cyclops, Logan, and Kurt too dense to spot this problem, too stupid to ask this question?

If suddenly, in 2001, Claremont tells us that Tessa was secretly Xavier's spy all along--a MAJOR REVISION in X-Men history, fans are certainly going to return to their back issues and see if this could possibly be the case. And it can't be the case--for reasons too great, obvious, and numerous to be dismissed as "microscopic":


1) Warhawk bugs Cerebro in Uncanny #110. Yet in Uncanny #129, we see that the bug is still functioning, and Shaw and others are spying on Xavier audio-visually. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier of this? It was her job to report everything she learned.

2) Frost outfits Mastermind with the mindtap mechanism to corrupt Jean Grey and convert her to evil. Frost is Shaw’s agent, and Shaw would have consulted Tessa on the matter. Wouldn’t Tessa have contacted Xavier and said, “Mastermind is tampering with Grey’s psyche”? It was her job to report everything she learned.

3) In Uncanny #132 Cyclops learns, too late, that Mastermind has joined the Hellfire Club. Wouldn’t Tessa have told Xavier? It was her job to report everything she learned.

4) In Uncanny #132, Colossus hits Shaw, not once, but twice. If Tessa was Xavier’s spy, wouldn’t Xavier know the specific nature of Shaw’s absorption power? It was her job to report everything she learned.

5) In a later issue, Uncanny #151, Frost and Shaw lure Storm into a trap, and Frost exchanges bodies with Storm in order to steal her powers and capture the X-Men totally by surprise. The plan works. Only Amanda Sefton’s previously hidden sorcerous powers manage to save everybody’s lives. But Tessa would have known of this plan, and warned Xavier. It was her job to report everything she learned.

6) New Mutants #14 (or thereabouts) Kitty Pryde goes on as trip to the Massachusetts Academy with Doug Ramsey. She and Xavier both believe Frost is still in a coma. Xavier is so sure this is the case, he takes the team out searching for aliens (the Beyonder) rather than stick around and back Pryde up. But wouldn’t Tessa have told him that Frost had awakened? It was her job to report everything she learned.

Given her powers of Computation, Telepathy, and whatever else she’s got, and given her special training by Xavier specifically for this task, she sure did a lousy job of learning and reporting.

If you find these and the many other problems microscopic, perhaps it's because you need a better optometrist?

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

Maybe someone could tell an intriguing story about just what she and Xavier were up against (Bogan?) and why they couldn't let the X-Men catch on at all, even if it meant sacrificing them.

Not a chance, Nobs. There was no "special mission" that required the X-Men to be sacrificed:

1) Claremont tells us Tessa's mission was to "report everything she learned." (X-Treme X-Men #3)

2) If the Shadow King or Elias Bogan mission existed, and if it was so all-important, Xavier wouldn't have gone into space. He would stay on Earth and receive Tessa's intelligence reports, awaiting the time to duel his old foe again for the fate of Earth.

3) Xavier tells Lilandra in Uncanny #117 that he believes he killed Farouk long, long, ago...way before he trained Tessa and sent her in the field. Since he still believes it as of #117, Tessa's mission can't have to do with the SK.

Additionally:

4) There's also a scene in one of the early X-Treme X-Men issues where Tessa shoos a young Betsy Braddock away from the Hellfire Club. Supposedly, Tessa can't risk blowing her cover to save Xavier and the X-Men, yet she'll "risk everything" (Tessa's words) to save an absolute stranger to whom she owes nothing?

5) In the Dark Phoenix Saga, and in the episode where Frost stole Storm's body, Xavier was also attacked and captured. His life was also at risk. So if Tessa and Xavier are working together to stop Bogan or the Shadow King, presumably, Xavier is an essential part of that mission. Tessa/Sage can't stop Bogan or SK herself, so if she let's Xavier be captured and executed, her "true mission" automatically fails.

