Roderick Kingsley - Time for a comeback?

[RedShark92]

Hi all...

Anyone else think it's time for the Kingsley Hobgoblin to make a comeback?

Kingsley was the only one of the many Goblin knock-offs to rise above the status of a knock-off (Harry had potential, but they killed him as soon as he started to become an interesting villian)... I have a feeling if Stern had been able to comple his story as he originally intended he would have been an even better example than he already is.

Anyway... Seems like he's one of the few long-term heavy-hitting Spidey villians who hasn't either been run into the ground, moved on or just plain been over-used to death.

He's also interesting in that he's got a reason to hate Osborn as well as Spider-man, which increases the potential for a good writer to have fun with the character...

[Will.S]

It's been SUCH a long time I'd say hell yeah.

[Young Avenger]

He's back on Spider-Girl.

[Will.S]

He's back on Spider-Girl.
But that doesn't count!

[Smoke]

ah, that would freaking rock if he came back in 616. It's been too long. Some kinda of long intertwined crime story we have no idea who's behind it until....kingsley pops out of the shadows; full page speard.

[RedShark92]

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. :)

I think the main limiting factor would be coming up with a good reason for him to come back.

He's shown that he's perfectly willing and able to walk away from a battle where the price of victory is too high... For example, when he first abandoned the Hobgoblin identity and set up Leeds to take the fall... Later he came back to kill Macendale which led to his unmasking and arrest. After getting away again, and currently living very comfortably in a tropical paradise he's going to need a good reason to risk taking up the Hobgoblin identity again...

Still, if they can come up with that reason, I'd love to see him back. He's one of my favorite Spidey villains and like I said, hasn't been done to death like many of the others.

[Mister Mets]

It's been time for a comeback for the last five years.

He's almost universally considered one of the best Spider-Man villains ever, so I'm surprised no writers have had stories to tell with him. I wouldn't want him to return because a writer just wants him to return, but someone's got to have a good plot.

Could it just be that the current Spider-Man writers haven't read "The Hobgoblin Lives" and 'Goblins at the Gate"?

[brundlefly]

Kingsley's Hobgoblin is my favorite all-time Spidey villain, so I'm torn on whether I'd like to see him return since I do really appreciate his current, fairly unique status as the villain who got away with it and lived happily ever after in the Carribean. :D

I would, of course, love to see him return in a major continuing role, but only under the pen of someone like Stern or another good Spidey writer who had a quality, long-term plan for him (along with a logical motive, given that he's happily retired at the moment), as opposed to seeing him come back to NYC, then promptly lose a slugfest with Spidey and end up in jail as just another Spidey-villain of the month. I think the reason a Hobgoblin return hasn't come up as an idea in the past so many years is that the current Spidey writers have been OD'ing on Green Goblin/Norman for so long that adding another Goblin-themed villain into the mix would be overkill. But since it looks like Norman will get drafted into Ellis' Thunderbolts (and off the Spidey books) for the foreseeable future, that could open a window of opportunity to bring back Kingsley.

[Nick MB]

I recall Paul Jenkins saying he had plans for a Hobgoblin storyline in Spectacular, before that series was cut short.

[genesis]

One of the first Spider-man stories i ever bought was the story Goblins at the Gate. To this day it has been one of my favorite stories mainly for the interactions between Kingsley and Osborn and I would love to see him come back in full glory.

[RedShark92]

Kingsley's Hobgoblin is my favorite all-time Spidey villain, so I'm torn on whether I'd like to see him return since I do really appreciate his current, fairly unique status as the villain who got away with it and lived happily ever after in the Carribean. :D

Agreed here. Coming into this fairly late has had me discovering the character retroactively, kind of. I’d read a handful of his appearances in the past and hadn’t really been that impressed with him, but my current more complete knowledge of the character’s history has shown me that those were all Macendale.

Kingsley’s story has kind of saddened me. I would like to see how Stern would have finished the story. The way it was done in Hobgoblin Lives wasn’t bad and was especially impressive considering how Stern re-wove the mess that was the original story into a relatively cohesive story with Kingsley behind the scenes. I think the Daniel/Roderick element would have felt a bit more natural if they’d had more time to develop them.

I would, of course, love to see him return in a major continuing role, but only under the pen of someone like Stern or another good Spidey writer who had a quality, long-term plan for him (along with a logical motive, given that he's happily retired at the moment), as opposed to seeing him come back to NYC, then promptly lose a slugfest with Spidey and end up in jail as just another Spidey-villain of the month.

I strongly agree here, and while I would like to see him back, I’d rather see no story with him at all than the example you describe where he becomes a joke.

Kingsley isn’t stupid. He made the mistake once of walking back into the role and it caused his unmasking and imprisonment. He’s not going to risk that again without a very good reason, especially considering how plum his current circumstances are. As I said above, as much as I’d like to see him in action again, it needs a very good writer to work.

I think the reason a Hobgoblin return hasn't come up as an idea in the past so many years is that the current Spidey writers have been OD'ing on Green Goblin/Norman for so long that adding another Goblin-themed villain into the mix would be overkill. But since it looks like Norman will get drafted into Ellis' Thunderbolts (and off the Spidey books) for the foreseeable future, that could open a window of opportunity to bring back Kingsley.

Well even though his powers and abilities are virtually the same as Norman’s (and both of them being a full step above any of the other past Goblins), Kingsley’s MO and goals are different than Norman’s.

I haven’t actually read any of the Norman appearances (I need to get Goblins at the Gate at the very least) since he’s come back, but I’ve typically found Kingsley to be a more interesting character. Not quite as brutal, but far more methodical. His use of doubles (for both the Kingsley and Hobgoblin identities) is a great example of that. I don’t recall Norman ever being so… subtle.

