S.H.I.E.L.D. Corruption

[alextron]

What was the thing with SHIELD again?

[The Shadow]

What was the thing with SHIELD again?
What do you mean?

The whole corruption of SHIELD has been an ongoing plot thread throughout the Marvel U. It almost got the Avengers killed in the opening arc, forced Nick Fury underground and Maria Hill into power, and has been involed in that little mini series Civil War (you may have heard of it ;) ).

I see what you mean about SHIELD's corruption leading nowhere with little payoff. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, the entire SHIELD angle has been a thread throughout Marvel. It's not just a done in 6 storyline that is neatly finished and ignored when the next arc starts. Think of it as part of a greater tapestry. People slam Joe Q and Marvel for no continuity and almost a seperate Universe between titles... this one thread is effecting EVERYTHING.

[Shellhead]

Do you mean that 6 issue opening arc, or the 2 issue Spider Woman story or the 4 issue Sentry story? Or the 4 issue Collective story? Or the three stand alone Civil War issues?


What do you mean?

The whole corruption of SHIELD has been an ongoing plot thread throughout the Marvel U. It almost got the Avengers killed in the opening arc, forced Nick Fury underground and Maria Hill into power, and has been involed in that little mini series Civil War (you may have heard of it ;) ).

I see what you mean about SHIELD's corruption leading nowhere with little payoff. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, the entire SHIELD angle has been a thread throughout Marvel. It's not just a done in 6 storyline that is neatly finished and ignored when the next arc starts. Think of it as part of a greater tapestry. People slam Joe Q and Marvel for no continuity and almost a seperate Universe between titles... this one thread is effecting EVERYTHING.

Good points. However, I think that a very valid criticism of the corrupt SHIELD angle is that it has been done before. In fact, the ultimate corrupt SHIELD story was told in the late 80's, with the six-issue mini-series NIck Fury Vs. SHIELD. The event was foreshadowed with some incidents in various Marvel titles, including the origin of Mockingbird. The resolution involved the complete destruction of the organization SHIELD except for Nick Fury and a handful of loyal agents. It was an epic tale, and to re-hash it is uncreative, greedy and destructive to the whole concept of SHIELD.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/57062286096.6.gif

[Haunt]

Good points. However, I think that a very valid criticism of the corrupt SHIELD angle is that it has been done before. In fact, the ultimate corrupt SHIELD story was told in the late 80's, with the six-issue mini-series NIck Fury Vs. SHIELD. The event was foreshadowed with some incidents in various Marvel titles, including the origin of Mockingbird. The resolution involved the complete destruction of the organization SHIELD except for Nick Fury and a handful of loyal agents. It was an epic tale, and to re-hash it is uncreative, greedy and destructive to the whole concept of SHIELD.


perfectly said.

[The Shadow]

Good points. However, I think that a very valid criticism of the corrupt SHIELD angle is that it has been done before. In fact, the ultimate corrupt SHIELD story was told in the late 80's, with the six-issue mini-series NIck Fury Vs. SHIELD. The event was foreshadowed with some incidents in various Marvel titles, including the origin of Mockingbird. The resolution involved the complete destruction of the organization SHIELD except for Nick Fury and a handful of loyal agents. It was an epic tale, and to re-hash it is uncreative, greedy and destructive to the whole concept of SHIELD.
I never said it was original... but the mini series you speak of is 20+ years old and was self contained until the effects were eventually felt.

The difference is this isn't just (as I said above) a neat and tidy 4 or 6 issue mini series with a start and ending, but an ongoing story across the entire Marvel Universe touching many titles over the course of several years (at this point) with the big effect being Civil War. Did the mini have that kind of an impact or was it over and forgotten about for, oh, say 20+ years?

And lets be honest... other than Alan Moore and maybe Grant Morrison, how many people are churning out truly original ideas nowadays??? EVERYTHING is influenced by the past and many stories get told and re-told and re-told AGAIN. At least this isn't something that gets done every few years.

