Sympathy for DiDio

[TomStillwell]

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of comic power and fanboy fame

I've done DC Nation for a long, long year
Played with many a fan's soul and faith

And I was round when Ted Kord
Had his moment of strength and pain

Made damn sure that Max Lord
Pulled the trigger and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is will the DCU ever be the same

I brought about another Crisis
When I saw it was a time for a change

Killed Sue and made Jean insane
While Ralph screamed in vain

Did in Jack Drake and Boomerang
Decimated the JLI without a pang

I released the Prime
For his Titan killing time

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is will the DCU ever be the same, oh yeah

I gave you just a taste
When Bizarro turned the Bomb to paste

Made changes going down my list
With the Boy of Steel's retcon fist

I shouted out,
Who killed Booster Gold?

When after all
It was you and me

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of comic power and fanboy fame

And I laid traps for the Freedom Fighters
Who get killed so they can be replaced

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is will the DCU ever be the same, oh yeah, get down, baby

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what’s confusing you
Is will the DCU ever be the same

Just as every hero is a vigilante
And all the villains are saints
Just as two plus two equals three

Just call me Dan
cuz I'm in need of some restraint

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste

Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your favorite character to waste, um yeah

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is will the DCU ever be the same, um mean it, get down

Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!

Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name

I tell you one time, you're to blame

Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name

Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who

Oh, yeah


(Please note: This is not meant as a slam toward Dan DiDio or DC Comics. It's just a funny little something that came to me on the train this morning that I thought others might find amusing. I would also note that I would go gay for Dan DiDio if he gave me a job writing at DC Comics. It's the dreamy 'stash!!!)

[TCJohnson]

Is it ok if I slam Dan Didio and DC comics?

[Grazzt]

Is it ok if I slam Dan Didio and DC comics?

That depends, are you trying to get a job at DC?

[TomStillwell]

Is it ok if I slam Dan Didio and DC comics?

Sure. Go ahead and start your own thread even.

[Jack Zodiac]

(Please note: This is not meant as a slam toward Dan DiDio or DC Comics. It's just a funny little something that came to me on the train this morning that I thought others might find amusing. I would also note that I would go gay for Dan DiDio if he gave me a job writing at DC Comics. It's the dreamy 'stash!!!)

You can almost forgive him for his bad decisions, if only for the porn 'stache.

[Lester C.]

I read this thread as sympathy for dildo and immedialy thought of Sabrinaset. Something wrong with that as Bree doesn't make me think dirty thoughts and yet there she was.

Dildo ah ditto.

[Lester C.]

I thought this thread was about the singer!

[Gail Simone]

Dan is responsible for almost all the good stuff DC's done lately in one way or another. I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault, which is kind of a sign of a good boss, I think.

Gail

[El Santo]

Dan is responsible for almost all the good stuff DC's done lately in one way or another. I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault, which is kind of a sign of a good boss, I think.

Gail
So, who's responsible for turning the DCU from something I read about several times a week, or something I generally avoid aside from Checkmate and Secret Six?

[Lester C.]

In hindsight I think I may have over reacated but the straw that broke the camel's back for me was whole Batgirl thing went down I lost my taste for comics together and threw out a massive collection. I am thinking about coming back in a few years when I get my law degree, but not the way things stand now at either Marvel or DC. At least now I'm saving fivty dollars a week.

[PatrickG]

In hindsight I think I may have over reacated but the straw that broke the camel's back for me was whole Batgirl thing went down I lost my taste for comics together and threw out a massive collection. I am thinking about coming back in a few years when I get my law degree, but not the way things stand now at either Marvel or DC. At least now I'm saving fivty dollars a week.

No offense... But why throw out a massive collection?

You enjoyed those stories. And now that there're less stories YOU personally enjoy, you're getting rid of the ones you do?

Dan Didio is a "take the bull by the horns" kindof guy. I expect that when his replacement eventually comes along, we'll be ready for something different. But I see a lot of what Didio takes flack for as being incidents where he's forcibly steering things where they need to go for the health of DC.

I'll admit some burnout. And I'm amazed that Geoff Johns' penchant for amputation and dismemberment isn't an internet laughing stock. I like Johns' writing but in my mind, there's nothing particularly exciting, shocking or even interesting about super-heroes getting limbs hacked off or ripped in half or beheaded. As far as I'm concerned, it's an absurd schtick that's more embarassing than excessive trenchcoats or belt pouches or Batman in a rainbow outfit. (I could go for a healthy dose of any of those things in place of a creative amputation.)

I mean, Johns' pacing is great. His dialogue is decent. His continuity is generally okay, at least.

But every time I see someone's eyeballs pop out or arm get seared off, I just wrinkle my forehead and wonder how anyone can be entertained by that. It makes me think that Geoff... and a lot of fans... have anger management issues.

For me personally, the DCU hit its peak when YOUNG JUSTICE was going, when Waid was on his second Flash run, when Hypertime was out there, when DC ONE MILLION was out there, when Krypto came back, when Joe Kelly was on SUPERBOY. Batman was being a detective in more self-contained stories. Superman's powers were amped. The JLA was the big seven. Super-heroes inhabited a surreal world full of laughs and character drama and the big events weren't all that big and the REALLY big events happened in individual titles in 3-6 issue arcs.

But everything has to change at some point, I guess.

I question how graphic the DCU has become. I think it SHOULD be happier and perhaps "less real" than Marvel and I think I should awe at the ideas more than I should fear for the characters' safety, in general.

But Didio's brought some energy to DC right now and he seems fairly intent on keeping that momentum up. So good for him.

[TomStillwell]

Dan is responsible for almost all the good stuff DC's done lately in one way or another. I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault, which is kind of a sign of a good boss, I think.

Gail

That's kinda the point of this thread. Dan's made out to be a wrecker by some, but even they must admit that the DCU has become an exciting place again and financially they are selling more books, generating more buzz, keeping up with Marvel.

Dan is a nice guy. He's good with the readers at conventions. He treats the creators well. Other guys in his shoes were/are missing some of those traits.

