Pick Your Retcon 4: Polaris!

[HellFrost]

Throughout the years, it's been said that Lorna Dane is the daughter Magneto never knew he had.

Choice 1: Polaris is not Magneto's daughter.

Originally, when this concept was presented, the final decision was that Polaris was not Magneto's daughter (Uncanny 52). She also has a sister, Zaladane, who has never been stated to be connected to Mangeto. This theory was not majorly visited for years.

Choice 2: Polaris is Magneto's daughter.

Years later, the topic was revisted, citing that while under his tutelige, Lorna stole a blood sample of Magneto's, performed a blood test, and discovered conclusively that she was Magneto's daughter. This theory has been supported in multiple recent runs (including Morrison's and Austen's), and is current continuity.

My choice:

I prefer her to be Magneto's daughter. Honestly? I hate Zaladane. And I like Magneto and Polaris. And as far as I'm concerned, they're cool family. Also, while I know it's not required, I'd like to think someone as powerful as Magneto's powers were pass down through to his children (ie Xavier to Legion, Jean to Rachel, Jean ((well, Maddy template)) to Cable, Banshee and Siryn).

So, start voting!

[Canemacar]

I always liked the idea of her being Magneto's daughter for some reason.

[Alan2099]

I'm not fond of it. For the majority of her apperances she's been in no way connected to him other than similar powers, and cosidring neither of his established children have had the same power, why should that make a differcne. Plenty of mutants have had similiar powers without being related.

I really see no reason to use the idea except for people who want to write stories about her being crazy, and that idea really doesn't fit her character anyway.

[CaptainCanada]

I like Polaris as Magneto's daughter.

I honestly don't find it as big a stretch as the Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver reveal (which asked us to believe that, among other things, Magneto had unknowingly recruited his own kids into the Brotherhood by complete accident). The Zaladane connection never made any sense (they never even bothered to explain it).

[spoon_jenkins]

I prefer Polaris not being Magneto's daughter.

First of all, in the original story the parentage claim was just a cynical ploy to gain her allegiance. I think by retconning the story, you blunt its original meaning. It just complicates things.

Second, I think Polaris and Mags don't have much in common in terms of personality. It feels pretty forced simply based on their powers, because otherwise they don't seem like they could be related.

Third, I think making so characters end being related is so overdone. It makes stuff end up seemingly like a joke because so cliched.

[Frodo-X]

I like her being his daughter. One thing I find amusing, though, is the powers thing. I remember reading that mutants that have children don't necessarily share powers with them, yet a lot of the ones I know of do.

Banshee-Siryn
Jean-Cable
Jean-Rachel
Magneto-Polaris
Xavier-Legion

Also, has there ever been any real development with Polaris and her siblings(Pietro and Wanda)?

[Gene M.]

I never really liked the revelation the Lorna was Magneto's daughter. Had it occurred years earlier, it would have fit better for me. Revealing it when they did made me think that they just didn't have anything to do with Polaris so they pulled out the "is she/isn't she" plot.

[Christopher O]

I really see no reason to use the idea except for people who want to write stories about her being crazy, and that idea really doesn't fit her character anyway.
Being crazy doesn't fit her character? Considering the fact that she's spent a great portion of time under the influence of mind-control and possession, I'd say insanity is pretty appropriate. She can't possibly be stable and outside of Peter David, never really has been.

Anyway, I like her being Magneto's daughter. I'm not particularly fond of the way Chuck Austen handled it, but I see story possibilities that have yet to be explored.

[Affinity]

I don't like this particular retcon at all. Spoon has it right about how it was just that introductory plot that would be on everybody's mind when she's first introduced, and they had to play it up, and that's okay with me, how she WASN'T his daughter. I like to think that while the effects are similar, the nuances of both of their powers should be different. Not just strong/weak, but rather something with the electromagnetic spectrum and something else with the direct fields themselves, you know? A talented writer could pull it off wonderfully, but it's too late for that.

[jmc247]

I don't rightly give a da** if she is or she she isn't as long as they don't simply turn her into "Magneto's daughter". Keeping Polaris her own character is all I care about.

Now that I think about it, I do care about one other thing that they don't re-re retcon her history and make her not Magneto's daughter again so that the next generation of writers can re-retcon it again.

[DDM]

Polaris as Magneto's biological daughter is just lazy writing. Lorna Dane has nothing to do with the X-Men & wants to live a normal life, yet, for her mutant powers, it makes her a pawn for many of the X-Men's enemies from Mesmero, Eric the Red (Davaan Shakari), & Malice. However, Lorna Dane never went insane or crazy from being a pawn. She simply picked up the pieces of her life then moved on as best as she could.

I really don't care for Lorna Dane's recent characterization of being "crazy."

[Omega Alpha]

I would like that she was from the beginning Magneto's daughter, and became one of the most dedicated X-men, not one that is only there from time to time. But right now i don't really care, to be honest.

[Mikl C]

Nah I don't like it. Did we ever find out who her real mother was?

[brundlefly]

#1, hands-down. Polaris as Mags' daughter is lazy, simplistic writing and it opens the door for more pointless retcons like "then who was the mother? what happened to her?" Don't care. Stupid idea. Polaris gains nothing from becoming "Magneto Girl" (in fact, she loses some of her individuality) and Magneto already has two mutant children that he has strained relationships with; he doesn't really have room for a third. Mags' backstory is detailed and colorful enough without fiddling with it to give him a second daughter just because they happen to have similar powers. Plus, what present-day story possiblities does it open up that we haven't already seen? None. He's already tutored her in the use of her powers, back when his own were diminished and he was using hers as "cover." We'd just end up seeing Mags-Pietro/Wanda reduxes with Lorna in place of Magneto's other kids. Boring. Unoriginal. Unnecessary.

[Mystique25]

I went with her not being Magneto's daughter. I like Polaris as just another X-man. Magneto has enough kids, he does not need one more.

[Madrox84]

I never liked the Polaris is Magneto's daughter revelation, it wasn't neccesary and it was poorly handled.

[Effect]

I like the idea of her being Magento's daughter.

[JLarson]

I really like the actual idea, but the execution's been... you know... shitty.

[Flameworthy]

Honestly I can either way. At first when I heard that she was the daughter of Magneto, I hated it, but it eventually grew on me.

If I had to pick one, I'd go with her being Magneto's daughter, more for the fact that she now has connections to Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.

[Valmore]

How about Elfquest Polaris with the huge boobies?

But no space booger, please.

[Affinity]

You know what I like?

How both of them appeared frequently in the same plot in Ultimate X-Men and it wasn't even mentioned once that the similarities in their powers would hint at a relationship.

I miss BKV.

[Mariah]

Honestly I can either way. At first when I heard that she was the daughter of Magneto, I hated it, but it eventually grew on me.

If I had to pick one, I'd go with her being Magneto's daughter, more for the fact that she now has connections to Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.
I like it too, plus mental illness runs in the family, so she'd be great to host this years Thanksgiving dinner.

[CaptainCanada]

I like it too, plus mental illness runs in the family, so she'd be great to host this years Thanksgiving dinner.
With their genetic heritage, I'm counting down to Wiccan or Speed's breakdown.

[Mariah]

With their genetic heritage, I'm counting down to Wiccan or Speed's breakdown.
Speed already shows signs of instability, so I'm guessing when Wiccan goes, it's gonna be a $#!t storm like you wouldn't believe.

[Cayman]

I prefer Lorna to be Magneto's daughter. It's more exciting that the original origin for her, plus it sets us up to one day meet Lorna's mother who is probably fabulous.

[Faded]

I prefer Lorna to not be part of that family tree. As it is, I'm not a fan of retconning in bloodlines (see Nightcrawler, Chamber, Bishop, and to an extent Rachel and TJ, as examples).

But then again, I don't *really* care all that much either way.

[xakko]

I voted no

right now, it hasn't added anything to the character, only diminishing her with an insipid insanity subplot.

i could probably be swayed by a great story revealing her mother, because the romantic life of Mags between Magda and Lee Forrester is hard for me to picture. Nurse Annie is too young, so I'd like to see the details of who loved Magneto.

[caney]

I thought about this one for a while and finally decided that I like Polaris being Magneto's daughter. I came to this conclusion for a couple of reasons.

First, I think it's the better origin for Polaris. There are already many characters that have a mysterious past and don't know who their parents are. I don't find having her parents mysterisouly killed in a plane crash to be very interesting. Having her be the daughter of Magneto and an unknown women still gives at least one mysteriously unknown parent (for those who like that kind of stuff) and also adds to her character by giving her a conflict of loyalty between her blood and her friends (at least while Magneto is a villian). It also adds more to Magneto's character with him having mulitple relations with women in the past.

Next, having Polaris not be Magneto's daughter would take something away from Magneto as a character. He is supposed to be this very powerful and very feared mutant who's power is realatively unique. If Polaris just randomly happens to develop the same powers as Magneto, what's stopping many other mutants from having the same powers? I would rather have Magneto be a very rare, extremely powerful mutant who genetically passed his power down to his daughter.

Oh, and Polaris rocks!

[Babylon23]

I'm waiting for the time when all the x-character are revealed to be related to one another, and that it's all the inbreeding that led to mutants emerging.

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of this retcon. I thought the matter had been well and truly cleared up decades ago, then all of a sudden, it's back again. I agree with the posters who called this lazy writing. It's almost like they couldn't think of anything else to do with Lorna.

Seriously, the Magneto family tree is getting as screwed up as the Summers clan.

[Christopher O]

I agree with the posters who called this lazy writing.
Considering the fact that Grant Morrison was the one who really reintroduced this particular development, I'm going to totally disagree with you guys on this. He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does.

[brundlefly]

I agree with the posters who called this lazy writing.

Considering the fact that Grant Morrison was the one who really reintroduced this particular development, I'm going to totally disagree with you guys on this. He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does.

It's still lazy writing; the fact that some readers defend it simply because it came from the pen of the Mighty Morrison (and give no other criteria other than that for it being a good idea) doesn't make it any less so. His X-Men run was littered with missteps and unnecessary tweaks and changes for the sake of making tweaks and changes. The throwaway retcon of "Oh, and Lorna is Mags' daughter again, but I'm not really going anywhere with this" is one of them.

[Darkwave]

It's still lazy writing; the fact that some readers defend it simply because it came from the pen of the Mighty Morrison (and give no other criteria other than that for it being a good idea) doesn't make it any less so. His X-Men run was littered with missteps and unnecessary tweaks and changes for the sake of making tweaks and changes.

I love Morrison, but I have to agree.

The thing is, most writers' laziness results in a lack of ideas. On the other hand, when Morrison's lazy, it manifests in his throwing out every idea in his head, and not bothering to sort through the wheat from the chaff.

[Christopher O]

It's still lazy writing; the fact that some readers defend it simply because it came from the pen of the Mighty Morrison (and give no other criteria other than that for it being a good idea) doesn't make it any less so.
And the word of fans who can't come up with anything better than "it's lazy writing" doesn't make it so, at all. Now, where does that leave us?

His X-Men run was littered with missteps and unnecessary tweaks and changes for the sake of making tweaks and changes.
This is, of course, entirely your opinion, but I'll answer with something a little less subjective: Grant Morrison rejuvenated the franchise and gave it a clear direction. Regardless of how you pesonally feel about his work, a good deal of the stories being told at Marvel these days come from the house that Morrison built.