6) If Tessa's mission to "expose" Bogan (SK, whoever, etc) as the "true evil" behind the Hellfire Club was so important, why did she defect before the job was done and join Storm's X-Team? (Certainly, as Xavier's spy, she wouldn't have quit Shaw's service because Shaw abandoned her; as Xavier's spy, Shaw's loyalty to her--or lack thereof--is irrelevant.)

Nobs: Did you ever get around to reading the original thread:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=121729

Peace,
Syzygy

[Daithi]

4) There's also a scene in one of the early X-Treme X-Men issues where Tessa shoos a young Betsy Braddock away from the Hellfire Club. Supposedly, Tessa can't risk blowing her cover to save Xavier and the X-Men, yet she'll "risk everything" (Tessa's words) to save an absolute stranger to whom she owes nothing?


Claremont actually posted on X-Fan that Sage knew who Psylocke was. He also said that Sage wouldn't want the Hellfire Club (or Bogan) to get their hands on someone from Otherworld. Now as to how Xavier and Sage knew she was from Otherworld is another thing.

[Syzygy]

Claremont actually posted on X-Fan that Sage knew who Psylocke was. He also said that Sage wouldn't want the Hellfire Club (or Bogan) to get their hands on someone from Otherworld. Now as to how Xavier and Sage knew she was from Otherworld is another thing.

Allowing the HFC to get their hands on Betsy is unacceptable--despite the fact that Otherworld has nigh-omnipotent defenders like Merlin and Roma--but allowing both Xavier and the X-Men to be killed is acceptable?:confused:

Sounds like Chris recognized he'd made a blooper in having Sage act that way, and tried to cover for it. And it's hard to believe the HFC or Bogan could actually menace someone as nigh-omnipotent as Merlin and Roma.

If Chris actually had this reason down at the time--if he didn't invent it after the fact to patch a hole--why not include it in the writing of X-Treme to begin with?

And if he knew "Tessa" was going to be a spy all along in Dark Phoenix Saga (I don't believe that), why not include that in the writing all along with clues and foreshadowing and hints?

In order to determine whether or not it's reasonable for Tessa to be Xavier's spy at all, we should look at the pre-2001 continuity. There's not a single indicator at all that Xavier had a mole there; indeed, every indicator points away from it. The HFC took down the X-Men--including Xavier himself--time and time again.

I don't look forward to more retconned stories with Sage at the center, attempting to retroactively justify--via flashbacks--her new, central role in X-Men mythology. Likely, it will simply dig a deeper hole.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Daithi]

Allowing the HFC to get their hands on Betsy is unacceptable--despite the fact that Otherworld has nigh-omnipotent defenders like Merlin and Roma--but allowing both Xavier and the X-Men to be killed is acceptable?:confused:


In fairness it seem less of a risk for Sage to take. The Hellfire Club probably didn't know anything about Psylocke whereas they'd know Xavier and the X-Men. Thus Psylocke's disappearance wouldn't cause a big alert. Also Betsy was going undercover for STRIKE at the time so Tessa simply got rid of a spy.



And it's hard to believe the HFC or Bogan could actually menace someone as nigh-omnipotent as Merlin and Roma.


Roma and Merlin aren't invincible. Mastermind (the robot), Wanda and Jim Jaspers have all caused damage to it. Given Bogan's ability to take over even high-level telepaths and telepathy is the main means of communication in Otherworld then he might make a reasonable attempt.


If Chris actually had this reason down at the time--if he didn't invent it after the fact to patch a hole--why not include it in the writing of X-Treme to begin with?


Given that Psylocke may was supposed to be the mystery telepath under Bogan's control it's possible the Hellfire/Otherworld connection would have been made there. As her resurrection was scrapped Claremont decided to post his intention?

[Novaya Havoc]

Sage's retcon = horrendous.

Mostly because I flippin' hate retcons that make them "Xavier's FIRST FIRST FIRRRST! student" in order to legitimize a new character.

It's weak. Let me like Sage on her own merits (which are very few) than try to force the readership into embracing her by retrospectively weaving her into the fabric before Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, flippin JEAN GREY, and so on.

