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View Full Version : Kingdom Come: Did Marvel REALLY beat Supes?



Kid Quick Foots
10-06-2006, 06:26 PM
ok, i thought that Cap handed the big boy scout his booty at the end of Kingdom Come, but ive heard another argument that Cap really didnt do anything to Supes but slow him down, mearly get in his way so that the big bomb could drop, and that when Supes puts his hand over Caps mouth before he says "SHAZAM!!!" for the last time that he could have crushed his skull but he wanted Cap to make the decision on his own to save the planet and to fight Luthors conditioning, is this true? or did Cap really take it to Supes?...... AND(one more thing:) ) Capt. Marvel isnt invunerable?? what? since when?

Ontir
10-06-2006, 06:28 PM
Cap's powers are derived from magic, and so he is, and always has been, more powerful than Superman.

Eliseu Gouveia
10-06-2006, 06:29 PM
I usually just consider it a stalemate.

Rik Levins
10-06-2006, 06:39 PM
Well, Cap didn't win, but he was certainly hurting Supes.

What Marvel did was to say his magic word, and then zip out of the path of the magical lightning bolt at super-speed, leaving it to hit Superman instead. And since it was magical lightning, it could hurt Supes a lot more than regular electricity (which wouldn't even tickle him).

The first bolt staggered Supes, but he was still on his feet. Cap then repeated the tactic several times, at which point Superman was barely able to stand and was bleeding from his nose and ears.

But then he tried it once too often, allowing Superman to reverse the tactic and avoid the bolt...I forget whether he pushed Cap into its path or what exactly, but anyway Marvel ended up getting hit, which of course changed him back into Bill Batson, his human alter-ego. Before he could say "Shazam" again and change back, Superman grabbed his face and held his mouth shut. Since Batson has no super-powers, yes, Superman could effortlessly have crushed his head at that point. But he chose to talk to him instead, and persuaded Cap to do the right thing after Superman let him go.

I might point out that, in my opinion, if Marvel had not tried the lightning trick one time too many, and had instead just switched to using his fists at that point, he probably could have beaten the snot out of the badly-injured Superman.

Kid Quick Foots
10-06-2006, 06:43 PM
yeah, i just took a glance at the TPB and as Cap is saying shazam for the last time, supes uses his speed and grabs Cap by the mouth as soon as he says it, so the bolt actually hits Supes and Cap at the same time, turning Cap back into Billy, i thought Supes had his hand on is mouth BEFORE he turned back into Billy. so yeah, he could crush his face easily at that point.

CaptainAwesome
10-06-2006, 07:23 PM
I think Cap could have easily won the actual fight, but Supes had won, at least philosophically, before the fight had even begun.

Michael P
10-06-2006, 07:24 PM
Cap beat that farmboy like he stole somethin'.

Lord of Denial
10-06-2006, 07:28 PM
Cap beat that farmboy like he stole somethin'.


The end result of a fight is all that matters. And the end result of this one is Superman could have crushed Billy's skull but he chose not too. So I call that a stalemate by Clarks choice.

davids
10-06-2006, 08:41 PM
The next best tiff in that story was wonderwoman trying to shove her sword in Batman's chest!:evilsmile

PS anyone ever tried listening to the audio drama while following along with the graphic novel.....cool!

shyguy
10-07-2006, 10:57 AM
It was basically a draw (Luthor didn't expect Captain Marvel to beat Superman, he just needed him to keep Supes busy while the bomb did its work), but Captain Marvel gets the moral victory since his death and Norman McCay's influence are what make Superman finally see what the right course of action is in regard to the metahuman problems.

Eliseu Gouveia
10-07-2006, 02:33 PM
I don´t agree that CA got the moral victory since it was Superman who had to show him he was in the wrong side.

When your oponent defeats you and instead of killing you, chooses to spare yuor life and make you realise that you are wrong and you yourself decide that you want to sacrify yourself to make up for what you did, that isn´t a "moral victory".

That usually registers under "- Sorry for screwing up. Here, let me die in your place instead to make up for my mess".

Lord of Denial
10-08-2006, 05:43 AM
I don´t agree that CA got the moral victory since it was Superman who had to show him he was in the wrong side.

When your oponent defeats you and instead of killing you, chooses to spare yuor life and make you realise that you are wrong and you yourself decide that you want to sacrify yourself to make up for what you did, that isn´t a "moral victory".

That usually registers under "- Sorry for screwing up. Here, let me die in your place instead to make up for my mess".


But Superman was also wrong in thinking that he had to decide between superhuman life and human life. And Cap in the end made him see that the only thing that matters was life period be it superhuman or human. And that there is no difference between the two.

Eliseu Gouveia
10-08-2006, 07:10 AM
That was not an issue when the fight started.
Superman was in it to stop the bomb and the death of al those people, CM was there to stop him.

In the end, not only did SM make Billy understand the big picture, CM himself chose to side with him by sacrifying himself to help Superman.

Thatīs not a moral victory.
Thatīs a "You were right, I was wrong. To make up for my mistake I will sacrify my life so that your plan is enforced."

mattx110
10-08-2006, 07:48 PM
i think captian marvel was screwed up in the head enough to want to blow himself up. but i also think if he wasn't a mental mess he would have sacrificed himself to save the others anyway. as it stands, superman won the fight by being smart, while billy was obviously under a lot of stress and probably couldn't think very straight. wether or not he would have realized how vulnerable the lightning trick made him is up to conjecture. but a sane batson wouldn't have fought supes anyway, so that would just be a rumble forum problem to deal with. we don't have to think about who could have won, but that in the end supes stopped billy, and marvel saved lives.

