View Full Version : Should Frontline even be in-continuity?
Magneto Rocks
10-04-2006, 11:28 AM
I have been reading over my issues of CW: Frontline, and I've come to a conclusion.
This title should NOT be considered Marvel canon.
Again and again and again I read something which is so blatantly biased that it's almost impossible it exists, something which contradicts OTHER, more reliable books, something which simply seems ridiculous in the extreme or else staggering OOC-ness. And frankly, I'm sick of it.
These are just SOME of the worst transgressions of the book... FROM THE LATEST ISSUE ALONE.
(CW4 spoilers):
-The Death of Goliath
Civil War #4: Thor blasts a hole through him
Frontline 6: Thor electrocutes him
-Nighthawk and SHIELD
Civil War #4- Nighthawk may or may not be in the battle, it is uncertain. The SHIELD forces do not engage until after the Clor attack.
Frontline #6: Nighthawk is there and engaged in a massive aerial duel with SHIELD forces in which he appears to blow up at least one copter.
-The arrival of Thor
Civil War #3: A battered Cap is being beaten by Iron Man, without his shield. Hercules races to save him and is struck by a bolt of lightning- Thor is there!
Frontline #6 Nighthawk (!!!) is the first person attacked- electrocuted by Thor. (Ironically, this happens to NO-ONE in the main title) Thor then knocks over Cap. A totally intact Cap, with his shield.
-The Super-villain forces
Civil War #4They are an absoloutely last-minute force used only when there is no other way, first deployed approximately a week after the battle at Geffen Meyer and under watch by super-heroes.
Frontline 4/5/6: They are allowed to roam alone without any watch-over days before the battle at Geffen Meyer.
-Negative Zone Prison
Amazing Spider-Man #535, Mark Millar and Tom Brevoort: The Negative Zone Prison is extremely clean, well policed and high tech. It holds 20 or so big name meta-humans, and not THAT many people... yet.
Frontline #6: It holds HUNDREDS of meta-humans. The cells are tiyn, cramped and dirty with no toilets, and people being taken in are strapped down. Rather than having their powers restricted in ANY way, they appear to be able to commit suicide with their own powers... without being stopped.
-Ben Urich:
Most of Marvel History: Ben Urich is a great, likeable reporter.
Frontline 6: Urich is a Fox News style "reporter" who apparantly feels that shouting out random questions about national security and not getting an answer is absoloute proof that he is right.
That was just for starters. I mean, one that leapt out at me from another issue was-
-Mr Fantastic
Most of Marvel History: Reed is one of the most intelligent men, if not THE most intelligent man, in the world.
Frontline: Reed can get pwned by Ben Urich.
Overall, there are a simply ASTONISHING amount of contradictions and inaccuracies across Frontline. Not only that, but it is written with sheer, untempered bias like no other Civil War book.
I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY possibility is that it takes place in some hideous alternative reality where we need metaphors absoloutely crammed down our throats until we gag, and most of the world's best super-humans have been replaced with fascists, moreso than ANY other CW book.
I was just wondering- am I the only person who feels this way, or does no-one else agree that this series seems to be taking Civil War and ripping it apart?
Is this even part of continuity anymore?
More importantly- SHOULD it be?
Jmacq1
10-04-2006, 11:39 AM
It absolutely -is- part of continuity. ARguably it's the second most important title of the crossover, since it's the "official companion" to the main series. Whether it should be or not is the only matter up for debate.
Personally, I could care less either way. It certainly provides plenty of fodder for the "burn the Pro-Reg" fires, but otherwise it hasn't really added much to the overall story for me. Even without it, the Pro-Reg side has done more than enough questionable activities in other tie-ins to keep me firmly aligned against them as far as my "reader's loyalty" goes.
The contradictions don't surprise me though...as the issues are probably being created/drawn/written at the same time as their "Civil War" counterparts. They probably get a "rough outline" of events, but not a "finished product" to base their own work off of. That's the problem with running series like this concurrently...details are going to be off unless you magically compare final printed products to each other.
For instance, maybe the initial draft of Civil War #4 said Goliath got electrocuted, and the Frontline folks never got the word about the change in time to actually fix it.
Continuity errors happen. Writers of tie-ins don't get play by play of battle sequences... they probably just gets notes. And different writers will have some slight variation on characterizatrion (honestly I think the main Civil War book itself is more guilty of that problem than any of the tie ins). We see this all the time in crossovers... the bigger and more complex the cross over, the more likely it will probably be.
Do I think it should be removed from continuity simply because it has some minor glitches? No. I find it a well written story, and I also believe it's a very important piece of the overall Civil War tale. In a lot of ways it covers aspects that are MORE important than whats going on in the main book. From what I am seeing, the registration will live or die based on what's we're seeing in Frontline with Speedball, rather than watching Cap and Tony duking out in the main Civil War book.
Kevinroc
10-04-2006, 12:00 PM
If you look at the "continuity" of events, CW has many such errors. Just look at FF #540, which depicts Sue's departure. It doesn't "add up" with Civil War #4.
Just take a more nebulous look at continuity, don't look at it all too deeply. You'd probably drive yourself mad if you did.
Alan2099
10-04-2006, 12:02 PM
Civil War shouldn't be in continuity.
Nevets F
10-04-2006, 12:17 PM
Civil War AND Frontline are such amazing books....I am so thankful they are part of continuity.
Civil War shouldn't be in continuity.
Why do you say that ? Civil war is the best marvel event to date
Alan2099
10-04-2006, 12:44 PM
Why do you say that ? Civil war is the best marvel event to date
You're supposed to lable your sarcasm so people can tell when you're joking.
But if you seriously think this is the best event they've ever done, then our opinions are so far about that I'm not sure we're even using the same defintion of the word.
NormanB
10-04-2006, 12:45 PM
Why do you say that ? Civil war is the best marvel event to date
Infinity Gauntlet would like to have a word with you.
So would Secret Wars.
Frontline 6: Urich is a Fox News style "reporter" who apparantly feels that shouting out random questions about national security and not getting an answer is absoloute proof that he is right.
