Did Judd Winick ruin Kyle Rayner?

[Hush Little Batman]

Recently I've been trying to read up on what's happened to Kyle Rayner since I was confused as to how he transformed from being a GL into this "Ion" character. From the best I've been able to gather, it seems that it was Judd Winick who came up with the idea for "Ion" and from what I've read about it, it seems like a crap idea (though I'll admit that I can't totally judge it as I haven't actually read the issues). Anyway I liked it when Kyle was an everyman and not someone with god-like powers. Yes, he had a ring that held incredible power, but take the ring away and he was just a normal human being whereas as Ion, it seems that Kyle himself has became omnipotent.

So my question is this - did Judd ruin Kyle by turning him into Ion? Did the character lose his everyman quality and did this change benefit or hurt Kyle's place in the DCU?

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't think so. Kyle's character wasn't truly dashed until Raab got a hold of him and ruined his personal life at the expense of several people acting out of character. Kyle as Ion could have worked. The new Corps was already on the horizon by then, so the universe would have its Green Lanterns again, and Kyle would have been special and above them all, as Marz is clarifying in Ion. However, he wasn't handled well in this position, by both Winick and Raab, but mostly Raab.

He could've worked like that, but it wasn't happening with the creative team and direction of the character between books.

[une]

I stopped reading Green Lantern when Winnick came onboard. So I'll have to say yes.

[Jack Zodiac]

That's a shame. I thought most of his stuff up until Kyle became Ion to be pretty fun, especially Alexander Nero. And he even brought back The Controllers, which never amounted to anything, but still could've had some interesting possibilities.

[annihilator]

I don't think he ruined kyle. The whole ion thing really wasn't that bad as a single story. It just showed what happens to the everyman when he is granted godlike powers. It just shouldn't have been brought back up.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Kyle was at his heart an " Everyman " who could mess up at times. But managed to pull it out and juggle all the duties of being the last Green Lantern as well as a personal life.

I blame Judd Winick for looking at Kyle Rayner and imposin that " Hal Jordan-Lite " treatment on him. And after Winick , Raab would tank the character pretty much.

[Peter M.]

I liked it when Kyle was an everyman and not someone with god-like powers. Yes, he had a ring that held incredible power, but take the ring away and he was just a normal human being whereas as Ion, it seems that Kyle himself has became omnipotent.

So my question is this - did Judd ruin Kyle by turning him into Ion? Did the character lose his everyman quality and did this change benefit or hurt Kyle's place in the DCU? No Ben Raab ruined Kyle. Winnick managed to expand and develop Kyle beyond the original parameters set by Ron Marz. It's a pity however that Winnick's run was so brief considering that the initial issues was just as good as Marz's stuff.

[Peter M.]

I blame Judd Winick for looking at Kyle Rayner and imposin that " Hal Jordan-Lite " treatment on him. Hal Jordan lite? Kyle proved that he was capable of not being corrupted by absolute power in comparison to the traitor Jordan. If anything he proved that he was far greater than hal jordan could ever be.

[Jack Zodiac]

You can't compare Ion to Parallax considering how lame and last-minute the whole Emerald Twilight decision was. There's no excusing bad writing, but that was unbelievably bad writing. Totally out of character. It's unfortunate that Kyle had to be introduced in such a way after the previous and firmly established Green Lantern was completely ruined inside of three issues.

I think Winick did a great job of making Kyle a hero, however, while Ron did the best job imaginable introducing a new character after having the last guy dragged through crap. He definitely wasn't "Hal-lite," nor did he lose his everyman status. In fact, while Winick was on the book, I though there was a much greater balance between Kyle being a working man and being a League-level hero.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Kyle Rayner was running out of steam near the end of Ron Marz's first run on the character, when he started going through the same "I'm not a rookie anymore! Now I'm a real hero! I'm a real Green Lantern" revelations over and over and over again. It felt fresh and original for the first couple years, but after GL#75 and then Morrison's use of him in JLA, the point had already been made: Kyle's not a rookie anymore. We get it.

Winnick, on the other hand, didn't treat Kyle as a rookie, but the whole Ion thing really didn't click for me and the subsequent gay bashing storyline was about as insipid as anything I've ever read. Gee, gay bashing is bad. Wow, didn't know that. How insightful. And it actually won awards? Are parts of America really so backward that this kind of material is ground-breaking and risky? And having Kyle get all huffy and leave Earth because of it didn't help his character any. Just made him look like a petulant child and painfully niave.

However, in comparison to Raab's dull as dirt run on the book, the worst of Winnick & Marz's stories look like Watchmen.