The throwaway retcon of "Oh, and Lorna is Mags' daughter again, but I'm not really going anywhere with this" is one of them.
Really? I'd say it made for one of the best stand-alone stories in an X-Men book in years. Did he do anything with it after? No, he didn't, but that's because he told the story he wanted to tell with her, and it was a good one.

[brundlefly]

And the word of fans who can't come up with anything better than "it's lazy writing" doesn't make it so, at all. Now, where does that leave us?

I already gave additional arguments for why I thought Lorna-as-Mags daughter was a poor idea to return to earlier besides it just being lazy. You threw out "but it came from Morisson" as its only defense, as though that was supposed to elicit hushed whispers from the naysayers and we were all to pull a 180 on the idea based on that fact alone.


This is, of course, is entirely your opinion, but I'll answer with something a little less subjective: Grant Morrison rejuvenated the franchise and gave it a clear direction. Regardless of how you pesonally feel about his work, a good deal of the stories being told at Marvel these days come from the house that Morrison built.

They've spent just as much (if not more) time cleaning up the mess that Morrsion made as telling stories from the house that Morrison built.


Really? I'd say it made for one of the best stand-alone stories in an X-Men book in years. Did he do anything with it after? No, he didn't, but that's because he told the story he wanted to tell with her, and it was a good one.

And that is your opinion, just as subjective as mine that reintroducing the concept was lazy and typical scattershot idea-hurling with little followup intended.

[AceOfSpades]

i say leave her as the spawn of Magneto.. just cause its the currently established idea in the comics

[rilokyle]

I actually like this retcon and hope its played upon in the near future, as we have yet to see too much Magento/Polaris moments yet.

This revelation fits into the soap operatic genre that the X-Men falls into so many times. Paternity results being revealed after many years of not knowing the truth....... this stuff happens all the time on daytime soaps....... and I love it!

I have no problem with Lorna being Magneto's daughter- I think it makes things a little more interesting.

[CaptainCanada]

Seriously, the Magneto family tree is getting as screwed up as the Summers clan.
And when she and Alex eventually get hitched, the "M" and Summers family trees will merge, bringing us to a whole new level of incomprehensibility.

[rilokyle]

And when she and Alex eventually get hitched, the "M" and Summers family trees will merge, bringing us to a whole new level of incomprehensibility.
Oh I cannot wait. All hell will break lose!

Sersiously though, I think for the 500th issue of Uncanny X-Men, provided Ed Brubaker is still writing it, we should be treated to the long-awaited marriage between Lorna and Alex. They need to get married now!

[Christopher O]

You threw out "but it came from Morisson" as its only defense, as though that was supposed to elicit hushed whispers from the naysayers and we were all to pull a 180 on the idea based on that fact alone.
That's not entirely correct. Reread the post. I suggested that it was just part of the way he writes. The "hushed whipsers" thing is all you, which is of course your way of trying to invalidate my point, by suggesting that I'm just a Morrison fanboy. Sorry, you'll have to do better than that.

They've spent just as much (if not more) time cleaning up the mess that Morrsion made as telling stories from the house that Morrison built..
What mess would that be? Xorn? I'd say that's just as much Claremont's mess, since his book was the one that retconned the Xorn/Magneto situation. It was mishandled all around. What else? The mutant population? Morrison, Claremont, and Casey all got some decent mileage out of that idea. Eventually, Marvel decided to go in the other direction. That doesn't make Grant's work a mess. If anything, it was a springboard for the new direction.

And that is your opinion, just as subjective as mine that reintroducing the concept was lazy and typical scattershot idea-hurling with little followup intended.
You're right: it is my opinion, but the fact is that he told a complete story involving Polaris and then left the character open for some new possibilities. Considering the fact that she wasn't being utilized by anyone else, I'm not sure what the problem is. He took her out of limbo and made her a centerpiece of the story, which is a rare position for this particular character.

Anyway, you don't have to like what he did, but calling it "lazy" is disrespectful and not really an assessment any of us are in a position to make. For all we know, Morrison could have spent days or weeks trying to make that story work. We just can't know for sure, so call it a bad move or call it an unnecessary move, but don't call it lazy. You have no basis for that kind of judgement.

[gorthon616]

Not Magneto's Daughter. It really doesn't make sense (imo).

[Flameworthy]

Oh I cannot wait. All hell will break lose!

Sersiously though, I think for the 500th issue of Uncanny X-Men, provided Ed Brubaker is still writing it, we should be treated to the long-awaited marriage between Lorna and Alex. They need to get married now!

Oh god, I hope not. I'm still holding out hope that Lorna will come to her senses, and not get back together with Alex. She really does deserve better, and it's time for her to stop depending on a man to validate her (specifically Alex). She just needs to be single for a while.

[Joe Acro]

My opinion on this matter can be found in this thread. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=139739&highlight=Polaris+Magneto+father) I really don't think I convinced anyone of anything in that thing.

[Babylon23]

Considering the fact that Grant Morrison was the one who really reintroduced this particular development, I'm going to totally disagree with you guys on this. He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does.

For the most part, I'm a fan of Morrison. I like a lot of the ideas that he brought into the X-Men, especially the whole Mutant subculture angle. I'd like to have seen Marvel really work with this idea instead of copping out with HoM.

However, the Polaris thing is one of the few things I really disliked about his run. It had already been established that Polaris wasn't related to Magneto, and I didn't think anything more needed to be said on the matter. Unfortunately, Morrison dug this up again, and Austen ran with it in the worst possible way.

[Christopher O]

For the most part, I'm a fan of Morrison. I like a lot of the ideas that he brought into the X-Men, especially the whole Mutant subculture angle. I'd like to have seen Marvel really work with this idea instead of copping out with HoM.

However, the Polaris thing is one of the few things I really disliked about his run. It had already been established that Polaris wasn't related to Magneto, and I didn't think anything more needed to be said on the matter. Unfortunately, Morrison dug this up again, and Austen ran with it in the worst possible way.
Which is totally cool. I'm not disputing anyone's right to dislike this development. I just don't think playing the "lazy" card is appropriate or fair.

[Joe Acro]

Well, he could be considered lazy for not doing the legwork on a character's history.

[Christopher O]

Well, he could be considered lazy for not doing the legwork on a character's history.
That's an assumption on your part and still not a legitimate criticism, since you don't actually know that to be the case.

[Joe Acro]

Well, he's either lazy for not doing the legwork or intentionally trying to confuse us by ignoring continuity. Either way, the story is bad.

[jmc247]

Well, he's either lazy for not doing the legwork or intentionally trying to confuse us by ignoring continuity. Either way, the story is bad.

Have you gone and re-read the issues from 1968. Bobby's evidence was quite lacking, in no way does he prove that Magneto was not her daughter.

[Christopher O]

Well, he's either lazy for not doing the legwork or intentionally trying to confuse us by ignoring continuity. Either way, the story is bad.
Once again, you have absolutely no way to prove that he was lazy or ignoring continuity, especially considering the ambiguity of the whole situation. You don't like the story, which is fine. Criticize it. Stop making assumptions about the writer.

[Joe Acro]

Once again, you have absolutely no way to prove that he was lazy or ignoring continuity, especially considering the ambiguity of the whole situation. You don't like the story, which is fine. Criticize it. Stop making assumptions about the writer.
I really don't want to make assumptions about Morrison, but this story lends itself that way. Did he have an idea for how Polaris's mother/birth fit into Magneto's backstory? Did he have a way for Zaladane to tie into it? These are questions that will probably never get answers. The fact that he introduces this plot point and then doesn't really follow up with anything that could give it credence and makes me question his work. And there's as much ambiguity about Polaris's parents as there are Spidey's. And we don't think he's really the son of someone else in the Marvel universe.

[venuscameback]

I prefer Polaris as not being Magneto's daughter because it emphasises that power-wise she is Magneto-lite. Lorna has found it difficult to exist outside of Magneto's shadow in recent years and this plot development is one big aspect of that.

I like the irony that Magneto tells Lorna he's her father to gain her alleginace, when in reality he's not - while Wanda & Pietro, who he didn't then realise are his kids, initially join his brotherhood.

It's difficult to think of Lorna now and not think of her father - and that will damage her longer-term development because sooner or later writers will hark back to that.

[brundlefly]

by suggesting that I'm just a Morrison fanboy. Sorry, you'll have to do better than that

I'll reiterate that others actually gave legitimate arguments yea or nay on the matter. Yours was simply: "But guys, it was Morrison who introduced it," as though that alone was sufficient defense, followed by praise for his writing style yet no other opinion or argument regarding the concept. If it quacks like a duck.....

"Polaris is Magneto's daughter....again" wasn't even an original idea, just a retcon thrown in for the sake of making yet another whimsical change, with no followup to said change beyond a nonsensical one-shot (Polaris somehow "inherits" the island of Genosha from Mags, who does not "own" the country to begin with, and Toad is his estate executor?). How would one not classify a flip-flop retcon with little (or no) follow-through as "lazy writing?"

[Christopher O]

I'll reiterate that others actually gave legitimate arguments yea or nay on the matter. Yours was simply: "But guys, it was Morrison who introduced it," as though that alone was sufficient defense, followed by praise for his writing style yet no other opinion or argument regarding the concept. If it quacks like a duck.....
Praise for his writing style? All I said was that he throws ideas out there. That's what he does. That's hardly praise. Perhaps you should try reading it just one more time. Then again, perhaps you shouldn't. You're seeing what you want to see and not what's actually there, and I can't imagine that changing.

How would one not classify a flip-flop retcon with little (or no) follow-through as "lazy writing?"
Because you don't have the evidence to support such a statement. It's really that simple.

[brundlefly]

Praise for his writing style? All I said was that he throws ideas out there. That's what he does. That's hardly praise. Perhaps you should try reading it just one more time. Then again, perhaps you shouldn't. You're seeing what you want to see and not what's actually there, and I can't imagine that changing.

What's to reread? Your post was simply "I don't think it was lazy writing because it was from Morrison," as though if it were from someone else, then we could make that assumption.


Because you don't have the evidence to support such a statement. It's really that simple.

The writing itself is the evidence, referring to it as lazy is simply an opinion based on reading it. I never claimed otherwise.

[Christopher O]

What's to reread? Your post was simply "I don't think it was lazy writing because it was from Morrison," as though if it were from someone else, then we could make that assumption.
There was more to my post than that.
Considering the fact that Grant Morrison was the one who really reintroduced this particular development, I'm going to totally disagree with you guys on this. He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does.
Now, where does it say "I don't think it was lazy writing because it was from Morrison"? It doesn't. There's a bit more to it than that. Perhaps you should try a new approach. This one isn't really working for you.

The writing itself is the evidence, referring to it as lazy is simply an opinion based on reading it. I never claimed otherwise.
It's an unfounded opinion that can't be supported. It suggests a lack of effort. Unless you were there with him when he wrote it, how the hell would you know how much effort he put into it? I'm sorry, but "lazy" is not a valid criticism, and I'll continue to question the use of it.