[Matt Algren]

But Didio's brought some energy to DC right now and he seems fairly intent on keeping that momentum up. So good for him.I had some pretty explosive diarrhea last night that had a lot of energy, too. Doesn't make the energy good.

Dan is responsible for almost all the good stuff DC's done lately in one way or another. I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault, which is kind of a sign of a good boss, I think.I'm sorry, but if he gets credit for the good, he gets blame for the bad. And there's a vast wasteland of bad with its chest getting punched through or its wife being raped.

That's kinda the point of this thread. Dan's made out to be a wrecker by some, but even they must admit that the DCU has become an exciting place again and financially they are selling more books, generating more buzz, keeping up with Marvel.True, DC is selling more books. But would they be selling less if the books were less bottoms & boobies and more substance? Less sitting around the table voting on new members and more saving the world? 52 has just under 120,000 readers a month (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9329.html). The only reason this universe-spanning, must-be-read-to-understand-what's-going-on, won't-ever-be-reprinted book, which should be on the pull list of every single DC fan, is considered a success is that it's weekly, quadrupling its monthly sales.

Scooby Doo sold less than 5,000 direct market copies in August (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9329.html). To quote Kyle Baker (http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/001648190.cfm), "If you can’t sell Scooby Doo, you should really quit the business. Honestly."

[Matt Algren]

(Please note: This is not meant as a slam toward Dan DiDio or DC Comics. It's just a funny little something that came to me on the train this morning that I thought others might find amusing. I would also note that I would go gay for Dan DiDio if he gave me a job writing at DC Comics. It's the dreamy 'stash!!!)
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/flattery.jpg

;)

[TCJohnson]

but even they must admit that the DCU has become an exciting place again

The hell I do! Under Didio I have lost most of my enthusiasm for comics. Instead of getting excited about news about DC comics, I now just get a feeling of dread.

I thought comics were supposed to be fun to read.


Dan is a nice guy. He's good with the readers at conventions.

Not from I have seen. I have seen him twice at conventions and he comes off as nothing but condenscending.

[TomStillwell]

I'm not going to argue with you TC, because frankly nothing on earth can budge the opinion of a comic fan concerning their comics.

You don't like the DCU as it is. You don't like DiDio. That's cool.

But there are a lot more folks buying DC Comics now with Dan running things. That you can't deny.

Let me relate a story that I think draws a good parallel.

When I was in high school the pastor of my church died. He was much loved and had been pastor of that church for decades.

He was a good pastor and the way he did things was proper. The church was strong under his leadership.

We looked long and hard for a new pastor and finally found a man from Idaho.

He was different than the old pastor. Along with teaching the Bible he believed you needed to have a church filled with passion for God. To that end he wanted to do less of the the hymns and pipe organ music that traditionally had been the staple of my church. He wanted a worship service that sounded less like a funeral and more like a celebration of belief.

We started a construction project to remove the pipe organ and choir loft in order to build a stage that would allow for traditional worship but also would allow dramatic performances and a more contemporary band.

I was one of the young men who helped build that stage. At one point I was taking a break outside when one of the older folks from the church came around to see what we were doing. I said something about how nice it would look when we were done.

This man looked at me in digust and asked when we were putting in the bar and pool tables.

Many of the older people in the church were upset and ended leaving. Things changed and they didn't like it. It wasn't how they liked it.

However, the addition of the stage coupled with the new direction of the pastor ended up doubling the size of the congregation. It brought in families with young children that gave life to the church.

I went back to that church recently. The neighborhood has changed from mostly white people of European decent to mostly Hispanic. The same pastor is there and he's guided to the church to change to fit the new demographic, bringing in a bi-lingual pastor and offering services in Spanish. The church has once again grown due to change.

It's now not really a church I'd probably go to if I lived in the area. It's not really for me anymore. But they don't need to build a church for me. I already believe in God. This church is designed to bring in new people that particular community to share a message.

I'm not saying I like all the changes Dan DiDio has made. The handling of Captain Marvel and the members of the JLI are examples of things I'm not happy with. But I'm able to see beyond the things I don't like to see the motivation for the changes.

If the end result is a growing readership for DC Comics then I'm all for it, despite what my feelings are about some of the changes.

[TCJohnson]

I'm not going to argue with you TC, because frankly nothing on earth can budge the opinion of a comic fan concerning their comics.

You don't like the DCU as it is. You don't like DiDio. That's cool.

But there are a lot more folks buying DC Comics now with Dan running things. That you can't deny.


Nope, can't deny it. But as you said, he has turned DC comics into something that is not for me anymore. As somebody told me, the fans of DC comics from the 80s aren't really welcomed anymore.

[TCJohnson]

Hey Gail, if I say how I really feel about Rucka, Johns, Waid, Morrison and Didio, can I get banned for that?

And with that I will be quiet now.

[HomerJay]

Dan is a nice guy. He's good with the readers at conventions.
I was at WW Chicago (with Quarterwolf) and a guy (wearing a "I killed Blue Beetle" t-shirt) walked up to me and handed me a poster signed by Geoff Johns. I thanked him and kept going. QW informed me afterward that the guy just walking around handing out posters like an indy-book publisher was DiDio. He didn't announce who he was and he was just walking around the convention floor chatting with people.

[TCJohnson]

(wearing a "I killed Blue Beetle" t-shirt)

What a fucking dick.

[Matt Algren]

Fair warning, the church analogy hits a nerve with me (I've seen it do the opposite of doubling the church), and I'm trying to be mindful of that. I'm trying to tread softly, so bear with me.

----
Tom:
We're drifting quite a bit here, but I'd like to point out that changing the trappings of the thing isn't automatically right/good, and the people you were talking about weren't necessarily wrong or bad people for disagreeing. There's room for more than the two extremes.

With respect, the addition of the stage and a drumset didn't bring more people in, or at least it didn't keep them. That had less to do with the hour on Sunday morning and more to do with the attitude of the preacher and the people in the church, and what they were doing the rest of the week. In other words, the content mattered more than the casing.

Now, let's bring it back to comics. I care a whole lot less about the trappings than I do about the content. Didio's goal, which is pretty clear to me at this point, is to make DC look and feel more like Marvel. Problem is, the content won't let him. The characters don't fit into that mold. (see Captains Marvel, Superman, Wonder Woman, Legion, etc, etc, etc.)