[Alan2099]

Winnick really didn't seem to have a good handle on the character and Ion, I felt was moving things in the wrong direction. I got the feeling that they were just trying to make the character not a real Green Lantern anymore since Hal was back.

And on the subject of gaybashing, would it be considered to aceptable to have a homosexual super strong character that calls himself that, Gay Basher, I mean. ... yeah. I've probably stayed up to late. I should be getting to sleep.

[Sean Whitmore]

The word "ruined" really gets tossed around way too often in regards to comic characters. "Ruined" to me means that a character is no longer viable; they've been bastardized so far beyond what made them work in the first place that they can never appear again without that stink attached to them.

Did Judd Winick write a couple of bad Kyle Rayner stories? Sure. Did Ben Raab write even more? Yep. Did either of them ruin him? No, not even close.

I'd be hard-pressed to think of any character who's ruined. Hal Jordan was kinda ruined, until Geoff Johns came along and said, "None of that stuff happened."

Stanley and his Monster might be ruined.


SEAN

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The word "ruined" really gets tossed around way too often in regards to comic characters. "Ruined" to me means that a character is no longer viable; they've been bastardized so far beyond what made them work in the first place that they can never appear again without that stink attached to them.

To my mind, "ruined" can be a temporary thing. Hal Jordan was certainly ruined for a few years. Hawkman was ruined. Superman was ruined for a lot of people. Same with Batman. Sometimes, it just takes a good creator to come around and fix things, sometimes it takes a reboot or some clever retconning. And, in the Legion's case, sometimes rebooting and retconning makes things worse.

I don't think Kyle Rayner was ever ruined. He just got really lame for a couple years.

[mattx110]

The word "ruined" really gets tossed around way too often in regards to comic characters. "Ruined" to me means that a character is no longer viable; they've been bastardized so far beyond what made them work in the first place that they can never appear again without that stink attached to them.

Did Judd Winick write a couple of bad Kyle Rayner stories? Sure. Did Ben Raab write even more? Yep. Did either of them ruin him? No, not even close.

I'd be hard-pressed to think of any character who's ruined. Hal Jordan was kinda ruined, until Geoff Johns came along and said, "None of that stuff happened."

Stanley and his Monster might be ruined.


SEAN

batman was ruined when they killed his parents. he coulda been the happy bunny-man instead of the drab black-wearing fool he is.

[Viking Bastard]

Dunno, along with Morrison, Winnick wrote the definate Rayner. Never a fan of Marz's Kyle.

Yeah, Winnick's Rayner stories got kinda lame in the end, but then, Winnick just got kinda lame overall.

[Paul Newell]

Guys, one of the things that drives us mods up the wall is diverting every Green Lantern thread into a Hal vs, Kyle argument that throws around the word "boring" a lot.

Plase get back on topic.

[Beacon]

Personally I thought that was one of the better runs for both the character and the writer. Up until that point most of the best Kyle stories were in JLA and this was one of the last times Judd gave us a good story before the overall quality of his work started slipping. That GL run is well worth reading.

[GeorgeG]

Did Winick ruin Rayner? No.

Did he do any favors for his supporting cast, i.e. Jade? No. Winick messed up with the Jade character, which affected the GL title at the time, by not taking her out of the book when he brought her into The Outsiders lineup.

Marz was hamstrung w/ Jade and didn't tell an effective story with her at all in "The Homecoming" arc. He shouldn't have been in that position. If Winick would've dealt with her before this story took place, then it probably would'nt have been the crapfest it was.

"The Homecoming" IMO showed Marz' lack of understanding of where the character was today. He created him 10 years ago, but it didn't seem he was up to date with the current character. The Jade thing was an absolute mess. But more importantly--and this was where I feel Marz didn't/doesn't grasp Kyle today--is the confrontation he had w/ Major Force.

He wouldn't have given him the ring. It's that simple. Kyle has grown as a hero and in no way would he have taken that action.

Raab's short run didn't really affect the character. Plus, if the blame game is in play, then Tomasi deserves the brunt of any blame. Raab couldn't tell the story he initially wanted to tell and since Tomasi was too concerned with the new GL title on the horizon w/ Geoff Johns & Hal Hordan, Raab's story couldn't be anything other than Star Wars-lite.

"The Homecoming" did far more damage than anything that Raab wrote.

So "blame" here goes to Marz--for the story. But I feel the actual blame goes to the editors. Tomasi hasn't done the character any favors.

The whole turning back to Ion--if the editors involved know anything about the character--is completely the opposite of what Rayner would do. He had the immense power once before. He gave it up.

Again. He gave it up.

He wouldn't take that power on once again, albeit from a different source. He wouldn't take the name once again either. Becoming Ion once again, that story was and is a complete mess. It didn't make sense when it happened and it just looks like Marz is trying to make some sense out of it right now.