Not to mention, he joted down words on what must be a thoroughly soaked notepad. Have fun deciphering those obscure notes of yours, Urich! >:/
El Santo
10-04-2006, 01:19 PM
If you want the "pure" story, just read the mini-series. If you want to see what your favorite characters are up to, read their tie-ins. If you want to read about Ben Urich and Co., read Frontline.
If you want to whine about how books you don't like shouldn't be in continuity, don't expect me to care.
Effect
10-04-2006, 01:25 PM
Civil War shouldn't be in continuity.
lol I was just thinking that. It isn't that the tie ins are causing the problem but the main title itself that could be causing the problems with continuity.
Personally I feel that the main title should have been a joint effort by all of the main title writers. Bendis (New Avengers, Ms. Marvel, and future Mighty Avengers), JMS (Amazing Spider-man, Fantastic Four),writers of Iron Man, Captain America, and possibly the writer from Thunderbolts.
That way the main title syncs up what they are doing in all of the other titles. Those not in on the main title should all have their tie ins should be about a month behind that way what those issues cover what has happen already from the point of view of those characters so they work better with what has happen already.
Infinity Gauntlet would like to have a word with you.
So would Secret Wars.
yea Secret Wars is great
But Civil War has the most impact and Drama on the Marvel Universe.I mean Spider-man Unmasked to the public is a big deal.The tie-ins make more sense then house of M tie-ins
CyberCoyote
10-04-2006, 01:30 PM
Don't blame Frontline, blame the editorial coordination. It seems pretty lax considering the huge spotlight being placed on the 'event'. The general answer I tend to hear is 'people read too much into it'. No, they just READ it. It's not like the comics write themselves, some guidelines should have been written down. Oh well.
Magneto Rocks
10-04-2006, 01:41 PM
If you want the "pure" story, just read the mini-series. If you want to see what your favorite characters are up to, read their tie-ins. If you want to read about Ben Urich and Co., read Frontline.
If you want to whine about how books you don't like shouldn't be in continuity, don't expect me to care.
No, I think it's more, "If you wish to read a political commentary so thinly disguised they just flat-out say it, and totally out of charatcer and ridiculous behaviour read Frontline"
It isn't that I don't LIKE the book, it's that it contradicts with not only almost every other CW tie-in but a substantial part of Marvel continuity!
PS; It's all down to opinion. I prefer Civil War to Secret Wars, which was really just one big dumb fight with no consequences (Sorry, I know I;ll get bashed but it's true!) and Infinity Gauntlet. Which was, obviously, pretty damn good.
But if you seriously think this is the best event they've ever done, then our opinions are so far about that I'm not sure we're even using the same defintion of the word.
Maybe he means in this 'superarc' You know, Disassembled, House of M, and Civil War. So far, Civilw War has potential to be far more blowful than even House of M though. Depowering is one thing, but Reed and Tony are getting taken apart on a character level.
Nevets F
10-04-2006, 02:03 PM
I have read all the big storylines...and yes, Civil War is ONE of the best Marvel has ever put out.
Mean Mr Mustard
10-04-2006, 02:35 PM
Does anyone even like Frontline?
Personally I can't stand it. Specially the little feature at the end comparing Civil War to the American Civil War, Vietnam, etc.
RabidWolfe
10-04-2006, 02:58 PM
Civil War shouldn't be in continuity.
Best statement I've heard all year.
StrikeForce Albert
10-04-2006, 03:12 PM
Civil War is one big excuse for the "frat boys" at MARVEL to push thier political views on everyone. Hell, I agree with them on things, but this just way to stupid
sephirothskiller
10-04-2006, 03:21 PM
I really am enjoying reading Civil War, and I do agree that its one of the best titles Marvel has put out. Heads and shoulders above House of M and dissasembled to be sure. Maybe that's just because I don't like to look to deeply into things though and just enjoy a comic for its value as a story. IM was one of my favourite characters before CW, and now he isn't. Big deal. Mark Millar clearly stated that he is on IM's side, and so this really isn't even trying to be bias.
You see, the difference between this and the War on Terror, (which it's allegorizing,) is that when we read comic books we don't have a propoganda machine there blinding us to the fact that what is happening is so blatantly horrible. Some people may agree with IM sure, and that's fine, I may not understand those opinions but I'm sure that they have some basis.
Don't complain if you think that these titles are biased... They're that way because, as the great Stephen Colbert once said: "Reality has a strong liberal bias." Guess that goes for allegories of reality too.
Alan2099
10-04-2006, 03:56 PM
You see, the difference between this and the War on Terror, (which it's allegorizing,) is that when we read comic books we don't have a propoganda machine there blinding us to the fact that what is happening is so blatantly horrible. Some people may agree with IM sure, and that's fine, I may not understand those opinions but I'm sure that they have some basis.
Well, that and the fact that in one case they're trying to target terroritsts and in another they're targetting people that have saved reality several times over out of the good of their hearts.
JeffreyWKramer
10-04-2006, 05:54 PM
Why do you say that ? Civil war is the best marvel event to date
No.
It beats out SECRET WARS II, I'll give you that much.
Valen
10-05-2006, 06:45 AM
Infinity Gauntlet would like to have a word with you.
So would Secret Wars.
I likes both when I read them originally, but after recently rereading my opinion has changed. I find both Infinity Gauntlet and Secret Wars to now be uniteresting. It seems I now prefer the real-world based drama of Civil War to the free for all fights of Secret Wars. I guess it is just the evolution of my tastes as a comic fan.
I think it is interesting of the division between those that love and those that hate Civil War. It seems to fall along similar line to those who either prefer the older runs of Chris Claremont and John Byrne (CW haters) or those who enjoy newer writers Like Brian Bendis and Mark Millar (CW lovers). I think the shift in writing styles has led to stornger stories and more realistic takes on the heroes, but I certainly understand why the fans of the "classic" era would have distain for the current trends.
Jmacq1
10-05-2006, 07:20 AM
Actually, I generally enjoy a lot of the things Bendis and Millar write, but I also greatly enjoy "classic" era comics. I'm also a huge critic of how this "event" has been handled and how the characters within have been portrayed.
