Pick Your Retcon 2: Phoenix!

[HellFrost]

Today's topic is Jean Grey: Died on the moon or hid in a cacoon?

Choice 1: Jean Grey is Phoenix and died on the moon.

In Claremont's original telling of the fateful final battle of the Phoenix, Jean Grey nobly sacrificed herself to save those she loved, ending the threat of the Phoenix "forever" (evidently, she didn't know the definition of the word 'phoenix'). This version of the story includes Jean and Phoenix being one in the same, and that Jean rose from Jamaica Bay in Uncanny X-Men 101. This version also seems to be the version more supported by Grant Morrison's run (ie: repeatedly stating that Jean 'turned into' Phoenix, as opposed to being replaced by it).

Choice 2: Jean Grey was replaced by Phoenix and didn't appear from Uncanny 100 until Avengers 263.

In the later retconed version, Jean herself was "stored" in a cacoon by the Phoenix who cloned her, and pretended to be her. This version requires accepting that Jean Grey was never Phoenix during Claremont's origin run. This version was also the version supported by the original X-Factor series, which the retcon was created to add Jean to the roster of.

My choice:

While I don't necessarily love Jean as the all-powerful, all-godly, ever indestructable, unstoppable (you get the idea) Phoenix, I really hate clones. 'Cept for Maddie. Who I love. :p But really, Jean was in a cacoon? Some "marvel" girl she was. Cast your votes!

[PhoenixBoyX]

I=love Jeanie.

Jeanie=Phoenix.

Clones=Stupid.

'Nuff said.

-Nick, who also likes Maddie, but Maddie isn't in the poll, so I hate clones.

[Beast]

You forgot the later clarification retcons that stated that Jean is the Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean. And that the Cocoon was actually the same thing as the Phoenix Egg. That the Jean that died on the moon was the real Jean, just as much as the Jean who came out of the cocoon was. So I'll go with option 3.

[Christopher O]

You forgot the later clarification retcons that stated that Jean is the Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean. And that the Cocoon was actually the same thing as the Phoenix Egg. That the Jean that died on the moon was the real Jean, just as much as the Jean who came out of the cocoon was. So I'll go with option 3.
I agree that Morrison's "egg" development certainly gave an out to the awful "cocoon" business, but as much as I love the character, she should've died on the moon, and that should have been the end. No Maddie. No Rachel. No Nathan Christopher. No Nate Grey. Nothing. Zip. Period. Over. Of course, that isn't what happened, so no point in dwelling...

[caney]

I guess I would go with the first choice. I like the idea that Jean and the Phoenix are one and the same with the Phoenix being just an extension of Jean's powers. I know that view of it may be hard to incorporate with all the Phoenix stuff that happens during the times when Jean is "dead", but I like the idea that as long as the Phoenix force is alive, part of Jean is alive as well. Her physical body might be dead but she survives as the Phoenix.

[Beast]

I guess I would go with the first choice. I like the idea that Jean and the Phoenix are one and the same with the Phoenix being just an extension of Jean's powers. I know that view of it may be hard to incorporate with all the Phoenix stuff that happens during the times when Jean is "dead", but I like the idea that as long as the Phoenix force is alive, part of Jean is alive as well. Her physical body might be dead but she survives as the Phoenix.
Not really. Slung did a really good job of incorperating all the confusing canon together. :)

[Alan2099]

I'd ahve to go with the cocoon. I'm not a big fan of Jean having always been Phoenix, it overshadows her character too much.

[Omega Alpha]

I agree that Morrison's "egg" development certainly gave an out to the awful "cocoon" business, but as much as I love the character, she should've died on the moon, and that should have been the end. No Maddie. No Rachel. No Nathan Christopher. No Nate Grey. Nothing. Zip. Period. Over. Of course, that isn't what happened, so no point in dwelling...

I agree. She dying in the end of DPS was one of the best editorial decisions in the history of Marvel, Claremont's original idea was weak. She should have never returned.

[Frodo-X]

I said option 1.

Jean killed herself nobly, and should have been allowed to rest in peace.

Cocoon should only apply to butterflies and a movie full of old people.

[Beast]

I said option 1.

Jean killed herself nobly, and should have been allowed to rest in peace.

Cocoon should only apply to butterflies and a movie full of old people.
Word. Cocoon like a mofo! :D

[Valmore]

One of the most meaningful deaths in comics ruined.

#1 for teh win.

