How could Batman remain a Urban Legend but be in the JLA?

[Nintendite]

Okay, back during Batman's "urban legend" era, which extended from about Zero Hour to the "War Games" storyline.

Something I never figured out was...


How the HELL could people consider him a Urban Legend when he was a member of various incarnations of the Justice League, a rather Public (compared to Batman himself) team that would occasionally appear in BROAD daylight?!?!


I know, it's just a comic, but It always kinda bugged me.

[Kid Quick Foots]

i know what you mean, i myself like the "urban legend" aspect, but its kinda hard to pull that off when he drives around town in a big bat shaped car, and the frickin police throw up a big ass bat symbole everytime there's trouble. you'd have to be one of the dumbest crooks going if you didnt know that batman was real and not just a "myth" or something at this point.

[colossus34]

I thought the whole "urban legend" angle was interesting in that it feeds into what Nolan and company established in Begins that Batman is more than just a man he's an idea a symbol.

I don't think having people doubt his existence was smart but having people doubt he was a real person or something maybe law enforcement had cooked up or maybe something more(supernautral etc) works well into the idea that criminals are a supersiticious lot. Even if someone called "batman" was on the JLA it didn't deter criminials into thinking he was someone else or deter their fears.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

To me, the perfect solution would've been if they just told us Batman was only an urban legend pre-Dick Grayson but to this day, crooks aren't sure WHAT he is (supernatural being, human bat, metahuman, etc).

[Gargus]

Hey its DC you cant be literall with them, just go with the flow. Not much else I can say than that really.

[glennsim]

It was never explained. The Bat-Editors didn't really care what was going on in JLA.

Not to mention the fact that Tim Drake's origin depends on him seeing Batman and Robin on TV.

[KYTouchMassage]

Not to mention the fact that Tim Drake's origin depends on him seeing Batman and Robin on TV.

Hahaha. That's so true.

"Only three people in the WORLD can do a quadruple somersault."

Like no one else figured it out. I'm sure Deathstroke was all over that.

[captain_unimpressive]

Someone mentioned the old line that "criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot", which made me think of a Frank Miller interview from the 80's I read recently.
He said that the aforementioned line should be thrown out the window when it comes to Batman; meaning that if he's really the World's Greatest Detective, who in his physical prime could split a tree with a kick, then the criminals should at last have an IQ in the double digits.

Not that seeing Batman run overconfident little punks through the wringer and dangle them off skyscrapers has ever gotten old.

[Kid Kyoto]

we covered this a few weeks ago and in the real world there are things just as silly. There are people who beleive a plane never hit the pentagon, that the holocaust never happened, that the world is run by jews etc etc

And then there are people who believe in UFOs, witches, vampires and the loch ness monster. People even believe that crop circles are alien messages even after the guys who started the prank admitted it was hoax.

So in the DCU no matter what people see on the tv or in the papers I can still see some guys in a bar arguing is there is a batman, if he's human or monster or if he's just a GCPD hoax.

[Kid Kyoto]

Come to think of it, didn't someone admit the famous blurry picture of nessy was a hoax too? It still shows up on TV as a 'real mystery'.

[dreyga2000]

JLa has a binuch of super people it could have fed the myth of him being some super baat demon who bullets pass through

[karaokefanboy]

I like the way Alan Davis took on this subject in JLA: The Nail. We see a picture of Batman but its very blurred, implying that Batman is always in motion when the JLA fights a baddie, then at the end of the first issue when he "kills" the Joker, his face is in shadow, his eyes these white slits full of rage. It would be easy to think that maybe he's a demon or a ghost or some supernatural thing. After all, the JLA has a martian in their ranks. Why not some demon, too?