[spoon_jenkins]

It's an unfounded opinion that can't be supported. It suggests a lack of effort. Unless you were there with him when he wrote it, how the hell would you know how much effort he put into it? I'm sorry, but "lazy" is not a valid criticism, and I'll continue to question the use of it.
There certainly was foundation for the opinion held by several people; you just disagreed with their conclusion. I think the constructive thing to do would be to present the reasons for your contrary opinion rather than basically saying that people aren't allowed to disagree. You don't have to have ironclad, indisputable proof of something to hold an opinion. The "unless you were there with him when he wrote it" isn't persuasive, because lots of people use their faculties to form opinions about things they didn't personally witness.

[Christopher O]

There certainly was foundation for the opinion held by several people; you just disagreed with their conclusion. I think the constructive thing to do would be to present the reasons for your contrary opinion rather than basically saying that people aren't allowed to disagree.
What exactly are you talking about? The RetCon or the fact that I have a problem with fans calling writers lazy?

You don't have to have ironclad, indisputable proof of something to hold an opinion. The "unless you were there with him when he wrote it" isn't persuasive, because lots of people use their faculties to form opinions about things they didn't personally witness.
You can hold an opinion, but "lazy" is an insult to the writer, and it's one that's unnecessary and unfair. I called it into question, and no one has really presented any reason why I should find it acceptable, but I've sure done my best to explain why I think it is unacceptable.

[Joe Acro]

I think I'll agree with Chris. Even though I used it, I think the term "lazy" may be too harsh. It says that Morrison isn't hard-working. I think ignorant might be a better word to use.

[gorthon616]

I think I'll agree with Chris. Even though I used it, I think the term "lazy" may be too harsh. It says that Morrison isn't hard-working. I think ignorant might be a better word to use.

I think referring to it as a "cheap trick" is best. This is not to say that the trick cannot be done well and be entertaining, but it's still a cheap trick to make a character meaningful by latching that character in some arbitrary way onto another character.

It's like big explosions or busty chicks in movies. Sure it'll get our attention. Sure it can be worked on for a long time and be done extremely well. Sure the art might as a whole be fantastic. But it's still a cheap trick.

[jarrod]

Where's option 3... that Lorna and Zala were actually artifically bred by Sinister using Magnus' DNA?

[Babylon23]

I think I'll agree with Chris. Even though I used it, I think the term "lazy" may be too harsh. It says that Morrison isn't hard-working. I think ignorant might be a better word to use.

I'd say a good way to phrase it would be to say that Morrison often throws these ideas out there with little concern for past continuity or future implications (which supports both our complaints and Chris' comments). I've found that Morrison often writes series to a logical conclusion (for him), with no consideration of the difficulties writers face in continuing these series. This works beautifully with his creator-owned stuff, and probably works well for those who only jump onto books while he's writing them. It can cause problems for others.

With the Polaris retcon, he wrote it in, but didn't really follow through with anything of significance. At the same time, he ignored both the fact that Polaris had been proven to not be Magneto's daughter, and that Zaladane had been shown to be her sister.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Morrison fan, but I think this tendency can lead to the downfall of many titles he writes.

[Faded]

Oh god, I hope not. I'm still holding out hope that Lorna will come to her senses, and not get back together with Alex. She really does deserve better, and it's time for her to stop depending on a man to validate her (specifically Alex). She just needs to be single for a while.

Agreed (man, am I the anti-shipper or what?!?). As much as I've been re-warming up to Alex again, everytime he's with Polaris I dislike him that much more. I dislike this relationship almost as much as Rambit and Rogue.

[HellFrost]

With the Polaris retcon, he wrote it in, but didn't really follow through with anything of significance. At the same time, he ignored both the fact that Polaris had been proven to not be Magneto's daughter, and that Zaladane had been shown to be her sister.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Morrison fan, but I think this tendency can lead to the downfall of many titles he writes.
Ugh! I hate Zaladane and refuse to acknowledge her as actually existing. And mutants should NOT be able to switch or transfer powers....... otherwise it defeats the purpose of being born that way..........

[That JonoGuy]

Polaris has always been a favorite of mine, but I have never seen her as a daughter of Magneto. I like the idea of her THINKING she's the daughter of Margneto, but notsomuch her actually being one.

[brundlefly]

Now, where does it say "I don't think it was lazy writing because it was from Morrison"? It doesn't. There's a bit more to it than that. Perhaps you should try a new approach. This one isn't really working for you.

But that's exactly the point that comes across in your post. "Considering that the idea was from Grant Morrison, I disagree with you guys that it was lazy writing." That's it; no more, no less. If not, what point were you trying to get across with it, then? Perhaps you should rephrase your argument.


I think the constructive thing to do would be to present the reasons for your contrary opinion rather than basically saying that people aren't allowed to disagree.

Exactly. As opposed to repeating "there was more to my initial post" ad nauseum, an approach that isn't really working for you.

[Christopher O]

But that's exactly the point that comes across in your post. "Considering that the idea was from Grant Morrison, I disagree with you guys that it was lazy writing." That's it; no more, no less. If not, what point were you trying to get across with it, then? Perhaps you should rephrase your argument.
Why rephrase? Everything is in the actual post. If you'd stop ignoring the second half, perhaps you'd understand it.

[HellFrost]

I think that we all have to agree to disagree here. Morrison is one of those writers who throws ideas out there for the sake of throwing out ideas... I think that's what Chris was trying to say. It might not have seemed like lazy writing to him because it seemed like Morrison was just toying with an idea(even if past writers already used it). It also might have been something that Morrison himself liked. This is just my opinions but I see where everyone else is coming from too.

Personally I'd rather have her be apart of the Maximoff family if it means not being created by Sinister or being... ugh... Zaladanes sister. I don't think it gives her any 'crazy' status either. Lorna may have been retconned into being Magnetos daughter but she still is her own character. Not only that but I do not believe that all characters with the same characters are related... do I beleive that some related characters should have the same powers? yes. Mutant powers are in your genes. I accept the fact that some people develop their own unique abilities but others develop their parents due to a dominant X-gene. Magnetos powers are incredibly powerful and it would be incredibly laughable if his powers didn't get inherited down to one of his children even they were retconned in.

Just my opinion.:)

[Babylon23]

Ugh! I hate Zaladane and refuse to acknowledge her as actually existing. And mutants should NOT be able to switch or transfer powers....... otherwise it defeats the purpose of being born that way..........

I'm not a big Zaladane fan either, but that's beside the point. All I was trying to say was that it had been acknowledged that Polaris wasn't related to Magneto and was related to Zaladane, and now she's suddenly related to Magneto again.

So therefore, Zaladane has to be related to Magneto in some way as well.

[Joe Acro]

Personally I'd rather have her be apart of the Maximoff family if it means not being created by Sinister or being...
The adopted sister of Pietro and Wanda? How is this better?

[jmc247]

I don't think it gives her any 'crazy' status either. Lorna may have been retconned into being Magnetos daughter but she still is her own character. Not only that but I do not believe that all characters with the same characters are related... do I beleive that some related characters should have the same powers? yes. Mutant powers are in your genes. I accept the fact that some people develop their own unique abilities but others develop their parents due to a dominant X-gene. Magnetos powers are incredibly powerful and it would be incredibly laughable if his powers didn't get inherited down to one of his children even they were retconned in.


Lorna was crazy for a long time before they ever decided she was Magneto's daughter. If you remember the costume with a skull in it when she was with Magneto and then what happened during her wedding before she knew she was Magneto's daughter. According to Apocalypse she was being driven mad by the same thing driving Mags mad her powers. Which by the way was the same thing the writers said was driving Wanda slowly mad.

Lorna doesn't have to be Scarlet Witch II to be Magneto's daughter. Scarlet Witch has a long history with Magneto going back to her teens and he was clearly far more involved with Magda then Lorna's mother. Which makes it possible for Lorna to still be his daughter, but be nowhere near as connected to him as Wanda or Pietro.

Personally I think if they can come up with a good story for it that doesn't damage Lorna as a character I would be quite happy. In my own opinion Lorna is far closer personality wise to Magneto then either Quicksilver or Wanda.

[HellFrost]

Lorna was crazy for a long time before they ever decided she was Magneto's daughter. If you remember the costume with a skull in it when she was with Magneto and then what happened during her wedding before she knew she was Magneto's daughter. According to Apocalypse she was being driven mad by the same thing driving Mags mad her powers. Which by the way was the same thing the writers said was driving Wanda slowly mad.

Lorna doesn't have to be Scarlet Witch II to be Magneto's daughter. Scarlet Witch has a long history with Magneto going back to her teens and he was clearly far more involved with Magda then Lorna's mother. Which makes it possible for Lorna to still be his daughter, but be nowhere near as connected to him as Wanda or Pietro.

Personally I think if they can come up with a good story for it that doesn't damage Lorna as a character I would be quite happy. In my own opinion Lorna is far closer personality wise to Magneto then either Quicksilver or Wanda.
I didn't think she was actually 'crazy' though..... But I agree with you on the other stuff. I never said she needed a relationship with any of her family but I would like to see more of a story or backstory spawn from this.:)

[jmc247]

When I say crazy I mean her powers can make her mentally unstable. The writers like to use that as a crutch for big and powerful characters like Magneto, Wanda, and Lorna so it gives them plausable deniablity when they have the characters do something totally out of wack for plot purposes.

[HellFrost]

When I say crazy I mean her powers can make her mentally unstable. The writers like to use that as a crutch for big and powerful characters like Magneto, Wanda, and Lorna so it gives them plausable deniablity when they have the characters do something totally out of wack for plot purposes.
ah, lol. I see now.:D Sorry... I thought you thought that I said that myself... But I do agree with you on that too. I don't like considering Lorna as the least bit 'crazy' but I understand what you mean.

[curefreak]

ok if polaris is mags daughter who is polaris mother?
and how the heck can someone have three kids and not even know it until decades later?
i mean the first time i can buy cause it was explained but the second time it just seems like someone couldnt think of an origin for the mother and why shes not around or they just didnt care.
id also to love to find out how she got green hair but i guess thats just one of lifes little mysteries.

[jmc247]

ok if polaris is mags daughter who is polaris mother?


She was a woman who died on a plane. Her history and everything else is unknown at this point. Morrison hinted that Magneto might have killed her, but then again Morrison hated Magneto so if they ever cover Lorna's backstory I am willing to bet they don't touch with a ten foot pole that notion. That say the plane she was on that was magnitized before it fell, my bet is they will say later that it occured because Magneto was in a big fight against X to protect her.

[HellFrost]

ok if polaris is mags daughter who is polaris mother?
and how the heck can someone have three kids and not even know it until decades later?
i mean the first time i can buy cause it was explained but the second time it just seems like someone couldnt think of an origin for the mother and why shes not around or they just didnt care.
id also to love to find out how she got green hair but i guess thats just one of lifes little mysteries.
Well, personally I would rather never find out who the mother is and learn that Magneto was just a man whore in his days lolol. but seriously, it worked for Logan, the whole mystery parents thing, why not Lorna, right?
Plenty of men don't know they have children in the world because of one night stands and I think it's completely plausible that he didn't know.
I'd say the green hair is apart of her own seperate mutation. I don't think it has to be apart of Magnetos pwerset. I know people who have one brown eye and one blue one. Her mother could have possessed a latent mutant gene for turning green but only her hair got turned as to keep her dominant magnetic powers.