[HellFrost]

I'd ahve to go with the cocoon. I'm not a big fan of Jean having always been Phoenix, it overshadows her character too much.
To tell the truth I'm not too thrilled about that either. But I still prefer her dying on the moon. The Cocoon(just realised i spelled it wrong... Oh well.) was completely stupid and transformed this meaningful death(as Valmore put it) and crapped all over it.

[xakko]

let's see...

was the Dark Phoenix Saga one of the greatest stories in X-men history? certainly. was Jean's death scene one of the most powerful ever in comics? quite.

but did they bring back Jean anyway? yes. and i'm glad they did. and i enjoyed the stories that came after her return nearly as much as those seminal works leading up to her death. I believe the X-Universe is better for her return.

so the cocoon for me.

[Beast]

To tell the truth I'm not too thrilled about that either. But I still prefer her dying on the moon. The Cocoon(just realised i spelled it wrong... Oh well.) was completely stupid and transformed this meaningful death(as Valmore put it) and crapped all over it.
Just cause they brought Jean back, doesn't take away from the meaningful death. It's the same with Colossus. Just because he was brought back by Ord after sacrificing his life, doesn't mean that the sacrifice was undone.

[phoenixV]

I never liked the Cocoon Jean retcon. While I understand why it needed to be done, it takes away from the Dark Phoenix Saga - to think that Phoenix is not Jean, but some impersonator, makes a mockery of the finest X-Men story.

[HellFrost]

Just cause they brought Jean back, doesn't take away from the meaningful death. It's the same with Colossus. Just because he was brought back by Ord after sacrificing his life, doesn't mean that the sacrifice was undone.
I agree but I thought the Colossus thing was done beautifully. I got all excited and emotional for his character and Kitty. But the explanation behind Jean's story kind of made it fruitless. We didn't read Jean during any of those great moments before she died? eh.....

[Beast]

I agree but I thought the Colossus thing was done beautifully. I got all excited and emotional for his character and Kitty. But the explanation behind Jean's story kind of made it fruitless. We didn't read Jean during any of those great moments before she died? eh.....
But that's been clarified that it was Jean, now that Jim Shooter isn't the head of Marvel.

[DDM]

Jean Grey's selfless sarcifice as Dark Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #137 is just a timeless tragedy for one of the original X-Men. However, Jean Grey's resurrection in Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286 only works when she is Marvel Girl--not Phoenix. When Marvel made Jean Grey become Phoenix again in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4 then the gradual return of Jean's Phoenix Effect just muddies the water about the Phoenix character.

Rachel Summers should be the one & only Phoenix. Jean Grey should be Marvel Girl.

[Daithi]

Rachel Summers should be the one & only Phoenix. Jean Grey should be Marvel Girl.

Lets see.

Jean Grey. Dead. Husband with Emma Frost. Name is used to sell books featuring the Stepford Cuckoos and Emma Frost.

Rachel Summers. Alive. Currently a main character in Uncanny X-Men and getting a lot of exposure.

See how well the bird worked out for Jean? Leave Rachel out of this. She doesn't need to be saddled with the albatross.

[jsg2295]

You forgot the later clarification retcons that stated that Jean is the Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean. And that the Cocoon was actually the same thing as the Phoenix Egg. That the Jean that died on the moon was the real Jean, just as much as the Jean who came out of the cocoon was. So I'll go with option 3.
My brain just exploded...and I read those issues.

[Beast]

My brain just exploded...and I read those issues.
Heh. But it is a much better thing to merge the two retcons into one that makes more sense. :)

[Psylocked]

Well...


Jean:Sexy
Cyclops:Alive
Emma:Alive w/t Cyclops
Jean:Dead
Rachel:Who cares


WHY?!

[Beyond The Beyonder]

Do we really need to know for sure?

Maybe it's a matter of perspective.

This is kinda like the arguments over whether Jesus was really the Son of God born of a virgin and all that, or just a human who achieved divine potential.

People quote "Jean is the Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean" just as vehemently as some Christians who say "the Bible says He that has seen me has seen the Father'."

X-Fans and continuity are like fundamentalists and dogmas. And it's not all that surprising. If superheroes are our modern mythology, and archetypes like the Phoenix serve to point us toward our own heroic potential, like Stan Lee always said, then it kinda makes sense that people get up in arms about superhero stories, just like they do religious stories.

But what does it matter what somebody else believes? Maybe one person's more inspired by the story of the Phoenix Force which transcends a human form like Jean, and another person's more inspired by the story of Jean Grey who is absolutely one with that cosmic life force, and maybe they're both completely valid perspectives.