A good writer would recognize and highlight these differences so that Kingsley, now, as in his hey-day would read as something much deeper and more interesting than a simple Osborn knock-off.

[brundlefly]

Agreed here. Coming into this fairly late has had me discovering the character retroactively, kind of. I’d read a handful of his appearances in the past and hadn’t really been that impressed with him, but my current more complete knowledge of the character’s history has shown me that those were all Macendale.

You're lucky you came into the Hobgoblin story retroactively. The Ned Leeds reveal was my first unpleasant exposure as a young comics reader to what happens when a writer leaves a title mid-storyline and someone else takes over with a different take on where he wants it to go. After the anticlimactic nature of that reveal and Leeds' supposed motives for becoming the Hobgoblin, I checked the writing credits for Hobby's initial appearances and noticed the discrepancy in writer names. My theory about what happened was proven right when I read up on the Stern/Defalco writer switchup in later years. After the Leeds reveal, Macendale made Hobby a permanent D-lister and joke for years until HOBGOBLIN LIVES cleaned the mess up. I was so happy to see Macendale dead and the real Hobgoblin back that I didn't mind that Kingsley went to jail at the end of that mini.


Kingsley’s story has kind of saddened me. I would like to see how Stern would have finished the story. The way it was done in Hobgoblin Lives wasn’t bad and was especially impressive considering how Stern re-wove the mess that was the original story into a relatively cohesive story with Kingsley behind the scenes. I think the Daniel/Roderick element would have felt a bit more natural if they’d had more time to develop them.

I like that there was some neat pre-USUAL SUSPECTS Keyser Soze/Verbal Kint-style misdirection involved in Kingsley's public face vs. his Hobgoblin persona, as in public he was a preening, cowardly fop and as Hobby he was a ruthless criminal mastermind. No one would suspect the seemingly ineffectual fashion icon Kingsley of being the deadly Hobgoblin. It's fun to go back and spot those moments now (like Daniel-as-Roderick shrieking in ASM #249 that "He (Hobgoblin) could be anyone! He could even be one of us!!" right before Kingsley makes his entrance as Hobby by crashing his Gobin Glider through the window), but it is too bad that the story didn't get to play out as a natural coherent whole and instead took a several year "intermission." At least the original Hobgoblin got a fitting end, if Marvel chooses it to stay that way, of Kingsley, happy and retired in the Carribean vs. Ned Leeds, murdered and outwitted by Jason Macendale of all people.



I strongly agree here, and while I would like to see him back, I’d rather see no story with him at all than the example you describe where he becomes a joke.

Kingsley isn’t stupid. He made the mistake once of walking back into the role and it caused his unmasking and imprisonment. He’s not going to risk that again without a very good reason, especially considering how plum his current circumstances are. As I said above, as much as I’d like to see him in action again, it needs a very good writer to work.

That's the problem with him returning: no credible motive. He's not a psycho with a thing for Peter, like Norman, and he already has money and a cushy lifestyle. The only thing that might prompt him to return is power. But having spent time in jail, would he potentially risk his freedom for it?



Well even though his powers and abilities are virtually the same as Norman’s (and both of them being a full step above any of the other past Goblins), Kingsley’s MO and goals are different than Norman’s.

I haven’t actually read any of the Norman appearances (I need to get Goblins at the Gate at the very least) since he’s come back, but I’ve typically found Kingsley to be a more interesting character. Not quite as brutal, but far more methodical. His use of doubles (for both the Kingsley and Hobgoblin identities) is a great example of that. I don’t recall Norman ever being so… subtle.

That's because he wasn't. Norman was presented as an unstable Jekyll-and-Hyde case most of the time up until the death of Gwen, and when he was 'Hyde' he was usually singlemindedly trying to destroy Peter, either directly or through putting his loved ones in danger, and then trying in his spare time to take over the New York criminal underworld. Only after his resurrection did Marvel start portraying him as a poor man's Lex Luthor, coolly and patiently scheming and crafting Machiavellian plans-within-plans. Coincidentally, they were writing him a lot more like Kingsley than his actual pre-death portrayal. I'd like to see Norman take a long trek away from the Spidey books with Ellis' THUNDERBOLTS, which would leave a spot on the Spidey-villain roster open for Hobgoblin. And if Norman is stripped of his company and his wealth due to his criminal conviction, who might wish to return at that point to return the favor and seize Osborn's company but Kingsley? That might be a credible reason for his return, as Osborn stole Kingsley's company in GOBLINS AT THE GATE and absorbed it into his own holdings.

[RedShark92]

After the Leeds reveal, Macendale made Hobby a permanent D-lister and joke for years until HOBGOBLIN LIVES cleaned the mess up. I was so happy to see Macendale dead and the real Hobgoblin back that I didn't mind that Kingsley went to jail at the end of that mini.

Macendale’s status as a joke is actually one of the reasons I felt the need to dig deeper. I’d read a handful of his appearances and he didn’t seem to match up well with the reputation that the Hobgoblin had.

could even be one of us!!" right before Kingsley makes his entrance as Hobby by crashing his Gobin Glider through the window), but it is too bad that the story didn't get to play out as a natural coherent whole and instead took a several year "intermission." At least the original Hobgoblin got a fitting end, if Marvel chooses it to stay that way, of Kingsley, happy and retired in the Carribean vs. Ned Leeds, murdered and outwitted by Jason Macendale of all people.

Definitely agree here. I’ve since read some of the issues and I really would have liked to be able to see Stern’s gradual building of the story towards the eventual Kingsley reveal. I felt that the Roderick/Daniel reveal in Hobgoblin Lives felt a little rushed, but at that point Stern didn’t have much choice.