[curefreak]

Well, personally I would rather never find out who the mother is and learn that Magneto was just a man whore in his days lolol. but seriously, it worked for Logan, the whole mystery parents thing, why not Lorna, right?
Plenty of men don't know they have children in the world because of one night stands and I think it's completely plausible that he didn't know.
I'd say the green hair is apart of her own seperate mutation. I don't think it has to be apart of Magnetos pwerset. I know people who have one brown eye and one blue one. Her mother could have possessed a latent mutant gene for turning green but only her hair got turned as to keep her dominant magnetic powers.
i guess youre right but having three kids and not knowing about it and then accidently running into them is a strange coincidence especially when magneto is sort of a wanderer.

[HellFrost]

i guess youre right but having three kids and not knowing about it and then accidently running into them is a strange coincidence especially when magneto is sort of a wanderer.
That is very true.

I guess Pietro and Wanda could be rationalized... or retconned... into it being her(as in Wanda) powers that allowed them to meet their father.

Polaris is a very powerful mutant who will always be a target by many villains and super-groups so eventually she was going to join a team anyway. And since it was the X-Men, she had the chance to meet him many times.:)

[curefreak]

That is very true.

I guess Pietro and Wanda could be rationalized... or retconned... into it being her(as in Wanda) powers that allowed them to meet their father.

Polaris is a very powerful mutant who will always be a target by many villains and super-groups so eventually she was going to join a team anyway. And since it was the X-Men, she had the chance to meet him many times.:)
where did he find pietro and wanda anyways? werent they being mobbed by the local gypsy town they lived in and mags came and saved them?
thats a reasonable explanation much more so than polaris im sure polaris relation to mags will be retconned one of these days since the groundwork hasnt been well established.

[HellFrost]

where did he find pietro and wanda anyways? werent they being mobbed by the local gypsy town they lived in and mags came and saved them?
thats a reasonable explanation much more so than polaris im sure polaris relation to mags will be retconned one of these days since the groundwork hasnt been well established.
I'm not sure how he met them. That's research for another day.lol

Maybe it'll be retconned but I'm not sure yet. We need to see how other writers deal with it first, I'd say.

[jmc247]

where did he find pietro and wanda anyways? werent they being mobbed by the local gypsy town they lived in and mags came and saved them?
thats a reasonable explanation much more so than polaris im sure polaris relation to mags will be retconned one of these days since the groundwork hasnt been well established.

What explanation? He found them because of the ruckus their super powers made and his goal at the time was finding super powered beings for his group.

The reason he bumped into Lorna so many times is that she was super powered as well.

Magneto's seed may have been spread alot of places we don't know about yet. :D

[HellFrost]

What explanation? He found them because of the ruckus their super powers made and his goal at the time was finding super powered beings for his group.

The reason he bumped into Lorna so many times is that she was super powered as well.

Magneto's seed may have been spread alot of places we don't know about yet. :D
Lol. That is very very true!:D

[curefreak]

What explanation? He found them because of the ruckus their super powers made and his goal at the time was finding super powered beings for his group.

The reason he bumped into Lorna so many times is that she was super powered as well.

Magneto's seed may have been spread alot of places we don't know about yet. :D
i would love to see magneto and mystique get it on and become partners just like in the movies.

[CaptainCanada]

thats a reasonable explanation much more so than polaris
Magneto didn't find Polaris; Mesmero and that bizarre Robot Magneto that has never been adequately explained attracted a bunch of latent mutants to their HQ to get them to join their army, and they latched onto her because she had the same powers as Magneto did. The real Magneto only ever encountered her after she became an X-Man, and, especially, after they were both members of The Twelve in the late 1990s.

[brundlefly]

Why rephrase? Everything is in the actual post. If you'd stop ignoring the second half, perhaps you'd understand it.

This second half?

"He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does."

"He throws out ideas; that's what he does." :confused: That's what any writer does: come up with ideas for their stories. Morrison, CC, Milligan, Chuck Austen, Joe Casey, whoever. I'm not sure why you keep trying to go back and add layers and subtle nuance to a brief post that disagreed with the concept being "lazy writing," simply on the basis that Morrison had written it. Had your post instead been something along the lines of your later argument that it was disrespectful to call any writer's work "lazy" (which is a good point), that would be another matter. However, your intial post only disagreed with the opinion based on who the writer was, not that you had a problem with calling anyone's writing "lazy."

[curefreak]

how about we call it "underdeveloped" and leave it at that?

[Christopher O]

This second half?

"He throws ideas out there like crazy, and this was just one of them. I don't think it's lazy. It's what he does."

"He throws out ideas; that's what he does." :confused: That's what any writer does: come up with ideas for their stories.
Well, Morrison's the idea guy. That's how he's perceived by his peers. He's been referenced as such at conventions and in interviews. It's what he does. He packs his work with ideas and possibilites, more so than most.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to go back and add layers and subtle nuance to a brief post that disagreed with the concept being "lazy writing," simply on the basis that Morrison had written it.
You mean simply on the basis that Morrison saturates his work with new ideas and possibilities that may or may not be followed up on later. That's the layer that you have continually missed.

Had your post instead been something along the lines of your later argument that it was disrespectful to call any writer's work "lazy" (which is a good point), that would be another matter.
My defense of Morrison led me to a broader point.

However, your intial post only disagreed with the opinion based on who the writer was, not that you had a problem with calling anyone's writing "lazy."
Again, my defense of Morrison (which I still think is legitimate) led me to a broader point. I can't be held responsible for the fact that you've tried to undermine said point by dwelling on my initial response to the situation, which (one more time) is still legitimate.

[rilokyle]

Agreed (man, am I the anti-shipper or what?!?). As much as I've been re-warming up to Alex again, everytime he's with Polaris I dislike him that much more. I dislike this relationship almost as much as Rambit and Rogue.
BOOOOO.

Maybe its the hopeless romantic in me, but I adore them together! What's happened between them has happened, and its done. They still very much love each other and I really want them to get back together. They're like the soap opera couple of the X-Men. They go through so many trials and tribulations, but eventually they find their way back to one another.

Right now they're on good terms. I'm just hoping that they will be on even better terms by the time this storyline wraps up.

[Arrjay]

Magneto ain't fathered no green haired child dawg!

Y'all better recognize.

[brundlefly]

Well, Morrison's the idea guy. That's how he's perceived by his peers. He's been referenced as such at conventions and in interviews. It's what he does. He packs his work with ideas and possibilites, more so than most.

You mean simply on the basis that Morrison saturates his work with new ideas and possibilities that may or may not be followed up on later. That's the layer that you have continually missed.

Again, my defense of Morrison (which I still think is legitimate) led me to a broader point. I can't be held responsible for the fact that you've tried to undermine said point by dwelling on my initial response to the situation, which (one more time) is still legitimate.

You stated a few posts back that I tried to "invalidate your post by suggesting that you're just a Morrison fanboy," yet here you are doing my work for me by not responding to the point in said post that I noted (the fact that you didn't initially argue with calling a writer's work lazy, just with calling Morrison's work lazy), and instead just dole out more fanboy praise and a condescending attitude in place of anything substantial. The point you made later (calling anyone's work lazy is disrespectful) has merit, but your intial post was, quite simply, a fanboy defensive reaction to previous posters in this thread calling Morrison's Polaris retcon lazy, which you then modified as the thread went on to a problem with the idea of calling any writer's work lazy. I'm not trying to invalidate your evolved argument ("calling anyone's work lazy is disrespectful"), but your initial one ("the Polaris retcon isn't lazy because it came from Grant Morrison") is pretty meritless. Frankly, they're two different arguments altogether.

[Christopher O]

You stated a few posts back that I tried to "invalidate your post by suggesting that you're just a Morrison fanboy," yet here you are doing my work for me by not responding to the point in said post that I noted (the fact that you didn't initially argue with calling a writer's work lazy, just with calling Morrison's work lazy), and instead just dole out more fanboy praise and a condescending attitude in place of anything substantial.
Fanboy praise? By calling him the idea guy? That isn't necessarily praise. It's a comment on the way he writes. He throws numerous ideas out--good ones and bad ones--and much of the time he doesn't always follow-up on a great deal of them. Again, that's just a comment on the way he writes. It doesn't make him superior to a writer who takes one or two ideas in an issue or arc and fleshes them out extensively. It's a difference in method and style, and no where in this thread have I said that Morrison's is superior to anyone else's.

The point you made later (calling anyone's work lazy is disrespectful) has merit, but your intial post was, quite simply, a fanboy defensive reaction to previous posters in this thread calling Morrison's Polaris retcon lazy, which you then modified as the thread went on to a problem with the idea of calling any writer's work lazy.
I didn't modify anything. The point came about rather organically.

I'm not trying to invalidate your evolved argument ("calling anyone's work lazy is disrespectful"), but your initial one ("the Polaris retcon isn't lazy because it came from Grant Morrison") is pretty meritless. Frankly, they're two different arguments altogether.
They are two different arguments, but you are still simplifying my initial argument, which comes down to this: calling this plot development lazy, in my mind, isn't accurate because it's very typical of Grant Morrison. It's how he writes. That was my defense of Grant Morrison, but as the thread progressed, I realized that it doesn't matter because "lazy" just isn't an appropriate criticism in general.

Anyway, I think we've seriously exhausted the possibilites of this particular debate. I am pleased I've managed to get my point across about the legitimacy of "lazy" as a criticism, and I'm willing to leave it at that. You can continue to question my initial post and call me a fanboy. That's fine. I don't mind, but I'm done derailing this thread. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Brian came in and deleted a good deal of this, since it has gone way beyond Polaris.

[jmc247]

Anyway, I think we've seriously exhausted the possibilites of this particular debate. I am pleased I've managed to get my point across about the legitimacy of "lazy" as a criticism, and I'm willing to leave it at that. You can continue to question my initial post and call me a fanboy. That's fine. I don't mind, but I'm done derailing this thread. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Brian came in and deleted a good deal of this, since it has gone way beyond Polaris.

These arguements do become repeatitive and circular, it feels like I am bumping almost the same thread.

[KiplingKat]

Morrison didn't hint that Magneto may have killed her. Austin did.

[drwho]

if Polaris remains his daughter they should just retcon her into Anya the one that supposedly died in the fire.

[KiplingKat]

if Polaris remains his daughter they should just retcon her into Anya the one that supposedly died in the fire.

NO!

NONONONONONO!

Absolutely NOT!

That would be destroying one of the catalytic, pivotal tragedies that drives Magneto as a character.

Plus we saw Magneto carrying off Anya body and burying it in Uncanny #304 and besides, Lorna is too young to be Anya.

If they were to pull something that stupid and destructive I would stop reading all Marvel comics forever.

[drwho]

So it makes more sense to you to make her another daughter who magneto has never mentioned his whole life.

[brundlefly]

Ah, now this thread takes me back. Arguing through countless pages with Chris over what constitutes "lazy writing," completely forgetting to stay on topic re: the Polaris-as-Magneto's daughter retcon and ruining the thread for those who wanted to talk about it. Good times. :biggrin:

I reiterate that making Lorna Mags' daughter again based solely on "they both have magnetic powers" is beyond lame, regardless of whose idea it is/was. If they had gone somewhere worthwhile with it afterwards, like a 'House of M' reunion with Polaris trying to find her place in the dysfunctional Lensherr family dynamic, then it would have meant something and resulted in a good story. Instead, she's currently stuck in outer space so that their relationship can't really be explored and we instead get peculiar requests around here for Marvel to "finally tell the untold story of Magneto knocking up Lorna's mom." So that's really the best followup story idea that's come from the Lorna-as-Magneto's daughter re-retcon? :rolleyes:

[KiplingKat]

My point exactly. If the writer peruse this, they would be ignoring the actual effect of one of the biggest Universe altering events in Marvel comics on the character at the center of it, to instead develop a story that changes nothing.