You can't pigeonhole the people that do or don't like Civil War, because it boils down to a lot more than just who enjoys which writers and whatnot. You are correct though, in that it does pit the segment of fandom that wants "realistic" against those that prefer more "fantastic" in the tone of the Marvel Universe. A concern more than a few people seem to have is that if "death and doom and gloom" is going to become the order of the day at Marvel ("Oh by the way, the Hulk is a mass murderer and always has been, and also in case you didn't know, Superheroes are just as dangerous to innocent lives as the supervillains and always have been, you just didn't realize it!"), then the Marvel Universe may end up not being a place they enjoy reading about anymore. It's only natural that they're going to voice dissent on that topic. Why should those readers get alienated while another segment is catered to?
There should be a happy middle ground somewhere in all this, and I'm hoping Marvel can find it. But at this rate I'm not holding high hopes. I may enjoy Millar's work outside of the "regular/616" Marvel Universe, but I'm not a fan of turning the 616 into another "Ultimate-verse".
NormanB
10-05-2006, 07:28 AM
yea Secret Wars is great
But Civil War has the most impact and Drama on the Marvel Universe.I mean Spider-man Unmasked to the public is a big deal.The tie-ins make more sense then house of M tie-ins
True, but people were just as excited for a new Spiderman costume back in the day as they were for the unmasking of Spiderman.
Bear in mind that this is a relative statement. There was no internet, and comics couldn't buy mainstream buzz.
It is more dramatic, yes. But thus far, it hasn't proven itself (to me at least) to surpass the other events I've mentioned. Course, it's not oiver yet.
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying it. I'm just hesitant to call it "the best."
patch
10-05-2006, 08:07 AM
can we take "house of m" out of continuity :)
Phrozen
10-05-2006, 08:11 AM
can we take "house of m" out of continuity :)
No, we need to go all the way back to Disassembled. Gank that and everything turns out better.
Miss Kitty Fantastico
10-05-2006, 08:28 AM
Does anyone even like Frontline?
I'm quite enjoying it. I'd enjoy it a lot more if it were more balanced, because then it'd conform more to the perspective I already have on Civil War, but I can still enjoy it as storytelling on its own terms. Biased or not, the writing is crisp and interesting, the dialogue is usually pretty good, the art works for me, and I'm interested to varying degrees in seeing where all the stories are going (more so with Sally in 'Embedded' and She-Hulk's role in 'The Accused,' not so much interested in Ben Urich, and 'Sleeper Cell' has yet to do anything much for me).
The historical sections have varied a bit - I simply adored the first one (the Japanese American internment camp), but some of the more recent ones have been a bit one-dimensional.
So yeah, that's about the size of it. I initially thought, based on the previews, that Front Line might be the most interesting of title of the whole event, and it hasn't lived up to that expectation. It's not a balanced account, no doubt about it, but for an astute reader who's not going to be told what to think by the writer, I still think it's a valuable addition to the Civil War.
patch
10-05-2006, 08:45 AM
No, we need to go all the way back to Disassembled. Gank that and everything turns out better.
I like your ideas...how can i sign up to your newsletter :)
Dark Soul # 7
10-05-2006, 08:50 AM
I'm personally loving Civil War and understand if other people doesn't like it. And I don't really care. They have their opinion and I have mine and all that. There's always two or three views on all matters. When it comes to comics it's all a matter of opinion.
On the original subject of this thread I don't read Frontline and reading the description of certain events in it makes me rather glad I didn't. Luckily I can just ignore it. Like I do with House of M and all it's tie-ins.
Kevinroc
10-05-2006, 09:38 AM
No, we need to go all the way back to Disassembled. Gank that and everything turns out better.
And then we lose Young Avengers and Planet Hulk.
And who would want that?
El Santo
10-05-2006, 02:29 PM
No, I think it's more, "If you wish to read a political commentary so thinly disguised they just flat-out say it, and totally out of charatcer and ridiculous behaviour read Frontline"
It isn't that I don't LIKE the book, it's that it contradicts with not only almost every other CW tie-in but a substantial part of Marvel continuity!
PS; It's all down to opinion. I prefer Civil War to Secret Wars, which was really just one big dumb fight with no consequences (Sorry, I know I;ll get bashed but it's true!) and Infinity Gauntlet. Which was, obviously, pretty damn good.
Again, you never hear anti-reg people up in arms whenever Captain America and his side are compared to common criminals and terrorists. Why? Because they're breaking the law.
If you break the law, even with the best of intentions, even if you are RIGHT, you can technically be called a criminal.
If you demolish the civil rights of Americans and establish a police state regime, even if you have the best of intentions, even if you are RIGHT, you are still a fascist. If you're rounding people up based on them being different and shipping them to detention camps, you are acting like a Nazi, no matter what your motivation is.
Phrozen
10-05-2006, 02:39 PM
And then we lose Young Avengers and Planet Hulk.
And who would want that?
Sacrafices have to be made for the greater good.
Phrozen
10-05-2006, 02:41 PM
I like your ideas...how can i sign up to your newsletter :)
I can set you up with in a site with like minded posters. Just tread carefully there, the CBR mods watch it and are not afraid to ban you for stuff you posted on that site.
No, we need to go all the way back to Disassembled. Gank that and everything turns out better.
I see DC do that every couple years... Crisis after Crisis to lay retcon on top of retcon.
That sort of approach almost NEVER does anyone any good. It basically tells people who bought those books that it they spent money on something meaningless.
I say keep things simple. If something happenend... then it happened. If some don't like it, that's life... all we and they should do is move on from there.
Phrozen
10-05-2006, 03:01 PM
I see DC do that every couple years... Crisis after Crisis to lay retcon on top of retcon.
That sort of approach almost NEVER does anyone any good. It basically tells people who bought those books that it they spent money on something meaningless.
I say keep things simple. If something happenend... then it happened. If some don't like it, that's life... all we and they should do is move on from there.
and then you write yourself into a corner. Like Civil War is doing now and Wildstorm just did.
You have an easy out in Doom's Time Machine too.
and then you write yourself into a corner. Like Civil War is doing now and Wildstorm just did.
You have an easy out in Doom's Time Machine too.
We don't know Marvel has written itself into a corner... the series is only halfway done.
And considering that Marvel already has next Summers big event planned out, I don't think Marvel feels that it has written itself into a corner.