That's the problem with him returning: no credible motive. He's not a psycho with a thing for Peter, like Norman, and he already has money and a cushy lifestyle. The only thing that might prompt him to return is power. But having spent time in jail, would he potentially risk his freedom for it?

I agree and that’s why it needs a good writer to pull it off. Still – as I said – I would rather have no story than a bad one… I think one possible motive for him to resume the role would be something that threatened his current lifestyle.

That's because he wasn't. Norman was presented as an unstable Jekyll-and-Hyde case most of the time up until the death of Gwen, and when he was 'Hyde' he was usually singlemindedly trying to destroy Peter, either directly or through putting his loved ones in danger, and then trying in his spare time to take over the New York criminal underworld. Only after his resurrection did Marvel start portraying him as a poor man's Lex Luthor, coolly and patiently scheming and crafting Machiavellian plans-within-plans.

This is something that bothered me about the Norman come-back. As I said I haven’t read any of the issues, but the description of Norman as that type of behind the scenes manipulator didn’t seem to jibe well with what I knew of the character.

Coincidentally, they were writing him a lot more like Kingsley than his actual pre-death portrayal. I'd like to see Norman take a long trek away from the Spidey

I’m not sure if I’m in the majority or minority, but as much as I like Norman, I think I would have preferred he remain dead.

books with Ellis' THUNDERBOLTS, which would leave a spot on the Spidey-villain roster open for Hobgoblin. And if Norman is stripped of his company and his wealth due to his criminal conviction, who might wish to return at that point to return the favor and seize Osborn's company but Kingsley? That might be a credible reason for his return, as Osborn stole Kingsley's company in GOBLINS AT THE GATE and absorbed it into his own holdings.

I could see Roderick doing that. Of course, he’s still a wanted man in the U.S., correct? What is Daniel’s current status? An interesting turn-about could be Roderick masquering as Daniel to avoid arrest, but I don’t know if Daniel’s current status makes that likely, or even possible.

[brundlefly]

Macendale’s status as a joke is actually one of the reasons I felt the need to dig deeper. I’d read a handful of his appearances and he didn’t seem to match up well with the reputation that the Hobgoblin had.

The sudden whiplash-inducing direction change for the Hobgoblin made me pretty sad at the time. He went from being my favorite Spidey villain and an A-list mastermind to a forgettable mercenary goon whose recurring gimmick was that he was nowhere near as formidable or competent as his predecessor in the Hobgoblin identity.


I agree and that’s why it needs a good writer to pull it off. Still – as I said – I would rather have no story than a bad one… I think one possible motive for him to resume the role would be something that threatened his current lifestyle.

That's a good idea, too. I think that's kind of what they used in the alt-future universe of SPIDER-GIRL recently to bring him out of retirement (a threat to his lifestyle/freedom).



This is something that bothered me about the Norman come-back. As I said I haven’t read any of the issues, but the description of Norman as that type of behind the scenes manipulator didn’t seem to jibe well with what I knew of the character.

I’m not sure if I’m in the majority or minority, but as much as I like Norman, I think I would have preferred he remain dead.

There are yeas and nays on both sides of that issue. I thought Norman worked much better dead, as he was a "mad dog" type of character who would keep coming at you until either you were dead or he was, so eventually he had to die. And he can never top killing Gwen (Norman potentially killing MJ will just seem like an unoriginal "redux" of killing Gwen) in regards to how much he can hurt Peter, so why bring him back? Plus I liked that his villainous legacy as the Goblin lived on in Harry and to a further extended degree in the Hobgoblin, so that Peter's life could technically never be free of Norman's influence. The current version, coolly scheming and biding his time in his corporate tower, just doesn't ring to me as true to the original interpretation of the mad Green Goblin and seems more a watered-down knockoff of Wilson Fisk or DC's Lex Luthor.

And finally, the explanation for Norman's return was just silly and intelligence-insulting. "My never-before-seen Goblin healing factor brought me back from the dead, then I went on vacation to Europe for decades to plan my revenge on you!" :rolleyes:


I could see Roderick doing that. Of course, he’s still a wanted man in the U.S., correct? What is Daniel’s current status? An interesting turn-about could be Roderick masquering as Daniel to avoid arrest, but I don’t know if Daniel’s current status makes that likely, or even possible.

A neat twist would see him fiendishly producing new evidence framing Daniel as the Hobgoblin and claiming that he himself was merely a brainwashed dupe, clearing his name and then coldbloodedly having Daniel killed in prison before he could mount a defense to the frame-up. He was pretty peeved with Daniel when they last met and Roddy's extremely ruthless, so I could see him sacrificing his own brother to ensure his own freedom. I'm not sure as to Daniel's current status, he hasn't been seen since GOBLINS AT THE GATE to my knowledge.

[RedShark92]

That's a good idea, too. I think that's kind of what they used in the alt-future universe of SPIDER-GIRL recently to bring him out of retirement (a threat to his lifestyle/freedom).

Does he come back as Hobby? Is that story worth hunting down?

There are yeas and nays on both sides of that issue. I thought Norman worked much better dead, as he was a "mad dog" type of character who would keep coming at you until either you were dead or he was, so eventually he had to die. And he can never top killing Gwen (Norman potentially killing MJ will just seem like an unoriginal

I agree with all of this. The problem with the “mad dog” type of thing is limited storytelling possibilities. I think that’s the same thing that hurt Venom as a potential long-term villain. Norman was more fleshed out than Eddie and had some long-term potential, but it’s telling that they had to completely re-write him to a different type of character when they brought him back.