And the "Magneto and His Kids" thing is already being played out like a Greek tragedy with the Twins.

[drwho]

Also I wouldnt mind if they blamed wanda for the dna results. Maybe deep down polaris always wanted to be mags daughter and wanda wanted to fulfill her desire.

[KiplingKat]

That...could be a possibility. Lorna does have self esteem and co-dependency issues, she could have gravitated towards the strongest personality she had ever met as a father figure. And it could explain how Magneto knew the results in advance. Perhaps his own need for a family motivated Wanda to do it as well.

Though I think "Magneto lied" would be an explanation more palatable to the readers.

(I was also going to add, the "Lorna = Anya" would also not make sense as Magneto did know the results in advance. If she was his and Magda's child (since she would have had the same genetic markers as the twins), he would have figured it out and been over the moon about it already.

But he isn't.

Not trying to be pushy, just an additional thought.)

[Christopher O]

Ah, now this thread takes me back. Arguing through countless pages with Chris over what constitutes "lazy writing," completely forgetting to stay on topic re: the Polaris-as-Magneto's daughter retcon and ruining the thread for those who wanted to talk about it. Good times. :biggrin:
LOL

We are awesome.

[GoingGreen]

Mag's relationship with Lorna has always been closer than to the twins... since we've been told Legacy will involve the Shi'ar in some way, maybe after Legacy's over, Mags and Xavier will team up to get Polaris and Havok out of space and the quartet can take out Vulcan. Xavier and Havok isn't quite as important as Xavier and Cyclops, but maybe he'll go through Havok to get to Cyclops. And Polaris and Mags can have their much anticipated interaction.

[La Fea]

I don't know how I feel!

They need to have one last epic story to settle this once and for all. This development could either feel like excess, uninteresting baggage or it could give Polaris a more important role in the X-Verse. I dunno.

[KiplingKat]

Mag's relationship with Lorna has always been closer than to the twins... since we've been told Legacy will involve the Shi'ar in some way, maybe after Legacy's over, Mags and Xavier will team up to get Polaris and Havok out of space and the quartet can take out Vulcan. Xavier and Havok isn't quite as important as Xavier and Cyclops, but maybe he'll go through Havok to get to Cyclops. And Polaris and Mags can have their much anticipated interaction.

She's been more loyal than the twins, but I would not say closer.

[brundlefly]

If the writer peruse this, they would be ignoring the actual effect of one of the biggest Universe altering events in Marvel comics on the character at the center of it, to instead develop a story that changes nothing.

I agree. If we were going to get a "flashback" story issue of any kind in regards to Magneto, I'd prefer it be his reaction to M-Day (which is, as you noted, akin to his worst nightmare: he and his chosen people rendered powerless and facing extinction within a generation) and his subsequent actions between M-Day and the current X-Men: Legacy than to read about a one-night stand with Lorna's biological mom that adds nothing to either Magneto or Lorna's characters in the here-and-now.


LOL

We are awesome.

Truth to that. *high five*

I think it was some of my best stubborn "I don't care that I'm off-topic and derailing this thread, I will have the last word here!" posting ever.

[Christopher O]

I think it was some of my best stubborn "I don't care that I'm off-topic and derailing this thread, I will have the last word here!" posting ever.
It was good stuff. We basically killed the thread.

[Polaris Rocks]

I like the idea that Lorna is his daughter alot and certainly liked their interaction on Genosha. It will be great to see their reunion, but it probably won't be for some time.

[Monty_Cristo]

this would be a lot easier if her hair wasn't green. if she had, say, black hair they could just say that she's Astra and Magneto's daughter. it would explain why Astra's so pissed at him. btw, what are Polaris' powers now?

[Jack Flash]

crazy Po has the same powers she used to have as a dirty filthy mutie.

[KiplingKat]

They're just mechanical in origin.

Though I like the "Polaris is a clone" scenario for making this retcon work rather than the Astra thing.

[KiplingKat]

So it makes more sense to you to make her another daughter who magneto has never mentioned his whole life.

(Repost this since it got deleted. A lot of these are general statements, not specifically aimed at drwho.)

The entire relationship makes no sense. Morrison, and especially Austin, should have never brought it into being.

A. Just because two characters have the same powerset, that does necessitate they are related. That would mean every telepath in the M.U. is Xavier's kid.
B. Magneto has never acted like Lorna is his child, even after he supposedly "learned of it". This especially cancels out the Lorna = Anya theory because if Magneto had learned that Lorna was his, and seen that she had the same genetic marker the Twins did for himself and Magda, he would have put two and two together and been over the moon that he had found his beloved daughter, "his talisman of hope" alive again. He but he isn't, he never was. He has never even mentioned it. Even when discussing his children.
C. It doesn't fit with the previous. "She not his daughter" assertions in continuity. (The only two scenarios that work in continuity are the "Wanda did it" one you proposed and the "Lorna is a clone created by Sinister" one that Monte_Cristo proposed. The third option, the most likely one, is that Magneto lied about the connection in order to assure her loyalty to use her power as he had before.)
D. The entire circumstances of the "reveal" are very fishy.
E. It doesn't do a thing for either character. In fact it's had a negative effect on Lorna as she got shoved back to where she was in the 1960's, only much, much crazier. And the writers are ignoring the effects of M-Day on Magneto as a character. Writing a "Magneto got some in the past" story does nothing to change either character as they are now, so why waste the panel space?
F. Magneto already has a powerful relationship with the twins to angst over. Polaris would either be replicating that on a smaller scale, or fall into Magneto's shadow. There is no story potential that is not already being explored with the twins in a much more powerful fashion. Better to cut Lorna loose and let her develop on her own as she did in X-Factor.

If they are going to tell any Magneto story, it needs to be him dealing with his reaction to House of M/M-Day, in which Wanda emotionally destroyed him by creating his worst nightmare: the extinction of mutants, and by taking away the very thing he based his adult identity on. (And for which he was indirectly responsible for this as it was him murdering his own son that set Wanda off.) He has not been emotionally torn down that far since the night Anya died and Magda left him, and yet he's been wandering around aimlessly, rather blase' about the entire thing.

That's the Magneto story that needs to be told: Magnus processing everything that happened, looking over the wreckage of his life to figure out how he got to that point, finding a reason to go on, and a new direction to take.

Not, "Magneto had an affair twenty-odd years ago that has no impact on him as a character, and had negative impact on Polaris."

[jmc247]

Though I like the "Polaris is a clone" scenario for making this retcon work rather than the Astra thing.

There is an idea that Marvel actually might consider, because it doesn't make Magneto look like a rat bastard liar and it doesn't make the writers and editors along with Marvel look like liars. But, there will still going to be quite a bit of pressure you will have to fight because I am sure Marvel will want to show Magneto having a big romance sometime a few decades after Magda to help promote the Magneto film.

Not that I support the idea, I clearly don't. But, it is an idea that is sellable to Marvel. Making Magneto along with all the writers and editors who have said that she is his daughter along with Marvel and their merchandising into liars isn't sellable.

[KiplingKat]

There is an idea that Marvel actually might consider, because it doesn't make Magneto look like a rat bastard liar and it doesn't make the writers and editors along with Marvel look like liars. But, there will still going to be quite a bit of pressure you will have to fight because I am sure Marvel will want to show Magneto having a big romance sometime a few decades after Magda to help promote the Magneto film.

Not that I support the idea, I clearly don't. But, it is an idea that is sellable to Marvel. Making Magneto along with all the writers and editors who have said that she is his daughter along with Marvel merchandising into liars isn't sellable.

Why when it would have nothing to do with the film and would confuse new readers? An affair Magneto had ten years after Magda left him, which has no effect on him as a character, to have a child whom they do not have time to put on screen while they are dealing with the Holocaust, Anya and Magda, and meeting Charles in Israel (the three most influential times in Magneto's life)? What would be the point?

As I said, a Magneto retrospective double size issue or miniseries would have meaning to and help promote a Magneto: Origins film. Not a meaningless harlequin romance.

Personally, that's why I favor the idea that this Magneto we have been reading about since the helicopter blew up in New Avengers #20 is a Skrull, and that the real Magneto is off in some Skrull holding tank somewhere having an inner journey of self examination. That way they can bring him back for real, complete with self examining retrospective, just in time for the movie.

[jmc247]

As I said, a Magneto retrospective double size issue or miniseries would have meaning to and help promote a Magneto: Origins film. Not a meaningless harlequin romance.

Promoting the character ahead of the movie is all Marvel cares about. Of course in any Magneto origins story based on whoever Lorna's mother is they would have a great deal of him reminiscing and rehashing his relationship with Magda. But, as for why Marvel would want something new vs something old or rehashed the answer is obvious. Marvel can generate a great deal of excitement about a new storyline of Magneto in a time period we never saw him before with a set of new relationships.

But, like with Marvel Presents #3 even though it was a decient story and had Magneto on the cover it didn't sell worth a damn, because early Magneto Brotherhood stories have been told over and over again and feel like old hat to fans.

Promoting Lorna and Zaladane as Sinister or Magneto's early experiments with cloning might be possible to sell to Marvel. Because, one could squeeze an Magneto origins story out of it of sorts to see Magneto at that time and what he was doing. But, it would be an uphill battle to sell to Marvel.

[KiplingKat]

Promoting the character ahead of the movie is all Marvel cares about. Of course in any Magneto Origins story based on whoever Lorna's mother is they would have a great deal of him reminiscing and rehashing his relationship with Magda. But, as for why Marvel would want something new vs something old or rehashed the answer is obvious. Marvel can generate a great deal of excitement about a new storyline of Magneto in a time period we never saw him before with a set of new relationships.

But, like with Marvel Presents #3 even though it was a decient story and had Magneto on the cover it didn't sell worth a damn, because early Magneto Brotherhood stories have been told over and over again and feel like old hat to fans.

If he was having a relationship with another woman, why would that necessitate rehashing his relations with Magda? Why would you introduce a "new set of relationships" which have no effect on Magneto's characterization to a audience new to the character? Audiences go see the movie, which is going to be based on the most influential moments of Magneto life as they are already defined in the comics, and then they go to the comic and read all this extraneous crap that means nothing really. All Marvel would be doing is confusing them. What would be the point other to entertain you and a couple other people who want to see Magneto having sex so desperately? That are expecting some "grand romance" when we already know it is not that grand since it has no effect on Magneto as a character. (Because he was still in love with his wife as of whenever he named the central plaza in Genosha after her. Because his "discovery" that Lorna was his child from that potential union has not changed him as a character. The best you can hope for out of that scenario is a brief affair.)

Marvel Presents never sells a damn, it had nothing to do with telling a pre-Brotherhood story.

[jmc247]

If he was having a relationship with another woman, why would that necessitate rehashing his relations with Magda?