I see a lot of people on the boards complaining about books being written for the last page, that is, all that matters is the first and last page, and the rest is basically filler. I don't think that's an accident. I think Didio is looking to the long lived soap opera world for his comic book model. I've joked with my sister that all she needs to understand what's going on with Days Of Our Lives is to watch the first half hour on Monday and the last half hour on Friday. I don't think I've ever been wrong on that.

I also don't think that's a good thing. I'm not one who says that increased readership is the most important thing. If you gain short-term readers by turning out a less engaging, more soap-opera-esque product, you've lost long-term readers.

I'm more interested in good creators like yourself turning out good comics, creating fans who will stick around awhile, than seeing high-profile, low-quality dreck that will gain short-term fans who will leave quickly once they figure out that a drumset doesn't necessarily make for a good church.

[TomStillwell]

I was at WW Chicago (with Quarterwolf) and a guy (wearing a "I killed Blue Beetle" t-shirt) walked up to me and handed me a poster signed by Geoff Johns. I thanked him and kept going. QW informed me afterward that the guy just walking around handing out posters like an indy-book publisher was DiDio. He didn't announce who he was and he was just walking around the convention floor chatting with people.

I've seen and talked many times to DiDio at Wizard World Chicago.

He walks for the floor. He talks to fans.

I've never seen Joey Q or other head dudes anywhere except at panels.

[TCJohnson]

I was one of the young men who helped build that stage. At one point I was taking a break outside when one of the older folks from the church came around to see what we were doing. I said something about how nice it would look when we were done.

This man looked at me in digust and asked when we were putting in the bar and pool tables.

Tell me, did this new Pastor go up to the older man and brag about the changes he made and laughed that the guy no longer felt welcomed?

[Matt Algren]

Tell me, did this new Pastor go up to the older man and brag about the changes he made and laughed that the guy no longer felt welcomed?
You're kind of loud for being quiet now. :)

[TomStillwell]

No, but the older man did tell the pastor that he paid his salary and better not rock the boat too much or the older folks would pull their offering.

TC, are you looking for a fight? You're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not on either side of this debate. I see both sides and try my best to understand both points of views.

If anything I lean more towards your way of thinking. Remember, I started my own publishing company to put out a comic that folks like you would enjoy. I put my money where my mouth is. I wasn't happy with the changes made to some degree, saw others who weren't happy, and brought to life an alternative. I seem to be drawing in older readers and new ones in equal parts. I don't know what that means.

I'd rather be positive then sitting around pissing and moaning.

Dan killed Ted Kord but he brought back a Batman we like.

He lets Winnick change the Marvels for the worse in my opinion but he lets Gail make some great stories.

There's good and bad in all things. I'd rather not throw out the baby with the bath water.

[TCJohnson]

TC, are you looking for a fight? You're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not on either side of this debate. I see both sides and try my best to understand both points of views.

Not a fight, just a debate with somebody I respect but disagree with.

[Grazzt]

Not a fight, just a debate with somebody I respect but disagree with.

You guys aren't going to fight? I guess I'll have to find something else to do with all this pudding. :(

[TomStillwell]

Pudding is involved?!

That's it TC!!! Bring it!!!

[Bright-Raven]

It seems DiDio (and Quesada over at Marvel) have tried to usher in the rollover of the fanbase with their business tactics.

It happens at least once in every decade. There's a core group of editors and writers who are "running roughshod" over the company line, producing just about everything from the company, and then something breaks down from within and house cleaning is done. Editors and writers alike leave companies. "Events" are produced to spike sales or to retool the structure of the company line for the next generation of readers, always willfully and purposefully alienating the current readership.

It happened in the 1970s when Marvel and DC had rotating editorial groups throughout 1971-1978. It happened in the 1980s after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS for DC, and really was the entire decade for Marvel under Jim Shooter. It happened in the 90s at Marvel after Shooter was ousted, and DC started doing idiotic storylines like KNIGHTFALL, EMERALD TWILIGHT, and DEATH OF SUPERMAN, amongst many others.

And it's happening now almost on an ongoing basis.

The only consistent element? A small core group of "popular" writers at the helm, all of whom are overworked and overexposed, producing half assed product compared to what they're actually capable of in order to collect their paychecks before their fifteen minutes are up and they're shoved out the door by the publishers to be replaced by the next batch of "hot talent".

[El Santo]

That's kinda the point of this thread. Dan's made out to be a wrecker by some, but even they must admit that the DCU has become an exciting place again and financially they are selling more books, generating more buzz, keeping up with Marvel.

Dan is a nice guy. He's good with the readers at conventions. He treats the creators well. Other guys in his shoes were/are missing some of those traits.
Correction: The DCU *was* an exciting place until he allowed Geoff Johns to bend the entire line over a barrel and violate it with his unwashed...well, I'll stop there.

Prior to IC, there were a number of DCU books I read, at one point more DC than Marvel, which was a first for me. I was and still am a fan of guys like Grant Morrison, Judd Winnick, and Greg Rucka. Then, in the space of like 3 months, every DC ongoing book I enjoyed was completely trashed and replace with either nothing, crap, or something I don't care about (Blue Beetle?)

And honestly, if they're going to continue with Checkmate being co-written by jokers and drawn by a guy who wouldn't know human anatomy if it stabbed him in the face, I'm pretty much done with DC.

[Magneto_X]

Fair warning, the church analogy hits a nerve with me (I've seen it do the opposite of doubling the church), and I'm trying to be mindful of that. I'm trying to tread softly, so bear with me.

----
Tom:
We're drifting quite a bit here, but I'd like to point out that changing the trappings of the thing isn't automatically right/good, and the people you were talking about weren't necessarily wrong or bad people for disagreeing. There's room for more than the two extremes.

With respect, the addition of the stage and a drumset didn't bring more people in, or at least it didn't keep them. That had less to do with the hour on Sunday morning and more to do with the attitude of the preacher and the people in the church, and what they were doing the rest of the week. In other words, the content mattered more than the casing.