And finally, the explanation for Norman's return was just silly and intelligence-insulting. "My never-before-seen Goblin healing factor brought me back from the dead, then I went on vacation to Europe for decades to plan my revenge on you!" :rolleyes:

Agreed, completely. Just seemed shoe-horned in. Plus it’s a comic stereotype for dead guys to come back to life, which is why I find it even more obnoxious when someone who was obviously intended to actually be dead for good is brought back. Kinda the way I felt about Mark Waid’s “Return of Barry Allen” story before the big reveal in that story.

A neat twist would see him fiendishly producing new evidence framing Daniel as the Hobgoblin and claiming that he himself was merely a brainwashed dupe, clearing his name and then coldbloodedly having Daniel killed in prison before he could mount a defense to the frame-up. He was pretty peeved with Daniel when they last met and Roddy's extremely ruthless, so I could see him sacrificing his own brother to ensure his own freedom. I'm not sure as to Daniel's current status, he hasn't been seen since GOBLINS AT THE GATE to my knowledge.

That would be awesome and completely in tune with his past motives and methods. As an aside, I loved how he addressed Daniel simply as “Kingsley” whenever he was in his Hobgoblin guise. It worked for Stern as a method to help hide Roderick’s identity, but it also fit Roderick perfectly and was a good indication of his opinion of Daniel.

[brundlefly]

Does he come back as Hobby? Is that story worth hunting down?

Yes, he returns as the Hobgoblin, though again it's in an alternate future and all that. But it is intended to be the post-GOBLINS AT THE GATE Roderick Kingsley whose Carribean vacation is interrupted and he is forced to become the Hobgoblin once more.

Depends on how much of a fan you are of Spider-Girl, I suppose (I'm not particularly a fan). The art homages to Stern/Romita Jr.'s initial Hobgoblin run are very cool, though, and Hobgoblin is portrayed with all his previous intimidating menace and power. Those aspects alone make the issues worth checking out if you're a Hobgoblin fan. I only caught the last two Hobby appearances since I didn't follow that book regularly and didn't know he was appearing in it. I'm waiting to see if his arc gets picked up in TPB form (it was part of the supposed end of the SPIDER-GIRL series itself, so I'm guessing that it will).



I agree with all of this. The problem with the “mad dog” type of thing is limited storytelling possibilities. I think that’s the same thing that hurt Venom as a potential long-term villain. Norman was more fleshed out than Eddie and had some long-term potential, but it’s telling that they had to completely re-write him to a different type of character when they brought him back.


I thought Venom had initially picked up the role of "mad dog stalker who knows Pete is Spider-Man" from Norman fairly effectively before he became an overused joke. I generally like having a character who fits that mold in the Spidey universe, the one who embodies the danger of his life as Spider-Man crossing over into his life as Peter Parker. But with the Civil War "unmasking," that concept is unnecessary at the moment. Agreed with you that both characters (Norman and Venom) have seen their characters and motives altered to seemingly give them more longevity, from Venom as anti-hero to Norman as patient mastermind, but I think in both cases it just watered them down and made them less menacing.

[drinkblatzbeer]

i'm willing to bet we see something with hobgoblin soon after civil war...

i actually think the editors have had something to do with it, maybe to the effect of holding him back purposely to make big comeback now that spidey's ID has been revealed...

[RedShark92]

are very cool, though, and Hobgoblin is portrayed with all his previous intimidating menace and power. Those aspects alone make the issues worth checking out if you're a Hobgoblin fan. I only caught the last two Hobby appearances since I didn't follow that

Definitely sounds like it’d be up my alley. I guess I’ll have to hunt them down.

I thought Venom had initially picked up the role of "mad dog stalker who knows Pete is Spider-Man" from Norman fairly effectively before he became an overused joke.

I do agree, it just seems that it didn’t take very long for Venom to become a joke. I’d say he crossed the line for good right around the time they introduced Carnage for the first time in ASM (what, around 360?).

Plus, even before Venom became a joke, I think there were more storytelling possibilities with Norman, mostly due to his direction connection to Pete’s personal life via Harry.

Also – I’m not fully up on my GG history, but from what I’ve read it seems he was relatively stable (as stable as anybody who flies around in a goblin costume and purple tights on a rocket-sled shaped like a giant bat can be, that is) before the big unmasking issue. I know we’d only met Norman a few issues before that, but it seems, from the way he was portrayed that the personalities were fairly integrated and it was only after the shocking he got in that battle with Spidey that the personalities splintered and we had a clear “Goblin” personality and a clear “Norman” personality. It seems like his mad-dog status started around that time.

As I said, I haven’t read any of the more recent Norman appearances, but is it accurate to say that the Norman/Goblin personalities are more integrated again? That would explain somewhat his change in tactics, but I still have a hard time seeing him in a “master manipulator” type role. Even before he totally lost it, that wasn’t his style.

Agreed with you that both characters (Norman and Venom) have seen their characters and motives altered to seemingly give them more longevity, from Venom as anti-hero to Norman as patient mastermind, but I think in both cases it just watered them down and made them less menacing.

I fully agree. I never liked Venom as anti-hero. He always made the claim that he was for protecting the innocent, but he was either a hypocrite or insane (or some combination), because he was shown intentionally killing innocents in his pursuit of Spider-man several times. Even an anti-hero has to have some level of consistent morality and Venom never seemed to have that.

As for Norman, well, I’m not up on his current story so I can’t say, but we’ve already talked about that some.

[brundlefly]

.
I do agree, it just seems that it didn’t take very long for Venom to become a joke. I’d say he crossed the line for good right around the time they introduced Carnage for the first time in ASM (what, around 360?).

Plus, even before Venom became a joke, I think there were more storytelling possibilities with Norman, mostly due to his direction connection to Pete’s personal life via Harry.