Clearly any major romantic relationship he would have decades after Magda would bring up his feelings about Magda, how she left him and the like regardless of if it is with a human woman or a mutant. If he was sleeping with a mutant perhaps he would feel that she unlike Magda wouldn't turn on him, because she isn't just a human, but he ends up getting burned anyway. Or, if it is a human and he gets burned it just reinforces what he learned from Magda that humans are not to be trusted and are inharently flawed.

[KiplingKat]

Clearly any major romantic relationship he would have decades after Magda would bring up his feelings about Magda, how she left him and the like regardless of if it is with a human woman or a mutant. If he was sleeping with a mutant perhaps he would feel that she unlike Magda wouldn't turn on him, because she isn't just a human, but he ends up getting burned anyway. Or, if it is a human and he gets burned it just reinforces what he learned from Magda that humans are not to be trusted and are inharently flawed.

So why not just go over his relationship about Magda rather than introduce this new, and ultimately confusing to new audience members, relationship. We've already seen Magneto angst over Magda at the beginning of relationships: He did it with Isabelle, he did it with Lee. What would be the point of doing it yet again?

I mean, really. If we are going to examine his relationship with Magda, go full bore. Tell it flat out. Personally, I would love to see it because the fact she ran that night indicates panic, but that she kept running indicates a serious problem. I have a feeling that while he loved Magda passionately, devotedly, Magda had confused "need" with "love" and did not actually love him. She loved "the knight on the white horse", the man who had saved her life at least twice. The instant he became something other than her savior, the instant he needed her rather than she needing him, she bolted. And kept running.

And it was this moment was incredibly important to Magneto because it taught him that it doesn't matter how much you have proven yourself to the people you love. It doesn't matter what you do or it doesn't matter who you are, humans hate difference, no matter what. Before this night, Magneto had left the Holocaust behind, done everything he could to live a normal life. Magda gave him the core of his anti-human philosophy. Remember, it's not just the holocaust Magneto cites to Xavier when first issuing his manifesto in Uncanny #161, it's it her.

So why not just look at that directly rather than putting a shallow examination of it in the middle of a that it ultimately a meaningless affair to the characters development? Why waste time on the meaningless when the meaningful is there.

But since the actual story has been told already in Classic X-Men #12, why not just go for an Magneto retrospective issue to help introduce Movie audiences to the principal catalytic moments in Magneto life that created him as the character he is. As I said, he is due for a self examination issue and a big change in direction, that would coordinate perfectly with the release of a Origins film.

That is what would generate excitement for me. Magneto actually coming to grips with his own self responsibility, for him to stop blaming fate for the path his life has taken and start taking responsibility's for creating the destructive situations and relationships in his life, and moving forward from there.

(Plus it provides an opportunity to took a quick glimpse into one of the truly "dark ages" of his history: His pre-Holocaust childhood. We pretty much know what Magneto was doing between splitting with Charles in Israel and when he appeared at Cape Citadel, we've seen it in Classic X-Men #19, Generation X #10, Marvel Presents #3, and X-Men Flashback #-1. We have never seen anything of the boy who somehow had the will to survive four years in absolute hell and come out the other side. That is the truly unexplored time in Magneto's life.)

[jmc247]

But since the actual story has been told already in Classic X-Men #12, why not just go for an Magneto retrospective issue to help introduce Movie audiences to the principal catalytic moments in Magneto life that created him as the character he is. As I said, he is due for a self examination issue and a big change in direction, that would coordinate perfectly with the release of a Origins film.

Basically, Magneto's relationship with whoever Marvel choses decades after Magda would also in many ways be a retrospective on his relationship with Magda and his feelings about her. But, this is all about sales and generating fan interest. A new never seen before time in Magneto's life when he was first deciding to create the Brotherhood and when he first was building his armor suit and helmet would allow Marvel to put out a five to 8 issue mini which would sell like crazy. And, they can piggyback onto that story a retrospective about Magneto's feelings about Anya and Magda as well as the Holocaust.

A retrospective issue on Classic X-Men 12 wouldn't sell, hell I might buy it as a hard core Magneto fan, but it wouldn't pull over 30,000 issues and Marvel knows that.

[KiplingKat]

Basically, Magneto's relationship with whoever Marvel choses decades after Magda would also in many ways be a retrospective on his relationship with Magda and his feelings about her. But, this is all about sales and generating fan interest. A new never seen before time in Magneto's life when he was first deciding to create the Brotherhood and when he first was building his armor suit and helmet would allow Marvel to put out a five to 8 issue mini which would sell like crazy. And, they can piggyback onto that story a retrospective about Magneto's feelings about Anya and Magda as well as the Holocaust.

A retrospective issue on Classic X-Men 12 wouldn't sell, hell I might buy it as a hard core Magneto fan, but it wouldn't pull over 30,000 issues and Marvel knows that.

But I'm not interested, and according to this thread a lot of people are not interested either.

We've seen that period in Magneto life. We saw it in Classic X-Men #19 (which is moment he decided he was better than humans and was going to act on it) , Generation X #10 (using his intelligence contacts to begin waging a "genetic war"), Marvel Presents #3 (He decides he is going to creates his own set of allies), and X-Men Flashback #-1 (the final show down of Charles and Magnus before Cape Citadel. This is not a mysterious period.

Why "piggy back" his feelings on anything? Why confuse a new reading audience with a new "relationship" which has no effect on his characterization?

[jmc247]

But I'm not interested, and according to this thread a lot of people are not interested either.


But, I am interested and most people on CBR voting on this thread like the idea that Lorna is Magneto's daughter. That is all the voting on this thread poll means so far.

You can be as loud as you want against the storyline and I can be just as loud in favor of it. But, at the end of the day we are both just two people bringing attention to it. And, Marvel likes a certain amount of controversy, it brings attention to storylines and peaks the interest of casual fans.

[KiplingKat]

But, I am interested and most people on CBR voting on this thread like the idea that Lorna is Magneto's daughter. That is all the voting on this thread poll means so far.

No, I'm talking about the posts on all the thread you resurrected and the number of people who said that it was a bad idea. This was not a move that has universal support in the fanbase. You talk about Polaris conception story as "generating a lot of interest", well, it hasn't and telling it as a precursor to a Magneto:Origins film is just going to cause confusion in the newer readers.

There are much more important stories that need to be told about Magneto right now: like how M-Day has effected him and how he is going to move forward from here.

Magneto is a red blooded male who enjoys women. I'm sure he had never starved for female companionship when he so chose to have any (though his reaction to his relationship with Lee indicates that it wasn't very often), but I really don't care who he slept with along the way. It doesn't matter to him as a character because the most pivotal relationship in his life was with his wife. So I don't want to waste time on it when there are far more important stories that need to be told. If they want to throw a little side story in an X-Men Unlimited type of thing, great, but it doesn't have any effect on the character and should not take up any major amounts of principal panel space.

[jmc247]

No, I'm talking about the posts on all the thread you resurrected and the number of people who said that it was a bad idea. This was not a move that has universal support in the fanbase. You talk about Polaris conception story as "generating a lot of interest", well, it hasn't and telling it as a precursor to a Magneto:Origins film is just going to cause confusion in the newer readers.

You can say what you want, but the people in favor and opposed to the idea are very evenly divided and the results of the poll on this thread of 125 members shows most people like the idea of her being Magneto's daughter and this thread is almost two years old.

The handful of people like you who are strongly against the idea are very loud and post quite a bit, but as the numbers show are not the majority at least here on CBR voting on this thread in the past two years. Those posting on this issue repeately including myself are a dozen to two dozen strong, but we don't make up the silent majority.

[KiplingKat]

You can say what you want, but the people in favor and opposed to the idea are very evenly divided and the results of the poll on this thread of 125 members shows most people like the idea of her being Magneto's daughter and this thread is almost two years old.

The handful of people like you who are strongly against the idea are very loud and post quite a bit, but as the numbers show are not the majority at least here on CBR voting on this thread in the past two years. Those posting on this issue repeately including myself are a dozen to two dozen strong, but we don't make up the silent majority.

You also don't make up the silent group of people who don't vocally argue against it, and the large number of people who just don't care (which I imagine is the actual majority).

Nor does "55% of the people like Polaris as Magneto daughter!" refute anything I have said about the dubious merits of running such a story when there are far more important character issues to be dealt with that impact the characters in the here and now.

[GoingGreen]

Kipling, you've said over and over that Magneto spawning another child has no effect on him as a character. That can be your personal opinion, I really don't care - and I do disagree with it. Perhaps you haven't seen any significant impacts because Marvel's had 'important things here' and 'important things there' all this time. The big reveal of Lorna's paternity wasn't exactly a huge Marvel event - she took out a hundred+ guests at her wedding before we learn she's actually his daughter. Did it span across several books? Nope. Just in Uncanny. Considering this wasn't a major event, and we've had so many other major events since then... there really hasn't been much TIME for any impact Polaris' reveal could have on him. However, it gives us some insight that... perhaps he's known for some time that she was his daughter - perhaps all their interaction, whether Marvel intended this at the time or not, was actually his endearing side. He became her teacher. He was better with her than any of his followers. Look at how he treated Toad, and then how he treated Lorna. It would be quite easy for Marvel to look back on all this, and say it was just a father and his daughter.

Additionally, to go along with the several times you've stated the parentage has had no effect on Mags - it WAS a very defining moment for Lorna in recent years. From mid X-Factor to post X-Factor and pre-X-Men return, Lorna had almost no development aside from personality advances and a much stronger bond with her abilities. There was no real tangible development for Lorna. However, after the big reveal, it opened so many more doors for her development. We get insight from the past, which we had virtually NOTHING of aside from Zaladane's potential sisterhood with her, and the death of her biological parents via plane crash. That's all we had. However, we now have tangible evidence that Lorna has siblings and a father. We got to explore Lorna's dark side, which heavily revolved around Mags (she found out he was her father, the island nation he controlled and she once stepped in as ruler in his absence was destroyed by sentinels, she revisited the nightmare with his magnetic box, etc). It also leaves tons of fans anticipating Lorna and Magnus' next interaction.

I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me. You're stubborn, I'm stubborn, whatever. And I'm not arguing with you. I'm just trying to show the OTHER side of the fence, that you're so adament in destroying and erasing.

[KiplingKat]

But Magneto already "knows" Polaris is his daughter...and it had no effect on his character. There's been plenty of time, time for Magneto to seek her out, time for Magneto to talk about her...and he hasn't. Heck, he, Charles and Dr. Strange were on Genosha for six months tending one daughter. If Lorna was his daughter as well, don't you think he would have had processed and reacted in that period of time? As he sat there considering how he failed one daughter, as he had failed the one before her, wouldn't the "third daughter" have come to mind? If she was his?

I just don't think giving her a famous father has developed or defined Lorna as a character. Quite the opposite in fact. When she wasn't crazy, she became Magneto mouthpiece.

How is that defining her as an individual character?

And Magneto was treating the Acolytes much better than he had the Brotherhood long before Lorna came along.

[GoingGreen]

So, you aren't even going to TRY to admit I raised good points?

You're just one of those types?

You're writing everything off, and it feels like you're taking Magneto and Polaris' situation as some personal conspiracy to hurt your feelings or something. Just relax about it. Don't take things so seriously.

It's like ressurections in Marvel. You really don't have to get so intense about a characters death when you know they'll inevitably return in a few years anyway, so long as there's a conceivable way for them to return.

[KiplingKat]

So, you aren't even going to TRY to admit I raised good points?