Now, let's bring it back to comics. I care a whole lot less about the trappings than I do about the content. Didio's goal, which is pretty clear to me at this point, is to make DC look and feel more like Marvel. Problem is, the content won't let him. The characters don't fit into that mold. (see Captains Marvel, Superman, Wonder Woman, Legion, etc, etc, etc.)

I see a lot of people on the boards complaining about books being written for the last page, that is, all that matters is the first and last page, and the rest is basically filler. I don't think that's an accident. I think Didio is looking to the long lived soap opera world for his comic book model. I've joked with my sister that all she needs to understand what's going on with Days Of Our Lives is to watch the first half hour on Monday and the last half hour on Friday. I don't think I've ever been wrong on that.

I also don't think that's a good thing. I'm not one who says that increased readership is the most important thing. If you gain short-term readers by turning out a less engaging, more soap-opera-esque product, you've lost long-term readers.

I'm more interested in good creators like yourself turning out good comics, creating fans who will stick around awhile, than seeing high-profile, low-quality dreck that will gain short-term fans who will leave quickly once they figure out that a drumset doesn't necessarily make for a good church.

I think books like Shazam! and Legion can work as "serious" titles and I like how DC has more serious series and minis right now but I think he went overboard by axing all the humorous characters and/or turning them into psychos.

In a universe as diverse as DC you can have both. Plus it won't alienate the fans of those properties.

What a never understood was the handling of Cassandra Cain. She didn't need "fixing" to begin with (her title was outselling frickin *Robin*!) and she wwould fit in with the more serious aspects of the DCU fine as Batgirl.

[titanfan]

Ultimately, I could care less if Dan Didio is a nice guy. (Well I sort of care, but I'd still buy DC even if he were an asshole) His work should be what we critique him for. I'd take him over Joey Q any day of the week. I may only agree with like 60% of his decisions, but you can't argue with the buzz, sales, and market share growth that DC has gained on his watch. Holy crap, look at all of the talent DC has on it's books now! The DC roster is the best I've seen it--in like ever.


Dan is responsible for almost all the good stuff DC's done lately in one way or another. I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault, which is kind of a sign of a good boss, I think.

The boss *always* takes responsibility for stuff, good and bad. That's just the way it is. It's like being President of the United States or Quarterback of the football team. Even if you didn't do it yourself, you hired the person who did, or touched the ball somewhere along the process. To us peons, Didio has nearly omnipotent powers--we don't understand all the people that he has to answer to on a daily bassis.

[lonesomefool]

Before Dan Didio came on I wasnt reading one DC book, but now I read an equal ammount of DC and Marvel. I too dont care if he is a nice guy or not and I dont really have much sympathy for him or Joe Q. since at the end of the day they get to lean back in their chairs and play with the wads of cash those two guys are making.

[TomStillwell]

Correction: The DCU *was* an exciting place until he allowed Geoff Johns to bend the entire line over a barrel and violate it with his unwashed...well, I'll stop there.

I'd ask you not to correct my opinions. State your opinions all you want. Don't correct mine. It's impolite and it assumes a whole lot.

[TomStillwell]

There's something else I wanted to mention.


Geoff Johns to bend the entire line over a barrel and violate it with his unwashed

This is an illustration of all that is wrong with comic fandom.

A creator does something in a comic the fan doesn't like. Fans are passionate and upset. That's totally understandable.

What's not cool is the personal attacks. They are childish. They give fans a bad name.

Don't like something? Fine. Complain? Fine. Get personal? Lame.

Johns, DiDio, Bendis...whoever, are just guys doing a job. Just like everyone else. They don't deserve ridicule, just as you wouldn't want to be ridiculed for doing your job.

A fan can be critical without being making it personal.

[TCJohnson]

To be fair, though, people like Didio also make it personal, like when Didio brags about fans being upset with the decision he made, or Rucka saying that the only reason why people are upset about Kord's death is because they are cowardly and afraid of change...or Waid saying people who work an 9-5 job are just mindless widgets (that one really bothered me.)

[TomStillwell]

Um...did you ever think they were joking?

For instance, I've seen Waid speak many times and I've read many of his interviews. He's a funny guy with a dark wit but also seems very nice. I can't really see him seriously calling fans mindless widgets.

Byrne? For sure. Waid? Never.

[Bright-Raven]

To be fair, though, (some creators / editor) also make it personal

Which only goes to show they're human and just as fallible and can be just as much the asses as the fanboys who ridicule them.

No big deal.

[El Santo]

There's something else I wanted to mention.



This is an illustration of all that is wrong with comic fandom.

A creator does something in a comic the fan doesn't like. Fans are passionate and upset. That's totally understandable.

What's not cool is the personal attacks. They are childish. They give fans a bad name.

Don't like something? Fine. Complain? Fine. Get personal? Lame.

Johns, DiDio, Bendis...whoever, are just guys doing a job. Just like everyone else. They don't deserve ridicule, just as you wouldn't want to be ridiculed for doing your job.

A fan can be critical without being making it personal.

Ahem. CORRECTION:

That was not a personal attack. I made no statements regarding the person of Geoff Johns, nor did I wish him any harm, physical or otherwise. I made an analogy for his work that you apparently disagree with. Someone stating a negative opinion of a writer that you happen to like does not qualify as a personal attack.

[The Xenos]

I am pissed about a couple of things in DiDio's control of things. First, is Nightwing and his stupid ideas of what to do to the character. Namely, Didio wanted him dead. Now he has corrected that, first half assed with Jones, but now he's fixed it with Wolfman. Yet the very idea that a head honcho at DC wanted to get rid of Dick Grayson? That bothers me.

Also, the whole situation with Cassandra Cain sucks. Haven't seen anything done to fix that blunder.

Also, we got them getting major mainstream press for (HEY HEY SHE'S A LESBIAN!) Batwoman, but then delivering only a couple of appearances in a few issues in the middle of a 52 part miniseries which even I'm getting lost in. Yeah, way to appeal to the general audience, Dan.