[Ruthless_Pryde]

In the Grant morrison JLA, Bats was NEVER in front of a camera. When nightwing Ran the team during the Obsidain Age storyline, HE was never in front of a camera either, the Atom did all of the talking in public. Go back and read the first 50 issues of JLA and you will see that when the League is in front of a camera, Batman isn't. When they had a press confrence on the moonbase and Prometheus was introduced, Batman was on monitor duty away from the public. When they fought the ultra Marines in front of the US Army, Batman , the Huntress and Plastic man were breaking into the base to dig up some dirt on the ultra Marines where they found the General/ shaggyman. And the list goes on and on, Green Arrow said dunring the Obsidan age, when the New JLA was doing their introductory press confrence, one of the New member asked where their silver tongued leader [Nightwing] was at and why he wasn't doing the talking. Green Arrow said," Lights boy, you'l never catch the Bat and his kind at one of these things." Again, no cameras. And when alot of the crazy stuff happens in public, Bat's is off somewhere else doing some behind the scenes stuff. He goes out of his way to avoid the camera's

Until they decided to throw away the urban Myth thing, in Wargames, the new mythos was based on him being an urban legend.

Now I didn't read the old JLA series, but I know in the new one, Morrison went from the idea that he was an urban Legend.

[dancj]

In the Grant morrison JLA, Bats was NEVER in front of a camera.

Exactly. I've never worked out why so many people thing being in the JLA stops Bats from being an urban legend. I always liked the idea. It's not that realistic, but I'm sure we're all used to a bit of suspension of disbelief by now

[Agentum]

stupid retcons i guess.
He was on TV in JL books of the 80s and he must have been spotted with the other heroes standing around even if it was not on TV.

I wish he could be his own man that maybe worked with a few other heroes now an then.
I'm not much for a whole family of Batman based characters that is swinging around.

I don't get why it would be hard to believ that a man dressed as a bat is out and catching bad boys, when you have superheroes flying around in underwear and capes.

And what would the batsignal be used for if there was no Batman?
Maybe to scare criminals or something i don't know, realisticly its stupid, BUT this is comics so we has to swallow that as we do with so much other things.

I mean even if he is known to exist people wouldn't know that he is not superpowered or invincible or something.

[Ruthless_Pryde]

stupid retcons i guess.


And what would the bat signal be used for if there was no Batman?
Maybe to scare criminals or something i don't know, realistically its stupid, BUT this is comics so we has to swallow that as we do with so much other things.

I mean even if he is known to exist people wouldn't know that he is not super powered or invincible or something.

Three points here...
1. "And what would the bat signal be used for if there was no Batman?
Maybe to scare criminals or something i don't know, realistically its stupid, ..."

Not exactly. If you think about it fom this persepcetive. Here is Texas, the local police departments will leave police cars on the side of the road with their lights on. Now as a driver, what do you do when you see a police car......you slow down. You don't know if it is one car or a dozen cars in a speed trap and you could easily be next. But you do slow down. They do the same things for drunk drivers by having check points setup during holidays. Both approaches are simply psychological approaches to police work. That's the same principal that the signal works on: When you see it you act right. Is it for The joker, or is it for you? Do the cops know about the robbery that was being planned? Are they actually going to call The Bat-man for you? Being real, ( or using cbl, comic book logic) the signal is not going to work on the more hardcore thugs or Super-Villains, but low level street thugs and potential first time offenders, should be stopped if not slowed down. The same way the decoy police cars work on those that care somewhat, and the way the check points work to reduce drunk driving, there will always be those that don't care, or think that they won't get caught. Same with the signal. It will stop some, slow others and the rest will do continue on one way or anoher.

2. Batman works best as a symbol and not a man in a suit. A man in a suit can be removed; ideas and symbols stay a lot longer. I like reading some of the stories from Batman's early adventures b/c he is referred to as," The Bat-Man". I like that b/c they are not sure how to refer to him, as a person or as an entity. He is much scarier when they don't know what he is. I think a public persona diminishes that. Keep him the stuff of urban legends and urban myths. He makes a bigger impression that way. Is it a man or a team of men? Is it a bunch of rogue cops or some kind of off the books police squad? Is he real or isn't he. For that matter is it a man or a beast or worse, some kind of supernatural demon? Are the cops behind it? When you know that it is a man, just a man, behind it, and then those questions don't get asked as much as they should an even if they do the answers aren't as scary as they should be.
Him being a man cught o film would change that.