You're just one of those types?

You're writing everything off, and it feels like you're taking Magneto and Polaris' situation as some personal conspiracy to hurt your feelings or something. Just relax about it. Don't take things so seriously.

It's like ressurections in Marvel. You really don't have to get so intense about a characters death when you know they'll inevitably return in a few years anyway, so long as there's a conceivable way for them to return.

Why is it when you guys are argued into a corner you go for the ad homiem attacks? You can't debate anything I say, to you impugn my motives instead...

Knock it off.

Especially when you guys are obviously taking this just as seriously, if not more so, than I am.

I'm sorry, but no. Because they were not good points, as I pointed out in my response. Magneto has had time to adjust to it, and it has had a negative impact on Polaris as a character. If writers really want to develop her as a character, they need to develop her, and not her relationship to male characters.

Sorry.

[HellFrost]

It was good stuff. We basically killed the thread.

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this...

[GoingGreen]

Why is it when you guys are argued into a corner you go for the ad homiem attacks? You can't debate anything I say, to you impugn my motives instead...

Knock it off.

Especially when you guys are obviously taking this just as seriously, if not more so, than I am.

I'm sorry, but no. Because they were not good points, as I pointed out in my response. Magneto has had time to adjust to it, and it has had a negative impact on Polaris as a character. If writers really want to develop her as a character, they need to develop her, and not her relationship to male characters.

Sorry.

I was hardly "debated into a corner"... I simply refuse to respond when someone is so stubborn they'll write off anything I say as frivolous. I got PMs from posters - one saying my argument was spot on, and another telling me my post was full of legit points. Then you play the rude card and write off what I say. I'm not going to post a response to your argument - which is the same argument stated over and over - when you refuse to acknowlege a good point. And then go as far as saying it was a "bad" point.

I'll 'knock it off' when you do.

[KiplingKat]

My yes, it's so "rude" to point out facts: That Magneto has had plenty of time to adjust to the idea that Polaris is his daughter and it has had no effect on him as a character. That Magneto treated the Acolytes much better than the Brotherhood since Adjectiveless #1, that Austin did not develop Polaris as an individual, but instead made her a crazy mouthpiece for Magneto, which is not developing her as an individual, but quite the opposite. "Her dark side" wasn't hers at all, it was his. Any interaction she has with Magneto is either going to replay the twin's rejection on a lesser scale, or because she has such self-image issues (and no wonder, the poor dear has been manipulated and mind controlled for most of her existence on panel), she will fall into his shadow. If Polaris is to be developed into a viable character, she must be developed on her own.

And it's not rude to say things like,

You're just one of those types?

You're writing everything off, and it feels like you're taking Magneto and Polaris' situation as some personal conspiracy to hurt your feelings or something. Just relax about it. Don't take things so seriously.

:rolleyes:

If you can't be involved in a discussion without getting personal, then maybe you shouldn't be involved in the discussion.

[GoingGreen]

Magneto treated SOME of his Acolytes with SOME respect. He hardly had problems with Lorna at all - used her to govern the people, etc.

Austen made only a few references to Magneto through Lorna. Her wedding day, when she blasted "Magneto was right. My father was right!" and wore a variant of his uniform. After that, during the Draco arc when she was dealing with ALL of her inner demons. And then again, in Uncanny just before that Excalibur mini with Wicked and Freakshow. Austen was showing his decent-writing side by tending to the little mess he wrote Lorna into with these references. All that happened on Genosha... ALL... had serious impacts on Lorna's development. Ignoring Magneto's situation, he had, again, serious impacts on Lorna's development. You say negative, whatever. That's your personal taste. I didn't mind it - and in reality, it was nice to see a character having psychological stresses shown from the kind of work they do. Think about how little we see psychological impacts like this. The boys on New X-Men were doing a decent job of it, but not even that intense. Mercury had part of her flesh stolen from her after hours of agonizing torture. She's then flung into hell. Comes back and is quirky? I thought it was nice that a character had psychological issues.

When Lorna and Austen alike were moved to adjectiveless, Austen's been stated saying he was well on his way to making Lorna a leading lady. Which is extremely evident in his care for her after her 'crazy' period.

Austen didn't make Lorna crazy. The plot had been in the works for some time. Austen took the stigma because he happened to write it at the time. Granted, half of what Austen wrote, I wasn't a fan of - some of it was quite nice.

No, Magneto hasn't had time to show any impact Lorna has had on him since the big reveal. They haven't even been featured together in years. Why interrupt a massive plot - because Magneto is almost always involved in massive plots - to have him randomly reflect on Lorna - a scene which would have zero relevence to the plots? That makes no sense.

Now onto Lorna and Magnus interaction down the road.

You've been continually complaining that any interaction between the two is going to mimic the twins relationship with him, or fall into his shadow.

It doesn't have to be either. Polaris has always dangled between the lines on who's dream to follow - and on Uncanny just before the RELOAD and Excalibur, when the twins, Polaris, Xavier, and Wolverine were checking out Genosha, Lorna was shown as and intellectually independent X-Man. She successfully placed herself in the 'grey' area, boasted her own opinion. Magneto's dream is of the homo-superior. Xavier's is of peaceful coexistence. Lorna was a mix of both. She compared Xavier's school to Stockholme syndrome, and explained how the humans had attacked them over and over - Lorna felt it was time for mutants to fight for their own survival. That was the entire point of her discussion with Xavier. "What do you do when someone's trying to kill you?" She was not falling into Magneto's footsteps at all.

I think Lorna can have a relationship with her father, Magneto. Magneto and Xavier still highly respect each other, and sometimes work with one another. And yet Magneto is still seen as one of the X-Men's greatest enemies because of the nature of his dream. I think it'd be perfectly legitament for Lorna and Magneto to have some sort of decent relationship. She's never expressed outright hatred for him. Disappointment and defiance, sure, but never hatred.

You've painted this picture that there are only two options for their relationship, but that's simply not true.

[Flinkman]

Polaris as Magneto's daughter, plz.

[KiplingKat]

Magneto treated SOME of his Acolytes with SOME respect. He hardly had problems with Lorna at all - used her to govern the people, etc.

No, he treated all of his Acolytes (with the exception of Cortez and Senyaka for obvious reasons) with more respect than he did Toad. He was never as verbally or physically abusive towards the Acolytes as he was towards the Brotherhood. Comparing how he treated Toad and how he treated Lorna as proof of his "fatherly affection" was hasty generalization which is an argumentative fallacy. He treated everyone better than he treated Toad.

He only used her to help take over the Island. He never got to use her to "govern the people" as she was working with the underground against him during most of his adminstration. (All of it until Austin's "reveal".) Magneto left Genosha to her, also an Austin gimmick, which she promptly abandoned.

Austen made only a few references to Magneto through Lorna. Her wedding day, when she blasted "Magneto was right. My father was right!" and wore a variant of his uniform. After that, during the Draco arc when she was dealing with ALL of her inner demons. And then again, in Uncanny just before that Excalibur mini with Wicked and Freakshow. Austen was showing his decent-writing side by tending to the little mess he wrote Lorna into with these references. All that happened on Genosha... ALL... had serious impacts on Lorna's development. Ignoring Magneto's situation, he had, again, serious impacts on Lorna's development. You say negative, whatever. That's your personal taste. I didn't mind it - and in reality, it was nice to see a character having psychological stresses shown from the kind of work they do. Think about how little we see psychological impacts like this. The boys on New X-Men were doing a decent job of it, but not even that intense. Mercury had part of her flesh stolen from her after hours of agonizing torture. She's then flung into hell. Comes back and is quirky? I thought it was nice that a character had psychological issues.

Yes, her father's psycological issues.

There was very little of Lorna dealing with being in the middle of the deaths of millions of people.

There was a ton of Lorna finding out her her Daddy was.

When Lorna and Austen alike were moved to adjectiveless, Austen's been stated saying he was well on his way to making Lorna a leading lady. Which is extremely evident in his care for her after her 'crazy' period.

Which she never needed to have in the first place.

Austen didn't make Lorna crazy. The plot had been in the works for some time. Austen took the stigma because he happened to write it at the time.

I'm sorry, but you just refuted your own argument.

"The lot had been in the works for sometime..." so says Austin years after the fact when fans were coming down on him for it. "It's not my fault! It's Grant Morrison's! Unless you like it, then it was my idea..."

Granted, half of what Austen wrote, I wasn't a fan of - some of it was quite nice.

A lot of it was outright offensive to women.

No, Magneto hasn't had time to show any impact Lorna has had on him since the big reveal. They haven't even been featured together in years. Why interrupt a massive plot - because Magneto is almost always involved in massive plots - to have him randomly reflect on Lorna - a scene which would have zero relevence to the plots? That makes no sense.

Xavier meets up with Magneto only hours after he and Lorna have this massive debate about Xavier and Magneto's methodologies, and it makes no sense for Charles to bring it up?

"Oh BTW, were you listening in on the conversation I just had with your daughter?"

Now onto Lorna and Magnus interaction down the road.

You've been continually complaining that any interaction between the two is going to mimic the twins relationship with him, or fall into his shadow.

It doesn't have to be either. Polaris has always dangled between the lines on who's dream to follow - and on Uncanny just before the RELOAD and Excalibur, when the twins, Polaris, Xavier, and Wolverine were checking out Genosha, Lorna was shown as and intellectually independent X-Man.

Are you kidding? She was spouting Magneto's Manifesto almost word for word!

She successfully placed herself in the 'grey' area, boasted her own opinion. Magneto's dream is of the homo-superior. Xavier's is of peaceful coexistence. Lorna was a mix of both. She compared Xavier's school to Stockholme syndrome, and explained how the humans had attacked them over and over - Lorna felt it was time for mutants to fight for their own survival.

Which is what Magneto has been saying the entire time. How much different is what she said from what Magneto said in Uncanny X-Men #161?

She also was talking mutant superiority when she went nuts at the wedding.

That was the entire point of her discussion with Xavier. "What do you do when someone's trying to kill you?" She was not falling into Magneto's footsteps at all.

Yes, she was. She even did it by physically threatening to kill Charles, something that would have been unthinkable for for her five years prior, yet now that she is Magneto's daughter...

She threatening him, just Magneto has threatened Charles, over and over and over.

I think Lorna can have a relationship with her father, Magneto.

Yes she can. Given her self esteem issues and co-depndancy, she can become an extension of him, as she did in House of M.

Magneto and Xavier still highly respect each other, and sometimes work with one another. And yet Magneto is still seen as one of the X-Men's greatest enemies because of the nature of his dream.

Well, yes. What is your point?

I think it'd be perfectly legitament for Lorna and Magneto to have some sort of decent relationship. She's never expressed outright hatred for him. Disappointment and defiance, sure, but never hatred.

Read some of the early X-Men, she expressed some hatred then.

You've painted this picture that there are only two options for their relationship, but that's simply not true.

Yes. It is true, because we've seen them already. Lorna rejected him, with the twins, at the end of Magneto :Dark Seduction, and then she embraced being his daughter in House of M. Both ways, she faded into the background. Next to the extreme tragedy of Magneto's relationship with the twins...

Whom I might add, he got used to the notion that they were his immediately after he found out....

...unlike Lorna...

...any relationship he has with Lorna is simply not going to be a major aspect of character devlopment, because it has already shown itself not to be a factor in Magneto's character devlopment.