Plus 52 keeps feeling like it should have been a bunch of mini-series than a weekly comic. A weekly comic would be amazing... if we got the same characters each week. It almost feels like they roll the dice to see which story to follow that week. To introduce a major new character like Batwoman, who happens to have caught mainstream press, and not have a clear single book to show the public, is just terrible. Plus this new character, who's more of a cheap charicature right now, has replaced a fan favorite character who was quite interesting. Maybe it would have worked if Batwoman had a series so soon after Didio's press confrence about her, but it was anything but. It was a flash in a pan and, I think, a giant failure.

[TCJohnson]

Byrne? For sure. Waid? Never.

Yeah, Waid. Waid is a good guy but the problem is that he never posts on the internet unless he is really pissed off. So when he does post, he comes off like a jerk.

[TCJohnson]

Still, I probably shouldn’t have lost my temper just because a bunch of widgets posting from their work computers during office hours accused Steve of acting “unprofessionally.”

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/28/editorial-shuffe/


The next person...the very next person...who dares even hint that Steve Wacker was ever in any way "unprofessional" is going to be eating through a straw for the rest of his goddamned life.

I speak for all the creators involved with 52 when I say that Steve is one of the best, most professional and most talented editors we've ever worked with, and we will miss him immensely. His contribution to this series cannot be overstated. Leaving was not an easy decision for him to make, but he has earned from us our support in whatever he does, and DC's loss is Marvel's gain.

Steve's professionalism is not up for debate in this forum, and to throw around a claim like that based on what little you know about comics, the industry, and life in general just makes you look like an idiot and makes Grant, Geoff, Greg and me eager to track you down and "visit" with you in a Jay and Silent Bob sort of way. Steve is a pro through and through. End of debate.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=2545879#post2545879

I completely understand why he was so pissed off and don't hold it against him but...the widget remark bothered me.

[TomStillwell]

Ahem. CORRECTION:

That was not a personal attack. I made no statements regarding the person of Geoff Johns, nor did I wish him any harm, physical or otherwise. I made an analogy for his work that you apparently disagree with. Someone stating a negative opinion of a writer that you happen to like does not qualify as a personal attack.

You said his penis was unwashed. Sounds pretty darn personal to me. That's not regarding his person?

Whether I do or don't like Johns as a writer is never mentioned.

Also, your "analogy" is a personal attack since it implies that Johns has malicious intent while doing his job.

He's a writer. He's paid to write. He's not sitting back hoping he'll get a chance to screw over the fans. You are taking it too personally.

[TomStillwell]

Still, I probably shouldn’t have lost my temper just because a bunch of widgets posting from their work computers during office hours accused Steve of acting “unprofessionally.”

TC, you're taking it in the wrong context.

He's not saying people working 9-5 jobs are widgets as you are implying.

He's saying people who acused Steve Wacker of being unprofessional were acting like morons who had not one clue of what was going on but yet were defaming Wacker.

[El Santo]

You said his penis was unwashed. Sounds pretty darn personal to me. That's not regarding his person?

Whether I do or don't like Johns as a writer is never mentioned.

Also, your "analogy" is a personal attack since it implies that Johns has malicious intent while doing his job.

He's a writer. He's paid to write. He's not sitting back hoping he'll get a chance to screw over the fans. You are taking it too personally.
Stop trying to argue semantics; you clearly aren't very good at it.

I never said anything about his penis. Hell, I never even used the word "penis".

[TomStillwell]

you clearly aren't very good at it

No, just not as good as you are at backpedaling.

"What?! Me?! I didn't mean that!"

[El Santo]

You weren't talking about what I meant; you were talking about what I said. You claimed that I said Geoff Johns has an unwashed penis, when it's clear from what I posted that I said no such thing.

The real question is why you filled in the blank with "penis", and why you seem to be so sensitive about whether Geoff Johns' penis is washed or not.

[MacQuarrie]

You weren't talking about what I meant; you were talking about what I said. You claimed that I said Geoff Johns has an unwashed penis, when it's clear from what I posted that I said no such thing.

The real question is why you filled in the blank with "penis", and why you seem to be so sensitive about whether Geoff Johns' penis is washed or not.
There aren't a whole lot of other nouns to fill that blank with, based on the context. Your attempt to avoid taking responsibility for what you deliberately implied is nothing but a load of weasel-words. That marks you as a weasel.

[El Santo]

There aren't a whole lot of other nouns to fill that blank with, based on the context. Your attempt to avoid taking responsibility for what you deliberately implied is nothing but a load of weasel-words. That marks you as a weasel.
Hey, I thought this whole thing was about how it's wrong to use personal attacks? Nice going, hypocrite. And you know, hypocrites are the worst type of weasel.

[Matt Algren]

Hey, I thought this whole thing was about how it's wrong to use personal attacks? Nice going, hypocrite. And you know, hypocrites are the worst type of weasel.
Okay, then. There's one way to end this. What word did you mean for people to put in the blank? Because I'm having a hard time coming up with one that makes sense and isn't offensive in the same way as 'penis'.

[TomStillwell]

He meant "unwashed car"...yeah, that's the ticket!!!

[Lester C.]

This thread is one of the reasons why I love Gail. Most of the posts here about Dan are scathing and yet Gail hasn't locked this thread or deleted any of the posts here. Given the fact that there is a really good chance that this thread could get back to Dan and Dan is the one that signs Gail's paycheck I find it very impressive that Gail's belief in free speech allows this thread to exsists. If it was me and it was about my boss, espcially it was a lucrative job I loved, I don't think I'd be as supportive of the first admenment as Gail is.

[the4thpip]

You said his penis was unwashed. Sounds pretty darn personal to me. That's not regarding his person?


The better question is, how does El Santo know? ;)

[JKCarrier]

I like him a lot, and he takes a lot of shit for things that aren't his fault

Such as? Seems like most of the fans' complaints are about story events that he (at the very least) must've signed off on.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Dan Dido is the Eric Bischoff of comics right now. He's spending the resources to take it to Marvel and luring many top notch creators to the company. But like Bischoff he has this thing where he lets the talent run roughshot at times and not care about the final product at fans.