The Joker
10-08-2006, 08:38 PM
Cap would beat Supes.

Just ask Alex Ross. I'm sure he would say the same thing. :)

marshal99
10-08-2006, 09:04 PM
Cap would beat Supes.

Just ask Alex Ross. I'm sure he would say the same thing. :)

Morrison will tell you as well , after all , under him , Marvel can just KO superman with 2 magical punches. ;)

Kid Quick Foots
10-08-2006, 09:04 PM
Cap would beat Supes.

Just ask Alex Ross. I'm sure he would say the same thing. :)


LMAO, indeed.

PatrickG
10-09-2006, 12:23 AM
Did you guys read the novel?

Superman wasn't vulnerable to magic after the first bolt because he finally understood it. He realized that the decision had to be Billy's though.

Also... Regarding the magic vulnerability, here's my take:

A fight between Cap and Superman could ALWAYS go either way. There never should be a definitive advantage to one side.

As DC has often said over the past 20 years, Superman isn't vulnerable to magic the way he is to Kryptonite. You couldn't bruise him with a magic rock unless that magic rock was enchanted to hit with the force of 40 megatons or was enchanted to "bruise anyone it hits" or something like that.

Cap is Superman's equal not implicitly because he is magic but because that magic makes him strong enough to hurt Superman, which is no more or less effective than someone whose muscles are strong enough to hurt Superman.

dancj
10-09-2006, 05:08 AM
Cap's powers are derived from magic, and so he is, and always has been, more powerful than Superman.

Here we go again....:rolleyes:

Superman is not particularly vulnerable to anything which derives from magic. He just has no particular defense against direct magic.

This means that if you cast a spell to turn him into a teapot, he's as vulnerable as anyone else (as is any other hero who doesn't have a particular defense against magic - which is most of them).

If, however you use magic to grant someone strength, then Superman is as invulnerable to that person's strength as he is to anyone else who's that strong. As I understand it, Marvel and Supes are at pretty similar strengths and speeds so they'd be fairly evenly matched

Dan

Rik Levins
10-09-2006, 06:06 AM
...as it stands, superman won the fight by being smart, while billy was obviously under a lot of stress and probably couldn't think very straight....

Well, stress and that whole brain-eating-worms-in-his-head thing...

Ekko
10-09-2006, 08:07 AM
Maybe I'll need to break out the book again to be sure, but I think Superman was still trying to reason with CM when he called for that first lightning bolt that struck Supes (which despite being a supermanfan, I thought that was a creative use of his powers Billy displayed). Otherwise, due to how powerful Supeman had became, it probably wouldn't have been much of a fight.

Black Atom
10-09-2006, 09:16 AM
No, he didn't. Aside from the fact that the fight ended with Superman in the position to tear Batson's head off his shoulders AND attaining the moral victory, I don't know how anyone can come to the conclusion that CM "beat" Superman. Besides, Clark had already decided the whole thing had gone awry when Marvel blind-sided him. His heart wasn't even in the fight.

Lord of Denial
10-09-2006, 02:27 PM
No, he didn't. Aside from the fact that the fight ended with Superman in the position to tear Batson's head off his shoulders AND attaining the moral victory, I don't know how anyone can come to the conclusion that CM "beat" Superman. Besides, Clark had already decided the whole thing had gone awry when Marvel blind-sided him. His heart wasn't even in the fight.


Yep

Really Marvel spend the whole throwdown fighting bloodlusted and Superman spent it trying to reason with Billy. Only one of them was going all out and fighting with all his power and in the end Superman had his hand around a human Billy Bastons mouth and could have ended his life.

shyguy
10-09-2006, 05:56 PM
Actually, Captain Marvel doesn't look like he's fighting very hard at all, either.

He shows up to the thing smiling and keeps his grin on his face the whole time. The fight is really them sparring more than anything. Superman is just using force to get Captain Marvel to listen to him and Cap is only using it to distract him and when he gets irked at what Superman is telling him.

Really, neither of them were going at it really hard. Cap only does the lightning thing when Superman's words get to him; it's a sign of frustration. Notice how he immediately goes back to smiling once the lightning first hits Superman.

Superman doesn't want to fight Cap and Cap knows that his job is to distract Superman, not necessarily escalate a full-on fight (which could have been over so quickly that, had he won, Superman would have had time to throw the bomb into space or whatever).

Zanku
10-09-2006, 06:28 PM
he waded through his magic lightning pretty well, so if he wanted to beat billy, he most likely could have

mattx110
10-09-2006, 07:32 PM
Well, stress and that whole brain-eating-worms-in-his-head thing...
yea... those sivana worms from star trek 2:the wrath of khan

Alan2099
10-09-2006, 09:24 PM
From what I saw, it looked like Superman should be given the win, but he took a lot worse of a beating than Captain Marvel did.

dupersuper
10-10-2006, 05:57 AM
I love Cap, but COME ON. It's freakin' Superman.

Captain_Marvel
10-22-2006, 04:06 PM
I think a lot of folks believe that my DC Counterpart is not invulnerable stems from his death in this series. However, if you read it carefully, you will find it to not be true. Yes, he did perish from the atomic bomb, and Superman didn't. But, when he went up to meet the bomb in the air, he yelled out "Shazam" three times, the first of which would have changed him from CM to BB, the second back to CM, and the third back to BB. As a mortal, he would have absolutely no chance of surviving the bomb. However, I don't think he really wanted to, seeing how his life had turned out.