[Daithi]

It's weak. Let me like Sage on her own merits (which are very few) than try to force the readership into embracing her by retrospectively weaving her into the fabric before Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, flippin JEAN GREY, and so on.

Actually on that. Hasn't it been retconned that Wolverine practically knew everyone before they were X-Men. Didn't he and Xavier meet years before in Korea or something? Bah!

I always thought that it might have made sense if Tessa was Magneto's spy. You could dismiss all the "why didn't Sage do x" as Magneto didn't care about the X-Men at that point. Then eventually when Magneto briefly turns into a good guy you have Sage following him and staying as one. Or Sage does it on her own. I only mention this because I remember Magneto saying something like "I'll destroy the Hellfire Club and their Shadow King" and thought "how does Magneto know that the Shadow King is in the Hellfire Club?".

[Novaya Havoc]

Actually on that. Hasn't it been retconned that Wolverine practically knew everyone before they were X-Men. Didn't he and Xavier meet years before in Korea or something? Bah!

This occurrence isn't uncommon. Not just with Wolverine, but Jean Grey and then Storm were retconned as knowing Xavier earlier and earlier.

The difference is that these characters had their retcons after they were firmly entrenched as X-Men, and not after the bulk of their continuity was them -- as a villain.

Sage is different, because almost immediately after she was brought into the X-Men, she was retconned as having been his first student and long-time ally simply to legitimize her status as an X-Man. You can't say the same for Wolverine, Jean, or Storm.

It's all about the context.

[Daithi]

It's all about the context.

Point taken but it makes stuff like Xavier trying to give Logan detention or whatever even funnier.

[jarrod]

The other three retcons that you mention *snips* If you find these and the many other problems microscopic, perhaps it's because you need a better optometrist?

Peace,
Syzygy
Speaking of the fanboy microscope. :p

None of the other retcons really delve back as far as Sage's... their implications all deal with comparably recent events (mainly 80s/90s continuity versus continuity stretching back to the 60s) and they're still messier by large. Any strictly literal examination of any of these retcons is going to bring up a host of problems, that's par for the course with almost any retcon really... though I'd take issue with your specific evaluation of the events. Human error's a very real thing, so are shifting priorities, so is hindsight, so is deep cover. And really, any of these "reasons too great, obvious, and numerous" are surprisingly simple to rectify with just those concepts alone.

The Sage retcon isn't the only source of evidence pointing to Xaiver knowing of the HFC before their encounters with the X-Men. This evidently fundamental problem is shared by quite a few other stories, Deadly Genesis most recently and notably. Kurt specifically has commented on Sage's history before, goading her apparent turn during End of History phrased as a "return to form". Sage's actual allegiance to Xaiver's very questionable as well. Hell, Xaiver's proven himself quite the questionable bastard too, it's not like he hasn't sent X-Men head first into traps or withheld vital information from them before, indeed there's really no telling what information he might've withheld rather than placing the entirely of that burden on Tessa. Though we've gone over this before too actually, do I really need to dredge up my old quotes in response? Do I really need poke holes in your specific "reasons too great, obvious, and numerous" line by line? Do I really need to spell out easily logical alternative theories for you?

And frankly, when it comes to you and and Sage, I find any commentry tends to be seething with bias. Not that i'm the most evenhanded here, I tend to like and support the retcon, the character and even Mr. Claremont's work generally, but you're pretty clearly seeing what you want to here and not giving any leeway for much else. No offense, but "can't be the case" is a rather heavy caveat to prove and really, you're not living up to that claim. I'm sorry for any belittling you might've felt, but I'd say that's more a sign of your own defensiveness than any concerted strategy on my part. This sort of continuity nitpicking, intolerant super-criticism is a more general problem I've noticed (it usually hits Morrison's run hardest unfortunately), I don't mean to direct it at any one person.

[Syzygy]

All right, I’ve got the scene. It’s from X-Treme X-Men #3.