I do feel like continuity is tremendously important, and yet sometimes there's room for mystery. Sometimes there's room for more than one viewpoint.

[carabas]

I voted that she dies on the moon.

I don't mind at all that she came back to life, it's what phoenixes do, after all.
I just really, really hated that the retcon made it so that the best Jean Grey stories ever probably don't even actually feature Jean Grey.

[xakko]

Do we really need to know for sure?

Maybe it's a matter of perspective.
well, here's the problem- there are several stories that directly contradict the Phoenix is Jean and Jean is Phoenix- specifically the Alan Davis Excalibur run, where we see Feron, Merlyn and Necrom encountering the entity. Not to mention the discussion between Phoenix and Galactus.

Maybe it's just semantics- that Jean's mutation had the capacity to channel this force of the universe, even as Illyana's mutation just happened to work with a specific dimension called "Limbo". But it does put a negative point against the "Phoenix is Jean" phrase, as Phoenix has existed in multiple incarnations without Jean being involved.

[Beast]

well, here's the problem- there are several stories that directly contradict the Phoenix is Jean and Jean is Phoenix- specifically the Alan Davis Excalibur run, where we see Feron, Merlyn and Necrom encountering the entity. Not to mention the discussion between Phoenix and Galactus.

Maybe it's just semantics- that Jean's mutation had the capacity to channel this force of the universe, even as Illyana's mutation just happened to work with a specific dimension called "Limbo". But it does put a negative point against the "Phoenix is Jean" phrase, as Phoenix has existed in multiple incarnations without Jean being involved.
Yeah, but those can be explained with what happened to Jean/Phoenix in Phoenix: Endsong. The Shi'ar tried to bring Phoenix back early in an attempt to destory it. All they managed to do is shatter it, scattering shards/fragments/embers of Jean/Phoenix throught space and time via the White Hot Room. Those shards/fragments/embers were what Feron, Merlyn, and Necrom encountered and/or were empowered by. That's why Jean returns there at the end of Phoenix Endsong to recover her pieces. It also explains why Jean manifested the White/Gold costume and the Phoenix Raptor as a child before the event on the Shuttle.

[Mikl C]

#1. To keep the emotional impact of that story.
I'd also rather Phoenix be cosmic entity. :)

[xakko]

Yeah, but those can be explained with what happened to Jean/Phoenix in Phoenix: Endsong. The Shi'ar tried to bring Phoenix back early in an attempt to destory it. All they managed to do is shatter it, scattering shards/fragments/embers of Jean/Phoenix throught space and time via the White Hot Room. Those shards/fragments/embers were what Feron, Merlyn, and Necrom encountered and/or were empowered by. That's why Jean returns there at the end of Phoenix Endsong to recover her pieces. It also explains why Jean manifested the White/Gold costume and the Phoenix Raptor as a child before the event on the Shuttle.
gah, do we really have to accept Endsong?

really, though, the embodiment of all life in the universe is a Celestial-created DNA manipulation that was projected back into the past? that's a bit much, don't you think?

[Beast]

gah, do we really have to accept Endsong?

really, though, the embodiment of all life in the universe is a Celestial-created DNA manipulation that was projected back into the past? that's a bit much, don't you think?
The White Hot Room does intersect all time and space. So not really. :D

[xakko]

The White Hot Room does intersect all time and space. So not really. :D
a white hot room that required a human to create it?

Phoenix has been often described as a cosmic entity, similar to Death or Eternity. are we going to have those be humans too?

[Michael Sean]

Jean Grey's selfless sarcifice as Dark Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #137 is just a timeless tragedy for one of the original X-Men. However, Jean Grey's resurrection in Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286 only works when she is Marvel Girl--not Phoenix. When Marvel made Jean Grey become Phoenix again in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4 then the gradual return of Jean's Phoenix Effect just muddies the water about the Phoenix character.

Rachel Summers should be the one & only Phoenix. Jean Grey should be Marvel Girl.

Well I think Jean Grey should be the one and only Phoenix.

And I think the retcon can still work with Jean as Phoenix. Claremont addressed the retcon elements (the force, cocoon, and idea that she was replaced) in his Classic X-Men backstories (8,42,43) and stated and shown that Jean Grey was still the Phoenix and had been the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character from Uncanny 100-137.

Jean Grey became one with this force of the universe which was partly shaped and derived from her and was apart of her consciousness as a child. She formed a new body for herself and put the old body into a cocoon with a spark of her soul left just in case things went wrong. After dying on the moon she meets Death in the afterlife/white hot room as a White Phoenix. She is told that she comes from the Phoenix (her spirit is carved from it) and that the Phoenix comes from her (her imagination and perception). When she returns to life she is split among the cocoon body and the Maddie clone and she doesn't remember what she learned.