For instance , Ted Kord's death to install the Iron Man version of Blue Beetle with a young kid. Looking back Ted really didn't need to die. The character could have been fixed and its not like I see a line of comic fans going " This new Blue Beetle rocks. "

PREDICTION: Ted Kord will be brought back once Dan Dido is gone from DC. This will be looked at as a mistake to do since Beetle & Booster Gold are considered the funny guys of the DCU.


Then you have Judd Winick's horrible crap of Green Arrow. I'm sorry if this upsets Gail or a Judd Winick fan but that guy blows on that title. Theres really nothing good at all in that title. From events done years ago with a Winick twist in Green Arrow to the Mayor Oliver Queen plot , its all lacking. What sucked worse was the fact Deathstroke looked like a major putz after so many writers had made him a great villain again. Geoff Johns seems ready to even not accept any of Winick's writing concerning Slade Wilson and has the character back in Titans with new evil group at his command.

PREDICTION: As soon as Dan Dido leaves the new EIC will install a new writer to bring back Green Arrow. This will be remarked as the new writer goes in Wizard : " I can't believe they let things get this bad. "

Flash itself is another blackhole of over fixing. In order to really put a stamp on DC , Dido had them ship Wally West and Linda West along with their kids into the Speed Force Zone of some kind. This after Geoff Johns had made Wally West and the Flash book such a great awesome read .

When , Mark Waid refused to write Bart Allen as the new Flash , Dido turned to 2 TV writers to handle it. The result hasn't been good at all and many wonder if Bart Allen as the Flash can be saved.

Maybe it was a change for the sake of bragging he installed a new Flash under his leadership. But thus far with no Kid Flash around and all , the Titans were weakened by that loss. Because Bart was becoming a very good Kid Flash but with speed ups in age and all , it looks weak on the read thru.

PREDICTION: None at the moment since we could see new writers come in and save the character. It happened for Wally West in the 80's.

No reason to laugh anymore. The ultra serious , ultra heroic stance works some. But when fans want to laugh where do they go now ? Because for one instance there isn't a Booster Gold & Blue Blue Beetle to make us laugh anymore. They were killed off to make room for new characters who sadly haven't made us laugh. ( ok Booster's long lost relative from our time period could be funny if he lives )


Anyhow there is some good Dido has done. We have a good Hawkman and Legion of Superheroes. Superman & Batman looks promising and Teen Titans looks cool. The events have lived up to their name like Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis. All in all he's done a good job as EIC in some aspects and some bad decisions in others.

I like Geoff Johns as a writer but the man is over worked with work on Titans , JSA and Green Lantern. But DC's relunctant to hand the reigns to someone un-proven and who isn't backed by Dido or in his circle.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

I understand a lot of the frustrations people have right now, particularly with the treatment of JLI version of the league. I loved that title. It was, in fact, the only DC title I read at the time. It was funny and fresh. The Despero battle from 37-38 remains one of my favorite arcs.

That said, I have to be honest that I like a lot of what Didio has overseen. Batman is more readable than he has been for well over a decade. I love Busiek's Superman. As far as I'm concerned, Teen Titans is better than it has been since the classic Wolfman/ Perez days. I keep trying to drop titles, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

The Blue Beetle issue is something that sticks in a lot of readers' throats. I get it. I really like Ted Kord, and I think he was (much like the JLI) a significant break from the traditional Superhero clichés. I was bummed to see him go, but I'm not sure if he was really the lynchpin that others think he was.

Did I want Ted Kord to die? No, of course not. But one of the things that the Kord storyline *does* highlight is the way that DC, unlike Marvel, consists of a fictional world in which totally conflicting discursive practices have flourished over the years. Funny book, serious book, all-ages book, adult book--all of these tones have coexisted in this universe. Ted's story dramatizes what happens when tones collide. Beetle's mounting desperation as no one takes him seriously was for me tremendously compelling.

As for the new Beetle, I think Giffen has done a great job on that tile. I wasn't particularly interested in reading the book, but I picked up the first and second issues because I'm a Giffen fan. He's a good writer, and it comes through. He's building an interesting fictional world, with actual characters who relate to each other, in a book that continues to cultivate the schizoid serious/comedic elements from his JLI days. And much as I grew to like Ted Kord, Jaime's character is now more interesting to me: not necessarily as Blue Beetle, but as Jaime Reyes.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I understand a lot of the frustrations people have right now, particularly with the treatment of JLI version of the league. I loved that title. It was, in fact, the only DC title I read at the time. It was funny and fresh. The Despero battle from 37-38 remains one of my favorite arcs.

I loved that. The cover with Booster and Beetle going " HELP " was priceless. They were over matched and all. But my favorite story were the smaller ones. Like the Kooeykooey Island which they bought with JLI funds. :D



That said, I have to be honest that I like a lot of what Didio has overseen. Batman is more readable than he has been for well over a decade. I love Busiek's Superman. As far as I'm concerned, Teen Titans is better than it has been since the classic Wolfman/ Perez days. I keep trying to drop titles, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Batman to me was last good under Loeb and Lee. The " Hush " storyline as much as it was picked on was good. I honest to god loved it. The art and all made me pick up each issue. I loved the return of Jason Todd . Didn't like the Clayface swerve at all.

We agree on Teen Titans. That is the best DC book out currently. Cancel Robin and let Johns have him. Thats my 2 cents.


The Blue Beetle issue is something that sticks in a lot of readers' throats. I get it. I really like Ted Kord, and I think he was (much like the JLI) a significant break from the traditional Superhero clichés. I was bummed to see him go, but I'm not sure if he was really the lynchpin that others think he was.
Did I want Ted Kord to die? No, of course not. But one of the things that the Kord storyline *does* highlight is the way that DC, unlike Marvel, consists of a fictional world in which totally conflicting discursive practices have flourished over the years. Funny book, serious book, all-ages book, adult book--all of these tones have coexisted in this universe. Ted's story dramatizes what happens when tones collide. Beetle's mounting desperation as no one takes him seriously was for me tremendously compelling.

I loved DC's " Countdown " oneshot. It was a great read for Ted Kord. I thought it was a very good character driven read and showed that DC could make someone regarded as a C-List hero interesting. Its just that the effect was that fans saw this interesting hero like Kord and older fans saw it and wanted DC to treat him serious and not kill him off.