TESSA: Child, you dance here with devils. You fancy yourself a player...when in fact you are a mere toy.

Compared to them, my power is nothing. Yet see what even I can do?

They are evil Betsy. They delight in corruption--especially a soul as brilliant and innocent as yours.

I risk everything to tell you this. Now show me you have the wisdom to match your courage.

NARRATIVE: If only she’d had the chance to do the same for Phoenix.

From the text, the reason Tessa turned away Psylock was because Tessa couldn’t bear to see Betsy’s “bright soul” corrupted. She didn’t want to see Betsy fall like “Phoenix” did.

No mention of Otherworld, either in speech or narrative. Looks too me like Chris just made that stuff up in order to plug a hole. Supposedly, we’re to assume by Chris’ post that Xavier not only knew of Otherworld, but had the foresight to give Tessa special orders to the effect that if anyone from Otherworld comes to the Club, shoo them away?

Forgetting the implausibility of that, why? Otherworld has nigh-omnipotent defenders in Merlin and Roma? More importantly, Psylock has been possessed, mind controlled, rebuilt, and corrupted multiple times: the Hand, Crimson Dawn, Mojo...the multiverse wasn’t in any way threatened despite the fact that this occurred--repeatedly. The Hand is much older than the HFC, and controlled by age-old demonic forces (Wolverine: Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD), and neither they nor the Mandarin gained no special advantage from Betsy’s heritage.

Of course, this whole, entire flashback scene has been constructed to fill a hole. Namely, “What did Tessa ever accomplish at the HFC, since she certainly never warned Xavier or the X-Men of any attacks.”

Chris really jumped the shark when he introduced Sage as “the secret first X-Man.” He could simply have had Tessa defect from the Club, or introduced Sage as an entirely new character. Instead, he chose to rewrite an essential element of X-Men history, making things even more over-complex than they already were, with additional hyper-contradictions.

Peace,
Syzygy

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Was she the first student? I dont think that was ever said. She was a secret student, we know that.

[Syzygy]

Roma and Merlin aren't invincible. Mastermind (the robot), Wanda and Jim Jaspers have all caused damage to it. Given Bogan's ability to take over even high-level telepaths and telepathy is the main means of communication in Otherworld then he might make a reasonable attempt.

Roma and Merlin aren't invincible, yes, but I've always placed them at about "Dormammu-level"--a step above Dr. Strange, but below guys like the Grandmaster and the Stranger.

(Saying Roma and Merlin are less powerful than Wanda, Jaspers--and maybe Jamie--hardly counts as a black mark against them!:D Mastermind the Supercomputer I don't know about.)

If Otherworld is vulnerable to telepathy, then, yes, there's at least some rationale for keeping Bogan (presumably) away from it.

Still, if this was CC's rationale at the time, I find it extremely frustrating that instead of mentioning it, he just spouted some guff about saving Betsy's beautiful soul from corruption.... If CC doesn't write what he means, how can I understand what's going on?

I'm no expert on Otherworld...but wouldn't Roma have comprehensive files on Bogan and all its alternate-earth counterparts? Wouldn't she therefore already know of Bogan, his capabilities, his counterparts capabilities, and have countermeasures prepared for the threat of him?

Peace,
Syzygy

[jarrod]

Maybe Tess was just hot for Betts' "beautiful soul"? This is Claremont after all. ;)

[Daithi]

I'm no expert on Otherworld...but wouldn't Roma have comprehensive files on Bogan and all its alternate-earth counterparts? Wouldn't she therefore already know of Bogan, his capabilities, his counterparts capabilities, and have countermeasures prepared for the threat of him?


Not really. Roma can be like that but she doesn't have plans for every single person in all realities. Only a "select" few. That's why she has Saturnyne and her Captain Britain Corp as well as Technet.

Imagine this scenario. Psylocke joins the Hellfire Club (wasn't her father a member?). Psylocke is corrupted and Bogan controls her as Betsy is still a telepath. Boglocke travels to Otherworld and takes over people there. It wouldn't take long for Bogan to sieze control of Otherworld to be honest.