[Jmacq1]

Good points. However, I think that a very valid criticism of the corrupt SHIELD angle is that it has been done before. In fact, the ultimate corrupt SHIELD story was told in the late 80's, with the six-issue mini-series NIck Fury Vs. SHIELD. The event was foreshadowed with some incidents in various Marvel titles, including the origin of Mockingbird. The resolution involved the complete destruction of the organization SHIELD except for Nick Fury and a handful of loyal agents. It was an epic tale, and to re-hash it is uncreative, greedy and destructive to the whole concept of SHIELD.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/57062286096.6.gif


I have to digress on one point: It's not destructive to the concept of SHIELD, but rather is beholden to the concept of Nick Fury. Since the whole point of Nick Fury running SHIELD was that he was the one man that could be trusted to run it effectively yet remain uncorrupted.

And since SHIELD once again grew to the monolithic organization it was before, the whole point is that SHIELD falls apart (or falls into corruption) as soon as Nick Fury is out of the picture.

Just like Steve Rogers is the only guy that can truly be Captain America, Nick Fury is the only guy that can truly manage SHIELD.

[DEWLine]

I disagree with that premise. Why? Because Nick Fury must not be perceived as indispensible.

What we're seeing now in the wake of Secret War is the premise of "what happens to SHIELD when Nick Fury finally screws up badly enough to deserve cashiering?"

And with the Latverian stunt, he finally did precisely that. There were going to be consequences. For the organization itself, for its backers, for the threat forces it's tasked to oppose, for everyone.

Especially for Nick. He has to suffer those consequences.

And we have to watch how they play out for everyone else on the field.

[Karthak]

I disagree with that premise. Why? Because Nick Fury must not be perceived as indispensible.

What we're seeing now in the wake of Secret War is the premise of "what happens to SHIELD when Nick Fury finally screws up badly enough to deserve cashiering?"

And with the Latverian stunt, he finally did precisely that. There were going to be consequences. For the organization itself, for its backers, for the threat forces it's tasked to oppose, for everyone.

Especially for Nick. He has to suffer those consequences.

And we have to watch how they play out for everyone else on the field.
I bet you ten bucks that the situation would have been much more messed up if he hadn´t tried the "Latveria stunt".

[DDM]

Good points. However, I think that a very valid criticism of the corrupt SHIELD angle is that it has been done before. In fact, the ultimate corrupt SHIELD story was told in the late 80's, with the six-issue mini-series NIck Fury Vs. SHIELD. The event was foreshadowed with some incidents in various Marvel titles, including the origin of Mockingbird. The resolution involved the complete destruction of the organization SHIELD except for Nick Fury and a handful of loyal agents. It was an epic tale, and to re-hash it is uncreative, greedy and destructive to the whole concept of SHIELD.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/57062286096.6.gif

I agree. SHIELD's corruption is just another example the Marvel House of Ideas is infested with vermin, cockroaches, termites, & has fallen into disrepair.

Marvel also keeps repeating certain reality warp themes in most of their books with The Eternals, the recent House of M...

[DEWLine]

The White House and its counterparts thought they could leverage Von Bardas into toeing their lines, knowing full well what she was up to with the supervillains within their own borders. They were playing with fire. Their stupidity doesn't excuse Nick's own foul-ups.

He didn't pick the right people for the job to begin with(save for Daisy Johnson and the Black Widow, possibly Wolverine as well), he didn't make sure the job was done thoroughly, he rendered most of the people he used vulnerable to reprisals by having them mind-wiped after the fact, and by extension he made the USA in general and NYC in particular a target by those mistakes. Lives were lost, in Latveria and NYC, that didn't have to be lost as a result of these mistakes.

No. Nick finally screwed up badly enough to earn the pink slip.

Now Maria Hill's forced to learn on the fly how to last as long as Nick did. May Whatever or Whomever she believes in help her.