Grant Morrison also did this in his New X-Men run (114-137). Jean is not literally replaced by the Phoenix but is naturally consumed by her Phoenix Consciousness when she gets too close. Jean Grey herself is a type of Phoenix, a White Phoenix of the Crown and its a part of her genetic mutation. She dies to return, goes to the White Hot Room to do surgery on the universe, and can return through a Phoenix Egg.

Claremont streamlined the Phoenix mythos so well in his Classic X-Men backstories. Too bad the editors and Alan Davis in excalibur ignored them and made such a mess of things.

Grant Morrison also streamlined the Phoenix mythos so well. Too bad Pak and Brubaker are making a mess out of things again.

Oh well. There will always be abstract and mysterious aspects of the Phoenix. And it looks like they will be continually going back and forth on whether Jean was or was not Dark Phoenix and whether Jean Grey is the Phoenix force itself or not.

[Babylon23]

I think things would have been so much simpler had Jean just remained dead on the moon. DPS is the best X-Men story ever produced, due in part to it's emotional ending. I'd have preferred for this to be it for Jean. I had no problem with Rachel becoming the new Phoenix.

By removing Jean from the original story, the cocoon theory detracts from the emotion of the ending.

Morrison's idea makes the most out of the contradictory Phoenix stories that followed Jean's death, most of which wouldn't have been a problem if Jean had stayed dead, or never returned to being Phoenix. It's a complicated theory, but it does clean things up a little.

[Kal]

Yeah, but those can be explained with what happened to Jean/Phoenix in Phoenix: Endsong. The Shi'ar tried to bring Phoenix back early in an attempt to destory it. All they managed to do is shatter it, scattering shards/fragments/embers of Jean/Phoenix throught space and time via the White Hot Room. Those shards/fragments/embers were what Feron, Merlyn, and Necrom encountered and/or were empowered by. That's why Jean returns there at the end of Phoenix Endsong to recover her pieces. It also explains why Jean manifested the White/Gold costume and the Phoenix Raptor as a child before the event on the Shuttle.

So Jean = Phoenix = Rachel = The Stepford Cuckoos???

If Jean = Phoenix then Jean is the Phoenix talking to the Cuckoos in Phoenix Warsong is Jean?

Very confusing.

[HellFrost]

So Jean = Phoenix = Rachel = The Stepford Cuckoos???

If Jean = Phoenix then Jean is the Phoenix talking to the Cuckoos in Phoenix Warsong is Jean?

Very confusing.
Please.......... let's not even mention them....... They are officially ruined for me...........:evilangry

[Michael Sean]

So Jean = Phoenix = Rachel = The Stepford Cuckoos???

If Jean = Phoenix then Jean is the Phoenix talking to the Cuckoos in Phoenix Warsong is Jean?

Very confusing.


I think the Phoenix fragment in Warsong is Jean Grey. First they refer to her as a "she" and then there was the hint of her hatching soon and they showed Jean Grey's tombstone.

Also Pak said that the Phoenix that came to the cuckoos may be the destructive power of Dark Phoenix or the incredible love of Jean Grey.

I think its Jean because its pretty obvious that the dark thing in the cuckoos is Sublime/Weapon Plus programming.

They said explicitly in Phoenix Endsong that Jean was the Phoenix and the Phoenix was Jean, they are pieces of a whole, and that Jean is always Phoenix.

Of course Morrison had shown Jean to be a type of Phoenix herself. People like Jean are Phoenixes and they make up the Phoenix Consciousness from the White Hot Room.

Though Warsong and Brubakers current Uncanny storyline may mess with what was said in Endsong (or maybe it won't mess with it).

About Rachel (next week's Uncanny spoilers), In next week's Uncanny X-Men Rachel gains a portion of the Phoenix force, the "smallest fraction of the Phoenix force". Why they felt the need to do this is beyond me. Rachel was already manifesting the Phoenix symbol over her eye, had been branded with a Phoenix tatoo on her back, and sometimes manifested the symbol. Since Jean Grey is her mother and Jean Grey is a Phoenix by genetic mutation and is among a special type of Phoenix (a White Phoenix of the Crown), then Rachel is basically a Phoenix too. They have already said that she is in the line (bloodline) of the Phoenix because of Jean. She's already been portrayed as a seconday phoenix of sorts as this new Marvel Girl. Jean is obviously the primary Phoenix character now. Though the cuckoos have a piece of the Phoenix now too.