Phrozen
10-05-2006, 03:10 PM
We don't know Marvel has written itself into a corner... the series is only halfway done.
And considering that Marvel already has next Summers big event planned out, I don't think Marvel feels that it has written itself into a corner.
Well, looks like the comic companies learned nothing from the early 90s. They are gonna crossover themselves in to the ground again. I just hope this time competent leadership picks up the pieces.
For now, keep spiraling downward. Faster please.
El Santo
10-05-2006, 03:46 PM
Yeah, Marvel better fix all this soon...we wouldn't want actual progress to be made. The Marvel U should remain static and unchanging, just like the real world. :rolleyes:
Joe Acro
10-05-2006, 04:06 PM
Inconsistencies are happening with Civil War. Thing being in Civil War #3 was the start. I haven't been reading any of the tie-in mags, but from the posts here I can gather that it's gotten worse. I feel that, given decent writers and editors, these continuity glitches shouldn't occur. When I complained about the continuity problems with Infinite Crisis, I was told to believe what the main title told me. But, in this case, I'd much rather believe the tie-ins, which are generally more character-focused anyway.
Loestal
10-05-2006, 04:29 PM
Well, looks like the comic companies learned nothing from the early 90s. They are gonna crossover themselves in to the ground again. I just hope this time competent leadership picks up the pieces.
For now, keep spiraling downward. Faster please.
Actually, they have said that WWH won't be a huge crossover like HoM or CW. It with crossover sure, but not in the same size scale.
Kevinroc
10-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Sacrafices have to be made for the greater good.
Obviously coming from a man not reading Hulk.
Alan2099
10-05-2006, 06:31 PM
Yeah, Marvel better fix all this soon...we wouldn't want actual progress to be made.
Fix is a good word here.
Breaking something may change things, but it's hardly progress.
CyberCoyote
10-05-2006, 08:20 PM
Obviously coming from a man not reading Hulk.
He's serious. Read the Hulk. Damned good stuff.
Butch Mapa
10-05-2006, 09:28 PM
Breaking something may change things, but it's hardly progress.
It could be... as opposed to going back to status quo which is definitely not progress.
To the original poster-- just cut Frontline out of continuity in your mind. You won't run into a problem unless you meet someone who is fanboyishly adamant about it being IN continuity. And you'll feel much better. :)
Core, Earthbound Marvel since Disassembled has made about as much progress as a satalite carrying rocket plowing a mile long furrow in the ground. Sure, it got off the pad, but it would have been better if it had just stayed there.
Also, if anyone is unhappy with Frontline for painting the pro side as evil -- CW4 featured Reed taking a black&decker cordless to the brainpan of an evil Thor clone and Tony bringing in a stable of guys not even Doom would deal with. But yeah, Frontline is smudging thier spotless moral records.
Butch Mapa
10-05-2006, 09:57 PM
Sure, it got off the pad, but it would have been better if it had just stayed there.
Your opinion, of course. :) And in my opinion, its gotten more interesting.
And even if you were right, I'd rather watch a rocket plow a mile underground (that'd be pretty cool, actually) than... see a rocket just sit there on its pad.
misterorange
10-05-2006, 10:41 PM
I have been reading over my issues of CW: Frontline, and I've come to a conclusion.
This title should NOT be considered Marvel canon.
Again and again and again I read something which is so blatantly biased that it's almost impossible it exists, something which contradicts OTHER, more reliable books, something which simply seems ridiculous in the extreme or else staggering OOC-ness. And frankly, I'm sick of it.
These are just SOME of the worst transgressions of the book... FROM THE LATEST ISSUE ALONE.
(CW4 spoilers):
-The Death of Goliath
Civil War #4: Thor blasts a hole through him
Frontline 6: Thor electrocutes him
-Nighthawk and SHIELD
Civil War #4- Nighthawk may or may not be in the battle, it is uncertain. The SHIELD forces do not engage until after the Clor attack.
Frontline #6: Nighthawk is there and engaged in a massive aerial duel with SHIELD forces in which he appears to blow up at least one copter.
-The arrival of Thor
Civil War #3: A battered Cap is being beaten by Iron Man, without his shield. Hercules races to save him and is struck by a bolt of lightning- Thor is there!
Frontline #6 Nighthawk (!!!) is the first person attacked- electrocuted by Thor. (Ironically, this happens to NO-ONE in the main title) Thor then knocks over Cap. A totally intact Cap, with his shield.
-The Super-villain forces
Civil War #4They are an absoloutely last-minute force used only when there is no other way, first deployed approximately a week after the battle at Geffen Meyer and under watch by super-heroes.
Frontline 4/5/6: They are allowed to roam alone without any watch-over days before the battle at Geffen Meyer.
-Negative Zone Prison
Amazing Spider-Man #535, Mark Millar and Tom Brevoort: The Negative Zone Prison is extremely clean, well policed and high tech. It holds 20 or so big name meta-humans, and not THAT many people... yet.
Frontline #6: It holds HUNDREDS of meta-humans. The cells are tiyn, cramped and dirty with no toilets, and people being taken in are strapped down. Rather than having their powers restricted in ANY way, they appear to be able to commit suicide with their own powers... without being stopped.
-Ben Urich:
Most of Marvel History: Ben Urich is a great, likeable reporter.
Frontline 6: Urich is a Fox News style "reporter" who apparantly feels that shouting out random questions about national security and not getting an answer is absoloute proof that he is right.
That was just for starters. I mean, one that leapt out at me from another issue was-
-Mr Fantastic
Most of Marvel History: Reed is one of the most intelligent men, if not THE most intelligent man, in the world.
Frontline: Reed can get pwned by Ben Urich.
Overall, there are a simply ASTONISHING amount of contradictions and inaccuracies across Frontline. Not only that, but it is written with sheer, untempered bias like no other Civil War book.
I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY possibility is that it takes place in some hideous alternative reality where we need metaphors absoloutely crammed down our throats until we gag, and most of the world's best super-humans have been replaced with fascists, moreso than ANY other CW book.
I was just wondering- am I the only person who feels this way, or does no-one else agree that this series seems to be taking Civil War and ripping it apart?