[Jmacq1]

The White House and its counterparts thought they could leverage Von Bardas into toeing their lines, knowing full well what she was up to with the supervillains within their own borders. They were playing with fire. Their stupidity doesn't excuse Nick's own foul-ups.

He didn't pick the right people for the job to begin with(save for Daisy Johnson and the Black Widow, possibly Wolverine as well), he didn't make sure the job was done thoroughly, he rendered most of the people he used vulnerable to reprisals by having them mind-wiped after the fact, and by extension he made the USA in general and NYC in particular a target by those mistakes. Lives were lost, in Latveria and NYC, that didn't have to be lost as a result of these mistakes.

No. Nick finally screwed up badly enough to earn the pink slip.

Now Maria Hill's forced to learn on the fly how to last as long as Nick did. May Whatever or Whomever she believes in help her.

She certainly got off to a flying start by vaporizing a bunch of innocent slaves in the Savage Land. But I guess that doesn't count since no one brought SHIELD to task for it.

Personally? I still believe Nick's final (I believe) words in "Secret War" were ultimately correct: "History will prove me right".

Maybe not on the mind-wiping, but quite frankly, even -more- lives might have been lost if Von Bardas hadn't been stopped/delayed. We'll never know...because she was.

Actually, maybe not...since Doom would have eventually showed up and vaporized her. ;)

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still say the whole point is that Nick Fury is indispensable. But it almost sounds like we're saying the same thing from two different angles.

[estee]

Dum Dum Dougan said in the latest Cap that none of what's happening in Civil War would have happening in the first place if Nick had been around.

Don't know if that's just pressing a plot point or really how things would have been.

[jade_nova]

SHIELD is always take over by corrupt people. Not a week goes by that someone doesn't try to take it over. I bet Nick Fury even has it scheduled to fight who over is trying to take over SHIELD.

[Jmacq1]

SHIELD is always take over by corrupt people. Not a week goes by that someone doesn't try to take it over. I bet Nick Fury even has it scheduled to fight who over is trying to take over SHIELD.

He probably does, as more than a few times he's shown up -just- in time to catch the would-be coup leaders with their pants down.

[lightning]

Dum Dum Dougan said in the latest Cap that none of what's happening in Civil War would have happening in the first place if Nick had been around.

Don't know if that's just pressing a plot point or really how things would have been.

I figure it's just to highlight the fact that Fury and Hill have different approaches to the whole super-hero situation - Fury is willing to use costumed heroes to acheive his ends (Secret War, anyone?) and probably wouldn't be too keen on this whole registration business, since it takes a tool out of his toolbox.

I do wish that the "corruption in SHIELD" plotline gets picked up again in NEw Avengers after Civil War ends. It doesn't have to get wrapped up in a 6-issue mini-series or anything, but some acknowledgement that something is shady would be nice. I mean, do we even know what the Savage Land mining and the supervillians in the Raft was supposed to be used for?

[lordlad]

you guys actually forget about one thing in that the corruption of SHIELD goes deeper.........even HYDRA itself is 'taken over' by some influence as told by Madam Hydra in New Avengers.....

Some Examples.

The SHIELD rogue agents illegal vibranium deal..
Illegal Stockpiling of supervillians in RAFT. (told by Silver samurai)
Giving information to the press of Nick Fury's corruption when their not suppose to do so (The Pulse: Secret War)

The mysterious guy hiring electro to initiate the big breakout of raft...

and probably too many others...

Take not all these happen after Nick Fury went underground. Madam Hydra even said that Nick Fury knew this all along and had been keeping it clean through sheer will power.

[lordlad]

I figure it's just to highlight the fact that Fury and Hill have different approaches to the whole super-hero situation - Fury is willing to use costumed heroes to acheive his ends (Secret War, anyone?) and probably wouldn't be too keen on this whole registration business, since it takes a tool out of his toolbox.