Yeah, Venom's tenure as Pete's worst nightmare ended around the time Carnage got introduced (or even a little before), as he became a little too comical and over-the-top and they were laying the groundwork for his "anti-hero" makeover by giving him a warped sense of honor, which had the side-effect of making him less threatening. Actually, I really liked Harry as Gobin, since best-friend-turned-worst-enemy is such a simple, primal idea. Harry knew Peter well enough to know exactly how to hurt him (see LIFETHEFT for example) and it's a shame that he's gone, since he had a lot of story potential.


Also – I’m not fully up on my GG history, but from what I’ve read it seems he was relatively stable (as stable as anybody who flies around in a goblin costume and purple tights on a rocket-sled shaped like a giant bat can be, that is) before the big unmasking issue. I know we’d only met Norman a few issues before that, but it seems, from the way he was portrayed that the personalities were fairly integrated and it was only after the shocking he got in that battle with Spidey that the personalities splintered and we had a clear “Goblin” personality and a clear “Norman” personality. It seems like his mad-dog status started around that time.

As I said, I haven’t read any of the more recent Norman appearances, but is it accurate to say that the Norman/Goblin personalities are more integrated again? That would explain somewhat his change in tactics, but I still have a hard time seeing him in a “master manipulator” type role. Even before he totally lost it, that wasn’t his style.

Well, prior to the unmasking, GG's identity was unknown to the reader as well as Peter, with few hints as to who he was. Having Norman Osborn acting suspiciously might have tipped off the reader and spoiled the surprise, so he was portrayed mostly as just Harry's dad (although even before the accident that created the Goblin, he wasn't a very nice guy). I think the dual personality concept was used to both keep Norman as a supporting cast member in the books and to put a leash on the "he knows Pete is Spidey" idea (they couldn't very well put him in jail, knowing what he knew about Peter). That way the Goblin could be brought back on occasion, complete with his knowledge of Pete's secret, but they had a "bottle" to put him back into at the end of the stories. My theory is that prior to the unmasking but immediately following the Goblin formula exposure, Norman was classic sociopath (the totally insane "Goblin" personality dominant), but able to fake the human mask that was necessary for everyday human interaction. The fluctuation in Osborn Industries profits during his initial time as the Gobin could be attributed to it no longer being his main concern (funneling company money into building his Gobin weapons and paraphenalia, daydreaming about killing Spider-Man and taking over New York's underworld during board meetings, etc.) due to a "break" with reality. Then during the split-personality period, there was a night-and-day divide between the psychotic Goblin persona and the more humane Norman (who was portrayed pretty sympathetically). These days, he's back to the Goblin-sociopath-persona all the time, but being written more like Lex Luthor (or Kingsley, as I said earlier) instead of the Joker or other similar psychotics. I think it's probably based on Marvel's hokey resurrection story of him hiding in Europe for decades and masterminding the clone saga from afar, so now every writer protrays him as a cool, logical mastermind instead of the sadistic lunatic Goblin, which I think dilutes his menace as well as being out of character with his original portrayal. What made Norman and Kingsley different was their approaches; Osborn's impulsive, sadistic insanity vs. Kingsley's logical, methodical scheming (remember his constant denials that he "wasn't insane like Osborn"?). Rewriting Norman into his current portrayal makes their methods too similar now, in my opinion, and I liked Norman better as an obsessive, deadly lunatic, not a corporate CEO/criminal mastermind who dresses up as a Goblin when the mood strikes him.


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I fully agree. I never liked Venom as anti-hero. He always made the claim that he was for protecting the innocent, but he was either a hypocrite or insane (or some combination), because he was shown intentionally killing innocents in his pursuit of Spider-man several times. Even an anti-hero has to have some level of consistent morality and Venom never seemed to have that.


Venom was turned into a "hero" during the height of the anti-heroes (Wolverine, Punisher) and villains-turned-hero (Deadpool, Sabretooth to an extent) craze. I thought he was effective as a Spidey rogue, but totally unreadable as the star of his own adventures. Plus as you noted, he was written really inconsistenly and the only thing differing writers could seem to agree on was the drooling tongue and the brain-eating comments. I think he might see a return to his original state, though, what with his role in the upcoming movie and all.

[RedShark92]

giving him a warped sense of honor, which had the side-effect of making him less threatening. Actually, I really liked Harry as Gobin, since best-friend-turned-worst-enemy is such a simple, primal idea. Harry knew Peter well enough to know exactly how to hurt him (see LIFETHEFT for example) and it's a shame that he's gone, since he had a lot of story potential.

I picked up the “Son of the Goblin” trade which features the bulk of Harry’s Green Goblin appearances. I was kind of disappointed in how few of them there really were. What I found most disappointing was that Harry was only set up as a really major threat for several issues before he was killed.

Seems very much like a missed opportunity. Speaking of missed opportunities, how cool could the infamous “Green Goblin vs. Hobgoblin” issue have been if they’d had Kingsley vs. a fully powered and brutally insane Harry instead of Macendale vs. an un-powered and “soft” Harry.

dominant), but able to fake the human mask that was necessary for everyday human interaction. The fluctuation in Osborn Industries profits during his initial time as the Gobin could be attributed to it no longer being his main concern (funneling company money into building his Gobin weapons and paraphenalia, daydreaming about killing Spider-Man and taking over New York's underworld during board meetings, etc.) due to a "break" with reality.

This all makes sense. I’ve kind of figured that when Osborn first set up the Green Goblin, his motives were fairly simple: It gave him an outlet for his baser desires as well as an opportunity to move about in underworld circles without tarnishing his respectability in the normal circles he moved in. I think the Goblin personality only gradually took over Norman, leading up to the “split” where they actually became two distinct personalities. Sadly, as you’ve said that aspect of his personality seems to have been left behind.