I'ld also suggest that there's no way Tessa would ever mention Otherworld to Psylocke because that would drop her cover faster than anything. As I also said it's possible this subplot was dropped when Psylocke didn't come back as Bogan's mystery telepath.

[Syzygy]

I'ld also suggest that there's no way Tessa would ever mention Otherworld to Psylocke because that would drop her cover faster than anything. As I also said it's possible this subplot was dropped when Psylocke didn't come back as Bogan's mystery telepath.

But the narrative could have mentioned it instead of "If only she had the chance to do so for Phoenix." The narrative makes it seem like guilt over Jean is her motive, rather than a tactical maneuver to prevent catastrophe in Otherworld.

I seem to remember from Excalibur that Roma's got comprehensive files on virtually everyone and their counterparts. Since they're always on the look out for "threats to reality", it's hard (for me) to believe she doesn't have a contingency for an hostile omega level telepath on Otherworld.

Like your Magneto/Sage idea. Would have saved a lot of trouble.

Peace,
Syzygy

[sherlockbones]

Hell, Xaiver's proven himself quite the questionable bastard too, it's not like he hasn't sent X-Men head first into traps or withheld vital information from them before, indeed there's really no telling what information he might've withheld rather than placing the entirely of that burden on Tessa.

the general idea behind xavier is that he is a person caring for the people around him and that he is someone who made it his life task to make the world a more peaceful place.
all his actions of superdickery were, imo, storytelling decsions in order to create suspense, or in case of onslaught selling more comics than usual.

damn his catch phrase is "oh no, my x-men are in danger"

so it is ooc to send them into death traps, even if it has been written in canon books.

i can live with sage. i see the need to alter stuff in order to continue telling new stories. but to claim cc planned it all along, that is imho a little naive

[Daithi]

But the narrative could have mentioned it instead of "If only she had the chance to do so for Phoenix." The narrative makes it seem like guilt over Jean is her motive, rather than a tactical maneuver to prevent catastrophe in Otherworld.


I always figured it happened before Jean and Dark Phoenix. Maybe not. However I still think using the narrative would have spoiled the story if Psylocke was going to be Bogan's telepath and that was the plan.


I seem to remember from Excalibur that Roma's got comprehensive files on virtually everyone and their counterparts. Since they're always on the look out for "threats to reality", it's hard (for me) to believe she doesn't have a contingency for an hostile omega level telepath on Otherworld.


Roma doesn't fight directly. She would still need her Captain Britain Corp to defend her. I still think it's a plausible idea based on her and Otherworld's history. Even with the Necrom storyline, Roma and Merlin (kinda) don't interfer and it's left to Excalibur to save Otherworld.

Again I don't think Bogan existed until XXM so this would all be a retcon in any case but based on Excalibur and other stories it's a viable idea. Well the way I think it might happened. Claremont might have other ideas :)

My biggest problem with what Claremont posted is how Sage knew Betsy was from Otherworld in the first place. She can't figure out that Emma Frost bugged the mansion but Betsy comes from Otherworld.

[jarrod]

i can live with sage. i see the need to alter stuff in order to continue telling new stories. but to claim cc planned it all along, that is imho a little naive
Oh, I don't believe it was at all planned from the start or anything... I just don't see the continuity niggles in Sage's retcon as being quite so insurmountable as some maintain.

[darknessatnoon]

I liked the whole Xavier Spy angle. It goes with the secret X-Men theme of Deadly Crisis. As for Sage being the first X-Man, when you really think about it, even if she worked with Xavier before Summers did, Scott in some ways this still the first. He lead the taskforce, he went through all the training, and he was the successor if something happened to Xavier. All Sage was a spy, she didn't particpate with the taskforce or anything, she was just a wildcard. So I think you can have it both ways.

Good point. She was sort of like an X-Consultant.

[Monty_Cristo]

my retcon: Sage and Shortpack are siblings (or just relatives)