Is this even part of continuity anymore?
More importantly- SHOULD it be?
If this bothers you then does the new FF bother you? Just curious cause it seems to give a different light how Susan left.
ninjapeps
10-06-2006, 03:12 AM
-Negative Zone Prison
Amazing Spider-Man #535, Mark Millar and Tom Brevoort: The Negative Zone Prison is extremely clean, well policed and high tech. It holds 20 or so big name meta-humans, and not THAT many people... yet.
Frontline #6: It holds HUNDREDS of meta-humans. The cells are tiyn, cramped and dirty with no toilets, and people being taken in are strapped down. Rather than having their powers restricted in ANY way, they appear to be able to commit suicide with their own powers... without being stopped.
this one's easy enough to explain. Tony didn't show Peter everything.
Simon Garth
10-06-2006, 05:23 AM
So would Secret Wars.
To quote Alan2099: You're supposed to label your sarcasm so people can tell when you're joking. But if you seriously think this is the best event they've ever done, then our opinions are so far about that I'm not sure we're even using the same defintion of the word
Personally, I'm really enjoying CW - having been around at the time for SW, it was IMHO an absolute trainwreck, and SW2 was a major influence in getting me out of comics for 15 years
Then again, I'm not reading most of the tie-ins - so any continuity glitches aren't really glaring.
NormanB
10-06-2006, 05:34 AM
To quote Alan2099: You're supposed to label your sarcasm so people can tell when you're joking. But if you seriously think this is the best event they've ever done, then our opinions are so far about that I'm not sure we're even using the same defintion of the word
Personally, I'm really enjoying CW - having been around at the time for SW, it was IMHO an absolute trainwreck, and SW2 was a major influence in getting me out of comics for 15 years
Then again, I'm not reading most of the tie-ins - so any continuity glitches aren't really glaring.
Actually, I think Infinity Gauntlet is top of my list. And Secret Wars, in spite of being merely BIG DUMB FUN, was really good. SW2, on the other hand, was a bit asstastic.
And as I mentioned in a later post, I too, am enjoying Civil War. I think it's solid and potentially ground-breaking. I also think Anihilation is a better read right now. We'll see how things wrap up. Course, I loved (LOVED) Maximum Carnage, which I know puts me in a huge minority.
Different Strokes, eh? :)
Trolt
10-08-2006, 03:03 PM
Paul Jenkins ? Who's behind this?
mattspideyrocks!
10-09-2006, 11:44 AM
Actually, I think Infinity Gauntlet is top of my list. And Secret Wars, in spite of being merely BIG DUMB FUN, was really good. SW2, on the other hand, was a bit asstastic.
And as I mentioned in a later post, I too, am enjoying Civil War. I think it's solid and potentially ground-breaking. I also think Anihilation is a better read right now. We'll see how things wrap up. Course, I loved (LOVED) Maximum Carnage, which I know puts me in a huge minority.
Different Strokes, eh? :)
You are god. To know that someone else loved it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. :D
Alan2099
10-09-2006, 11:59 AM
Actually, I think Infinity Gauntlet is top of my list. And Secret Wars, in spite of being merely BIG DUMB FUN, was really good. SW2, on the other hand, was a bit asstastic.
And as I mentioned in a later post, I too, am enjoying Civil War. I think it's solid and potentially ground-breaking. I also think Anihilation is a better read right now. We'll see how things wrap up. Course, I loved (LOVED) Maximum Carnage, which I know puts me in a huge minority.
Different Strokes, eh? :)
I'll agree with you on maximum Carnage, Infinity Gauntlet, Annihilation, and Secret wars.
Civil War, not so much.
Magneto Rocks
10-09-2006, 12:12 PM
this one's easy enough to explain. Tony didn't show Peter everything.
Right. And of course, I'm sure it couldn't possibly be anything that made the pro-reg side look BETTER, or anything.
Nope, it seems that area of the prison was heavily under construction. Sorry guys who were jumping on it as excuses of pro-reg evilness. (According to Mr Brevoort).
If this bothers you then does the new FF bother you? Just curious cause it seems to give a different light how Susan left.
No, FF has some errors but it has the distinction of not being a hideously written mess.
yeoman
10-09-2006, 01:58 PM
-The Super-villain forces
Civil War #4They are an absoloutely last-minute force used only when there is no other way, first deployed approximately a week after the battle at Geffen Meyer and under watch by super-heroes.
This isn't a way that any sane individual would ever think of. Ever. Bullseye. Gorramn Bullseye. And Norman "Hey, watch me throw this chick off a bridge" Osbron.
Actually, I think Infinity Gauntlet is top of my list. And Secret Wars, in spite of being merely BIG DUMB FUN, was really good. SW2, on the other hand, was a bit asstastic.
And as I mentioned in a later post, I too, am enjoying Civil War. I think it's solid and potentially ground-breaking. I also think Anihilation is a better read right now. We'll see how things wrap up. Course, I loved (LOVED) Maximum Carnage, which I know puts me in a huge minority.
Different Strokes, eh? :)
I agree civil war is ground-breaking and secret wars was one of the best.What was secret wars 2 about
Phrozen
10-09-2006, 02:18 PM
I agree civil war is ground-breaking and secret wars was one of the best.What was secret wars 2 about
Civil War is not groundbreaking. For one City of Heroes did it first with the Might for Right Act. (Look up The Malta Group, Operation: World Wide Red, and the Men of Malta) Secondly, they did it without turning two of their premier super heroes into supervillians.
I agree civil war is ground-breaking and secret wars was one of the best.What was secret wars 2 about
Secret Wars 2 was pretty lame. Beyonder comes to earth, interacts with heroes, eventually becomes this uber universal threat that they all have to come together to fight (though Molecule Man does most of the work).
Bad series with lots of bad tie ins. A perfect example of how NOT to do a big company wide event.
Shaoken
10-10-2006, 03:38 AM
You know, you could just write off Frontline's errors as just being the way the person telling the story remebers it.
spyridona
10-10-2006, 04:43 AM
Right. And of course, I'm sure it couldn't possibly be anything that made the pro-reg side look BETTER, or anything.
The Pro side needs all the help they can get after killing a man and not facing up to the ramifications, even if it is an accident.