I do applaud him in this regard, he's trying to fix something that he had no control over. First of all, Jade wouldn't of had that kind of power--unlike Alan Scott would. Now if he died and the power combined with Kyle, then that would've made more sense. But that's another discussion for another day.

It's not knowing the character in its present day. That's what it boils down to.

[Ontir]

Which is how someone would look at it without reading him. He was a very good character and was an artist with the ring. That was his main drawing point as a character. He could lose at times.

You never get that with Hal Jordan. Its like " He's too good " to lose . After awhile it gets boring.


I tried to read him, every few years. It was just too much. He was more bland than Ronny Raymond (which is saying something), and his use of the power ring was all gimmick, and over-blown to the point of ending the suspension of disbelief. The only time he was ever palatable was when Morrison brought him into JLA. DC shouldn't have bothered with Rayner, instead, they ought just to have made John Stewart the new GL, and been done with it. Had they done that, they'd have had a GL who could not only maintain a book; but also would've been adaptable into a feature, without bringing Hal back.

[GeorgeG]

Black characters don't sell long term. I would suggest--and it's just my opinion--that a John Stewart/GL title wouldn't have lasted as long as a Kyle Rayner/GL title did.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

DC shouldn't have bothered with Rayner, instead, they ought just to have made John Stewart the new GL, and been done with it. Had they done that, they'd have had a GL who could not only maintain a book; but also would've been adaptable into a feature, without bringing Hal back.

Stewart wouldn't have lasted. DC had made him a failure as a Green Lantern by that point and he was a Darkstar soon after. Odds are he would have lasted shorter than Kyle because John had his chance in the 80's and that didn't last long when he replaced Hal.

The impression I get from John Stewart is that he's ok in a team book like Green Lantern Corps where he has Guy Gardner and others. But alone....I don't think he can pull it.

[Hush Little Batman]

The impression I get from John Stewart is that he's ok in a team book like Green Lantern Corps where he has Guy Gardner and others. But alone....I don't think he can pull it.

Prior to JL (and JLU), I bet no one thought John Stewart was worth a damn, but as Timm and co. showed, his character held a lot of untapped potential. It really all comes down to the creative team. a good writer can take an interesting character and make them boring while a great writer can find depth in a character not previously thought to have any. I bet if Dwayne McDuffie wrote a John Stewart solo GL book, it'd be great.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I don't understand the constant criticism of Winick's GL run. I thought that his writing style actually meshed well with Rayner and was able to move the character forward in a way that Marz couldn't or was unwilling to do.

For one, Winick developed a great supporting cast. Jade, John Stewart, and Alan Scott were all integral parts of the title, as well as Hal Jordan in the Obi-Wan Kenobi ghostly mentor role. Secondly, he brought back the Guardians and recharged the central battery. Thirdly, he dropped the whole rookie aspect of the character.

As far as the criticism of the Ion storyline goes... he was Ion for, what, two issues? It was a way of getting from point A to B.

[Pól Rua]

Frankly, I believe that Hal Jordan 'ruined' Kyle Rayner.
Basically, rather than be an 'everyman', the pressure on writers was to have Kyle live up to the Green Lantern name.
Unfortunately, what this meant was that Kyle had to go from being an 'everyman' (and really, he was never a TRUE everyman, just a different stereotype) to being a square-jawed and two-dimensional superguy.
Kyle never had much in the way of character depth, and really, the stagnation had set in with his character a LONG time before Judd Winnick started working on the title.

[Kid Quick Foots]

Are parts of America really so backward that this kind of material is ground-breaking and risky?




LOL, your kidding right? have you looked around this bitch? any country that will actually consider going into the CONSTITUTION to make same sex marriage "wrong" and/or illegal should answer that question . not to mention this country voted Bush in...TWICE. no offence to all you Bush lovers......"bush lovers"lol

[Forefinger]

Personally I thought that was one of the better runs for both the character and the writer. Up until that point most of the best Kyle stories were in JLA and this was one of the last times Judd gave us a good story before the overall quality of his work started slipping. That GL run is well worth reading.
I'll agree here. I've always liked Kyle. Martz fleshed Kyle out in a way that always made him seem like more of a "real" person than Hal ever was. Winnick just took things to another level. The Ion thing was semi-entertaining, but wasn't great. He did some new stuff with Ion but eventually went back to basics with only upgrading Kyle's ring a little. I guess now I do wish that he hadn't come up with the Ion concept because maybe Kyle and Guy would still be partners in GLC rather than being in his own Ion book. As a result, I've dropped both titles. Anyway, I'll say that if anyone ruined Kyle and his book it was Raab. I ended up dropping the book during his run, and then got the last run by Martz, that sucked as well. Oh well, with comics growing more expensive all the time, I needed to drop some titles anyway.