I don't really see the need of returning to the idea of the Phoenix as a body hopping force since Morrison established people like Jean as being natural Phoenixes themselves and being connected to a higher Consciousness to which they themselves are apart of.

If people didn't like Pak allowing the Phoenix to possess anything as a shell (like a firefly or Emma) or omega psychics weilding it as hosts or Jean Grey and the Phoenix being One and literally being pieces of each other....

Then I wonder what they think of Brubaker showing that inanimate objects like a sword (Blade of the Phoenix) can house the Phoenix force?

I also liked it better when Claremont had Rachel talking about Jean being Phoenix and being the Phoenix made flesh than Brubaker having Rachel talking about the Phoenix as a force that "likes" her.

[Beyond The Beyonder]

I feel like any number of interpretations is valid. If I had to give my take on it, it's that Jean is one with the force of all life. We could say that the Phoenix manifested AS her, or that it manifested IN her, or that SHE manifested IT, but ultimately the point is that she embodies it fully. The Phoenix IS Jean, but it transcends Jean. And on the same token, Jean IS the Phoenix but it's not her only identity either, so in effect SHE transcends IT too.

[Beast]

So Jean = Phoenix = Rachel = The Stepford Cuckoos???

If Jean = Phoenix then Jean is the Phoenix talking to the Cuckoos in Phoenix Warsong is Jean?

Very confusing.
It's a fractured ember of Jean, not Jean herself.

[YummiYami]

Jean grey died on the moon, like it proves on the saga IT WAS SOOOOOOO important for her to die human, and jean grey is not just some x-men that comes and goes shes always gonna be honored and loved espically in the endsong it shows how much they love her. So thats why it like a insult for her to be die in a cacoon, jean grey just didnt die and say yay she died beacause she knew she wanted to help her friends.

[xgeek52]

*sighs*

she was dead then and she's dead now...

the jean/phoenix thing will be marvel's way of bringing her back again and again...trauma and drama...

[jarrod]

I think the Phoenix fragment in Warsong is Jean Grey. First they refer to her as a "she" and then there was the hint of her hatching soon and they showed Jean Grey's tombstone.

Also Pak said that the Phoenix that came to the cuckoos may be the destructive power of Dark Phoenix or the incredible love of Jean Grey.

I think its Jean because its pretty obvious that the dark thing in the cuckoos is Sublime/Weapon Plus programming.

They said explicitly in Phoenix Endsong that Jean was the Phoenix and the Phoenix was Jean, they are pieces of a whole, and that Jean is always Phoenix.

Of course Morrison had shown Jean to be a type of Phoenix herself. People like Jean are Phoenixes and they make up the Phoenix Consciousness from the White Hot Room.

Though Warsong and Brubakers current Uncanny storyline may mess with what was said in Endsong (or maybe it won't mess with it).

About Rachel (next week's Uncanny spoilers), In next week's Uncanny X-Men Rachel gains a portion of the Phoenix force, the "smallest fraction of the Phoenix force". Why they felt the need to do this is beyond me. Rachel was already manifesting the Phoenix symbol over her eye, had been branded with a Phoenix tatoo on her back, and sometimes manifested the symbol. Since Jean Grey is her mother and Jean Grey is a Phoenix by genetic mutation and is among a special type of Phoenix (a White Phoenix of the Crown), then Rachel is basically a Phoenix too. They have already said that she is in the line (bloodline) of the Phoenix because of Jean. She's already been portrayed as a seconday phoenix of sorts as this new Marvel Girl. Jean is obviously the primary Phoenix character now. Though the cuckoos have a piece of the Phoenix now too.

I don't really see the need of returning to the idea of the Phoenix as a body hopping force since Morrison established people like Jean as being natural Phoenixes themselves and being connected to a higher Consciousness to which they themselves are apart of.

If people didn't like Pak allowing the Phoenix to possess anything as a shell (like a firefly or Emma) or omega psychics weilding it as hosts or Jean Grey and the Phoenix being One and literally being pieces of each other....

Then I wonder what they think of Brubaker showing that inanimate objects like a sword (Blade of the Phoenix) can house the Phoenix force?

I also liked it better when Claremont had Rachel talking about Jean being Phoenix and being the Phoenix made flesh than Brubaker having Rachel talking about the Phoenix as a force that "likes" her.


I think we're meant to be.

[Arrjay]

Bitch died on the moon.

'Nuff said.