The only factor it can be in Lorna's character devlopment is to distract and wear down her individuality, which we have already seen.

The only way the entire scenario works (other than Magneto lying about it, which he would), from the non-relationship through most of the history of the X-Men, to the manipulated (and forced) revelation, to Magneto's interactions to Lorna and lack of fatherly behavior (when he immediately claimed the twins as his children and repeatedly tried to gain their loyalty) is if Lorna is a clone made from his DNA. This would explain how he knew of the genetic similarity and wanted to keep her close by for observation, but never acted like Lorna's father as he did with the twins.

This creates another dynamic entirely, which cuts Lorna loose to find her own being and path. To sort out who she is free from who he is, rather than playing "the perfect daughter" she did in House of M.

And it gives Magneto's yet another reason to search Sinister out and give him the beat down to end all beat downs.

[The Black Guardian]

I hate this everybody being related to everybody else crap. Heck, if I had my way, I'd find a way for Pietro and Wanda to not be related to Our Lord Magneto.

[KiplingKat]

I hate this everybody being related to everybody else crap. Heck, if I had my way, I'd find a way for Pietro and Wanda to not be related to Our Lord Magneto.

That one I can deal with since it was hinted at waaaay back in the day since Uncanny #63 (I think) and little hints were dropped by various artists and writers throughout the years. That was a reveal a decade in the making, so when it happened, it made sense. Sort of like the reveal that Kurt was Mystique's son was first hinted at back in 1980 (I think, I'd have to go look it up). The Draco idiocy made no sense, but that Mystique was his mother was built up and hinted at years.

However, Kurt, Wanda, and Pietro were all interesting characters in their own right before their parentages were revealed so that when they were linked to Mystique and Magneto respectively, they did not fall into those character shadows the way Lorna did with Magnus.

But I definitely agree that not everyone needs to be related to everyone else. A little of it is an interesting spice. Too much of it, and you run the danger of looking like daytime television. The fact is they stuck Polaris and Magneto together because they both had magnetic powers and Austin felt the need to make Lorna "interesting" by linking her to a more interesting character which is simply lazy writing. It would be like trying to "develop" Besty Braddock, Jean Grey, and Emma Frost by making them all Xavier's kids which would be lameness in the extreme. Or like making Icarus Warren's kid, which would just be kind of sick.

[jmc247]

But I definitely agree that not everyone needs to be related to everyone else. A little of it is an interesting spice. Too much of it, and you run the danger of looking like daytime television. The fact is they stuck Polaris and Magneto together because they both had magnetic powers and Austin felt the need to make Lorna "interesting" by linking her to a more interesting character which is simply lazy writing. It would be like trying to "develop" Besty Braddock, Jean Grey, and Emma Frost by making them all Xavier's kids which would be lameness in the extreme. Or like making Icarus Warren's kid, which would just be kind of sick.

Now you can read Austen's mind and know why he did what he did and why? Especially when there is a interview out there where he explains exactly why he did what he did and you know exactly the interview, but of course you will say it is all lies because it doesn't conform to your beliefs.

You have your belief system, it is based on your opinion that you try to aruge is fact and the only truth and anything anyone else says that you disagree with is wrong or lies. GoingGreen it is best you stop debating Kat, it is a waste of your time. Trying to debate someone that who proclaims to know exactly what a writer was thinking as a 'fact' when he said nothing of the sort is wating your time.

Justin asks: I really liked your work on Uncanny X-Men, especially with what you did with Polaris. You turned her from a character that was always in the background who I hardly ever noticed into one of my favorite characters and you managed to give her character a nice edge.

One thing I was wondering is how the decision to make Polaris Magneto’s daughter again came down? Was that Morrison or your idea? Because, I know the storyline had its roots in Morrison’s New X-Men 132 back in September 2002.

I believe it was Grant’s. But the roots went much further back, though others can tell you specifically when and where, what issues, what the circumstances were, which page, what panels, what characters, the costumes they were wearing, who lettered it, and possibly even the type of printer it was printed on.

There was a storyline done years ago where she was ‘revealed’ to be Magneto’s daughter, but then it was undone, or proven not to be true, or only happened in one of Scarlet Witch’s continuity-scrubbing bubbles, or something. Maybe in the Neal Adams Roy Thomas run. I researched it at the time, but I’ve since forgotten. I needed to memorize someone’s phone number, and that’s the only brain space I had available.

Apparently Grant made a decision to go back to it, but I’m not sure whose actual idea it was: his, Marvel’s, or God’s acting through them both as a conduit—I assume his, because he was Grant Morrison, and he had the power, the power of Hoodoo—all I can tell you is that the germ of the idea wasn’t mine.

I had intended to use Polaris in my run from the beginning, keep her much as she’d been when I’d read about her in X-Factor and other places, then eventually marry her off to Alex, happily ever after—at least until some other writer came along and made them related to Satan. It was a surprise to me when she appeared in Grant’s X-Men—crazy, muttering to herself, and wandering in the radioactive mud. We’d just had coffee the previous day, and she seemed fine. Just shows how you can miss the little signs.

Once she’d appeared as Nutso Profundo I had to rewrite some of my scripts, and went with Lorna the edgier, more volatile and unpredictable Looney Tunes with a heart of gold. It made a certain amount of sense, and I agree with you, she became more interesting than she had been. CURSE YOU GRANT MORRISON AND YOUR GENIUS! He was always making me look bad for my lack of imagination. I think he did it on purpose.

If Lorna had been on Genosha when it was destroyed, that kind of devastation likley would have changed her, deeply, although I’m sure she still could have had kids, a marriage, and sold Tupperware in her spare time if only I had let her. I decided not to, because I’m a dick, that way.

So it wasn’t planned, it wasn’t actually my idea, but I ran with it and thought it was a good direction and an interesting one. And, tellingly, people both credit, and blame me for the change.

If you liked it, I did it. If not, it’s Grant’s fault.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=195337

[jmc247]

duplicate thread

[KiplingKat]

Now you can read Austen's mind and know why he did what he did and why? Especially when there is a damned interview out there where he explains exactly why he did what he did and you know exactly the interview, but of course you will say it is all lies because it doesn't conform to your beliefs.

You have your belief system, not based on reality, it is based on your opinion that you try to say is reality and the only truth and anything anyone else says that you disagree with is lies. GoingGreen it is best you stop debating Kat, it is a waste of your time.

"Belief system"?

So this is a religion now?

:rolleyes:

I never accused you or Going Green of lying. I did accuse GoingGreen of making a disingenuous comparison between Magneto treatment of Toad and his treatment of Lorna as proof of his "fatherly affections", while pointing out the flaws in his/her arguments (as I pointed them out with yours) as compared to what has happened in the comics. They claimed "Magneto has had not time to adjust to Polaris being his daughter" when in fact Magneto has had plenty of time, much more time than the minutes (seconds really) it took for him to adjust to the fact that the twins were his kids. They claimed that "making Polaris Magneto's daughter opened up character devlopment for her", it hasn't.

Basically Austin admitted it was a lie at the end of that interview, so thanks for reposting it for me. It is noteworthy that the person who cemented the nebulous suggestion Grant Morrison left behind can trace the development of the idea that Lorna is Mag's kid back no further than the writer who came immediately before him. The "storyline years ago" that Austin is referring to Lorna was introduced as Magneto kid in (Uncanny) X-Men #50 and then in #52, the same story arc, it was revealed to have been a lie.

[jmc247]

Basically Austin admitted it was a lie at the end of that interview, so thanks for reposting it for me.

Austen comically stated that if you like something blame me for it and if don't blame Morrison. But, of course if you can use something to your advanage and try to claim that makes his whole interview lies you will try. And, that is the last time I respond to any of your posts I have better things to do with my time.

[KiplingKat]

Austen comically stated that if you like something blame me for it and if don't blame Morrison. But, of course if you can use something to your advanage and try to claim that makes his whole interview lies you will try. And, that is the last time I respond to any of your posts I have better things to do with my time.

Affixing the blame for the retcon does nothing to refute the fact that A. It was a bad idea, B. it was poorly executed (but fortunately that lousy execution leaves the gate way open to a stetcon), C. it had no effect on Magnus' character development and negatively affected Lorna's character development, and D. there are far more important stories to tell.

[jmc247]

Affixing the blame for the retcon does nothing to refute the fact that A. It was a bad idea, B. it was poorly executed (but fortunately that lousy execution leaves the gate way open to a stetcon), C. it had no effect on Magnus' character development and negatively affected Lorna's character development, and D. there are far more important stories to tell.

Have fun debating yourself oh and you were the one who tried to affix blame for the retcon.

[KiplingKat]

Have fun debating yourself oh and you were the one who tried to affix blame for the retcon.

No, this was how the tangential debate started...

Austin did not develop Polaris as an individual, but instead made her a crazy mouthpiece for Magneto, which is not developing her as an individual, but quite the opposite.

When Lorna and Austen alike were moved to adjectiveless, Austen's been stated saying he was well on his way to making Lorna a leading lady. Which is extremely evident in his care for her after her 'crazy' period.

Austen didn't make Lorna crazy. The plot had been in the works for some time. Austen took the stigma because he happened to write it at the time. Granted, half of what Austen wrote, I wasn't a fan of - some of it was quite nice.

And we went from there, but who's idea it originally was does not negate the original premise that Austin did not develop Lorna as an individual character. Instead he took a very nebulous scene Morrison left and ran with it (he did not have to take that scene literally and set it in stone), making Lorna the "crazy daughter of Magneto" rather than working on Lorna to turn her into a viable individual character. Heck, between the Magneto and Bobby, he put Lorna where she was when she was introduced back in the 1960's.

The only writer to make Lorna into an interesting and viable character was PAD and he did that by looking at who Lorna was by herself. Not with Alex, not with Magnus, just Lorna.

[GoingGreen]

So, you would've preferred Lorna be perfectly fine after watching an entire nation get destroyed and then have to relive it only days or weeks later? That just doesn't make sense.

And please... don't reiterate yourself with the same thing AGAIN as your response...

[KiplingKat]

So, you would've preferred Lorna be perfectly fine after watching an entire nation get destroyed and then have to relive it only days or weeks later? That just doesn't make sense.

And please... don't reiterate yourself with the same thing AGAIN as your response...

I wouldn't repeat myself if you guys didn't keep asking me to.

Austin could have made Lorna upset over the JUST massacre, only he did not. He did not even chose to focus on the massacre. Instead he blew one nebulous, mysterious scene Morrison left behind out of focus and instead made Lorna focus more on being Magneto's daughter than she did on her experiences in the massacre. He did not choose to deal with with the effects of the massacre on her much at all. How much of Uncanny 430/431 is Lorna dealing with the Genoshan Massacre, and how much of it is Lorna recounting finding out she was Magneto kid?

..and suddenly. "I'm alright Charles." ?!?

Austin didn't have her "dealing" with the PTSD of the massacre at all. She recounts it at the end of her tale of finding out Magneto is her dad and whammo! She's healed! It's a miracle! I wish Magneto could get over his experiences with genocide the same way. He been dealing with them for 63 years.

Austin could have really looked at the effects of PSTD of natural disasters and genocides on people through Lorna. Instead he decided to dwell/waste panel space on a cheap soap opera gimmick in order to "make her interesting" instead.