Then during the split-personality period, there was a night-and-day divide between the psychotic Goblin persona and the more humane Norman (who was portrayed pretty sympathetically).

This aspect of Norman is another big part of why he was able to remain interesting for a longer time than Venom.

Venom was turned into a "hero" during the height of the anti-heroes (Wolverine, Punisher) and villains-turned-hero (Deadpool, Sabretooth to an extent) craze. I thought he was effective as a Spidey rogue, but totally unreadable as the star of his own adventures. Plus as you noted, he was written really inconsistenly and the only thing differing writers could seem to agree on was the drooling tongue and the brain-eating comments. I think he might see a return to his original state, though, what with his role in the upcoming movie and all.

We can hope. As I said in another thread, I think I’d rather seem them take the symbiote in a completely new direction rather than having it be set up as a weaker version of the Brock-Venom.

Inconsistent is a kind word for some of the irregularities. ;)

[Magneto Rocks]

I realise I'm in the minority here but I always liked Hobgobby's costume better than Norman's. The hood and cape are always great for a villain :P

I'm in two minds. As far as I'm aware, Kingsley is the only major Spidey villain who was gone for good (besides Harry Golin) - it'd be a shame to have that go away, since the same villains get tiresome. (Although, Scorpion and Brock have kinda gone the same way to a sense)

But I also agree he's a great character :D

Furthermore, I want to agree that Norman's return was horrible. Ever since then, he's lived in the shadow of the death of Gwen, used in horrible story after horrible story. I'd love to see old plots of his being fulfilled, etc, and even the THREAT of his resurrection, without it taking place.

Osborne is a far better villain when dead.

[brundlefly]

I picked up the “Son of the Goblin” trade which features the bulk of Harry’s Green Goblin appearances. I was kind of disappointed in how few of them there really were. What I found most disappointing was that Harry was only set up as a really major threat for several issues before he was killed.

I think they left some of Harry's Goblin appearances out of that TPB. There was kind of a slow burn to him becoming the Goblin for the final time in Spectacular Spider-Man, starting with THE CHILD WITHIN (SSM #178-184), plus there was also some fun stuff with him in an asylum after his initial defeat in SSM #189, and it all finally led up to his death in #200. Also, I did enjoy the reveal in the PURSUIT arc, after he had already died, of his cruel role in the "Peter's parents" scheme. I don't think any of that stuff is included in the SON OF THE GOBLIN trade, but I could be wrong.




Seems very much like a missed opportunity. Speaking of missed opportunities, how cool could the infamous “Green Goblin vs. Hobgoblin” issue have been if they’d had Kingsley vs. a fully powered and brutally insane Harry instead of Macendale vs. an un-powered and “soft” Harry.

There was another thread in the Spidey section where I theorized a "Goblin War" storyline in the current Spidey titles involving a returned Kingsley/Hobgoblin and a resurrected Harry/Green Goblin (the proposed "out" being that he used chemical means to simulate heart failure in SSM #200) versus Norman/Green Goblin, as they are the "Big Three" of the Goblin persona and both Kingsley and Harry have reason to hate Norman (Kingsley financially for Norman stealing his company, Harry emotionally for all his mistreatment at Norman's hands). But yeah, a Hobs vs. Green matchup of Kingsley vs. Harry (with Harry in circa SSM #189 Goblin mode) would be pretty awesome and much better than the anemic matchup of Macendale vs. civilian Harry.

[mattx110]

with how nice and terrific his current life is, and the fact that he's not insane, and hates norman, and doesn't seem to have any malice toward spiderman... kingsley would make more sense coming back as a hero. he'd probably be anti-registration too. he's good at being evil, but he wasn't evil so much as goal-oriented. he wanted money and power, so he got it. he did a lot of evil things, but he doesn't seem to have any motivation to do anything bad anymore. he might as well get a new identity and be a hero for a while.

[RedShark92]

I realise I'm in the minority here but I always liked Hobgobby's costume better than Norman's. The hood and cape are always great for a villain :P

I’m actually with you there. I actually find the Hobgoblin costume to be a little less goofy looking than the Green Goblin costume, while still keeping a similar feel. I think a large part of that is the hood over the face instead of the full face mask, but also because the colors are a bit more muted and not quite so garish.

I'm in two minds. As far as I'm aware, Kingsley is the only major Spidey villain who was gone for good (besides Harry Golin) - it'd be a shame to have that go away, since the same villains get tiresome. (Although, Scorpion and Brock have kinda gone the same way to a sense)

Well Kingsley never died, and while he would need a good reason to come out of retirement at least they wouldn’t be undoing a classic death scene (a la Norman).

If he is used again I’d like it to be a long-term story (like the one where he was introduced) and not just a throwaway appearance where he stupidly shows up for no reason just long enough for Spidey to thrash him and toss him back in jail. Kingsley’s smarter than that and I hope they don’t go that route.

Osborne is a far better villain when dead.

He was a great villain who had a great ending. To my mind bringing him back cheapened that story. Peter Parker lost so much to Norman Osborn that anything he does now will either fall short of that, or will feel like a cheap attempt to top it.

They had two great possibilities for solid successors to Osborn’s legacy and they messed them both up. Harry as a new Green Goblin, who was killed the second he became a solid, credible threat to Peter and Kingsley as the Hobgoblin who’s original story was ruined by too many hands in the pot. Kingsley was saved by Stern, at least, but he’s been virtually ignored (except for the brief appearance in Goblins at the Gate) since then and it’s too late for Harry…

Even sadder considering the differences between the Green and Hobgoblins would have allowed both Harry and Roderick to co-exist as major Spidey villains despite having virtually identical powers and abilities, but instead of two of them, we get neither.