I do wish that the "corruption in SHIELD" plotline gets picked up again in NEw Avengers after Civil War ends. It doesn't have to get wrapped up in a 6-issue mini-series or anything, but some acknowledgement that something is shady would be nice. I mean, do we even know what the Savage Land mining and the supervillians in the Raft was supposed to be used for?
bendis had said that the SHIELD plot will be an ongoing thread for New Avengers.

[The Shadow]

I agree.
Of course you would.

Just like I knew you wouldn't respond to my points.

[DDM]

I never said it was original... but the mini series you speak of is 20+ years old and was self contained until the effects were eventually felt.

The difference is this isn't just (as I said above) a neat and tidy 4 or 6 issue mini series with a start and ending, but an ongoing story across the entire Marvel Universe touching many titles over the course of several years (at this point) with the big effect being Civil War. Did the mini have that kind of an impact or was it over and forgotten about for, oh, say 20+ years?

And lets be honest... other than Alan Moore and maybe Grant Morrison, how many people are churning out truly original ideas nowadays??? EVERYTHING is influenced by the past and many stories get told and re-told and re-told AGAIN. At least this isn't something that gets done every few years.

Phoenix Endsong & Phoenix Warsong is using the 30 year old The Dark Phoenix Saga as a basis for the unoriginal story. What's the difference with SHIELD's corruption by using a 20 year old story? Nothing.

Besides I am tired of writers using aspects of goverment corruption--SHIELD--to be worse than their villain counterparts such as HYDRA. Moral relativism in comics makes for really pathetic stories.

[brundlefly]

Just like I knew you wouldn't respond to my points.

You mean in the post comparing Bendis' uninspired, reheated SHIELD corruption angle to a 'greater tapestry' of some sort? I'm sure that it will end like all his attempts at long-term stories do: petering out once he loses interest in the idea. Bendis is the one constantly going on in his interviews about comics needing "new ideas," but then he just returns to the same old ones when it's time for him to produce. A corrupted SHIELD has been done already several times before and has been done better in the past than what we've seen from him so far.



Besides I am tired of writers using aspects of goverment corruption--SHIELD--to be worse than their villain counterparts such as HYDRA. Moral relativism in comics makes for really pathetic stories.

Agreed. We're getting enough of that type of concept already in X-Men (with Xavier's retconned-in "secrets") and all of DC's moral "darkening" of their heroes (Identity Crisis, etc.). Besides, readers already expect most government organizations in comics to have a certain level of corruption in them already. SHIELD is no different.

[rogerio]

does anyone know why (deceased) Black Widow Yelena Belova was killed working to SHIELD?
she used to be a russian agent....:mad:

[The Shadow]

You mean in the post comparing Bendis' uninspired, reheated SHIELD corruption angle to a 'greater tapestry' of some sort?

No... I meant when I said:

I never said it was original... but the mini series you speak of is 20+ years old and was self contained until the effects were eventually felt.

The difference is this isn't just (as I said above) a neat and tidy 4 or 6 issue mini series with a start and ending, but an ongoing story across the entire Marvel Universe touching many titles over the course of several years (at this point) with the big effect being Civil War. Did the mini have that kind of an impact or was it over and forgotten about for, oh, say 20+ years?

And lets be honest... other than Alan Moore and maybe Grant Morrison, how many people are churning out truly original ideas nowadays??? EVERYTHING is influenced by the past and many stories get told and re-told and re-told AGAIN. At least this isn't something that gets done every few years.


I'm sure that it will end like all his attempts at long-term stories do: petering out once he loses interest in the idea.
Yeah... Daredevil and Ultimate Spidey ahve really petered out.


A corrupted SHIELD has been done already several times before and has been done better in the past than what we've seen from him so far.
Sure... but it goes back to my above quote about Moore and Morrison.