Nope, it seems that area of the prison was heavily under construction. Sorry guys who were jumping on it as excuses of pro-reg evilness. (According to Mr
Nah, Pro-Reg is still unconstituional with this little tidbit. However, instead of being on Gitomono level, they're now compare to the crappy American prisons that overcrowd and are highly dirty which is still illegal. :D
Shaoken
10-10-2006, 04:48 AM
Well, they only transported the prisoners to another universe, where our laws don't apply. The only crime being committed is transporting the heroes off American soil, which may not even be a crime.
Rio_de_Janeiro
10-10-2006, 06:39 AM
marvel comics universe is a work of fiction, and not journalism ( and even journalism is not unbiased, check Fox News as an example ).? I find it refreshing to see that there is an ideological concern in the MU. I guess that if I were a Bushist I'd find the portrayal of the pro-reg side to be a bit badly construed, but then again, I wouldn't expect the whole world to think like me.
Nowhere has it been stated that superhero comics should portray all sides of a dispute equally; that's not part of the "contract".
personally, i feel very happy to see that there is a sector of Americana which holds to values which I also find important; after all, marvel comics get exported everywhere (here in brazil they are very popular) and most of the rest of the world, I dare say, tends to agree with the anti-fascist stand of Civil War. Granted, we don't live the United States quotidian, in which certain issues might be strongly discussed and argued. So, that's why I enjoy the comics.
However, I believe they did something very very wrong. Instead of creating or brushing up characters, they got established characters to act out roles which don't really gel with the MU previous characterization. That's where I think the problem lies. I don't believe Reed Richards would ever act the way he is acting despite knowing that he would actually support registration. Nor does Iron Man or Spider-man read realistically in these stories.
marvel comics universe is a work of fiction, and not journalism ( and even journalism is not unbiased, check Fox News as an example ).? I find it refreshing to see that there is an ideological concern in the MU. I guess that if I were a Bushist I'd find the portrayal of the pro-reg side to be a bit badly construed, but then again, I wouldn't expect the whole world to think like me.
Nowhere has it been stated that superhero comics should portray all sides of a dispute equally; that's not part of the "contract".
personally, i feel very happy to see that there is a sector of Americana which holds to values which I also find important; after all, marvel comics get exported everywhere (here in brazil they are very popular) and most of the rest of the world, I dare say, tends to agree with the anti-fascist stand of Civil War. Granted, we don't live the United States quotidian, in which certain issues might be strongly discussed and argued. So, that's why I enjoy the comics.
However, I believe they did something very very wrong. Instead of creating or brushing up characters, they got established characters to act out roles which don't really gel with the MU previous characterization. That's where I think the problem lies. I don't believe Reed Richards would ever act the way he is acting despite knowing that he would actually support registration. Nor does Iron Man or Spider-man read realistically in these stories.
I kind of agree.... I think the whole issue of whether they are telling the story in a completely balanced way or not really isn't that big a deal.
Frankly if the story was completely balanced, it would either be boring or you'd have MORE characters acting out of character. If one side is Tony and a corrupt SHIELD and the other side is Captain America, I'm not sure why anyone actually expected anything other than what we got.
yeoman
10-10-2006, 10:08 AM
Civil War is not groundbreaking. For one City of Heroes did it first with the Might for Right Act. (Look up The Malta Group, Operation: World Wide Red, and the Men of Malta) Secondly, they did it without turning two of their premier super heroes into supervillians.
The X-men where doing Mutant Registration decades ago. Miller did it in Dark Knight Returns, twenty years ago. And those are just off the top of my head.
yeoman
10-10-2006, 10:11 AM
No.
It beats out SECRET WARS II, I'll give you that much.
I wouldn't even say that.
Kevinroc
10-10-2006, 10:14 AM
The X-men where doing Mutant Registration decades ago. Miller did it in Dark Knight Returns, twenty years ago. And those are just off the top of my head.
Essentially, Marvel's been flirting with the idea of super human registration in one form or another for years and you have some examples of it from all corners of comics. It was only a matter of time before somebody in editorial (whether at Marvel or DC) or a writer said "why not" and really ran with the concept.
The concept itself doesn't strike me as something that is all that difficult to think up for a story.
Magneto Rocks
10-10-2006, 10:38 AM
Civil War is not groundbreaking. For one City of Heroes did it first with the Might for Right Act. (Look up The Malta Group, Operation: World Wide Red, and the Men of Malta) Secondly, they did it without turning two of their premier super heroes into supervillians.
Firstly- the Registration Act itself is not. But I haven't seen any crossover screw around so badly with their characters. (And I mean that the characters were badly screwed around, not that it was implemented badly or poorly) Secondly- guess what! Marvel have done it without turning ANY of their super-heroes into super villains.
Wow, isn't that a shocker!
Jmacq1
10-10-2006, 11:39 AM
Secondly- guess what! Marvel have done it without turning ANY of their super-heroes into super villains.
Wow, isn't that a shocker!
Actually, that depends entirely on what one's view of a "super villain" is.
A lot of the best villains in -all- fictional media are those that truly believe they're doing the "right thing" and the immoral and unethical means they're using to bring about a noble end are simply unfortunate and regrettable unpleasantries.
Or to put it another way, the best villains are those that make the readers wonder if they may be right.
By that logic, you could say Iron Man has become one of the best supervillains in recent memory.
Alan2099
10-10-2006, 12:07 PM
Actually, that depends entirely on what one's view of a "super villain" is.
I say anybody that tries to beat the crap out of Captain America and throw him into prison in another dimension qualifies as a super villian. :p
Essentially, Marvel's been flirting with the idea of super human registration in one form or another for years and you have some examples of it from all corners of comics. It was only a matter of time before somebody in editorial (whether at Marvel or DC) or a writer said "why not" and really ran with the concept.
The concept itself doesn't strike me as something that is all that difficult to think up for a story.
Except in the context of the MU, Registration Acts have always been evil in a way that was; to say the least, spectacular.
For decades, the X-men have been up against the wall, hunted by giant robots, and even dying because of the concept of mutant registration. Despite my continuing dislike for the new direction in NXM, Emma says it best in that comic: people die when the public knows where to find superhumans.