[brundlefly]

I'm also a big fan of Hobby's orange-and-black take on the Goblin duds. And I liked the cloak and hood, which often ghoulishly cloaked his face except for his eyes, and thought they were cool additions to the outfit.

When I first started reading the Spidey titles Norman was already dead, but his legacy hung over the titles like a shroud and he was referenced in hushed whispers as Spidey's gone-but-never-forgotten deadliest foe and Gwen's murderer. As time went on, his influence would eventually corrupt his son Harry and ruin Peter's relationship with his best friend, as well as being the genesis for the birth of the original Hobgoblin, Spidey's major foe for much of the 80s. Then is SSM circa #189-200, they even insinuated that young Normie would continue down the path of his grandfather. Norman's influence and insane legacy were threats in their own right, but intangible ones that Spidey couldn't simply beat up and physically defeat. I thought Norman was more effective that way than he is now, where he's so obscenely overexposed and almost cartoonishly evil that he's hard to take seriously as a threat anymore. He had a great death scene that capped his crowning moment of evil and wrecking that by resurrecting him for a short-term gain was a terrible hack job.

[RedShark92]

I'm also a big fan of Hobby's orange-and-black take on the Goblin duds. And I liked the cloak and hood, which often ghoulishly cloaked his face except for his eyes, and thought they were cool additions to the outfit.

Like the far off shots where all you saw under the hood was black and the two red eyes… Super creepy, kind of reminiscent of a wraith or Tolkien’s Nazgul.

simply beat up and physically defeat. I thought Norman was more effective that way than he is now, where he's so obscenely overexposed and almost cartoonishly evil that he's hard to take seriously as a threat anymore. He had a great death scene that capped his crowning moment of evil and wrecking that by resurrecting him for a short-term gain was a terrible hack job.

Yeah pretty much… like I’ve said, I thought Kingsley’s Hobgoblin was a great way to add something new to the “goblin” idea, and Harry following his father’s path would allow them to continue a Norman style Green Goblin with a new twist. If those stories had been developed properly, there wouldn’t have been any need (real or imagined) to bring back Norman.

I’m not totally against bringing dead characters back… it is kind of a comics stereotype and it would be nice if it was minimized, though. How can there be any drama if there’s never any finality? This is especially worse in cases like Norman, or Barry Allen, characters who were obviously intended to be really and truly dead.

and it all finally led up to his death in #200. Also, I did enjoy the reveal in the PURSUIT arc, after he had already died, of his cruel role in the "Peter's parents" scheme. I don't think any of that stuff is included in the SON OF THE GOBLIN trade, but I could be wrong.

You’re right. They do make reference to some of the issues you’re talking about, but they only include the major appearances.

his mistreatment at Norman's hands). But yeah, a Hobs vs. Green matchup of Kingsley vs. Harry (with Harry in circa SSM #189 Goblin mode) would be pretty awesome and much better than the anemic matchup of Macendale vs. civilian Harry.

Never to be I guess. It is possible that we’d see a Roderick/Norman match-up though and that could be cool.

[Venom]

I recall Paul Jenkins saying he had plans for a Hobgoblin storyline in Spectacular, before that series was cut short.

Actually it was going to be in "Peter Parker Spider-Man" but it was replaced with "A Death In The Family".

[Sonicjuce]

I don't know if someone mentioned this, but instead of Kingsley coming back it should be someone else. Like many have pointed out their is little to no reason for Kinsley to actually come back, and knowing his character he shouldn't. I would prefer that he has maybe been training someone new, and then we would have the whole mystery of his identity again.

I want to see hobgoblin again though for sure.

[666andahalf]

I don't know if someone mentioned this, but instead of Kingsley coming back it should be someone else. Like many have pointed out their is little to no reason for Kinsley to actually come back, and knowing his character he shouldn't.

Maybe he could screw with Flash Thompson's mind now that he has amnesia making him think he was the Hobgoblin back when he was originally framed.

[Blight]

If your a fan of the Kingsley Hobgoblin then the last four issues of Spider-Girl and adding Amazing Spider-Girl to your pull list is a must. DeFalco made original Hobgoblin Mayday's Public Enemy #1 with what he did in a span of four issues. Highlight for his dastardly deeds in the book.

He tracked down and beat within an inch of their life four of Spider-Girl's close allies then strung them up on a fence for May and Normie to find. He again almost took the life of another close friend in May's life in both superhero and personal. Almost killed May numerous times if not for Kaine, Peter, or the Venom Symbiote who Hobby killed. Now in Amazing Spider-Girl it seems he's ready to finish what he began back in the original Hobgoblin Saga and become the new Kingpin of crime using his brother Daniel once more. As you can see Roderick has well on his way become quite a rogue in Mayday's gallery.

Though if Roderick was to return to 616 it's rather easy thanks to Stern. No doubt after a year or two (comic time) of being in the Carribean has made Roderick bored. I mean sure he's still rich and in heaven but thanks to Spider-Man and Green Goblin he can't show his face. Much like before when he gave the Hobgoblin id up after framing Ned, maybe once again he misses that urge to don the suit and show off that power he has.

Now both Peter and Norman have been outed in their respective ids. Norman has lost his company and no doubt a ton of his business empire. No doubt an idea is festering in Roderick that not only he can retake his lost holdings but more. Then maybe Roddy will get that urge again to become the Hobgoblin to stick it to both Spider-Man and the Green Goblin and attack them in both costume and finiacially.

If you read Hobby's Wiki entry it was said that PAD wanted to write Roderick Kingsley Hobgoblin but was told no too and thus he wrote that story with Uncle Ben and the future Hobgoblin instead. Also a Hobgoblin (obviously not Roderick given he never lower himself to this) was working with other supervillains in Secret War.

Roderick is coming back just the question is when and what book.

[Venom]

Roderick is coming back just the question is when and what book.