But DC did kill him and wanted to hand the mantle to someone new.


As for the new Beetle, I think Giffen has done a great job on that tile. I wasn't particularly interested in reading the book, but I picked up the first and second issues because I'm a Giffen fan. He's a good writer, and it comes through. He's building an interesting fictional world, with actual characters who relate to each other, in a book that continues to cultivate the schizoid serious/comedic elements from his JLI days. And much as I grew to like Ted Kord, Jaime's character is now more interesting to me: not necessarily as Blue Beetle, but as Jaime Reyes.

I gave it 3 issues and it bored me. The character is supposed to be sympathetic and your supposed to care. But I never bought the robotic Iron Man version of Blue Beetle. Jamie Reyes is ok as a character and could have been given something else.

But making the Blue Beetle into a robot or magical Iron Man clone to make him be B-List or A-List is funny. Its like when DC had Damage in the mid 90's and tried to justify his existance by having him start the BIG BANG in Zero Hour. No matter what they did with Damage , as a Titan or elsewhere no one seemed to give a flying fuck.

So now their giving him a new costume and JSA membership . I could see Reyes in all likelyhood in the same boat.

[shrike]

I think Didio markets well, but executes poorly.

New Spectre, new Blue Beetle, new Atom (sorry, Gail), new (fill in the blank)... all bad ideas in the long run. If any of them actually _have_ a long run. Really, IC was a great chance to jumpstart a lot of pre existing characters who have been in limbo. Ray Palmer and Ted Kord especially, and they totally missed the boat.

A lot of new series featuring minorities is a GREAT THING, I'm all for diversity. I just don't care how they retired/ killed a few good pre existing characters to do it.

I'm sick of Didio blowing Winnick's, John's and Morrison's egos as the Second Coming. All, IMO, vastly overrated (especially Johns and Winnick, although
Johns comes across as a good guy).

Reading earlier posts... Johns doesn't wash his penis? Hm. Well, as long as I'm not touching it I could care less. :)

[BlackCanaryGuy]

But my favorite story were the smaller ones. Like the Kooeykooey Island which they bought with JLI funds. :D

I *love* that arc. Buying an island? Millions of dollars in JLI funds. Aquaman riding on on the dolphin at the end with that expression on his face. Priceless.


Batman to me was last good under Loeb and Lee. The " Hush " storyline as much as it was picked on was good. I honest to god loved it. The art and all made me pick up each issue.

I like Loeb's work, and I bought Hush (must...buy...), but it fizzled for me. Touted as it was a a mystery, I don't think it worked well within the conventions of that genre. Regardless, it's more an intangible "feeling" that Batman has now that works for me versus the general feel of the line pre-jump. I got so sick of the Batman who was better than everyone at everything in every situation. It wasn't just unbelieveable, writers simply couldn't write him as such.


We agree on Teen Titans. That is the best DC book out currently. Cancel Robin and let Johns have him. Thats my 2 cents.

The one year jump took it from "good, enjoyable read" to "one of my 2 or 3 favorite books."


So now their giving him a new costume and JSA membership . I could see Reyes in all likelyhood in the same boat.

Hmmm... Characters can't be made important, they have to become so. We'll see how they do with that.

[shrike]

Hmmm... Characters can't be made important, they have to become so. We'll see how they do with that.

Please tell that to Chuck Dixon regarding Connor Hawke or whomever invented the new Batgirl.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

Really, IC was a great chance to jumpstart a lot of pre existing characters who have been in limbo.

I definitely agree with you on that. One of the things that makes a great line is a strong supporting cast that continues to evolve organically and naturally. It seems a lot of writers/editors don't really recognize that.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think Didio markets well, but executes poorly.

New Spectre, new Blue Beetle, new Atom (sorry, Gail), new (fill in the blank)... all bad ideas in the long run. If any of them actually _have_ a long run. Really, IC was a great chance to jumpstart a lot of pre existing characters who have been in limbo. Ray Palmer and Ted Kord especially, and they totally missed the boat.

Don't even get me started on the Atom decision. His ex-wife kills someone for his love and what the hell happens ? He goes off somewhere to dissapear. The new series could have been about him seeking redemption instead it was something else. ( dropped it too sorry Gail ).

Its like they had story oppertunties handed to them and slowly each one was yanked away to do new characters. And you wanna place bets on how long the Ryan Chio lasts ? Because we all remember how long Adam Cray lasted as the Atom .



A lot of new series featuring minorities is a GREAT THING, I'm all for diversity. I just don't care how they retired/ killed a few good pre existing characters to do it.

I like Jamie Reyes. I think he would have been fine as something else and Crispus Allen as the new Spectre was pretty good. But the Atom decision killed a potential story they could have done with Ray Palmer and instead went " New Character " ect ect.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hmmm... Characters can't be made important, they have to become so. We'll see how they do with that.


Thats the thing about someone writing a character into a mantle. Say for instance Tim Drake as Robin. They didn't make Drake a Dick Grayson clone. But they made him idolize Grayson and made him a smart computer wiz.

Dixon even made Drake look up to Ted Kord in some ways. But the risk was people wouldn't like Tim Drake but DC's writers wrote him so well , and wanted him to really earn his role with Batman that readers liked that. Because Bruce had lost Jason Todd the year before and got so dark.

It wasn't like BANG he's Robin. They put a lot of thought into him. And the effect was that him and Kyle Rayner are the 1990's success stories as far as new characters taking popular mantles on.

I even gave a vote last year when Infinite Crisis was starting that Tim Drake should take Dick Grayson's Nightwing role.

[singoalla]

I gotta say, I have very few complaints.
Superman is great. I couldn't be bothered to read it when I first started reading DC. Batman is great again. I love the stories in both books, and I love the art, even though I wish Tec had a regular penciller, but it still works.
I get all the batbooks, and a friend of mine gets all the Superman books. When we're done with our respective reads, we trade them to read those stories as well. I never did that before.

Okay, so the Red Hood story could have been better (better written, better executed, better idea than the wall-punching retcon thingamajig...) and Nightwing OYL got off to a HORRIBLE start. But it's fixed now. Aside from the masseuse storyline. (sorry Wolfman - but urk). But those are all storytelling issues, and the writers are responsible for those..