But suddenly, without really adequate reasoning beyond the fact that a supervillain did what supervillains have threatened to do for years; Marvel is asking us to look at the topic with an unbiased eye -- even while Sentinels are standing guard over the Xavier Institute -- new sentinels, designed by the two guys fronting the SHRA.
bulbasteve
10-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Except in the context of the MU, Registration Acts have always been evil in a way that was; to say the least, spectacular.
So what we shouldn't have villain redemptions or anything because in the context of the MU the characters are evil? Screw the MU context, it takes place in a psudo-real world, just because a law has the world "registration" in it doesn't mean it is "evil". That's like saying "Well alcohol prohibition didn't work...so let's not prohibit anything else!".
For decades, the X-men have been up against the wall, hunted by giant robots, and even dying because of the concept of mutant registration. Despite my continuing dislike for the new direction in NXM, Emma says it best in that comic: people die when the public knows where to find superhumans.
Wouldn't more people die if a hero went rogue or was mind controlled or whatever and they DIDN'T know where to find them? Or if the world was in danger and they couldn't say "yo, X-Men..save the freakin earth!". Noone has died yet in Civil War just because the government knew where a mutant or any superhuman was.
But suddenly, without really adequate reasoning beyond the fact that a supervillain did what supervillains have threatened to do for years; Marvel is asking us to look at the topic with an unbiased eye -- even while Sentinels are standing guard over the Xavier Institute -- new sentinels, designed by the two guys fronting the SHRA.
They won't be standing there anymore according to the latest CW:X-Men. I mean that was a great argument two months ago, but the President listened to the PEACEFUL debate and decided that it wasn't the best policy option (and it probably helped that the government only recently learned what M-Day actually was thanks to getting into Spidey's brain).
The supervillains did what they threatened to do but heroes STOPPED them. they didn't stop them this time and they are working to fix the flaws in the wild west system that heroes work under currently.
Magneto Rocks
10-10-2006, 02:20 PM
Actually, that depends entirely on what one's view of a "super villain" is.
A lot of the best villains in -all- fictional media are those that truly believe they're doing the "right thing" and the immoral and unethical means they're using to bring about a noble end are simply unfortunate and regrettable unpleasantries.
Or to put it another way, the best villains are those that make the readers wonder if they may be right.
By that logic, you could say Iron Man has become one of the best supervillains in recent memory.
That exact argument can be reversed right back at Cap's side, with just as much ease.
garin
10-10-2006, 03:00 PM
I kind of agree.... I think the whole issue of whether they are telling the story in a completely balanced way or not really isn't that big a deal.
Frankly if the story was completely balanced, it would either be boring or you'd have MORE characters acting out of character. If one side is Tony and a corrupt SHIELD and the other side is Captain America, I'm not sure why anyone actually expected anything other than what we got.It's funny. Up until the most recent round of tie-in books I was actually arguing against the accusations of bias levelled at Marvel, in much the same way as you are here. I still have no problem with the main Civil War book, or even with the broad strokes of the plot in the tie-ins. The presentation, however, is absolutely terrible.
Marvel came up with their great tagline, Whose Side Are You On? They've now amended it with Oops, The Side You Picked Are Nazis.
So far the pro-registartion guys have been winning the war on the ground, but taking an absolute beating on the idealogical front. And that's solely because none of the writers seem particularly interested in arguing their case any more. We just get comparisons to slave owners and Nazis with only stammering or silence as rebuttal.
So what we shouldn't have villain redemptions or anything because in the context of the MU the characters are evil? Screw the MU context, it takes place in a psudo-real world, just because a law has the world "registration" in it doesn't mean it is "evil". That's like saying "Well alcohol prohibition didn't work...so let's not prohibit anything else!".
On context however, the SHRA is saying 'alchol prohibition didn't work -- but surely prohibiting all non-water beverages is a great plan!'
Wouldn't more people die if a hero went rogue or was mind controlled or whatever and they DIDN'T know where to find them?
IF a bunch of people are dying some a rogue superhuman, finding them will not be a problem.
Or if the world was in danger and they couldn't say "yo, X-Men..save the freakin earth!".
Because clearly the X-men wouldn't save the Earth on thier own volition and thus need to be contracted (*cough*enslaved*cough*) with SHIELD to do so.
Noone has died yet in Civil War just because the government knew where a mutant or any superhuman was.
*looks at Goliath, looks at Digitek* Well, no one anyone cares about anyway.
They won't be standing there anymore according to the latest CW:X-Men.
I'll beleive it when the rejects from Human Instrumentality are actually gone. I wouldn't put it past ONE to go rogue as they're pretty much on Donald Pierce's level of mutant hate.
The supervillains did what they threatened to do but heroes STOPPED them. they didn't stop them this time and they are working to fix the flaws in the wild west system that heroes work under currently.
1) They were in the process of stopping them. Until some hidden benefactor gave the dude some MGH and bumped him past his normal streetleveler powers.
2) How come no one is fixing the gaping, hemoraging flaws in SHIELD itself before they hand them the world's supply of supers on a platter? I mean the Avengers were investigating them for massive corruption like last month (Marvel time)
3) We've really had no flaws in the way heros opperate in the MU -- even in the context of Civil War (Stamford and the Hulk's rampage were the results of supervillain plots). Really, Marvel's super community, as a whole is less screwed up than the Justice League.
The only difference is the out of necessity for thier flagship characters (Spiderman and the X-men) the public has a wild, irrational hatred of superhumans.
The flaw is in the public, not the supers.
bulbasteve
10-10-2006, 04:42 PM
On context however, the SHRA is saying 'alchol prohibition didn't work -- but surely prohibiting all non-water beverages is a great plan!'
What does that have to do with what I said? I asked if no villains should ever redeem themselves because the "context" of the comics has them as villains. Just because the government has been portrayed as "evil" in the MU in the past is really not a good reason to be against registration.
IF a bunch of people are dying some a rogue superhuman, finding them will not be a problem.
Carnage was killing massive amounts of people on the streets of New York City (where what, hundreds of supers live?) and it took DAYS to bring him and his gang down. Superheroes are HORRIBLE at coordination and rapid response, that sort of things happens in the MIDDLE of New York, and you think they are going to be able to really go after rogue supers doing god knows what?