3."I mean even if he is known to exist people wouldn't know that he is not super powered or invincible or something."

kinda of repeating some of the previous points, when you know he is just a man in the costume, the edge is gone or at the very least diminished. He doesn't appear during the day, to keep the dark edge to him, he moves quickly and causes confusion before he strikes to keep the edge to him, he hangs people upside down from buildings, to keep the edge to him. He HAS to be bigger than any man could be, urban legends can do that most men can't. To keep the questions about him going, he needs that Urban legend approach. the more he is seen in public, the more he becomes common place, and the less he is feared. Think about it, if they had him on the news once a week, he just wouldn't have that same boom behind him. Don't get me wrong, he would still make a splash, but he would not have the same effect on people.

People would not know immediately that he had no powers, true. but after 2 or three years in the public and he hasn't lifted any cars over his head, ran real fast, flew, got a democarat eleceted in Texas, or had some other super power documented, then what? People start to see that he is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors; hat he is just a man in a suit and that they can take him down. not easily, but it can be done. He would be a REALLY big target.



IMHO

I like my Bats as an urban legend, no pics, no videos ever taken, just conjecture about him.

[Agentum]

Well i like it too, but they should have thought about that before they used him in JLA, but i always felt like it was one JLA Batman and one ordinary Batman.

And the criminals will have to think that Batman exist to be afraid of the batsignal, i think it's a bit longwinded if say it was used without a Batman character or nobody ever had seen him.

[Ruthless_Pryde]

You're right, you have to view it as th JLA Bats and his own book Bats.
I agree with you there.


And your second point, They believe in Bat-man but they don't always know who or what he is. I like that.

[dancj]

And your second point, They believe in Bat-man but they don't always know who or what he is. I like that.

Exactly. The general public outside of Gotham mostly didn't believe in him. The general public in Gotham probably had a good mix, but the criminals in Gotham believed and were scared of him.

[chilled monkey]

And then there are people who believe in witches



Sorry to go off-topic, but of course there are. Witchcraft is a religion. Witches are every bit as real as followers of any other faith.

[batturtle]

Yeah...good writers handle it well.
Like the aformentioned Grant Morrison handled Bat-stories.
But, every once in a while I read a comic where Batman is right front and centre in broad day light at a press conference or something. I hate that stuff.

It is a world though in which an angel and Martian and the King of Atlantis have been on the flagship super-hero team...so I don't know why a city wouldn't believe in a guy dressed as a bat fighting bad guys.

[heretic]

Okay, back during Batman's "urban legend" era, which extended from about Zero Hour to the "War Games" storyline.

Something I never figured out was...


How the HELL could people consider him a Urban Legend when he was a member of various incarnations of the Justice League, a rather Public (compared to Batman himself) team that would occasionally appear in BROAD daylight?!?!


I know, it's just a comic, but It always kinda bugged me.
I guess the main trick was that the general populace of the world in general and Gotham in particular was never certain what The Batman was. Being glimpsed running around alongside demigods certainly would not inhibit that effect.

It did not hurt that he opted out of the more public appearances and PR activities.

HTG

[Lorendiac]

I've read various claims about this "Urban Legend" thing, and even written about it in the past. Here's a summary of what I think I know, so that we can put things in historical perspective . As I understand it, there are three "phases" we need to worry about here -- Before "Zero Hour," After "Zero Hour," and After "War Games." :)

1. Before "Zero Hour"

Until the mid-90s, it was generally taken for granted in DC's comics (including the Batman titles) that the world knew that Batman really existed. They might be unclear on such details as whether or not he had superhuman strength or other powers, but they knew he was out there, they knew he was a member of the Justice League at times, they knew he often captured such dangerous criminals as Joker and Two-Face. Writers generally took it for granted that in the modern DCU, this was a well-documented fact; not just a popular rumor. Any cop, villain, or innocent bystander who met him face-to-face for the first time in a new story in the 1980s or early 90s would almost always recognize his costume at a glance from his media coverage and say, "Hello, Batman! Nice to meet you at last!" instead of scratching his head and muttering, "Who's this guy?"

As one example of Batman's well-known existence: As someone pointed out above, Tim Drake's origin story in 1989 rested upon the concept that he had figured out who the first Robin was after watching a TV news broadcast of a clip from a security camera videotape. Millions of other people must have seen that broadcast too (along with earlier and later broadcasts of film or still pictures of Batman doing his stuff).