Didio's tried and done new things, which every person in charge should. He's doing his job, and he's doing it well, IMHO. The stories are up to the writers.
I gotta say thanks to Didio and Bob wayne for speaking to me and my friend when we went to our first con last year. They made it a great experience, being friendly and professional, even when we acted like true nerds and asked inane questions. And for putting up with that, they deserve respect.

[Magneto_X]

We agree on Teen Titans. That is the best DC book out currently. Cancel Robin and let Johns have him. Thats my 2 cents.

No need. Just get a good writer on the title (re: Nightwing).

I loved DC's " Countdown " oneshot. It was a great read for Ted Kord. I thought it was a very good character driven read and showed that DC could make someone regarded as a C-List hero interesting. Its just that the effect was that fans saw this interesting hero like Kord and older fans saw it and wanted DC to treat him serious and not kill him off.

But DC did kill him and wanted to hand the mantle to someone new.


Handling the mantle to someone else doesn't mean said character has to die.

The Flashes have been doing that for ages. Same with the GL's.

They could have even had Ted retire and have him as Jaime's "mentor" (ala Jack-in-a-Box).

His death was unnecessary.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Handling the mantle to someone else doesn't mean said character has to die.

The Flashes have been doing that for ages. Same with the GL's.

They could have even had Ted retire and have him as Jaime's "mentor" (ala Jack-in-a-Box).

His death was unnecessary.


If they did leave Ted Kord alive and kept him around they would have fallen into the same trap Atom II fell in when he was given the mantle by Ray Palmer . No one seemed to care and he was killed in Sucide Squad awhile later ( 2 years later I believe ).

Of course I believe from reading Wipidia that DC had it like Palmer had died seemingly , no one accepted it so they wrote that Cray was given the mantle. DC's tried it again so it remains to be seen if anyone accepts this Atom.

Kord being alive would always have people going : " Why are we caring about this new Blue Beetle who looks like a magic version of Iron Man ? The real Beetle is there , why not put Kord back in the suit. "

The death was supposed to make sure that didn't happen. I could see why they didn't keep Ted alive. He would have attracted too much attention.

[TCJohnson]

Except that they did not have this Blue Beetle planned until after they killed ted kord.

[MacQuarrie]

Ted Kord was killed for business reasons.

[TCJohnson]

And hopefully he will be brought back for the same reasons.

[jerrymcl89]

Except that they did not have this Blue Beetle planned until after they killed ted kord.

What makes you say that ? The scarab was pretty prominent in "Countdown", and I think Ted even makes reference to there eventually being a new Beetle right before he dies.

[TCJohnson]

John Rogers, the writer. According to him after Ted Kord was dead they invited Keith Giffen to pitch a new Blue Beetle series.

[titanfan]

If they did leave Ted Kord alive and kept him around they would have fallen into the same trap Atom II fell in when he was given the mantle by Ray Palmer . No one seemed to care and he was killed in Sucide Squad awhile later ( 2 years later I believe ).


I believe Adam Cray was set up to die from the very beginning. The long term plan was always to bring back Ray Palmer...

[MacQuarrie]

And hopefully he will be brought back for the same reasons.
Not a chance.

They had to create a Blue Beetle who was not tied to the original, because that version involved licensing fees and royalty payments and severly restricted the ways in which they could use him. That's why Blue Beetle couldn't appear on the JLU cartoon show. OR so I've been told.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

They had to create a Blue Beetle who was not tied to the original, because that version involved licensing fees and royalty payments and severly restricted the ways in which they could use him. That's why Blue Beetle couldn't appear on the JLU cartoon show. OR so I've been told.

The Wikipedia entry claims that: "Blue Beetle has not appeared in the Justice League Unlimited animated series, although he has been featured in the comic book. This is due to the broadcasting rights of the old radio show; these rights expired in 2006, but the television series was cancelled that same year."

That makes sense. Given that the rights expire this year, it seems unilkely that DC would have killed off TK to get around them. So, who knows, maybe the TK fans have some hope.

[jerrymcl89]

John Rogers, the writer. According to him after Ted Kord was dead they invited Keith Giffen to pitch a new Blue Beetle series.

Ah. That tells me they already planned to have a new Beetle - they just didn't know any details.

[The Batman]

I dunno if I'd call it sympathy but I do think it sucks that guys like Winick and Johns and Didio are just trying to put out some decent entertaining comics and if people don't happen to like the story they call them names and talk about them raping characters with their dirty, dirty penises. I mean, I get that criticism is part of the job, though I don't know that calling Trials of Shazam writer Judd Winick a rapist for his treatment of the Marvels counts as criticism, and that this is sort of part and parcel with the limited celebrity that being a comic pro can bring but still, it's got to kinda suck.

I've seen someone get chewed out by a 'fan' for showing Wicca in a bad light because of something that Black Alice supposedly said or did in an issue of Birds of Prey. The only problem was none of the stuff actually happened in the issue and was all taken from someone else's review of it. And when it was pointed out that the person's complaints weren't valid and she should read the issue to see for herself she just got angrier.

I mean, how do you deal with that?

I don't know that I feel sympathy for pros but I don't know that I'd want to be in their shoes sometimes.

[El Santo]

I don't see what the problem is.


They tried to make an entertaining story that fans would like.

I'm a fan.

I didn't like it.

I said so, in no uncertain terms.

Criticism is a natural part of exposing your creative work to the public. If you don't like it, go cry into your granola hummus vegan tie-dye cake, you big hippie. :D

[The Batman]

With that post you've taken the YABS forum, bent it over a barrel and raped it with your unwashed, dirty, dirty . . . .


;) just expressing myself in no uncertain terms

[El Santo]

And you see, unlike some people, I can take a joke. :D

P.S. I always keep it washed.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I believe Adam Cray was set up to die from the very beginning. The long term plan was always to bring back Ray Palmer...

That could have been the plan as you said so who knows. The last Atom series lasted 18 issues and the character dissapeared awhile til Sucide Squad had the new Atom show up in Sucide Squad #44 7 to 8 months later.

credit: www.dcuguide.com