Because clearly the X-men wouldn't save the Earth on thier own volition and thus need to be contracted (*cough*enslaved*cough*) with SHIELD to do so.
Didn't Wonderman initially refuse to save a city (or more than one) from an Atlantian terrorist plot? Now would you rather those half a dozen buildings be blown up or a hero be free to just sit on his hands and say, like Parker to the police officer, that it isn't his job?
*looks at Goliath, looks at Digitek* Well, no one anyone cares about anyway.
Obviously Goliath has nothing to do with them knowing where he is since he didn't register, and they sent the signal to bring those guys TO them, not find where they are holding up. And Digitek "killed" himself (remember Tom says he is probably not even dead), so that has nothing to do with knowing where any mutant is either.
I'll beleive it when the rejects from Human Instrumentality are actually gone. I wouldn't put it past ONE to go rogue as they're pretty much on Donald Pierce's level of mutant hate.
So the ONE officers who reported the mutant hater to their superiors and overturned his orders are going to go rogue to do what exactly, kill them themselves?
1) They were in the process of stopping them. Until some hidden benefactor gave the dude some MGH and bumped him past his normal streetleveler powers.
And he was right next to the school when he blew, those kids would have still died anyway, it just would have been a smaller scale, that doesn't at all change the mistakes of Stamford.
2) How come no one is fixing the gaping, hemoraging flaws in SHIELD itself before they hand them the world's supply of supers on a platter? I mean the Avengers were investigating them for massive corruption like last month (Marvel time)
Because the C.S.A/ONE also have control over superheroes? Or because a superhero inside SHIELD can whistleblow on corruptions? Or because the Avengers don't share their information with the government (see: House of M)? Pick and choose which you want.
3) We've really had no flaws in the way heros opperate in the MU -- even in the context of Civil War (Stamford and the Hulk's rampage were the results of supervillain plots). Really, Marvel's super community, as a whole is less screwed up than the Justice League.
It's the job of superheroes to STOP supervillain plots. Just because pilots or airlines aren't at fault for what happened on 9/11 doesn't mean reforms weren't needed. You don't just let people off the hook for falling asleep at the wheel just because "the badguys did it". I doubt anyone was against airline or CIA reform after 9/11, so why are superheroes any different? They didn't do their job correctly, so the government is reforming the system, that is how it should work.
patch
10-10-2006, 09:50 PM
Didn't Wonderman initially refuse to save a city (or more than one) from an Atlantian terrorist plot? Now would you rather those half a dozen buildings be blown up or a hero be free to just sit on his hands and say, like Parker to the police officer, that it isn't his job?
well yeah that should be their right as a citizen to say "no"...its like drafting all martial artists in america to be cops.
and its troubling that so many think its ok for sheild to have superhumans on a lease like attack dogs and be able to use them at thier leisure.
bulbasteve
10-10-2006, 10:10 PM
well yeah that should be their right as a citizen to say "no"...its like drafting all martial artists in america to be cops.
and its troubling that so many think its ok for sheild to have superhumans on a lease like attack dogs and be able to use them at thier leisure.
Well they have the right to say no, as Tom just said in the last round of Q and A. If he said no they would have just persued the criminal charges they had against him, he could have taken it to court nothing was stopping him. They never threatened to send him right to the Negative Zone, or even take him up on charges of refusing orders, they were going to take him up on embezzling from his charity. They offered him a DEAL, I really don't see how that is a bad thing.
You save hundreds or thousands of people, and you get an outstanding criminal charge wiped clean, that is WIN WIN.
well yeah that should be their right as a citizen to say "no"...its like drafting all martial artists in america to be cops.
and its troubling that so many think its ok for sheild to have superhumans on a lease like attack dogs and be able to use them at thier leisure.
The stupid thing to me is that there are probably a lot of heroes that would have been just as capable and more than willing to assist them without resorting to blackmail. SHIELD obviously knew Simon wasn't one of them since they had the blackmail scheme all set, but they asked him to do it anyways.
It's an example of SHIELD needlessly acting like dicks just because they can. All it does is unecessarily cause some friction with one of the dwindling number of heroes that are actually supporting the registration.
Mister Mets
10-11-2006, 08:50 AM
Frontline should be in continuity, the mistakes explained as the way the characters interpret the events.
There's a simple reason.
It sells well. A Top 20 book should remain in continuity, because it confuses readers way too much when a book is suddenly out of continuity, especially if it sells better than the books which may reference it.
patch
10-11-2006, 08:53 AM
Well they have the right to say no, as Tom just said in the last round of Q and A. If he said no they would have just persued the criminal charges they had against him, he could have taken it to court nothing was stopping him. They never threatened to send him right to the Negative Zone, or even take him up on charges of refusing orders, they were going to take him up on embezzling from his charity. They offered him a DEAL, I really don't see how that is a bad thing.
You save hundreds or thousands of people, and you get an outstanding criminal charge wiped clean, that is WIN WIN.
well good luck with a blackmaling, corrupt, and divided S.H.E.I.L.D...when they have have an army of superhuman attack dogs...you just know the storyline is coming.
well good luck with a blackmaling, corrupt, and divided S.H.E.I.L.D...when they have have an army of superhuman attack dogs...you just know the storyline is coming.
This is exactly why EVERY attempt at making a government operated hero team fails. They almost go out of their way to make the heroes working for the government as distrustful and unhappy to be under their employment as humanly possible.
Sandy Hausler
10-11-2006, 09:10 AM
You're supposed to lable your sarcasm so people can tell when you're joking.
But if you seriously think this is the best event they've ever done, then our opinions are so far about that I'm not sure we're even using the same defintion of the word.
I have to go with Alan on this one. For the country to suddenly turn against super heroes (with apparently no opposition outside of the heroes themselves) is just dumb. And putting a leash on the world's best defense against evil aliens, malignant magicians and assorted supervillains is not that smart. It's worked for 60 years. Don't fix it based on one anomaly, which was much more the fault of a single villain, rather than the super heroes involved.
I do like Frontline. It has any anti-reg vibe.<g>
Sandy Hausler
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