[phantom1592]

Frankly, I believe that Hal Jordan 'ruined' Kyle Rayner.
Basically, rather than be an 'everyman', the pressure on writers was to have Kyle live up to the Green Lantern name.
Unfortunately, what this meant was that Kyle had to go from being an 'everyman' (and really, he was never a TRUE everyman, just a different stereotype) to being a square-jawed and two-dimensional superguy.
Kyle never had much in the way of character depth, and really, the stagnation had set in with his character a LONG time before Judd Winnick started working on the title.


I don't really see how that could have been avoided though. Its the same thing that would have happened with a permanent replacement for Batman, Superman, Flash etc.

Heck some of my favorite Flash stories were about Wally living in Barrys shadow. Anytime you take the name of an established hero your going to have to deal with expectations.

I think the problem was they wanted so hard to justify him, that they got away from the "new guy with the ultimate power" mold.

Personally I HATED the Ion story. I always like my characters with weaknesses. With Kyle they took away the time limit, then the yellow vulnerablity :rolleyes: Then they took away his inexperience :mad: Finally they had him stopping wars on multiple planets with a wave of his hand, while sitting on a couch on earth!:evilangry

How are we supposed to enjoy a character with NO weaknesses. Heck even Spectre doesn't do things on that scale.

[Mia]

To my mind, "ruined" can be a temporary thing. Hal Jordan was certainly ruined for a few years. Hawkman was ruined. Superman was ruined for a lot of people. Same with Batman. Sometimes, it just takes a good creator to come around and fix things, sometimes it takes a reboot or some clever retconning.



WORD..... I can't say how many characters I think need a good creator to take them on.

[TheDrizzt]

Heh. No idea can be as crappy as the story that gave rise to Rayner getting the ring in the first place.

They could have left him a GL, though. I suspect Ion will last about as long as "John Stewart, Guardian" and "Guy Gardner, Warrior" (or "Hal Jordan, Spectre") did.

[Alex L]

I think the problem was they wanted so hard to justify him, that they got away from the "new guy with the ultimate power" mold.

It was something that worked for his character, but in terms of progression would have been something they ultimately would have had to do away with -- just how long can Kyle be the 'rookie' of the JLA?

Heh. No idea can be as crappy as the story that gave rise to Rayner getting the ring in the first place.

They could have left him a GL, though. I suspect Ion will last about as long as "John Stewart, Guardian" and "Guy Gardner, Warrior" (or "Hal Jordan, Spectre") did.

Ion, sadly, is the perfect way to quietly cut back Kyle's role in the DCU.

Now, pretty much anytime they want to use a GL, they can explain Kyle's abscence by saying that he's doing something for the Guardians off-planet, or the Guardians don't want to risk Kyle in the galaxies-at-stake battle because he's the only one who has the key to resurrect the Corps if necessary.

[phantom1592]

It was something that worked for his character, but in terms of progression would have been something they ultimately would have had to do away with -- just how long can Kyle be the 'rookie' of the JLA?



ohh It could have gone on a lot longer. Considering that Hal's been around since the 60's and hasn't aged (much) that pretty much translates into Kyles whole career was only a year (maybe two) Considering he never had training (even though he was in contact with John, :rolleyes: One of the things that bugged me) He could still be learning new things the ring could do.

Like I said with Wally, He was less than Barry and insecure about the "shadow" From Crisis all the way up to "return of Barry Allen" It added something to the character.

As for being the "rookie." He really was. He was the newest guy on the team. As comfortable as he got with his powers, he'll never catch up to guys like Batman or Flash who have years ahead of him. I always liked how Others started to accept him, but he never really accepted himself. That was kind of cool.

[Alex L]

ohh It could have gone on a lot longer. Considering that Hal's been around since the 60's and hasn't aged (much) that pretty much translates into Kyles whole career was only a year (maybe two) Considering he never had training (even though he was in contact with John, :rolleyes: One of the things that bugged me) He could still be learning new things the ring could do.

In DC time, yes.

In our-world time, he's been Green Lantern for 12 years now.

At what point does he stop being the greenhorn (no pun intended) when Connor Hawke came after him, he's been through the events of One Million, Final Night, etc?

[Buried Alien]

I have a hard time thinking of the Kyle Rayner character as being "ruined" during the past few years. A decade ago, he was one of the most controversial characters in comics...hated by half the GREEN LANTERN fans. Today, Kyle has become much more widely accepted and even many of his detractors from ten years ago have been won over. Kyle seems to have become (if belatedly) one of the success stories for characters created by DC Comics during the 1990s.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)