[The Shadow]

Phoenix Endsong & Phoenix Warsong is using the 30 year old The Dark Phoenix Saga as a basis for the unoriginal story. What's the difference with SHIELD's corruption by using a 20 year old story? Nothing.
The difference is Dark Phoenix has cnstantly been touched on, What if'd, retconned and used since it happened. The SHIELD story Shellhead was talking about was all but forgotten.

Also, think of the differences in the titles. Has SHIELD been corrupted before? Yes, but how many people read that verses the X-Men. To how many is this a new idea or at least an original story for?


Besides I am tired of writers using aspects of goverment corruption
... don't read stories with government involvement.

How can you profess to be an Avengers fan and yet not like Government involvement in stories?????? The government has been an integrap part of the Avengers for 20-25 YEARS.

[Expletive Deleted]

The difference is Dark Phoenix has constantly been touched on, What if'd, retconned and used since it happened.Exactly.

I have a NICK FURY VS. SHIELD trade, but I haven't seen it on store shelves in years. Those issues of X-MEN, on the other hand . . . even on top of the in-continuity references, they've been reprinted in CLASSIC X-MEN, ESSENTIAL X-MEN, UNCANNY X-MEN OMNIBUS (partially, thus far), their own DARK PHOENIX SAGA trade, cartoon and movie adaptations, and so on and so forth.

I'd be surprised if a fraction of the younger folks who hang out here had even heard of the Deltites.

[brundlefly]

And lets be honest... other than Alan Moore and maybe Grant Morrison, how many people are churning out truly original ideas nowadays??? EVERYTHING is influenced by the past and many stories get told and re-told and re-told AGAIN. At least this isn't something that gets done every few years.


A corrupted SHIELD has been done already several times before and has been done better in the past than what we've seen from him so far.


Sure... but it goes back to my above quote about Moore and Morrison.


Well, other than Moore and Morrison, very few other writers are as vocal as Bendis is about how he's supposedly "constantly reinventing himself" and "bringing new ideas to the table, instead of telling the same old stories." Yet in actual practice, he does neither of these things. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with sticking to your "comfort zone;" just don't constantly try to portray yourself as a versatile innovator when you're clearly not.

[Jmacq1]

Exactly.

I have a NICK FURY VS. SHIELD trade, but I haven't seen it on store shelves in years. Those issues of X-MEN, on the other hand . . . even on top of the in-continuity references, they've been reprinted in CLASSIC X-MEN, ESSENTIAL X-MEN, UNCANNY X-MEN OMNIBUS (partially, thus far), their own DARK PHOENIX SAGA trade, cartoon and movie adaptations, and so on and so forth.

I'd be surprised if a fraction of the younger folks who hang out here had even heard of the Deltites.

Heck, even in the rest of the Marvel Universe, SHIELD was back to "monolithic Heli-carrier bound organization" inside a couple months, when supposedly it was reduced to "Nick and a few pals" by the end of that series.

[Mariah]

Phoenix Endsong & Phoenix Warsong is using the 30 year old The Dark Phoenix Saga as a basis for the unoriginal story. What's the difference with SHIELD's corruption by using a 20 year old story? Nothing.

Besides I am tired of writers using aspects of goverment corruption--SHIELD--to be worse than their villain counterparts such as HYDRA. Moral relativism in comics makes for really pathetic stories.
It's not 30 years old, Jean died as Phoenix 26 years ago, cause the issue came out the month/year I was born. I know, cause my dad gave it to me.

[Charles RB]

Personally? I still believe Nick's final (I believe) words in "Secret War" were ultimately correct: "History will prove me right".

I dunno, that doesn't sound like the line of a character who was right - it sounds like the line of someone who screwed up royal and is probably an arsehole.

[Jake V]

I dunno, that doesn't sound like the line of a character who was right - it sounds like the line of someone who screwed up royal and is probably an arsehole.
True on both counts.

But he's still right.

[Will.S]

True on both counts.

But he's still right.
"Nick Fury was right!" t-shirts coming soon.