Well it certainly aint going to be in "Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man" since they wouldn't let PAD use him. JMS using a classic villian!? :eek: Preposterous! My best bet is that it'll happen in "Sensational Spider-Man" seeing as they have been bringing in quite a lot of long absence Spidey villians.

[Mideon]

Hobgoblin needs to come back cause he was just so badass. He was a straight criminal, and his focus was purely on the bottom line. He hated Spider-Man of course, but didn't obsess over him or hatch schemes to bring him down. He just hoped to avoid him, and fight him when nessecary.

Basically, to me, Hobgoblin epitomized the "I don't give a FUCK!" attitude that I so enjoy.

[Violently Apathetic]

Got to add my voice to those praising the Hobgoblin's role in Spider-Girl. He's really at his best in these stories and it sounds like he is being set up as one of May's major foes, if not her greatest foe period. She recognized right off the bat that she was facing with a man who was leagues above the types she was used to dealing with as he quickly and ruthlessly steamrolled over many of the MC2's fledgling and even well established heroes. He comes across as competent, intelligent and incredibly dangerous in Spider-Girl and long time time Hobgoblin fans REALLY need to check it out.

That said, as much as I love the Hobgoblin (and I do, he is my favourite Spidey baddie) I'd almost be more comfortable if he stuck to Spider-Girl for a while, at least until the environment in the MU calms down. As it is now, with Norman still playing a major role, the return of the Hobgoblin would just seem rather redudent and people would be too busy comparing him to Norman to recognize this own strengths as a villain. I say let him continue to dominate the stage in Spider-Girl and wait a few years for Norman's presence to lessen in 616 before bringing back the one true Hobgoblin.

That, and I don't trust many of the current writers to use him in a way I'd like...*picky*

[mattx110]

i like the idea of him training a replacement, but does anybody remember the big "who's the green goblin now that osborn has become a crimelord who doesn't dress in costumes anymore?" mystery?
cause i sure don't... who was that guy?
anyway, those were good times, except it's hard to believe the Jameson hasn't had like 15 heart attacks so far. i've got probably 6 separate issues (within 20 years) where he goes "this paper is going under and we need to save it!" and yells at his staff.

[Blight]

Well it certainly aint going to be in "Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man" since they wouldn't let PAD use him. JMS using a classic villian!? :eek: Preposterous! My best bet is that it'll happen in "Sensational Spider-Man" seeing as they have been bringing in quite a lot of long absence Spidey villians.


Well JMS did use Norman for a small tale. :rolleyes: :p Yeah Sensational and Friendly have been a treat. I mean with PAD bringing back Mysterio and Sensational bringing back Puma (geez when was the last time I heard that name in a Spidey book the 90s? lol).

But I agree.. Hobgoblin returning is something that should be a big event in a Spidey book. I mean hell it's been what almost TEN YEARS since Hobby's appeared. Though least Hobby been such a pleasant meance in Spider-Girl I think any return in 616 can wait.

[brundlefly]

Got to add my voice to those praising the Hobgoblin's role in Spider-Girl. He's really at his best in these stories and it sounds like he is being set up as one of May's major foes, if not her greatest foe period. She recognized right off the bat that she was facing with a man who was leagues above the types she was used to dealing with as he quickly and ruthlessly steamrolled over many of the MC2's fledgling and even well established heroes. He comes across as competent, intelligent and incredibly dangerous in Spider-Girl and long time time Hobgoblin fans REALLY need to check it out.

That said, as much as I love the Hobgoblin (and I do, he is my favourite Spidey baddie) I'd almost be more comfortable if he stuck to Spider-Girl for a while, at least until the environment in the MU calms down. As it is now, with Norman still playing a major role, the return of the Hobgoblin would just seem rather redudent and people would be too busy comparing him to Norman to recognize this own strengths as a villain. I say let him continue to dominate the stage in Spider-Girl and wait a few years for Norman's presence to lessen in 616 before bringing back the one true Hobgoblin.

That, and I don't trust many of the current writers to use him in a way I'd like...*picky*

Totally agree with you on all that; it was nice to see a "return to glory" for Hobs in the Spider-Girl title, as he came across as an unstoppable force that May had to call in all her reinforcements to fight. And likewise, I'd only want to see him in Marvel 616 with the right writer behind him and as the focal point of a lengthy plotline in the Spidey books, as opposed to getting overshadowed by Civil War, Norman, or whatever else is going on. Hence, Spider-Girl (did it get cancelled again? I can never keep up with its cancelled/not cancelled status) is an effective showcase for his villainy in the interim. As to some of the prior suggestions of him training a replacement, that seems a little benevolent for Kingsley. I see him more likely brainwashing another dupe (a la Lefty Donovan, Ned Leeds) into returning to New York as "the Hobgoblin" to test the waters for him (or carry out some nefarious plan involving framing Daniel, so that Roddy can return without those pesky criminal charges hounding him) before having said dupe take his own life afterwards to tie up the loose ends.

[Violently Apathetic]

Hence, Spider-Girl (did it get cancelled again? I can never keep up with its cancelled/not cancelled status) is an effective showcase for his villainy in the interim.

Spider-Girl has been relaunched with a new number 1, so it should be around for a while yet. Judging by the solicits it sounds like the Hobgoblin is sticking around and is actually making a bid for the role of Kingpin in the MC2 Universe. Should be interesting.

[Venom]

Yes! It all makes sense now. I think I know who's going to bring Hobgoblin back. Jeph Loeb & J. Scott Campbell!!!

[Blight]

Yes! It all makes sense now. I think I know who's going to bring Hobgoblin back. Jeph Loeb & J. Scott Campbell!!!

Loeb handling Hobgoblin would be interesting.