2. After Zero Hour

Then came Zero Hour in 1994, and this provided a way to totally change the status quo in that regard. One version of the story goes like this: Aside from a few specific changes that had presumably been made at higher levels (such as rebooting the Legion of Super-Heroes from scratch, at a guess), the editors who were in charge of groups of monthly titles were told that they could use the Zero Hour event as a handy opportunity to make one big retcon per title. The story says that Denny O'Neil, being in charge of all the Batman titles during the 1990s, saw this as an opportunity to make several retcons all at once to Batman continuity. Those apparently included:

1. In the Post-Zero Hour continuity, the mystery of who really killed Bruce Wayne's parents was still up in the air, totally unresolved. One thing this did was to effectively grab hold of Mike Barr's previous "Year Two" storyline and toss it in the trashcan.

2. Post-Zero Hour, Batman had never had sex with Talia, the daughter of Ra's al Ghul, under any circumstances whatsoever. This effectively grabbed hold of Mike Barr's graphic novels from the late 80s, "Batman: Son of the Demon" and "Batman: Bride of the Demon" and tossed them in the trashcan as well. (Do we see a trend forming? :))

3. Around this time, O'Neil came up with another idea for a retcon: "Batman is only an Urban Legend. Although he has been operating as a superhero for ten years, no one has ever managed to capture a recognizable image of him on film, and no media organization or government agency has ever officially announced that it is certain that the 'Batman' really and truly exists in the first place!" This one effectively did a lot of damage to many previous Batman stories, probably including some by Mike Barr (along with stories by practically every other writer who had ever worked on the character's regular continuity in the past).

4. There is also a report that initially, O'Neil wanted to make the Urban Legend thing look a bit more plausible with another retcon to the effect that: "Batman is not a member of the Justice League. Batman was never a member of any past version of the Justice League. Batman never will be a member of any version of the Justice League if I have anything to say about it. Any old stories which show him giving interviews, and/or being photographed or captured by a TV camera as part of a group shot featuring the entire League membership, are dead wrong - he wasn't there in the first place! It's all being retconned!" The story goes that O'Neil briefly tried to make this one stick, but various people (probably including Grant Morrison when he was getting ready to write the early issues of a new JLA series in the mid-90s) finally managed to convince him to relax his rules on that particular post-Zero Hour retcon.

As Ruthless Pryde mentioned, for awhile in the JLA title that started in the mid-90s, originally written by Grant Morrison, the general idea seemed to be that Batman usually ducked out of sight when other members of the JLA were giving press conferences.

I don't know if all of the above is 100% accurate, but it seems plausible, based on what I've heard from various sources and what I've seen in the Batman comics I actually own from the mid-to-late 90s during the later part of O'Neil's editorial reign.

3. After "War Games"

In 2004, someone apparently decided it was about time to "officially end" the whole mixed-up, illogical, long-past-its-expiration date "Urban Legend Retcon" concept. (Which some writers had already been implicitly thumbing their noses at from time to time, if memory serves, if it would interfere with a scene they particularly wanted to write in a certain story.) Since O'Neil was long gone from his job as the chief Bat-editor by this time, his successors could overturn any of his old decisions if they felt like it.

So at one point in the "War Games" great big Bat-event, Batman is caught on film by a TV camera as he comes out of a burning building or something. This is described to us in the story as if it is "The Very First Absolutely Clear Publicly Known Videotaped Evidence In History That Batman Exists! Nobody Ever Did This Before!" (Ignoring about a zillion stories from before Zero Hour, of course, in which he had also been captured on film.)

So now DC has basically hit the big fat RESET button on the "Urban Legend" concept! For the last couple of years, Batman's condition in any new story has pretty much been exactly what it was for decades before the post-Zero Hour thing. The general public in the DCU knows for a fact that a "Batman" exists in Gotham City, but since he doesn't usually give in-depth interviews to the press, they don't know much more about him beyond that. And some of what they think they know is probably dead wrong, based on wild rumors and speculation.

[glennsim]

Theoretically, with the further history-changing effects of Infinite Crisis and New Earth, it's possible that Batman was never an Urban Legend in his current history.